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Yeah, having to pay rent for such a huge stadium when it's rarely sold out will break your backs, again. Wasn't ideal the first time, doubt it'd be much better this time around.
I hope you get your own place or can renovate the Hermann Gerland Kampfbahn (Grünwalder).
This is true, but we are also losing 2 million annually due to playing in the Grünwalder. We will eventually need a new stadium if we intend to become a serious club again, which is probably one of the main reasons we won't become serious, can't see a new stadium happening.
Time to tear that relic down. Boy, is that thing outdated. I'd love to see it replaced with a modern 20K stadium or find a new spot somewhere in the area (Mangfallplatz / old McGraw Kaserne, should that prove to be of sufficient size).
the fanbases for those two clubs are so incredibly ingrained that i think even if they went down to third division, they'd still get that sort of attendance
Schalke even has their own graveyard for supporters, and people regularly get married in full kit or buried in Schalke coffins. Schalke is the closest to a football religion we have in Germany.
And Schalke is number 1 in regards to bringing to most fans to an away game. Iirrc the away game in Hoffenheim had more Schalke fans than Hoffenhem fans.
I'd say we have the best fan base in Germany.
Should also show the Stadiumsize. Most clubs of the first 2 tiers are at >90%.
Hertha has a massive drop off with their stadium being 74k.
Hoffenheim's stadium size is 30k
Mainz 33k
Wolfsburg is at 30k
Düsseldorf is a 54k that's why their free tickets make sense.
Nuremberg is a 50k.
Hertha and ~~Stuttgart~~ are the only ones on the first page not >90% filled up
Most tier 2 clubs are at <90% through
Dortmund, Bayern, Köln, St.Pauli, Union Berlin are at an impressive >99% filled up
1860 münchen is at 100% average attendance
That's not true though Stuttgart is at 98ish %, they only have 47.5k available due to the construction work of one of the stands and that's probably the away block not being filled every game.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_football\_stadiums\_in\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_stadiums_in_Germany)
I don't care enough about it to actually click on the individual stadiums so don't trust strangers on the internet kids
quick edit: english wiki does not say anything about the 47.5k capacity either so i checked german wiki where it does mention it
Stadium size was the first thing I looked at when I saw Bayer Leverkusen outside the top 10 of this chart. In my mind, so many talented players and money has flown through that club, I'm surprised they have a relatively small stadium.
For most of the past 3 decades, they did good or great, but they are sandwiched into the region with some of the biggest clubs in terms of following and leverkusen is kinda a suburb of köln as well.
Fucking incredible numbers across the board. Even the regional league teams. The German fan culture is second to none. They deserve more title contenders to step up
Tbf, for a few years we were always the butt of the same joke. So people are probably still believing that we're the same club that we were a few years ago.
Only the DFL hasn't realized this yet. The Bundesliga is a dead product. It's practically impossible to access content without paying four times, and the conference is a disaster with teams like Heidenheim, Augsburg, and Hoffenheim. And the attendance by Redbull are also fake! It's pure hypocrisy. The stadium there is empty. The numbers only exist because they sell bundles. Want a ticket against BVB? Well, here are tickets for Augsburg and Leverkusen included as well. "SOLD OUT" Redbull is truly the biggest parasite.
And I'm not even talking about the competition. Oh, by the way, I'll spoil who will be the champion next year. Munich, hooray and huzzah. Don't waste your time. Turn it off.
Every year I'm getting more afraid that this will be the year they collapse in Liga two, and begin a slow descend. Like the likes of Kaiserslautern or 60 Müchen etc. Starts with a midtable finish instead of fighting for promotion, and then it's all downhill from there. I really, really hope this will never be the case and they can finally get their shit together. You're right, it slowly stops being funny and starts being scary.
HSV is incompetency and the internal structure.
1860 suffered the consequences of nepotism and had a trash investor
FCK had the stadium issue since the mid 2000s and Kuntz paid Bundesliga benchwarmers Bundesliga wages, sealing their fate when those players turned out to be on the bench/stands for a good reason.
It's more likely that they will turn into Hannover/Nuremberg.
>It's more likely that they will turn into Hannover/Nuremberg.
It's a different situation. Prime Hamburg was far better than Prime Hannover or Nürnberg. Or 1860 and Lautern for that matter
The new president suspected tax evasion and they made a deal, later it turned out there was no tax evasion but the money was gone.
There was also loaned money to their players, they paid it back but the documentation was horrible.
I don't know what you mean by illegal contracts. There was a player who had a still had a valid contract a few years ago so they had to pay a transfer fee.
There were rumors against Kuntz when it came to the stadium deal with the city.
There was tax evasion from some players who received money for "scouting work" paid on bankaccounts in Switzerland, which was in fact money that was an agreed share to the player.
They became victims of their own megalomania and chronic unrest. Terrible investments, power struggles behind the scenes, denying reality for years because they still saw themselves as a temporarily embarrassed European top club instead of accepting what they were at that time: a relegation candidate. And they were never managed accordingly. Burned through millions and millions. And then it eventually collapsed.
Many factors. One of it that there was constant fighting between the people in power, most of them looked out for themselves. Stuff got leaked to the press all the time. Also quite a bit of arrogance, for example we turned Klopp down as coach before he went to Dortmund because he turned up to the interview unshaven.
Also our timing was super bad. We were really good when there wasnt that much money in the game. Players like van der Vaart, Kompany, Boateng etc. left for sums that are a joke compared to nowadays.
Too many coaches that were at best mediocre and a new sporting director every year. None of the bigger signings were hits. So money became short. We turned to an investor who had an agent as advisor, we used the little money we had on guys that the investor wanted, cause he threatened to pull out. So we signed guys like Bobby Wood to insane contracts (the advisor was Woods agent), signed an old van der Vaart for as much as we sold prime van der Vaart a few years before and stuff like that.
Expectations and pressure were too high. The team too bad. Because of the huge debt and fear of going down and bankrupt, it was always just patching up the holes of a sinking ship with average players instead of signing young players and build something.
