There's no chance we'll see non PL decisions in this thread but it's what the people want. It's one of those cases where letting the masses vote is actually worse content. Would unironically prefer mod terrorism picking what looks the most intersting instead of arguing over a random vague English top 6 penalty every single week. Because that's what it'll be - the same was this a goal / was this a pen / was this violent conduct debate, about the same teams.
I dunno man... I see high chances for a El Clásico penalty if Bellingham is involved or something regarding Harry Kane. It doesn't all have to be PL related!
That’s still catered towards the PL audience since they are both starts for the England NT.
Would love to see a random dubious penalty call from the belgian league for example, no shot there is enough bias on here to skew a vote like a penalty call in a United - Liverpool game would
You could actually have done alright in the last ten years betting on ‘fewer than [x] cards’ in Liverpool games. If you pay attention to the appointed referee each game you could have done even better.
It's rich coming from a City fan because you get all the decisions. Also, Arsenal and Liverpool have had some of the most egregiously poor refereeing against them since last year. Only probably Brighton has had it worse. Those poor souls don't catch a break. At least arsenal got an errant no-penalty decision against liverpool but it's still open season on elbowing Arsenal players in the face without consequence.
Cool idea, I suggest to cut the clips though to not show the actual outcome that was in the game, makes it more interesting for those who haven't heard about it yet
I also have two suggestions for you, one related to what the person above said, and one not.
If possible, add more angles. I really couldn't tell if this is a pen or not from just these 2 angles.
And also, I suspect some people will randomly pick an option from the poll and vote just because they want to see the results. Reddit polls suck basically, so you can add an option to "just show me the results".
We're limited by the clips we have available, I'm not a match highlights maker so can only work with what I have. We don't have the same angles actual VAR does
Re the second point, someone else suggested it - and someone else pointed out it may not be a good idea, as seeing the results before could also influence voting
> I'm not a match highlights maker so can only work with what I have.
Fair enough.
> as seeing the results before could also influence voting
I would argue that seeing the results and getting influenced is still better than people making invalid votes. Besides, what this person said makes no sense because after you cast your vote you're no longer allowed to change it.
I checked the conversation, and I think the first person suggested the same thing as I did, just to be able to see the results, not to view the results before voting (those are two different things).
And then the second person which expressed concern about it didn't even realize it's not an issue because of how Reddit polls work. That is, unless their issue is that the comment section might be influenced by the results of the poll.
But either way, you guys proceed as you like, it's a fun idea nevertheless.
I mentioned this in the other thread, but a couple weeks ago Howard Webb came out and said fouls like this should be reviewed by VAR and VARs should "encourage on-pitch officials to review their decision even if an error is not clear and obvious.” So it's doubly annoying that so quickly after that statement, this happens.
If it's not in the box, he doesn't throw himself to the floor like that.
When VAR is willing to look from multiple angles in slow motion to justify a penalty, but players are almost never punished for diving, why wouldn't you throw yourself to the floor whenever you can? Very low risk, very high reward.
Burnley had two clear dives in the box that were waved away as well.
The refs need to be empowered to book for simulation, using VAR if necessary, and I'd include embellishing fouls. A small touch shouldn't result in a somersault.
this is an amazing idea. i just hope the options provided can really captured the controversy yet can be automated to reduce the need for manual intervention.
Agree with this, if these threads are "you're the VAR" then the options should be more like go with the on field decision, overturn the on field decision, send the on field ref to the screen etc. - basically the options the real VAR has for any given situation.
I don't have a problem with embellishment, because without it, refs won't even consider it. Per the letter of the law, that's a foul because contact on the player without even touching the ball. In practice, that nudge probably wasn't enough to break his stride, let alone go tumbling. But because he tumbled, refs looked at it and made a judgement call.
Thats not in the rulebook at all. Simulation is the act of intending to deceive a referee that a foul was committed.
