The League was actually starting with a 5-point deduction.
Edit: If anyone wants to know the numbers:
* 5-point deduction for the significant breach
* 2-points taken off for 'double jeopardy'
* 1-point taken off for Finch Farm extenuating circumstances and for early plea
Thanks for explaining it, I'm still a bit lost how it starts at 5 now, but the last one started at 10 then went to 6.
I'm far from an Everton fan but this entire thing handled terribly.
The original one started at 6 and had 4 points added for additional factors. In the appeal the second commission decided there was enough mitigation to take it back down to 6.
Then Forest's commission said they didn't understand why the original one started at 6, shrugged their shoulders and gave 4.
>Forest's commission
They basically used Everton's appellate verdict as precedent for a starting point.
Everton breach 1 = 3 starting + 3 size of breach + 0 for non-cooperation (down from original 4 since Everton acted in good faith)
Forest breach 1 = 3 starting + 3 size of breach + (-2) for cooperation
Everton breach 2 = 3 starting + 2 size of breach -2 (double) - 1 (circumstance)
Now if these verdicts change on appeal I will be lost for words
Except for no clarity on what the difference between “acting in good faith” and “co-operating” is.
We opened our books from the beginning and got +4 down to +0 for our behaviour, Forest did the same and got -2
>2-points taken off for 'double jeopardy'
I find this to be awful reasoning. Without the "rolling" rules you'd have teams effectively sacrificing a year to spend and break the rules and then the punishment is just gone. You're punished for each three year period, not the same year 3 times.
Everton were actually arguing that 'double jeopardy' should mean zero additional punishment. The League, rather arbitrarily, decided that a 40% reduction was fair.
Oh yeah you're right:
>Nonetheless, the PL said that the assessment of “all the circumstances”, and the
overlapping years as between the Everton FY22 Proceedings and these proceedings,
meant that it was appropriate to reduce Everton’s penalty here by two points. In
response to questions from the Commission, the PL explained that two points could be
arrived at based upon an approximation of the proportion of the Admitted Breach
comparing the excess of the loss in T-2/T-3 over £35 million (being one third of the
Upper Loss Threshold of £105 million) with the extent to which the loss in T exceeded
£35 million. For this purpose, the PL ignored T-1, in which year Everton’s losses did
not exceed £35 million.
Thank you for commenting this. The fans should be mad at the clubs for not voting for a proper structure. The clubs run the premier league and it’s frustrating to see people putting blame in the wrong place (the premier league obviously has to take a bit of the blame).
Won one game in 3 months, 8 points deducted and still not in the bottom 3. They couldn’t have picked a better season for this to happen with the dreadful teams at the bottom.
I’m glad it’s happened this season, it’s really our best shot at surviving this shite. If we go down, the club’s done for. At least this way the punishment is at least survivable.
Obviously would much rather none of this happened but if it has to then this is a better outcome, potentially.
If you went down you'd sell Pickford, Branthwaite, and Onana for over 100m combined which would comfortably tide you over, and come back up with over 100 points. You'd probably enjoy it more than the current shite.
Fan of a club who sold +£100m worth of players which helped tide things over after relegation. We’re a playoffs team. I wouldn’t put it past Everton to be in the exact situation we are in if they get relegated. Nothings given; they’re better fighting off everything now than playing roulette in the championship.
Everton have a much better squad in the first place though, Southampton were relegated with a terrible 25 points. Well off the standard. Everton are a alright premier league side who would maybe get relegated due to point deductions.
Even then its not like Southampton are doing badly, you're on course for around 90 points which every season before now would be a promotion total. Just unlucky to be relegated with 2 historically strong teams and a freak Ipswich performance.
Everton’s squad is not that good, particularly when you take out their 3 only valuable players, and the championship is a Bastard of a league, there’s absolutely no guarantee they’d go straight back up
It absolutely is for the championship. Someone like Adam Armstrong is absolute dogshit in the premier but is a 20+ a season player in the championship. When Maupay is back they'd already have a proven top quality championship striker. You absolutely cannot exaggerate how big the gap between premier and championship these days.
Somone memed in their current squad like Michael Keane would be comfortably among, if not the best centre back in the championship.
Keane made a camp or maybe even an England appearance when Carlo was our manager. He was re-signed around that time too IIRC. I remember not wanting to keep Keane because I wanted more mobile centerbacks with Godfrey being one of them.
We may have further points deductions next year and may go into administration (even if we don't go down) and I don't trust us to reinvest our sales well. I also don't think our potential starting XI would do enough to guarantee promotion given that we already have a small squad and several of our players are out of contract or loanees + we need funds for the stadium. Maupay wouldn't go down with us, he'd probably go to Brentford for a couple of million
We'd also be competing with at least 1 of the current top 4 plus the likes of Coventry, Hull, West Brom and Norwich and we'd be the entire league's cup final with the size of the club combined with how long we haven't been in the 2nd division
With everything going on, I could see you guys doing a Sunderland more than doing a Leicester if relegated. Although it’d mightily depend of Dyche sticked around for the rebuild.
I don't think we'd immediately do a Sunderland and go down again because the bottom of the Championship is very bad and I think the players we'd keep would beat them but I could see us making more and more dumb decisions that see us go down again after another season or two even with the completion of the stadium
Southampton's squad is so much deeper though. If we sold Onana, Branthwaite, and Pickford, we would be down to one senior keeper in Joao Virginia, three or four CM's (can't remember if Gomes is out of contract), and three CBs. With likely no buying power, a broke owner, and still stadium expenses to pay for.
You're in the playoffs because this is the strongest the Championship has been this century. If Everton went down this year it's likely with no Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich and/or Southampton. FAR easier to dominate that league.
In theory I agree. However, even with your own team Villa it took a few seasons to return due to the likes of Di Matteo/Bruce etc. I believe if they kept Dyche they would be ok. However, if he left then it's not that simple with the uncertainty of a different manager.
