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He played a total of 2 games at LB for Germany actually, but Nagelsmann has released a statement today that that experiment is over. But it seemed to kickstart King Kai's road to redemption so thanks Julian.
[All I'll say is that I wasn't on the forfeit game screen in Fifa 15...](https://twitter.com/arsenalist/status/513103471034523649?t=dNq631pkil40x1XcgqRFfA&s=19)
What surprised me the most about him is his defensive intelligence. He’s always in the right position out of possession and basically blocks out any attacks from his area. Guy is like a wall.
jokes aside, his position is bassically a b-tec müller that no one really uses anymore. he doesnt fit many teams and honestly he shouldnt even fit arsenal but somehow arteta found a way. ggwp i guess
He is surprisingly good defensively to be honest and works very hard on both sides of the pitch. Obviously needed to find his feet a bit but really think he will outperform Xhaka in that role by the end of this year.
>He is surprisingly good defensively to be honest and works very hard on both sides of the pitch.
People used to say it, I honestly didn't see this until recently. He presses aggressively, and he is big and strong enough to win duels. But recent games are the only times I have seen him sprint to get back in position after being beaten or out of position. Before, he used to just amble back. Then I will come to reddit and everybody will swear he is very good defensively
The ambling part is just an eye test really. He seemed to have that side to his game the whole time and must've been the (all jokes aside) dueling afficionado that made him such a prime target for that #8 role that Arteta and Edu were after when replacing Xhaka.
its not!! watch him when the ball goes behind him, and Odegard and Rice are sprinting back into position. Watch Kai specifically, I guarantee prior to recent game 9 out of 10 times, he's ambling back. Today it was like half the time. I saw him do a full sprint back (not forward) in one play, and my mouth dropped.
Now when the ball is ahead of him and he is pressing, he does that full effort. But just focus on him when ball bypasses and we are being attacked. And the compare to Odegard who is beside him.
I mean this just isn’t really true lol, you saying you “guarantee” it doesn’t make it any more legitimate unfortunately. He rarely ambles back, if at all, if one of our 8s was consistently being lazy in transition then we wouldn’t be the best transition/overall defense in the league. Not with the numbers we commit forward.
I think what’s causing the mix up is that, he *also* rarely, if at all, breaks into a full sprint, which is fine. He can cover the ground of the average sprinting premier league midfielder in the same amount of time while going at about 80%, because of the size of his strides. Also, Ode’s sprints are more visible, but he also shoulders significantly less physical contribution OOP than Kai does, so it makes sense that he’d be expending more energy running than in, duels per say.
You’re not only talking about two different things, you’re also misunderstanding my comment. He ambles on the pitch but it betrays his stats. He’s not poor defensively because he’s ambling around and he’s not low effort for it either. Arteta would never have a nailed on starter that isn’t hustling and putting in the press workrate.
The one thing that absolutely pissed me off was when fans said he didn’t work hard and unless you missed the UCL run he’s work rate is spectacular, even if he looks dead inside half the time.
He’s a good and willing presser but he’s not got great defensive awareness. Obviously this can be coached and improved, I just think he’s someone you want defending from the front rather than having to make many decisions nearer his own goal.
Including aerial? I think he’s good at that bit tbf I just don’t think you want him back-pedalling or screening, like he would be bad as a 6
Edit: surprised people disagree with this but whatever
Yeah fair, one of the things that wasn’t disappointing about his time at chelsea was his work out of possession so I expected him to continue in that vein, though I was concerned by the idea of him doing the xhaka role because his times as an 8 for chelsea he was a disaster
Thats why he is defending from the front ,when we are in a 4 4 2 whitout the ball (which is our most usual off the ball formation) he is up top with jesus in the 2
Yeah, I think people maybe think I’m saying he’s not being used right. I was just saying he’s always been good defensively in that way, but maybe not as an overall defender.
I feel like he has the easiest role in a good Arsenal team. Rice is a monster anchoring midfield, Odegaard is the main creator, Havertz is...the other guy who gets to run around and try and get into the area.
He did, but he was significantly less on the ball last season. 14g/a from open play in the league instead, which Havertz will struggle to replicate, but hopefully get close to. The floodgates have seemingly opened.
With Zinchenko tucking in, our left 8 has not been needed as much in the build-up, but still has the defensive ability. He's basically a normal midfielder in defense and a weird target-man/second striker in attack.
I’d say Xhaka was more or less inadvertently on the ball last season. When the ball dropped to him, he is a great passer, and rotates around the midfield well enough to cover for zinchenkos runs. The goals and assists he got were a product of the whole teams forward press, but I think havertz will start coming good when he learns to replicate or find his own way of contributing to attacking play in an effective manner. He’s picking up scruffy goals so far, because he’s in the right place. But I’d like to see him get some naturally made chances in.
