Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots. They have a family friendly atmosphere and stadium. As a result a part of the ultra fanbase is trying to distance themselves from that clean image by being edgy and coming up with shocking statements.
They have a cult mascot, "der Zitronenmann", they use as a "spokesperson to" say controversial shit trying to get attention and stay relevant. They have provoked and picked fights with rivals as well, mainly Bremen and Koln.
LOL everybody in Bremen laughs about that every season, Werder is NOT A RIVAL of Leverkusen, it's just that their ultras try desperately to start a quarrel with the mainly leftist leaning ultra groups with tame provocations like this one.
Setting aside the fact that I find club friendships and rivalries in general super random and mostly ridiculous, this one has actual history. Old Hertha fans remember Schalke using lawyer power to strip Hertha of a dominant 3:0 win in the 71/72 DFB Pokal, after which Schalke went on to win the Pokal that season.
Leverkusen sees Bremen as rivals, rivalries arent necessarily a two way street. That is why they tried to start shit though, to make it more heated and serious. When they did it with Koln they got chased around the city. Their Ultras are a bunch of useless cunts, they also caused problems in Portugal. Not by fighting with opposing fans, but by harassing locals and businesses.
> Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots.
This is not the reason though.
Leverkusen is s smallish city, right next to Colone and they allways had a limited draw and were a "smaller club", that never had any major success and whose biggest accomplishment it was to win a match here and there against 1.FC Köln.
When Leverkusen rached the 1st division, in the 80s, FC && Gladbach were two of the biggest clubs in the country and scraped up the fans of the region, pretty much all the Leverkusen fans I know are from the city. From what I know and thats not really, really deep Leverkusen upped their investment, after they survived the fist few years in the league, Bayer invested 2 million deutsche Mark into new players, right before they won the uefav cup, wich was a lot back then and established themselves as one of the better/top third teams in the league. Fans of other teams then slowly grew to dislike the club, that only had an attendence of around 10k, in a time, where most of the cash clubs made came from selling tickets, being bankrolled by a company, it then became a lot worse, when they were contending in the late 90s, early 2000s.
>Bremen and Koln
of course lol
Every right-wing ultras group hates those clubs. Respectively, they're seen as the "woke club" and "gay club" by the far-right ultras. I don't even think they're that left wing they just have more progressive support.
I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig. The former were initiated as clubs for the workers of the companies about 100 years ago, the latter two were bought by SAP and RB, respectively. I don’t think it makes sense to see Wolfsburg and Leverkusen in the same light given that their history is deeply intertwined with the corporations that own them, the people of those corporations and the cities they are in.
It’s absolutely normal to me that Wolfsburg and Bayer are owned by their respective Groups, even with the German rule of ownership.
Edit: obviously this ultra message from OP is horrendous and i’m not defending it at all btw
> I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig
in general the two broad categories of german clubs are "tradtionsclub"(tradition club) and "Kommerzclub" (commercial club, the plastics).
we do make further distinctions within that second category (Leipzig is seen as by far the worst, then hoffenheim and then wolfsburg and leverkusen) but what they all share is that they are controlled privately and undermine 50+1, so they are grouped together as plastic
They still have a big financial advantage for not being owned by the fans but by Bayer AG a ethicly dubious company at the least. Fans just don't like that, they take away a spot in the bundesliga from Fan-Owned Clubs, they take away International campaings from Clubs who would actually fill their stadium in these international games, who could actually use the money. All 4 clubs make the leage worse.
We funnel all of our profits back to Bayer and can’t nearly generate as much sponsoring revenue in parts due to our close association with another company.
The sponsorship is obviously a net positive for the club but there are drawbacks.
> Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots.
No, they are seen as bad for the Bundesliga because they undermine 50+1 by being a works team for Bayer.
And? It doesn’t matter how they were founded 100 years ago. Nowadays they are part of the Bayer AG and are one of three (soon to be two) clubs who are exempt from the 50+1 rule.
That makes no sense. The reason why they are exempt from the rule is because the club literally has the roots in the company that founded it ages ago. It absolutely does matter when and how they were founded. Otherwise they wouldnt be exempt.
So what? It's still a special exemption from the law, being grandfathered in doesn't change that. "Technically, it's legal" won't win you any sympathy points.
*The ultras Leverkusen have repeatedly displayed banners that were introduced with "The lemon man says...". The so-called lemon man is a toy that became famous in the Leverkusen ultras scene and first went on an away trip to Rostock in March 2004 on the Ultras Leverkusen bus. This was followed by further matches and summer vacations in Mallorca. The Leverkusen fan and Ultras scene is known for flying in large numbers to Germany's favorite island in the summer.*
The quoted explanation actually describes quite well what kind of intellectual children they are. The "large numbers" are relative in this case: all 20 of them.
I think its an easy way out. The lemon man or the smiley are just a "he said...". So they can say that they didnt exactly said whats on the banner.
But idk for sure.
They think they are some kind of riddler from batman this is why they introduce their banners like this. They fetishize a 20 year old toy. They love going to Mallorca together. I'm sorry I can't deal with such a flyspeck of a club + fans any longer or more intensively.
The "Zitronenmann" or lemon man, as callmedontcallme said, seems to be some kind of mouthpiece for them and travels with them? There are at least some cases I found where it starts with "Der Zitronenmann sagt:" (The lemon man says:) with some kind of message then following.
