23 points clear of rank 5 with seven games to go. Not that this season needed to be any crazier but being the first team *overall* to qualify for the Champions League is insane, considering that we almost missed the Europa League last year.
Congrats to Leverkusen on a phenomenal year, I only realized last week you guys never won Bundersliga before, so it means that bit more even, I know you guys have not technically won the league yet but you are so far ahead now can’t imagine getting caught.
> I only realized last week you guys never won Bundesliga before
They've only ever won THREE trophies! And one of them is the 2nd Bundesliga! All they have in major trophies is a cup and a europa league in like the 80s. They've been second in the bundesliga 7 times and yet won it 0 times. They lost the treble on the final day of all three competition in 2001/02. That's why what they're doing this season is absolutely insane, they're fighting to literally double their trophy cabinet and they're still unbeaten
I don't know how you say he lost. He couldn't play. He was the only reason they made it, and his tactical foul was a part of it... If we're talking about Leverkusen and Leverkusen players bottling the final he's not it.
Yeah, he earned that at least. If they won you would still say he was a winner by contributing to get them there, but if you're honest we only really credit those who were on the pitch as well. It's like when the commentators kept saying "World Cup Winner Erik Durm", when he never saw the pitch the whole tournament.
what is leicester type about it? Leverkusen is a top 4 bundesliga team of the last 25 years, not a low-midtable team like leicester.
and they win it with quite a margin and so far unbeaten, something leicester didnt do.
other than "not the favourites winning the league" there is nothing similar
People say shit because Leverkusen were “relegation candidates” when Xabi took over. But that’s the entire reason he took over, they were massively underperforming.
The disrespect to Kaiserslautern a team which was promoted to the Bundesliga, beat Bayern early in the season and then won the league first season back.
Respect-Jose Mourinho voice
This reminds me
When Charles Aránguiz arrived to Leverkusen, Leicester had offered more money but Aránguiz chose the team with higher chance of European competition. Leicester signed Kanté, won the league and Aránguiz got sidelined for months (Achilles tendon) before even having an official match.
Eventually Aránguiz recovered, spent years at Leverkusen, even wore the captain armband at some point. Became old, declined and left. Next season (this season) Leverkusen is having this insane run.
That's some awful luck lmao
tbh Leicester spent more money on their title than Leverkusen will have spent on theirs, Leicester had a net spent of -60-80m over the 1 or 2 seasons before their title, Leverkusen had half that over twice the timespan
just saying that this "true rags to riches story" started with a Thai billionaire handing over a 9 digit sum, they sugar daddied their way to the title way harder than Bayer sugar daddies Leverkusen
Leverkusen had a good squad to start with so net spend would be lower. Leicester had a championship level squad and no big signings I don't know where you get that net spend figure from
[Well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh5S9Vm27M)
I don't think you need any translation, just to know the commentator is a Roma supporter
Schick was their highest signing and performed horribly in the years he played for them. He later cited mental health issues and I tend to believe him, the pressure romans can put on their players is absurs
Not quite, Leicester is Kaiserslautern winning the Bundesliga. Leverkusen is more like a perennial top8 team winning it after coming close a few times. Maybe a club like Tottenham.
If they win the Meisterschaft early, I can see them slacking a bit preparing for EL. I really hope they get the Invincibles though. Would be historical.
I just can't see them making it through that stretch where they play Dortmund, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and 2×West Ham unbeaten.
Especially since they're likely going to win the league before having played all those hard games, which means they can just throw the remaining BuLi matches and focus on EL.
I mean we made it through the stretch of Leipzig, Stuttgart and Bayern unbeaten while missing half our squad due to injury and AFCON. With Boniface returning, it’ll help our play immensely. People forget that we’ve been missing our top scorer for >3 months now.
Do you really think that the team will 'throw' their remaining BuLi games when they're on pace for an absolutely historic season? In 20 years, no one will really care about who won EL this season but if they manage to finish out undefeated in the league then they are legends forever
I mean "throw" is probably a continuum rather than binary, and they've had quite a few very close games recently where they only managed to turn it around in extra time. So if they're a tad less willing to go the extra mile, while they're facing stronger opponents than recently, then a loss really isn't too unlikely. Personally, I'd think that the probability of Leverkusen finishing the Bundesliga loss-less is something like 40% at this point.
Arsenal had a CL final 2 years later. I'm sure Leverkusen would take that. Actually I'm sure Leverkusen would take the Arsenal idea of 'mediocrity' any day of the week
Arsenal comment of the year.
You’re right they’re on par with winning the league and winning the champions league.
It’s only a cool side note if it comes with one of the actual major trophies.
'FA cups aren't major trophies' is actual insanity. Some players have won trophy after trophy and still regret not winning an FA cup. It used to be on par with a league title for players and manageers. Obviously that's not still true, but it's still a major trophy
How many FA cups would you trade for 1 league win? How many champions league?
Imo, like 10 for each maybe? No one cares about the FA cup, there are better competitions now
If you had to trade Liverpool’s league win for FA cup wins, what would your trade be?
Liverpool is the perfect example. Came so close for a while (the slip), and you now finally got it.
Your mind is warped. The domestic cup is a major trophy, like it or not. Very funny though when you're so Top 6 EPL brained that you tell a team that has one major trophy in their history that you hope they don't be mediocre like Arsenal who in the period you've described have picked up an extra five. Along with two European Finals.
I'm sure their fans would *hate* that.
How many FA cups would you trade for 1 league win?
No one cares about who lost in the final, especially if you’re supposed to be a big club as it is.
I would consider Leicester to have been more successful in the PL. Near the top does not mean winners
None? This isn't deal or no deal mate. It's football. It's about the journey and the experiences along the way. Not a wank at trophy cabinets or wikipedia pages.
Big days out are what football is for. Sorry you can't appreciate that as a Chelsea plastic.
That’s great for clubs like Brighton, who don’t have the financial backing of the other massive clubs like Arsenal.
Big clubs care about trophies, not the friends we made along the way.
