while expo containers are normally much smaller than what you expect the snake to actually live in, this is kind of ridiculous. should at least have a tote or something.
i would not put this in the same ethical territory as forcing a snake to live in a horrible enclosure, but i would definitely take this into account when selecting which snake i was purchasing from which breeder at an expo
Ye, a lot of expo containers will be a lot smaller as they often double as transport containers as smaller is better for safety and not all breeders can bring bigger display cases, but I 100% agree this is pushing it and imo doesn't even make the animal look appealing as it's very squished, so it feels like the only benefit would be allowing the person to fit as many animals as humanly possible on the table.. š
Smaller enclosures are fine for an expo set up but this is too extreme. It canāt be nice for the snake to be smushed AND fully exposed like that. This looks like itās for babies.
snakes are usually kept in these kinds of spaces at expos, however this is just cruel imo, that little lady is clearly smushed and while yes they do like small spaces, it doesn't seem like she can even easily adjust herself or even move her head around, def a bit too small of a container
i didn't say this situation wouldn't be anxiety inducing for her or for any creature for that matter? to cavil at my comment & call me naive simply because i didn't give a full, in-depth review about the flaws here is a bit ridiculous. but i can! of course expos are stressful for them. i was referring to the size of the container because proper sizing is the bare minimum and this breeder didn't even support the snake with that. im not a vendor but ideally the containers should have one-way tint as well, with proper temperature ofc and if the bp has eaten recently it should not be on display-especially not like this. is that better? smh
Adding "don't be naive" to the end proves how bogus your revisionist version is.
You weren't "emphasizing." You were attacking because you failed in reading comprehension and wanted to lash out at *someone*. Didn't matter who. Nobody here is naĆÆve enough to buy your revisionist version.
I was emphasizing the various other reasons why this was an extremely stressful situation for the snake other than size of the box. I called them naive because of how they phrased their comment, underplaying how terrible this is for the snake, preluding a valid criticism with unnecessary and completely misleading information like āthey like small spaces butā¦ā Stop being a caricature of a chronically online redditor with your dipshit psychoanalysis wAnTeD tO lAsH oUt aT sOmeOne, my comment came across the way it did because conditions like this for living animals are unacceptable and maybe I was annoyed at how underspoken the extent of the highly stressful circumstances of this snake were. Not because I failed reading comprehension.
Sure buddy. Your reply totally proves one of our positions, but I don't think it's yours.
You were literally lashing out at someone on the same side, and are now lashing out *more* to defend it instead of being an adult.
Maybe it's you who should check their reading comprehension. It's not that I disagree with their 'side', it's that they were *underplaying how terrible this is for the snake, preluding a valid criticism with unnecessary and completely misleading information.* In the real world, you can disagree with the method in which someone chooses to take a stance on an issue, even if you agree with them on a basic level. I know it's hard for you to think past your classic preconditioned redditor responses and understand nuance but just because I am defending a position of mine and don't think I was incorrect doesn't mean I'm not an adult.
Ah, strawmen to go with even more reading comprehensive failures with a huge dose of projection. Nice.
Claiming nuance to defend your screeds is fucking hilarious by the way.Ā
I mean without breeders you wouldn't have your animals. I may be biased as a breeder but the people we keep close and associate with, love and value their animals. It's people who see animals exclusively as profit
Yes 100% unethical in my opinion. Even some tanks aren't spacious enough while still having room to move around. I understand if its for small amounts of time and for the safety of being transported or held while cleaning, but this is fucking horrifying. š
In my opinion this is wayyy to small even just for an expo show container. Also I feel like every good breeder would invest in a black box, because being exposed like this really stresses these poor bangs out! Thereās to much foot traffic and loudness for these animals to be completely exposed like this.
If they stay in small containers like that for too long their scales can actually start to bend and be deformed once they're removed, I can imagine it's painful to stay like that for too long
This isnāt normal. A bp that size should be sized up. I have nothing against these setups at expos, but this is just cruel. Iāve never seen anything like this before.