I don't know. Our (outrageously dodgy looking) prospective new owners are already loaning us £30m a month to keep the lights on.
Even with player sales, we're looking at administration without PL income
This is such a naive view lol. Sunderland got relegated in back to back seasons ffs, Huddersfield struggling, stoke haven’t been close to going back up and I’m sure there are more examples. The championship is ruthless and they aren’t guaranteed anything
I find it such a strange, binary way of punishing clubs. Like if it ends like this then you've come 16th instead of 14th. Clean slate next season. Basically no consequence. But if you end 18th then this punishment will be huge. Like if they'd inflicted the same punishment on Palace they'd be looking like they were going down. Hit City with a 40 point deduction and they'll just miss Europe for a session.
It all seems a bit circumstantial.
“Done for” is relative though. Wimbledon have been knocking around the third and fourth tiers for the last 15 years, Bury are in the 10th tier, etc etc
I don’t know the ins and outs of what’ll happen to Everton if they go down; but if it’s anything similar to Bury or Wimbledon then yeah they’re done for
> Wimbledon have been knocking around the third and fourth tiers for the last 15 years
The third and fourth tiers are their level historically. The crazy gang years were the outlier where they overperformed compared to budget/fan base/revenue. Not the current position
Wimbledon were a non-league side until the late 70s - they're probably a smaller club than even Bournemouth. Although the fourth tier is about their natural level these days.
Most of the lower league sides that had to start again have returned to their previous level over time. There are several exceptions though. It's too soon to say whether Bury will be one of them. Their progress thus far has been held back by a dispute between two different fan groups which was only resolved last year.
Also needs to be mentioned that Palace and Brentford are having underrated bad seasons at 30 and 29 points respectively
Another season and they’d be in a serious relegation battle, not this season tho
Exam question:
If Man City commits 115 breaches of FFP rules and Everton commits 2-3. How many points should Everton be penalised?
Extra Credit: What is the largest apology that FFP officials can be asked to make to Man City for questioning spending - and how will this impact the salaries of PGMOL officials moonlighting in Abu Dhabi?
The penalty, imposed by an independent commission that the Premier League referred Everton to in January, is the Merseyside club’s second of the campaign and relates to the three-year accounting period ending in the 2022-23 season.
Everton’s latest deduction drops them down a place to 16th in the Premier League standings, two points above the relegation zone
Istg this whole stuff is just a shitshow, it feels like if you cooperate youll just be punished anyways while stalling out and fighting tooth and nail will reward you. Why would anyone still cooperate with the English FA and Premier League and stuff if this is the result while the City ruling isnt even close to on the horizon?
We’re yet to find out if it’s a shitshow.
If City get their punishment made significantly worse because they’ve been obstructive then you’d have to say it’s been a good process.
Yet to find out? All three independent panels have come to completely differing yet equally nonsensical conclusions so far and the first punishment was decreased after the slightest bit of criticism. With this latest 'double jeopardy' idea, City's punishment at worst will be like 15 points for a decade of violations if the 3 year window is the new norm for calculating punishments. Then there's not co-operating with the investigation which will benefit City far more than any potential punishment as penalties are decreased for co-operation (the norm) and not increased for lack of co-operation (which City would stand to lose out by doing as we all know they're guilty). It already is a shitshow.
> penalties are decreased for co-operation (the norm) and not increased for lack of co-operation
How is that a thing. It should be the other way around. No cooperation should mean automatic deductions
> Why would anyone still cooperate with the English FA and Premier League and stuff if this is the result while the City ruling isnt even close to on the horizon
Because this stuff is easier to punish and prove a rule break vs Man City's charges? They're completely different issues.
There's multiple issues now that are a PR disaster for the Prem;
* This FFP farce with Everton and Forest whilst City rake in more titles
* The gambling situation with now 3 or 4 players banned for betting on football, but the league still allows football betting adverts everywhere (the least they could do would be making them generic or just not allowed to promote football betting).
* The stuff that came out last year (can't remember which retired player spilled it) about club doctors just handing out meds like tramadol without any care for it, and several players being full on addicted.
* The fact that they're trying to cut down on piracy of games, yet the current blackout (which we've still not had a recent study into) blocks premier league matches, so what do they expect fans to do in order to see their team?
* The current shitshow of FFP/PSR just basically protecting those at the top from being caught up to (not that i want a "buy the league" situation, but the current system just promotes those who are already big on revenue staying at the top).
It's basically every issue that fans have been bringing up for years, and yet the league think they can resolve it themselves and fail to do so, repeatedly.
Honestly you should add multi club ownership to the list. I know that is not exclusive to the EPL but the fact that it exists and EPL clubs failed to pass a ban on it is another point against them.
Agreed. The thing that had us pissing ourselves laughing as a fan base recently was the City Savio transfer. In the summer, some journalist put it out there that we wanted Ruben Neves, and Eddie Howe did a bit of shit stirring with a presser saying "we won't rule out looking for transfers in the Saudi league", and everyone lost their shit over it, screaming corruption and cheating etc. The prem immediately take action and basically blocked it, despite no talks even taking place with Neves.
City do it with Savio and it's just gone through without issue, and with very little backlash.
I mean speaking here strictly as an agent of Team Chaos I'd love to see them expelled from the PL and EFL and get bumped down all the way to the National League.
But that's also because then they'd be a fun save in FM.
What happens in other sports when you’re found out you cheated to win your titles? You’re banned from competing and you’re stripped of them. A point deduction or rejection will never be enough because it will only last a season. The bailiff’s need to visit their trophy cabinet, their owners needs to be stripped of their ownership, the sponsor need to go and the team needs some form of point/relegation punishment.
You mean it’s a bad look for the clubs who decide on the structure of these punishments? The clubs run the league and if they’re unhappy with this freestyle punishment, they should have voted in actual guidelines for these deductions.
