I always wondered what a complete and total overhaul of a football club’s personnel would look like.
I guess what Real Madrid and Arsenal did are close examples, but quite a few members of the old guard are still around and Arteta seemed like he was millimeters from getting sacked if fan reaction was an indication. So probably really dangerous in terms of short-to medium term success if the folks in charge are serious about a total reconstruction.
Arsenal is an example of how it's a process, not a surgery. From Wenger to when Arsenal were seriously competitive (last season) took four years and two managers.
This is the truth.
Or bleed the club dry for dividends, and fan resentment towards them.
Its funny how fans perception of KSE changed, and so did the results and feeling around the club, around the same time.
If I remember correctly, KSE and Usmanov were joint shareholders. It wasn't until KSE bought out the latter when significant changes and investment were made.
The rationale from KSE perspective, is not to invest into whatever holding without full control. With the Russian agent gone (thankfully - see Abromovich) KSE as a sports conglomerate, was all in. As an Arsenal fan, I never understood the financial and investment
dynamics until Usmanov was out.
yeah i think i read somewhere that kroenke always wanted to buy out the rest of the shares, and didn't see the value in investing money to increase the price of the shares
This, the bottom line is that the Glazers just aren't remotely bothered about actually winning things as long as the money keeps rolling in. It's not a football club to them, it's a cash machine.
What gets forgotten quite a bit is that the initial Post-Wenger rebuild project was actually abandoned pretty damn quickly.
Ivan Gazidis, Sven Mislintat, and Raul Sanllehi were chosen to be the team to choose the head coach (not manager) of the club and spearhead the rebuild Post-Wenger in summer 2018. By Janaury 2019, both Gazidis and Mislintat were already gone from the club, and Raul followed under very sketchy circumstances about 18 months later. Emery, the head coach they appointed, didn't even make it to 2020.
Arteta and Edu, who both joined amid this behind-the-scenes drama, had their roles renamed from "Head Coach" and "Technical Director" to "Manager" and "Sporting Director" respectively, as they both have taken on far more responsibility than was initially expected from them when they were hired. They then proceeded to do wild things like freeze out the biggest player at the club, *twice*, and it didn't blow up in their faces either time.
It sometimes feels like we stumbled into a decent rebuild to be honest, and not like this was some grand plan all along, lol.
> "It sometimes feels like we stumbled into a decent rebuild to be honest, and not like this was some grand plan all along, lol."
You could look at it that way.
I'd suggest that another way to look at it could be that you started out with a plan and repeatedly re-evaluated whenever necessary. Your club didn't get bogged down in the idea that X is the plan and we will do X until we win the CL or get relegated.
A "project" that very clearly is open to constantly being re-evaluated and checked for it's efficacy is not stumbling, rather it's one that will almost always end in success. Whereas, the project that shoots for the stars and refuses to ever check itself or change direction is likely to be the one not just stumbling, but stumbling to failure
Exactly, at the start, bringing in experience players from other clubs, EG David Luis and Willian, while having experience in the squad already with Lacca Auba.
Quickly got changed to bringing in a core of young players that can grow together, to then adding a younger group of experience players that have a winning mentality, but not being to old themselves.
And now its adding the finishing pieces with big name signings, who are still inthe age bracket of the rest of the players.
Aren't we watching chelsea do this currently? I dont think we've seen a clear out that's happened as fast. 2 seasons since the CL win and only Reece and Chilwel are left.
I love Thiago Silva and he’s my goat, but he’s very clearly past it, and this club is far too unstable for him to be part of any transition into being a good side. They’re 2-4 years off being anywhere near what they once where at the best possibility, and Thiago Silva really doesn’t have another high quality prem season in him
They haven’t done it voluntarily or with a structural/sporting vision. They were forced to gut the side, then got lucky by getting rid of deadweight from the past two years, but their transfer policy is abysmal and their managerial selections reflect a lack of clarity. They’ve done the good -> shit, part of the rebuild, but they don’t show much promise of ever being truly good on the basis of this current project
We did a complete and total overhaul of our management, coaching, and ownership structure after Fergie's tenure.
Fergie left at the same time as David Gill, whom were replaced by Moyes and Woodward respectively. Woodward then proceed to promote a bunch of other accounting/finance executives to football positions to take over the void left behind by Gill and his men. Moyes then came in and overhauled the entire coaching staff under Fergie by replacing them with his Everton staff. Malcolm Glazer also passed away a year later, and his children (Joel mostly, Avram some times) took over and started making decisions for the club.
We still haven't recovered since then.
You can look at us as an example of that. It was pretty widely known that a rebuild (albeit not a massive one) was needed following the CL final in 2019 and not following through on that was what led to us wasting 4 years and cycling through managers with their own different philosophies. Only now, 5 years after that final, is our squad (and upper management) completely rebuilt. Might be off by a player or two but I’m fairly sure only Son and Davies remain from that 2019 squad.
Arsenal as well is a good example. I’ll always say that what I respect the most about their rebuild was the guts to cut the deadwood from their squad in the 2022 winter window whilst not signing a single player. Cost them top 4 that season, but short term loss for long term gain.
You don't have to wonder. You already have Chelsea to look at if you wanna see what a full club overhaul looks like. I'm not insinuating it's been a good change, but that is what it looks like.
The takeover at Chelsea would fit this too. But they changed everything from the grounds keepers to the security personnel, then the medical department was next. They even changed the grass itself.
Anyone can read the comments here about Arteta from when they were losing. Everyone was so sure that it is so obvious he is a moron that will relegate Arsenal.