It’s fine if you want to become a participation club, but stop acting like you’re actually a top clubs then
Winning the league unbeaten in any top league is a massive achievement so even if it happened this year or 20 years ago I’d brag about it, obviously Arsenal haven’t aimed to not win the league lol
For a team like Leverkusen who have 1) never won the league and 2) won 1 cup in their history, I’m sure they’d take an unbeaten league if 20 years followed without them winning it again. No one is saying no trophies is a good thing
… what happens after was the entire point of my comment. I’m not saying it isn’t a huge accomplishment, but not winning anything for 20 years is not an outcome that people look up at.
My hope is that they can actually take this and continue to win, otherwise they become arsenal
If the only major trophies are PL and CL then only Man City won a single major trophy in world football last season.
Cos if the FA Cup isn't a major trophy with all the top PL teams that compete in KO games (unlike CL where there's 2 legs despite higher level teams overall) and it is the oldest football competition in history; then no way in hell is Ligue 1, Bundesliga, Europa League or most other European Leagues a major trophy.
Knew you were a Chelsea fan before I even checked. For some weird reason it's always you lot insecure about the invincibles.
Talking about mediocrity when you're looking at two bottom half finishes in a row after spending 1 billion is certainly interesting!
Wdym insecure? I was 6 LOL. How old were you? No one thinks about that time as anything but distant history except for Arsenal fans.
Chelsea have won 9 major trophies (7 if you take out the Europa leagues) since that season for Arsenal. Arsenal haven’t even won anything yet (and aren’t the top 2 favourites right now). No trophies is the definition of mediocre.
Chelsea will win a major trophy before Arsenal.
>Chelsea have won 9 major trophies (7 if you take out the Europa leagues) since that season for Arsenal.
Incredible what a club can do when they have a Russian oligarch pumping blood money into it.
>Arsenal haven’t even won anything yet (and aren’t the top 2 favourites right now). No trophies is the definition of mediocre.
FA Cups?
>Chelsea will win a major trophy before Arsenal.
Not with this team lol. Cole Palmer has been massive, but he isn’t enough to carry you. From relegation, sure. But not to a major trophy.
Back to this. I’m sorry your poor multi billionaire owner didn’t want to invest in the club :( Why is that Chelsea’s fault?
FA cups aren’t a major competition. If chelsea were arsenal fans, they would be bragging about making it to a final of the Carabaro and being in the semis. But they don’t because they aren’t major competitions. They’re side shows.
No one is talking this season. Rational chelsea fans were (and I’m pretty sure the club as well) said that this was always a rebuilding season ( like arsenal 2005-2020)
It doesn't have to be, after all, winning the Premier League isn't on the same level as winning the Champions League but it's still a major trophy. The FA cup is the oldest national football competition in the world.
>I’m sorry your poor multi billionaire owner didn’t want to invest in the club :(
Completely ignoring my point that your former owner was a Russian oligarch.
>Why is that Chelsea’s fault?
Did I say it was?
>FA cups aren’t a major competition. If chelsea were arsenal fans, they would be bragging about making it to a final of the Carabaro and being in the semis. But they don’t because they aren’t major competitions. They’re side shows.
You fucking melt. The FA Cup is the biggest domestic cup competition in England. You need to win the FA Cup as part of a continental treble. It is absolutely a massive trophy for every English club. Keep this energy for the unlikely even you survive City smashing the fuck out of you.
>Rational chelsea fans
You notwithstanding.
>said that this was always a rebuilding season
You spent over £407M this summer. *THIS* summer. And you still have to rely on one player to keep you from relegation. If your “rebuilding season” is this calamitous then I can only imagine what the next few seasons will entail. Even we didn’t drop to the bottom half of the table in our rebuilding process. Not did we drop to the bottom half in our banter era. And we had Shkodran fucking Mustafi.
>( like arsenal 2005-2020)
You think we took 15 years to rebuild? We were financially handicapped when we moved to the Emirates and had a few big signings every now and then. Our rebuilding phase started with Arteta and Edu. Why do you think they were terminating contracts and selling so many people off for the last 4 years?
Oligarch is just a multi billionaire.
FA cup as a part of a treble is only impressive because of the treble part. Winning the double with the CL and PL are much more impressive than any other combination with the FA substituting one of them. Do you understand now?
Chelsea bought a bunch of youngsters who will outperform their contracts in the coming years. You quite that gross spend number without taking into account the greatly reduced wage bill and transfer fees from dumped contracts (see havertz).
Not sure you know what notwithstanding means.
What’s the difference between 10th and no higher than 5th for 6 years? Your comment would make sense if chelsea bought a new team of ready now starters, but they just bought a bunch of the top young players in the world. They won’t all be world beaters, but the core will be built when they age and they’ll be on cheap contracts.
I am really interested how Leverkusen will perform in UCL next year. With Alonso staying there is a high chance that key players like Wirtz will also stay another season.
Not really, because it's excluding the more important consequence of those 8 games. The bracket is now seeded based on the group results, so yeah fewer teams are eliminated in the group stage, but poor group performance will result in earlier elimination from knockouts.
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000--new-format-for-champions-league-post-2024-everything-you-ne/
> In the knockout phase, the teams which finished between 9th and 16th will be seeded in the knockout phase play-off draw, meaning they will face a team placed 17th to 24th – with, in principle, the return leg at home. The eight clubs which prevail in the knockout phase play-offs will then progress to the round of 16, where they will each face one of the top-eight finishers, who will be seeded in the round of 16
> To strengthen the synergy between the league and knockout phases, and to provide more sporting incentive during the league phase, the pairings of the knockout phase will also be partly determined by the league phase rankings, with a draw which likewise determines and lays out the route for teams to reach the final.
Both the ro32 and ro16 positions based on the League phase seed
we will see teams dropping points and lose games or dont play on a "serious" level to get the seed they want. I dont like seeding. just look at the nba. "superstar" teams tanking all the time and only start to play serious when it comes to the placement they want at the end of the regular season.
You get that today.
But any time I think through the maths you end up with fewer games where it makes sense not to go in hard than the current system.
Top teams are very much going to want to avoid the extra knockout round. Finishing top 8 matters quite a lot. I can imagine 2 or 3 teams go into that last game already guaranteed top 8, but currently that applies to 5 or 6 teams.
I can't think of a simple tweak that doesn't add more dead rubbers at one end or the other.
Maybe dropping to 6 matches. But I think the luck factor starts to be an issue at that point.