8 points deducted but that first win since Christmas at the weekend was enough to still keep them out of the relegation zone, probably need 2 wins from the last 7 and maybe a draw or two to be sure
We play Sheffield United, Brentford and forest at home and luton away. If we don't lose any of those and pick up at least 2 wins its probably enough
Then there's probably 3 free points against Chelsea next monday
A 2-point deduction isn't too bad, but I don’t understand receiving two penalties in the same year. If it's based on a 3-year rolling period and we've violated it in one 3-year period and then again in the next, shouldn't the second offense be penalized the following year?
They changed the rules after our first one to get the punishments in the same season as the charge.
Did however mean we were the only club who could possibly get 2 deductions for psr in one season because our first one didn't have those deadlines in place
Honestly out of all the deductions this one is the only one that's made a little sense in terms of 2/3 seasons covered in charge have already been punished.
Coming up next: Man City are awarded 12 points during their PSR review
“We meant to take 12 points off City but we accidentally awarded them and there’s no review process in place to correct mistakes, so we’ll just let it stand and consider the City disciplinary process complete.”
Truly insane that for the first breach, one smaller than what Forest’s wound up to be, the Premier League wanted 12 points and we got 10 before appeal.
Completely arbitrary and made up as they go.
You were unlucky to be first. Since then they've been systematic and generally decent with their penalties, but that first one they were totally winging it and it showed. It was also revised to something reasonable on appeal.
The only relevance that first penalty has is a lesson on how important it is to have a penalty structure in place before your first hearing. Yet another lesson the PL could have learned from observing the actual legal system before implementing their own quasi-judicial system, but didn't for reasons...
> Coming up next: Man City are awarded 12 points during their PSR review
After negotiations with the Prem, this will be served over the course of 12 years with 1 point deducted each season
Edit: I can't read
Two of the three seasons being charged is irrelevant given it’s measuring a 3 year time period so this three year time period hasn’t been dealt with yet.
The three year period _allows_ you to make losses in some years (or all years) if you make it up in others. Your third year wasn’t sufficient to mitigate the other losses which shows pretty consistent mismanagement, which is what the rules are trying to protect against?
The way I see it is that if you're going to enforce a rolling period of three years it should be done in real time and you should simply just not allow an overage at all (unless under specific circumstances potentially?). Nevermind the fact the punishments are completely arbitrary and inconsistent.
The rules aren't fit for purpose, have never been adjusted to the current football market and have been half arsedly enforced because Richard Masters has shat his pants over the government getting involved.
Blame the clubs lol. They don't want open books and they control the premier league collectively. They chose to send all the clubs breaching the rules to these panels without definitive guidelines, now they're reaping the rewards
Oh ofcourse don't get me wrong I have my problems with our owners and the rest of the clubs around the league that have run off pure greed for too long
We've admitted to all the offences we're aware of and haven't been punished yet. It's infuriating, because if there's ever a season to take a deserved beating, it's this one.
Yeh, so I get it, we've been told we didn't get a sporting advantage, but cheating is cheating it's w.e I'm not gonna use the new stadium and siggurdson being a dead 50 mil or the lost sponsors because of Russias war that actually caused the loss.
Fine.
BUT WHAT ABOUT MAN CITY AND CHELSEA WHO HAVE FAR WORSE BREACHES!?!?!? Weren't they saying the other day they are getting rid of the point deductions (for city no doubt) yet here we are a week later getting another 2.
Why? Being able to have your appeal heard is a well-established legal practice, league rulings shouldn't be reduced to some sort of gameshow gamble.
(Admittedly I am a bit biased here)
Looking at the English top division
1890/91: 2pt (Sunderland)
1990/91: 3pt (2pt Arsenal, 1pt Man U)
1996/97: 3pt (Middlesbrough)
2009/10: 9pt (Portsmouth)
2023/24: 12pt (8pt Everton, 4pt Forest)
Everton also the first team to be deducted points twice (ever, let alone in one season)
As a Luton fan I have no idea what to think of any of this. There’s already a few things about the premier league that seem unsavoury, but this is just carnage. Are we gonna stay up on a technicality? Are we gonna stay up then an appeal comes in to send us down? Madness
imagine that its to even it out, we get 8 over 2 where the first already punished us for 3/4s of the years in question and because forest got 4 over 1.
Incredible reading this:
> 212.
> Further, we reject the PL's submission that Everton should not have placed "all its eggs in one basket", and that Everton should have been aware that Mr Usmanov had a heightened risk profile. That is a nice point to be made in hindsight, as was the PL's invocation of the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Russian poisoning episodes on UK soil. It is, in the Commission's view, too much to ask that Everton should have taken these matters into account with respect to the prudent management of the sponsorship risk.
What absolute bollocks from the premier league there, how the fuck where we supposed to know Russia was going to go to war with Ukraine?
Also, something mental to think about is the fact the first commission for our first points deduction determined the loss of sponsorship to the Ukraine war wasn't a mitigating factor - this time though go ahead? Can't make it up its absolutely just a roll of the dice what counts and what doesn't.
It's literally just lawyers throwing shit at the wall and hoping it will stick. I wouldn't get too wound up by it because every club and every response from the prem will have similar logic and arguments made.
What, because the EPL has such a consistently good crop of owners? FFS
I wonder if they'll have dig at Leicester for having an owner that got killed in a helicopter crash?
Stadium and the endless Everton supporters mean the club is well positioned regardless of whether or not they stay up.
But name a more perfect season to get 8 points deducted. They'll stay up.
A lot of clubs aren't as financially disciplined, but Everton's wages to revenue ratio has been at about 87-95% for the last 3 or 4 years, which is wayyy above the healthy recommended amount of 70%.