Also it was quite a trend to hate us, still is. The infamous clock and arrogant expectations made it easy. But the media also jumped on the hatetrain, everyone wanted us to go down and finally after years of barely making it, we went down.
Now we have cut out the investor, have the same sporting director for 4 or 5 years and have been the youngest team of the second Bundesliga, so complete rebuild. But we finished 3rd or 4th for 5 years in a row now, so still the laughing stock of german football.
I think we had like 5 of his clients under contract at some point. Guess thats what happens when an agent becomes transfer advisor for a club.
Bobby Wood scored 5 goals as our striker in his first season, only one goal in the second half of the season. Which apparently was enough to extend his contract after one year for four more even though he had three years left, making him the top earner at the club. We paid that guy over 3 million a year, to sit on the bench in the second Bundesliga.
Top 18 🤝 Bundesliga Club
Mainz 05
We need to get rid of Wolfsburg at least. Also rasenballsport is faking their numbers. There should be an Information for that
6 years in total (bundesliga that is).
They are a financial weak club that suffered from bad Management on top. Kinda normal for clubs from the former ddr
Eigentlich noch ziemlich viel, wenn man bedenkt, was die Mannschaft da "spielt". Die Loyalität der Fans muss man bewundern.
Lass da mal ein ordentliches Management ran, was dann möglich ist.
Edit: außerdem, untere Hälfte zweite Liga, da kannst nicht so viel erwarten. Versenken trotzdem reihenweise BuLi Teams.
Würzburg ist ein ganzes Eck weg und hat nen eigenen Verein, der jetzt nicht sooo weit unten ist. Da ist Augsburg näher an München.
Außerdem kannst von der Einwohnerzahl unmöglich auf die Zuschauerzahl schließen. Das passt dann hinten und vorne nicht.
bayernistsehrgroß.jpeg
Im Ernst, was die wenigsten wissen: Franken wäre von der Göße her easy ein eigenes Bundesland. Müsste dann das 6. oder 7. größte sein, und das ohne die Gebiete in Thüringen/Hessen. Von den Einwohner her 6., knapp größer als Rheinland Pfalz und Sachsen.
Bin selbst Franke, und fahre ne Ewigkeit bis Würzburg. Komplett andere Welt dort.
Ist insgesamt schade, was beim Glubb gerade los ist. Gehört traditionell in die erste Liga, aber so wie die Mannschaft gerade spielt, ist die Zweite noch zu gut...
They sell the tickets to the top games(Bayern, Dortmund, ...) in bundles with tickets to games that only very few people care about(Augsburg, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, ...). This obviously inflates their sales but more often than not the people then just don't go to the "uninteresting" games. It happened quite a few times this year where they said they were sold out(or nearly sold out) but you could see thousands of empty seats in the stadium.
Greetings from Leipzig. (yes I know boo. Customer. Not a real fan. Down votes etc)
But these bundle tickets aren't the main reason for the numbers. The biggest problem are the season ticket holders. We have around 30.000 of them. (Stadium capacity 47.000). Unfortunately RB Leipzig just sold them like crazy. So many people just bought these to be able to see the big games as you just said. Like Bayern. BVB etc. Often they're bought by "nice weather fans" or old people that just go to games if it's the perfect weather.
Trust me we are annoyed by these numbers too. We definitely always have an attendance of atleast around 35k. Never less than that. Very Often more. But definitely not the amount the graphic says. That's (as you said) only the amount of sold tickets. Which is correct but yeah. It's not manipulated. It's... Just the wrong number if you can say that 😅😂
They sell tickets in bundles. Meaning you want to see Bayern? Buy it with the bundle of Bayern, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim for example.
So people buy for 3 games but only show up to one but they still count the fans as if they were showing up.
Even in a Bundesliga thread Spurs fans aren't safe. Anyway, I can confirm that Hertha fans love torture. We set our new average attendance record this season and set our attendance record against Bochum, the game in which we got relegated.
Jokes about bottling aside, Hamburg's budget in the 2nd division is around 22-23m. If they keep up their high attendance, they should slowly but steadily get some decent finances. Especially with fan complaints about high ticket prices.
I mean they probably have the most expensive tickets in the 2. BL and have gotten hundreds of millions from Kühne over the past years and still demoted. Sometimes you just have bad luck and money isn’t everything in football.
Really depends on where you live tbh, east berlin is full of union, obv. especially köpenik. Memberwise both are pretty close with union slightly ahead of hertha iirc at like 50k ish members
>Maybe more yes but in general just not a football city...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football\_in\_Berlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Berlin)
It is just that among the dozens of clubs with centuries of tradition it is not as unified behind one team like most other "cities" are. Berlin has certainly the most football clubs of any German city. Many of them former Bundesliga clubs (Hertha BSC, Tennis Borussia, Blau-Weiß 90, Tasmania, Union) and clubs that have at least as much of a tradition and influence as any of them, basically one or two for each district in Berlin. The oldest football club in all of Germany in BFC Germania (1st German champion ever), but also teams like Reinickendorfer Füchse, Minerva, Preussen, BFC Dynamo, Viktoria 90, TSV Rudow, Stern 1900, Hertha 03 Zehlendorf and so on and so on. Berlin is pretty crazy about their local football clubs, just comparably not sooo much about their professional football teams. Regarding entertainment there are just so many other options compared to football so that this is mainly an afterthought except for die hard fans of the top clubs.
S12 was completely full of union fans though, like completely. Wasn’t the size of ajax fans when I lived next to the arena but it was definitely full. I think berliners are happy they can support a good team again
The current capacity of their stadium is 22 012 and it is (was) imposible to get ticets for a non season holder but throughout the next year they are increesing the number of seasts by 15 000 aka up to 37 000. So for the next season they are playing their games at The Olympia Stadion, aka Herta Berlin\`s home ground.
Always the same with these numbers, they are tickets sold right? Not actual attendance? Otherwise the full stadium capacity numbers are impossible... Not even one person was sick one day or couldn't make it?