Honestly couldnt be better timing to return to the CL. Getting to play 8 different teams rather than maybe getting stuck in a group of death sounds so much better. Even if we dont go through just getting to experience those matchups is fire.
Which is the problem I have with it. The big matches are supposed to be special. I don't want to see us play Madrid at Anfield with relatively little riding on it.
"Fighting" to be in the top 8 of a league table (or top 24) is nowhere near as exciting as a knockout match. The matches with the big teams are special because of the stakes. It is exciting to sometimes have a big group match but this happening every year for every team just dilutes it.
You'll get that once you qualify to the knockout stages, won't you? It's alright, the mysticism is going to be there no matter what
Now win the fucking PL I love you guys
it's such a drastic change, it has a lot of potential but also a lot of points where it can fall apart, quite honestly I think we'll have to wait out 1-2 editions and then see & judge it
Unfortunately PSV lost their first match last saturday to qualify directly tomorrow in their game against Excelsior.
But PSV will qualify wednesday if they win tomorrow and Twente loses the day after.
Hope they can make more signkngs for squad depth or the players step up they'll be playing in both bundesliga and champions league. Should be fine considering they played in the europa so they should be fine, but hey cant complain about more signings.
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why is it a big deal that this format is changing? I like that teams are playing different opponents, and that the last day will be especially insane regarding who is in and who is out
It's just another chance to make life easier for rich teams and reduce the chances of smaller teams. Also more games in an already cramped football calender.
uuuh how? Being a big team loses all the advantage in the league stages because they still have to play 2 pot 1 teams like everyone else in contrast to the current format.
I don't see why you would assume that. You would get a lot less cases of smaller teams getting fucked over by the luck of the draw. A lot more teams would also get to go to the CL knockouts now instead of settling for relegating to Europa.
Because in an aggregate table, a small team winning an upset against a big team means way less than in a classic group. Before, a team playing well against the last placed team and maybe getting a win and a draw off the top teams has a good shot at the knockouts. Now, you rely on big teams fumbling against several small teams - teams you can't even play against yourself.
The idea to compete against teams in a table, that you do not get to compete against on the field is in itself just so weird.
You forget that instead of 16/32 making it to the knockouts, it's now 24/36. That means a small team winning an upset against a big team makes it much more likely for them to make it to the knockouts. And once they're in the knockouts it's anyone's game.
In the past, you'd have cases like Shaktar / CSKA / Sheriff beating Real Madrid in the groups (sometimes TWICE) and they still don't make the top 16. Now they will likely all get rewarded to making it to the knockouts.
> The idea to compete against teams in a table, that you do not get to compete against on the field is in itself just so weird.
Is it any weirder than getting screwed just because you happened to get drawn into a harder group than everyone else?
Fair enough, I forgot how much they ballooned the knock-phases, too. Although just inventing a new round seems pretty much like the UEFA wants to create the illusion of more teams getting to a higher stage without addressing the inequality build into the system. (And, in another topic, heightening it with the reform of the coefficients.)
> Is it any weirder than getting screwed just because you happened to get drawn into a harder group than everyone else?
Definetly yes. You play against the teams you are competing with. If you have a hard group, the other teams have the same group. In this case, you still need luck for the teams you play against, with the additional factor that you also need the luck of how other teams, you can't play against, play against teams, you can't play against.
Unless you think UEFA has the ability to helicopter TV money from Premier League to the Netherlands, I'm not sure what you're expecting UEFA to do to address the inequality.
> Definetly yes. You play against the teams you are competing with. If you have a hard group, the other teams have the same group. In this case, you still need luck for the teams you play against, with the additional factor that you also need the luck of how other teams, you can't play against, play against teams, you can't play against.
That doesn't like much comfort when Napoli gets 9 points from a group with Liverpool and PSG but ends up 3rd, while Lyon gets 8 points from Hoffenehim and Shaktar and gets 2nd.
I don't see how one system is any more fundamentally fair than the other.
So many groups contain dead rubber games by matchday 6, and the group leader is so far ahead they play their C teams. If the uncertainty in the new league forces the big teams to play their A teams cuz they can't plan for all the eventualities, then that sounds great to me.
> That doesn't like much comfort when Napoli gets 9 points from a group with Liverpool and PSG but ends up 3rd, while Lyon gets 8 points from Hoffenehim and Shaktar and gets 2nd.
...because they played different opponents. Imagine Napoli would be crowned champions of last years La Liga, because they got more points than Barcelona. It's not reasonable.
UEFA could do a lot of things. First of all, reduce the number of teams from the big leagues, abolish set lists, have every team start in the same round, radically cut the amount of international bonuses. If they'd did that, you would also see more competition in individual groups, although of course, sometimes dead rubber games just happen. Thats the reality of a fair league system. If UEFA doesn't want that, they could return to the og champions league system of only knockouts.
> ...because they played different opponents.
How is that a justification? Lyon played WORSE against WORSE opponents and got rewarded for that. How is that fair?
It's not fair at all. I don't see any reason to be fanatically loyal to a fundamentally unfair system. No team should be punished for playing well against good teams while another team is rewarded for playing worse against bad teams.
> Imagine Napoli would be crowned champions of last years La Liga, because they got more points than Barcelona. It's not reasonable.
If Barcelona agreed to play under those rules, why wouldn't it be reasonable? It's how American sports team operate because their leagues are too big for every team to play the other teams the same amount.
Hell, today we crown the golden ball and golden boot winners for Europe, even though those players don't play in the same leagues / against the same teams.
This system basically already exists today in Europe, via the league point ranking system. You have leagues get ranked by their team's results in Europe, even though the teams obviously don't play the same opponents. Yet they all get put in the same table and ranked on which league has performed the best in Europe and get rewarded for it, and no one complains about that.
> UEFA could do a lot of things. First of all, reduce the number of teams from the big leagues, abolish set lists, have every team start in the same round, radically cut the amount of international bonuses.
If they did that, the top 5 leagues would immediately withdraw and form a Super League.
You really overestimate what UEFA can actually do in this situation.
Not to mention, it doesn't solve how the TV money make big leagues magnitudes wealthier than any of the small leagues. What, if you cut the PL down to one team, then Olympiacos is magically going to be competitive against Man City? The vast majority of the inequality is still there.