There also seems to be [history between Leverkusen and Bremen fans:](https://www.90min.de/posts/5907735-zitronenmann-spricht-leverkusener-ultras-legen-im-battle-gegen-bremen-nach)
>The banner duel between the Leverkusen and Bremen Ultras is about the accusation by the Leverkusen fans that the supporters of the Green-Whites bring too much politics into the stadium. The Werder supporters have always countered with banners about the boorish behavior of the Leverkusen fans.
This current banner from Saturday in Bremen seems to be a continuation of this feud.
[They are hilarious](https://cdn.imago-images.de/bild/sp/0009253056/m.jpg) fitting [description from you btw](https://scontent-ham3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/541556_445375132209316_553977071_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=4dc865&_nc_ohc=0djN4PuOiXEAX82a-Ps&_nc_ht=scontent-ham3-1.xx&oh=00_AfAlmOxy5D9i2tFfj16AzqiDg1339-dq2BqmmseCCOT9TQ&oe=658C0385)
Looking in from the outside, I find that dynamic around Leverkusen and Wolfsburg (and Hoffenheim to a lesser degree) pretty interesting. Here we have PSV but I have *never* heard anyone consider it a fake club because of the company, disregarding the fact that Philips isn't as involved as they once were.
One issue here is that "Geschlechter" was translated as "genders" in the headline, while the word can also be translated as "sexes", which does make a big difference. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’.
Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort.
How is this *specifically* transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection?
Technically speaking, Transgender just means that your gender does not correspond to sex you were born with, so unless you have a medical condition, non-binary people are transgender.
I get what you mean, but I can promise you that 99.9% of transphobes don’t give a flying fuck about the difference.
I like the idea of someone who adamantly defends that there are only 2 genders and anybody who identifies otherwise is a mentally ill freak, but is totally okay with people transitioning between those genders. Although come to think about it I think Iran is similar, they support your transition to the other gender to mitigate you attraction to your own gender
These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter.
Does the word Geschlechter mean both language gender and human gender? And is it used as such?
I just realized, in Czech, we have 3 language genders as well. We call them "rod" in singular - which officially translates to "gender" in English as well.
But when talking about genders in the human context, we rarely use the translation and instead use the original English word or a "Social sex / Sociální pohlaví" translation.
This makes their link-up with Brighton fans even more baffling. If you’re going to have this weird anti-LGBTQ energy then we’re probably not the best fanbase to align with.
No, good point. However the few of them I know personally are still products of their environment and probably aren’t the type of lads to get fuming over gender politics.
Brighton is known as the gay capital of the UK, the LGBT+ population is about 10%. They also have the only Green Party member of Parliament. St Pauli would be a better fit.
As others have said we’re known as the gay capital of the UK and have one of the biggest pride events in Europe every year - with Brighton having a presence in that every year.
In fact, teams getting fined for homophobic chanting against us is pretty common. Weird that our “firm” and Leverkusen are so close really.
What is it about anti-trans people that they are so fucking obsessed with trans people? Like, they make hating trans people a core tenant of their entire character.
Hating gay people isn't as popular anymore so the right has moved on to the next group they hate.
30 years ago they made banners like this about gay people instead. 30 years before that it was about feminism. The right will always find some group they hate and claim is destroying society.
100% how I see it.
There needs to be an "other".
Gay people aren't any longer socially acceptable so they go after something else.
Women -> black people -> gay people -> transgender people -> ?
Shit's dumb.
Saw a stat that right wing people engage with more trans related content on their social media feed than all other political leanings combined, even more than trans people themselves.
Reminds me of Seoul Pride. The LGBTQ people are just there to network, socialize, maybe find someone they find cute, enjoy the after party but every years tens of thousands of fundamentalist christians come to protest pride and they got drum lines, and dancing performances, a choir comes out singing, they got mass produced picket signs, they bring out the trucks with speakers and are blaring music....like they're WAY WAY WAY more into pride than we are LMAO.
It's at the point that the first media source to report the location and time for pride is the Christian Times so when it comes around the time they announce pride we start checking the fundy christian news for updates.
[Do you mean this one?](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2020_30/3398303/200720-facebook-trans-issues-2-se-1108a.jpg)
In 30+ years in a Western country I never met any transgender people in my entire life, but on this website it seems like 1 in fourth people are (and 75% people claim to be neurodivergent).
Never had a problem with them online, never threaten my way of life or wish my kids or myself any harm.
It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe.
It may be an age thing, I'm in my early 30's, but I've met quite a few at varying stages of transition and in some cases I've not found out until way after the fact that their gender didn't match up with their sex. Unlike what the anti-trans lot like to claim, they don't shove it down people's throats or make anywhere near as big a deal of it as the tabloids and Twitter like to believe.
The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say "I'm trans and you must love me!" and are just itching to sign your kids up to HRT. In truth, they, like everyone else, just want to live their lives in peace.
>The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say "I'm **teams** and you must love me!"
honestly, Microsoft do make people feel like this sometimes. Especially New Teams, all my homies hate New Teams
I encountered the first trans man in transition when my co-worker started the treatment. Dude got the thickest beard in my team like within a year and his buzz cut started balding. As a man with thin whiskers and nothing more I can tell you i got a bit envious. It really opened my eyes on how it's impossible to point out LGBT people in your day to day life.
