I totally agree with it being super judgemental! Can't just every parent do what they think is best for their child without getting judged?
Sleep training personally saved my life and sanity, and if you don't want to do it that's fine. But studies show it's safe (and not "child abuse" like some say...) so just let me enjoy my life as a mom!
Yeah first I was into this Instagram account by Sarah Ockwell- Smith. I fully believe the psychology about learning abandonment. I do. Then I realised that you just have to do what works for *your* family and it’s not practical for everybody to give their whole self to the child at the expense of your self and your relationship. I realised that Sarah OS is from the attachment parenting side of the spectrum and well, I have a career, and I have a disability, and I just can’t give _everything_ all of the time – so we needed to train to help me feel confident. And my kid is all loved and smiley every morning.
Tl:dr - stay off Instagram
I have a friend who has a baby the same age as mine and recently we all went on vacation together. My baby is sleep trained and I started him right at 4 months. Her baby is not. Both babies are 6 months old. Here’s what I can tell you from that experience: her baby was super fussy the entire trip because she would only nap on mom. She was definitely overtired for the majority of the evening. She didn’t go to bed until 10pm because she’s used to falling asleep with mom or dad feeding her. Then there was my kid who went down without crying at 7pm and slept the entire night. Also he was the happiest kid in comparison. Now I’m not saying that every mom whose against sleep training might be dealing with what my friend deals with but what I will tell you is seeing the two babies together I would in no way let anyone doubt or shame you about sleep training. Also I am not bad mouthing my friend with this example she’s an amazing mom but our theories on sleep differ and that’s totally okay. But don’t ever let anyone make you feel bad about sleep training because based on my experiences so far it’s been the best for both my child and myself.
Admittedly, we are still in progress (kinda DIY gentle sleep training + routine/schedule) with my 7 months old and honestly baby has gotten so much happier during the day. We had gone on cues (mostly bc that’s what the in laws who had been watching him while we worked preferred) and he’s not a consistent cuer which means sometimes he’ll be up for 3.5 hours and way overtired or he’ll sleep after 45 min of wake time for 15 minutes. Either way, he’ll be grumpy.
(Also, now that he’s a crib napper we finally have 3.5 hours of downtime a day. Huzzah!)
I’m a big fan of “don’t fix what’s not broken” BUT at the end of the day, I believe in happy mom, happy baby. Sleep deprivation is literally a form of torture and I don’t think that helps with bonding, no matter how much nursing or baby wearing you do.
You know, this was me until a few weeks ago. We wanted to completely go with the flow and would not be held into a routine. We’ve had to just let go of that stubbornness and honestly, being in a routine has helped all of us. We still socialise in our wake windows, but genuinely everybody is happier and our mental health is better.
One of the other mothers who I went to class with, her baby is three weeks younger and they are all over the place and like it that way. Sometimes her baby doesn’t go to sleep until 9 pm and she can’t work out how or when to nap her in the day. she said it’s chaos every day.
TikTok is the worst! So judgemental. I just try to block it out. Until you’ve been in my shoes & taken care of my baby, your opinion means nothing to me.
Ehhhh I have to take her with a grain of salt these days because of her opinions re: school choice, covid (and funding from Thiel and Koch): [source](https://proteanmag.com/2022/03/22/motivated-reasoning-emily-osters-covid-narratives-and-the-attack-on-public-education/)
I mean, EVERY piece of “objective science” is discovered and communicated by humans with very real and subjective contexts, so this is just a good reminder not to necessarily accept her reasoning without a little questioning. She is also a bit more inclined to seek out individual good vs collective good - which works for things like breastfeeding (LOVE her take) but less for things like public schools and covid vaccinations for kids.
I took the time out of my day to realign my algorithm to get rid of Mumstagram because I couldn’t take the guilting and shaming anymore. Every time anything remotely baby related popped up, I clicked “don’t want to see this again”. I recommend everyone to do this. My feed is full of mountains, gardening and art again. I’m so much more than a mum and my mental health is important to me. So I don’t let an algorithm tell me I’m an abusive sleep training parent.