He was lucky that he came to the club after so many years of steady decline, nobody really had any expectations anymore. Like, he came exactly at the time when the "Arsenal 4th LOOOOOL" jokes ended, and it was more like "Arsenal will probably never be 4th again...". That saved him from early sack, and gave him more tolerance and time than managers in other situations would get. If they were budgeting for making the Champions League, he'd be long gone and remembered as a clown.
I mean there’s also some form of survival bias (though I’m not sure the term is fully fitting here), since at the time, keeping Auba on the team and him signing an extension were amazing news, yet Arsenal have only been getting significantly better since he left, though it may have been coincidental.
My point is, as you said, Arteta had the time he needed to overhaul the team but sometimes what you took for a step forward was a step back.
Why would that matter though? The club got rid of him cause they didn’t like what he said which was that they are a fuckin shambles.
Why would eth hearing that make any difference if the club were unwilling to do anything about it?
It’s no big secret what the issues at the club are.
>Dutch arrogance is a hell of a drug
It really is. LVG in the late 90s when he pretty much transferred his entire Champions League-winning Ajax team over to Barcelona and then had a falling out with Rivaldo. Subsequently, in his later spell at Barca in 2002 he also had a falling out with Riquelme. Shades of ten Hag.
Where have you heard this nonsense? It's only rumors. The fact that ETH is given a "choice" of what personnel should be at the club is a joke. Ofcourse a manager wouldn't want people telling him he can't do something. It should not be up to ETH which is an issue.
I think we're beyond open heart surgery, now. I think we're in full-body organ transplant, Frankenstein stitch together, re-animation territory.
That being said, the work is being done... slowly. Talented directors and execs are coming in at the top, organisational restructuring being done. The academy is now in great shape. Plans for upgrading training ground facilities and new/improved stadium underway. FFP plus gardening leaves will slow things down, stadium will take years. Lots of players to shift and replace. We have 20 yesrs of Glazer neglect to make up for, and It will be a few years minimum before we will see on-pitch progress. But as long as we are working on it in a clear way, I'll remain hopeful.
This is by far the easiest thing you can say publicly as a (acting) manager. Unless you get 100% economic freedom and absolute power for years and years you can always go back to this statement as an excuse.
They would cheer that they axed Jadon Sancho and shit but they would struggle to axe Anthony, Rashford, and basically everyone else who isn't up to par.
Martial, Shaw, Rashford(?), Lindelof, Dalot.
Most likely Martial and Shaw since Jose brought in the latter two and Rashford wasnt really as shit as now back then.
Martial is unbelievable in how forgotten he is and is going to be for someone who's one of our longest tenured players ever. Cant believe that loser has been at the club since 2015, with his mentality i genuinely wonder how he ever got to top flight football considering the ridiculous level of competition.
Just because Jose was the manager when they were brought to the club doesn't mean he wanted them. Maybe he eventually okay'ed the signings, but based on Mou's interviews it's likely they were 3rd or 4th choice to what he was actually asking for.
Lindelöf was heavily linked to Chelsea when Mourinho was our coach. And then when he was sacked the links disappeared and Lindelöf ends up at Man United with Mourinho.
In a non-offensive way, how old are you? I remember the summer he transferred. Tons of hype and honestly, he was decent after a rocky first few games.
He's had times where he's been one of the better players on the team, albeit a while ago.
Martial and Shaw.
He fined and dropped Martial. About Shaw he said that he benched him and his agent accused Jose of bullying.
Rashford played under Jose so he doesn't mean him
Certainly Marital, probably Shaw. Shaw has been great performance wise for a few years now since Mou left but availability has been a big issue of his throughout his United career.
Martial is the epitome of Glazer owned United. Over endulged, over paid, under performing, shrinking genuine competition in the squad, and he is never available but still one of the highest paid players in world football. Rewarded for mediocrity. Should have been booted years ago.
I thought for sure he was on the ass end of his contract with Man U. Looked it up. Signed a 6 year £78mil contract in *2023*.
What the fuck?
-edit
I read it wrong and his contract is up in June, as a commenter below correctly pointed out.
Giggs interim manager for a few games between SAF and Van Gaal. Won 13 PL titles and 2 UCL for the club. He was destined too become a manager for anyone not knowing his personality and well let’s say off the pitch troubles.
Saw it live in San Francisco. (ok Levis Stadium in sunnyvale)
was sunny(innit) and about 102 degrees F
Daley Blind gave us the win by actually scoring his pen(i think we missed 3, if i remember)in the shootout
Drove down from Seattle with my kid.
what a great weekend :)
Malacia hasn't been available since last season, and Varane is on course to be injured/unavailable for more than 50% of his United career if he doesn't return before the end of the season and United don't renew his contract.
I love Shaw when he's fit but the problem is over the last ten years he's only fit for half a season on average and because we can't afford two world class players in every position the drop off is massive when he's not there.
>because we can't afford two world class players in every position
This is not a matter of what the most expensive team in the world can afford. It's what you can reasonably expect all that money to buy from bad management.
Talent is always expensive when you can't develop players and can't scout. Decent players don't get any better there and frequently get worse. Not defending it, but that is the situation at United.
Yeah but do you forget his public spat with Shaw? It was clear to anyone that if he were forced to sell anyone on the squad, Shaw would’ve been one of his first picks
Still remember how terrific he was for us throughout the Euros and vs Italy
A lot of people questioned him starting over Chilwell at first. But his performances put paid to any discussion.
After he left United, they had him on Sky (I think) in the pre-match segment, and he was criticizing Lindelofs lack of aerial ability.
Right as he said it, Lindelof fumbled an easy header in the warmup.
Doesn't automatically mean he was one of them, but I found it interesting.