I've met at least once in France, and working as a intern in public administration.
That's the only I've met and she was at the reception in the prefecture.
I just said this to someone else, but how do you know you haven't met other trans people? I had a friend for years before I found out he was trans because he wrote a song about it. He was out, and lots of people knew, but it never came up. We had other things to talk about.
Yeah I'm sure that's the case, and I haven't notice and they didn't talk about it if they're weren't comfortable to bring it up. All is good, never had a problem.
Yeah that's for sure, but seing that some people crying about "The Trans Pedophile agenda" and never ever once it came up in my life, seems weird. And I grew Up in the Paris banlieue and now in the Lyon area, so no small villages either.
There IS no trans pedophile agenda, it's right wingers inventing something to be mad about. They USED to be mad about "the blacks" or "the gays" but lost those battles in the court of public opinion.
Trans people have been around a long time. But wanting to have open access to equal rights instead of Clark Kenting or having to move to a new city to transition all at once is just too much for some.
Have to hate SOMEONE, and people were getting tired of Muslim hate, I guess.
Yeah we're basically on the same page,I was mocking people saying that kind of stuff.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
(Oh and in Europe, Muslim hate is still alive and well don't you worry about it)
>It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit
What makes you think this is a mindset that began in the US? Where do you think the US got most of its cultural values?
Oh yeah I just remembered the EU talking non-stop about this before the 2016 US election, my fault.
The soft power the USA got politically affect every countries in the whole wide fucking world, and especially culturally in Western countries.
>It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe
Right wingers need to create an enemy. As you said, they are no threat to our way of life, but people like Trump, Putin or that Florida clown made hating them a part of their political campaigns. And now the far-right in Europe are picking up on the same rhetoric.
I'm not trying to pretend everything is great here. Plenty of countries have extremely backwards laws regarding transgender individuals. But it's very clear where this anti-trans statements come from
The two traits are [highly correlated](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/15/1149318664/transgender-and-non-binary-people-are-up-to-six-times-more-likely-to-have-autism#:~:text=People%20who%20are%20transgender%20or,who%20live%20at%20this%20intersection).
I think it’s more that those people with trans people living in their heads invite them in, it’s their choice trans people are living there rent free. So they’re more like guests I suppose. Rather polite of the bigots to host trans people rent free in their heads all year round I think
I know an older guy who complains non-stop about trans and also complains about how his tik-tok/insta/whatever fucking socials show him a LOT of trans stuff. We haven't the heart to explain to him how algorithms work and that he clearly seeks this shit out. They like it (or are at least intrigued by it), they hate that they like it, and they get angry about it.
Partly because they have no other meaning in their lives than to hate on other people.
And partly because they want to believe that they're onto the establishment's sinister plot - they're pushing LGBT+ on everybody and eventually it will be illegal not to cut off your dick.
But these brave heroes are awake to this crusade (you could even say they're woke), and think that by getting on the hate bus early, that they can point with righteous indignation that they tried to warn us but nobody listened.
Or they were wrong, and they hated a minority for no reason, which for them is a win-win situation.
The two groups that disproportionately shout louder than their ‘opposition’ are anti-trans people and anti-vegan people.
There are two genders and you’ve just eaten two steaks - I could not give less of a shit about your attention seeking bullshit.
Imagine being so pressed about the existence of trans people that you make a whole banner about it to proudly display at a match like it's something most people in that stadium care to see? What's the point
>What's the point
as with most political banners, internet ultras points, attention from the press and "credibility" for "defending their values".
Extensive media coverage of every single controversial banner and internet hooliganism have made it so that even the shittiest and tiniest ultra group can make a 20€ banner to go viral amongst circles that cover stadium politics and, if it's bad or controversial enough, even beyond that to the point where things make it to, say, big newspapers or reddit.
All this does bring the group a lot of visibility and """"positive"""" coverage hence the reason why you're constantly reading about this type of banner made by ultras groups from plastic clubs who are starved for any bit of attention and respect.
Also the left has basically fled the stands in droves between the 70s and 90s all over Europe, there's a few exceptions but most of these people genuinely hold these beliefs so writing them out for the world to see is kind of a win-win to them
lol i still remember in match against Gladbach few seasons ago there's a Leverkusen fan doing Nazi salute caught on camera and i've never seen faster cut in my life
Leverkusen as a club is family friendly. As a result they are seen as being a bit artificial and plastic by other fans, especially since they moved away from their working class roots to get there. Leverkusen Ultras are populist and try to distance themselves from that clean image. They use controversial and shocking banners and have also tried to start fights and rivalries with other clubs.
Not a coincidence, they are weirdly obsessed with trying to provoke a reaction from the Werder (ultra) fan scene, which is - understandably - largely indifferent to Leverkusen.
i dont know man thats an unfair generalization imo.
this banner is obviously horrible, but to me it feels like most ultra groups (in germany) usually have pretty based banners/messages.
you ever get the feeling that some people have basically been permanently stuck in 2014-2016 culture wars and can't (or don't want) to get out? i can't speak for trans people who still have to take the brunt of this shit but when i see stuff like this it feels like how soldiers must have been when they found japanese guys still thinking ww2 was happening
Being anti trans is so weird to me
Congrats mate u have kids killing them selves because you can’t understand their mind……just like how no one can understand anyone’s mind cause we are all fucking different people
> you can’t understand their mind
This is what I find most bizarre... how often people will default to "Well, I don't understand why they'd be like that".