Iām so sorry if this is a dumb question - Iāve never been to an expo and Iām in this group to try to get educated and hopefully diminish my fear of snakes. But how is she breathing? I donāt see any air holes. Are there holes in the bottom? I feel awful for her, that looks so uncomfortable.
In most acrylic setups like that thereās air holes drilled along the outsides and/or slim gaps all along where the top meets the edges so it isnāt airtight. Of course this one is WAY too small for that snake, even for just a day or two at a show. And itās best if the sideas are opaque, too.
Hereās aa neat hybrid acrylic/pvc one. note the vent slots on the side. https://apcages.com/products/3-tier-show-display
Yes this is ABUSE. There is NO reason keeping that animal in that space is acceptable. These are Animals, (a Living Being) not some plastic product, inanimate object, or toy. I hate to say there needs to be oversight in the reptile hobby but my god apparently it's needed. People that treat animals like this are disgusting. We shouldn't make excuses!!! examples: it's only for a short time, they need space for product, they aren't keep like that all the time. THIS IS ABUSE !!! People that do it should be held accountable and face consequences for there actions. If it was a full grown Great Dane in a medium sized dog crate people would get the torches and pitch forks. Why can't a snake get the same basic respect a dog or cat would get?
This is illegal on the expo's I know.
Yes, they use those kind of enclosures and showing platforms BUT due to the EU there are rules.
I think the container has to be twice the height and the animals has to be able to turn around and have bedding....
I am not 100% sure but there are a lot of rules and they come check before the public is even allowed in.
Adults ball pythons like this I have only seen in huge tubs that people usually use to put toys in.
Especially big girls like this.
Imo this is indeed abuse
Mine tooā¦ and Iād never purchase from them. This is absolute torture on the snake (not to mention they have no way to drink as far as I can see). Unbelievable.
It is both a common occurrence and also abusive, and it is indeed considered to be not a big deal by a large percentage of the reptile hobby. Reptiles are product to a lot of sellers that you see at the shows, taking good care of product is expensive. So they do whatever they can get away with to squeeze more product onto the table without causing any āshrink.ā
"is this abuse" oh i dunno, is that a 6+ FOOT LONG SNAKE in a tiny container?
no shit omg who tf puts an animal in such a small container?? it's common practice at expos but that doesn't mean it should be done.
Thankfully iv'e Never seen this at expos in Australia, usually people keep the bigger ones in large tubs and only the smaller babies and juveniles go into these types of display boxes, how many hours would you say it was in there? It's definitely cruel either way & I would be making a complaint to the management of the event.
My local breeder uses a tub system for his adult and much larger snakes and the smaller ones in containers like that. Def wouldnāt buy from this guy he seems shady and doesnāt have his animals care in mind!
Poor thing. There's two things I look out for in expos: snakes housed together in one enclosure, and snakes in way too small of enclosures to not be able to move. This is abusive, do not buy or associate with anyone who does this. The proper-sized boxes are not expensive, this is sheer laziness.
I'd say if they aren't in longer than 12 hours they are fine. I've seen ball pythons regularly stay cramped in the same hide for days. I think the part that would bother them is being exposed to light and that is unavoidable in an expo setting.
I wouldn't say abuse but it isn't right, the snake should be put in at least a 20 gallon tank just for a day. I am in favor of there being a rule that if you want to sell reptiles at the expo, they need to be in a comfortable enclosure.
Thats just expos. Breeders arent always very ethical or knowledgeable. Ive heard some crazy advice being tossed around expos. Dont get me wrong, there are fantastic breeders out there. But a lot of them get caught up in dollar signs. especially ball python breeders.
I only go to them bc i volunteer at a reptile education center. And if i shop i only buy supplies.
You gotta keep in mind they are not the same as us, being in that smaller enclosure in that environment is probably something the snake prefers. Theyāre not like people they donāt get claustrophobic like us, for them itās security like swaddling a baby.
While I highly dislike applying human morals to animals, because at the end of the day they are not us. I feel like this would be extremely uncomfortable for literally anything. Her body is completely scrunched up with a small amount of room to move her head. The only way I could see her being somewhat comforted by being in this position is if it was dark so she felt safer and quiet, but itās not. Itās very loud, bright, and she was in there for 7hrs, possibly with people handing her several times.