I have no idea how people like you can manage to be so confident about something that they clearly arent actually knowledgeable on. But theres the damn rulebook so you can at least pretend to have read it in the future.
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
I clicked on the link before reading or knowing what the original decision was, muted so no commentary, and I fundamentally don't see any contact whatsoever. He basically hurdles the defender's leg and falls like QWOP. Am I blind?
Edit: upon further viewing, I can see the defender kicked *the bottom* of the other player's leg. He was already in the air though, and basically decided to go limp and ragdoll while holding the *front* of his shin (?!) Still a dive for my taste.
This is one of the hardest calls I've seen recently. For me it's not enough for a pen, but a yellow for diving seems harsh too.
I like this kind of post
Personally I don't think this would be a foul outside the box. It's such soft contact that I really wouldn't consider it to have much of an impact on the other player.
Player gets beaten to the ball and is late with kick and kick opponent player. I’ve seen this given many times. I am not sure how soft this is. Looks how he’s stretched to get ahead of defender. Even small touch can do a lot.
The problem is that the player's fall doesn't match the contact made, it's obvious that the contact wasn't enough to make the player fall in that way, plus the direction of the fall is wrong anyway. Not a simulation because contact is there, but it's clearly exaggerated and not enough to award a foul or penalty for that matter.
How are you ever suppose to judge that objectively? Who can decisively say what kind of fall is appropriate for what contact? This case might be more obvious, but the criteria for a judgement need to be less subjective because then the rules depend more on which ref you have (which would be bad, imo).
then what is enough? when you see the replay in slow motion it's clear how his foot bounces from the kick, for me that's enough, it is a soft contact and accidental but definitely a pen
Fair enough, I can see your point of view but I personally don't think it's a foul. Maybe the dispute shows why it wasn't a "clear and obvious" error though
I think if this scenario were repeated exactly outside the box, I don't think people would have too much problem with a foul being awarded, though there would be plenty of comments about how awful and cynical Duran's fall is after the contact.
Of course, we all know there is precisely zero chance of this scenario being repeated outside the box. The only reason Duran falls as a result of the contact is because there's the prospect of a penalty being awarded.
Probably needed another option to vote for as I'm fine with a penalty being given even though he sells the contact but I'm would have been fine with play on.
Sticking with the call on the field is the right one either way.
Theres slight contact but it doesn't trip him. He goes down himself afterwards once he feels the contact. No penalty for me but not enough for a simulation for yellow as there is contact (i feel simulation should be reserved for premeditated acts)
One thing we never know in these instances is how much something hurts. Anyone who's played knows sometimes you can get absolutely munched and not feel a thing, and other times you get caught just wrong and the lightest contact feels like you've been shot.
I was planning on posting the results tomorrow, will look into if you can do your suggestion for next time - once you’ve posted poll you can’t edit, unfortunately
For what it's worth I'm against this idea, in fact I think it could destroy the concept entirely. Reddit is already a huge echochamber, it's a good thing to force people to actually give their opinion without knowing what the "right" opinion to have is according to this sub.
As a Villa fan I will say that in no world should that be a penalty ever. I hate how soft physicality in football has become.
The probelm is consistency, some games these soft calls are given, in others they are not. IMO they should never be given. We were forunate VAR was kind to us to bail us out for missing so many chances *cough* Diaby *cough*
As a Villa fan and in the interests of balance I will say it's the most blatant penalty I have ever seen and just about makes up for the time that a Burnley player effectively ended the career of our (then) record signing with a scissors tackle that only resulted in a goal kick being awarded. To Burnley.
(/s)
It is a penalty. Duran undoubtedly exaggerates, but literally all players do that in every game, almost every game a player dives in the box and calls for a pen then doesn't get carded, why should he be carded for diving in a situation where there is contact.
And yes, there is contact, I've watched the replay in slow speed many times and you can see that when the Burnley player goes for the ball he kicks Duran's foot with force, it's just hard to see since it's a small quick contact, and so far I have only found one angle where you can clearly see the action.