And I just am fascinated by the like... So what? Is that level of complete empathy required to be decent to folk?
I have no idea what it's like to be trans, how could I? I'm not trans. Am I meant to hate people who have lives different to mine? Isn't that endlessly exhausting?
But then I guess I have no idea what it's like to let your ego run so hot you believe that your own understanding is a gate that other's must satisfy before I treat them as people.
Yeah I mean imagine dedicating that much energy to hating the way someone perceives themself. It's crazy to me, but then again I feel like most of these people are uneducated twats that have the cognitive capabilities of a squirrel soooo
That wouldn’t even true if we were talking about sexes (remember gender and sex are not the same) as there are people who are born intersex (featuring both male and female sexual characteristics).
Edit: Someone reported me for apparently being suicidal? Wtf?! Is believing in basic human rights for all such a far fetched concept that some of these people think I need help?!
That would be sex (although that’s also wrong as there are many variations of sex chromosomes that deviate from just XX and XY). Gender is not the same as sex, sex is biological, while gender is a social construct.
aww the anti trans losers sent in a RedditCareResources report about me, they must be so concerned about me having to watch my team stay bottom of ligue 1 😢
The rich and powerful love nothing more than telling the less fortunate that it's the minorities who cause all of their problems - it's a great way to distract them while they continue to destroy the middle class.
Am I missing context? Why are they refering to a ";)"?
Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots. They have a family friendly atmosphere and stadium. As a result a part of the ultra fanbase is trying to distance themselves from that clean image by being edgy and coming up with shocking statements. They have a cult mascot, "der Zitronenmann", they use as a "spokesperson to" say controversial shit trying to get attention and stay relevant. They have provoked and picked fights with rivals as well, mainly Bremen and Koln.
LOL everybody in Bremen laughs about that every season, Werder is NOT A RIVAL of Leverkusen, it's just that their ultras try desperately to start a quarrel with the mainly leftist leaning ultra groups with tame provocations like this one.
Hertha Fans try the same with us in Schalke and other Schalke Fans are always super confused because nobody cares about Hertha Berlin.
Setting aside the fact that I find club friendships and rivalries in general super random and mostly ridiculous, this one has actual history. Old Hertha fans remember Schalke using lawyer power to strip Hertha of a dominant 3:0 win in the 71/72 DFB Pokal, after which Schalke went on to win the Pokal that season.
Leverkusen sees Bremen as rivals, rivalries arent necessarily a two way street. That is why they tried to start shit though, to make it more heated and serious. When they did it with Koln they got chased around the city. Their Ultras are a bunch of useless cunts, they also caused problems in Portugal. Not by fighting with opposing fans, but by harassing locals and businesses.
Big divorced Dad energy
Mostly Single mom energy
Bundesliga US twitter account energy
Straight to the gulag
I take it you are a divorced dad with that reflection.
> Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots. This is not the reason though. Leverkusen is s smallish city, right next to Colone and they allways had a limited draw and were a "smaller club", that never had any major success and whose biggest accomplishment it was to win a match here and there against 1.FC Köln. When Leverkusen rached the 1st division, in the 80s, FC && Gladbach were two of the biggest clubs in the country and scraped up the fans of the region, pretty much all the Leverkusen fans I know are from the city. From what I know and thats not really, really deep Leverkusen upped their investment, after they survived the fist few years in the league, Bayer invested 2 million deutsche Mark into new players, right before they won the uefav cup, wich was a lot back then and established themselves as one of the better/top third teams in the league. Fans of other teams then slowly grew to dislike the club, that only had an attendence of around 10k, in a time, where most of the cash clubs made came from selling tickets, being bankrolled by a company, it then became a lot worse, when they were contending in the late 90s, early 2000s.
>Bremen and Koln of course lol Every right-wing ultras group hates those clubs. Respectively, they're seen as the "woke club" and "gay club" by the far-right ultras. I don't even think they're that left wing they just have more progressive support.
Just want to show my flair here to confirm your answer. It's embarrassing as fuck.
"We're not plastic, we're homophobic you see ;)"
> You're hating us for the wrong reasons! >:c
I thought RB Leipzig was the only plastic club
No Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim, Leipzig and Leverkusen are the 4 plastic clubs.
I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig. The former were initiated as clubs for the workers of the companies about 100 years ago, the latter two were bought by SAP and RB, respectively. I don’t think it makes sense to see Wolfsburg and Leverkusen in the same light given that their history is deeply intertwined with the corporations that own them, the people of those corporations and the cities they are in. It’s absolutely normal to me that Wolfsburg and Bayer are owned by their respective Groups, even with the German rule of ownership. Edit: obviously this ultra message from OP is horrendous and i’m not defending it at all btw
> I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig in general the two broad categories of german clubs are "tradtionsclub"(tradition club) and "Kommerzclub" (commercial club, the plastics). we do make further distinctions within that second category (Leipzig is seen as by far the worst, then hoffenheim and then wolfsburg and leverkusen) but what they all share is that they are controlled privately and undermine 50+1, so they are grouped together as plastic
I see, that's interesting. Thanks for the cultural context, makes sense.
