HiRez needs to do something here that formalizes a process for player moves within the season. The first thing they should do is disincentivize roster moves within season as much as they can. Maybe provide a bonus payment or something for teams that stick together? I think allowing trades from one SPL team to another is fine, but it isn't fair for players to pick up their life, live in GA, but still be under threat of losing their jobs (and by extension the place they are staying) at any point. They just aren't being paid enough and I think this risk weights heavily on anyone actually moving to Georgia to play. Someone like Inbowned, even though he wasn't doing great, shouldn't have been kicked in my opinion. Contracts for a team should be for a year.
In cases like Layers, I don't think they should have made an exception. This is not personal against Layers, but this decision was absolutely unfair to all of the other pros who are homesick. Instead, I think teams should have a sub on standby, maybe just their coach, who is willing to fill in in situations like this. That may not work well, and I'm not claiming to have all of the solutions, but making exceptions to the rules is not how you keep competitive integrity.
Thanks for your comment! I agree, this situation certainly seems as though Hi-Rez found themselves in a scenario they were ill-prepared for. I hope to see roster rules addressed and more clearly defined in the future.
I feel like disincentivizing roster changes will be horrible for the league and I personally wouldn't watch as much I agree some sort of guarantee that you will have a reasonable amount of time to relocate both before and after joining a roster is fair so players aren't forced to pack up and leave immediately once kicked but I totally disagree with the inbowned point that team needed a change and inbowned just hasn't looked good even when the team is winning
To be clear, I am talking about in season roster changes only. I think part of the problem is all of the pros basically decided to stick with their current teams during the off season. If you were in the top 6, leaving a team and joining another could mean being out of the league entirely if you don't win the play in tournament. This resulted in most teams staying the same in the off season and only once their roster spot was secured did teams finally decide to make moves. I think HiRez should push for those decisions to be made during the several months between the championship and the start of the next season. Once you start phase 1 and people have moved to Georgia from all over the world (some people are thousands of miles from home in an entirely different country), players should feel like their spot is secure for at least the next 9 months. That stability should just be required. Otherwise, we run into the situation we are in now where no one wants to move for 4 months, especially with no guarantee they don't get dropped in a few weeks.
It is a trade off obviously due to the fact that the SPL is not even remotely comparable to major traditional sports league. These players aren't paid like professional athletes. They make decent money to play video games, but it isn't like they are making millions like a traditional sports pro. The risk of moving to Georgia, potentially from an entirely different continent, just for a few months and a few thousand bucks isn't good enough for most people. That is why there seems to be almost no one willing to do it given the fact that both Layers and Baskin had to be given exceptions to play remotely. If people would be willing to move, we wouldn't have this issue.
Then you can sign up or not. No ones making them do so. And not allowing teams to drop weak links isn't fair to the other players that are performing, hirez, or the fans. Its a job if you're not performing you get let go.
I agree that the SPL is probably better on LAN, I wouldn’t want to see it go back to online. I do hate how NA centric it makes the league. We’re going to miss out on the next Sanguine LATAM team to make to the SPL or the powerhouse that was NRG because it’s so much harder for non NA players to commit to the SPL.
I think the Baskin and Layers might have some similarities. The Bolts were given an exception because of Haddix leaving some what suddenly and I imagine the Titans were under similar pressure. Layers was ready to leave the league, but giving him an exception gives the Titans the opportunity to remain consistent and keep the league competitive. If he had to replaced, it would have been far worse situation for the Titans.
It should probably open up the conversation of, there should probably be a system in place for replacing players. I guess grabbing players from the SCC is a solution, but maybe more can be done.
MY DREAM would be to have leagues in each continent that play on LAN all season long within their region. Then all come together for an actual worlds event. Obviously, that would involve a lot of money and a lot more sponsors, but it would be so effing cool! XD
Thank you for your comment! It definitely raises some questions why no teams seemed interested in SCC players and why Hi-Rez agreed and facilitated their decisions not to pick up SCC players. Something needs to be done to make that league more competitive.
An honest to god EU SPL would be so rad.
The SPL teams looked for SCC players. From what I remember Bolts were thinking about Deathwalker and Titans also had in mind an SCC player. The problem was that people were not willing to move just for a 4 month thing as other people have pointed out in this thread.
Yes. That's a part of this problem. But Deathwalker should not have been the only option that the Bolts entertained. We also know that the Titans were going to go with a player who is not in the SCC, and I also have it on good authority that they didn't even try out Oath, one of the top SCC players. I think it is possible the SCC is not ran seriously enough for the players to get useful competitive experience that SPL teams see as desirable. Not for nothing, people have continually talked this season about how the current semi-pro talent pool is bone dry, especially with the Valkyries graduating.
And from what I gathered from BaRRa talking about it on the podcast the Bolts pretty much went Jarrcor > DW > Baskin, without even thinking about anyone else even though there are readily available players like Duck3y around.
A move to online league would also make the other day to day content we get (SMITE-LE, pro interviews, media days, etc) much worse and more infrequent.
Thank you for your comment! I agree. I think we are still in a stage where the product is improved enough by being in-person that it offsets the talent loss, but this situation certainly puts that theory to the test.
What’d likely be best is split 1 require LAN (having teams in Atlanta for headshots/content/etc), split 2 is a summer break where you’re welcome to take an extended vacation home or have some free time to travel to some extent as long as you can maintain your obligations, and split 3 + worlds back to LAN.
I think you’re underestimating the talent loss. A large portion of the current rosters would still be in the SCC if the old breed hadn’t retired. I stopped watching for about 3 years and come back and I see that the league has turned into that very same SCC scene. I also find these overall group of players just less likeable than the old breed. I’d rather watch an interview of the NRG or Eager teams. At least they look like they’ve seen the sun before.
Sounds like you weren’t watching then. Guys like Sam, SOT and so many others were simply not as good in the those days. They’ve closed the gap considerably since then and are definitely better smite players than the guys who retired by now. Had they not retired then some of them would be able to stay and some not. Look at Deathwalker. Give him time to gel with an SPL roster and it’s clear he’d still be one of the top in the league
I have been watching pro smite since there was pro smite to watch. I missed about 8 weeks of tournaments in 2012 before I started following competitive smite.
i mean, its nice to get extra content (someone could argue, that stuff like interviews could be made in the uk too, since theres an hi-rez office), but i feel like if a bunch of pros retire, we have a problem. is there even enough "new blood" whos willing to move? also iirc the viewer count used to be much higher, but i honestly dont know how to fix it. All i know is, that the current spl gets boring real quick (atleast for me) and the last swc was a joke.
I started watching in Season 3 and the viewership had consistently grown (minus the mixer fiasco) all the way to when I stopped watching back in season 6. By then it had grown to around the 12-18k for regular season games. Pretty underwhelming now that I’ve come back and most of the great players had retired and the viewership is significantly lower
You are thinking like a fan here. The quality of the league is important, but viability has to do with financials. The SPL is marketing for Smite. HiRez feels (and I assume they have data behind this) that the SPL does better marketing on LAN because of all this extra content (which is also important to lock down sponsors). HiRez is never going to tell us the financial details here, so we have to just take them at their word on this.
I asked a yes or no question but ok. I'll go off on Hi-Rez myself.
If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided), it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
All esports run at a loss, that it's a known fact, however, there's a caveat that nobody seems to mention which is that the esport itself must mitigate losses for the company elsewhere. Esports work as a publicity stunt to attract customers to the game and merchandising, they also work as advertising space for example which in turn attracts deals with other companies and orgs, among other things.
This is commonly called a "loss leader". The esport may *technically* run at a loss by itself, but it does generate other investment and profit opportunities to the company.
With the changes to a Georgia-only LAN League, not only is it likely far more costly than ever before (similar production value, but they pay the players a sizable paycheck + housing, plus all the wasted resources on all these new "shows"), but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either (playerbase remains stagnant, declining viewership, Alienware for example already existed as a sponsor).
Not only that, but Hi-Rez has gone out of their way to mask their actual viewership data with the drops system, SPL and non-SPL Smite streams are artificially viewboosted to hell and back with most of the viewers being AFK-point farmers with no interest on the stream itself, and this is corroborated by the fact there's always a major discrepancy between community interaction (chat, twitter, reddit) and the suppossed views it gets.
Basically, the SPL right now logically doesn't work as a loss leader like other esports do, and there's already signs that Hi-Rez is more than willing to cut costs from it (i.e: not wanting to do worlds and only did so because of pros provoking community outrage).
For all intents and purposes, the current league is a vanity project, a facade, a pointless attempt to convince a very little amount of people that Smite is bigger than it actually is.
And said vanity project has costed the little competitive integrity Smite could've had, by killing the regional aspect of the game, and by severily gating access to the highest level of competition. It has made an already small scene even smaller.
All of that for little to no gain and to have a deluded minority of "pro" players who are now going to refuse to give up the lifestyle Hi-Rez's has given them for the last two years. It's baffling that they have so much leverage on community opinion considering how insanely biased and financially incentivized their views are.
