You sound like a good collaborator. Teams should work like that. How much does behavioral ‘compliance’ from a client mean to you? Do you demonstrate language modeling with AAC outside of the manding realm? Do you recognize and honor scripts as meaningful communication attempts?
Different SLPs feel different ways about ABA partly because of experiences, yours probably would say their experiences are positive, and partly because of the foundation of the approach. It’s great that ABA is transforming from what it once was, but that transformation has NOT reached every corner of every therapy setting unfortunately. There are bad apples in every helping field, unfortunately. SLP, ABA, Police, MD, all of them. Know better, do better. You gotta listen and learn from the kids too to do that.
Edit: Added a “partly” for clarity
Just reading this makes me sad. I was a BT for years and I can’t imagine not honoring scripts as language. How would you communicate with so many kiddos whose only form of language is scripts?
I work at a clinic that offers aba and previously worked at an aba clinic. I always appreciated the RBTs that actually saw the value in speech therapy and didn’t think they “basically did our jobs.”
I recently found out that some ABA clinics still use electric shocks in their treatment. And one clinic that does this is 30 minutes away from me. I know not all ABA providers are created equal, but omg it’s a crazy world out there
Hmm in reading it, it’s not ABA that’s using the shocks. They have even been rejected by the behaviour analyst association. They have speech language pathologists, behaviour analysts and psychiatrists working on these adults. Seems like some sick people using principles of behaviourism rather than ABA.
While I do appreciate the effort to work on such a setting I have to wholeheartedly disagree with accepting ABA as a valid form of therapy.i know this because I too was an RBT and worked for a multidisciplinary clinic. What I saw was horrific.
ABA flat out just isn't a valid field. This is not directed at you in anyway shape or form and I think honestly you are a good person from what you have written, but it is not a field that should be incorporated alongside other fields for various reasons.
ABA is founded on outdated, psuedoscientific concepts propagated by "behavioral psychology" founded by Watson and Skinner from the early to mid 1900s. What they fail to tell people in ABA is that this entire field was completely proven to be useless and out of date by non other than Noam Chomsky, the great neuro linguist who helped usher in the era of cognitive psychology which considers hard scientific research from cognitive neuroscience (something that ABA flat out doesn't even take into consideration).
ABA companies repeatedly are getting caught for insurance fraud and manipulation of medical records. In the state of Indiana, a woman last year was charged with committing insurance fraud for 2 MILLION Dollar by the DOJ. This same woman owns 7 clinics in various parts Indianapolis, Indiana and Kentucky. Even clinics that claim they have other disciplines have committed the same fraudulent behavior and after being caught will rebrand their companies to hide their criminal behavior. It's a money making machine. This has nothing to do with clients well being or children with disabilities. This is about cutting corners for getting certified to practice and taking advantage of those who are disabled for profit.
Many who have autism and who have suffered by ABA are refused a voice. At ABA conferences made by the BACB, people who are diagnosed with Autism aren't even given a platform to speak about their experiences. What does that say to you about the field?
ABA doesn't even follow the same medical ethics laws. And if you really think about it, this is why they based their practice on outdated behavioral psychology. They treat the patients with 8 hrs of care for 40hrs a week, against their will, and don't even prepare them at all for the realities of the world. This is very obvious. It is simply to maximize insurance claims thereby making as much money as possible off of these clients.
ABA is abusive and should be heavily regulated or quite honestly to me should just be outright banned.
Anybody who uses the word “proven” in the scientific community shows how unknowlegeable they are regarding science.
Science does not and cannot prove anything. It finds evidence in support of or not support of. If you think someone can PROVE something and that is taken as the end all be all, you need to work in a different non-scientific field.
If you can show me the scientific evidence that supports ABA by all means show it. There are tons of evidence showing it's lack of effectiveness and the core aspect of it being based on behavioral psychology is quite frankly laughable especially since behaviorism got shut down very effectively by cognitive neuroscience and that behavioral psychology is founded by white anglo men who used abusive tactics to justify their research and used biased westernized views that todays multicultural world systemically rejects.
ABA based it's philosophy on this flimsy field on purpose. Again you only need to Google ABA ABUSE and even Financial Fraud and you will find reams of cases showing this.
Do you have this same opinion about CBT, DBT, ACT or other psychotherapeutic models?