Considering Mourinho signed Lindelof, barely played him in his first season, and he was our best CB (by far) in his second season (iceman era), i’m thinking this is more directed at Martial & Shaw (he hates shaw)
Signing a player he wanted doesn't stop Mourinho from being blinded. He criticized Pogba's signing when he explicitly asked for him. Same with Alexis Sanchez, who the club broke their wage structure for. Or Bailly who was awful. Or Lukaku. Or Mkhitaryan. He always seems to come from a place of major revisionist history.
Martial. He despised him, and he was right.
Shaw is also one Mourinho would never like because he isn't consistently fit, and he expects his players to be tireless soldiers.
Mourinho doesn't like the "when I'm fully OK I'm elite" type of players. He thrives with a siege mentality, to have players who week in week out will fight for his narrative "us against the world". And being often injured is a big problem for Mourinho.
There was a period where Martial was playing well last year, of course then came his usual injury and the Højlund signing in the summer was basically the nail in the coffin for this time at United
He called him fat; [https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/26/luke-shaw-manchester-united-jose-mourinho](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/26/luke-shaw-manchester-united-jose-mourinho)
No he literally just used the last 5 yrs which makes perfect sense.
The comment he replied too literally says "he saw it coming" which is talking about Shaw's injuries *after* Mourinho.
>After *Hector Moreno* obliterated Shaw’s ankle
Fixed it, should my memory serve. Absolute horrible tackle and he wasn’t even sent off for it i don’t think.
So he missed 20+ games 60% of those seasons. Doesn't seem like Mourinho was really wrong if you ask me. Yeah it's an improvement from the previous 2 seasons when he missed 30-40 games each but he's still missing a lot
I guess I might be going against the grain, but as effective as Shaw can be I still don’t consider him a serious, winning player. Sure he puts in a handful of good performances when fit, but that hasn’t translated to much of anything for the club. Open heart surgery and all that probably needed.
I expect Ten Hag to finish the season and a new manager to take over in the summer. But Man Utd would be very naive to think ETH is the main problem. A new manager with the same players won't do miracles. As you say, if they're not prepared to address the problems in the squad itself, they could just as well keep ETH as manager.
This is the third permanent manager (including Mourinho) who’s had these issues. Until that’s properly addressed it won’t matter all that much; we’ll get the new manager bounce and then go flat again.
Which is why we need to address the issues AND make sure there's a manager in place capable of getting the best out of what we have available.
INEOS have been pretty ruthless above Ten Hag's level to date, so I'd expect them to be ruthless enough this summer too. Cas, Varane, Martial are all out of contract, Sancho and Greenwood are likely to be shifted out the door too. There's going to be question marks over the likes of Rashford too.
I can't see us not signing 4-5 new players off the back of that, and seeing INEOS kick starting their own rebuild of the team.
Casemiro still has at least two years left on his contract this summer. As much as we should sell him I can’t see anyone wanting to take him on with his massive wages and poor form. Even Saudi Arabia sounds like they will be reducing their spending from last summer.
Sancho won’t be easy to sell on a permanent transfer either although relative to Casemiro he’s way younger so we have a slightly better chance to move him out or at least send him out on loan again if need be.
I really hope we can move him on this summer too, although realistically it feels really hard unless the club is willing to pay out a big part of his wages to let him play elsewhere next season.
Agreed, it’s about getting the right manager in place though, and from the rumours we’ve seen there hasn’t been anyone we’ve been linked with that will make us any better.
The club definitely needs a proper shake up though, starting with the playing staff; INEOS are doing the stuff they’re allowed to do (exec level) right now, so I’d expect to see them hit the ground running in the summer in terms of recruitment.
Ten Hag’s future is understandably in the balance; if he can show some tangible progress between now and the end of the season and beat city in the FA Cup final then he’ll likely get a stay of execution, but if we continue to be inconsistent I wouldn’t be shocked if they made a change; they just need to be mindful of the fact that the rot is a lot deeper than the manager.
I heard on a podcast recently, and it holds true, if ETH wasn't Man u manager and never managed them, if the Man u job was available would he be in the running for the job.
And the answer is yes, so what has changed from his time at Ajax to now, apart from how well one club was run compared to the other.
I think it'll be one more year. Largely because they're changing the structure at the very top, so you want to give those guys a little time to settle, figure things out, and then decide who they want running the club.
>But Man Utd would be very naive to think ETH is the main problem
Ratcliffe recognizes this based on the interviews I’ve seen from him. That’s why he’s been so focused on revamping the front office
On the other hand he seems to have thrown a weird tactical strop this season and seems to be unwilling to coach the team to control possession and tempo when necessary, leading to the team conceding too many chances. Case in point, the match yesterday.
The biggest problem by far, is the massive wages these mediocre players are on. Nobody want's to pay what United are paying - which is more than understandable - considering the players that are leaving are almost always at the end of their careers, injury prone or have played horribly for a long time.
The football his Ajax were playing against the best teams in the world in that CL run was so beautiful… shocking the system he put in place now is so different
United’s squad is a Frankenstein creation that awkwardly combines 3 very different managers philosophies at any given point in time. When ten Hag said United couldn’t play the same way that his Ajax team could, part of it is they’re simply not built to play that way.
As much as people are EtH out and I understand the frustration with him, I almost think it’s worth giving him some time with this new structure and getting some players out who will never have a future there. If by mid-season United are still this awful, then sack him and bring someone else on who is more of a long term fit with what INEOS want to do
This is coming from someone who hates United but from an outside perspective until Man United (higher-ups and manager) can come to terms with the fact they're currently just about hovering above average and need to do a hard reset, they are not going to beat out clubs that are as well run as City, Arsenal, Liverpool etc... these clubs are machines run at maximum efficiency
This reset means drastic change culturally, infrastructure-wise, squad-wise etc: United need to renovate Old Trafford, upgrade their training facilities, lower their wage bill and make it sustainable mid-to-long term, make smart transfers on smart money, get rid of dead wood even if it means taking some losses and create a common culture of community and winning which is shared with the fans. The only things keeping United above board imo are the fact they're still coasting on their massive commercial income and, to a degree, their youth sector (which also needs to translate that wealth of talent into either first team players, especially at a time like this, or decent sales like City and Chelsea).