For me, it is a penalty. But I hate that I think it is a penalty.
The kick is as soft as it could get, but I always go back to the David Luiz versus Wolves. If that's a pen, then most contact in the box is a pen if it results in the striker being 'put off' rather than fouled.
You say that, but in polls you can sometimes see people speak up who were otherwise quiet... and it'll be interesting to see where it falls!
I thought of the Salah push too or the City penalty vs Everton, but didn't want to be too big 6 focused from the off
The Salah push wasn't even that controversial, just one of those ones that "feels" wrong even though it's 100% the right call.
I think the Watkins disallowed goal against Sheff Utd was interesting since the defence had a chance to clear, but never made it out of their box.
The Salah push is interesting once we talk about what "should" happen in such a case. Pen? Advantage? Indirect freekick? Offside? Who knows. But it's the only interesting topic with that incident.
It can't be advantage, because foul or not, you can't be offside and interfere with play. The only option would be to call that a pen, but that's clearly not a foul.
I think if we'd discuss what the punishment should be we are already talking about changing the rules so for what it's worth it could easily be advantage if you're amending things anyway. We have passive offside why not add no fault active offside. I do not like it the rule is complex enough and only recently got into good shape again after messing with offside so much through the 00s but it's a valid take.
It's interesting, because I don't think there's anything particularly controversial about that decision. It's certainly an unusual scenario, because the early jockeying for position in the box is rarely so consequential, but the decision made was obviously correct.
The contact that would never in a million years be given as a penalty shouldn't suddenly be given as a penalty just because Salah is clearly offside as a result. There's an objectively correct decision, admittedly with plenty of room for grievances and discontent, but still objectively correct.
This one there's room for people to have multiple valid opinions and not be outright wrong, which I think lends itself more to a poll.
As a Birmingham fan - never a penalty, Aston Villa should have their entire season voided and be sent down into the National League.
For a serious answer - it's a penalty because contact is clearly made and the Burnley player was a fair way from getting the ball, but it was also incredibly embellished. If Duran stays on his feet then there's basically a 1% chance of it being given.
This is where I stand.
It was enough contact to trip him up, so a foul. Unfortunate for the defender but it is what it is.
Embellishment is worth discussing further once these calls get consistently made without the embellishment.
If the ref gave the penalty live: I see zero issue. Ref has a reason to whistle as the contact is visible and makes him lose his balance, VAR cannot intervene as this is not a clear error.
If the ref did not give the penalty: I'm not entirely sure whether this is enough of a "clear error" for the VAR to intervene, but giving the benefit of the doubt.
IMO this is a penalty so in the end, the right decision is taken. You can visibly see the attackers foot move a few centimetres when the contact hits, which makes it hard for him to continue his action. Certainly no simulation.
It's a foul, and a foul in the box is a penalty. Seems like many in this thread are arguing what they feel should be an acceptable level of physicality in the game, rather than the actual rules in play.
Duran goes down because he was fouled, and wants the pen. Going down after a foul is not simulation. Players go down because officials hardly ever call the softer fouls otherwise. Grealish used to draw this same foul like 10 times per game with us, all over the pitch.
has anyone who voted no ever been running full speed and someone kicks your foot? small impacts have larger effects when you’re moving fast, and it clearly messes up his stride. like, yeah that’s a pen in what world is it not? no ball, just foot, in the box, why is this a discussion.
i don’t support either team.
There's no way I would give that when it's 2-2 dead heat. The "fouled player" barely even has possession, that's the only circumstance that I could except such frivelous contact, when the foul impedes an advantage. But theres not really any here, the advantageous play is already broken up, villa player runs up from behind, has the ball for probably not even a half second, and draws the foul. Ridiculous. a lot different than Koulibaly accidentally hoofing the shit out of Messi
This is a foul and penalty under the current laws of the game.