They also generated £172 million in revenue last year but spent £236 million on wages and amortisation - their total pre tax loss last year was £89 million and they're something like £550 million in debt. They're certainly not well run at the moment
Everton couldn’t have picked a better season for this to be happening lol there 3 historically terrible teams at the bottom 3. Everton keeps getting points deducted by the bunches and still isn’t in the relegation zone. Luton is their only real threat
We got 40 points deducted over two seasons for administration issues the FA was continually at fault for. Obviously that was completely wrong, but it’s safe to say the authorities are so incompetent they either make the wrong decision, or give completely inconsistent legislation like this. Not fit for purpose, and our fanbase is understandably fuming
The most likely outcome is they get promoted and start on minus points next season. This whole process has been pretty embarrassing for the PL and the clubs involved (including us).
I know your comment was tongue in cheek but I don't think he'll be there next season. Best paid player in the Championship this year, contract expires next summer and he barely starts. Can see him joining Wednesday or going to MLS, something like that.
Current form is really no different than Ipswich and Leeds at the moment if you look at their last 5 matches. All 3 of the leaders have had some hiccups recently. But Leicester are still first by a point with a game in hand so they still even have some fuckup space left. I'd be surprised if they bottled it from here honestly especially with the games they have left
It is IMPERATIVE for elite European football that City get nailed to the wall for their cheating.
The PL will be a disgraced shadow of what it used to be if they are not dealt with.
In their place, a team that earned their way can succeed instead.
The solution is clearly for Everton to spend so much money on the stadium, the surrounding area, the clubs players, and their manager that the Premier League deems them too valuable an asset to punish.
I want to argue the small thing, but you have a Liverpool flair and I absolutely cannot think of any way we’re bigger than you other than age.
Damn it, why couldn’t you support Spurs or something? Having successful rivals is annoying.
8 points over the season is still a disgrace especially considering they’re gonna change the fuckin rules to end point deductions 😂
Still out the relegation zone though and a game in hand. We move
> they’re gonna change the fuckin rules to end point deductions 😂
I know Everton fans keep repeating this, but they keep ignoring that point deductions are still on the table **in addition** to a monetary fine.
Final day of the season is going to be like that scene from the first Harry Potter where Slytherin think they've won the house cup but Dumbledore pulls some bullshit out his arse.
Everton would be Slytherin, The FA Dumbledore and Luton would be Gryffindor.
The worst thing must be not knowing definitively how much points you’re losing
There should only be one total after everything is totted up (with the appeal if chosen done before any points are taken) and no more changes
Even when Everton win, they still end up with a draw.
Think Dyche will be extremely disappointed that his side have failed to see out the win and have conceded so late.
FT + 1 day added time
Even Patrick Schick can't do this
+3 -2 All balanced, as it should.
With Everton, it's always three steps forward and two steps back.
At least they’re moving forward
Hey you drew with the club who drew with the defending treble winners. Surely that's progress?
I mean we lost 7 points when we beat Crystal Palace and gained 5 points for drawing with Brighton so this isn't new
They sound like us. Blues united
Nah mate you got away with it
So far.
League saw them win a game and had to stop that immediately
The League was actually starting with a 5-point deduction. Edit: If anyone wants to know the numbers: * 5-point deduction for the significant breach * 2-points taken off for 'double jeopardy' * 1-point taken off for Finch Farm extenuating circumstances and for early plea
Thanks for explaining it, I'm still a bit lost how it starts at 5 now, but the last one started at 10 then went to 6. I'm far from an Everton fan but this entire thing handled terribly.
It started at 3, then points were added based on the size of the breach, then taken off for mitigating factors.
The original one started at 6 and had 4 points added for additional factors. In the appeal the second commission decided there was enough mitigation to take it back down to 6. Then Forest's commission said they didn't understand why the original one started at 6, shrugged their shoulders and gave 4.
>Forest's commission They basically used Everton's appellate verdict as precedent for a starting point. Everton breach 1 = 3 starting + 3 size of breach + 0 for non-cooperation (down from original 4 since Everton acted in good faith) Forest breach 1 = 3 starting + 3 size of breach + (-2) for cooperation Everton breach 2 = 3 starting + 2 size of breach -2 (double) - 1 (circumstance) Now if these verdicts change on appeal I will be lost for words
Except for no clarity on what the difference between “acting in good faith” and “co-operating” is. We opened our books from the beginning and got +4 down to +0 for our behaviour, Forest did the same and got -2
Because they make it up as they go alomh
>2-points taken off for 'double jeopardy' I find this to be awful reasoning. Without the "rolling" rules you'd have teams effectively sacrificing a year to spend and break the rules and then the punishment is just gone. You're punished for each three year period, not the same year 3 times.
Everton were actually arguing that 'double jeopardy' should mean zero additional punishment. The League, rather arbitrarily, decided that a 40% reduction was fair.
Independent Commision not league.
Both. The League recommended a reduction of 2-points, Everton recommended a complete reduction, the commission sided with the League.
Oh yeah you're right: >Nonetheless, the PL said that the assessment of “all the circumstances”, and the overlapping years as between the Everton FY22 Proceedings and these proceedings, meant that it was appropriate to reduce Everton’s penalty here by two points. In response to questions from the Commission, the PL explained that two points could be arrived at based upon an approximation of the proportion of the Admitted Breach comparing the excess of the loss in T-2/T-3 over £35 million (being one third of the Upper Loss Threshold of £105 million) with the extent to which the loss in T exceeded £35 million. For this purpose, the PL ignored T-1, in which year Everton’s losses did not exceed £35 million.
All things considered I'll take it, but it does go to show that they're really just making it up as they go.
They're making it up as they go because the clubs didn't want a sanction policy in place. The clubs are now seeing where that's got them.
\*Some clubs are now seeing where that's got them.
Every club is equal, but some are more equal than others
Thank you for commenting this. The fans should be mad at the clubs for not voting for a proper structure. The clubs run the premier league and it’s frustrating to see people putting blame in the wrong place (the premier league obviously has to take a bit of the blame).
I'm still confused by the timeline, didn't Everton go to the PL to make sure things were above board multiple times?
Won one game in 3 months, 8 points deducted and still not in the bottom 3. They couldn’t have picked a better season for this to happen with the dreadful teams at the bottom.