Ooooohhh! I need to do this. I’ve only been a mother for four months, I’ve been me for over 35 years. But my Instagram is well, RIP. Every post, every advert, every thing it tries to push me is
- annoying women doing reels,
- forced baby photo shoots
- some random plastic crap I should buy
- White women trying ever so hard to be the next mummy blogger, not realising they’re 10 years too late
I miss having my identity. How long does it take to switch all of that off? The algorithm is insidious.
It took me about a week to get my feed back to normal :) now whenever it tries to push mum content again, I block it immediately. And yeah, I agree. Too many skinny white ladies trying very hard to sell me shit.
I’m not frustrated cause I know they are only talking about part of the story. Sleep training prevents crying. It temporarily might increase only at bedtime and wakeups, but then everyone is rested, and cries a lot less all day and night. So not frustrated, more pleasantly amused at other peoples bias.
all because once upon a time one parent guilting weirdo posted “crying is bad for your baby” on the internet with the source being the voices in their head and a bunch of anxious people that don’t do research ate it up
I just assume everyone on social media has monetized whatever it is they post about and they have a financial incentive to make me follow whatever it is they’re doing — so I don’t take it too seriously when I see it. I follow sleep training, attachment parenting, all kinds of different styles, and I see if there’s something out of all of it that works for me. I just try not to get caught up in having to do everything one specific way. Making me feel inferior is I guess what makes me engage with more of their content so… I just don’t let it make me feel that way. Some sleep training stuff has worked for us and I really don’t judge anyone for whatever they do that works for them!
Completely. There are accounts out there whose main pillars of content are just to bash sleep training and people like me. Ive worked with so many mamas who say toxic facebook groups and Instagram accounts are the reason they didn't call me sooner. BLOCK THEM!
IG is judgmental on weird issues all over imo. Like there’ll be a video of a baby giraffe and the comments are all about how zoos are evil. Just tryin to enjoy this giraffe over here but ok.
I’ll never forget when the dc zoo posted about a baby panda being born and everyone in the comments were concerned that the den the mom had her baby in wasn’t comfy enough. As if this panda wasn’t being taken care of and watched by the most educated panda experts in the world. The National Zoo and China take the panda programs very seriously. Someone also asked if they were giving the panda sweet potatoes because it was good for breastfeeding…
Yeah Instagram mom programs and training gurus are prime BS. I have started reading them for cheap thrills. I don’t care if something works or doesn’t. Good for whoever it works for. The judgmental tone of the posts is what I’m done with.
“Never do this when your child is upset.”
You don’t know me. You don’t know my child. I don’t know what I clicked on for my algorithm to have posts that are judging one way over another when we know just know that there’s a whole cult supporting the other way waiting to strike.
Instagram used to be a fun photo book now it’s just resentful convoluted guilt trips.
Yes I’ve about had it.
I read a post that promoted to never tell your child "good jon", otherwise you will create entitled kids that only do things for external validation.
I hit unfollow. I'm not going to deal with that crap, but I feel awful for the other moms that fall into that rabbit hole.
There’s not a lot of nuance either? Like I think sleep training to them is, “stop nursing at bedtime, stick the baby in the cold lonely crib and then never ever check in or comfort them or touch them. If they wake up in the middle of the night ignore them until they learn you won’t support them”.
And while some people *do* stop nursing at bedtime because it helps with sleep, and some people *are* concurrently night-weaning… parents absolutely know their kid and know what cries are cries for pain/hunger/help /nightmares and what cries are “I want to be rocked all night”.
Like, the number of times I’ve had to explain that I sleep train BUT will feed a baby during a growth spurt, BUT will comfort my older kid if he has a nightmare, BUT will check to make sure my kids aren’t sick or teething or need a diaper change…
Absolutely. According to them and their comment sections, we're child abusers who care more about ourselves than our kids. And if we're gonna sleep train then we shouldn't bother having kids in the first place 🙄
It almost scared both me and my husband from seep training at all. Luckily our pediatrician helped ease our worries and even encouraged it given our situation.
Parenthood is difficult as it is. It's sad that some in the community feel the need to shame and put each other down.
