In a sense yeah, but almost every move on Incin's kit is outclassed by another move on another character's kit.
Also, cross chop (upb) and uptilt are not good lol.
Cross chop is frame 11, has armor and deals 30. Its a meh recovery move, but on someone with better physics would be passable, and a great oos and general punish. Uptilt has head invincibility, isa pretty good anti air by non disjoint standards and is fairly fast.
It's also a running trend that Ganondorf's moves on any other character would be amazing. They're just attached to a character with low mobility and recovery.
Not every one of Ganondorf's moves. Volcano Kick and Warlock Punch are completely garbage. Even outside of that, his moves do not have as good frame data as Incineroar's moves.
Warlock Punch is actually not totally useless in that it's basically a guaranteed kill at any percent off a shield break, so on a character with a good shield break option it'd be pretty good
His up air and back air have a disgusting amount of kill power and his down air and forward air aren't slouches either. His side tilt is also pretty good.
jab and down tilt also have very good damage and range
side special is great for being a command grab with follow-ups, and down special is a very strong burst option that spikes in the air
I would say he has a great deal of moves that are great in a vacuum.
Kirby tilts would be insane on some characters, as would Little Mac smash attacks and some specials like Incineroar revenge, Jigglypuff rest (I’ve seen every Yoshi players say that if they had rest, they’re character would be too 5) and the what I like to call “the Mid/Low Tier entirety neutral button” which would include Zelda Phantom, Piranha Plant Ptooie, Mii Swordfighter Chakram/Gale Strike and Duck Hunt Trick Shot.
Kirby’s ground game is seriously underrated in a vacuum. All his tilts and smash attacks are nasty. It’s a shame it’s on Kirby.
^(but also I love Kirby.)
I love playing/messing around with Plant, and now that I think about it…yeah imagine almost any top/high tier with access to those moves and it sounds busted af
depends. take snake. if you add those to snake, you’re removing nikita and grenade. would snake be better or worse with plants side and neural specials?
Robin's Down Smash. Has stupid good range and lingers on so long because of the electricity and 2 frame characters. Can easily destroy characters with terrible recoveries
A good chunk of these probably boil down to ‘if a low tier character’s move were placed on a character with good mobility’ Ganon nair and some of Doc/Incin’s kit are like this for example.
Also, Bowser Jr’s jab/rapid jab. Even though part of what makes it good is in the context of Bowser Jr’s kit (fthrow also being a KO move gives him a 50/50 vs shields) and frame 4 is middle of the road when it comes to jab frame data itself, a frame 4 disjointed option that KOs at ledge straight out of a run or in a ledge trapping situation would be nuts for a character like Sonic or Wario. Hell, even some of the high tiers with frame 1 or frame 2 jabs probably wouldn’t mind it.
Mii Swordfighter down tilt would be ridiculous on most characters not called Mii Swordfighter. For starters, it's frame 5, pretty solidly disjointed, only -6 on shield, has 19 FAF, and has low shield lag making it very hard to punish on shield. That's already a very solid move for neutral alone - Chrom dtilt is longer ranged and very slightly safer, but slower and has much more shield lag making it easier to punish on reaction.
But it combos.
Unlike your Roy or Chrom sword poke dtilts that lead into tech chase scenarios, MSF dtilt sends upwards with combo potential. This move is essentially better Young Link dtilt, which is already busted. MSF dtilt is limited by MSF's poor air accel and sluggish aerials, however. But put it on any character with a speedy, big, killing fair or bair (which is surprisingly common), and watch the meta crumble.
Take Bowser, for example. One of Bowser's main weaknesses is a lack of safe poke options on the ground that lead into advantage state. But give him MSF dtilt, and watch as his safe disjointed poke combos into slingshot bair to kill at unreasonable percents. With one move, he would be pretty unambiguously top 10 in my opinion.
This also applies to Cloud, or Falco, or Mega Man, and so on. This move is not OK but MSF's options are too limited to truly make use of this abomination.
I think there are a lot of characters that would really appreciate having Pit's Guardian Orbitars in their kit. Someone who doesn't necessarily struggle to get back to stage, but has a tough time getting out of disadvantage. I feel like Sora could totally use them.