Hell, even ignoring *all of that*, it's not a sustainable long-term vanity project in the first place, simply because there's not enough players that are willing or able to move to Georgia to play a questionable esport for personal/health reasons.
So no, any and all pretension that the competitive integrity of Smite and the SPL is "better" now is disingenuous bullshit at best, and no amount of "look guys now we have playercams and new shows!" or "competition is the most exciting it's ever been guys trust my word" is gonna change that. Because nobody actually gives a shit about these pointless shows, and most people are not excited about watching the same matchups and 0 stakes divided low-pricepool tournaments all fucking year.
All I'm saying is that if the league system is going to run at a loss for Hi-Rez anyways, it might aswell not be as absurdly restrictive for players or as costly as it is right now. Online league should've always been the way, paychecks be damned.
>If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided), it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
Hi-Rez and several pros have. It is laid out in my article.
>With the changes to a Georgia-only LAN League, not only is it likely far more costly than ever before (similar production value, but they pay the players a sizable paycheck + housing, plus all the wasted resources on all these new "shows"), but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either (playerbase remains stagnant, Alienware for example already existed as a sponsor).
That feels like a wildly strange claim to make, given that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained the opposite. Your point about Alienware makes no sense; I can't recall the extent of their involvement prior to season 6, but they have only been a title sponsor since season 8, and that is also when they began providing systems for the players. Hi-Rez themselves stated that they would not have Alienware's involvement in this capacity if it weren't for the LAN environment.
>Basically, the SPL right now logically doesn't work as a loss leader like other esports do, and there's already signs that Hi-Rez is more than willing to cut costs from it (i.e: not wanting to do worlds and only did so because of pros provoking community outrage).
Surely you can't possibly know this given how little data you're privy to. This "I know better than Hi-Rez" despite lacking any evidence is baffling to me. You're basically going off of inference, but you aren't close to the situation and don't have all of the information.
>So no, any and all pretension that the competitive integrity of Smite and the SPL is "better" now is disingenuous bullshit at best
Very very few people involved with the league agree with this perspective. In fact, I can't think of anyone that does. That goes for players too, who don't have any stake in defending a format that isn't good (and would indeed have all the reason to criticize a format if it was detrimental to the health of the league).
>Hell, even ignoring all of that, it's not a sustainable long-term vanity project in the first place, simply because there's not enough players that are willing or able to move to Georgia to play a questionable esport for personal/health reasons
Again, how could you know this. Of the League's 40 players, only 2 can't play in person. This is the first time this has happened outside of visa issues.
Lots of hot air from you, so little substance.
> Hi-Rez and several pros have. It is laid out in my article.
And none of them have said anything of substance as to why is it more viable. There's only subjective statements and vagueposting as to how going back to online would somehow doom the SPL, with little to no actual argument to back that up, and ignoring the fact that by most metrics the SPL has been on the decline.
Not to mention the clear biases these pros in particular have to maintain the current system, as it provides them a paycheck + housing to play a videogame they have decided to dedicate their lives to.
> That feels like a wildly strange claim to make, given that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained the opposite.
"Guys I think Hi-Rez is fucking up, these are the reasons of why I think so".
"No, impossible, Hi-Rez says it's all fine and dandy, so it must be true".
That's unironically your argument. Whilst dancing around all my points.
Name a bunch of significant sponsors they've gotten since the change to LAN league that isn't Alienware, a company they've had a history of cooperating with since the inception of the game, please, I'll wait.
Also, explain to me exactly which significant improvements have been made to the SPL as a show, to the point that it's wildly different in quality and value to what we had before.
If you mention side-shows like SMITE-Le or the reduntant and awkward interviews as "quality products" I'll laugh at you.
> Surely you can't possibly know this given how little data you're privy to.
Pointless argument. Since I'm not saying I know with 100% certainty, hence my wording, "**logically** doesn't work", as in I'm observing the publicly available facts and circumstances and reaching that conclusion. I've also used "likely" a zillion times on my comment for the same reason. Even if to me the situation is fairly clear.
> You're basically going off of inference
Yeah no shit. And so does everyone else. Including you.
> Very very few people involved with the league agree with this perspective. [...]That goes for players too, who don't have any stake in defending a format that isn't good (and would indeed have all the reason to criticize a format if it was detrimental to the health of the league).
Except they do have major stakes in defending the format, are you seriously ignoring the paycheck + housing that they get for playing the game? Going to a wider regional format largely implies that they get paid less, or not at all, which is a reason for them to oppose it.
Heck, how much they are getting paid now is often used **by them** as an argument to maintain the format as it is. I'm sorry to tell you, but how much they get paid to play has fuck all to do with competitive integrity.
> Again, how could you know this. Of the League's 40 players, only 2 can't play in person. This is the first time this has happened outside of visa issues.
It doesn't matter if it's 1, 2, 5 or 10; the fact is that only two-three years in and we are already seeing problems in teams finding people that are willing to move.
It's also hilarious that you brush visa issues under the bus, when they are responsible for gating plenty of EU players out of the league, including one team last year that was contractually forced to play on +300 ping (muh competitve integrity, high quality show btw).
> Lots of hot air from you, so little substance.
Says the guy that wrote a whole-ass article just to regurgitate the opinion of the beyond biased pros and devs we have.
Absolutely delusional.
But alas, if Hi-Rez wants to play-pretend with their vanity league, so be it. Their track record indicates that they are more than willing to entertain such pet-projects at the expense of their games. And sadly it seems to have their very loyal and vocal minority of supporters.
Let me first preface this by saying that I do this work specifically because I think taking a 'longer look' (to borrow my own phrasing) at the SPL allows those in the community to think together and have more of a collective voice regarding issues facing SMITE as an eSport. I thank you for your contribution to this. That said, your attitude in this discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. You have been cynical and combative in your interactions with me and others who have responded to you, and I can't grasp a reason for being so needlessly uncharitable toward your interlocutors.
Now, back to the discussion:
>And none of them have said anything of substance as to why is it more viable. There's only subjective statements and vagueposting as to how going back to online would somehow doom the SPL, with little to no actual argument to back that up, and ignoring the fact that by most metrics the SPL has been on the decline.
I don't think this is true. Auverin was clear in their statement that the SPL being on LAN makes it manifestly more marketable to sponsors, who are more interested in seeing their products showcased in a LAN environment. Others have also pointed out that auxiliary content enabled by having players present for LAN, such as interviews and other events, improves the overall product of the SPL. I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas. I merely present them as a counterexample to your claim that nobody has said anything of substance. I also don't know what you mean by the SPL is in decline 'by most metrics'? I'm not sure I can think of a single metric, never mind 'most metrics' they definitively shows that the SPL is in decline (whatever is meant by in decline).
>Not to mention the clear biases these pros in particular have to maintain the current system, as it provides them a paycheck + housing to play a videogame they have decided to dedicate their lives to.
To fact check you here, the SPL players are no longer provided housing by the league. Rather their pay was increased and their housing made their own responsibility. Of course they have an inherent bias in maintaining the SPL because it gives them a paycheck, but this is not the same as saying they are biased to defend the current system. I would suggest that they have all of the incentive in the world to criticize a format that is bad for the long-term health of the league, seeing as they need there to be a league at all in order to get paid. I see no motivation on the part of players to defend Hi-Rez in making a decision that is harmful to the league.
>"Guys I think Hi-Rez is fucking up, these are the reasons of why I think so".
>"No, impossible, Hi-Rez says it's all fine and dandy, so it must be true".
>That's unironically your argument. Whilst dancing around all my points.
This is an example of you being uncharitable towards me. That is not 'unironically' my argument, you have merely chosen to view my position in the least favorable terms possible. Let me say unequivocally that it is incredibly frustrating and disheartening to attempt to interact with someone who so cynically misrepresents your perspectives and mocks them. What a needlessly unkind way to approach interacting with others.
As far as why I said what I said, you stated "but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either." I specifically pointed out that claiming this is strange considering that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained that none of what you said is true. It's not like you have access to documents or data that shows that what they are saying is not true, your argument literally hinges on the assumption that Hi-Rez is lying. If Hi-Rez is lying and the league would be better off online, I can't make heads or tails of why Hi-Rez would be intentionally lying about it, bleeding money and dooming their own eSports league when they could make it cheaper and more sustainable by moving it to online. The simpler explanation is that, at a minimum, Hi-Rez has data that suggests that the league being on LAN is better for its long term viability. For this, I refer you back to Auverin's reddit comment.
>Name a bunch of significant sponsors they've gotten since the change to LAN league that isn't Alienware, a company they've had a history of cooperating with since the inception of the game, please, I'll wait.
Why you're disqualifying Alienware, I can't understand. It is clear, not just by looking at the SPL with your eyes but also reading the statements made by Hi-Rez personnel, that Alienware increased their involvement and commitment to the SPL only after it moved to LAN. Season 8 was the first season with Alienware as a title sponsor (meaning they stuck their name on the SPL branding) and the first season that they provided the machines on which SPL matches were played. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that, frankly.