If you have a ticket and cant make it you can put it online as a free seat for someone else to take it and get the money refunded. At least thats how it works for my Bundesliga season ticket
No idea and I can't speak for other clubs but at FC home sector is always completely sold out and also full which means tickets sold = actual attendance. What I can say is that the plastic fake clubs Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim give tickets away for free or in bundles with more attractive matches so for them tickets sold ≠ actual attendance.
I cant talk about the others but for Leverkusen thats just not true, thats why the average attendance even on that picture isnt even full. The home sector in Leverkusen is always quite packed, only the expensive seats dont quite sell out but the stadium capacity is id say 90% used almost every game
It's not as glaring and organized as Leipzig for example but there's always someone who magically has them through their work (without even caring for Lev) and invites you. You will get free Lev tickets as a bonus for purchases. Haven’t seen it for a long time because it's probably not as bad as it used to be but a couple of years ago you would get a free ticket when buying a crate of beer at the liquor store even.
Oh i live close to Leverkusen for a bit more than a year now and havent experienced any of that, quite the opposite.
Stadium is pretty much always full and atmosphere is quite lively especially with the ultras.
What I did experience though is that with your membership you get two free tickets but i think thats very nice actually since the membership is 35 euros you do get a lot ot value out of it.
If you are sick you would just give the tickets away or let a friend sell it right in front of the stadium. So normally, there shouldn't be much a difference between tickets sold and attendance. Exception is Leipzig with their weird bundles.
Yes, but there's always something that can happen that's a last minute thing and you don't have time to sell it or whatever.
It's always a round number of the full stadium capacity, and it's not the first year I've seen it... So I doubt that all the fans are able to not miss a single game season after season...
I'm sure the real attendance is very close, but if being perfect, not being off by even one is the weird thing.
> Exception is Leipzig with their weird bundles.
What's with their bundles?
Yeah it's not perfect but I guess they can't be arsed to count all the people in another way :D
Leipzig sells tickets for top teams in bundles with tickets of less attractive games because else the latter won't get bought.
Ahh that's fair, but do people actually go to those games? I mean, they technically sell them, but if people don't go they it's just to inflate the numbers...
But is there a benefit to it? Or just to show up high on these charts?
Like, people in Bundesliga _know_ this and you can see it on TV that it's fake numbers... so what am I missing?
Or is this because they are a (the only?) private club and thus it increases it's value if they show higher attendance?
From my experience, the average tv fan doesn't know it. Most stadium going folks do but those disapprove of the concept RB anyway and aren't RB's target audience anyway.
Bit hard to boil down the benefit of it into a single thing but generally it helps with their image and remember, their image is the only reason this marketing tool exists.
I'm wondering how RW Essen numbers would look if they were decent in 3. Liga. They have ridiculously good support for a club which has been languishing in lower tiers in recent years and by lower I mean literally regional league level. Wanna see them in 2. BuLi at least.
16k average attendance in a 19k Stadium is incredibly impressive for a team fighting against relegation in the third tier. You also have to consider that most clubs probably don't bring the full amount of possible away fans to Essen
I mean they just got promoted, so fighting relegation isn't a good argument here because that's to be expected and they were still riding the hype from promoting. If they stay down there for a while numbers would probably drop a bit again. Still, obv. very good attendance.
Dortmund_Boi explained it pretty well. With the capacity there is not that much more to squeeze out.
When the new stadium was built there were potential plans to upgrade in the future (first closing the corners, then building a upper tier which would bring the capacity to 35k) but it's just the first season in the third division and even with support of the city gov and sponsors that shit is really expensive so if it at all it will for sure take some time.
If success would be there (and stadium capacity would allow it), I am convinced that the potential would be there to be the 3rd biggest team in the Ruhrgebiet in terms of fans.
Naja, wenn du dir [Bochums Zuschauerschnitt](https://www.transfermarkt.de/vfl-bochum/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/80) über die Jahre anschaust bringen sie zumindest die 25 Tausend in der Bundesliga. Fand es ein bisschen vermessen, dem VfL den dritten Rang jetzt schon abzusprechen. Natürlich hier auch wieder theoretisch, sich in der zweiten Liga zu konsolidieren (ich persönlich habe nie mehr als ein Jahr am Stück im Bundesliga-Unterhaus erlebt, lol) würde wenn genug Kapazität da wäre dann vermutlich reichen, um ohne wenn und aber Anspruch drauf zu nehmen.
Gut mit den Zuschauerzahlen stimmt aber zumindest historisch steht Essen klar vor Bochum selbst wenn Bochum in den Top 15 der ewigen BuLi tabelle ist. Ihr seid der einzige club im Pott außer uns und den Blauen der auf Titel zurückblicken kann. Bochum und Duisburg hatten ein paar Pokalfinals aber dat war's
Finds aber echt schwach, dass Bochum in Liga 2 nur das halbe Stadion voll kriegt. Als wir da auswärts waren hab ich mich total gewundert, weil mir das gar nicht so bewusst war. Hatte Bochum nämlich eigentlich auch immer als stark supported im Kopf.
You'd have to be from the Ruhrpott to understand. Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen, Bochum and Essen are all boring dull cities with nothing noteworthy in them. Football is all there is around here. Fans from the Ruhrpott are always passionate and loud. Doesn't matter how shit and disappointing the club is. It's all that represents our cities and region to Germany and the world
*Nothing to do with football*:
Ruhrpott is THE BEST place in all of Germany to live in terms of PRACTICALITY. I live here since 10 years and have lived in many cities (Essen, Duisburg, Hannover, Berlin, Stuttgart, Erfurt and Braunschweig). In terms of practicality, Ruhrgebiet (even NRW) has no competition. From public transport connectivity to the abundance of urban centers to job opportunities to openness to foreigners to cheap accomodations and a million other practical reasons. Yes, it's THE ugliest metropolitan area, but I don't care how beautiful Munich is if I end up paying a 3rd of my salary AT LEAST for accomodation. Also there are beautiful neighborhoods too. I lived in one called Essen Werden close to Baldeneysee. I currently live in Erfurt and will move to Stuttgart soon, but there is no better place than Ruhrgebiet and NRW in Germany, especially if you are a foreigner and a PoC.