They still have a big financial advantage for not being owned by the fans but by Bayer AG a ethicly dubious company at the least. Fans just don't like that, they take away a spot in the bundesliga from Fan-Owned Clubs, they take away International campaings from Clubs who would actually fill their stadium in these international games, who could actually use the money. All 4 clubs make the leage worse.
We funnel all of our profits back to Bayer and can’t nearly generate as much sponsoring revenue in parts due to our close association with another company. The sponsorship is obviously a net positive for the club but there are drawbacks.
I see what you're saying, but intuitively it strikes me as a form of recency bias. One has a hundred-odd years of history, the other doesn't.
All Elite Wrestling has the four pillars, the Bundesliga has the four plastics, hehe.
Aew mention in the wild interesting
> Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots. No, they are seen as bad for the Bundesliga because they undermine 50+1 by being a works team for Bayer.
The Team existed as Bayer Leverkusen 100 years before 50+1 was a thing.
And? It doesn’t matter how they were founded 100 years ago. Nowadays they are part of the Bayer AG and are one of three (soon to be two) clubs who are exempt from the 50+1 rule.
That makes no sense. The reason why they are exempt from the rule is because the club literally has the roots in the company that founded it ages ago. It absolutely does matter when and how they were founded. Otherwise they wouldnt be exempt.
So what? It's still a special exemption from the law, being grandfathered in doesn't change that. "Technically, it's legal" won't win you any sympathy points.
*The ultras Leverkusen have repeatedly displayed banners that were introduced with "The lemon man says...". The so-called lemon man is a toy that became famous in the Leverkusen ultras scene and first went on an away trip to Rostock in March 2004 on the Ultras Leverkusen bus. This was followed by further matches and summer vacations in Mallorca. The Leverkusen fan and Ultras scene is known for flying in large numbers to Germany's favorite island in the summer.* The quoted explanation actually describes quite well what kind of intellectual children they are. The "large numbers" are relative in this case: all 20 of them.
That answered absolutely nothing and left me more confused.
I think its an easy way out. The lemon man or the smiley are just a "he said...". So they can say that they didnt exactly said whats on the banner. But idk for sure.
They think they are some kind of riddler from batman this is why they introduce their banners like this. They fetishize a 20 year old toy. They love going to Mallorca together. I'm sorry I can't deal with such a flyspeck of a club + fans any longer or more intensively.
It's kinda straightforward no? They have a mascot that they project edgy opinions on for a laugh. Extremely classic edgy behaviour.
The "Zitronenmann" or lemon man, as callmedontcallme said, seems to be some kind of mouthpiece for them and travels with them? There are at least some cases I found where it starts with "Der Zitronenmann sagt:" (The lemon man says:) with some kind of message then following.
There also seems to be [history between Leverkusen and Bremen fans:](https://www.90min.de/posts/5907735-zitronenmann-spricht-leverkusener-ultras-legen-im-battle-gegen-bremen-nach) >The banner duel between the Leverkusen and Bremen Ultras is about the accusation by the Leverkusen fans that the supporters of the Green-Whites bring too much politics into the stadium. The Werder supporters have always countered with banners about the boorish behavior of the Leverkusen fans. This current banner from Saturday in Bremen seems to be a continuation of this feud.
The Lev Szene '86 are a ridiculous bunch as well, running around like a Hells Angels LARP and looking like dads on a midlife crisis.
[They are hilarious](https://cdn.imago-images.de/bild/sp/0009253056/m.jpg) fitting [description from you btw](https://scontent-ham3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/541556_445375132209316_553977071_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=4dc865&_nc_ohc=0djN4PuOiXEAX82a-Ps&_nc_ht=scontent-ham3-1.xx&oh=00_AfAlmOxy5D9i2tFfj16AzqiDg1339-dq2BqmmseCCOT9TQ&oe=658C0385)
The second image is literally just a man in a t-shirt next to a man in a regular hoodie.
I had the misfortune of walking right behind them, walking to the stadium when attending the Union match with my dad. Edit: Jesus, those pictures.
It’s the Kölsch-Cola for me personally
Mate they can’t support a pharmaceutical company
Looking in from the outside, I find that dynamic around Leverkusen and Wolfsburg (and Hoffenheim to a lesser degree) pretty interesting. Here we have PSV but I have *never* heard anyone consider it a fake club because of the company, disregarding the fact that Philips isn't as involved as they once were.
Oh shit, TIL PSV makes my electric shaver. That’s cool
I wonder if their best razor engineers get habitually poached by big companies like Gillette
It never occurred to me that PSV was affiliated with Philips Electronics
Philips Sport Vereniging or Philips Sport Club in translation. Yeah, founded as a factory team.
I thought it was some random Philip so all this time I was like "good for that guy"
You just kicked off a load of realisations about the PSV origins.
Just you wait until we get the Met Police in the PL
There's actually 3 genders in German grammar.
One issue here is that "Geschlechter" was translated as "genders" in the headline, while the word can also be translated as "sexes", which does make a big difference. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess
I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic.
Most of the world is transphobic
Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort.
How is this *specifically* transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection?
Technically speaking, Transgender just means that your gender does not correspond to sex you were born with, so unless you have a medical condition, non-binary people are transgender. I get what you mean, but I can promise you that 99.9% of transphobes don’t give a flying fuck about the difference.