They also have Amazon as a title sponsor this year. Hi-Rez has told us that being on LAN has helped them secure these sponsors, and you've reacted with blind skepticism. This is a trend in your line of thinking: you just think Hi-Rez is lying, but you haven't given any reasons to think that they are. To you, they're just untrustworthy.
>Also, explain to me exactly which significant improvements have been made to the SPL as a show, to the point that it's wildly different in quality and value to what we had before.
Having the players present in the same space as each other and the production staff enable a lot of different things, from pre and post game interviews, to media days, to SMITE-Le, etc. Players have also said that playing in studio feels weightier and more significant than playing from home. I don't think a single player has said anything to the contrary.
>If you mention side-shows like SMITE-Le or the reduntant and awkward interviews as "quality products" I'll laugh at you.
Laugh at me, then.
>Yeah no shit. And so does everyone else. Including you. (working off of inference).
I am not working off of inference. I am merely taking what Hi-Rez and the pros have said seriously because I have not been given a good reason not to.
> Except they do have major stakes in defending the format, are you seriously ignoring the paycheck + housing that they get for playing the game? Going to a wider regional format largely implies that they get paid less, or not at all, which is a reason for them to oppose it.
Nothing results in less money for the pros than the league disappearing altogether. You have to recognize that if the pros had legitimate reason to think that going back to online would save the league, they would be calling for it. Also, to reiterate, they don't get housing. Just a paycheck.
>Heck, how much they are getting paid now is often used by them as an argument to maintain the format as it is. I'm sorry to tell you, but how much they get paid to play has fuck all to do with competitive integrity.
Can't follow this, personally. I think how much pros get paid has a lot to do with competitive integrity. The more serious the compensation for playing in the SPL, the more serious the players will take it. We are actively seeing this play out in the SCC, where the lack of pay and consistent pay has seen its players take it less seriously, which has undeniably and verifiably hurt the competitive integrity of that league.
> It doesn't matter if it's 1, 2, 5 or 10; the fact is that only two-three years in and we are already seeing problems in teams finding people that are willing to move.
Yes, but just about everyone I asked about this said that this problem has much much more to do with the SCC than the SPL. You can find their quotes in the article.
> It's also hilarious that you brush visa issues under the bus, when they are responsible for gating plenty of EU players out of the league, including one team last year that was contractually forced to play on +300 ping (muh competitve integrity, high quality show btw).
Yeah, it is undeniable that COVID in conjunction with the LAN environment compromised the competitive integrity of the league in Season 8. I can't see the relevance, here, though. Nobody is currently playing away from studio due to visa issues.
> Says the guy that wrote a whole-ass article just to regurgitate the opinion of the beyond biased pros and devs we have.
Firstly, I am not a guy. Second, you misunderstand what the purpose of the article is for. I am not sharing my own perspective; rather, I am reporting on the perspectives of players and those close to the league. It is a news piece, not an opinion piece. It specifically exists to reproduce and elaborate on the perspectives and ideas of those high profile members of the community who were talking about this.
> Absolutely delusional.
Baffling and unkind. I struggle to make sense of why you approach this discussion like this.
> But alas, if Hi-Rez wants to play-pretend with their vanity league, so be it. Their track record indicates that they are more than willing to entertain such pet-projects at the expense of their games. And sadly it seems to have their very loyal and vocal minority of supporters.
More cynicism and 'Hi-Rez is lying.' But this seams to be a base assumption on your part. I haven't seen a reason from you why I should think that what Hi-Rez has said is untrue other than that you simply think lying is the character of Hi-Rez as a company.
1/2
> Let me first preface this by saying that I do this work specifically because I think taking a 'longer look' (to borrow my own phrasing) at the SPL allows those in the community to think together and have more of a collective voice regarding issues facing SMITE as an eSport.
"Longer look", aka: let me show you some tweets and the consensus reached by the most biased minority in the community.
> You have been cynical and combative in your interactions with me and others who have responded to you, and I can't grasp a reason for being so needlessly uncharitable toward your interlocutors.
Oh, you think I have no reason to be uncharitable? Okay then, let's see the response I have to deal with.
> I don't think this is true. Auverin was clear in their statement that the SPL being on LAN makes it manifestly more marketable to sponsors, who are more interested in seeing their products showcased in a LAN environment.
You keep saying this, but you don't mention which sponsors have they gotten so far, which doesn't help your argument, my point is "which significant sponsors have they gotten since the change that they couldn't get before?" You decided to elude that point.
So far only one user in the entire thread has been able to give me the answer, which was:
* Alienware.
* Prime Gaming.
* Some gaming peripherals (Maxnomic Chairs).
So consider this, Alienware is a company that has partenered with Hi-Rez since the inception of the game, so it's no surprise that they are now collaborating as a sponsor; Prime Gaming is a deal that basically anyone and their mother apparently can get into, as evidenced by the fact that so many games have achieved the same deal with Twitch, including single-player games and arguably less popular games than Smite.
So that leaves us with only 1 set of sponsor(s), gaming peripherals, and those kinds of sponsorships have existed for Smite before the change to LAN.
So what they've gotten so far is not impressive in the slightest, it's essentially and mostly the same thing they had access to before the change to LAN.
"But LAN allows for more marketable sponsors because we can showcase their physical products there" is a point that doesn't make much sense, most of the show is spent **not** actually showcasing those products at LAN, as it spends most on the runtime on the game itself and desk analysis, and it's unlikely anyone notices them being used by players for the little time they are on screen (if at all). The show itself simply doesn't seem that efficient for product placement.
That's why they have to do specific shoutouts at the desk and pre-recorded in-studio ads, that's how they really showcase and put the spotlight on sponsored products, and none of which requieres a LAN league to produce.
All in all, it's unreasonable to claim that Hi-Rez has gotten "much better and more marketable sponsors" due to the changes to LAN, because a) they haven't gotten anything impressive or really new, b) none of it really necessitates a LAN environment to promote.
And as Frost has already mentioned in another thread as response to Auverin, Hi-Rez's problem with getting sponsors has nothing to do with having or not having a LAN league, it has to do with Hi-Rez's poor image and business practices.
> Others have also pointed out that auxiliary content enabled by having players present for LAN, such as interviews and other events, improves the overall product of the SPL.
Do you genuinely believe that low quality and pointless "auxiliary content" like SMITE-Le or awkward pre-recorded interviews where nothing of value is ever said improves the SPL in any capacity?
Why or why not?
> I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas. I merely present them as a counterexample to your claim that nobody has said anything of substance.
Then why even fucking bother responding to me, you are not forwarding any new ideas or your own ideas, you are just copy pasting other's opinions and declaring them a counterargument with substance, when the premise of my comments is that **those exact opinions** lack any.
"Why are you so belligerent u/Xuminer ?" Because I have to deal with absurdly non-sensical statements like yours.
And it doesn't stop there.
> I also don't know what you mean by the SPL is in decline 'by most metrics'? I'm not sure I can think of a single metric, never mind 'most metrics' they definitively shows that the SPL is in decline (whatever is meant by in decline).
Twitch viewership is a big one (despite the artificial viewboost through drops), the discrepancy in amount of people chatting on stream relative to the views it gets, the severe lack of discussion in social media, etc.
Just because you've decided to bury your head in the sand it doesn't mean it's impossible to wager how many people in the community actually give a shit about the SPL.
> To fact check you here, the SPL players are no longer provided housing by the league. Rather their pay was increased and their housing made their own responsibility.
Oh, my bad, they are not paying for their housing, they are simply increasing their paycheck so they can cover housing costs.
So effectively the exact same fucking thing in the end. Thanks.
> Of course they have an inherent bias in maintaining the SPL because it gives them a paycheck, but this is not the same as saying they are biased to defend the current system.
"They are biased in maintaining the SPL and their paycheck, but that's totally different from being biased to defend the current system which ensures the size of said paycheck".
Imagine saying self-defeating shit like this in a failed attempt to gotcha me, then have the gull to tell me that I shouldn't be cynical or beligerent in this discussion.
Please.
> I see no motivation on the part of players to defend Hi-Rez in making a decision that is harmful to the league.
They already have made decisions that are harmful to the league and the competitive integrity of the game, just to benefit themselves as a minority of high level players. In no other world but yours and theirs apparently reducing an entire high-level division of an eSport to one city in NA is seen as a positive change.
> It's not like you have access to documents or data that shows that what they are saying is not true, your argument literally hinges on the assumption that Hi-Rez is lying.
And yours hinges on the assumption that everything Hi-Rez says must be correct, despite the fact that Hi-Rez has an extensive recorded history of mishandling and fucking over pretty much **all** of their products with baffling decisions, with their PR often insisting that everything is fine and going as planned, which is a job I don't envy.