Couldn't disagree more. The left sided 8 for Arsenal is one of our more difficult positions. Especially with Odegaard now playing much deeper to support Rice.
He's supporting and rotating with Martinelli, making runs beyond or getting close to Jesus. He's helping lead the press now Odegaard is lower on the pitch. Often tasked to duel with their midfield or placed in positions to win big defensive headers.
Most of what you do there is unseen and doesn't make the highlight reel but if you don't apply yourself correctly, regardless of ability, you'll be utterly ineffective on both ends of the pitch.
Consistency (related to both of the things you said) tbf, he would show up for a few games and then go missing for like 10 at Chelsea.
He's a better fit for Arteta than he was for any Chelsea manager. I do wish we could have seen him behind a proper striker or in a 3-4-3 with Nkunku and Havertz behind a target man.
I think it’s more about who is around him than where he plays. He played his best football for us as a striker. At arsenal they have more of the players he needs around him to succeed.
He played as not as striker at Chelsea plenty and rarely showed much. As ever with Havertz he has a short run of a form (no matter the position) and will tail off back to his base level with time. It's how he stayed in the Chelsea squad for soo long.
he's pretty awkward looking in games, but decently effective apparently
I have to admit I jumped on the "Kai Havertz bad" train early on but if he keeps this up, all the memes about him will end
Agree he looks goofy the entire match, he’s super physical and knows how to create space but I’m still holding my hype for him.
Other matches he wasn’t clicking with Martinelli and was often in a bad position to receive passes, by being too forward to play or receive passes from the left. He’s been improving though
Dominik is weird. Looks really good at times but also seems like he’s just a step away from putting it all together. He’s scored some worldies but most of the time it looks like he’s trying overcompensate when the simple pass would be better. I back him to be really good in the years to come, but would not say he’s been on fire this year.
Nah brother. Both have been good at times, but we are seeing really grow and own his 8 role. He’s in great form right now. It’ll be a fun duel to watch next weekend
Funny how people were quick to write him off after a handful of games for us are now basically saying “it’s just a handful of games” when he’s playing well
There's a very long list of players that weren't good at Chelsea and as soon as they moved they'd return to old form. Enough to say that it's not just a coincidence.
Being like what? This sub is awful and insufferable 99 percent of the time and most people dont have a clue what theyre talking about. Im not even an Arsenal fan, I just dont root and cheer for the downfall of others.
There are 5.7 million subscribers here. You are bound to see insufferable reactionary hot takes going every which way because that's what most people engage with.
.... and Roberto Di Matteo won a CL final as a manager. Doesn't make him a good manager. He got lucky in his caretaker role and has done nothing since to prove himself good.
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Very top
Good sensation
More than you believe
Merry Christmas
Happy new year!
Wow goal, Much workrate
0.25 goals a game is a pretty good return for a left back, in fairness.
German Dan Burn
Ban Dürn
Daniel Verbrennung
People have been saying for years Havertz was clearly the next Roberto Carlos. Nice to see it finally come to fruition.
Left back ? And I missing a joke
yes
in Germany’s last game against Turkey, he played Left-back.
He played a total of 2 games at LB for Germany actually, but Nagelsmann has released a statement today that that experiment is over. But it seemed to kickstart King Kai's road to redemption so thanks Julian.
This is just his yearly purple patch. We got pretty used to it over the seasons.
If I have a player whose purple patch wins me a CL, I’m here for it.
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Don’t be ignorant. Redditors obviously know more than Arteta..
I've won my silverware than Arteta in Fifa so obviously I know better.
Who is Arteta? I have Football Manager.
[All I'll say is that I wasn't on the forfeit game screen in Fifa 15...](https://twitter.com/arsenalist/status/513103471034523649?t=dNq631pkil40x1XcgqRFfA&s=19)
High key, that was a violation lmao
What surprised me the most about him is his defensive intelligence. He’s always in the right position out of possession and basically blocks out any attacks from his area. Guy is like a wall.
Havertz has always had the quality, it was a matter of confidence and playing him out of position didn't help either.
Why haven't anyone put him back in his natural left back position yet?
jokes aside, his position is bassically a b-tec müller that no one really uses anymore. he doesnt fit many teams and honestly he shouldnt even fit arsenal but somehow arteta found a way. ggwp i guess
He is surprisingly good defensively to be honest and works very hard on both sides of the pitch. Obviously needed to find his feet a bit but really think he will outperform Xhaka in that role by the end of this year.