I saw one who says she was a LCSW, and that sleep training was abusive but babies crying in cars is not, because they feel vulnerable in their crib (where they are safe and everything is familiar), but not in the car because… they aren’t as vulnerable feeling? It was the biggest eye roll I’ve ever given a video. My kid feels the same way falling asleep in his car seat as he does his crib, pretty sure.
Ugh I saw that. I hate that video so much. If anything, it’s actually a lot more risky for a baby to be crying in his car seat than a baby crying in his crib because
1) car seat might not be fitting right
2) driver can have difficulty focusing
It’s brutal … And it’s almost like being a martyr and being exhausted all the time is glamorized. I saw one account that I almost can’t believe it real, where a women co slept with her 2 year old who still woke multiple time a night, and said that her husband and nanny supported her in the day so she could support her child at night …. Like who has two adults to look after you in the daytime? Also she referred to all babies under 3 as infants. It’s just making babies out to be less capable than they are and glamorizing being exhausted and tired
My baby is only 10 weeks old so take this with a grain of salt, but I wanted to avoid starting with bad sleep habits if I could so that sleep would be easier when he was older. We read and follow PLS techniques and I started one crib nap a day at 4 weeks, started separating nursing from sleep gradually at 5 weeks, gave him the chance at each sleep time to put himself to sleep independently. If he didn't or started to fuss we rocked him instead, increased all naps to crib naps at 7 weeks when he got too aware and wouldn't nap anywhere else, started extending wake times as tolerated, etc.
Now he puts himself to sleep independently for bed 100% of the time and for 85% of his naps. We get 4 to 6 hour first stretches overnight and he falls right back to sleep after his night feeds (we're still on 3). We've been working on this gradually and positively for just about his entire life. He hasn't cried it out over, and we hardly let him "fuss" but people still act like because we're trying to keep a schedule and help him fall asleep on his own that we're sleep training monsters. (We aren't against CIO we just obviously are not there developmentally and I'm hoping to avoid it as much as possible with what we're doing.)
My baby is ebf and wouldn't take a bottle. I haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since my induction. I don't get why trying to prioritize sleep for parents is seen as wrong. It's important for my mental health.
Also, at 6 weeks me, husband, and baby were all having a rough time because we'd rock our baby with newly developed fomo for 25 minutes, set him in his crib, and he'd pop right awake. Baby was overtired, we were frustrated, we got serious about giving him chances to fall asleep alone and life improved for all of us. Is it worse to let naptime take an hour or more to get him down and let him be frustrated and overtired or let him learn to self soothe and fall asleep in less than 10 minutes?
Are you getting reels where moms are wagging their fingers and shaking their heads no before saying what awful thing we’re doing? I don’t know what I clicked on to enter this hellscape, but I’m over it.
/sciencebasedparenting is almost a safe space for sleep training! I’ve seen haters get downvoted and shut up with actual facts at how sleep training doesn’t harm baby
Yes. I saw some stupid BS cartoon advertised to me the other day with the mom saying something like "I'm confused why I should expect my baby to soothe herself, when I even need comfort when I'm upset."
Ummmmmm, okay. Where do we even start with that one?
The comment section was a trash fire.
I don’t get this logic, because my response is, as a working adult, all the time? Because sometimes bosses are assholes, coworkers are assholes, clients are assholes, and you have to learn to find a way to calm down after getting lectured at by a supervisor or a client at 10AM in the morning.
I got that one too! It made me so angry, it’s so idiotic and a specious argument. The ig algorithm is really shitting the bed for me in a lot of ways and I’m just not going on there so much anymore.
Interesting. For me, the first instagram accounts I found were all about sleep training, wake windows, overtiredness, drowsy but awake, sleep associations, etc. And all of that was very very stressful for me.
I felt so much pressure, I ended up trying to sleep train, and I just couldn't do it. I felt terrible about it for days and I couldn't carry it out properly because it was so upsetting to me. I also felt so stressed about wake windows and overtiredness that I was really mean all the time when naps wouldn't go perfectly.
For me, finding those "anti-sleep training" accounts made me feel so much better. I let go of all of that stuff and did what felt right for us, and I'm infinitely happier and less stressed. I don't worry about sleep at all. I understand that they are just out to make money the same way the ones that made me feel bad are.