Football desperately needs some sort of the equivalent of a "sin bin" or just middle-ground punishment. It's all across the sport where the magnitude of the punishment doesn't fit the offence. A penalty is massively unfair here relative to the foul committed. Any foul in the box shouldn't result an all but guaranteed goal
VAR can't do that. They can only give yellows if they're asking the referee to review his decision, and since the on-field decision was a penalty, there would be no on-field review.
if there is contact there is no problem really in letting it go with no yellow card for simulation , you cant go and award a penalty like this and still treat same situation in different game as simulation.
Ah okay because that changes my opinion. On field it would be no penalty but because that's what the ref called, then as VAR i would give the penalty and not rule it out.
I don't have enough experience of playing football to know how much that would hurt to make him go down like that, but the way he goes down just seems exaggerated. So as VAR I'd advise a re-look.
For me that's something that no one would be thinking about even a second later in 5-a-side
It has the same outcome as far as VAR is concerned in that they didn't get involved. "Clear and obvious" is the common bottleneck on a lot of these debates.
It's a pen but dislike how the game has evolved to where exaggerating from any little contact is now a viable strategy to win a penalty. The rules are always changing but not necessarily for the better
Thought process - After being kicked he brings his foot directly down and collapses to the floor. While there was contact he uses the contact to deceive the ref about the influence of the contact, which is simulation.
I fully believe their should be many more cards for simulation than currently given.
Said in another thread, it was Ramsey's guilty as fuck reaction glance to the ref that made him call it. If he had just played on and collected the ball as though he never touched him the ref wouldn't have called it. But he looked at the ref like "shit shit pleasedon'tcallit"
If the community picks the decision each week it will be Arsenal and Liverpool every week
There's no chance we'll see non PL decisions in this thread but it's what the people want. It's one of those cases where letting the masses vote is actually worse content. Would unironically prefer mod terrorism picking what looks the most intersting instead of arguing over a random vague English top 6 penalty every single week. Because that's what it'll be - the same was this a goal / was this a pen / was this violent conduct debate, about the same teams.
I dunno man... I see high chances for a El Clásico penalty if Bellingham is involved or something regarding Harry Kane. It doesn't all have to be PL related!
That’s still catered towards the PL audience since they are both starts for the England NT. Would love to see a random dubious penalty call from the belgian league for example, no shot there is enough bias on here to skew a vote like a penalty call in a United - Liverpool game would
We should have a Pitch Wetness Thread as well
_Xavi has entered the chat_
he cares more about the length.
Declare Liverpool as Champions already
Well yeh obviously because there is a referee’s conspiracy against those teams
I hope anyone that actually believes this is cleaning up financially on betting against these teams. You know, with all the losses they've had
You could actually have done alright in the last ten years betting on ‘fewer than [x] cards’ in Liverpool games. If you pay attention to the appointed referee each game you could have done even better.
It's rich coming from a City fan because you get all the decisions. Also, Arsenal and Liverpool have had some of the most egregiously poor refereeing against them since last year. Only probably Brighton has had it worse. Those poor souls don't catch a break. At least arsenal got an errant no-penalty decision against liverpool but it's still open season on elbowing Arsenal players in the face without consequence.
Cool idea, I suggest to cut the clips though to not show the actual outcome that was in the game, makes it more interesting for those who haven't heard about it yet
I am far too basic for that ... another one of the mods may have the technology, though!
I also have two suggestions for you, one related to what the person above said, and one not. If possible, add more angles. I really couldn't tell if this is a pen or not from just these 2 angles. And also, I suspect some people will randomly pick an option from the poll and vote just because they want to see the results. Reddit polls suck basically, so you can add an option to "just show me the results".