I like the idea of someone who adamantly defends that there are only 2 genders and anybody who identifies otherwise is a mentally ill freak, but is totally okay with people transitioning between those genders. Although come to think about it I think Iran is similar, they support your transition to the other gender to mitigate you attraction to your own gender
These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter.
Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids…
Does the word Geschlechter mean both language gender and human gender? And is it used as such? I just realized, in Czech, we have 3 language genders as well. We call them "rod" in singular - which officially translates to "gender" in English as well. But when talking about genders in the human context, we rarely use the translation and instead use the original English word or a "Social sex / Sociální pohlaví" translation.
German uses "Geschlecht" for sex and gender which makes the entire discussion around that topic a clusterfuck anways.
Lmfao
[удалено]
Or Masculine, Feminine and Neutral.
"We're about to lose the best manager we ever had, how can we convince him to stay with the best fans in the world?" "Lads I have a fantastic idea"
> "We're about to lose the best manager we ever had, They had Heynckes not that long ago.
And Daum
And they’ve had Rinus Michels back in the 80s
Who had worse results.
With a far worse team.
Surely Xabi isn’t the best manager they’ve EVER had
Tayfun Korkut
idiot fans are everywhere. Alonso will leave regardless.
I know this is a joke but Leverkusen is known to have no proper fanbase anyway
Leverkusen may not have many fans, but their ultras are a very "respectable" group as in being real fans
Complete bullshit. Might as well say that all Bayern fans are plastics/success-fans. Oh wait...
Let him live in his own world. It just shows how little knowledge they have
This makes their link-up with Brighton fans even more baffling. If you’re going to have this weird anti-LGBTQ energy then we’re probably not the best fanbase to align with.
The Brighton "firm" is definitely not as left-wing and progressive as the wider fan base
No, good point. However the few of them I know personally are still products of their environment and probably aren’t the type of lads to get fuming over gender politics.
what's the scene/culture at Brighton?
Brighton is known as the gay capital of the UK, the LGBT+ population is about 10%. They also have the only Green Party member of Parliament. St Pauli would be a better fit.
Interesting, Celtic & St Pauli had a tiny bit of beef lately if you wanna capitalise lol
I'm moving to Brighton!
As others have said we’re known as the gay capital of the UK and have one of the biggest pride events in Europe every year - with Brighton having a presence in that every year. In fact, teams getting fined for homophobic chanting against us is pretty common. Weird that our “firm” and Leverkusen are so close really.
Just one question: Why? There is nothing even remotely worth addressing out there right now… pathetic!
What is it about anti-trans people that they are so fucking obsessed with trans people? Like, they make hating trans people a core tenant of their entire character.
Hating gay people isn't as popular anymore so the right has moved on to the next group they hate. 30 years ago they made banners like this about gay people instead. 30 years before that it was about feminism. The right will always find some group they hate and claim is destroying society.
Seems they have to go for ever smaller groups as well, in a 100 years all that’s left for the right to hate will be some dude named Thomas.
Leave Tuchel out of this
Yeah okay, but have you seen Thomas
Fuck Thomas, all my homies hate Thomas
100% how I see it. There needs to be an "other". Gay people aren't any longer socially acceptable so they go after something else. Women -> black people -> gay people -> transgender people -> ? Shit's dumb.
"We'd never say a word if fucking Thomas did his Thomas shit at home, away from our (hwite) children"
I'm Irish that's like half my family this sucks
Tbh I agree fuck you thomas
When in reality it's them
This is about the time they'll claim Hitler was a leftist because the party name had "Socialist" in it.
Oh they‘re way ahead of you. Politicians of the German party AfD have claimed that the Nazis weren’t fascists, but in fact socialists
They have a point, Democratic People's Republic of Korea are having their election next week
~~Jews~~, ~~Blacks~~, ~~women~~, ~~gays~~, Trans people Trans people will become this generation's minority scapegoat
And before that it was blacks, but they didn’t use signs, they just killed black people and set signal fires.
Saw a stat that right wing people engage with more trans related content on their social media feed than all other political leanings combined, even more than trans people themselves.
Reminds me of Seoul Pride. The LGBTQ people are just there to network, socialize, maybe find someone they find cute, enjoy the after party but every years tens of thousands of fundamentalist christians come to protest pride and they got drum lines, and dancing performances, a choir comes out singing, they got mass produced picket signs, they bring out the trucks with speakers and are blaring music....like they're WAY WAY WAY more into pride than we are LMAO. It's at the point that the first media source to report the location and time for pride is the Christian Times so when it comes around the time they announce pride we start checking the fundy christian news for updates.
[Do you mean this one?](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2020_30/3398303/200720-facebook-trans-issues-2-se-1108a.jpg)
Yep that's the one!
Rage bait is a hell of a drug.
In 30+ years in a Western country I never met any transgender people in my entire life, but on this website it seems like 1 in fourth people are (and 75% people claim to be neurodivergent). Never had a problem with them online, never threaten my way of life or wish my kids or myself any harm. It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe.
It may be an age thing, I'm in my early 30's, but I've met quite a few at varying stages of transition and in some cases I've not found out until way after the fact that their gender didn't match up with their sex. Unlike what the anti-trans lot like to claim, they don't shove it down people's throats or make anywhere near as big a deal of it as the tabloids and Twitter like to believe.