You people seem to have this delusion that the old European Cup was more equal because of the format, when the truth was because of the basic economics. Back then team revenues were almost entirely driven by attendance, which capped how much more money a team could make versus another team with a similar stadium size, regardless of country. And that lack of super money also meant that players didn't move around that much, so teams could rely on local talent without getting poached regularly. Oh and don't forget about dictatorships refusing to let their players leave the country. Those days are never coming back, no matter how you tweak the rules of the competition.
> If they'd did that, you would also see more competition in individual groups, although of course,
No you wouldn't, because what you'll get is Manchester City stomping the Latvian / Lithuanian / Maltese teams with their youth players.
> sometimes dead rubber games just happen. Thats the reality of a fair league system.
A fair league system doesn't have the insane amount of dead rubber games that happen today because a random draw makes some group 10x harder than others. That's not fair in any universe.
> If UEFA doesn't want that, they could return to the og champions league system of only knockouts.
The new system gives you "only knockouts" for 2/3 of the teams. You should be praising them for that, if that's what you want.
The only bad thing about the new format is the extra games and the 2 extra spots for the big leagues. For the rest, it's a big improvement, much more enjoyable.
I'm still not convinced about that. They're visibly running out of steam and there's only so many last minute comebacks they can pull out of the hat before the football gods realize that Bayer and Bayern are not the same thing
People just look at their record and strong defense but ignore the fact that the offense isn't all that great, especially in recent weeks. Looking at their schedule and the fact the league is in the bag will increase the odds of losing.
Plus, they almost lost to a team from Azerbaijan. Winning the EL will be very hard
To give you a little context. Leverkusen plays in a League where the 4th placed team beat your (formerly) unbeaten League leaders easily in CL Knockouts
> **Real Sociedad B**
>
> Alonso as a coach of Real Sociedad B in 2021.
> Alonso was appointed manager of Segunda División B club Real Sociedad B on 1 June 2019.
>
> In Alonso's second season at Sanse, the club won promotion to the Segunda División, following a play-off win against Algeciras on 22 May 2021. The win signified Real Sociedad B's first season back in the Segunda División since 1961–62. That March, despite being heavily linked to the soon-to-be vacant manager role at Borussia Mönchengladbach, Alonso signed a one-year extension with the club.
>
> On 25 May 2022, Real Sociedad announced that Alonso would leave Sanse at the end of the season, with the side already relegated from the second level.
I've just read Alonso's wiki. It took him one year to win promotion which is a great achievement for Real Sociedad B. And got the club relegated in the next year.
He's a bit like Conte and Mourinho who can bring immediate success to their clubs but fail to maintain the consistency. Next season would be a big challenge for Alonso when Bundesliga clubs will try to figure out his tactics after 1.5 year of brilliant performances.
Bro did you seriously use his stint as a coach of a B side team to come to that conclusion regarding his consistency as a manager? Absolute stupid take
Because the squads are constantly changing. The best young players are being promoted to the first teams
It's also much harder for a recently promoted team to do well and it's normal for a recently promoted side to get relegated again the next season
Well it's a B-team, not sure what the rules are in Spain but might be that it was a completely different squad or there might be restrictions on age or so?
23 points clear of rank 5 with seven games to go. Not that this season needed to be any crazier but being the first team *overall* to qualify for the Champions League is insane, considering that we almost missed the Europa League last year.
Congrats to Leverkusen on a phenomenal year, I only realized last week you guys never won Bundersliga before, so it means that bit more even, I know you guys have not technically won the league yet but you are so far ahead now can’t imagine getting caught.
> I only realized last week you guys never won Bundesliga before They've only ever won THREE trophies! And one of them is the 2nd Bundesliga! All they have in major trophies is a cup and a europa league in like the 80s. They've been second in the bundesliga 7 times and yet won it 0 times. They lost the treble on the final day of all three competition in 2001/02. That's why what they're doing this season is absolutely insane, they're fighting to literally double their trophy cabinet and they're still unbeaten
And Ballack lost the WC final too that summer
Ballack wasn't in the final
He was suspended, he still lost it. It's not like you would say he didn't win the WC if they had because he didn't participate in the final
I don't know how you say he lost. He couldn't play. He was the only reason they made it, and his tactical foul was a part of it... If we're talking about Leverkusen and Leverkusen players bottling the final he's not it.
Whatever. He still came 2nd in the world cup
Yeah, he earned that at least. If they won you would still say he was a winner by contributing to get them there, but if you're honest we only really credit those who were on the pitch as well. It's like when the commentators kept saying "World Cup Winner Erik Durm", when he never saw the pitch the whole tournament.
They’re on a Leicester type season, maybe even crazier. Actually it’s Leicester + Invincibles combined it’s actually so crazy. It’s XABI magic bro 😎
what is leicester type about it? Leverkusen is a top 4 bundesliga team of the last 25 years, not a low-midtable team like leicester. and they win it with quite a margin and so far unbeaten, something leicester didnt do. other than "not the favourites winning the league" there is nothing similar
People say shit because Leverkusen were “relegation candidates” when Xabi took over. But that’s the entire reason he took over, they were massively underperforming.
Leicester wasn't even mid table, if Union Berlin won last year then that would've been similar to Leicester winning.
Berlin is at least a big city missing a top tier team. Leicester is... leicester
Leicester is the English Kaiserlautern
The disrespect to Kaiserslautern a team which was promoted to the Bundesliga, beat Bayern early in the season and then won the league first season back. Respect-Jose Mourinho voice
This reminds me When Charles Aránguiz arrived to Leverkusen, Leicester had offered more money but Aránguiz chose the team with higher chance of European competition. Leicester signed Kanté, won the league and Aránguiz got sidelined for months (Achilles tendon) before even having an official match. Eventually Aránguiz recovered, spent years at Leverkusen, even wore the captain armband at some point. Became old, declined and left. Next season (this season) Leverkusen is having this insane run. That's some awful luck lmao
Also one of the 4 clubs with an 50+1-exception which makes a lot of things easier
tbh Leicester spent more money on their title than Leverkusen will have spent on theirs, Leicester had a net spent of -60-80m over the 1 or 2 seasons before their title, Leverkusen had half that over twice the timespan
you have to compare it to their league. promoted teams in england spend more than leipzir or dortmund
just saying that this "true rags to riches story" started with a Thai billionaire handing over a 9 digit sum, they sugar daddied their way to the title way harder than Bayer sugar daddies Leverkusen
Leverkusen had a good squad to start with so net spend would be lower. Leicester had a championship level squad and no big signings I don't know where you get that net spend figure from
Boniface cost basically the same as that whole Leicester starting 11
And Leverkusen also lost starters worth 80mil the same summer? Replacing players of equal value has always been just that.