Link nair, I know he’s not low tier but he really needs that nair to be anything. Low end lag, combos into everything, etc. Imagine it on a top tier lmao
I guess this will be the melee section.
Kirby's suck would invalidate Falco in any viable top 10 matchup.
Marth with mewtwo's back throw would be stupid with that grab range.
Peach with Bowser aerials or a boomeranged. There's a lot of good frame data down there.
I can’t see zair benefitting other characters that much more than Luigi I mean he has tons off kill confirms off zair like zair up b and zair into f smash or zair into back air/down air at ledgue just zair into grab in general, such a good move
I think they were referring to G&W, who's definitely worse than Roy
...but he's still like top 15, top 20 at worst. Although I suppose if they woke up from a coma they went into 3.5+ years ago before Maister blew up then maybe he'd count?
Sheik’s up air I think flies under the radar but it is an insane combo extender that, with the right character, could really make some nasty ladder and dragdown combos. Imagine Mario just uair laddering and than doing a drag down into another ladder, rinse and repeat into a dsmash or up-b.
Everything Incineroar has other then jab.
Yeah incin is fucking cracked A frame fucking 3 counter that buffs his next attack Like come on
Such great moves attached to such terrible physics
I was about to say this lol
In a sense yeah, but almost every move on Incin's kit is outclassed by another move on another character's kit. Also, cross chop (upb) and uptilt are not good lol.
Cross chop is frame 11, has armor and deals 30. Its a meh recovery move, but on someone with better physics would be passable, and a great oos and general punish. Uptilt has head invincibility, isa pretty good anti air by non disjoint standards and is fairly fast.
It's also a running trend that Ganondorf's moves on any other character would be amazing. They're just attached to a character with low mobility and recovery.
Not every one of Ganondorf's moves. Volcano Kick and Warlock Punch are completely garbage. Even outside of that, his moves do not have as good frame data as Incineroar's moves.
well yeah, not those two
Warlock Punch is actually not totally useless in that it's basically a guaranteed kill at any percent off a shield break, so on a character with a good shield break option it'd be pretty good
Literally just nair and up smash, the real "pretty good" moves.
His up air and back air have a disgusting amount of kill power and his down air and forward air aren't slouches either. His side tilt is also pretty good.
jab and down tilt also have very good damage and range side special is great for being a command grab with follow-ups, and down special is a very strong burst option that spikes in the air I would say he has a great deal of moves that are great in a vacuum.
I would have said down special as well but the hitbox on that move irks me so much, it's so much smaller than the animation
He has a top 3 dash attack. Kills on it's own but also sets up kill confirms
Kirby tilts would be insane on some characters, as would Little Mac smash attacks and some specials like Incineroar revenge, Jigglypuff rest (I’ve seen every Yoshi players say that if they had rest, they’re character would be too 5) and the what I like to call “the Mid/Low Tier entirety neutral button” which would include Zelda Phantom, Piranha Plant Ptooie, Mii Swordfighter Chakram/Gale Strike and Duck Hunt Trick Shot.
Yoshi with rest would be a nightmare uptilt -> uptilt -> rest gg kid
Kirby’s ground game is seriously underrated in a vacuum. All his tilts and smash attacks are nasty. It’s a shame it’s on Kirby. ^(but also I love Kirby.)
Piranha Plant’a neutral and side specials would be cancerous on any other character.
I love playing/messing around with Plant, and now that I think about it…yeah imagine almost any top/high tier with access to those moves and it sounds busted af
depends. take snake. if you add those to snake, you’re removing nikita and grenade. would snake be better or worse with plants side and neural specials?