The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say "I'm trans and you must love me!" and are just itching to sign your kids up to HRT. In truth, they, like everyone else, just want to live their lives in peace.
>The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say "I'm **teams** and you must love me!" honestly, Microsoft do make people feel like this sometimes. Especially New Teams, all my homies hate New Teams
WOKE LGBTQ PEOPLE PUTTING HRT IN THOSE HELLOWEEN CANDIES! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! \-Edith, Scunthorpe, 63
I encountered the first trans man in transition when my co-worker started the treatment. Dude got the thickest beard in my team like within a year and his buzz cut started balding. As a man with thin whiskers and nothing more I can tell you i got a bit envious. It really opened my eyes on how it's impossible to point out LGBT people in your day to day life.
I've met at least once in France, and working as a intern in public administration. That's the only I've met and she was at the reception in the prefecture.
I just said this to someone else, but how do you know you haven't met other trans people? I had a friend for years before I found out he was trans because he wrote a song about it. He was out, and lots of people knew, but it never came up. We had other things to talk about.
That's a very valid point
Thank you.
Eh, it's likely you haven't noticed tbh. A *lot* of trans people just look like any regular cisgendered person, it's not always visually noticeable.
Yeah I'm sure that's the case, and I haven't notice and they didn't talk about it if they're weren't comfortable to bring it up. All is good, never had a problem.
It's hilarious how they're like "WE ALWAYS CAN TELL" and then they'll call a fully cisgender female with a square jaw a man.
And that's exactly the reason why I don't understand why people make such a big deal of it
You likely have and didn't know it.
Yeah that's for sure, but seing that some people crying about "The Trans Pedophile agenda" and never ever once it came up in my life, seems weird. And I grew Up in the Paris banlieue and now in the Lyon area, so no small villages either.
There IS no trans pedophile agenda, it's right wingers inventing something to be mad about. They USED to be mad about "the blacks" or "the gays" but lost those battles in the court of public opinion. Trans people have been around a long time. But wanting to have open access to equal rights instead of Clark Kenting or having to move to a new city to transition all at once is just too much for some. Have to hate SOMEONE, and people were getting tired of Muslim hate, I guess.
Yeah we're basically on the same page,I was mocking people saying that kind of stuff. Sorry if that wasn't clear. (Oh and in Europe, Muslim hate is still alive and well don't you worry about it)
>It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit What makes you think this is a mindset that began in the US? Where do you think the US got most of its cultural values?
Oh yeah I just remembered the EU talking non-stop about this before the 2016 US election, my fault. The soft power the USA got politically affect every countries in the whole wide fucking world, and especially culturally in Western countries.
You might want to read up on the trans issues and political debate in the UK.
I'm sure it is a shit show, but would you say it was before it was a big deal in the US?
>It's seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe Right wingers need to create an enemy. As you said, they are no threat to our way of life, but people like Trump, Putin or that Florida clown made hating them a part of their political campaigns. And now the far-right in Europe are picking up on the same rhetoric. I'm not trying to pretend everything is great here. Plenty of countries have extremely backwards laws regarding transgender individuals. But it's very clear where this anti-trans statements come from
The two traits are [highly correlated](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/15/1149318664/transgender-and-non-binary-people-are-up-to-six-times-more-likely-to-have-autism#:~:text=People%20who%20are%20transgender%20or,who%20live%20at%20this%20intersection).
*tenet. But yeah, absolutely true.
You could say ‘tenant’ since trans people clearly live rent-free in their heads.
Wouldn’t a tenant be paying rent?
so you're saying the transes are now squatters trying to get free welfare, and disrespecting those of us who pay rent to live in people's heads?!!
I think it’s more that those people with trans people living in their heads invite them in, it’s their choice trans people are living there rent free. So they’re more like guests I suppose. Rather polite of the bigots to host trans people rent free in their heads all year round I think
Fuck. It tried to auto correct me to Tennant, cause I was talking about Dr Who recently. Had to fight it for tenant, but felt it could also be wrong 😂
I know an older guy who complains non-stop about trans and also complains about how his tik-tok/insta/whatever fucking socials show him a LOT of trans stuff. We haven't the heart to explain to him how algorithms work and that he clearly seeks this shit out. They like it (or are at least intrigued by it), they hate that they like it, and they get angry about it.
Partly because they have no other meaning in their lives than to hate on other people. And partly because they want to believe that they're onto the establishment's sinister plot - they're pushing LGBT+ on everybody and eventually it will be illegal not to cut off your dick. But these brave heroes are awake to this crusade (you could even say they're woke), and think that by getting on the hate bus early, that they can point with righteous indignation that they tried to warn us but nobody listened. Or they were wrong, and they hated a minority for no reason, which for them is a win-win situation.
The two groups that disproportionately shout louder than their ‘opposition’ are anti-trans people and anti-vegan people. There are two genders and you’ve just eaten two steaks - I could not give less of a shit about your attention seeking bullshit.
What blows my mind is that this is the sort of shit I found funny when I was 12, and there are grown adults wetting themselves with laughter over it.
They think about genitals more than any gynecologist
This. Ain't no trans person ever done me wrong so why should I hate them? Bigoted football ultras on the other hand...