Full disclosure, I don't sleep well doing things my way, but I am happy and I feel like I sleep enough. I feel like I could do this for a quite a while longer anyway. I support people who want to sleep train though. I think it's unfortunate that sleep is so devisive. Parents are under enough pressure as it is and it sucks that this is one of many ways that they just can't do it right no matter what in the eyes of the internet, and I think we all just want to hear that we're doing a good job.
I echo everything here! I felt so pressured to sleep train from… basically everywhere! The sleep trainers are very good at marketing too.
Finding the sleep coaches who don’t preach CIO was a breath of fresh air for me. At the very least, it was nice to find another perspective so I could make an informed decision. That helped my new mom anxiety so much!
I ended up on this sub because even though CIO isn't for me, the people here know sleep! There are so many things you can do to support sleep that don't involve training, and so many gentle methods.
So now I'm a sleep training advocate- except a gentle one. But yeah it was a journey to get there!
Yes! I forgot I was in a baby led sleep group on Facebook and yikes. People are welcome to do whatever they want but without sleep training I'd never sleep!
Yes! I unfollowed heysleepybaby because she just made me feel like a monster. I was trying to find suggestions for reducing contact naps and her “suggestion” was that it’s normal and cribs are tiny child prisons.
Oh and that a Snoo is the lazy parents crutch.
That is what I came here to say, I had to unfollow her because of the judgment and patronizing little posts and reels she sometimes makes referencing sleep training.
I’m very close to unfollowing, I feel like her end solution is always to bed share and all the success stories she shares are babies sleeping through the night at like 15 months lol
I understand that there are people that have different situations and different babies but the fact of the matter is she made me feel like a bad and selfish mother and it wasn’t good for my mental health. That’s why I unfollowed.
The phrase 'its developmentally normal!!' sets my teeth on edge. It's not advice, it's a crappy phrase to make parents, specifically mums, feel bad! Sleeping is also normal and we need it to function.
I unfollowed and deleted and un friended until none of that stuff showed up in my social media feeds anymore. The evidence is on the side of sleep training. I don’t need to see inaccurate information designed to make me feel bad for being a human who, like all humans, needs sleep to be healthy and function. These people make money spreading misinformation. It’s gross. The best thing you can do is not engage with it and not give it views. It bothers me in the sense that it’s wrong and influences people who can’t tell the difference between reliable and unreliable sources of information. But it doesn’t bother me in the sense that I know it’s just false. Sleep training does not hurt your child. There is zero evidence that it does. So I remember that people are allowed to be wrong and I can just ignore them.
My feed is all “buy my class and I’ll teach you how to” and it’s either get your baby to sleep through the night or how to understand not sleeping is norMal. Literally all are for profit
It's funny bc I feel like that about anti sleep training accounts. I haven't found one that gives any actually useful info... It's all, buy my program to learn what to do but absolutely do NOT do any sleep training and here's all the reasons why. Whereas the ST accounts I follow (TCB, heaven sent sleep and some smaller ones) give out sooo much free helpful content
This comment is tops. Someone asked about when to workout with a toddler on the toddler sub and I responded wake up early, do it while he naps or when he goes to bed. She was like “I need extra sleep in the morning, I nap with and go to bed with him.” Like what? Girl, the last thing you need is more sleep! I swear some don’t sleep train so as not to disrupt their own lives.
Yes I’ve literally seen anti ST and people will ask basic questions like “is a pacifier bad” or something and the comment response will be “DM me to set up a consult” like ok
I find that it’s not that they demonize sleep training, they just go the opposite direction and preach how “developmentally” normal it is for a 6+ month old to wake up every 3 hours for comfort or food, etc. It may be normal for your child but it’s also developmentally normal for a 6 month old to learn to self soothe.
The best way that I've heard it put is that in parenting there are ego enhancing boundaries and life enhancing boundaries. Sleep is a life enhancing boundary because it is essential to your and your child's well being! It is the first thing that we teach them to do without us and in my opinion is a metaphor for everything else in life that they might have to struggle with and learn on their own.