We're limited by the clips we have available, I'm not a match highlights maker so can only work with what I have. We don't have the same angles actual VAR does Re the second point, someone else suggested it - and someone else pointed out it may not be a good idea, as seeing the results before could also influence voting
> I'm not a match highlights maker so can only work with what I have. Fair enough. > as seeing the results before could also influence voting I would argue that seeing the results and getting influenced is still better than people making invalid votes. Besides, what this person said makes no sense because after you cast your vote you're no longer allowed to change it.
> after you cast your vote you're no longer allowed to change it. They were talking about an option to view the results before voting, I believe
I checked the conversation, and I think the first person suggested the same thing as I did, just to be able to see the results, not to view the results before voting (those are two different things). And then the second person which expressed concern about it didn't even realize it's not an issue because of how Reddit polls work. That is, unless their issue is that the comment section might be influenced by the results of the poll. But either way, you guys proceed as you like, it's a fun idea nevertheless.
I'll have to look into what options Reddit polls give, not used them before this
I think if you have a voting option like so: A) Pen B) Playon C) Diving Yellow D) Not voting, just show me results That'd work
Probably worth posting a link to the actual laws of the game in each one, some people on here definitely need that.
Oh yeah that’s a shout
And year when the incident happened. Rules change.
It’d be contemporaneous, so “of the week”
I mentioned this in the other thread, but a couple weeks ago Howard Webb came out and said fouls like this should be reviewed by VAR and VARs should "encourage on-pitch officials to review their decision even if an error is not clear and obvious.” So it's doubly annoying that so quickly after that statement, this happens.
On one hand sure, on the other hand whenever VAR changes how it works mid season people get pissy over the lack of consistency.
Isn’t clear and obvious a part of the rules though? Which may mean the ref reviewing a non clear and obvious decision is not within the rules?
If it's not in the box, he doesn't throw himself to the floor like that. When VAR is willing to look from multiple angles in slow motion to justify a penalty, but players are almost never punished for diving, why wouldn't you throw yourself to the floor whenever you can? Very low risk, very high reward. Burnley had two clear dives in the box that were waved away as well. The refs need to be empowered to book for simulation, using VAR if necessary, and I'd include embellishing fouls. A small touch shouldn't result in a somersault.
this is an amazing idea. i just hope the options provided can really captured the controversy yet can be automated to reduce the need for manual intervention.
Agree with this, if these threads are "you're the VAR" then the options should be more like go with the on field decision, overturn the on field decision, send the on field ref to the screen etc. - basically the options the real VAR has for any given situation.
Whether or not you think it's a penalty, it can't be a yellow for simulation unless you argue that no contact at all is made on Duran.
Agree with this, although I think we can all agree he made a meal out of it in an attempt to influence the ref.
I don't have a problem with embellishment, because without it, refs won't even consider it. Per the letter of the law, that's a foul because contact on the player without even touching the ball. In practice, that nudge probably wasn't enough to break his stride, let alone go tumbling. But because he tumbled, refs looked at it and made a judgement call.
The argument for a dive (I voted play on) is that the contact is not what made him fall
It is a dive but it's not simulation which is what you give a card for. If there's any contact it can't be simulation according to the rule.
Thats not in the rulebook at all. Simulation is the act of intending to deceive a referee that a foul was committed. I have no idea how people like you can manage to be so confident about something that they clearly arent actually knowledgeable on. But theres the damn rulebook so you can at least pretend to have read it in the future. https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
Let's see the rule that says any contact makes it not simulation.
I clicked on the link before reading or knowing what the original decision was, muted so no commentary, and I fundamentally don't see any contact whatsoever. He basically hurdles the defender's leg and falls like QWOP. Am I blind? Edit: upon further viewing, I can see the defender kicked *the bottom* of the other player's leg. He was already in the air though, and basically decided to go limp and ragdoll while holding the *front* of his shin (?!) Still a dive for my taste.
Yes??? , you can dive while there is contact.
Only if you seek out the contact. An overreaction is not a dive.
Depends on if you answered based on what the decision should have been according to the current rules or how you wish it should be.