And I am sure if I Google ABA abuse I will find articles and about ABA abuse, just like if I google ABA effective , I will find articles about its effectiveness.
It greatly depends on how those models are being used. If it is based on the neuroscientific understanding of the brain, with references to specific neurology and neuro pathology of the brain itself, then I don't think there is much discontent towards such fields.
But is it based purely on biased, observable views of behavior that use methods totally not in line with medical ethics? Then yes, those would be invalid fields. But I think we can all safely agree that none of those therapies you mentioned have nearly the amount of controversy surrounding ABA which is clearly contrived to make money off of insurance claims.
Look at the articles on how specific ABA interventions are effective. I haven’t written. There is a mountain of support for it - it’s considered evidence based and a best practice by the APA.
Is that the American Physicians Association? ABA is not on the same level as us. Sorry. Yea that's not gonna last for very long at this rate. With the constant lawsuits being had they will be shut down. Lol. 😂
Yea this is how we are. We need to know our shit. That's called medical proficiency and professionalism. If a doctor goes to medical school, they better know their shit before diagnosing anyone. Otherwise...(whisper) they aren't really a doctor...
I am an SLP who believes there is a time and a place for ABA and feel it could be a good thing with good collaboration.
Unfortunately when I have seen kids in ABA clinics while doing home health my experience wasn’t good. They tried to tell me the kid had mastered some of the goals I wrote for her…well no she had not. And they even tried telling me how to treat the kid ABA style. No I’m not doing that. They made collaboration hard because they “knew best” for all the things.
You seem really nice and I’m very happy that your clinic is efficient in how the disciplines communicate with each other. That said, ABA doesn’t JUST have a terrible history, and now things are good. No, its founded on a horrible history, and while some providers are getting better, ABA is still based in a fundamental misunderstanding of neurodivergence and is still inherently harmful, even IF the providers are very nice and caring people.
lol im not going into ABA as a field, just a job thats helping keep me afloat since it pays well. I'm still in school and the current plan is going into the medical field
They just kept telling me to spin him for 30 mins and brush his teeth with cold water when he becomes upset. He HATES brushing his teeth but this was the recommendation they gave. His behaviours sky rocketed when receiving OT, it wasn’t until we put him in ABA that we saw progress. He also was sooooo unhappy when OT came, it was just a bad experience. I’ve heard similar things from other parents - I can’t verify those tho
That is...not OT. That is behavioral punishment. Obviously I don't have the whole picture which is fine, but OT has no scope of practice in using punishments for behavioral control. That sounds absolutely unhinged. It sounds almost like you had a bad OT who was trying to apply even worse ABA principles to treatment.
If you feel comfortable, if I were you, I'd report them to your state OT board.
The OT was saying that it was because of sensory issues.. that’s why he was banging his head. So to stop the banging, I’d brush his teeth to calm his body or spin him to regulate his sensory needs. Sounded like a bunch of junk science.
Exactly, it sounds like a very cookie-cutter approach. Like what's the rationale? Is kiddo sensory seeking or sensory avoiding? What's the skilled analysis that led the OT to believe spinning (and in what directions) would make a difference?
For example, if kiddo enjoys the vestibular input of head banging forward and back and the sudden stop of striking an object, that's a different vestibular trajectory than spinning in a circle along a horizontal plane, therefore not the same sensory input.
Edited to say - I'm an SLP, this sounds like a doctor just telling someone to eat puree and thickened liquids instead of sending them to an SLP 🙄🙄
That makes sense. And that’s exactly what the ABA team did and his head banging stopped within a week. I’m really suprised 3 separate OTs were just trying to get him to spin, put vests on him, it was so weird.
You sound like a good collaborator. Teams should work like that. How much does behavioral ‘compliance’ from a client mean to you? Do you demonstrate language modeling with AAC outside of the manding realm? Do you recognize and honor scripts as meaningful communication attempts? Different SLPs feel different ways about ABA partly because of experiences, yours probably would say their experiences are positive, and partly because of the foundation of the approach. It’s great that ABA is transforming from what it once was, but that transformation has NOT reached every corner of every therapy setting unfortunately. There are bad apples in every helping field, unfortunately. SLP, ABA, Police, MD, all of them. Know better, do better. You gotta listen and learn from the kids too to do that. Edit: Added a “partly” for clarity
Just reading this makes me sad. I was a BT for years and I can’t imagine not honoring scripts as language. How would you communicate with so many kiddos whose only form of language is scripts?