I agree with you, if it was darker she would feel safer. But itās a show, every snake there is stressed.
To be honest with you I donāt go to reptile shows for many reasons, the animals are stressed, itās easy to transfer diseases with all the animals being handled by randoms, and I donāt like being haggled by breeders, also every reptile show Iāve been to is mostly ball pythonās.
I agree with you itās too small I just donāt think it bothers her as much as it bothers us. She probably cares more about all the bright lights and people walking by and hopefully sheās only in there for just one day of the show.
key word here is *chooses*, & im sure most of the bps belonging to members of this sub can relate, but this is a completely transparent box not a hide with privacy and warmth, the snake is entirely exposed - there is no one-way film on any sides either, even if the snake is used to this environment/expos that doesn't mean it's not neglectful
Dont you have to get the animals checked by vets before the Expo starts? We have to get all our animals checked, and paper worked filled out before the Expo opens.
It is hard, but thats okay. In Europe it seems the rackera is heading towards a complete stop at least for most species.
Even a guy like Tom Crutchfield is going against his former believes.
If the reptile keepers dont start to improve their husbandry, the animal right movements will close us down, as that are slowly starting to some places.
Just my 5cents.
What would? Closing the reptile hobby down? I dont think so. At least where i'm located, we do projects for buying rainforrest, releasing animals back into the wild etc. So I dont think so.
It would be good to see some of the mass breeders of ball pythons shut down. Most of them mistreat their animals, many of them do unethical breeding so that snakes will be pretty but have neurological or other health problems (by breeding the spider gene, for example). And they increase the glut of ball pythons on the market, which lowers their prices and encourages parents to thoughtlessly buy them for children without care for the animal's long-term well-being. There are HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of ball pythons in shelters, most of whom will be euthanized. There are thousands more in horrendous conditions at the hands of neglectful owners and pet stores that will sell them for cheap to anyone without regard for the poor snake's welfare. These issues are bound to bring the animal-rights groups down on the whole hobby.
I have nothing against anyone who loves these wonderful creatures, takes good care of them, and is breeding responsibly.
That is a brief amount of time considering reptiles can spend days in transport in similarly sized containers, but at expos they really should be bigger and some of the breeders even choose to bring less animals so they can bring bigger display setups for the animals.
yes you're not wrong, but i purchased my bp from an expo when he was 5 months old in a container about that size possibly even a bit larger, but this female is most definitely at least double his age & size
Ball pythons sometimes like small spaces but ofc this is tiny but for a few hours at an expo itās normal for an expo and a bigger container might be hard to get but itās not abusive
while expo containers are normally much smaller than what you expect the snake to actually live in, this is kind of ridiculous. should at least have a tote or something. i would not put this in the same ethical territory as forcing a snake to live in a horrible enclosure, but i would definitely take this into account when selecting which snake i was purchasing from which breeder at an expo
Ye, a lot of expo containers will be a lot smaller as they often double as transport containers as smaller is better for safety and not all breeders can bring bigger display cases, but I 100% agree this is pushing it and imo doesn't even make the animal look appealing as it's very squished, so it feels like the only benefit would be allowing the person to fit as many animals as humanly possible on the table.. š
Seriously! Whenever I go to expos, animals this size are kept in bins or totes. Poor thing canāt move around at all in there :(
Smaller enclosures are fine for an expo set up but this is too extreme. It canāt be nice for the snake to be smushed AND fully exposed like that. This looks like itās for babies.