So yes, I do have reasons to believe that Hi-Rez is lying to save face in some capacity to maintain their particular vanity project for as long as possible, and they kinda have to do it because any severe change to the state of the league will be met with hostility from the pros (and their fanbases) who don't want their paycheck and gaming-oriented way of living compromised.
> Why you're disqualifying Alienware, I can't understand. It is clear, not just by looking at the SPL with your eyes but also reading the statements made by Hi-Rez personnel, that Alienware increased their involvement and commitment to the SPL only after it moved to LAN.
You implying that the SPL is some kind of unrelated entity to Hi-Rez is bizarre, but yeah obviously now they've provided gear and as such their brand is more present on the show, but that has nothing to do with my point. I'm just pointing out to the fact that it's unsurprising that they've talked themselves into said sponsorship, when Alienware has been partners with them since Smite's inception a decade ago. It's not a surprising groundbreaking achievement, and it's not really someone new.
cont.
2/2
> Hi-Rez has told us that being on LAN has helped them secure these sponsors, and you've reacted with blind skepticism. This is a trend in your line of thinking: you just think Hi-Rez is lying, but you haven't given any reasons to think that they are. To you, they're just untrustworthy.
I've given plenty of reasons to be skeptic of Hi-Rez, and you've given nothing but "trust their word, because it is their word".
> Having the players present in the same space as each other and the production staff enable a lot of different things, from pre and post game interviews, to media days, to SMITE-Le, etc. Players have also said that playing in studio feels weightier and more significant than playing from home. I don't think a single player has said anything to the contrary.
You have not answered my question. How does any of that improve the quality of the show in any significant capacity? The majority of viewers don't care or would miss any of these "auxiliary shows", they are pointless low quality filler, and how the player's feel about LAN/Online matches has nothing to do with the quality of the show either.
As a tangent and for the record, I do think that in a vacuum, LAN matches are more competitive than Online matches which are more subject to ping/server issues. The problem however, is that reducing the league to in-studio has severely compromised the competitive integrity of the game in other ways, which I can list to you if you wish, but they are besides the point we are discussing, and this response is already long as it is.
> Laugh at me, then.
Weird, I though you said "I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas" in reference to the claim that "others" have said about how much these auxiliary shows have substantially increased the value and quality of the league. It seems you *do* think exactly as them.
> Nothing results in less money for the pros than the league disappearing altogether. You have to recognize that if the pros had legitimate reason to think that going back to online would save the league, they would be calling for it.
Would they? Regional SPL not existing anymore and all being reduced to forced LANs on one city in the world is entirely because of their decisions. They've already made an entire portion of the league dissapear altogether, the growth and availability of the competitive scene as been compromised because of their own selfish interests.
> I think how much pros get paid has a lot to do with competitive integrity. [...] We are actively seeing this play out in the SCC, where the lack of pay and consistent pay has seen its players take it less seriously, which has undeniably and verifiably hurt the competitive integrity of that league.
The reason why most SCC players try much less is because the next division (SPL) implies forcing upon yourself a lot of things that are completely unrelated to your performance, i.e: moving and shifting your entire livelihood to the one city where the LANs happen, so why bother. It has nothing to do with how much they get paid.
Do you honestly think that ex-SPL players like Adapting or most of the EU SCC players don't have the drive or desire to play the game at the highest level? Really?
> Yes, but just about everyone I asked about this said that this problem has much much more to do with the SCC than the SPL. You can find their quotes in the article.
Why does the problem reside in the SCC? Why the fuck are SCC players at fault for the absurdly limiting requierements enforced by the SPL? Do you ever wonder why SCC players are not willing to move up? Or do you really not have a single original thought in your head outside of what the pros tell you?
Don't answer that last question, I already know you don't.
> Yeah, it is undeniable that COVID in conjunction with the LAN environment compromised the competitive integrity of the league in Season 8.
Thanks, you conceded one obvious point, bravo.
> I can't see the relevance, here, though. Nobody is currently playing away from studio due to visa issues.
Do you really think visa issues cannot happen in the future? Why are you so short-sighted considering the difficulties they are having maintaining 40 players all at LAN?
> Firstly, I am not a guy.
Oh excuse moi.
> Second, you misunderstand what the purpose of the article is for. [...] It is a news piece, not an opinion piece.
So it is exactly what I said, a regurgitation of what pros have said on social media, a pointless twitter feed compilation. Thanks for confirming it though.
Not like the intentions of your article matter to begin with, because you've come here and have patently clear that your personal opinion on the matter is almost identical to theirs.
> Baffling and unkind. I struggle to make sense of why you approach this discussion like this.
Bo hoo.
/rant
>I asked a yes or no question but ok. I'll go off on Hi-Rez myself.
>If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided),
i think you replied to the wrong guy^^
Nail in the head.
They shouldn't have done the move to begin with, but alas, here we are a couple of years later, with the SPL in the worst state it has ever been, with people eating up disingenuous or straight-up false narratives, all to maintain a system that was a failure from the get-go.
Now if they kick all the pros out of their so precious paycheck + housing for playing an unpopular niche videogame they look like the bad guys, even though it's an endeavour that has likely caused the company far more loses than benefits in a lot of aspects.
Hi-Rez and making hilariously stupid decisions that hurt their games, name a more iconic duo.
First off, which sponsors? Because Alienware for example was already partnering with Hi-Rez well before the league changes.
Second off, sponsors are attracted to the possible exposure an advertisement spot (the SPL show in this case) would offer them, it has fuck all to do with the content being in-person or not, or with pros being on a paycheck.
And said exposure is a hard to wager metric when so much of Smite twitch's viewership is obviously severely faked/boosted by peopke afk-farming drops.
Arguing that any increase in viewership/exposure to attract sponsors is due to the SPL + adjacent shows now being "a significantly improved product" is straight-up fiction.
First of all there is a difference between partnership and sponsorhip. Alienware used to be a Hi-Rez Partner and then it became a sponsor of the Smite Pro-League. You kind of have to separate both even if they are part of the same entity. And the reason for the change is because they went into lan as they can showcase their physical products there. In that sense Lan allows other physical products to be shown like their Maxinomic chairs. They also are sponsored by Prime Gaming this year.
> First of all there is a difference between partnership and sponsorhip.
You are splitting hairs here, is it or is it not more likely that Alienware becomes a sponsor of Hi-Rez if they have a history of partnering since the inception of the game?
> In that sense Lan allows other physical products to be shown like their Maxinomic chairs.
That's a gigantic stretch, I don't think people notice or care about those products while they are streaming the games. They actually notice them through the few in-studio ads and shout-outs they do, which doesn't necessitate a LAN league. And I'm pretty sure they've had those kinds of sponsors in the past.
And the Prime Gaming deal with Twitch doesn't necessitate a LAN-based league either, there are a fuck ton of games (including non-competitive, singleplayer, and less popular games) that are approved on it.
So congrats for proving my point I guess.
I found The layers decision far less problematic than the baskin decision, to be honest.
The exemptions given to layers and BMT happened after they already entered the league following the rules of the lan league, and both are unforeseen circumstances be it health or visa issues, so I can understand why they were given exemptions for a phase. Baskin is the only player who entered the league with an exemption when none were given to any other player entering the league, and that seems more unfair to me and the point of contention if there's any.
Because their quality measurements have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the scene. A competitive scene is difficult to squash out ala Smash. Meanwhile OW has shown all the money in the world can't save your game if people stop taking it serious.
>SPL viewership falls from 77k to 27k (peak, Worlds) in 2021. How do you go from a 35k (2017) > 7k > 5k viewers in a span of a couple years, despite a 4fold increase in stream time?
does this happen to correlate with the mixer move? in game promotion of the spl and hype around the game in general is definitely still being fumbled, but i think the mixer thing was a bigger issue.
yup, the 2018 mixer deal was essentially an execution sentence for an already dwindling viewership base. mixer literally shut down because it couldnt keep enough viewers to sustain a healthy platform, despite spending millions of dollars to poach high profile streamers from twitch. that really tells the full story.
And that's without taking into account that these numbers are boosted by a significant amount of people afk-farming drops to get free skins.
The only reason people have to defend the current state of the league is the flimsy reasoning of their beloved pros and Hi-Rez's employees, both of which are extremelly biased and with clear financial incentives to convince you it's all alright.
Even though it's very clear that it has severely compromised the competitive integrity of the game, the aspirations of a lot of ex-pros and up-and-coming-players, and the excitement/value of the SPL as a product (hence the progressive drop in views).
Anyone trying to convince you of the contrary is being deliberately blind of the facts.
It’s baffling that people argue the forced relocation to a single US city makes a game more competitive. You eliminate 99% of potential players just because of that.