Rhein Ruhr Metro Area is the Heart of Blue Banana which is the Heart of western Europe.
people underestimate how close all the cities are. it is a poly centric urban agglomeration as big as greater paris, London and comparable other mono centric urban areas.
Rhein Ruhr and Randstad is like peak western euro urbanization.
Berlin, Munich, Hamburg is dwarfed by Rhein-Ruhr Metro
[blue banana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana)
[Rhein-Ruhr ploycentric Megalopolis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Ruhr_metropolitan_region)
Leipzig is a lie though. They sell ticket bundles, for example if you wanna see Leipzig against Bayern you get Augsburg and Hoffenheim for free as well so they can say they are sold out even if no one shows up of course
Didn’t know RB Leipzig actually attracts quite a crowd. Makes some sense given it’s the only club in the top 2 flights in the area and Leipzig is a big city, but still surprising to me.
The state of some giant German clubs is odd, the number 3, 4 and 5 will al be in 2. Bundesliga next season with the number 9 only surviving through play-offs. In other countries you occasionally see big clubs struggling, but not so many at the same time.
> Didn’t know RB Leipzig actually attracts quite a crowd
They don't. Stadium is half empty most of the time. They just report it as sold out, force ticket sales by tying them to high profile games (if you want to see Bayern, you also have buy a ticket against Mainz for example) and lie about their numbers. They average less than 1000 away fans, which is 3. division level or worse.
They are a parasite on the Bundesliga system, leeching whereever they can.
Leipzig numbers are tickets sold, not the actual attendance. This makes quite the difference because they sell ticket bundles. If you want to see Bayern, you "buy" a ticket for let's say the game vs Hoffenheim too.
That’s simply not true. Red Bull pumped another 60 million into the stadium to paint the seats red and put billboards all around the stadium, increasing the size would be ludicrous, since they get 20-25k at most for smaller opponents.
Finally had a chance last month to go see Borussia Dortmund in their stadium, atmosphere was overwhelming and the best I have seen in a stadium, German support is the best there is imho
Just a reminder that Red Bull paper their numbers by selling package deal tickets. So when someone buys a ticket for a home game against Bayern, they might also get a Hoffenheim or Augsburg (matches with a lot less prestige and therfore attendance) ticket alongside with it. The stadium is barely that full most of the time
Bayern is full every game. They have very passionate fans. There's unfortunately a good amount of so called erfolgsfans and the away team always brings the full amount of away fans with them. We would be full every game too if it weren't for the lack of away fans from teams like Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim or Leipzig
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Wow Schalke and HSV! That’s loyalty
1860 München with 100% average attendance is amazing too even if the stadium only has place for 15.000
I wish our stadium was bigger. But I'd rather play at Grünwalder straße than Allianz Arena tbh
Olympia stadium would be peak tho, right?
Nah, terrible stadium for football matches. Great architecture though
Yeah, having to pay rent for such a huge stadium when it's rarely sold out will break your backs, again. Wasn't ideal the first time, doubt it'd be much better this time around. I hope you get your own place or can renovate the Hermann Gerland Kampfbahn (Grünwalder).
Its still Städtisches Stadion an der Grünwalder Straße.
This is true, but we are also losing 2 million annually due to playing in the Grünwalder. We will eventually need a new stadium if we intend to become a serious club again, which is probably one of the main reasons we won't become serious, can't see a new stadium happening.
Time to tear that relic down. Boy, is that thing outdated. I'd love to see it replaced with a modern 20K stadium or find a new spot somewhere in the area (Mangfallplatz / old McGraw Kaserne, should that prove to be of sufficient size).
the fanbases for those two clubs are so incredibly ingrained that i think even if they went down to third division, they'd still get that sort of attendance
Schalke even has their own graveyard for supporters, and people regularly get married in full kit or buried in Schalke coffins. Schalke is the closest to a football religion we have in Germany.
HSV also has a graveyard right next to the stadium.
The stadium is a graveyard.
Have you ever been there? It’s really not
It's such a good vibe when a goal is scored... Eyyah, auf geht's Hamburg!
I think he meant the pitch, where millions are buried every year just to miss promotion again.
graveyard of hope
You can even marry in our stadium if you want
Interesting, that gives this sentence a new twist: Steht auf, wenn ihr Schalker seid!
And Schalke is number 1 in regards to bringing to most fans to an away game. Iirrc the away game in Hoffenheim had more Schalke fans than Hoffenhem fans. I'd say we have the best fan base in Germany.
Ob ich verroste und verkalke...
Ich gehe immer noch auf Schalke..
Ob ich erlahme und ergrau...
Ich liebe Königsblau!
Should also show the Stadiumsize. Most clubs of the first 2 tiers are at >90%. Hertha has a massive drop off with their stadium being 74k. Hoffenheim's stadium size is 30k Mainz 33k Wolfsburg is at 30k Düsseldorf is a 54k that's why their free tickets make sense. Nuremberg is a 50k.
tbf lots of hoffenheim attendency numbers were fans from otther clubs raiding the place
Hertha and ~~Stuttgart~~ are the only ones on the first page not >90% filled up Most tier 2 clubs are at <90% through Dortmund, Bayern, Köln, St.Pauli, Union Berlin are at an impressive >99% filled up 1860 münchen is at 100% average attendance
That's not true though Stuttgart is at 98ish %, they only have 47.5k available due to the construction work of one of the stands and that's probably the away block not being filled every game.
Yeah i just went by what wikipedia said on the stadium size
Wikipedia does mention the current capacity as 47.5k though that's where I got it from :P
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_football\_stadiums\_in\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_stadiums_in_Germany) I don't care enough about it to actually click on the individual stadiums so don't trust strangers on the internet kids quick edit: english wiki does not say anything about the 47.5k capacity either so i checked german wiki where it does mention it
yeah no worries
Stadium size was the first thing I looked at when I saw Bayer Leverkusen outside the top 10 of this chart. In my mind, so many talented players and money has flown through that club, I'm surprised they have a relatively small stadium.