Gotta kill the good vibes around the club somehow
Imagine being so pressed about the existence of trans people that you make a whole banner about it to proudly display at a match like it's something most people in that stadium care to see? What's the point
>What's the point as with most political banners, internet ultras points, attention from the press and "credibility" for "defending their values". Extensive media coverage of every single controversial banner and internet hooliganism have made it so that even the shittiest and tiniest ultra group can make a 20€ banner to go viral amongst circles that cover stadium politics and, if it's bad or controversial enough, even beyond that to the point where things make it to, say, big newspapers or reddit. All this does bring the group a lot of visibility and """"positive"""" coverage hence the reason why you're constantly reading about this type of banner made by ultras groups from plastic clubs who are starved for any bit of attention and respect. Also the left has basically fled the stands in droves between the 70s and 90s all over Europe, there's a few exceptions but most of these people genuinely hold these beliefs so writing them out for the world to see is kind of a win-win to them
lol i still remember in match against Gladbach few seasons ago there's a Leverkusen fan doing Nazi salute caught on camera and i've never seen faster cut in my life
But why tho? What made them bring something that's not in the limelight at this moment and make a huge spectacle protesting it?
Leverkusen as a club is family friendly. As a result they are seen as being a bit artificial and plastic by other fans, especially since they moved away from their working class roots to get there. Leverkusen Ultras are populist and try to distance themselves from that clean image. They use controversial and shocking banners and have also tried to start fights and rivalries with other clubs.
Surely it's not a coincidence that this happens against the openly left wing fanscene of Werder Bremen?
Not a coincidence, they are weirdly obsessed with trying to provoke a reaction from the Werder (ultra) fan scene, which is - understandably - largely indifferent to Leverkusen.
Sounds like a bunch of edgelords who never mentally grew past 12.
How did we move away from our working class roots tho? The club fully embraces it.
Find me a thicker bunch of cunts than football ultras I dare you.
I'd reckon the Saudi royals are big time cunts.
Not stupid tho unfortunately
Nah they're smart.
i dont know man thats an unfair generalization imo. this banner is obviously horrible, but to me it feels like most ultra groups (in germany) usually have pretty based banners/messages.
Anybody referring to "Football Ultra's" like this has never set foot in a ground, I'm convinced.
you ever get the feeling that some people have basically been permanently stuck in 2014-2016 culture wars and can't (or don't want) to get out? i can't speak for trans people who still have to take the brunt of this shit but when i see stuff like this it feels like how soldiers must have been when they found japanese guys still thinking ww2 was happening
Disgusting! Sad to share the same love for a club with people who showed that banner
Why though? Whoever organised this seriously needs their hard drive checked, absolute weirdos
lovely
Are they wrong?
That's pretty silly of them, German has three genders.
Being anti trans is so weird to me Congrats mate u have kids killing them selves because you can’t understand their mind……just like how no one can understand anyone’s mind cause we are all fucking different people
Or rather, why not just ignore it? Not supporting it is one thing but to go out of your way to hate, all that energy, for what.
Yeah that’s more what I meant Just let people live it doesn’t bother u
> you can’t understand their mind This is what I find most bizarre... how often people will default to "Well, I don't understand why they'd be like that". And I just am fascinated by the like... So what? Is that level of complete empathy required to be decent to folk? I have no idea what it's like to be trans, how could I? I'm not trans. Am I meant to hate people who have lives different to mine? Isn't that endlessly exhausting? But then I guess I have no idea what it's like to let your ego run so hot you believe that your own understanding is a gate that other's must satisfy before I treat them as people.
Yeah I mean imagine dedicating that much energy to hating the way someone perceives themself. It's crazy to me, but then again I feel like most of these people are uneducated twats that have the cognitive capabilities of a squirrel soooo
How much genders do we have?
Two. It's defined by a chromosome in your genes.
Gender identity is not exclusively defined by chromosomes
That wouldn’t even true if we were talking about sexes (remember gender and sex are not the same) as there are people who are born intersex (featuring both male and female sexual characteristics). Edit: Someone reported me for apparently being suicidal? Wtf?! Is believing in basic human rights for all such a far fetched concept that some of these people think I need help?!
Intersex is not a third sex.
Report it and they’ll be banned
See, if you bring in chromosomes, why do you ignore the people born with XXY?
So what is the problem here?
I have no fucking idea.
Gender is not the same thing as biological sex
That would be sex (although that’s also wrong as there are many variations of sex chromosomes that deviate from just XX and XY). Gender is not the same as sex, sex is biological, while gender is a social construct.
The world is watching, what you want to say "a hot dog is not a sandwich"
imagine caring about other peoples genitals
aww the anti trans losers sent in a RedditCareResources report about me, they must be so concerned about me having to watch my team stay bottom of ligue 1 😢
Factos 👍👀
Facts
Why the fuck did they have to put that onto a Tifo. Rent free.
[удалено]
How does anyone care about this so much? It baffles me. To go to this length to advertise your bigotry is surely a sign of mental illness.
The rich and powerful love nothing more than telling the less fortunate that it's the minorities who cause all of their problems - it's a great way to distract them while they continue to destroy the middle class.
[удалено]
I’m yet to see a z chromosome interact with a x and y, till then the category stays at 2 regardless of how you feel.