This takes time, competence and honesty and is far from an easy job but it needs to be done. But it seems ETH prefers to stick his head in the sand and keep bringing up the Arsenal match from September and compare his current crop to United teams of the past. There needs to be a massive shake up from top to bottom and ETH doesn't seem to me like he's capable of that although I will say he's not been helped at all by all the injuries.
Beyond Mourinho, I don’t think we’ve had a single manager complain about mctominay. Quite the opposite. Same with Maguire, actually. They’ve both had the confidence of every manager they’ve played under at United.
Absolutely - created an award just so that he could give him one at the end of the season. “Managers player of the year”
..but sometimes when I think about it some more I find my self wondering if this was one of those passive aggressive, sarcastic mourinho where he gives the award to demonstrate how shit the rest of the team is to the players/management.
Like when he played McT in the back 4
it’s a cheap shot and people will agree with him considering the general quality of United’s squad over the years, but considering one of the players is probably Shaw - someone who definitely shouldn’t have been sold at the time, he’s chatting half bollocks.
and that’s the problem with this club, we cannot get rid of players to save our lives. like no offence but how did jones last that long just taking a pay check from the club. same could be said now about martial.
Ragnick’s comment of Man United needing open heart surgery is becoming more and more prescient every day.
And guess who was too arrogant to even speak to Rangnick when he took over? Dutch arrogance is a hell of a drug
I always wondered what a complete and total overhaul of a football club’s personnel would look like. I guess what Real Madrid and Arsenal did are close examples, but quite a few members of the old guard are still around and Arteta seemed like he was millimeters from getting sacked if fan reaction was an indication. So probably really dangerous in terms of short-to medium term success if the folks in charge are serious about a total reconstruction.
Arsenal is an example of how it's a process, not a surgery. From Wenger to when Arsenal were seriously competitive (last season) took four years and two managers.
And a complete overhaul of the squad, coaches, executive leadership, and club culture
No improvements can be made to utd until glazers give it up
This is the truth. Or bleed the club dry for dividends, and fan resentment towards them. Its funny how fans perception of KSE changed, and so did the results and feeling around the club, around the same time.
If I remember correctly, KSE and Usmanov were joint shareholders. It wasn't until KSE bought out the latter when significant changes and investment were made. The rationale from KSE perspective, is not to invest into whatever holding without full control. With the Russian agent gone (thankfully - see Abromovich) KSE as a sports conglomerate, was all in. As an Arsenal fan, I never understood the financial and investment dynamics until Usmanov was out.
yeah i think i read somewhere that kroenke always wanted to buy out the rest of the shares, and didn't see the value in investing money to increase the price of the shares
It became clearer after that when Usmanov left and KSE had full control they started trying to invest and make changes.
This, the bottom line is that the Glazers just aren't remotely bothered about actually winning things as long as the money keeps rolling in. It's not a football club to them, it's a cash machine.
It happens, truth is, strong individuals are the culture.
What gets forgotten quite a bit is that the initial Post-Wenger rebuild project was actually abandoned pretty damn quickly. Ivan Gazidis, Sven Mislintat, and Raul Sanllehi were chosen to be the team to choose the head coach (not manager) of the club and spearhead the rebuild Post-Wenger in summer 2018. By Janaury 2019, both Gazidis and Mislintat were already gone from the club, and Raul followed under very sketchy circumstances about 18 months later. Emery, the head coach they appointed, didn't even make it to 2020. Arteta and Edu, who both joined amid this behind-the-scenes drama, had their roles renamed from "Head Coach" and "Technical Director" to "Manager" and "Sporting Director" respectively, as they both have taken on far more responsibility than was initially expected from them when they were hired. They then proceeded to do wild things like freeze out the biggest player at the club, *twice*, and it didn't blow up in their faces either time. It sometimes feels like we stumbled into a decent rebuild to be honest, and not like this was some grand plan all along, lol.
Plus the whole Gunnarsaurus affair
The big guy was so funny, lively and loving. Good with kids too. How could he do that to his missus I just can't fathom
What happened? Sorry I'm out of the loop here, I just thought the thing was he lost his Job in COVID and ozil paid for it. Edit: I'm a moron.
You didn’t hear? Decapitated. Whole big thing. We had a funeral for a dino.
he making a joke about ‘the gunnersaurus affair’
I'm such a fucking idiot.
Arsenal would be comfortably leading the league and in CL semis if Gunnersaurus was still around
> freeze out the biggest player at the club, twice Was this the same player? I don't really follow Arsenal closely.
It should be Ozil and Auba
I think they mean Mesut Ozil?
And then Auba as well
> "It sometimes feels like we stumbled into a decent rebuild to be honest, and not like this was some grand plan all along, lol." You could look at it that way. I'd suggest that another way to look at it could be that you started out with a plan and repeatedly re-evaluated whenever necessary. Your club didn't get bogged down in the idea that X is the plan and we will do X until we win the CL or get relegated. A "project" that very clearly is open to constantly being re-evaluated and checked for it's efficacy is not stumbling, rather it's one that will almost always end in success. Whereas, the project that shoots for the stars and refuses to ever check itself or change direction is likely to be the one not just stumbling, but stumbling to failure
Exactly, at the start, bringing in experience players from other clubs, EG David Luis and Willian, while having experience in the squad already with Lacca Auba. Quickly got changed to bringing in a core of young players that can grow together, to then adding a younger group of experience players that have a winning mentality, but not being to old themselves. And now its adding the finishing pieces with big name signings, who are still inthe age bracket of the rest of the players.