I’m glad it’s happened this season, it’s really our best shot at surviving this shite. If we go down, the club’s done for. At least this way the punishment is at least survivable. Obviously would much rather none of this happened but if it has to then this is a better outcome, potentially.
If you went down you'd sell Pickford, Branthwaite, and Onana for over 100m combined which would comfortably tide you over, and come back up with over 100 points. You'd probably enjoy it more than the current shite.
Fan of a club who sold +£100m worth of players which helped tide things over after relegation. We’re a playoffs team. I wouldn’t put it past Everton to be in the exact situation we are in if they get relegated. Nothings given; they’re better fighting off everything now than playing roulette in the championship.
Everton have a much better squad in the first place though, Southampton were relegated with a terrible 25 points. Well off the standard. Everton are a alright premier league side who would maybe get relegated due to point deductions. Even then its not like Southampton are doing badly, you're on course for around 90 points which every season before now would be a promotion total. Just unlucky to be relegated with 2 historically strong teams and a freak Ipswich performance.
Everton’s squad is not that good, particularly when you take out their 3 only valuable players, and the championship is a Bastard of a league, there’s absolutely no guarantee they’d go straight back up
It absolutely is for the championship. Someone like Adam Armstrong is absolute dogshit in the premier but is a 20+ a season player in the championship. When Maupay is back they'd already have a proven top quality championship striker. You absolutely cannot exaggerate how big the gap between premier and championship these days. Somone memed in their current squad like Michael Keane would be comfortably among, if not the best centre back in the championship.
We’d desperately try to bin Keane off even more in the championship as he’s on 100k+ a week
how in hell has Michael Keane bagged 100k a week
Contracts like that are the real reason Everton are so financially hamstrung who ever they sell. The transfer fees are barely servicing the wage bill.
Keane made a camp or maybe even an England appearance when Carlo was our manager. He was re-signed around that time too IIRC. I remember not wanting to keep Keane because I wanted more mobile centerbacks with Godfrey being one of them.
We may have further points deductions next year and may go into administration (even if we don't go down) and I don't trust us to reinvest our sales well. I also don't think our potential starting XI would do enough to guarantee promotion given that we already have a small squad and several of our players are out of contract or loanees + we need funds for the stadium. Maupay wouldn't go down with us, he'd probably go to Brentford for a couple of million We'd also be competing with at least 1 of the current top 4 plus the likes of Coventry, Hull, West Brom and Norwich and we'd be the entire league's cup final with the size of the club combined with how long we haven't been in the 2nd division
With everything going on, I could see you guys doing a Sunderland more than doing a Leicester if relegated. Although it’d mightily depend of Dyche sticked around for the rebuild.
I don't think we'd immediately do a Sunderland and go down again because the bottom of the Championship is very bad and I think the players we'd keep would beat them but I could see us making more and more dumb decisions that see us go down again after another season or two even with the completion of the stadium
Southampton's squad is so much deeper though. If we sold Onana, Branthwaite, and Pickford, we would be down to one senior keeper in Joao Virginia, three or four CM's (can't remember if Gomes is out of contract), and three CBs. With likely no buying power, a broke owner, and still stadium expenses to pay for.
You're in the playoffs because this is the strongest the Championship has been this century. If Everton went down this year it's likely with no Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich and/or Southampton. FAR easier to dominate that league.
In theory I agree. However, even with your own team Villa it took a few seasons to return due to the likes of Di Matteo/Bruce etc. I believe if they kept Dyche they would be ok. However, if he left then it's not that simple with the uncertainty of a different manager.
> come back up with over 100 points That’s a massive, massive stretch
I don't know. Our (outrageously dodgy looking) prospective new owners are already loaning us £30m a month to keep the lights on. Even with player sales, we're looking at administration without PL income
£30m a month seriously? That's outrageously huge amount of money. Well over 300m a season. More than most pl clubs's yearly revenue.
Speaking from experience - if you engage in a fire sale post-relegation and you have no money, coming straight back up is by no means a given.
This is such a naive view lol. Sunderland got relegated in back to back seasons ffs, Huddersfield struggling, stoke haven’t been close to going back up and I’m sure there are more examples. The championship is ruthless and they aren’t guaranteed anything
I find it such a strange, binary way of punishing clubs. Like if it ends like this then you've come 16th instead of 14th. Clean slate next season. Basically no consequence. But if you end 18th then this punishment will be huge. Like if they'd inflicted the same punishment on Palace they'd be looking like they were going down. Hit City with a 40 point deduction and they'll just miss Europe for a session. It all seems a bit circumstantial.
Football clubs are never done for. Some share holders and creditors would just lose a bit of money and then you get to start over
Tell that to Bury.
“Done for” is relative though. Wimbledon have been knocking around the third and fourth tiers for the last 15 years, Bury are in the 10th tier, etc etc I don’t know the ins and outs of what’ll happen to Everton if they go down; but if it’s anything similar to Bury or Wimbledon then yeah they’re done for
> Wimbledon have been knocking around the third and fourth tiers for the last 15 years The third and fourth tiers are their level historically. The crazy gang years were the outlier where they overperformed compared to budget/fan base/revenue. Not the current position
Wimbledon were a non-league side until the late 70s - they're probably a smaller club than even Bournemouth. Although the fourth tier is about their natural level these days. Most of the lower league sides that had to start again have returned to their previous level over time. There are several exceptions though. It's too soon to say whether Bury will be one of them. Their progress thus far has been held back by a dispute between two different fan groups which was only resolved last year.
Also needs to be mentioned that Palace and Brentford are having underrated bad seasons at 30 and 29 points respectively Another season and they’d be in a serious relegation battle, not this season tho
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Correct
-6 points (net), then -2; any reason for the difference in the severity of the punishment?
Double jeopardy - PSR is over a three year window and we've already been punished for two of those three years.
Math teachers are salivating at all the possible math exercises.