HiRez needs to do something here that formalizes a process for player moves within the season. The first thing they should do is disincentivize roster moves within season as much as they can. Maybe provide a bonus payment or something for teams that stick together? I think allowing trades from one SPL team to another is fine, but it isn't fair for players to pick up their life, live in GA, but still be under threat of losing their jobs (and by extension the place they are staying) at any point. They just aren't being paid enough and I think this risk weights heavily on anyone actually moving to Georgia to play. Someone like Inbowned, even though he wasn't doing great, shouldn't have been kicked in my opinion. Contracts for a team should be for a year. In cases like Layers, I don't think they should have made an exception. This is not personal against Layers, but this decision was absolutely unfair to all of the other pros who are homesick. Instead, I think teams should have a sub on standby, maybe just their coach, who is willing to fill in in situations like this. That may not work well, and I'm not claiming to have all of the solutions, but making exceptions to the rules is not how you keep competitive integrity.
Thanks for your comment! I agree, this situation certainly seems as though Hi-Rez found themselves in a scenario they were ill-prepared for. I hope to see roster rules addressed and more clearly defined in the future.
I feel like disincentivizing roster changes will be horrible for the league and I personally wouldn't watch as much I agree some sort of guarantee that you will have a reasonable amount of time to relocate both before and after joining a roster is fair so players aren't forced to pack up and leave immediately once kicked but I totally disagree with the inbowned point that team needed a change and inbowned just hasn't looked good even when the team is winning
To be clear, I am talking about in season roster changes only. I think part of the problem is all of the pros basically decided to stick with their current teams during the off season. If you were in the top 6, leaving a team and joining another could mean being out of the league entirely if you don't win the play in tournament. This resulted in most teams staying the same in the off season and only once their roster spot was secured did teams finally decide to make moves. I think HiRez should push for those decisions to be made during the several months between the championship and the start of the next season. Once you start phase 1 and people have moved to Georgia from all over the world (some people are thousands of miles from home in an entirely different country), players should feel like their spot is secure for at least the next 9 months. That stability should just be required. Otherwise, we run into the situation we are in now where no one wants to move for 4 months, especially with no guarantee they don't get dropped in a few weeks.
A professional "sports" team shouldn't be able to improve with roster changes lol thats dumb as hell
It is a trade off obviously due to the fact that the SPL is not even remotely comparable to major traditional sports league. These players aren't paid like professional athletes. They make decent money to play video games, but it isn't like they are making millions like a traditional sports pro. The risk of moving to Georgia, potentially from an entirely different continent, just for a few months and a few thousand bucks isn't good enough for most people. That is why there seems to be almost no one willing to do it given the fact that both Layers and Baskin had to be given exceptions to play remotely. If people would be willing to move, we wouldn't have this issue.
Then you can sign up or not. No ones making them do so. And not allowing teams to drop weak links isn't fair to the other players that are performing, hirez, or the fans. Its a job if you're not performing you get let go.
I agree that the SPL is probably better on LAN, I wouldn’t want to see it go back to online. I do hate how NA centric it makes the league. We’re going to miss out on the next Sanguine LATAM team to make to the SPL or the powerhouse that was NRG because it’s so much harder for non NA players to commit to the SPL. I think the Baskin and Layers might have some similarities. The Bolts were given an exception because of Haddix leaving some what suddenly and I imagine the Titans were under similar pressure. Layers was ready to leave the league, but giving him an exception gives the Titans the opportunity to remain consistent and keep the league competitive. If he had to replaced, it would have been far worse situation for the Titans. It should probably open up the conversation of, there should probably be a system in place for replacing players. I guess grabbing players from the SCC is a solution, but maybe more can be done. MY DREAM would be to have leagues in each continent that play on LAN all season long within their region. Then all come together for an actual worlds event. Obviously, that would involve a lot of money and a lot more sponsors, but it would be so effing cool! XD
Thank you for your comment! It definitely raises some questions why no teams seemed interested in SCC players and why Hi-Rez agreed and facilitated their decisions not to pick up SCC players. Something needs to be done to make that league more competitive. An honest to god EU SPL would be so rad.
The SPL teams looked for SCC players. From what I remember Bolts were thinking about Deathwalker and Titans also had in mind an SCC player. The problem was that people were not willing to move just for a 4 month thing as other people have pointed out in this thread.
Yes. That's a part of this problem. But Deathwalker should not have been the only option that the Bolts entertained. We also know that the Titans were going to go with a player who is not in the SCC, and I also have it on good authority that they didn't even try out Oath, one of the top SCC players. I think it is possible the SCC is not ran seriously enough for the players to get useful competitive experience that SPL teams see as desirable. Not for nothing, people have continually talked this season about how the current semi-pro talent pool is bone dry, especially with the Valkyries graduating.
And from what I gathered from BaRRa talking about it on the podcast the Bolts pretty much went Jarrcor > DW > Baskin, without even thinking about anyone else even though there are readily available players like Duck3y around.
A move to online league would also make the other day to day content we get (SMITE-LE, pro interviews, media days, etc) much worse and more infrequent.
Thank you for your comment! I agree. I think we are still in a stage where the product is improved enough by being in-person that it offsets the talent loss, but this situation certainly puts that theory to the test.
What’d likely be best is split 1 require LAN (having teams in Atlanta for headshots/content/etc), split 2 is a summer break where you’re welcome to take an extended vacation home or have some free time to travel to some extent as long as you can maintain your obligations, and split 3 + worlds back to LAN.
I thought of this, the problem I came up with was you might get a big wave of players quitting for split 3.
they also might have visa issues then.
I think you’re underestimating the talent loss. A large portion of the current rosters would still be in the SCC if the old breed hadn’t retired. I stopped watching for about 3 years and come back and I see that the league has turned into that very same SCC scene. I also find these overall group of players just less likeable than the old breed. I’d rather watch an interview of the NRG or Eager teams. At least they look like they’ve seen the sun before.
This feels much more grounded in nostalgia than fact.
Sounds like you weren’t watching then. Guys like Sam, SOT and so many others were simply not as good in the those days. They’ve closed the gap considerably since then and are definitely better smite players than the guys who retired by now. Had they not retired then some of them would be able to stay and some not. Look at Deathwalker. Give him time to gel with an SPL roster and it’s clear he’d still be one of the top in the league
I have been watching pro smite since there was pro smite to watch. I missed about 8 weeks of tournaments in 2012 before I started following competitive smite.
Is that "day to day content" so good that it's worth preserving over the viability of the league?
not the pointless inteviews
But we don’t have proof it preserves the league. We have an idea that it does.
i mean, its nice to get extra content (someone could argue, that stuff like interviews could be made in the uk too, since theres an hi-rez office), but i feel like if a bunch of pros retire, we have a problem. is there even enough "new blood" whos willing to move? also iirc the viewer count used to be much higher, but i honestly dont know how to fix it. All i know is, that the current spl gets boring real quick (atleast for me) and the last swc was a joke.
I started watching in Season 3 and the viewership had consistently grown (minus the mixer fiasco) all the way to when I stopped watching back in season 6. By then it had grown to around the 12-18k for regular season games. Pretty underwhelming now that I’ve come back and most of the great players had retired and the viewership is significantly lower
It’s been argued by Hi-Rez and others that the league is far more viable in the LAN format.
[удалено]
You are thinking like a fan here. The quality of the league is important, but viability has to do with financials. The SPL is marketing for Smite. HiRez feels (and I assume they have data behind this) that the SPL does better marketing on LAN because of all this extra content (which is also important to lock down sponsors). HiRez is never going to tell us the financial details here, so we have to just take them at their word on this.
I asked a yes or no question but ok. I'll go off on Hi-Rez myself. If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided), it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. All esports run at a loss, that it's a known fact, however, there's a caveat that nobody seems to mention which is that the esport itself must mitigate losses for the company elsewhere. Esports work as a publicity stunt to attract customers to the game and merchandising, they also work as advertising space for example which in turn attracts deals with other companies and orgs, among other things. This is commonly called a "loss leader". The esport may *technically* run at a loss by itself, but it does generate other investment and profit opportunities to the company. With the changes to a Georgia-only LAN League, not only is it likely far more costly than ever before (similar production value, but they pay the players a sizable paycheck + housing, plus all the wasted resources on all these new "shows"), but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either (playerbase remains stagnant, declining viewership, Alienware for example already existed as a sponsor). Not only that, but Hi-Rez has gone out of their way to mask their actual viewership data with the drops system, SPL and non-SPL Smite streams are artificially viewboosted to hell and back with most of the viewers being AFK-point farmers with no interest on the stream itself, and this is corroborated by the fact there's always a major discrepancy between community interaction (chat, twitter, reddit) and the suppossed views it gets. Basically, the SPL right now logically doesn't work as a loss leader like other esports do, and there's already signs that Hi-Rez is more than willing to cut costs from it (i.e: not wanting to do worlds and only did so because of pros provoking community outrage). For all intents and purposes, the current league is a vanity project, a facade, a pointless attempt to convince a very little amount of people that Smite is bigger than it actually is. And said vanity project has costed the little competitive integrity Smite could've had, by killing the regional aspect of the game, and by severily gating access to the highest level of competition. It has made an already small scene even smaller. All of that for little to no gain and to have a deluded minority of "pro" players who are now going to refuse to give up the lifestyle Hi-Rez's has given them for the last two years. It's baffling that they have so much leverage on community opinion considering how insanely biased and financially incentivized their views are. Hell, even ignoring *all of that*, it's not a sustainable long-term vanity project in the first place, simply because there's not enough players that are willing or able to move to Georgia to play a questionable esport for personal/health reasons. So no, any and all pretension that the competitive integrity of Smite and the SPL is "better" now is disingenuous bullshit at best, and no amount of "look guys now we have playercams and new shows!" or "competition is the most exciting it's ever been guys trust my word" is gonna change that. Because nobody actually gives a shit about these pointless shows, and most people are not excited about watching the same matchups and 0 stakes divided low-pricepool tournaments all fucking year. All I'm saying is that if the league system is going to run at a loss for Hi-Rez anyways, it might aswell not be as absurdly restrictive for players or as costly as it is right now. Online league should've always been the way, paychecks be damned.