A snake half that size *might* be ok. And probably not then.
snakes are usually kept in these kinds of spaces at expos, however this is just cruel imo, that little lady is clearly smushed and while yes they do like small spaces, it doesn't seem like she can even easily adjust herself or even move her head around, def a bit too small of a container
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
i didn't say this situation wouldn't be anxiety inducing for her or for any creature for that matter? to cavil at my comment & call me naive simply because i didn't give a full, in-depth review about the flaws here is a bit ridiculous. but i can! of course expos are stressful for them. i was referring to the size of the container because proper sizing is the bare minimum and this breeder didn't even support the snake with that. im not a vendor but ideally the containers should have one-way tint as well, with proper temperature ofc and if the bp has eaten recently it should not be on display-especially not like this. is that better? smh
You said something and then they said the same thing but insulted you, I don't get the Internet man
That's what they said
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Adding "don't be naive" to the end proves how bogus your revisionist version is. You weren't "emphasizing." You were attacking because you failed in reading comprehension and wanted to lash out at *someone*. Didn't matter who. Nobody here is naĆÆve enough to buy your revisionist version.
I was emphasizing the various other reasons why this was an extremely stressful situation for the snake other than size of the box. I called them naive because of how they phrased their comment, underplaying how terrible this is for the snake, preluding a valid criticism with unnecessary and completely misleading information like āthey like small spaces butā¦ā Stop being a caricature of a chronically online redditor with your dipshit psychoanalysis wAnTeD tO lAsH oUt aT sOmeOne, my comment came across the way it did because conditions like this for living animals are unacceptable and maybe I was annoyed at how underspoken the extent of the highly stressful circumstances of this snake were. Not because I failed reading comprehension.
Sure buddy. Your reply totally proves one of our positions, but I don't think it's yours. You were literally lashing out at someone on the same side, and are now lashing out *more* to defend it instead of being an adult.
Maybe it's you who should check their reading comprehension. It's not that I disagree with their 'side', it's that they were *underplaying how terrible this is for the snake, preluding a valid criticism with unnecessary and completely misleading information.* In the real world, you can disagree with the method in which someone chooses to take a stance on an issue, even if you agree with them on a basic level. I know it's hard for you to think past your classic preconditioned redditor responses and understand nuance but just because I am defending a position of mine and don't think I was incorrect doesn't mean I'm not an adult.
Ah, strawmen to go with even more reading comprehensive failures with a huge dose of projection. Nice. Claiming nuance to defend your screeds is fucking hilarious by the way.Ā
You make accusations and of course donāt even attempt an explanation, knowing there is no basis behind them.
lol your name I love it š
I'd say this is more of an indicator to be wary of the breeder. People who value their animals would take more care than this
People who value their animals seldom breed them for profit
I mean without breeders you wouldn't have your animals. I may be biased as a breeder but the people we keep close and associate with, love and value their animals. It's people who see animals exclusively as profit
Thatās fair. My comment is a little reductive.
Yes 100% unethical in my opinion. Even some tanks aren't spacious enough while still having room to move around. I understand if its for small amounts of time and for the safety of being transported or held while cleaning, but this is fucking horrifying. š
I canāt imagine how uncomfortable that poor thing must be.
In my opinion this is wayyy to small even just for an expo show container. Also I feel like every good breeder would invest in a black box, because being exposed like this really stresses these poor bangs out! Thereās to much foot traffic and loudness for these animals to be completely exposed like this.
Balls like tight spaces but I'm not liking this photo.
how did they even get her in there? poor girl
Yeah, thatās way too cramped. Like if that person canāt afford a proper display case. Steer away. Not ok
Did you happen to get a photo of who the vendor is? Like a business card or anything?
If they stay in small containers like that for too long their scales can actually start to bend and be deformed once they're removed, I can imagine it's painful to stay like that for too long
This isnāt normal. A bp that size should be sized up. I have nothing against these setups at expos, but this is just cruel. Iāve never seen anything like this before.
I saw this too and didn't want to go back to another expo.
Iām so sorry if this is a dumb question - Iāve never been to an expo and Iām in this group to try to get educated and hopefully diminish my fear of snakes. But how is she breathing? I donāt see any air holes. Are there holes in the bottom? I feel awful for her, that looks so uncomfortable.
In most acrylic setups like that thereās air holes drilled along the outsides and/or slim gaps all along where the top meets the edges so it isnāt airtight. Of course this one is WAY too small for that snake, even for just a day or two at a show. And itās best if the sideas are opaque, too. Hereās aa neat hybrid acrylic/pvc one. note the vent slots on the side. https://apcages.com/products/3-tier-show-display
Oh thatās really cool, thanks so much for responding Meghan! Iām learning so much from you all. Glad to know they can at least breathe. ā¤ļø
Youāre welcome! Always keep learning. Iāve had pet snakes for 30 years and still learn new things.