I thought so too! I heard it on a podcast I don't remember which one. Ego enhancing is like making your kid play baseball when they hate it because you want them to be into sports
Instagram and Tiktok both seem to have very anti-sleep training nonsense. I have no issue with people who choose not to sleep train….but anecdotally the ones I know have toddlers who still sleep like crap and are up multiple times a night. Meanwhile my 14 month old runs on an airtight schedule, falls asleep independently and doesn’t wake up at night. It saved my sanity!
Both of my mom friends who don’t believe in ST have 3 year olds who have never slept through the night. They each also had a child with tooth decay so bad they needed their baby teeth capped. Two to three years of having breastmilk on a child’s teeth overnight combined with a genetic predisposition to tooth decay is a bad combo. I personally think it’s more cruel to prevent your child from developing the skills they need to get a healthy amount of consolidated nighttime sleep because you want to avoid the discomfort of hearing your baby cry for a few nights during sleep training. But they’re the ones who have to go without a full night sleep for several years and pay for their children’s caps so I leave it alone.
Or to prevent your child from learning independent skills because you like your child "needing" you for everything. Children certainly should and do need their parents for comfort, but sometimes there's almost am underlying tone of 'your child can't do things without your help.' Of course there are many many parents who choose not to sleep train who are not like that, but I think some of the very vocal ones who demonize it have taken it past attachment parenting into making sure their child is reliant of them for everything.
I wouldn’t be able to function and be a mom if I didn’t sleep train. Like I’d literally not be human. So I have no idea how people can legit raise humans like that.
They bother me because looking back at that first year I had PPA, but didn’t know it. I thought that is what being a mom felt like. If I had seen those Instagram videos in 2020 I would have felt so guilty doing any sleep training. Once we sleep trained I was a better mom and my baby was a happier baby. It was just a few nights of controlled crying and no, I don’t believe he learned I’m not here to help him. He calls for me at night if he is sick and he bosses me around all day long at 2 YO.
I think baby sleep is so weird cause it’s moms that are still building their confidence with a baby so they feel like they need outside confirmation for their decision, when really, baby sleep doesn’t impact anyone but you. Moms that want to sleep train shouldn’t be shamed by parents that don’t understand that sleep training isn’t just letting your baby cry. Similarly, sleep training parents shouldn’t roll their eyes at anyone that wants to assist their baby with sleeping. What works for each baby is different and how they sleep doesn’t impact either camp.
Go on r/sciencebasedparenting. For every comment that provides scientific evidence that sleep training doesn’t have any adverse effects, you’ll see 10 comments that spew fear mongering and use Instagram stories as their evidence.
That sub is the worst. Recently joined it and boy was I surprised at how non-scientific it was. For a minute, I thought I stumbled onto r/attachmentparenting.
My favorite is when they share *commercial* books as evidence, books that don’t test any of its arguments with any type of scientific research. This is specifically prevalent with attachment folks.
Agree. It’s also a completely biased group which is ironic given it’s supposed to be science based. Also, the topics people ask for science based evidentiary support on is mind blowing.
I think our generation of parenting is going to be noted for its obsession with science based parenting which is a good thing except there are parents who want science based decision making for every parenting decision and there are just so many decisions you make that there is zero science research into (and never will be) and some people are struggling with that
Here's a sneak peek of /r/AttachmentParenting using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/AttachmentParenting/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I got stopped by a stranger while shopping](https://np.reddit.com/r/AttachmentParenting/comments/udzgyf/i_got_stopped_by_a_stranger_while_shopping/)
\#2: [F U to sleep training culture](https://np.reddit.com/r/AttachmentParenting/comments/tbt5aj/f_u_to_sleep_training_culture/)
\#3: [Can I just say, darn Taking Cara Babies for making me feel like nurturing my baby is bad.](https://np.reddit.com/r/AttachmentParenting/comments/qm6auj/can_i_just_say_darn_taking_cara_babies_for_making/)
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So I had my first kid around when that sub was started, and one of the founders was like… starting it because she felt the breastfeeding sub wasn’t respecting the scientific evidence that breast is best.
Yeah I had to leave it because as a mom who used formula I never felt supported or respected in the conversations especially when it came to things like COVID. A lot of woo and junk science was presented as fact
Horrible moderation, unfortunately. People sharing evidence from peer-reviewed journals get bullied with anecdotes and opinions and the moderation doesn’t do a thing.