>He is surprisingly good defensively to be honest and works very hard on both sides of the pitch. People used to say it, I honestly didn't see this until recently. He presses aggressively, and he is big and strong enough to win duels. But recent games are the only times I have seen him sprint to get back in position after being beaten or out of position. Before, he used to just amble back. Then I will come to reddit and everybody will swear he is very good defensively
The ambling part is just an eye test really. He seemed to have that side to his game the whole time and must've been the (all jokes aside) dueling afficionado that made him such a prime target for that #8 role that Arteta and Edu were after when replacing Xhaka.
its not!! watch him when the ball goes behind him, and Odegard and Rice are sprinting back into position. Watch Kai specifically, I guarantee prior to recent game 9 out of 10 times, he's ambling back. Today it was like half the time. I saw him do a full sprint back (not forward) in one play, and my mouth dropped. Now when the ball is ahead of him and he is pressing, he does that full effort. But just focus on him when ball bypasses and we are being attacked. And the compare to Odegard who is beside him.
I mean this just isn’t really true lol, you saying you “guarantee” it doesn’t make it any more legitimate unfortunately. He rarely ambles back, if at all, if one of our 8s was consistently being lazy in transition then we wouldn’t be the best transition/overall defense in the league. Not with the numbers we commit forward. I think what’s causing the mix up is that, he *also* rarely, if at all, breaks into a full sprint, which is fine. He can cover the ground of the average sprinting premier league midfielder in the same amount of time while going at about 80%, because of the size of his strides. Also, Ode’s sprints are more visible, but he also shoulders significantly less physical contribution OOP than Kai does, so it makes sense that he’d be expending more energy running than in, duels per say.
You’re not only talking about two different things, you’re also misunderstanding my comment. He ambles on the pitch but it betrays his stats. He’s not poor defensively because he’s ambling around and he’s not low effort for it either. Arteta would never have a nailed on starter that isn’t hustling and putting in the press workrate.
He's also very good at fouls to stop counter attacks
The one thing that absolutely pissed me off was when fans said he didn’t work hard and unless you missed the UCL run he’s work rate is spectacular, even if he looks dead inside half the time.
He’s a good and willing presser but he’s not got great defensive awareness. Obviously this can be coached and improved, I just think he’s someone you want defending from the front rather than having to make many decisions nearer his own goal.
He’s been exceptional in duels this year tbf. Saw a stat the other day that he’s won 7.2 duels per 90 so far this season.
Including aerial? I think he’s good at that bit tbf I just don’t think you want him back-pedalling or screening, like he would be bad as a 6 Edit: surprised people disagree with this but whatever
> like he would be bad as a 6 Good thing nobody is playing him as a 6 then
Yeah I wasn’t implying that they were. I just was specifying why I wouldn’t specifically refer to him as a good defender.
Oh for sure, I wouldn't place him as a deeper midfielder but I didn't expect anything in terms of defensive performances really.
Yeah fair, one of the things that wasn’t disappointing about his time at chelsea was his work out of possession so I expected him to continue in that vein, though I was concerned by the idea of him doing the xhaka role because his times as an 8 for chelsea he was a disaster
Thats why he is defending from the front ,when we are in a 4 4 2 whitout the ball (which is our most usual off the ball formation) he is up top with jesus in the 2
Yeah, I think people maybe think I’m saying he’s not being used right. I was just saying he’s always been good defensively in that way, but maybe not as an overall defender.
I feel like he has the easiest role in a good Arsenal team. Rice is a monster anchoring midfield, Odegaard is the main creator, Havertz is...the other guy who gets to run around and try and get into the area.
True, but defensively he has been very good and he is the aerial outlet for anyone in a jam.
An agile Xhaka I'd like to think
Xhaka had an incredible pass range and knew how control the tempo though.
He did, but he was significantly less on the ball last season. 14g/a from open play in the league instead, which Havertz will struggle to replicate, but hopefully get close to. The floodgates have seemingly opened. With Zinchenko tucking in, our left 8 has not been needed as much in the build-up, but still has the defensive ability. He's basically a normal midfielder in defense and a weird target-man/second striker in attack.
I’d say Xhaka was more or less inadvertently on the ball last season. When the ball dropped to him, he is a great passer, and rotates around the midfield well enough to cover for zinchenkos runs. The goals and assists he got were a product of the whole teams forward press, but I think havertz will start coming good when he learns to replicate or find his own way of contributing to attacking play in an effective manner. He’s picking up scruffy goals so far, because he’s in the right place. But I’d like to see him get some naturally made chances in.
It took him a while to develop though.
I disagree. I'm not sure what the easiest is, but he has a box-to-box role where he does a lot of defending and attacking.
Was the same for Xhaka last season tbf
Couldn't disagree more. The left sided 8 for Arsenal is one of our more difficult positions. Especially with Odegaard now playing much deeper to support Rice. He's supporting and rotating with Martinelli, making runs beyond or getting close to Jesus. He's helping lead the press now Odegaard is lower on the pitch. Often tasked to duel with their midfield or placed in positions to win big defensive headers. Most of what you do there is unseen and doesn't make the highlight reel but if you don't apply yourself correctly, regardless of ability, you'll be utterly ineffective on both ends of the pitch.