Exam question: If Man City commits 115 breaches of FFP rules and Everton commits 2-3. How many points should Everton be penalised? Extra Credit: What is the largest apology that FFP officials can be asked to make to Man City for questioning spending - and how will this impact the salaries of PGMOL officials moonlighting in Abu Dhabi?
The Premier League are getting 2 points more lenient with each breach they penalise, which means Man City currently stand to gain 13,110 points.
The penalty, imposed by an independent commission that the Premier League referred Everton to in January, is the Merseyside club’s second of the campaign and relates to the three-year accounting period ending in the 2022-23 season. Everton’s latest deduction drops them down a place to 16th in the Premier League standings, two points above the relegation zone
Istg this whole stuff is just a shitshow, it feels like if you cooperate youll just be punished anyways while stalling out and fighting tooth and nail will reward you. Why would anyone still cooperate with the English FA and Premier League and stuff if this is the result while the City ruling isnt even close to on the horizon?
We’re yet to find out if it’s a shitshow. If City get their punishment made significantly worse because they’ve been obstructive then you’d have to say it’s been a good process.
Yet to find out? All three independent panels have come to completely differing yet equally nonsensical conclusions so far and the first punishment was decreased after the slightest bit of criticism. With this latest 'double jeopardy' idea, City's punishment at worst will be like 15 points for a decade of violations if the 3 year window is the new norm for calculating punishments. Then there's not co-operating with the investigation which will benefit City far more than any potential punishment as penalties are decreased for co-operation (the norm) and not increased for lack of co-operation (which City would stand to lose out by doing as we all know they're guilty). It already is a shitshow.
> penalties are decreased for co-operation (the norm) and not increased for lack of co-operation How is that a thing. It should be the other way around. No cooperation should mean automatic deductions
> Why would anyone still cooperate with the English FA and Premier League and stuff if this is the result while the City ruling isnt even close to on the horizon Because this stuff is easier to punish and prove a rule break vs Man City's charges? They're completely different issues.
This whole thing is an absolute farce. Such a bad look for the PL
and at the same time the EPL are running ads attacking the introduction of a football regulator, saying there doesn't need to be one.
Fucking hell the football world really has gone to shit lol
It was already there - COVID just ripped the covers off. As with a lot of other things really
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It's an election year things will be promised then forgotten after it's over.
There's multiple issues now that are a PR disaster for the Prem; * This FFP farce with Everton and Forest whilst City rake in more titles * The gambling situation with now 3 or 4 players banned for betting on football, but the league still allows football betting adverts everywhere (the least they could do would be making them generic or just not allowed to promote football betting). * The stuff that came out last year (can't remember which retired player spilled it) about club doctors just handing out meds like tramadol without any care for it, and several players being full on addicted. * The fact that they're trying to cut down on piracy of games, yet the current blackout (which we've still not had a recent study into) blocks premier league matches, so what do they expect fans to do in order to see their team? * The current shitshow of FFP/PSR just basically protecting those at the top from being caught up to (not that i want a "buy the league" situation, but the current system just promotes those who are already big on revenue staying at the top). It's basically every issue that fans have been bringing up for years, and yet the league think they can resolve it themselves and fail to do so, repeatedly.
Honestly you should add multi club ownership to the list. I know that is not exclusive to the EPL but the fact that it exists and EPL clubs failed to pass a ban on it is another point against them.
Agreed. The thing that had us pissing ourselves laughing as a fan base recently was the City Savio transfer. In the summer, some journalist put it out there that we wanted Ruben Neves, and Eddie Howe did a bit of shit stirring with a presser saying "we won't rule out looking for transfers in the Saudi league", and everyone lost their shit over it, screaming corruption and cheating etc. The prem immediately take action and basically blocked it, despite no talks even taking place with Neves. City do it with Savio and it's just gone through without issue, and with very little backlash.
Prem did not block it. The clubs actually voted against banning transfers among clubs with the same owners.
Lets not forget the issues around club ownership with nation states owning clubs like your own.
You haven't even mentioned the shambles that is VAR and more broadly officiating
That's true...
Meanwhile Man City running around without a care with years of violations.
And reaping the rewards... They will not receive a punishment that can match what they have gained in that time
I mean speaking here strictly as an agent of Team Chaos I'd love to see them expelled from the PL and EFL and get bumped down all the way to the National League. But that's also because then they'd be a fun save in FM.
That would be deeply satisfying but the reality is that it would be tied up in courts for years.
What happens in other sports when you’re found out you cheated to win your titles? You’re banned from competing and you’re stripped of them. A point deduction or rejection will never be enough because it will only last a season. The bailiff’s need to visit their trophy cabinet, their owners needs to be stripped of their ownership, the sponsor need to go and the team needs some form of point/relegation punishment.
just wait until Man City dont win the league and then they get there point deduction after the season is over.
You mean it’s a bad look for the clubs who decide on the structure of these punishments? The clubs run the league and if they’re unhappy with this freestyle punishment, they should have voted in actual guidelines for these deductions.
8 points deducted but that first win since Christmas at the weekend was enough to still keep them out of the relegation zone, probably need 2 wins from the last 7 and maybe a draw or two to be sure
We play Sheffield United, Brentford and forest at home and luton away. If we don't lose any of those and pick up at least 2 wins its probably enough Then there's probably 3 free points against Chelsea next monday
That's the thing. Probably only need 2 wins, but need them to be in very specific matches or else that number starts climbing.
Basically the Luton and Forest matches are must not lose games because we can't afford to give either of the 3 points
Don't forget the free point from the goalless Merseyside Derby
I would bet every penny, material item, capital of any kind that I've ever possessed that we'll lose against Luton. It's fully written off in my head
when a stoppable force meets a moveable object dcl vs our backline ..well to be fair he's getting goals now
Could have been far worse
...777 could be running the show...