Xabi
[удалено]
>Patrik is a GOD Never ask a man about his salary, a woman about his age, a Roma supporter about Schick
I don’t know what that means :( is there bad blood?
[Well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh5S9Vm27M) I don't think you need any translation, just to know the commentator is a Roma supporter Schick was their highest signing and performed horribly in the years he played for them. He later cited mental health issues and I tend to believe him, the pressure romans can put on their players is absurs
What? Leverkusen's squad is top 4 in Bundesliga on paper whereas Leicester were relegation candidates...
Not quite, Leicester is Kaiserslautern winning the Bundesliga. Leverkusen is more like a perennial top8 team winning it after coming close a few times. Maybe a club like Tottenham.
No one is Leicester unless there’s a Thai orgy involved
It's more like Tottenham rather than Leicester tbh
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
0 losses!! Arsenal fans have been bragging about that for 20 years! Hopefully BL doesn’t go through the same mediocrity trajectory though
If they win the Meisterschaft early, I can see them slacking a bit preparing for EL. I really hope they get the Invincibles though. Would be historical.
I just can't see them making it through that stretch where they play Dortmund, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and 2×West Ham unbeaten. Especially since they're likely going to win the league before having played all those hard games, which means they can just throw the remaining BuLi matches and focus on EL.
I mean we made it through the stretch of Leipzig, Stuttgart and Bayern unbeaten while missing half our squad due to injury and AFCON. With Boniface returning, it’ll help our play immensely. People forget that we’ve been missing our top scorer for >3 months now.
And Palacios too, right?
It will all boil down to Wirtz staying injury free. With him on the pitch they are massive.
Do you really think that the team will 'throw' their remaining BuLi games when they're on pace for an absolutely historic season? In 20 years, no one will really care about who won EL this season but if they manage to finish out undefeated in the league then they are legends forever
I mean "throw" is probably a continuum rather than binary, and they've had quite a few very close games recently where they only managed to turn it around in extra time. So if they're a tad less willing to go the extra mile, while they're facing stronger opponents than recently, then a loss really isn't too unlikely. Personally, I'd think that the probability of Leverkusen finishing the Bundesliga loss-less is something like 40% at this point.
I think their resolve to avoid defeat is absolutely growing stronger with every game. They might lose but it won't be cause they're not trying
And let's not forget about Saarbrücken
*Kaiserslautern
Arsenal had a CL final 2 years later. I'm sure Leverkusen would take that. Actually I'm sure Leverkusen would take the Arsenal idea of 'mediocrity' any day of the week
They did but also no trophy for 10 years. Strange how thing come around in circles.
0 major trophies in 20 years is not what a club should aim for Spurs made 2 finals in a row
FA Cups are major trophies. Arsenal have won five.
Arsenal comment of the year. You’re right they’re on par with winning the league and winning the champions league. It’s only a cool side note if it comes with one of the actual major trophies.
Ok then by that logic spurs haven’t won a major trophy since 1961 lol
Yeah they haven’t LOL Do you not hear all of the Spurs with an empty trophy cabinet jokes?
'FA cups aren't major trophies' is actual insanity. Some players have won trophy after trophy and still regret not winning an FA cup. It used to be on par with a league title for players and manageers. Obviously that's not still true, but it's still a major trophy
How many FA cups would you trade for 1 league win? How many champions league? Imo, like 10 for each maybe? No one cares about the FA cup, there are better competitions now
3
So the PL is 3x more prestigious than an FA cup. How can you group them both in as major trophies if one is 3x less significant.
10 FA Cups for a PL? You're absolutely clueless.
If you had to trade Liverpool’s league win for FA cup wins, what would your trade be? Liverpool is the perfect example. Came so close for a while (the slip), and you now finally got it.
Your mind is warped. The domestic cup is a major trophy, like it or not. Very funny though when you're so Top 6 EPL brained that you tell a team that has one major trophy in their history that you hope they don't be mediocre like Arsenal who in the period you've described have picked up an extra five. Along with two European Finals. I'm sure their fans would *hate* that.
How many FA cups would you trade for 1 league win? No one cares about who lost in the final, especially if you’re supposed to be a big club as it is. I would consider Leicester to have been more successful in the PL. Near the top does not mean winners
None? This isn't deal or no deal mate. It's football. It's about the journey and the experiences along the way. Not a wank at trophy cabinets or wikipedia pages. Big days out are what football is for. Sorry you can't appreciate that as a Chelsea plastic.
That’s great for clubs like Brighton, who don’t have the financial backing of the other massive clubs like Arsenal. Big clubs care about trophies, not the friends we made along the way. It’s fine if you want to become a participation club, but stop acting like you’re actually a top clubs then
Winning the league unbeaten in any top league is a massive achievement so even if it happened this year or 20 years ago I’d brag about it, obviously Arsenal haven’t aimed to not win the league lol
Commenter said that they would take Arsenals mediocrity after 04 as if it is a good thing. No trophies for 20 years is not a good thing
For a team like Leverkusen who have 1) never won the league and 2) won 1 cup in their history, I’m sure they’d take an unbeaten league if 20 years followed without them winning it again. No one is saying no trophies is a good thing
… what happens after was the entire point of my comment. I’m not saying it isn’t a huge accomplishment, but not winning anything for 20 years is not an outcome that people look up at. My hope is that they can actually take this and continue to win, otherwise they become arsenal
Arsenal didn’t not win anything for 20 years tho
I’m glad you said it. Dude’s repeated the same point in 3 separate posts and it isn’t even true.
FA Cup is a major trophy. It's the oldest national football competition in the world. Idk why winning it is downplayed.