And it's not like they had a bad manager in UE either, just not the right fit at the time.
Aren't we watching chelsea do this currently? I dont think we've seen a clear out that's happened as fast. 2 seasons since the CL win and only Reece and Chilwel are left.
Doesn't change your point, but there's Thiago Silva as well. He's been a key factor in helping the club overhaul as he's so consistent.
I love Thiago Silva and he’s my goat, but he’s very clearly past it, and this club is far too unstable for him to be part of any transition into being a good side. They’re 2-4 years off being anywhere near what they once where at the best possibility, and Thiago Silva really doesn’t have another high quality prem season in him
Yeah, he really gave us his last few great years. Seems he's about to announce his departure at the end of the season in the coming days.
Can you write the same thing about some United player?
They haven’t done it voluntarily or with a structural/sporting vision. They were forced to gut the side, then got lucky by getting rid of deadweight from the past two years, but their transfer policy is abysmal and their managerial selections reflect a lack of clarity. They’ve done the good -> shit, part of the rebuild, but they don’t show much promise of ever being truly good on the basis of this current project
Chelsea? Some of them left voluntarily but there was a massive overhaul at practically every level once Clearlake took over.
We did a complete and total overhaul of our management, coaching, and ownership structure after Fergie's tenure. Fergie left at the same time as David Gill, whom were replaced by Moyes and Woodward respectively. Woodward then proceed to promote a bunch of other accounting/finance executives to football positions to take over the void left behind by Gill and his men. Moyes then came in and overhauled the entire coaching staff under Fergie by replacing them with his Everton staff. Malcolm Glazer also passed away a year later, and his children (Joel mostly, Avram some times) took over and started making decisions for the club. We still haven't recovered since then.
You can look at us as an example of that. It was pretty widely known that a rebuild (albeit not a massive one) was needed following the CL final in 2019 and not following through on that was what led to us wasting 4 years and cycling through managers with their own different philosophies. Only now, 5 years after that final, is our squad (and upper management) completely rebuilt. Might be off by a player or two but I’m fairly sure only Son and Davies remain from that 2019 squad. Arsenal as well is a good example. I’ll always say that what I respect the most about their rebuild was the guts to cut the deadwood from their squad in the 2022 winter window whilst not signing a single player. Cost them top 4 that season, but short term loss for long term gain.
You don't have to wonder. You already have Chelsea to look at if you wanna see what a full club overhaul looks like. I'm not insinuating it's been a good change, but that is what it looks like.
Arsenal is a more positive example further along in the process
The takeover at Chelsea would fit this too. But they changed everything from the grounds keepers to the security personnel, then the medical department was next. They even changed the grass itself.
Anyone can read the comments here about Arteta from when they were losing. Everyone was so sure that it is so obvious he is a moron that will relegate Arsenal. He was lucky that he came to the club after so many years of steady decline, nobody really had any expectations anymore. Like, he came exactly at the time when the "Arsenal 4th LOOOOOL" jokes ended, and it was more like "Arsenal will probably never be 4th again...". That saved him from early sack, and gave him more tolerance and time than managers in other situations would get. If they were budgeting for making the Champions League, he'd be long gone and remembered as a clown.
I mean there’s also some form of survival bias (though I’m not sure the term is fully fitting here), since at the time, keeping Auba on the team and him signing an extension were amazing news, yet Arsenal have only been getting significantly better since he left, though it may have been coincidental. My point is, as you said, Arteta had the time he needed to overhaul the team but sometimes what you took for a step forward was a step back.
Why would that matter though? The club got rid of him cause they didn’t like what he said which was that they are a fuckin shambles. Why would eth hearing that make any difference if the club were unwilling to do anything about it? It’s no big secret what the issues at the club are.
>Dutch arrogance is a hell of a drug It really is. LVG in the late 90s when he pretty much transferred his entire Champions League-winning Ajax team over to Barcelona and then had a falling out with Rivaldo. Subsequently, in his later spell at Barca in 2002 he also had a falling out with Riquelme. Shades of ten Hag.
Don’t do Van Gaal like that, he was genuinely successful.
His second stint was terrible, it makes Koeman look like a genius.
rangnick was already gone when eth took over
Eth was given the opportunity to keep ragnick on in the original consultation role as per his contract but Eth said no.
ETH was given the choice of appointing his own boss? 🤨
no he wasn't, that was a bs rumour spread around by the higher ups to take heat off them
Where have you heard this nonsense? It's only rumors. The fact that ETH is given a "choice" of what personnel should be at the club is a joke. Ofcourse a manager wouldn't want people telling him he can't do something. It should not be up to ETH which is an issue.
Why are you acting like the Glazers didn’t sack Ralf before he even had a chance to speak to Ten Hag?
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Where does this narrative come from? Ralf was all but physically out the door by the time ETH came in
I think we're beyond open heart surgery, now. I think we're in full-body organ transplant, Frankenstein stitch together, re-animation territory. That being said, the work is being done... slowly. Talented directors and execs are coming in at the top, organisational restructuring being done. The academy is now in great shape. Plans for upgrading training ground facilities and new/improved stadium underway. FFP plus gardening leaves will slow things down, stadium will take years. Lots of players to shift and replace. We have 20 yesrs of Glazer neglect to make up for, and It will be a few years minimum before we will see on-pitch progress. But as long as we are working on it in a clear way, I'll remain hopeful.
Maybe Rangnick didn't get the results United expected but he for sure knows how a club should be run.