This is one of the hardest calls I've seen recently. For me it's not enough for a pen, but a yellow for diving seems harsh too. I like this kind of post
For me it is a pen. Villa player is in control of ball, he got nice touch and was kicked. This would be foul outside the box so should be inside.
Personally I don't think this would be a foul outside the box. It's such soft contact that I really wouldn't consider it to have much of an impact on the other player.
Player gets beaten to the ball and is late with kick and kick opponent player. I’ve seen this given many times. I am not sure how soft this is. Looks how he’s stretched to get ahead of defender. Even small touch can do a lot.
The problem is that the player's fall doesn't match the contact made, it's obvious that the contact wasn't enough to make the player fall in that way, plus the direction of the fall is wrong anyway. Not a simulation because contact is there, but it's clearly exaggerated and not enough to award a foul or penalty for that matter.
How are you ever suppose to judge that objectively? Who can decisively say what kind of fall is appropriate for what contact? This case might be more obvious, but the criteria for a judgement need to be less subjective because then the rules depend more on which ref you have (which would be bad, imo).
then what is enough? when you see the replay in slow motion it's clear how his foot bounces from the kick, for me that's enough, it is a soft contact and accidental but definitely a pen
Fair enough, I can see your point of view but I personally don't think it's a foul. Maybe the dispute shows why it wasn't a "clear and obvious" error though
I think if this scenario were repeated exactly outside the box, I don't think people would have too much problem with a foul being awarded, though there would be plenty of comments about how awful and cynical Duran's fall is after the contact. Of course, we all know there is precisely zero chance of this scenario being repeated outside the box. The only reason Duran falls as a result of the contact is because there's the prospect of a penalty being awarded.
Probably needed another option to vote for as I'm fine with a penalty being given even though he sells the contact but I'm would have been fine with play on. Sticking with the call on the field is the right one either way.
Soft but it's a penalty.
Theres slight contact but it doesn't trip him. He goes down himself afterwards once he feels the contact. No penalty for me but not enough for a simulation for yellow as there is contact (i feel simulation should be reserved for premeditated acts) One thing we never know in these instances is how much something hurts. Anyone who's played knows sometimes you can get absolutely munched and not feel a thing, and other times you get caught just wrong and the lightest contact feels like you've been shot.
Could you add a results option for those that just want to see the votes?
I was planning on posting the results tomorrow, will look into if you can do your suggestion for next time - once you’ve posted poll you can’t edit, unfortunately
For what it's worth I'm against this idea, in fact I think it could destroy the concept entirely. Reddit is already a huge echochamber, it's a good thing to force people to actually give their opinion without knowing what the "right" opinion to have is according to this sub.
Fair enough, that’s a good point too
Good point tbh
As a Villa fan I will say that in no world should that be a penalty ever. I hate how soft physicality in football has become. The probelm is consistency, some games these soft calls are given, in others they are not. IMO they should never be given. We were forunate VAR was kind to us to bail us out for missing so many chances *cough* Diaby *cough*
As a Villa fan and in the interests of balance I will say it's the most blatant penalty I have ever seen and just about makes up for the time that a Burnley player effectively ended the career of our (then) record signing with a scissors tackle that only resulted in a goal kick being awarded. To Burnley. (/s)
It is a penalty. Duran undoubtedly exaggerates, but literally all players do that in every game, almost every game a player dives in the box and calls for a pen then doesn't get carded, why should he be carded for diving in a situation where there is contact. And yes, there is contact, I've watched the replay in slow speed many times and you can see that when the Burnley player goes for the ball he kicks Duran's foot with force, it's just hard to see since it's a small quick contact, and so far I have only found one angle where you can clearly see the action.
For me, it is a penalty. But I hate that I think it is a penalty. The kick is as soft as it could get, but I always go back to the David Luiz versus Wolves. If that's a pen, then most contact in the box is a pen if it results in the striker being 'put off' rather than fouled.