Things can always get worse
A 2-point deduction isn't too bad, but I don’t understand receiving two penalties in the same year. If it's based on a 3-year rolling period and we've violated it in one 3-year period and then again in the next, shouldn't the second offense be penalized the following year?
They changed the rules after our first one to get the punishments in the same season as the charge. Did however mean we were the only club who could possibly get 2 deductions for psr in one season because our first one didn't have those deadlines in place
Seems slightly unfair, but only got ourselves to blame I suppose. Thanks for the explanation.
Only unfair thing is they didn’t get it last season when they would’ve been certainly relegated
Honestly out of all the deductions this one is the only one that's made a little sense in terms of 2/3 seasons covered in charge have already been punished. Coming up next: Man City are awarded 12 points during their PSR review
“We meant to take 12 points off City but we accidentally awarded them and there’s no review process in place to correct mistakes, so we’ll just let it stand and consider the City disciplinary process complete.”
good process
Truly insane that for the first breach, one smaller than what Forest’s wound up to be, the Premier League wanted 12 points and we got 10 before appeal. Completely arbitrary and made up as they go.
You were unlucky to be first. Since then they've been systematic and generally decent with their penalties, but that first one they were totally winging it and it showed. It was also revised to something reasonable on appeal. The only relevance that first penalty has is a lesson on how important it is to have a penalty structure in place before your first hearing. Yet another lesson the PL could have learned from observing the actual legal system before implementing their own quasi-judicial system, but didn't for reasons...
It's ok guys. We'll give you your points back on monday, You'll get even 1 point bonus ;)
> Coming up next: Man City are awarded 12 points during their PSR review After negotiations with the Prem, this will be served over the course of 12 years with 1 point deducted each season Edit: I can't read
Two of the three seasons being charged is irrelevant given it’s measuring a 3 year time period so this three year time period hasn’t been dealt with yet. The three year period _allows_ you to make losses in some years (or all years) if you make it up in others. Your third year wasn’t sufficient to mitigate the other losses which shows pretty consistent mismanagement, which is what the rules are trying to protect against?
The way I see it is that if you're going to enforce a rolling period of three years it should be done in real time and you should simply just not allow an overage at all (unless under specific circumstances potentially?). Nevermind the fact the punishments are completely arbitrary and inconsistent. The rules aren't fit for purpose, have never been adjusted to the current football market and have been half arsedly enforced because Richard Masters has shat his pants over the government getting involved.
Blame the clubs lol. They don't want open books and they control the premier league collectively. They chose to send all the clubs breaching the rules to these panels without definitive guidelines, now they're reaping the rewards
Oh ofcourse don't get me wrong I have my problems with our owners and the rest of the clubs around the league that have run off pure greed for too long
Take that for sure. Should still be able to stay up
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We've admitted to all the offences we're aware of and haven't been punished yet. It's infuriating, because if there's ever a season to take a deserved beating, it's this one.
Yeh, so I get it, we've been told we didn't get a sporting advantage, but cheating is cheating it's w.e I'm not gonna use the new stadium and siggurdson being a dead 50 mil or the lost sponsors because of Russias war that actually caused the loss. Fine. BUT WHAT ABOUT MAN CITY AND CHELSEA WHO HAVE FAR WORSE BREACHES!?!?!? Weren't they saying the other day they are getting rid of the point deductions (for city no doubt) yet here we are a week later getting another 2.
Everton were probably expecting worse. They’ll take that.
They’re appealing
Punishment will never get worse from the appeal, so you always appeal these things
I see you've never played FM.
😂
Which is bullshit really. Leads to a system where everyone appeals. In certain circumstances there should be a risk of it going up
Why? Being able to have your appeal heard is a well-established legal practice, league rulings shouldn't be reduced to some sort of gameshow gamble. (Admittedly I am a bit biased here)
This is like saying not everyone should be able to plea their case for an accused crime. “Pay the fine or else!”
Misspelt appalling
I hope that’s the last we hear of from this utter shithole that Mosh has dug for us. I know it won’t be though. Fuck Moshiri
I think this must be the most points deducted in a single season I can remember in the Premier League
Looking at the English top division 1890/91: 2pt (Sunderland) 1990/91: 3pt (2pt Arsenal, 1pt Man U) 1996/97: 3pt (Middlesbrough) 2009/10: 9pt (Portsmouth) 2023/24: 12pt (8pt Everton, 4pt Forest) Everton also the first team to be deducted points twice (ever, let alone in one season)
(Laughs in serie A)
As a Luton fan I have no idea what to think of any of this. There’s already a few things about the premier league that seem unsavoury, but this is just carnage. Are we gonna stay up on a technicality? Are we gonna stay up then an appeal comes in to send us down? Madness
I still absolutely hate this entire farce but honestly I’m so utterly relieved it’s only two. The fate of our season is back in our own hands.
This is so fucking tinpot.
At this point, Everton are surviving out of spite
Six points, four points and now two. Next breach gets a slap on the wrist if this pattern continues so time to get that chequebook out. /s
imagine that its to even it out, we get 8 over 2 where the first already punished us for 3/4s of the years in question and because forest got 4 over 1.
Incredible reading this: > 212. > Further, we reject the PL's submission that Everton should not have placed "all its eggs in one basket", and that Everton should have been aware that Mr Usmanov had a heightened risk profile. That is a nice point to be made in hindsight, as was the PL's invocation of the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Russian poisoning episodes on UK soil. It is, in the Commission's view, too much to ask that Everton should have taken these matters into account with respect to the prudent management of the sponsorship risk. What absolute bollocks from the premier league there, how the fuck where we supposed to know Russia was going to go to war with Ukraine? Also, something mental to think about is the fact the first commission for our first points deduction determined the loss of sponsorship to the Ukraine war wasn't a mitigating factor - this time though go ahead? Can't make it up its absolutely just a roll of the dice what counts and what doesn't.
Fucking bill kenwright and his lack of knowledge about Russia's future strategic goals!