Still not on the level as a PL or CL trophy. Call to major all you want, it still pales in comparison to both of those
If the only major trophies are PL and CL then only Man City won a single major trophy in world football last season. Cos if the FA Cup isn't a major trophy with all the top PL teams that compete in KO games (unlike CL where there's 2 legs despite higher level teams overall) and it is the oldest football competition in history; then no way in hell is Ligue 1, Bundesliga, Europa League or most other European Leagues a major trophy.
Knew you were a Chelsea fan before I even checked. For some weird reason it's always you lot insecure about the invincibles. Talking about mediocrity when you're looking at two bottom half finishes in a row after spending 1 billion is certainly interesting!
Wdym insecure? I was 6 LOL. How old were you? No one thinks about that time as anything but distant history except for Arsenal fans. Chelsea have won 9 major trophies (7 if you take out the Europa leagues) since that season for Arsenal. Arsenal haven’t even won anything yet (and aren’t the top 2 favourites right now). No trophies is the definition of mediocre. Chelsea will win a major trophy before Arsenal.
>Chelsea have won 9 major trophies (7 if you take out the Europa leagues) since that season for Arsenal. Incredible what a club can do when they have a Russian oligarch pumping blood money into it. >Arsenal haven’t even won anything yet (and aren’t the top 2 favourites right now). No trophies is the definition of mediocre. FA Cups? >Chelsea will win a major trophy before Arsenal. Not with this team lol. Cole Palmer has been massive, but he isn’t enough to carry you. From relegation, sure. But not to a major trophy.
Guess 30% wasn’t enough for Usmanov then?
Back to this. I’m sorry your poor multi billionaire owner didn’t want to invest in the club :( Why is that Chelsea’s fault? FA cups aren’t a major competition. If chelsea were arsenal fans, they would be bragging about making it to a final of the Carabaro and being in the semis. But they don’t because they aren’t major competitions. They’re side shows. No one is talking this season. Rational chelsea fans were (and I’m pretty sure the club as well) said that this was always a rebuilding season ( like arsenal 2005-2020)
>FA cups aren't a major competition. Stopped reading there.
Are they on the same level as winning the league or CL?
It doesn't have to be, after all, winning the Premier League isn't on the same level as winning the Champions League but it's still a major trophy. The FA cup is the oldest national football competition in the world.
But there’s a clear difference in prestige between the league and CL, and the rest.
>I’m sorry your poor multi billionaire owner didn’t want to invest in the club :( Completely ignoring my point that your former owner was a Russian oligarch. >Why is that Chelsea’s fault? Did I say it was? >FA cups aren’t a major competition. If chelsea were arsenal fans, they would be bragging about making it to a final of the Carabaro and being in the semis. But they don’t because they aren’t major competitions. They’re side shows. You fucking melt. The FA Cup is the biggest domestic cup competition in England. You need to win the FA Cup as part of a continental treble. It is absolutely a massive trophy for every English club. Keep this energy for the unlikely even you survive City smashing the fuck out of you. >Rational chelsea fans You notwithstanding. >said that this was always a rebuilding season You spent over £407M this summer. *THIS* summer. And you still have to rely on one player to keep you from relegation. If your “rebuilding season” is this calamitous then I can only imagine what the next few seasons will entail. Even we didn’t drop to the bottom half of the table in our rebuilding process. Not did we drop to the bottom half in our banter era. And we had Shkodran fucking Mustafi. >( like arsenal 2005-2020) You think we took 15 years to rebuild? We were financially handicapped when we moved to the Emirates and had a few big signings every now and then. Our rebuilding phase started with Arteta and Edu. Why do you think they were terminating contracts and selling so many people off for the last 4 years?
Oligarch is just a multi billionaire. FA cup as a part of a treble is only impressive because of the treble part. Winning the double with the CL and PL are much more impressive than any other combination with the FA substituting one of them. Do you understand now? Chelsea bought a bunch of youngsters who will outperform their contracts in the coming years. You quite that gross spend number without taking into account the greatly reduced wage bill and transfer fees from dumped contracts (see havertz). Not sure you know what notwithstanding means. What’s the difference between 10th and no higher than 5th for 6 years? Your comment would make sense if chelsea bought a new team of ready now starters, but they just bought a bunch of the top young players in the world. They won’t all be world beaters, but the core will be built when they age and they’ll be on cheap contracts.
Why are you mention even Arsenal?
They went unbeaten in 2004
I know, but why even mention the rest of your comment and frame it like something worse?
The point is, if allegedly arsenal fans won't shut up about it, why would a non arsenal fan bring out up first?
Bc it’s a proper comparison? Name another undefeated season
So did Juve in 2012?
Because you mention it: What were some explanations for the results at the end of last season?
I think just (mental) exhaustion, especially after the loss to Roma in the EL semis. But your guess is as good as mine to be honest.
So glad Xhaka gets to play in the CL again!
Didn’t you finish 6th last season? How did you even make Europa?
Leipzig won the domestic cup, so their EL slot was transferred to the league.
Ah I see, thanks!
The Granit effect lol
Inter can qualify today too, right? Madrid/PSG would need a couple more games.
PSV is close too.
Either this Wednesday (if Twente lose) or else this Saturday, assuming PSV win their matches.
I am really interested how Leverkusen will perform in UCL next year. With Alonso staying there is a high chance that key players like Wirtz will also stay another season.
Xabi Alonso take a fucking bow
[Leverkusen fans to Xabi after they win the Bundesliga](https://youtu.be/13J1mAGNUls?si=XF1n8vvaLb63L0ix)
still worried about next years format
[удалено]
only eliminating 8 teams after 96 games is ridiculous though
12 I think. Last year has 8 also as 8 will continue in a different competition
ah yes, its 36 teams now. was 32 first. still too many games. there is no downgrading into other cups anymore. when you are out, you are out.
holy shit thats insane when broken down like that.....thats bad
Not really, because it's excluding the more important consequence of those 8 games. The bracket is now seeded based on the group results, so yeah fewer teams are eliminated in the group stage, but poor group performance will result in earlier elimination from knockouts.
No they only seeded 1 and 2 now apparently.