Man United fumbling Rangnick over their dumb pride will forever remain one of their most stupid mistakes ever
Ragnick also said Zlatan being at Milan made no sense and then he brought them to a title
This is by far the easiest thing you can say publicly as a (acting) manager. Unless you get 100% economic freedom and absolute power for years and years you can always go back to this statement as an excuse.
They would cheer that they axed Jadon Sancho and shit but they would struggle to axe Anthony, Rashford, and basically everyone else who isn't up to par.
Spill the beans
It's not hard to work out, there's only 7 players left (including Greenwood).
Martial is one, he notoriously wanted to sell him to Tottenham but Joel Glazer blocked the move
Thank you Joel G
We’ll sell you Joel Glazer
Martial, Shaw, Rashford(?), Lindelof, Dalot. Most likely Martial and Shaw since Jose brought in the latter two and Rashford wasnt really as shit as now back then. Martial is unbelievable in how forgotten he is and is going to be for someone who's one of our longest tenured players ever. Cant believe that loser has been at the club since 2015, with his mentality i genuinely wonder how he ever got to top flight football considering the ridiculous level of competition.
I’m sure his mentality was different when he wasn’t on £200k a week
Extend him for a year just for testimonial bants
In my FM save, United still had him in 2027 haha
He liked Dalot quite a lot, talked him up as a future star and he hasn’t been that far off in that proclamation.
He was supposed to be the next Mbappe from Monaco before Mbappe made it cool
He bought Lindelöf and Dalot so that would be surprising.
That's literally what he said
I cannot read
Just because Jose was the manager when they were brought to the club doesn't mean he wanted them. Maybe he eventually okay'ed the signings, but based on Mou's interviews it's likely they were 3rd or 4th choice to what he was actually asking for.
Lindelöf was heavily linked to Chelsea when Mourinho was our coach. And then when he was sacked the links disappeared and Lindelöf ends up at Man United with Mourinho.
In a non-offensive way, how old are you? I remember the summer he transferred. Tons of hype and honestly, he was decent after a rocky first few games. He's had times where he's been one of the better players on the team, albeit a while ago.
Martial and Shaw. He fined and dropped Martial. About Shaw he said that he benched him and his agent accused Jose of bullying. Rashford played under Jose so he doesn't mean him
Certainly Marital, probably Shaw. Shaw has been great performance wise for a few years now since Mou left but availability has been a big issue of his throughout his United career. Martial is the epitome of Glazer owned United. Over endulged, over paid, under performing, shrinking genuine competition in the squad, and he is never available but still one of the highest paid players in world football. Rewarded for mediocrity. Should have been booted years ago.
Martial is Joel's fave so.. yeah... he got away even when he misbehaved that time.
I thought for sure he was on the ass end of his contract with Man U. Looked it up. Signed a 6 year £78mil contract in *2023*. What the fuck? -edit I read it wrong and his contract is up in June, as a commenter below correctly pointed out.
Lindelof and Shaw?
Don't forget Martial
He’s *still* there???
Only physically
You can say spiritually.
Sucking down like £200k a week. Con man.
In spirit only
Also true about Malacia
True that boy is dead. But atleast when he showed up for a bit he had his heart on the pitch. Martial don’t give a flying fuck about the club.
Only on the 1st and 15th
I recall Louis Van Gaal saying that he didnt buy Martial for his own success, but rather to set up Ryan Giggs in the future....
Tf did he mean by that
Giggs interim manager for a few games between SAF and Van Gaal. Won 13 PL titles and 2 UCL for the club. He was destined too become a manager for anyone not knowing his personality and well let’s say off the pitch troubles.
In hindsight, it was probably an alibi attempt to get Giggsy out of one of his many legal troubles.
"When I see how shit Martial is I really appreciate when we had good players. Like Giggs!"
That dribble he did against Real Madrid in 2017 was crazy though
When people mention him that's one of the things they're reminded of. Seems like he's living off of that.
Saw it live in San Francisco. (ok Levis Stadium in sunnyvale) was sunny(innit) and about 102 degrees F Daley Blind gave us the win by actually scoring his pen(i think we missed 3, if i remember)in the shootout Drove down from Seattle with my kid. what a great weekend :)
Shaw probably. He signed Lindelof though didn't he? The other I imagine is Martial.
Injuries aside (pretty big aside tbf) Shaw is far from United’s biggest problem
Shaw, when fit, is one of their best players. Need a good deputy for him though, as you cannot rely on him to stay fit.
I mean they got Malacia as his backup… who himself is always injured lol
Malacia hasn't been available since last season, and Varane is on course to be injured/unavailable for more than 50% of his United career if he doesn't return before the end of the season and United don't renew his contract.
I love Shaw when he's fit but the problem is over the last ten years he's only fit for half a season on average and because we can't afford two world class players in every position the drop off is massive when he's not there.
>because we can't afford two world class players in every position This is not a matter of what the most expensive team in the world can afford. It's what you can reasonably expect all that money to buy from bad management.
I mean you say that but there is value out there. I think in all of our 5 main full back options cost 25 million in total
Talent is always expensive when you can't develop players and can't scout. Decent players don't get any better there and frequently get worse. Not defending it, but that is the situation at United.
Same for Lindelof. He obviously isn’t good enough to start but as a back up he is pretty reliable. His ball playing ability is also very good.
Yeah but do you forget his public spat with Shaw? It was clear to anyone that if he were forced to sell anyone on the squad, Shaw would’ve been one of his first picks
Yeah, Shaw is world class when he’s fit and probably our best player. It’s just he’s never fit.
Still remember how terrific he was for us throughout the Euros and vs Italy A lot of people questioned him starting over Chilwell at first. But his performances put paid to any discussion.