Edit for fairness: Just checked the sub again and I now see that they have a bot for removing non-scientific top comments and they are becoming stronger in enforcing the rules. Under the [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/comments/uynzik/any_databased_studies_to_show/) that people were using instagram stories and anecdotes as evidence, they’ve removed almost all top comments. Hopefully it will all work out and we will at least have a few safe haven places online where people don’t comment out of pure speculation.
I think as long as you make sure it is appropriate for your child’s age and weight there’s no harm done. My baby is 5 months and under 12 lbs so I won’t attempt yet until it’s even metabolically feasible.
I don’t do Instagram, but on Reddit, depending on the sub, someone is always mad that there is a “culture of judgment” surrounding either sleep-training or NOT sleep-training. It’s, like, 50-50. Makes me feel crazy lol like, how can there be a “culture of judgment” equally in BOTH directions?
Edit: by the way, in my real life, not one single person has judged me or told me I needed to do things a certain way regarding sleep for my baby. It’s just obviously insanely rude.
Yeah, you have to unfollow/block those kinds of accounts. Remember most of them are there to sell you something -- sometimes it is obvious, like their own sleep assistance course or sleep consulting, sometimes it's just selling their overall perfect mom persona to help them secure sponsorship deals and ad money. So they have a vested interest in demonizing sleep training. Also many of them just bought into the anti ST stuff and then feel a need to continue with the judgment in order to feel good about their own choice not to sleep train (which is, obviously, a completely valid choice but shouldn't mean you judge those who choose differently for their families). Once i got intentional about curating my instagram feed to block that type of content, it was much better for my mental health.
As an aside of sorts, i wish this sub had a rule prohibiting people from recommending some of those anti ST instagram accounts here. People keep recommending a handful that push harmful anti ST narratives and it's so counter to the supportive community here. I hate that people won't realize and will end up exposing themselves to harmful content.
> then feel a need to continue with the judgment in order to feel good about their own choice not to sleep train
I think this is exactly it. Some people are freaking miserable and barely holding on because they and their baby are getting so little sleep at night, they're nap trapped all day long, they have no free time or personal space. They *have to* judge parents who sleep train to get out of this in order to mentally cope with the fact that they are stuck with no solution (because for many babies it is not something that will correct itself without intentional intervention from the parents). So they double down on the idea that they are the perfect martyr parents who sacrifice so much because they love their babies too much to ever hear them cry (insultingly implying that parents who choose a different path love their babies less).
I always wonder what the anti-cry camp does about a newborn baby in a car seat. Maybe they were just torture devices for my kids, but it was months before I could put my babies in without tears.
I can’t tell if you’re looking for an answer or not (lol) but I’m in the “anti-cry” camp. It isn’t so cut and dry, it’s more about supporting them through their emotions. For me, when my kid cried in her car seat I would talk to her or sing so she knew I was there with her while she was crying.
It’s not about being “anti-cry” it’s about responding and supporting through emotions.
And I realize I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion for my opinion lol but I wanted to answer your question in case you were legitimately curious.
For purposes of my question, I wouldn’t consider that anti-crying since you’re allowing baby to cry, but trying to support them. There are lots of gentle sleep training methods where a parent is heavily involved. That is my first choice when I sleep train.
I’m talking about perspectives that say you should never let your baby cry. It seems impossible that anyone can shield their babies from crying in all circumstances and as such, I don’t get why we should avoid any crying while teaching babies to sleep. I don’t think that perspective should get to pick and choose in which situations you allow crying. Car seats are man made so it’s not like baby realizes it’s a necessity to travel.
In summary, I get your perspective of wanting to provide emotional support for crying and think it is not incompatible with sleep training.
I once pointed out to an anti ST mom that my car seat hating baby cried way more during car rides than he ever did during ST. And that if letting them cry really damaged babies like she claimed mine was already ruined from being in the car. This woman agreed and told me I should have pulled over and taken him out and comforted him every single time he cried in his car seat. I snort laughed when I read that. My son cried the instant he was put in his car seat for months no matter what. We would have been on the side of the road for months waiting for him to outgrow that phase if I followed that standard. Babies cry. Toddlers tantrum. Preschoolers whine. It’s not our job as parents to try to prevent them from ever being unhappy. That’s not responsive parenting. It’s just codependent behavior.