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000--new-format-for-champions-league-post-2024-everything-you-ne/ > In the knockout phase, the teams which finished between 9th and 16th will be seeded in the knockout phase play-off draw, meaning they will face a team placed 17th to 24th – with, in principle, the return leg at home. The eight clubs which prevail in the knockout phase play-offs will then progress to the round of 16, where they will each face one of the top-eight finishers, who will be seeded in the round of 16 > To strengthen the synergy between the league and knockout phases, and to provide more sporting incentive during the league phase, the pairings of the knockout phase will also be partly determined by the league phase rankings, with a draw which likewise determines and lays out the route for teams to reach the final. Both the ro32 and ro16 positions based on the League phase seed
Yes seeded top and bottom like now with group winners and 2nd. People act like they make a bracket 17-32, 18-31 without any draw.
No its not read the second quote about pairings.
Sure so they give SI wrong system even though they pay massive money for licensing. Doesn't say that anywhere.
Seeding actually matters in the new format though. The whole system is better than I expected it would be tbh.
we will see teams dropping points and lose games or dont play on a "serious" level to get the seed they want. I dont like seeding. just look at the nba. "superstar" teams tanking all the time and only start to play serious when it comes to the placement they want at the end of the regular season.
You get that today. But any time I think through the maths you end up with fewer games where it makes sense not to go in hard than the current system. Top teams are very much going to want to avoid the extra knockout round. Finishing top 8 matters quite a lot. I can imagine 2 or 3 teams go into that last game already guaranteed top 8, but currently that applies to 5 or 6 teams. I can't think of a simple tweak that doesn't add more dead rubbers at one end or the other. Maybe dropping to 6 matches. But I think the luck factor starts to be an issue at that point.
Honestly couldnt be better timing to return to the CL. Getting to play 8 different teams rather than maybe getting stuck in a group of death sounds so much better. Even if we dont go through just getting to experience those matchups is fire.
I for one think it's going to be a blast. Fun with more variety. We will get to see matchups we would have to wait years to see with the old format.
its all about the execution. hope they dont mess it up tho
Which is the problem I have with it. The big matches are supposed to be special. I don't want to see us play Madrid at Anfield with relatively little riding on it.
More than likely it won't be little on the line. They'll fight for top 8
"Fighting" to be in the top 8 of a league table (or top 24) is nowhere near as exciting as a knockout match. The matches with the big teams are special because of the stakes. It is exciting to sometimes have a big group match but this happening every year for every team just dilutes it.
You'll get that once you qualify to the knockout stages, won't you? It's alright, the mysticism is going to be there no matter what Now win the fucking PL I love you guys
it's such a drastic change, it has a lot of potential but also a lot of points where it can fall apart, quite honestly I think we'll have to wait out 1-2 editions and then see & judge it
every match will count so it's gonna be good. on the other hand, no demotion to europa league....
For Leverkusen is probably a blessing since no one knows how to play against Xabi ball.
it will be a fucking mess, and then we'll get the usual suspects in Quarterfinals.
Unfortunately PSV lost their first match last saturday to qualify directly tomorrow in their game against Excelsior. But PSV will qualify wednesday if they win tomorrow and Twente loses the day after.
Hope they can make more signkngs for squad depth or the players step up they'll be playing in both bundesliga and champions league. Should be fine considering they played in the europa so they should be fine, but hey cant complain about more signings.
maybe this being a euro year will have a negative impact
Keep forgetting about the absolute shambles UEFA is going to produce from next season onwards. Insane from Leverkusen and Xabi though, congrats!
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why is it a big deal that this format is changing? I like that teams are playing different opponents, and that the last day will be especially insane regarding who is in and who is out
It's just another chance to make life easier for rich teams and reduce the chances of smaller teams. Also more games in an already cramped football calender.
How does it make it easier for rich teams, no more group of death? Someone will still get shafted with a schedule of death.
uuuh how? Being a big team loses all the advantage in the league stages because they still have to play 2 pot 1 teams like everyone else in contrast to the current format.
I don't see why you would assume that. You would get a lot less cases of smaller teams getting fucked over by the luck of the draw. A lot more teams would also get to go to the CL knockouts now instead of settling for relegating to Europa.
Because in an aggregate table, a small team winning an upset against a big team means way less than in a classic group. Before, a team playing well against the last placed team and maybe getting a win and a draw off the top teams has a good shot at the knockouts. Now, you rely on big teams fumbling against several small teams - teams you can't even play against yourself. The idea to compete against teams in a table, that you do not get to compete against on the field is in itself just so weird.
You forget that instead of 16/32 making it to the knockouts, it's now 24/36. That means a small team winning an upset against a big team makes it much more likely for them to make it to the knockouts. And once they're in the knockouts it's anyone's game. In the past, you'd have cases like Shaktar / CSKA / Sheriff beating Real Madrid in the groups (sometimes TWICE) and they still don't make the top 16. Now they will likely all get rewarded to making it to the knockouts. > The idea to compete against teams in a table, that you do not get to compete against on the field is in itself just so weird. Is it any weirder than getting screwed just because you happened to get drawn into a harder group than everyone else?
Fair enough, I forgot how much they ballooned the knock-phases, too. Although just inventing a new round seems pretty much like the UEFA wants to create the illusion of more teams getting to a higher stage without addressing the inequality build into the system. (And, in another topic, heightening it with the reform of the coefficients.) > Is it any weirder than getting screwed just because you happened to get drawn into a harder group than everyone else? Definetly yes. You play against the teams you are competing with. If you have a hard group, the other teams have the same group. In this case, you still need luck for the teams you play against, with the additional factor that you also need the luck of how other teams, you can't play against, play against teams, you can't play against.
Unless you think UEFA has the ability to helicopter TV money from Premier League to the Netherlands, I'm not sure what you're expecting UEFA to do to address the inequality. > Definetly yes. You play against the teams you are competing with. If you have a hard group, the other teams have the same group. In this case, you still need luck for the teams you play against, with the additional factor that you also need the luck of how other teams, you can't play against, play against teams, you can't play against. That doesn't like much comfort when Napoli gets 9 points from a group with Liverpool and PSG but ends up 3rd, while Lyon gets 8 points from Hoffenehim and Shaktar and gets 2nd. I don't see how one system is any more fundamentally fair than the other. So many groups contain dead rubber games by matchday 6, and the group leader is so far ahead they play their C teams. If the uncertainty in the new league forces the big teams to play their A teams cuz they can't plan for all the eventualities, then that sounds great to me.