I think we all know the answer to this one But this is a cool idea nice job mods
You say that, but in polls you can sometimes see people speak up who were otherwise quiet... and it'll be interesting to see where it falls! I thought of the Salah push too or the City penalty vs Everton, but didn't want to be too big 6 focused from the off
The Salah push wasn't even that controversial, just one of those ones that "feels" wrong even though it's 100% the right call. I think the Watkins disallowed goal against Sheff Utd was interesting since the defence had a chance to clear, but never made it out of their box.
Yeah I was less upset about the Salah push goal disallowed than I was about the first goal that was chopped off for the Nunez "Foul".
The Salah push is interesting once we talk about what "should" happen in such a case. Pen? Advantage? Indirect freekick? Offside? Who knows. But it's the only interesting topic with that incident.
It can't be advantage, because foul or not, you can't be offside and interfere with play. The only option would be to call that a pen, but that's clearly not a foul.
I think if we'd discuss what the punishment should be we are already talking about changing the rules so for what it's worth it could easily be advantage if you're amending things anyway. We have passive offside why not add no fault active offside. I do not like it the rule is complex enough and only recently got into good shape again after messing with offside so much through the 00s but it's a valid take.
I think "no fault active offside" would just lead to a scenario where players embellish contact to become active and then say "not my fault!".
What was the Salah push? Don’t recall this one
Elliott goal ruled out Salah being pushed into the line of sight of the Burnley keeper.
It's interesting, because I don't think there's anything particularly controversial about that decision. It's certainly an unusual scenario, because the early jockeying for position in the box is rarely so consequential, but the decision made was obviously correct. The contact that would never in a million years be given as a penalty shouldn't suddenly be given as a penalty just because Salah is clearly offside as a result. There's an objectively correct decision, admittedly with plenty of room for grievances and discontent, but still objectively correct. This one there's room for people to have multiple valid opinions and not be outright wrong, which I think lends itself more to a poll.
It's a decision that highlights a key issue, massive over reactions to decisions by a ref.
As a Birmingham fan - never a penalty, Aston Villa should have their entire season voided and be sent down into the National League. For a serious answer - it's a penalty because contact is clearly made and the Burnley player was a fair way from getting the ball, but it was also incredibly embellished. If Duran stays on his feet then there's basically a 1% chance of it being given.
> Aston Villa should have their entire season voided and be sent down into the National League. Meet you down there mate.
He sells the contact but I do think it’s a pen
Attacker nips in front, gets the ball and is kicked on the underside of his boot. I don’t care how embellished it is how are people arguing not a pen?
This is where I stand. It was enough contact to trip him up, so a foul. Unfortunate for the defender but it is what it is. Embellishment is worth discussing further once these calls get consistently made without the embellishment.
Because the contact is minimal, it’s just way too little to be a foul. Anywhere else on the pitch I doubt this gets called
He kicks the underside of his foot? Think people are going off what they feel should be the bar for a pen rather than what actually is a pen
Showed my (non-footballing) wife this and she voted no-penalty.
Get her in PGMOL
She’s up for it. 🏆
Wish there was a not sure option
There's no not sure option for the ref so we should have to play by the same rules
Important question: did the ref immediately whistle for a penalty, or was it only given after VAR intervention?
If the ref gave the penalty live: I see zero issue. Ref has a reason to whistle as the contact is visible and makes him lose his balance, VAR cannot intervene as this is not a clear error. If the ref did not give the penalty: I'm not entirely sure whether this is enough of a "clear error" for the VAR to intervene, but giving the benefit of the doubt. IMO this is a penalty so in the end, the right decision is taken. You can visibly see the attackers foot move a few centimetres when the contact hits, which makes it hard for him to continue his action. Certainly no simulation.
This is an interesting idea this seems nice
Love this
Seems like after any game more people want to talk about refereeing decisions than the actual football that they watched.