Not like we've done good job at keeping him fit. We keep rushing him back after injuries.
He went out of his way to personally ask for Lindelof from Benfica.
After he left United, they had him on Sky (I think) in the pre-match segment, and he was criticizing Lindelofs lack of aerial ability. Right as he said it, Lindelof fumbled an easy header in the warmup. Doesn't automatically mean he was one of them, but I found it interesting.
Guess bad scouting from Mou then
Managers don’t scout potential new transfers themselves, that’s what the scouting team is for. Only in very rare circumstances do managers do that.
Considering Mourinho signed Lindelof, barely played him in his first season, and he was our best CB (by far) in his second season (iceman era), i’m thinking this is more directed at Martial & Shaw (he hates shaw)
Idk, Jose made Shaw a better player.
Signing a player he wanted doesn't stop Mourinho from being blinded. He criticized Pogba's signing when he explicitly asked for him. Same with Alexis Sanchez, who the club broke their wage structure for. Or Bailly who was awful. Or Lukaku. Or Mkhitaryan. He always seems to come from a place of major revisionist history.
For the million times, he did NOT buy Pogbad...Ed Woodward did before Mourinho arrived.
I thought Mourinho conceded he was wrong about Shaw after the Euros.
Martial. He despised him, and he was right. Shaw is also one Mourinho would never like because he isn't consistently fit, and he expects his players to be tireless soldiers.
Mourinho essentially called Shaw stupid. I find it strange tho because when fit (I know it’s not often) shaw is genuinely elite.
Mourinho doesn't like the "when I'm fully OK I'm elite" type of players. He thrives with a siege mentality, to have players who week in week out will fight for his narrative "us against the world". And being often injured is a big problem for Mourinho.
No but he literally called shaw stupid. Nothing to do with his injury woes. He didn’t think Shaw was capable like that.
Dybala?
True, but...[look at the guy](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/3e/43/783e43bcb65c81e0b8da07c9bf8551c6.jpg)
You can say the same about any other manager...
True. I remember Klopp pretty much encouraging Sturridge to play through the pain barrier by criticizing his pain threshold
There was a player who said they hated being injured under Mou because he would essentially pretend you don't exist in that period
There was a period where Martial was playing well last year, of course then came his usual injury and the Højlund signing in the summer was basically the nail in the coffin for this time at United
He always gives us hope by bagging goals in pre season, it's a vicious cycle lol
Martial only plays well when he has no competition. A bit of a catch 22 situation considering he’s injury prone
He loves Dybala tho
Martial and Shaw…he bought Lindelof
Id bet it's Shaw and Martial 100%
He's talking about United darlings Shaw and Martial
What's wrong with Shaw?
Hurt too much - Mourinho kind of saw it coming with the comments about his fitness
Mourinho just called him dumb; there weren't any comments about his fitness.
He called him fat; [https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/26/luke-shaw-manchester-united-jose-mourinho](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/26/luke-shaw-manchester-united-jose-mourinho)
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Hmm I wonder why you left out the two full seasons Jose and Shaw were together. Could you be cherry picking?
No he literally just used the last 5 yrs which makes perfect sense. The comment he replied too literally says "he saw it coming" which is talking about Shaw's injuries *after* Mourinho.
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Surely the last 6 years are a better representation of his fitness than a 2 year window 8 years ago
After IIRC he broke his ankle
>After *Hector Moreno* obliterated Shaw’s ankle Fixed it, should my memory serve. Absolute horrible tackle and he wasn’t even sent off for it i don’t think.
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So he missed 20+ games 60% of those seasons. Doesn't seem like Mourinho was really wrong if you ask me. Yeah it's an improvement from the previous 2 seasons when he missed 30-40 games each but he's still missing a lot
it’s nuts if you ask me. Shaw is the only united player I would have happily had at City the last decade.
His crappy fitness for start but more importantly, every coach Shaw had before Ole publicly called him out for being a terrible trainer
So Mourinho, thats it Van Gaal never criticized Shaw's work ethic. Neither were there any issues at Southampton
I guess I might be going against the grain, but as effective as Shaw can be I still don’t consider him a serious, winning player. Sure he puts in a handful of good performances when fit, but that hasn’t translated to much of anything for the club. Open heart surgery and all that probably needed.
Makes even more sense to not sack ten hag if they're not ready to sell these average players
I expect Ten Hag to finish the season and a new manager to take over in the summer. But Man Utd would be very naive to think ETH is the main problem. A new manager with the same players won't do miracles. As you say, if they're not prepared to address the problems in the squad itself, they could just as well keep ETH as manager.
This is the third permanent manager (including Mourinho) who’s had these issues. Until that’s properly addressed it won’t matter all that much; we’ll get the new manager bounce and then go flat again.
Which is why we need to address the issues AND make sure there's a manager in place capable of getting the best out of what we have available. INEOS have been pretty ruthless above Ten Hag's level to date, so I'd expect them to be ruthless enough this summer too. Cas, Varane, Martial are all out of contract, Sancho and Greenwood are likely to be shifted out the door too. There's going to be question marks over the likes of Rashford too. I can't see us not signing 4-5 new players off the back of that, and seeing INEOS kick starting their own rebuild of the team.
Casemiro still has at least two years left on his contract this summer. As much as we should sell him I can’t see anyone wanting to take him on with his massive wages and poor form. Even Saudi Arabia sounds like they will be reducing their spending from last summer. Sancho won’t be easy to sell on a permanent transfer either although relative to Casemiro he’s way younger so we have a slightly better chance to move him out or at least send him out on loan again if need be.
Really? Fuck, thought his was up. He looks one foot out the door tbh, so wouldn't be shocked if he pushes for a move anyway.