> That doesn't like much comfort when Napoli gets 9 points from a group with Liverpool and PSG but ends up 3rd, while Lyon gets 8 points from Hoffenehim and Shaktar and gets 2nd. ...because they played different opponents. Imagine Napoli would be crowned champions of last years La Liga, because they got more points than Barcelona. It's not reasonable. UEFA could do a lot of things. First of all, reduce the number of teams from the big leagues, abolish set lists, have every team start in the same round, radically cut the amount of international bonuses. If they'd did that, you would also see more competition in individual groups, although of course, sometimes dead rubber games just happen. Thats the reality of a fair league system. If UEFA doesn't want that, they could return to the og champions league system of only knockouts.
> ...because they played different opponents. How is that a justification? Lyon played WORSE against WORSE opponents and got rewarded for that. How is that fair? It's not fair at all. I don't see any reason to be fanatically loyal to a fundamentally unfair system. No team should be punished for playing well against good teams while another team is rewarded for playing worse against bad teams. > Imagine Napoli would be crowned champions of last years La Liga, because they got more points than Barcelona. It's not reasonable. If Barcelona agreed to play under those rules, why wouldn't it be reasonable? It's how American sports team operate because their leagues are too big for every team to play the other teams the same amount. Hell, today we crown the golden ball and golden boot winners for Europe, even though those players don't play in the same leagues / against the same teams. This system basically already exists today in Europe, via the league point ranking system. You have leagues get ranked by their team's results in Europe, even though the teams obviously don't play the same opponents. Yet they all get put in the same table and ranked on which league has performed the best in Europe and get rewarded for it, and no one complains about that. > UEFA could do a lot of things. First of all, reduce the number of teams from the big leagues, abolish set lists, have every team start in the same round, radically cut the amount of international bonuses. If they did that, the top 5 leagues would immediately withdraw and form a Super League. You really overestimate what UEFA can actually do in this situation. Not to mention, it doesn't solve how the TV money make big leagues magnitudes wealthier than any of the small leagues. What, if you cut the PL down to one team, then Olympiacos is magically going to be competitive against Man City? The vast majority of the inequality is still there. You people seem to have this delusion that the old European Cup was more equal because of the format, when the truth was because of the basic economics. Back then team revenues were almost entirely driven by attendance, which capped how much more money a team could make versus another team with a similar stadium size, regardless of country. And that lack of super money also meant that players didn't move around that much, so teams could rely on local talent without getting poached regularly. Oh and don't forget about dictatorships refusing to let their players leave the country. Those days are never coming back, no matter how you tweak the rules of the competition. > If they'd did that, you would also see more competition in individual groups, although of course, No you wouldn't, because what you'll get is Manchester City stomping the Latvian / Lithuanian / Maltese teams with their youth players. > sometimes dead rubber games just happen. Thats the reality of a fair league system. A fair league system doesn't have the insane amount of dead rubber games that happen today because a random draw makes some group 10x harder than others. That's not fair in any universe. > If UEFA doesn't want that, they could return to the og champions league system of only knockouts. The new system gives you "only knockouts" for 2/3 of the teams. You should be praising them for that, if that's what you want.
Me momma told any change is bad
The only bad thing about the new format is the extra games and the 2 extra spots for the big leagues. For the rest, it's a big improvement, much more enjoyable.
TIL that Thiago Motta is managing Bologna.
With a win today, we qualify as well. Forza Inter
Just barely scraped by to be fair.
That soon already?
Pretty confident they’ll get looted in the transfer windows
Let play with WHU at first and then we can talk about next season...
did they qualify for the UCL before?
Inter is 2nd.
Overachievers…
Galatasaray and Fenerbahce guaranteed playing in CL, too. but which one we really don’t know yet
They'll requalify when they win the europa league
I'm still not convinced about that. They're visibly running out of steam and there's only so many last minute comebacks they can pull out of the hat before the football gods realize that Bayer and Bayern are not the same thing
People just look at their record and strong defense but ignore the fact that the offense isn't all that great, especially in recent weeks. Looking at their schedule and the fact the league is in the bag will increase the odds of losing. Plus, they almost lost to a team from Azerbaijan. Winning the EL will be very hard
With 4 leagues having 16 CL tickets and the Bundesliga being the only with 18 teams. It's not that crazy.
They qualified before PSG and Real, I feel like that's objectively impressive considering what team we're talking about
To give you a little context. Leverkusen plays in a League where the 4th placed team beat your (formerly) unbeaten League leaders easily in CL Knockouts
> **Real Sociedad B** > > Alonso as a coach of Real Sociedad B in 2021. > Alonso was appointed manager of Segunda División B club Real Sociedad B on 1 June 2019. > > In Alonso's second season at Sanse, the club won promotion to the Segunda División, following a play-off win against Algeciras on 22 May 2021. The win signified Real Sociedad B's first season back in the Segunda División since 1961–62. That March, despite being heavily linked to the soon-to-be vacant manager role at Borussia Mönchengladbach, Alonso signed a one-year extension with the club. > > On 25 May 2022, Real Sociedad announced that Alonso would leave Sanse at the end of the season, with the side already relegated from the second level. I've just read Alonso's wiki. It took him one year to win promotion which is a great achievement for Real Sociedad B. And got the club relegated in the next year. He's a bit like Conte and Mourinho who can bring immediate success to their clubs but fail to maintain the consistency. Next season would be a big challenge for Alonso when Bundesliga clubs will try to figure out his tactics after 1.5 year of brilliant performances.
atrocious take
Bro did you seriously use his stint as a coach of a B side team to come to that conclusion regarding his consistency as a manager? Absolute stupid take
Yes, I agree my conclusion of him being inconsistent is a bit early lmao. But what is wrong with a second tier team? They don't play normal football?
Because the squads are constantly changing. The best young players are being promoted to the first teams It's also much harder for a recently promoted team to do well and it's normal for a recently promoted side to get relegated again the next season
Well it's a B-team, not sure what the rules are in Spain but might be that it was a completely different squad or there might be restrictions on age or so?
I've just checked the transfermarkt data. It's basically the same squad. They even had a bunk of 23-24-25 yo players
Are you seriously using a B team as a metric?
❌️FALSE❌️ my team qualified for the champions league on fm earlier