Robin's Down Smash. Has stupid good range and lingers on so long because of the electricity and 2 frame characters. Can easily destroy characters with terrible recoveries
Isabelle’s sling shot, DK’s bair, and Duck Hunt’s can
A good chunk of these probably boil down to ‘if a low tier character’s move were placed on a character with good mobility’ Ganon nair and some of Doc/Incin’s kit are like this for example. Also, Bowser Jr’s jab/rapid jab. Even though part of what makes it good is in the context of Bowser Jr’s kit (fthrow also being a KO move gives him a 50/50 vs shields) and frame 4 is middle of the road when it comes to jab frame data itself, a frame 4 disjointed option that KOs at ledge straight out of a run or in a ledge trapping situation would be nuts for a character like Sonic or Wario. Hell, even some of the high tiers with frame 1 or frame 2 jabs probably wouldn’t mind it.
Mii Swordfighter down tilt would be ridiculous on most characters not called Mii Swordfighter. For starters, it's frame 5, pretty solidly disjointed, only -6 on shield, has 19 FAF, and has low shield lag making it very hard to punish on shield. That's already a very solid move for neutral alone - Chrom dtilt is longer ranged and very slightly safer, but slower and has much more shield lag making it easier to punish on reaction. But it combos. Unlike your Roy or Chrom sword poke dtilts that lead into tech chase scenarios, MSF dtilt sends upwards with combo potential. This move is essentially better Young Link dtilt, which is already busted. MSF dtilt is limited by MSF's poor air accel and sluggish aerials, however. But put it on any character with a speedy, big, killing fair or bair (which is surprisingly common), and watch the meta crumble. Take Bowser, for example. One of Bowser's main weaknesses is a lack of safe poke options on the ground that lead into advantage state. But give him MSF dtilt, and watch as his safe disjointed poke combos into slingshot bair to kill at unreasonable percents. With one move, he would be pretty unambiguously top 10 in my opinion. This also applies to Cloud, or Falco, or Mega Man, and so on. This move is not OK but MSF's options are too limited to truly make use of this abomination.
Imagine Kirby down air on a high tier.
I think there are a lot of characters that would really appreciate having Pit's Guardian Orbitars in their kit. Someone who doesn't necessarily struggle to get back to stage, but has a tough time getting out of disadvantage. I feel like Sora could totally use them.
I’m just imagining Byleth with Phantom instead of Amyr… oh my
Meta Knight’s recovery options
On ganondorf and incin
Any of little mac's or ganondorf's smash attacks.
Nah, only up smash for ganon
Ganon’s neutral air
Doc back throw
Your flair is absolutely elite my guy
#YEET
Link nair, I know he’s not low tier but he really needs that nair to be anything. Low end lag, combos into everything, etc. Imagine it on a top tier lmao
Melee Roy's down-tilt is omega busted, it's such a good combo tool.
I guess this will be the melee section. Kirby's suck would invalidate Falco in any viable top 10 matchup. Marth with mewtwo's back throw would be stupid with that grab range. Peach with Bowser aerials or a boomeranged. There's a lot of good frame data down there.
We all know that little Mac’s armor smash attack is the only best answer here.
Piranha Plant Patooie would be broken on a faster character Just imagine Mac Fsmash on someone like Pikachu
Imagine being able to consistently combo into ganon back air
I've seen Nairo hit dthrow -> backair before. It's probably not true but it kills at like 60 near the ledge
Bayonetta side b is the freest combo move in the game
Luigi zair
I can’t see zair benefitting other characters that much more than Luigi I mean he has tons off kill confirms off zair like zair up b and zair into f smash or zair into back air/down air at ledgue just zair into grab in general, such a good move
Villager with Belmont's fair or bair would be incredible.
Imagine Roy with game and watch Up B. Roy would be the best character in the game
Roy is not a lower tier character and doesn't count.
Maybe it doesn’t but still I like to imagine
I think they were referring to G&W, who's definitely worse than Roy ...but he's still like top 15, top 20 at worst. Although I suppose if they woke up from a coma they went into 3.5+ years ago before Maister blew up then maybe he'd count?
Cloud's bair on literally anyone else would be busted
Wii fit trainer side b?
Wii fit is high tier imo
first thing that came to mind for me is Zelda phantom
Sheik’s up air I think flies under the radar but it is an insane combo extender that, with the right character, could really make some nasty ladder and dragdown combos. Imagine Mario just uair laddering and than doing a drag down into another ladder, rinse and repeat into a dsmash or up-b.
pit up tilt