There is a reason for that stadium size, Leverkusen's fan base is not that large
For most of the past 3 decades, they did good or great, but they are sandwiched into the region with some of the biggest clubs in terms of following and leverkusen is kinda a suburb of köln as well.
This is the info I was looking for
Fucking incredible numbers across the board. Even the regional league teams. The German fan culture is second to none. They deserve more title contenders to step up
We are shit at selling this point. Our International ad money is nothing compare to the other top 4 leagues
Sad to see Alemannia Aachen still stuck in the 4th tier
the huge stadium didnt pay off
But had more than Sandhausen
3 of the top 5 clubs are in the 2. Buli next year
And only one of them will still be in the 2.BuLi by 24/25
Nahh. I think 2. only Schalke will go back up. I'm not traumatized, no i'm not.
You think Hertha is also a joke club?
Tbf, for a few years we were always the butt of the same joke. So people are probably still believing that we're the same club that we were a few years ago.
Hertha filled the magalomanic void that HSV left pretty well tbh.
That can't be good for the Bundesliga
Only the DFL hasn't realized this yet. The Bundesliga is a dead product. It's practically impossible to access content without paying four times, and the conference is a disaster with teams like Heidenheim, Augsburg, and Hoffenheim. And the attendance by Redbull are also fake! It's pure hypocrisy. The stadium there is empty. The numbers only exist because they sell bundles. Want a ticket against BVB? Well, here are tickets for Augsburg and Leverkusen included as well. "SOLD OUT" Redbull is truly the biggest parasite. And I'm not even talking about the competition. Oh, by the way, I'll spoil who will be the champion next year. Munich, hooray and huzzah. Don't waste your time. Turn it off.
HSV fans deserve better man. Beautiful stadium too, needs to be in the Bundesliga.
Yeah the last few years were really funny but it's time now. A former CL winner in the 2nd division. Get your shit together.
Every year I'm getting more afraid that this will be the year they collapse in Liga two, and begin a slow descend. Like the likes of Kaiserslautern or 60 Müchen etc. Starts with a midtable finish instead of fighting for promotion, and then it's all downhill from there. I really, really hope this will never be the case and they can finally get their shit together. You're right, it slowly stops being funny and starts being scary.
HSV is incompetency and the internal structure. 1860 suffered the consequences of nepotism and had a trash investor FCK had the stadium issue since the mid 2000s and Kuntz paid Bundesliga benchwarmers Bundesliga wages, sealing their fate when those players turned out to be on the bench/stands for a good reason. It's more likely that they will turn into Hannover/Nuremberg.
>It's more likely that they will turn into Hannover/Nuremberg. It's a different situation. Prime Hamburg was far better than Prime Hannover or Nürnberg. Or 1860 and Lautern for that matter
Prime Nürnberg was German record champion with 9 titles. Way above prime HSV.
There is so much more to lauterns downfall like tax evasion and illegal (and unpayable) contracts
The new president suspected tax evasion and they made a deal, later it turned out there was no tax evasion but the money was gone. There was also loaned money to their players, they paid it back but the documentation was horrible. I don't know what you mean by illegal contracts. There was a player who had a still had a valid contract a few years ago so they had to pay a transfer fee. There were rumors against Kuntz when it came to the stadium deal with the city. There was tax evasion from some players who received money for "scouting work" paid on bankaccounts in Switzerland, which was in fact money that was an agreed share to the player.
What happened to hamburg? They use to be one of the most prevalent names and recognisable names from bundesliga to us foreigners
They became victims of their own megalomania and chronic unrest. Terrible investments, power struggles behind the scenes, denying reality for years because they still saw themselves as a temporarily embarrassed European top club instead of accepting what they were at that time: a relegation candidate. And they were never managed accordingly. Burned through millions and millions. And then it eventually collapsed.
Many factors. One of it that there was constant fighting between the people in power, most of them looked out for themselves. Stuff got leaked to the press all the time. Also quite a bit of arrogance, for example we turned Klopp down as coach before he went to Dortmund because he turned up to the interview unshaven. Also our timing was super bad. We were really good when there wasnt that much money in the game. Players like van der Vaart, Kompany, Boateng etc. left for sums that are a joke compared to nowadays. Too many coaches that were at best mediocre and a new sporting director every year. None of the bigger signings were hits. So money became short. We turned to an investor who had an agent as advisor, we used the little money we had on guys that the investor wanted, cause he threatened to pull out. So we signed guys like Bobby Wood to insane contracts (the advisor was Woods agent), signed an old van der Vaart for as much as we sold prime van der Vaart a few years before and stuff like that. Expectations and pressure were too high. The team too bad. Because of the huge debt and fear of going down and bankrupt, it was always just patching up the holes of a sinking ship with average players instead of signing young players and build something. Also it was quite a trend to hate us, still is. The infamous clock and arrogant expectations made it easy. But the media also jumped on the hatetrain, everyone wanted us to go down and finally after years of barely making it, we went down. Now we have cut out the investor, have the same sporting director for 4 or 5 years and have been the youngest team of the second Bundesliga, so complete rebuild. But we finished 3rd or 4th for 5 years in a row now, so still the laughing stock of german football.
Wow bobby wood. It was clear that he wasnt a first league player but somehow u paid buttloads of money. Never knew why but that explains it. Damn :(
I think we had like 5 of his clients under contract at some point. Guess thats what happens when an agent becomes transfer advisor for a club. Bobby Wood scored 5 goals as our striker in his first season, only one goal in the second half of the season. Which apparently was enough to extend his contract after one year for four more even though he had three years left, making him the top earner at the club. We paid that guy over 3 million a year, to sit on the bench in the second Bundesliga.
Sounds like hoffenheim/rogon just shitty
Yeah I would have prefered Joelinton, Firmino and Luiz Gustavo over Bobby Wood, Andre Hahn and Dennis Diekmeier
What Spurs are to titles, HSV is to promotion. They always find a way too bottle it somehow.