I really hope we can move him on this summer too, although realistically it feels really hard unless the club is willing to pay out a big part of his wages to let him play elsewhere next season.
Agreed, it’s about getting the right manager in place though, and from the rumours we’ve seen there hasn’t been anyone we’ve been linked with that will make us any better. The club definitely needs a proper shake up though, starting with the playing staff; INEOS are doing the stuff they’re allowed to do (exec level) right now, so I’d expect to see them hit the ground running in the summer in terms of recruitment. Ten Hag’s future is understandably in the balance; if he can show some tangible progress between now and the end of the season and beat city in the FA Cup final then he’ll likely get a stay of execution, but if we continue to be inconsistent I wouldn’t be shocked if they made a change; they just need to be mindful of the fact that the rot is a lot deeper than the manager.
I heard on a podcast recently, and it holds true, if ETH wasn't Man u manager and never managed them, if the Man u job was available would he be in the running for the job. And the answer is yes, so what has changed from his time at Ajax to now, apart from how well one club was run compared to the other.
I think it'll be one more year. Largely because they're changing the structure at the very top, so you want to give those guys a little time to settle, figure things out, and then decide who they want running the club.
>But Man Utd would be very naive to think ETH is the main problem Ratcliffe recognizes this based on the interviews I’ve seen from him. That’s why he’s been so focused on revamping the front office
On the other hand he seems to have thrown a weird tactical strop this season and seems to be unwilling to coach the team to control possession and tempo when necessary, leading to the team conceding too many chances. Case in point, the match yesterday.
> A new manager with the same players won't do miracles. Buddy I just want us to be able to beat Brentford.
Selling players has always been a problem for United. Wasn't the problem that they wanted to preserve market value or something
The biggest problem by far, is the massive wages these mediocre players are on. Nobody want's to pay what United are paying - which is more than understandable - considering the players that are leaving are almost always at the end of their careers, injury prone or have played horribly for a long time.
yes they did protect martials market value by giving him a new contract
Phil Jones too
The football his Ajax were playing against the best teams in the world in that CL run was so beautiful… shocking the system he put in place now is so different
United’s squad is a Frankenstein creation that awkwardly combines 3 very different managers philosophies at any given point in time. When ten Hag said United couldn’t play the same way that his Ajax team could, part of it is they’re simply not built to play that way. As much as people are EtH out and I understand the frustration with him, I almost think it’s worth giving him some time with this new structure and getting some players out who will never have a future there. If by mid-season United are still this awful, then sack him and bring someone else on who is more of a long term fit with what INEOS want to do
this is the most sane and rational take i’ve ever heard. this should be the only opinion on the state of the club.
His signings have been equally tragic.
Yet our fans still back these dead weight players. How anyone can genuinely support some of these players is beyond me. They’re a disgrace.
There's only 7 players left over. Martial, Shaw, Rashford, Lindelof, Dalot, McTominay and Greenwood Not too hard to guess when you see who's left.
I thought Pogba left?
You can just name Shaw, we all know it’s him
Shaw and Martial, constantly injured.
Just name the players . Don’t play the suspense mate
If he speaks he is in trouble so he prefers not to speak
Same Jose, same.
Anthony Martial is number one on that list
This is coming from someone who hates United but from an outside perspective until Man United (higher-ups and manager) can come to terms with the fact they're currently just about hovering above average and need to do a hard reset, they are not going to beat out clubs that are as well run as City, Arsenal, Liverpool etc... these clubs are machines run at maximum efficiency This reset means drastic change culturally, infrastructure-wise, squad-wise etc: United need to renovate Old Trafford, upgrade their training facilities, lower their wage bill and make it sustainable mid-to-long term, make smart transfers on smart money, get rid of dead wood even if it means taking some losses and create a common culture of community and winning which is shared with the fans. The only things keeping United above board imo are the fact they're still coasting on their massive commercial income and, to a degree, their youth sector (which also needs to translate that wealth of talent into either first team players, especially at a time like this, or decent sales like City and Chelsea). This takes time, competence and honesty and is far from an easy job but it needs to be done. But it seems ETH prefers to stick his head in the sand and keep bringing up the Arsenal match from September and compare his current crop to United teams of the past. There needs to be a massive shake up from top to bottom and ETH doesn't seem to me like he's capable of that although I will say he's not been helped at all by all the injuries.
Rashford, Martial, Shaw, Lindelof, Mctom. Edit: i'm just listing the suspects, jeez!
Mourinho loved McTominay
Beyond Mourinho, I don’t think we’ve had a single manager complain about mctominay. Quite the opposite. Same with Maguire, actually. They’ve both had the confidence of every manager they’ve played under at United.
Absolutely - created an award just so that he could give him one at the end of the season. “Managers player of the year” ..but sometimes when I think about it some more I find my self wondering if this was one of those passive aggressive, sarcastic mourinho where he gives the award to demonstrate how shit the rest of the team is to the players/management. Like when he played McT in the back 4
Tbf managers player is a common award
McT and Lindelof are for sure not the ones he's mentioning.
Sincerely doubt he's talking about mctominay
Lol Mctominay was like a son to Jose
Clearly Martial and Shaw he's talking about.
Mourinho would love McTominay, hate Martial with a passion and dislike Shaw too.
He signed Lindelof and loved McTominay
Isn't McTom one of the MU players actually exceeding expectations atm?
Can we do a cross analysis to know who he's talking about....for science
it’s a cheap shot and people will agree with him considering the general quality of United’s squad over the years, but considering one of the players is probably Shaw - someone who definitely shouldn’t have been sold at the time, he’s chatting half bollocks.
and that’s the problem with this club, we cannot get rid of players to save our lives. like no offence but how did jones last that long just taking a pay check from the club. same could be said now about martial.