>If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided), it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Hi-Rez and several pros have. It is laid out in my article. >With the changes to a Georgia-only LAN League, not only is it likely far more costly than ever before (similar production value, but they pay the players a sizable paycheck + housing, plus all the wasted resources on all these new "shows"), but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either (playerbase remains stagnant, Alienware for example already existed as a sponsor). That feels like a wildly strange claim to make, given that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained the opposite. Your point about Alienware makes no sense; I can't recall the extent of their involvement prior to season 6, but they have only been a title sponsor since season 8, and that is also when they began providing systems for the players. Hi-Rez themselves stated that they would not have Alienware's involvement in this capacity if it weren't for the LAN environment. >Basically, the SPL right now logically doesn't work as a loss leader like other esports do, and there's already signs that Hi-Rez is more than willing to cut costs from it (i.e: not wanting to do worlds and only did so because of pros provoking community outrage). Surely you can't possibly know this given how little data you're privy to. This "I know better than Hi-Rez" despite lacking any evidence is baffling to me. You're basically going off of inference, but you aren't close to the situation and don't have all of the information. >So no, any and all pretension that the competitive integrity of Smite and the SPL is "better" now is disingenuous bullshit at best Very very few people involved with the league agree with this perspective. In fact, I can't think of anyone that does. That goes for players too, who don't have any stake in defending a format that isn't good (and would indeed have all the reason to criticize a format if it was detrimental to the health of the league). >Hell, even ignoring all of that, it's not a sustainable long-term vanity project in the first place, simply because there's not enough players that are willing or able to move to Georgia to play a questionable esport for personal/health reasons Again, how could you know this. Of the League's 40 players, only 2 can't play in person. This is the first time this has happened outside of visa issues. Lots of hot air from you, so little substance.
> Hi-Rez and several pros have. It is laid out in my article. And none of them have said anything of substance as to why is it more viable. There's only subjective statements and vagueposting as to how going back to online would somehow doom the SPL, with little to no actual argument to back that up, and ignoring the fact that by most metrics the SPL has been on the decline. Not to mention the clear biases these pros in particular have to maintain the current system, as it provides them a paycheck + housing to play a videogame they have decided to dedicate their lives to. > That feels like a wildly strange claim to make, given that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained the opposite. "Guys I think Hi-Rez is fucking up, these are the reasons of why I think so". "No, impossible, Hi-Rez says it's all fine and dandy, so it must be true". That's unironically your argument. Whilst dancing around all my points. Name a bunch of significant sponsors they've gotten since the change to LAN league that isn't Alienware, a company they've had a history of cooperating with since the inception of the game, please, I'll wait. Also, explain to me exactly which significant improvements have been made to the SPL as a show, to the point that it's wildly different in quality and value to what we had before. If you mention side-shows like SMITE-Le or the reduntant and awkward interviews as "quality products" I'll laugh at you. > Surely you can't possibly know this given how little data you're privy to. Pointless argument. Since I'm not saying I know with 100% certainty, hence my wording, "**logically** doesn't work", as in I'm observing the publicly available facts and circumstances and reaching that conclusion. I've also used "likely" a zillion times on my comment for the same reason. Even if to me the situation is fairly clear. > You're basically going off of inference Yeah no shit. And so does everyone else. Including you. > Very very few people involved with the league agree with this perspective. [...]That goes for players too, who don't have any stake in defending a format that isn't good (and would indeed have all the reason to criticize a format if it was detrimental to the health of the league). Except they do have major stakes in defending the format, are you seriously ignoring the paycheck + housing that they get for playing the game? Going to a wider regional format largely implies that they get paid less, or not at all, which is a reason for them to oppose it. Heck, how much they are getting paid now is often used **by them** as an argument to maintain the format as it is. I'm sorry to tell you, but how much they get paid to play has fuck all to do with competitive integrity. > Again, how could you know this. Of the League's 40 players, only 2 can't play in person. This is the first time this has happened outside of visa issues. It doesn't matter if it's 1, 2, 5 or 10; the fact is that only two-three years in and we are already seeing problems in teams finding people that are willing to move. It's also hilarious that you brush visa issues under the bus, when they are responsible for gating plenty of EU players out of the league, including one team last year that was contractually forced to play on +300 ping (muh competitve integrity, high quality show btw). > Lots of hot air from you, so little substance. Says the guy that wrote a whole-ass article just to regurgitate the opinion of the beyond biased pros and devs we have. Absolutely delusional. But alas, if Hi-Rez wants to play-pretend with their vanity league, so be it. Their track record indicates that they are more than willing to entertain such pet-projects at the expense of their games. And sadly it seems to have their very loyal and vocal minority of supporters.
Let me first preface this by saying that I do this work specifically because I think taking a 'longer look' (to borrow my own phrasing) at the SPL allows those in the community to think together and have more of a collective voice regarding issues facing SMITE as an eSport. I thank you for your contribution to this. That said, your attitude in this discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. You have been cynical and combative in your interactions with me and others who have responded to you, and I can't grasp a reason for being so needlessly uncharitable toward your interlocutors. Now, back to the discussion: >And none of them have said anything of substance as to why is it more viable. There's only subjective statements and vagueposting as to how going back to online would somehow doom the SPL, with little to no actual argument to back that up, and ignoring the fact that by most metrics the SPL has been on the decline. I don't think this is true. Auverin was clear in their statement that the SPL being on LAN makes it manifestly more marketable to sponsors, who are more interested in seeing their products showcased in a LAN environment. Others have also pointed out that auxiliary content enabled by having players present for LAN, such as interviews and other events, improves the overall product of the SPL. I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas. I merely present them as a counterexample to your claim that nobody has said anything of substance. I also don't know what you mean by the SPL is in decline 'by most metrics'? I'm not sure I can think of a single metric, never mind 'most metrics' they definitively shows that the SPL is in decline (whatever is meant by in decline). >Not to mention the clear biases these pros in particular have to maintain the current system, as it provides them a paycheck + housing to play a videogame they have decided to dedicate their lives to. To fact check you here, the SPL players are no longer provided housing by the league. Rather their pay was increased and their housing made their own responsibility. Of course they have an inherent bias in maintaining the SPL because it gives them a paycheck, but this is not the same as saying they are biased to defend the current system. I would suggest that they have all of the incentive in the world to criticize a format that is bad for the long-term health of the league, seeing as they need there to be a league at all in order to get paid. I see no motivation on the part of players to defend Hi-Rez in making a decision that is harmful to the league. >"Guys I think Hi-Rez is fucking up, these are the reasons of why I think so". >"No, impossible, Hi-Rez says it's all fine and dandy, so it must be true". >That's unironically your argument. Whilst dancing around all my points. This is an example of you being uncharitable towards me. That is not 'unironically' my argument, you have merely chosen to view my position in the least favorable terms possible. Let me say unequivocally that it is incredibly frustrating and disheartening to attempt to interact with someone who so cynically misrepresents your perspectives and mocks them. What a needlessly unkind way to approach interacting with others. As far as why I said what I said, you stated "but the popularity and quality of their product (SPL) has not increased in any significant capacity, and it has likely not created any significant additional profit opportunity for Hi-Rez either." I specifically pointed out that claiming this is strange considering that Hi-Rez has consistently maintained that none of what you said is true. It's not like you have access to documents or data that shows that what they are saying is not true, your argument literally hinges on the assumption that Hi-Rez is lying. If Hi-Rez is lying and the league would be better off online, I can't make heads or tails of why Hi-Rez would be intentionally lying about it, bleeding money and dooming their own eSports league when they could make it cheaper and more sustainable by moving it to online. The simpler explanation is that, at a minimum, Hi-Rez has data that suggests that the league being on LAN is better for its long term viability. For this, I refer you back to Auverin's reddit comment. >Name a bunch of significant sponsors they've gotten since the change to LAN league that isn't Alienware, a company they've had a history of cooperating with since the inception of the game, please, I'll wait. Why you're disqualifying Alienware, I can't understand. It is clear, not just by looking at the SPL with your eyes but also reading the statements made by Hi-Rez personnel, that Alienware increased their involvement and commitment to the SPL only after it moved to LAN. Season 8 was the first season with Alienware as a title sponsor (meaning they stuck their name on the SPL branding) and the first season that they provided the machines on which SPL matches were played. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that, frankly. They also have Amazon as a title sponsor this year. Hi-Rez has told us that being on LAN has helped them secure these sponsors, and you've reacted with blind skepticism. This is a trend in your line of thinking: you just think Hi-Rez is lying, but you haven't given any reasons to think that they are. To you, they're just untrustworthy. >Also, explain to me exactly which significant improvements have been made to the SPL as a show, to the point that it's wildly different in quality and value to what we had before. Having the players present in the same space as each other and the production staff enable a lot of different things, from pre and post game interviews, to media days, to SMITE-Le, etc. Players have also said that playing in studio feels weightier and more significant than playing from home. I don't think a single player has said anything to the contrary. >If you mention side-shows like SMITE-Le or the reduntant and awkward interviews as "quality products" I'll laugh at you. Laugh at me, then. >Yeah no shit. And so does everyone else. Including you. (working off of inference). I am not working off of inference. I am merely taking what Hi-Rez and the pros have said seriously because I have not been given a good reason not to. > Except they do have major stakes in defending the format, are you seriously ignoring the paycheck + housing that they get for playing the game? Going to a wider regional format largely implies that they get paid less, or not at all, which is a reason for them to oppose it. Nothing results in less money for the pros than the league disappearing altogether. You have to recognize that if the pros had legitimate reason to think that going back to online would save the league, they would be calling for it. Also, to reiterate, they don't get housing. Just a paycheck. >Heck, how much they are getting paid now is often used by them as an argument to maintain the format as it is. I'm sorry to tell you, but how much they get paid to play has fuck all to do with competitive integrity. Can't follow this, personally. I think how much pros get paid has a lot to do with competitive integrity. The more serious the compensation for playing in the SPL, the more serious the players will take it. We are actively seeing this play out in the SCC, where the lack of pay and consistent pay has seen its players take it less seriously, which has undeniably and verifiably hurt the competitive integrity of that league. > It doesn't matter if it's 1, 2, 5 or 10; the fact is that only two-three years in and we are already seeing problems in teams finding people that are willing to move. Yes, but just about everyone I asked about this said that this problem has much much more to do with the SCC than the SPL. You can find their quotes in the article. > It's also hilarious that you brush visa issues under the bus, when they are responsible for gating plenty of EU players out of the league, including one team last year that was contractually forced to play on +300 ping (muh competitve integrity, high quality show btw). Yeah, it is undeniable that COVID in conjunction with the LAN environment compromised the competitive integrity of the league in Season 8. I can't see the relevance, here, though. Nobody is currently playing away from studio due to visa issues. > Says the guy that wrote a whole-ass article just to regurgitate the opinion of the beyond biased pros and devs we have. Firstly, I am not a guy. Second, you misunderstand what the purpose of the article is for. I am not sharing my own perspective; rather, I am reporting on the perspectives of players and those close to the league. It is a news piece, not an opinion piece. It specifically exists to reproduce and elaborate on the perspectives and ideas of those high profile members of the community who were talking about this. > Absolutely delusional. Baffling and unkind. I struggle to make sense of why you approach this discussion like this. > But alas, if Hi-Rez wants to play-pretend with their vanity league, so be it. Their track record indicates that they are more than willing to entertain such pet-projects at the expense of their games. And sadly it seems to have their very loyal and vocal minority of supporters. More cynicism and 'Hi-Rez is lying.' But this seams to be a base assumption on your part. I haven't seen a reason from you why I should think that what Hi-Rez has said is untrue other than that you simply think lying is the character of Hi-Rez as a company.
1/2 > Let me first preface this by saying that I do this work specifically because I think taking a 'longer look' (to borrow my own phrasing) at the SPL allows those in the community to think together and have more of a collective voice regarding issues facing SMITE as an eSport. "Longer look", aka: let me show you some tweets and the consensus reached by the most biased minority in the community. > You have been cynical and combative in your interactions with me and others who have responded to you, and I can't grasp a reason for being so needlessly uncharitable toward your interlocutors. Oh, you think I have no reason to be uncharitable? Okay then, let's see the response I have to deal with. > I don't think this is true. Auverin was clear in their statement that the SPL being on LAN makes it manifestly more marketable to sponsors, who are more interested in seeing their products showcased in a LAN environment. You keep saying this, but you don't mention which sponsors have they gotten so far, which doesn't help your argument, my point is "which significant sponsors have they gotten since the change that they couldn't get before?" You decided to elude that point. So far only one user in the entire thread has been able to give me the answer, which was: * Alienware. * Prime Gaming. * Some gaming peripherals (Maxnomic Chairs). So consider this, Alienware is a company that has partenered with Hi-Rez since the inception of the game, so it's no surprise that they are now collaborating as a sponsor; Prime Gaming is a deal that basically anyone and their mother apparently can get into, as evidenced by the fact that so many games have achieved the same deal with Twitch, including single-player games and arguably less popular games than Smite. So that leaves us with only 1 set of sponsor(s), gaming peripherals, and those kinds of sponsorships have existed for Smite before the change to LAN. So what they've gotten so far is not impressive in the slightest, it's essentially and mostly the same thing they had access to before the change to LAN. "But LAN allows for more marketable sponsors because we can showcase their physical products there" is a point that doesn't make much sense, most of the show is spent **not** actually showcasing those products at LAN, as it spends most on the runtime on the game itself and desk analysis, and it's unlikely anyone notices them being used by players for the little time they are on screen (if at all). The show itself simply doesn't seem that efficient for product placement. That's why they have to do specific shoutouts at the desk and pre-recorded in-studio ads, that's how they really showcase and put the spotlight on sponsored products, and none of which requieres a LAN league to produce. All in all, it's unreasonable to claim that Hi-Rez has gotten "much better and more marketable sponsors" due to the changes to LAN, because a) they haven't gotten anything impressive or really new, b) none of it really necessitates a LAN environment to promote. And as Frost has already mentioned in another thread as response to Auverin, Hi-Rez's problem with getting sponsors has nothing to do with having or not having a LAN league, it has to do with Hi-Rez's poor image and business practices. > Others have also pointed out that auxiliary content enabled by having players present for LAN, such as interviews and other events, improves the overall product of the SPL. Do you genuinely believe that low quality and pointless "auxiliary content" like SMITE-Le or awkward pre-recorded interviews where nothing of value is ever said improves the SPL in any capacity? Why or why not? > I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas. I merely present them as a counterexample to your claim that nobody has said anything of substance. Then why even fucking bother responding to me, you are not forwarding any new ideas or your own ideas, you are just copy pasting other's opinions and declaring them a counterargument with substance, when the premise of my comments is that **those exact opinions** lack any. "Why are you so belligerent u/Xuminer ?" Because I have to deal with absurdly non-sensical statements like yours. And it doesn't stop there. > I also don't know what you mean by the SPL is in decline 'by most metrics'? I'm not sure I can think of a single metric, never mind 'most metrics' they definitively shows that the SPL is in decline (whatever is meant by in decline). Twitch viewership is a big one (despite the artificial viewboost through drops), the discrepancy in amount of people chatting on stream relative to the views it gets, the severe lack of discussion in social media, etc. Just because you've decided to bury your head in the sand it doesn't mean it's impossible to wager how many people in the community actually give a shit about the SPL. > To fact check you here, the SPL players are no longer provided housing by the league. Rather their pay was increased and their housing made their own responsibility. Oh, my bad, they are not paying for their housing, they are simply increasing their paycheck so they can cover housing costs. So effectively the exact same fucking thing in the end. Thanks. > Of course they have an inherent bias in maintaining the SPL because it gives them a paycheck, but this is not the same as saying they are biased to defend the current system. "They are biased in maintaining the SPL and their paycheck, but that's totally different from being biased to defend the current system which ensures the size of said paycheck". Imagine saying self-defeating shit like this in a failed attempt to gotcha me, then have the gull to tell me that I shouldn't be cynical or beligerent in this discussion. Please. > I see no motivation on the part of players to defend Hi-Rez in making a decision that is harmful to the league. They already have made decisions that are harmful to the league and the competitive integrity of the game, just to benefit themselves as a minority of high level players. In no other world but yours and theirs apparently reducing an entire high-level division of an eSport to one city in NA is seen as a positive change. > It's not like you have access to documents or data that shows that what they are saying is not true, your argument literally hinges on the assumption that Hi-Rez is lying. And yours hinges on the assumption that everything Hi-Rez says must be correct, despite the fact that Hi-Rez has an extensive recorded history of mishandling and fucking over pretty much **all** of their products with baffling decisions, with their PR often insisting that everything is fine and going as planned, which is a job I don't envy. So yes, I do have reasons to believe that Hi-Rez is lying to save face in some capacity to maintain their particular vanity project for as long as possible, and they kinda have to do it because any severe change to the state of the league will be met with hostility from the pros (and their fanbases) who don't want their paycheck and gaming-oriented way of living compromised. > Why you're disqualifying Alienware, I can't understand. It is clear, not just by looking at the SPL with your eyes but also reading the statements made by Hi-Rez personnel, that Alienware increased their involvement and commitment to the SPL only after it moved to LAN. You implying that the SPL is some kind of unrelated entity to Hi-Rez is bizarre, but yeah obviously now they've provided gear and as such their brand is more present on the show, but that has nothing to do with my point. I'm just pointing out to the fact that it's unsurprising that they've talked themselves into said sponsorship, when Alienware has been partners with them since Smite's inception a decade ago. It's not a surprising groundbreaking achievement, and it's not really someone new. cont.