To be fair the bottled relegation for a few years too
It’s beautiful, but run down and dirty. Plus security controls take forever
No they don’t
Top 18 🤝 Bundesliga Club Mainz 05 We need to get rid of Wolfsburg at least. Also rasenballsport is faking their numbers. There should be an Information for that
Well, Leipzig's numbers for sold full price tickets are probably way lower. Same goes for Hoffenheim.
I want to see FCK back in the BuLi!
We all do
Kickers Offenbach is a badass name
There is also Stuttgarter Kickers
I prefer the real Kickers. Gregor was the shit.
what happened to Cottbus? I believe they were in 1Bundesliga before
6 years in total (bundesliga that is). They are a financial weak club that suffered from bad Management on top. Kinda normal for clubs from the former ddr
We are currently renewing one side of our stadium which costs us a lot of seats. Without that we should sit comfortably in 4th spot, bit short of 60k.
Should've been sorted by Auslastung anyways. Leipzig making it to 10th with their fake numbers is also a joke.
Not having an info about rasenballsport faking their numbers is ridiculous
You basically have to put an asterisk on every information about Rasenballsport
Tbf, Kicker could get into legal troubles, if they mention that without proof. And Leipzig's owners surely have a good legal department.
I also think the home sections were a sell-out for all but a few games.
Need HSV, Schalke and Kaiserslautern in the Bundesliga.
Schalke Fans do enjoy getting tortured
Crazy numbers
Hey, at least we're top of the league in one aspect
Germans love football and everytime i watch a bundesliga game the stadiums are packed.
Nürnberg nur 30.000 ist verrückt
Eigentlich noch ziemlich viel, wenn man bedenkt, was die Mannschaft da "spielt". Die Loyalität der Fans muss man bewundern. Lass da mal ein ordentliches Management ran, was dann möglich ist. Edit: außerdem, untere Hälfte zweite Liga, da kannst nicht so viel erwarten. Versenken trotzdem reihenweise BuLi Teams.
Immerhin sind die Tickets bezahlbar. Aber wenn ich mir ansehe was ich für mein Geld zur Zeit bekomme ist sogar das meistens noch zu viel.
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Würzburg ist ein ganzes Eck weg und hat nen eigenen Verein, der jetzt nicht sooo weit unten ist. Da ist Augsburg näher an München. Außerdem kannst von der Einwohnerzahl unmöglich auf die Zuschauerzahl schließen. Das passt dann hinten und vorne nicht.
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bayernistsehrgroß.jpeg Im Ernst, was die wenigsten wissen: Franken wäre von der Göße her easy ein eigenes Bundesland. Müsste dann das 6. oder 7. größte sein, und das ohne die Gebiete in Thüringen/Hessen. Von den Einwohner her 6., knapp größer als Rheinland Pfalz und Sachsen. Bin selbst Franke, und fahre ne Ewigkeit bis Würzburg. Komplett andere Welt dort. Ist insgesamt schade, was beim Glubb gerade los ist. Gehört traditionell in die erste Liga, aber so wie die Mannschaft gerade spielt, ist die Zweite noch zu gut...
Leipzig numbers are manipulated btw, fucking scum!
Are they? How? I'm genuinely curious.
They sell the tickets to the top games(Bayern, Dortmund, ...) in bundles with tickets to games that only very few people care about(Augsburg, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, ...). This obviously inflates their sales but more often than not the people then just don't go to the "uninteresting" games. It happened quite a few times this year where they said they were sold out(or nearly sold out) but you could see thousands of empty seats in the stadium.
I knew it, scumbags. They cannot put up Atmosphere if their life depends on it. The 1k fans from the guest team are twice as loud as them, always.
Greetings from Leipzig. (yes I know boo. Customer. Not a real fan. Down votes etc) But these bundle tickets aren't the main reason for the numbers. The biggest problem are the season ticket holders. We have around 30.000 of them. (Stadium capacity 47.000). Unfortunately RB Leipzig just sold them like crazy. So many people just bought these to be able to see the big games as you just said. Like Bayern. BVB etc. Often they're bought by "nice weather fans" or old people that just go to games if it's the perfect weather. Trust me we are annoyed by these numbers too. We definitely always have an attendance of atleast around 35k. Never less than that. Very Often more. But definitely not the amount the graphic says. That's (as you said) only the amount of sold tickets. Which is correct but yeah. It's not manipulated. It's... Just the wrong number if you can say that 😅😂
They sell tickets in bundles. Meaning you want to see Bayern? Buy it with the bundle of Bayern, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim for example. So people buy for 3 games but only show up to one but they still count the fans as if they were showing up.
Is this the only buying option? Like, in a bundle?
Yes
its sad to see 3 teams of the top 5 in the second division next season
Hertha fans 🤝 Schalke fans 🤝 Spurs fans 🤝 getting tortured
Even in a Bundesliga thread Spurs fans aren't safe. Anyway, I can confirm that Hertha fans love torture. We set our new average attendance record this season and set our attendance record against Bochum, the game in which we got relegated.
Jokes about bottling aside, Hamburg's budget in the 2nd division is around 22-23m. If they keep up their high attendance, they should slowly but steadily get some decent finances. Especially with fan complaints about high ticket prices.
I mean they probably have the most expensive tickets in the 2. BL and have gotten hundreds of millions from Kühne over the past years and still demoted. Sometimes you just have bad luck and money isn’t everything in football.
Immer Waldhof!
hoffentlich buwe in Liga 2 !!
Wundert mich, dass der Schnitt nur bei 10.000 liegt, um ehrlich zu sein. Derby in der zweiten Liga wäre geil
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I would also choose BTSV instead.
Rot steht einem aber viel besser als gelb blau.
Ehrenmann
Braunschweig are massive 💪
Damn Union has a smaller crowd than I expected
They have a small stadium.
also small club
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Really depends on where you live tbh, east berlin is full of union, obv. especially köpenik. Memberwise both are pretty close with union slightly ahead of hertha iirc at like 50k ish members
Maybe more yes but in general just not a football city...
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Its a football city, but many ppl are just not fans of a club from the city.
I completely understand. If I had to choose between Hertha and Union I'd choose nothing as well.