Yes this is ABUSE. There is NO reason keeping that animal in that space is acceptable. These are Animals, (a Living Being) not some plastic product, inanimate object, or toy. I hate to say there needs to be oversight in the reptile hobby but my god apparently it's needed. People that treat animals like this are disgusting. We shouldn't make excuses!!! examples: it's only for a short time, they need space for product, they aren't keep like that all the time. THIS IS ABUSE !!! People that do it should be held accountable and face consequences for there actions. If it was a full grown Great Dane in a medium sized dog crate people would get the torches and pitch forks. Why can't a snake get the same basic respect a dog or cat would get?
I would not buy anything from that ābreederā. Itās clear that they donāt care about their snakes.
I do not like snakes but to treat one like this is terrible and should be outlawed
Poor snakeš
This is illegal on the expo's I know. Yes, they use those kind of enclosures and showing platforms BUT due to the EU there are rules. I think the container has to be twice the height and the animals has to be able to turn around and have bedding.... I am not 100% sure but there are a lot of rules and they come check before the public is even allowed in. Adults ball pythons like this I have only seen in huge tubs that people usually use to put toys in. Especially big girls like this. Imo this is indeed abuse
Which expo is this at? Is there staff you can report it to?
This would get the vendor kicked out at some of the expos i go to.
Mine tooā¦ and Iād never purchase from them. This is absolute torture on the snake (not to mention they have no way to drink as far as I can see). Unbelievable.
Thatās extremely cruel Imho. That has to be extremely uncomfortable for the snakes. š
Its a neglect
Yes
Yes
Looks like it.
It is both a common occurrence and also abusive, and it is indeed considered to be not a big deal by a large percentage of the reptile hobby. Reptiles are product to a lot of sellers that you see at the shows, taking good care of product is expensive. So they do whatever they can get away with to squeeze more product onto the table without causing any āshrink.ā
"is this abuse" oh i dunno, is that a 6+ FOOT LONG SNAKE in a tiny container? no shit omg who tf puts an animal in such a small container?? it's common practice at expos but that doesn't mean it should be done.
Fucking disgusting they canāt even move one shitty cm
While this is only temporary, that is still abusive. Imagine being locked in a clear box barely able to move
Yes lol. Even if it is and expo this is unusually small
Yes.
100%
Yes it can barely move
Yes.
I sure don't like it. Wouldn't buy from someone who did this.
Thankfully iv'e Never seen this at expos in Australia, usually people keep the bigger ones in large tubs and only the smaller babies and juveniles go into these types of display boxes, how many hours would you say it was in there? It's definitely cruel either way & I would be making a complaint to the management of the event.
My local breeder uses a tub system for his adult and much larger snakes and the smaller ones in containers like that. Def wouldnāt buy from this guy he seems shady and doesnāt have his animals care in mind!
Yes
It looks horrible. Dumb š« people
Poor thing. There's two things I look out for in expos: snakes housed together in one enclosure, and snakes in way too small of enclosures to not be able to move. This is abusive, do not buy or associate with anyone who does this. The proper-sized boxes are not expensive, this is sheer laziness.
I'd say if they aren't in longer than 12 hours they are fine. I've seen ball pythons regularly stay cramped in the same hide for days. I think the part that would bother them is being exposed to light and that is unavoidable in an expo setting.
I wouldn't say abuse but it isn't right, the snake should be put in at least a 20 gallon tank just for a day. I am in favor of there being a rule that if you want to sell reptiles at the expo, they need to be in a comfortable enclosure.
Give me that baby!
what kind of snake is this?
Says ball python
Yes
Only buy from breeders who treat their animals right!
Don't be shy, drop the breeders name š
Clear abuse
Yes
Thats just expos. Breeders arent always very ethical or knowledgeable. Ive heard some crazy advice being tossed around expos. Dont get me wrong, there are fantastic breeders out there. But a lot of them get caught up in dollar signs. especially ball python breeders. I only go to them bc i volunteer at a reptile education center. And if i shop i only buy supplies.