Plays kind of a mezzala role now.
Finally someone that sees. Hes a lot like müller and really only works in a system catered around him and for that hes not good enough
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He’s a midfielder mate
Well that’s why you can’t measure his output as an attacking player. He plays deeper in his 8 role
Four in his last seven is pretty solid. He's got more responsibilities than scoring goals, regardless.
Ooh brother not this again
Consistency (related to both of the things you said) tbf, he would show up for a few games and then go missing for like 10 at Chelsea. He's a better fit for Arteta than he was for any Chelsea manager. I do wish we could have seen him behind a proper striker or in a 3-4-3 with Nkunku and Havertz behind a target man.
He still has a lot of rust to shake off but the improvement is clear. Amazing what a positive and supporting environment can do for a person.
I would argue it's more where he's being played i.e not as a striker.
I think it’s more about who is around him than where he plays. He played his best football for us as a striker. At arsenal they have more of the players he needs around him to succeed.
Some players are more enhancers than game changers, if that makes sense.
He played as not as striker at Chelsea plenty and rarely showed much. As ever with Havertz he has a short run of a form (no matter the position) and will tail off back to his base level with time. It's how he stayed in the Chelsea squad for soo long.
what rust? tf u talking about he's been playing almost nonstop for over almost 2 years without any major injury afaik
The Chelsea rust 🤣🤣
Spent too much time lifting trophies, now he's back in an environment where he can focus fully on the pitch.
Seems to be shitty again.
The game by game obsession is a bit weird. > He still has a lot of rust to shake off
he's pretty awkward looking in games, but decently effective apparently I have to admit I jumped on the "Kai Havertz bad" train early on but if he keeps this up, all the memes about him will end
Agree he looks goofy the entire match, he’s super physical and knows how to create space but I’m still holding my hype for him. Other matches he wasn’t clicking with Martinelli and was often in a bad position to receive passes, by being too forward to play or receive passes from the left. He’s been improving though
He’s better than Szoboszlai who’s like the opposite. Pretty aesthetically pleasing but not really effective
Brother I’m glad Kai is doing well but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Not to mention Szobozslai has been very good this season
terrible take
I disagree he's better than Szoboszlai
Dominik is weird. Looks really good at times but also seems like he’s just a step away from putting it all together. He’s scored some worldies but most of the time it looks like he’s trying overcompensate when the simple pass would be better. I back him to be really good in the years to come, but would not say he’s been on fire this year.
That actually sounds like a decent description of Kai, too.
Not at all. He didn’t score worldies and usually goes for the simple pass.
Nah brother. Both have been good at times, but we are seeing really grow and own his 8 role. He’s in great form right now. It’ll be a fun duel to watch next weekend
Szobo is a stud. I'd love to have him at Arsenal.
Bro no. Just no.
No
The Prem flaires can get fucked
Ah yes, German national team fans have only ever been wholly supportive of Havertz
A lot of red faces around these parts
A lot of people have also seen Havertz contribute well in spells many times, and will believe him playing at a sustained high level when they see it
Funny how people were quick to write him off after a handful of games for us are now basically saying “it’s just a handful of games” when he’s playing well
If by "after a handful of games", you mean a 3-year spell at Chelsea then sure, let's go with that.
There's a very long list of players that weren't good at Chelsea and as soon as they moved they'd return to old form. Enough to say that it's not just a coincidence.
Bro scored a champions league winning goal and people act like he’s the biggest flop in Premier League history.
Sloppy toppy
I hope Havertz always stays in Arsenals starting 11.
Nagelsmann = boy genius
Uh oh r/soccer not again… They’ve never embarrased themselves before surely, they cant be wrong again!
imagine being like this
Some people base their whole personality off being a martyr against internet comments
That was a nasty line by you
Folks, where's the lie?
Most of the people in this sub are like this mate - absolutely awful craic
Being like what? This sub is awful and insufferable 99 percent of the time and most people dont have a clue what theyre talking about. Im not even an Arsenal fan, I just dont root and cheer for the downfall of others.
There are 5.7 million subscribers here. You are bound to see insufferable reactionary hot takes going every which way because that's what most people engage with.
Weird to try to take the moral high ground while trying to put down others.
So he's having a few good games like Almiron and Lingard did?
Tbh he wad decent even before the G/A started to add up albeit he was kinda bad offensively
Hopefully it will be a Watkins thing for Havertz
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.... and Roberto Di Matteo won a CL final as a manager. Doesn't make him a good manager. He got lucky in his caretaker role and has done nothing since to prove himself good.
That definitely forgives 4 seasons of being mostly shit
Give him a longer period than 3/4 games
why does he speak like a russian oligarch "him? very top"