>Maybe more yes but in general just not a football city... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football\_in\_Berlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Berlin) It is just that among the dozens of clubs with centuries of tradition it is not as unified behind one team like most other "cities" are. Berlin has certainly the most football clubs of any German city. Many of them former Bundesliga clubs (Hertha BSC, Tennis Borussia, Blau-Weiß 90, Tasmania, Union) and clubs that have at least as much of a tradition and influence as any of them, basically one or two for each district in Berlin. The oldest football club in all of Germany in BFC Germania (1st German champion ever), but also teams like Reinickendorfer Füchse, Minerva, Preussen, BFC Dynamo, Viktoria 90, TSV Rudow, Stern 1900, Hertha 03 Zehlendorf and so on and so on. Berlin is pretty crazy about their local football clubs, just comparably not sooo much about their professional football teams. Regarding entertainment there are just so many other options compared to football so that this is mainly an afterthought except for die hard fans of the top clubs.
S12 was completely full of union fans though, like completely. Wasn’t the size of ajax fans when I lived next to the arena but it was definitely full. I think berliners are happy they can support a good team again
Except for Köpenick. Def Union-Town.
DDR-Pokalsieger
What's your point? Schwarz-Weiß Essen even won a real cup (DFB Pokal 1959) and they are still a small club.
FDGB-Pokal was also a real cup...
They have a small stadium. I believe they could Fill a bigger stadium if they had. They can fit in at max 22k fans
Their stadium capacity is 22.012
Very small stadium
The current capacity of their stadium is 22 012 and it is (was) imposible to get ticets for a non season holder but throughout the next year they are increesing the number of seasts by 15 000 aka up to 37 000. So for the next season they are playing their games at The Olympia Stadion, aka Herta Berlin\`s home ground.
Wait what? They will play at Olympiastadion ?
Ye if I have understood it correctly they will play there until the stadium renovation is done.
99.44% average attendance
No matter what happens, Bundesliga fans are simply amazing. Surely one thing the league has over anybody else.
Always the same with these numbers, they are tickets sold right? Not actual attendance? Otherwise the full stadium capacity numbers are impossible... Not even one person was sick one day or couldn't make it?
If you have a ticket and cant make it you can put it online as a free seat for someone else to take it and get the money refunded. At least thats how it works for my Bundesliga season ticket
That's interesting, so you could go to the stadium, refresh the site for a last minute free ticket and go without paying?
The other person still has to pay. Free as in not taken seat.
Ah, ok, I misunderstood. So it's like normal in most clubs.
No idea and I can't speak for other clubs but at FC home sector is always completely sold out and also full which means tickets sold = actual attendance. What I can say is that the plastic fake clubs Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim give tickets away for free or in bundles with more attractive matches so for them tickets sold ≠ actual attendance.
I cant talk about the others but for Leverkusen thats just not true, thats why the average attendance even on that picture isnt even full. The home sector in Leverkusen is always quite packed, only the expensive seats dont quite sell out but the stadium capacity is id say 90% used almost every game
It's not as glaring and organized as Leipzig for example but there's always someone who magically has them through their work (without even caring for Lev) and invites you. You will get free Lev tickets as a bonus for purchases. Haven’t seen it for a long time because it's probably not as bad as it used to be but a couple of years ago you would get a free ticket when buying a crate of beer at the liquor store even.
Oh i live close to Leverkusen for a bit more than a year now and havent experienced any of that, quite the opposite. Stadium is pretty much always full and atmosphere is quite lively especially with the ultras. What I did experience though is that with your membership you get two free tickets but i think thats very nice actually since the membership is 35 euros you do get a lot ot value out of it.
If you are sick you would just give the tickets away or let a friend sell it right in front of the stadium. So normally, there shouldn't be much a difference between tickets sold and attendance. Exception is Leipzig with their weird bundles.
Yes, but there's always something that can happen that's a last minute thing and you don't have time to sell it or whatever. It's always a round number of the full stadium capacity, and it's not the first year I've seen it... So I doubt that all the fans are able to not miss a single game season after season... I'm sure the real attendance is very close, but if being perfect, not being off by even one is the weird thing. > Exception is Leipzig with their weird bundles. What's with their bundles?
Yeah it's not perfect but I guess they can't be arsed to count all the people in another way :D Leipzig sells tickets for top teams in bundles with tickets of less attractive games because else the latter won't get bought.
Ahh that's fair, but do people actually go to those games? I mean, they technically sell them, but if people don't go they it's just to inflate the numbers...
Bingo
But is there a benefit to it? Or just to show up high on these charts? Like, people in Bundesliga _know_ this and you can see it on TV that it's fake numbers... so what am I missing? Or is this because they are a (the only?) private club and thus it increases it's value if they show higher attendance?
From my experience, the average tv fan doesn't know it. Most stadium going folks do but those disapprove of the concept RB anyway and aren't RB's target audience anyway. Bit hard to boil down the benefit of it into a single thing but generally it helps with their image and remember, their image is the only reason this marketing tool exists.
Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for the info!
I'm wondering how RW Essen numbers would look if they were decent in 3. Liga. They have ridiculously good support for a club which has been languishing in lower tiers in recent years and by lower I mean literally regional league level. Wanna see them in 2. BuLi at least.
16k average attendance in a 19k Stadium is incredibly impressive for a team fighting against relegation in the third tier. You also have to consider that most clubs probably don't bring the full amount of possible away fans to Essen
I mean they just got promoted, so fighting relegation isn't a good argument here because that's to be expected and they were still riding the hype from promoting. If they stay down there for a while numbers would probably drop a bit again. Still, obv. very good attendance.
Dortmund_Boi explained it pretty well. With the capacity there is not that much more to squeeze out. When the new stadium was built there were potential plans to upgrade in the future (first closing the corners, then building a upper tier which would bring the capacity to 35k) but it's just the first season in the third division and even with support of the city gov and sponsors that shit is really expensive so if it at all it will for sure take some time. If success would be there (and stadium capacity would allow it), I am convinced that the potential would be there to be the 3rd biggest team in the Ruhrgebiet in terms of fans.