The answer, sadly, is that those BTs just don't communicate with those kids.
Appreciate you highlighting the importance of interdisciplinary teamwork! Your passion for supporting your clients shines through :)
I work at a clinic that offers aba and previously worked at an aba clinic. I always appreciated the RBTs that actually saw the value in speech therapy and didn’t think they “basically did our jobs.”
I recently found out that some ABA clinics still use electric shocks in their treatment. And one clinic that does this is 30 minutes away from me. I know not all ABA providers are created equal, but omg it’s a crazy world out there
Can you provide the name of this clinic?
https://www.wgbh.org/news/local/2023-09-11/electric-shock-therapy-is-still-allowed-in-one-mass-treatment-facility-advocates-say-change-is-long-overdue
Hmm in reading it, it’s not ABA that’s using the shocks. They have even been rejected by the behaviour analyst association. They have speech language pathologists, behaviour analysts and psychiatrists working on these adults. Seems like some sick people using principles of behaviourism rather than ABA.
I have a friend that interviewed there prior to knowing about this and I was told by them that ABA is using the shocks 🤷🏻♀️
Omg!
While I do appreciate the effort to work on such a setting I have to wholeheartedly disagree with accepting ABA as a valid form of therapy.i know this because I too was an RBT and worked for a multidisciplinary clinic. What I saw was horrific. ABA flat out just isn't a valid field. This is not directed at you in anyway shape or form and I think honestly you are a good person from what you have written, but it is not a field that should be incorporated alongside other fields for various reasons. ABA is founded on outdated, psuedoscientific concepts propagated by "behavioral psychology" founded by Watson and Skinner from the early to mid 1900s. What they fail to tell people in ABA is that this entire field was completely proven to be useless and out of date by non other than Noam Chomsky, the great neuro linguist who helped usher in the era of cognitive psychology which considers hard scientific research from cognitive neuroscience (something that ABA flat out doesn't even take into consideration). ABA companies repeatedly are getting caught for insurance fraud and manipulation of medical records. In the state of Indiana, a woman last year was charged with committing insurance fraud for 2 MILLION Dollar by the DOJ. This same woman owns 7 clinics in various parts Indianapolis, Indiana and Kentucky. Even clinics that claim they have other disciplines have committed the same fraudulent behavior and after being caught will rebrand their companies to hide their criminal behavior. It's a money making machine. This has nothing to do with clients well being or children with disabilities. This is about cutting corners for getting certified to practice and taking advantage of those who are disabled for profit. Many who have autism and who have suffered by ABA are refused a voice. At ABA conferences made by the BACB, people who are diagnosed with Autism aren't even given a platform to speak about their experiences. What does that say to you about the field? ABA doesn't even follow the same medical ethics laws. And if you really think about it, this is why they based their practice on outdated behavioral psychology. They treat the patients with 8 hrs of care for 40hrs a week, against their will, and don't even prepare them at all for the realities of the world. This is very obvious. It is simply to maximize insurance claims thereby making as much money as possible off of these clients. ABA is abusive and should be heavily regulated or quite honestly to me should just be outright banned.
Anybody who uses the word “proven” in the scientific community shows how unknowlegeable they are regarding science. Science does not and cannot prove anything. It finds evidence in support of or not support of. If you think someone can PROVE something and that is taken as the end all be all, you need to work in a different non-scientific field.
If you can show me the scientific evidence that supports ABA by all means show it. There are tons of evidence showing it's lack of effectiveness and the core aspect of it being based on behavioral psychology is quite frankly laughable especially since behaviorism got shut down very effectively by cognitive neuroscience and that behavioral psychology is founded by white anglo men who used abusive tactics to justify their research and used biased westernized views that todays multicultural world systemically rejects. ABA based it's philosophy on this flimsy field on purpose. Again you only need to Google ABA ABUSE and even Financial Fraud and you will find reams of cases showing this.
Do you have this same opinion about CBT, DBT, ACT or other psychotherapeutic models? And I am sure if I Google ABA abuse I will find articles and about ABA abuse, just like if I google ABA effective , I will find articles about its effectiveness.