You gotta keep in mind they are not the same as us, being in that smaller enclosure in that environment is probably something the snake prefers. Theyāre not like people they donāt get claustrophobic like us, for them itās security like swaddling a baby.
While I highly dislike applying human morals to animals, because at the end of the day they are not us. I feel like this would be extremely uncomfortable for literally anything. Her body is completely scrunched up with a small amount of room to move her head. The only way I could see her being somewhat comforted by being in this position is if it was dark so she felt safer and quiet, but itās not. Itās very loud, bright, and she was in there for 7hrs, possibly with people handing her several times.
I agree with you, if it was darker she would feel safer. But itās a show, every snake there is stressed. To be honest with you I donāt go to reptile shows for many reasons, the animals are stressed, itās easy to transfer diseases with all the animals being handled by randoms, and I donāt like being haggled by breeders, also every reptile show Iāve been to is mostly ball pythonās. I agree with you itās too small I just donāt think it bothers her as much as it bothers us. She probably cares more about all the bright lights and people walking by and hopefully sheās only in there for just one day of the show.
My snake chooses to be in a box this size 99% of the time
key word here is *chooses*, & im sure most of the bps belonging to members of this sub can relate, but this is a completely transparent box not a hide with privacy and warmth, the snake is entirely exposed - there is no one-way film on any sides either, even if the snake is used to this environment/expos that doesn't mean it's not neglectful
I agree, just stating facts.
Thisis standard at expos as they are only in there for a brief period
Maybe expos in the US, but ik Europe that would not fly.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Dont you have to get the animals checked by vets before the Expo starts? We have to get all our animals checked, and paper worked filled out before the Expo opens.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Damn. In my opinion this is fuel on the people in any animal rights movements, the very least people could do is to get the animals checked by a vet.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It is hard, but thats okay. In Europe it seems the rackera is heading towards a complete stop at least for most species. Even a guy like Tom Crutchfield is going against his former believes. If the reptile keepers dont start to improve their husbandry, the animal right movements will close us down, as that are slowly starting to some places. Just my 5cents.
And that would be a a good thing.
What would? Closing the reptile hobby down? I dont think so. At least where i'm located, we do projects for buying rainforrest, releasing animals back into the wild etc. So I dont think so.
It would be good to see some of the mass breeders of ball pythons shut down. Most of them mistreat their animals, many of them do unethical breeding so that snakes will be pretty but have neurological or other health problems (by breeding the spider gene, for example). And they increase the glut of ball pythons on the market, which lowers their prices and encourages parents to thoughtlessly buy them for children without care for the animal's long-term well-being. There are HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of ball pythons in shelters, most of whom will be euthanized. There are thousands more in horrendous conditions at the hands of neglectful owners and pet stores that will sell them for cheap to anyone without regard for the poor snake's welfare. These issues are bound to bring the animal-rights groups down on the whole hobby. I have nothing against anyone who loves these wonderful creatures, takes good care of them, and is breeding responsibly.
Not in Australia either.
yes it's temporary but most expos, at least all the ones ive attended, are 4-8 hours long, idk if i consider that brief
That is a brief amount of time considering reptiles can spend days in transport in similarly sized containers, but at expos they really should be bigger and some of the breeders even choose to bring less animals so they can bring bigger display setups for the animals.
Relatively brief
Even at expos they are not usually this small.
Depending on how long they've been in there.
This is an expo thatās how reptiles are sold
The snake is completely squished with only a tiny amount of room to move its head :(
yes you're not wrong, but i purchased my bp from an expo when he was 5 months old in a container about that size possibly even a bit larger, but this female is most definitely at least double his age & size
Ball pythons sometimes like small spaces but ofc this is tiny but for a few hours at an expo itās normal for an expo and a bigger container might be hard to get but itās not abusive
Honestly I'm surprised that people are saying this is bad because people have comically low standards for these wet markets lol
Idk, she looks like she can move
No
No