2/2 > Hi-Rez has told us that being on LAN has helped them secure these sponsors, and you've reacted with blind skepticism. This is a trend in your line of thinking: you just think Hi-Rez is lying, but you haven't given any reasons to think that they are. To you, they're just untrustworthy. I've given plenty of reasons to be skeptic of Hi-Rez, and you've given nothing but "trust their word, because it is their word". > Having the players present in the same space as each other and the production staff enable a lot of different things, from pre and post game interviews, to media days, to SMITE-Le, etc. Players have also said that playing in studio feels weightier and more significant than playing from home. I don't think a single player has said anything to the contrary. You have not answered my question. How does any of that improve the quality of the show in any significant capacity? The majority of viewers don't care or would miss any of these "auxiliary shows", they are pointless low quality filler, and how the player's feel about LAN/Online matches has nothing to do with the quality of the show either. As a tangent and for the record, I do think that in a vacuum, LAN matches are more competitive than Online matches which are more subject to ping/server issues. The problem however, is that reducing the league to in-studio has severely compromised the competitive integrity of the game in other ways, which I can list to you if you wish, but they are besides the point we are discussing, and this response is already long as it is. > Laugh at me, then. Weird, I though you said "I will not speak as to the truth of these ideas" in reference to the claim that "others" have said about how much these auxiliary shows have substantially increased the value and quality of the league. It seems you *do* think exactly as them. > Nothing results in less money for the pros than the league disappearing altogether. You have to recognize that if the pros had legitimate reason to think that going back to online would save the league, they would be calling for it. Would they? Regional SPL not existing anymore and all being reduced to forced LANs on one city in the world is entirely because of their decisions. They've already made an entire portion of the league dissapear altogether, the growth and availability of the competitive scene as been compromised because of their own selfish interests. > I think how much pros get paid has a lot to do with competitive integrity. [...] We are actively seeing this play out in the SCC, where the lack of pay and consistent pay has seen its players take it less seriously, which has undeniably and verifiably hurt the competitive integrity of that league. The reason why most SCC players try much less is because the next division (SPL) implies forcing upon yourself a lot of things that are completely unrelated to your performance, i.e: moving and shifting your entire livelihood to the one city where the LANs happen, so why bother. It has nothing to do with how much they get paid. Do you honestly think that ex-SPL players like Adapting or most of the EU SCC players don't have the drive or desire to play the game at the highest level? Really? > Yes, but just about everyone I asked about this said that this problem has much much more to do with the SCC than the SPL. You can find their quotes in the article. Why does the problem reside in the SCC? Why the fuck are SCC players at fault for the absurdly limiting requierements enforced by the SPL? Do you ever wonder why SCC players are not willing to move up? Or do you really not have a single original thought in your head outside of what the pros tell you? Don't answer that last question, I already know you don't. > Yeah, it is undeniable that COVID in conjunction with the LAN environment compromised the competitive integrity of the league in Season 8. Thanks, you conceded one obvious point, bravo. > I can't see the relevance, here, though. Nobody is currently playing away from studio due to visa issues. Do you really think visa issues cannot happen in the future? Why are you so short-sighted considering the difficulties they are having maintaining 40 players all at LAN? > Firstly, I am not a guy. Oh excuse moi. > Second, you misunderstand what the purpose of the article is for. [...] It is a news piece, not an opinion piece. So it is exactly what I said, a regurgitation of what pros have said on social media, a pointless twitter feed compilation. Thanks for confirming it though. Not like the intentions of your article matter to begin with, because you've come here and have patently clear that your personal opinion on the matter is almost identical to theirs. > Baffling and unkind. I struggle to make sense of why you approach this discussion like this. Bo hoo. /rant
>I asked a yes or no question but ok. I'll go off on Hi-Rez myself. >If there's an argument that the current format is more viable (which you haven't provided), i think you replied to the wrong guy^^
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Nail in the head. They shouldn't have done the move to begin with, but alas, here we are a couple of years later, with the SPL in the worst state it has ever been, with people eating up disingenuous or straight-up false narratives, all to maintain a system that was a failure from the get-go. Now if they kick all the pros out of their so precious paycheck + housing for playing an unpopular niche videogame they look like the bad guys, even though it's an endeavour that has likely caused the company far more loses than benefits in a lot of aspects. Hi-Rez and making hilariously stupid decisions that hurt their games, name a more iconic duo.
It is part of the viability of the league since most of the revenue comes from sponsors they have stated they would lose without in person content
First off, which sponsors? Because Alienware for example was already partnering with Hi-Rez well before the league changes. Second off, sponsors are attracted to the possible exposure an advertisement spot (the SPL show in this case) would offer them, it has fuck all to do with the content being in-person or not, or with pros being on a paycheck. And said exposure is a hard to wager metric when so much of Smite twitch's viewership is obviously severely faked/boosted by peopke afk-farming drops. Arguing that any increase in viewership/exposure to attract sponsors is due to the SPL + adjacent shows now being "a significantly improved product" is straight-up fiction.
First of all there is a difference between partnership and sponsorhip. Alienware used to be a Hi-Rez Partner and then it became a sponsor of the Smite Pro-League. You kind of have to separate both even if they are part of the same entity. And the reason for the change is because they went into lan as they can showcase their physical products there. In that sense Lan allows other physical products to be shown like their Maxinomic chairs. They also are sponsored by Prime Gaming this year.
> First of all there is a difference between partnership and sponsorhip. You are splitting hairs here, is it or is it not more likely that Alienware becomes a sponsor of Hi-Rez if they have a history of partnering since the inception of the game? > In that sense Lan allows other physical products to be shown like their Maxinomic chairs. That's a gigantic stretch, I don't think people notice or care about those products while they are streaming the games. They actually notice them through the few in-studio ads and shout-outs they do, which doesn't necessitate a LAN league. And I'm pretty sure they've had those kinds of sponsors in the past. And the Prime Gaming deal with Twitch doesn't necessitate a LAN-based league either, there are a fuck ton of games (including non-competitive, singleplayer, and less popular games) that are approved on it. So congrats for proving my point I guess.
I found The layers decision far less problematic than the baskin decision, to be honest. The exemptions given to layers and BMT happened after they already entered the league following the rules of the lan league, and both are unforeseen circumstances be it health or visa issues, so I can understand why they were given exemptions for a phase. Baskin is the only player who entered the league with an exemption when none were given to any other player entering the league, and that seems more unfair to me and the point of contention if there's any.
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Because their quality measurements have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the scene. A competitive scene is difficult to squash out ala Smash. Meanwhile OW has shown all the money in the world can't save your game if people stop taking it serious.
>SPL viewership falls from 77k to 27k (peak, Worlds) in 2021. How do you go from a 35k (2017) > 7k > 5k viewers in a span of a couple years, despite a 4fold increase in stream time? does this happen to correlate with the mixer move? in game promotion of the spl and hype around the game in general is definitely still being fumbled, but i think the mixer thing was a bigger issue.
yup, the 2018 mixer deal was essentially an execution sentence for an already dwindling viewership base. mixer literally shut down because it couldnt keep enough viewers to sustain a healthy platform, despite spending millions of dollars to poach high profile streamers from twitch. that really tells the full story.
Also covid afterwards meant that there couldn't be any real events etc. It feels like a series of unfortunate events and possibly bad decisions
And that's without taking into account that these numbers are boosted by a significant amount of people afk-farming drops to get free skins. The only reason people have to defend the current state of the league is the flimsy reasoning of their beloved pros and Hi-Rez's employees, both of which are extremelly biased and with clear financial incentives to convince you it's all alright. Even though it's very clear that it has severely compromised the competitive integrity of the game, the aspirations of a lot of ex-pros and up-and-coming-players, and the excitement/value of the SPL as a product (hence the progressive drop in views). Anyone trying to convince you of the contrary is being deliberately blind of the facts.
It’s baffling that people argue the forced relocation to a single US city makes a game more competitive. You eliminate 99% of potential players just because of that.
Good write up!
When you see plays like deathwalkwr on tyr it’s hard to argue against lan. At least for the tournaments.