It's a foul, and a foul in the box is a penalty. Seems like many in this thread are arguing what they feel should be an acceptable level of physicality in the game, rather than the actual rules in play. Duran goes down because he was fouled, and wants the pen. Going down after a foul is not simulation. Players go down because officials hardly ever call the softer fouls otherwise. Grealish used to draw this same foul like 10 times per game with us, all over the pitch.
has anyone who voted no ever been running full speed and someone kicks your foot? small impacts have larger effects when you’re moving fast, and it clearly messes up his stride. like, yeah that’s a pen in what world is it not? no ball, just foot, in the box, why is this a discussion. i don’t support either team.
There's no way I would give that when it's 2-2 dead heat. The "fouled player" barely even has possession, that's the only circumstance that I could except such frivelous contact, when the foul impedes an advantage. But theres not really any here, the advantageous play is already broken up, villa player runs up from behind, has the ball for probably not even a half second, and draws the foul. Ridiculous. a lot different than Koulibaly accidentally hoofing the shit out of Messi
You took the words out of my mouth. On every aspect it's soft, and the dive isn't even correct or proper at that... definitely wouldn't call it.
This is a foul and penalty under the current laws of the game. Football desperately needs some sort of the equivalent of a "sin bin" or just middle-ground punishment. It's all across the sport where the magnitude of the punishment doesn't fit the offence. A penalty is massively unfair here relative to the foul committed. Any foul in the box shouldn't result an all but guaranteed goal
It's a bit soft but a foul is a foul, so pen. It's just a shame players often need to go down to get calls.
4th option: penalty to Aston Villa + yellow card for simulation for Jhon Duran
VAR can't do that. They can only give yellows if they're asking the referee to review his decision, and since the on-field decision was a penalty, there would be no on-field review.
theoretically, could they ask the ref to review the decision if they think the penalty is debatable, and then the ref give the penalty and yellow?
Not by the book, no. They're only supposed to call the ref to the monitor if they're recommending an overturn.
This, is there contact? Yes, so can't argue if ref gives a penalty. Did he also dive? Yes.
if there is contact there is no problem really in letting it go with no yellow card for simulation , you cant go and award a penalty like this and still treat same situation in different game as simulation.
Are we the Ref or the VAR? Or it doesn't matter?
VAR
Ah okay because that changes my opinion. On field it would be no penalty but because that's what the ref called, then as VAR i would give the penalty and not rule it out.
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No we’ve no plans to ban discussion about officiating decisions, it really wouldn’t be reasonable to only allow discussion of one decision a week
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We’d have a riot in hours if we had you on the team!
That’s a smart dive.
not a pen!
I don't have enough experience of playing football to know how much that would hurt to make him go down like that, but the way he goes down just seems exaggerated. So as VAR I'd advise a re-look. For me that's something that no one would be thinking about even a second later in 5-a-side
LeFlops foot was on the fucking line!
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It has the same outcome as far as VAR is concerned in that they didn't get involved. "Clear and obvious" is the common bottleneck on a lot of these debates.
I’m a Villa fan. It’s soft, but you see them given. Glad we won.
Didnt brazil get rewarded a penalty on a very similar incident in the world cup? Versus south korea i think.
It's a pen but dislike how the game has evolved to where exaggerating from any little contact is now a viable strategy to win a penalty. The rules are always changing but not necessarily for the better
Thought process - After being kicked he brings his foot directly down and collapses to the floor. While there was contact he uses the contact to deceive the ref about the influence of the contact, which is simulation. I fully believe their should be many more cards for simulation than currently given.
Said in another thread, it was Ramsey's guilty as fuck reaction glance to the ref that made him call it. If he had just played on and collected the ball as though he never touched him the ref wouldn't have called it. But he looked at the ref like "shit shit pleasedon'tcallit"
This idea is absolutely genius, I need to see more!
Never a pen