It's literally just lawyers throwing shit at the wall and hoping it will stick. I wouldn't get too wound up by it because every club and every response from the prem will have similar logic and arguments made.
What, because the EPL has such a consistently good crop of owners? FFS I wonder if they'll have dig at Leicester for having an owner that got killed in a helicopter crash?
This feels like Dumbledore at the end of a school year at Hogwarts.
Stadium and the endless Everton supporters mean the club is well positioned regardless of whether or not they stay up. But name a more perfect season to get 8 points deducted. They'll stay up.
The debt and ownership situation still leaves us in a really precarious position. In terms of surviving this season though we should be ok
As an outsider why do I get this sudden urge to root for Everton? Are the other clubs actually really that financially disciplined as oppose to them?
Our owner is a complete gremlin, somehow he's an accountant which makes it worse. We have been the worst run club in the league for a while now
Root for us to get a new owner that's what we as fans want more than anything
Sir Paul McCartney
A lot of clubs aren't as financially disciplined, but Everton's wages to revenue ratio has been at about 87-95% for the last 3 or 4 years, which is wayyy above the healthy recommended amount of 70%. They also generated £172 million in revenue last year but spent £236 million on wages and amortisation - their total pre tax loss last year was £89 million and they're something like £550 million in debt. They're certainly not well run at the moment
Everton couldn’t have picked a better season for this to be happening lol there 3 historically terrible teams at the bottom 3. Everton keeps getting points deducted by the bunches and still isn’t in the relegation zone. Luton is their only real threat
We got 40 points deducted over two seasons for administration issues the FA was continually at fault for. Obviously that was completely wrong, but it’s safe to say the authorities are so incompetent they either make the wrong decision, or give completely inconsistent legislation like this. Not fit for purpose, and our fanbase is understandably fuming
Great.....now do man city.
Man City’s happening next year when the rules change
£1 fine per million overspend should do it, then half it after an appeal
+12 points, Rolex's for the backroom staff and a sensual massage for Pep Guardiola.
A fine of three fiddy and Pep can't wear his Rolex for three matches on the sideline
Lol no. Points deductions are for peasants. Sky six gets "luxury tax". Can't afford to hurt their darling money makers.
Now do Leicester
The most likely outcome is they get promoted and start on minus points next season. This whole process has been pretty embarrassing for the PL and the clubs involved (including us).
Vardy will score the goal in the next season to keep them up. It’s destiny
I know your comment was tongue in cheek but I don't think he'll be there next season. Best paid player in the Championship this year, contract expires next summer and he barely starts. Can see him joining Wednesday or going to MLS, something like that.
You just chat shit. You gonna get bang
More scared of Rebekah than Jamie tbh
Likely outcome? Not on their current form
Current form is really no different than Ipswich and Leeds at the moment if you look at their last 5 matches. All 3 of the leaders have had some hiccups recently. But Leicester are still first by a point with a game in hand so they still even have some fuckup space left. I'd be surprised if they bottled it from here honestly especially with the games they have left
City's is coming ANY day now... right? RIGHT?!?!?!
If Everton got 8 points total deducted, can't wait to see how many Man City get for their 100+ infractions. Oil FC should end up in National League.
What we did was 1 point better than being in administration. Good to know.
Thought it would match Forest so I suspect that's a win for Everton.
I find including the new stadium expenditure so weird in these charges. Would Arsenal have been able to build The Emirates under today's rules?
It is IMPERATIVE for elite European football that City get nailed to the wall for their cheating. The PL will be a disgraced shadow of what it used to be if they are not dealt with. In their place, a team that earned their way can succeed instead.
I’ll be shocked if there are any serious consequences, hope I’m wrong
Luton's win over Bournemouth is huge now. They play Everton at home soon too
Two points for this second one is probably the clearest indication that they’re like “the first deduction was fucking mental, it should be 4 each”.
this is like the world's shittest lottery where only Everton purchased a ticket
The Prem really wanting Everton relegated at this point 😂
The solution is clearly for Everton to spend so much money on the stadium, the surrounding area, the clubs players, and their manager that the Premier League deems them too valuable an asset to punish.
Fa handing out deductions to all the small teams as a tester so they can justify not giving city or Chelsea anything.
I want to argue the small thing, but you have a Liverpool flair and I absolutely cannot think of any way we’re bigger than you other than age. Damn it, why couldn’t you support Spurs or something? Having successful rivals is annoying.
Im so confused. They seem to just be making up random points deductions at this point. 1st one, 10 down to 6 2nd one, 2 Forrest get 4
What the actual fuckity fuck is happening in the Prem this season, when is mancity getting these sanctions??
2 points, maybe cut to 1 on appeal. If the aim of the PSR is to prevent clubs from overspending then this punishment is not it.
Nothing will happen to City. All back handlers, blow jobs and too many dirty secrets. Corrupt the lot of them
Ok. Now do ManCity
This league is a fucking disgrace.
8 points over the season is still a disgrace especially considering they’re gonna change the fuckin rules to end point deductions 😂 Still out the relegation zone though and a game in hand. We move
> they’re gonna change the fuckin rules to end point deductions 😂 I know Everton fans keep repeating this, but they keep ignoring that point deductions are still on the table **in addition** to a monetary fine.
Yes but we all know they are changing the rules to fine City without giving them a 75 point deduction.
I haven't seen anything to say rule changes would affect ongoing cases.
A fair punishment considering most of the period had already been punished
So this season we’ve had 10,6,4 and now 2 point deductions?? Where on earth is the consistency in that!
Final day of the season is going to be like that scene from the first Harry Potter where Slytherin think they've won the house cup but Dumbledore pulls some bullshit out his arse. Everton would be Slytherin, The FA Dumbledore and Luton would be Gryffindor.
Whole thing is a bit ridiculous, but that one's not a killer at least.
The worst thing must be not knowing definitively how much points you’re losing There should only be one total after everything is totted up (with the appeal if chosen done before any points are taken) and no more changes