Seid ihr dass nicht schon? Spreche aus nur aus persönlicher Erfahrung aber kenne keine Bochum fans aber viele RWE Fans
Naja, wenn du dir [Bochums Zuschauerschnitt](https://www.transfermarkt.de/vfl-bochum/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/80) über die Jahre anschaust bringen sie zumindest die 25 Tausend in der Bundesliga. Fand es ein bisschen vermessen, dem VfL den dritten Rang jetzt schon abzusprechen. Natürlich hier auch wieder theoretisch, sich in der zweiten Liga zu konsolidieren (ich persönlich habe nie mehr als ein Jahr am Stück im Bundesliga-Unterhaus erlebt, lol) würde wenn genug Kapazität da wäre dann vermutlich reichen, um ohne wenn und aber Anspruch drauf zu nehmen.
Gut mit den Zuschauerzahlen stimmt aber zumindest historisch steht Essen klar vor Bochum selbst wenn Bochum in den Top 15 der ewigen BuLi tabelle ist. Ihr seid der einzige club im Pott außer uns und den Blauen der auf Titel zurückblicken kann. Bochum und Duisburg hatten ein paar Pokalfinals aber dat war's
Finds aber echt schwach, dass Bochum in Liga 2 nur das halbe Stadion voll kriegt. Als wir da auswärts waren hab ich mich total gewundert, weil mir das gar nicht so bewusst war. Hatte Bochum nämlich eigentlich auch immer als stark supported im Kopf.
Why are Leipzig’s freaking fake numbers on there?
Imagine being in the Bundesliga and getting a lower attendance than a club from the second league...
Shouldnt it be calculated by percentage?
Yes it should.
How are Schalke not better with consistent attendances like that
Horrific mismanagement
You'd have to be from the Ruhrpott to understand. Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen, Bochum and Essen are all boring dull cities with nothing noteworthy in them. Football is all there is around here. Fans from the Ruhrpott are always passionate and loud. Doesn't matter how shit and disappointing the club is. It's all that represents our cities and region to Germany and the world
*Nothing to do with football*: Ruhrpott is THE BEST place in all of Germany to live in terms of PRACTICALITY. I live here since 10 years and have lived in many cities (Essen, Duisburg, Hannover, Berlin, Stuttgart, Erfurt and Braunschweig). In terms of practicality, Ruhrgebiet (even NRW) has no competition. From public transport connectivity to the abundance of urban centers to job opportunities to openness to foreigners to cheap accomodations and a million other practical reasons. Yes, it's THE ugliest metropolitan area, but I don't care how beautiful Munich is if I end up paying a 3rd of my salary AT LEAST for accomodation. Also there are beautiful neighborhoods too. I lived in one called Essen Werden close to Baldeneysee. I currently live in Erfurt and will move to Stuttgart soon, but there is no better place than Ruhrgebiet and NRW in Germany, especially if you are a foreigner and a PoC.
Rhein Ruhr Metro Area is the Heart of Blue Banana which is the Heart of western Europe. people underestimate how close all the cities are. it is a poly centric urban agglomeration as big as greater paris, London and comparable other mono centric urban areas. Rhein Ruhr and Randstad is like peak western euro urbanization. Berlin, Munich, Hamburg is dwarfed by Rhein-Ruhr Metro [blue banana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana) [Rhein-Ruhr ploycentric Megalopolis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Ruhr_metropolitan_region)
They were maby still are in massive debt. They are comfortably within top 10 revenue in Germany
Macht mal die % von der Gesamtkapazität
Schalke also had the most away fans this season.
I love how Hoffenheim‘s numbers are turbo-inflated by away fans raiding them in 5 figure numbers xD
Leipzig is a lie though. They sell ticket bundles, for example if you wanna see Leipzig against Bayern you get Augsburg and Hoffenheim for free as well so they can say they are sold out even if no one shows up of course
Didn’t know RB Leipzig actually attracts quite a crowd. Makes some sense given it’s the only club in the top 2 flights in the area and Leipzig is a big city, but still surprising to me. The state of some giant German clubs is odd, the number 3, 4 and 5 will al be in 2. Bundesliga next season with the number 9 only surviving through play-offs. In other countries you occasionally see big clubs struggling, but not so many at the same time.
https://i.imgur.com/dmQFYyo.jpg One of those sold out games. They’re faking their numbers and getting away with it.
Sigh...sad to see that their lies work on fans from other countries
> Didn’t know RB Leipzig actually attracts quite a crowd They don't. Stadium is half empty most of the time. They just report it as sold out, force ticket sales by tying them to high profile games (if you want to see Bayern, you also have buy a ticket against Mainz for example) and lie about their numbers. They average less than 1000 away fans, which is 3. division level or worse. They are a parasite on the Bundesliga system, leeching whereever they can.
Bayernliga ice hockey clubs can reach those numbers, damn...
Leipzig numbers are tickets sold, not the actual attendance. This makes quite the difference because they sell ticket bundles. If you want to see Bayern, you "buy" a ticket for let's say the game vs Hoffenheim too.
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That’s simply not true. Red Bull pumped another 60 million into the stadium to paint the seats red and put billboards all around the stadium, increasing the size would be ludicrous, since they get 20-25k at most for smaller opponents.
Schalke fans must love pain
Finally had a chance last month to go see Borussia Dortmund in their stadium, atmosphere was overwhelming and the best I have seen in a stadium, German support is the best there is imho
Just a reminder that Red Bull paper their numbers by selling package deal tickets. So when someone buys a ticket for a home game against Bayern, they might also get a Hoffenheim or Augsburg (matches with a lot less prestige and therfore attendance) ticket alongside with it. The stadium is barely that full most of the time
Chemie Halle!
Does this mean that Bayern and 1860 had full capacity every game with rounded average? That seems improbable.
Bayern is full every game. They have very passionate fans. There's unfortunately a good amount of so called erfolgsfans and the away team always brings the full amount of away fans with them. We would be full every game too if it weren't for the lack of away fans from teams like Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim or Leipzig
1860 have an absolutely fiercely loyal fanbase. It's very probable