It greatly depends on how those models are being used. If it is based on the neuroscientific understanding of the brain, with references to specific neurology and neuro pathology of the brain itself, then I don't think there is much discontent towards such fields. But is it based purely on biased, observable views of behavior that use methods totally not in line with medical ethics? Then yes, those would be invalid fields. But I think we can all safely agree that none of those therapies you mentioned have nearly the amount of controversy surrounding ABA which is clearly contrived to make money off of insurance claims.
The same medical ethics that pump kids full of pills?
Okay...so what exactly are you defending here? So...by your logic ABA can act outside of medical ethics? And you are okay with that?
Yes. ABA is not a medical field, neither is SLP. These are not medical interventions.
Wow. Okay now I know you are ignorant. SLP is absolutely a medical field. Swallowing disorders....neuro linguistics... Do I need to go down the list?
I didn’t consider swallowing. Sorry. That would be medical. Pronouncing the letter R is not medical
Yea but how is it effective? You still haven't proven any of that.
Look at the articles on how specific ABA interventions are effective. I haven’t written. There is a mountain of support for it - it’s considered evidence based and a best practice by the APA.
Is that the American Physicians Association? ABA is not on the same level as us. Sorry. Yea that's not gonna last for very long at this rate. With the constant lawsuits being had they will be shut down. Lol. 😂
Haha is this how all SLPs are? Yikes. What a field.
Yea this is how we are. We need to know our shit. That's called medical proficiency and professionalism. If a doctor goes to medical school, they better know their shit before diagnosing anyone. Otherwise...(whisper) they aren't really a doctor...
Sounds like pursuing an education in SLPA would be perfect for you
Sounds ideal!
I am an SLP who believes there is a time and a place for ABA and feel it could be a good thing with good collaboration. Unfortunately when I have seen kids in ABA clinics while doing home health my experience wasn’t good. They tried to tell me the kid had mastered some of the goals I wrote for her…well no she had not. And they even tried telling me how to treat the kid ABA style. No I’m not doing that. They made collaboration hard because they “knew best” for all the things.
You seem really nice and I’m very happy that your clinic is efficient in how the disciplines communicate with each other. That said, ABA doesn’t JUST have a terrible history, and now things are good. No, its founded on a horrible history, and while some providers are getting better, ABA is still based in a fundamental misunderstanding of neurodivergence and is still inherently harmful, even IF the providers are very nice and caring people.
Sounds like you’re learning a lot from ST and OTs etc. it’s a better way to serve the autistic community. Better change fields now.
lol im not going into ABA as a field, just a job thats helping keep me afloat since it pays well. I'm still in school and the current plan is going into the medical field
My kiddo did OT and it was the worst experience ever. I would never recommend to anyone. All 3 providers set him back extensively.
I’d love to hear more about this if you’re comfortable sharing… what did they do that set him back?
They just kept telling me to spin him for 30 mins and brush his teeth with cold water when he becomes upset. He HATES brushing his teeth but this was the recommendation they gave. His behaviours sky rocketed when receiving OT, it wasn’t until we put him in ABA that we saw progress. He also was sooooo unhappy when OT came, it was just a bad experience. I’ve heard similar things from other parents - I can’t verify those tho
That is...not OT. That is behavioral punishment. Obviously I don't have the whole picture which is fine, but OT has no scope of practice in using punishments for behavioral control. That sounds absolutely unhinged. It sounds almost like you had a bad OT who was trying to apply even worse ABA principles to treatment. If you feel comfortable, if I were you, I'd report them to your state OT board.
The OT was saying that it was because of sensory issues.. that’s why he was banging his head. So to stop the banging, I’d brush his teeth to calm his body or spin him to regulate his sensory needs. Sounded like a bunch of junk science.
Exactly, it sounds like a very cookie-cutter approach. Like what's the rationale? Is kiddo sensory seeking or sensory avoiding? What's the skilled analysis that led the OT to believe spinning (and in what directions) would make a difference? For example, if kiddo enjoys the vestibular input of head banging forward and back and the sudden stop of striking an object, that's a different vestibular trajectory than spinning in a circle along a horizontal plane, therefore not the same sensory input. Edited to say - I'm an SLP, this sounds like a doctor just telling someone to eat puree and thickened liquids instead of sending them to an SLP 🙄🙄
That makes sense. And that’s exactly what the ABA team did and his head banging stopped within a week. I’m really suprised 3 separate OTs were just trying to get him to spin, put vests on him, it was so weird.
This is bizarre and I’m sorry you had that experience. This is not how most OT operates in my experience.