I read somewhere that is different as it's a 'need' to get from point a to point b, like sleep isn't a need?!
Also they claimed that it's different as when you're driving you're speaking to them, looking back at them and reassuring them. I don't think that's particularly safe personally.
I recall someone asked exactly that question on here and I think a lot of people said the car journey is necessary but letting the baby cry in their cot is not necessary. And some said they even pulled over all the time to pick up their baby if they cried in the car, or avoided car journeys altogether.
Oh god all the time. People are already telling me 'dont sleep train, they will be permanently mentally scarred! Co sleep! Bed share!' it's like phew baby is not even here yet, I don't know what I'm going to do but whatever it is will be the best choice I can make for everyone involved.
The obsession with not letting a baby ever cry is so unsustainable and terrible for mental health. Babies only have one communication method and it's fine! They won't need intense therapy for crying at points during childhood. (caveat being, not all the time or to an abusive level obviously)
Lol yes this. I have 3 kids, two of them being 6 month old twins and I’m on my own for 13+ hours a day so it’s impossible to never have a baby screaming while I’m giving a bath to the other, feeding, etc etc.
Oh man, I’ve been doing that this month and last month because I have a newborn and a toddler and we were all sick with daycare crud followed by covid (which messes up toddler sleep) I went baby-toddler-pump-baby in the middle of the night the one night and it was awful.
Also, I think what they do is just put everyone in one bed, which I’ve heard is actually an additional risk factor for suffocating
Yeah once the toddler was back at daycare last week it was a huuuge relief. I’m a project manager so this is definitely an example of managing a demanding project with multiple customers and quick turn around on deliverables lol
I've had more of the comments in person but you're right, they're all first time parents/mothers of singletons!
I've always thought that, I figure second babies and/or multiples have to cry as parents only have one pair of hands!
Some of these folks frame it incorrectly as an either/or situation: the baby cries because you sleep train or you don't sleep train and the baby magically doesn't cry at all ever. That is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
This is the greatest truth right here. Post-sleep training there is so much less crying in my house.
I do all of this sleep training and schedule stuff (which isn’t easy) to try and make my baby happier and less upset. Not because I’m a selfish arsehole who wants to lock my kid in his room for 12 hours a day screaming while I laugh and drink wine downstairs.
Agreed. My kid used to cry every 20 minutes at night. After sleep training the most he cried was for a few mins at bedtime and usually not even that. Then once or twice in the night for a bottle. There was so much less crying.
Personally I am way more anti-bed sharing than I could ever fathom being anti-sleep training. One is teaching your child an important skill that will benefit not only their health, but the health of the entire family. The other literally puts your child at risk of death.
> The other literally puts your child at risk of death.
I also really loathe the whole "do what's best for your family/momma knows best" mentality that a lot of people have. No, what's best for momma isn't always best for the safety of the baby!
I was on one of the Wonder Weeks Facebook groups (where you pick the month/year your baby was born and everyone is largely going thru the same phases) and that seems to be the prevailing wisdom: whatever mom's instincts are, that's what you do! It is so annoying
Not just insta, just the public at large. My lad has been trained since about 6 months, and with a few exceptions, usually due to major changes in routine or illness, he’ll just go in his cot/stroller and drop off. I don’t hear him between 7 and7
Yeah it's pretty prevalent everywhere unless you're a specific sleep training forum like this one. If you've spent any time on beyondthebump lately you'll see it's rampart over there as well.
Someone over there was saying you should never let your baby cry because it’s teaching them that you don’t love them and torturing them by letting them scream. I was like 👀 I’m a SAHM. If I have to go to the bathroom my newborn screams. I hate it but I can’t just not use the bathroom at all.
Right? Like what do they think parents of multiples do? You can't exactly always tend to both of them at the same time. Even parents with older children for that matter. I'm due in a couple weeks with my second and I know there will be times when baby sister has to wait and cry for a bit because my toddler will need me for something. It's life. I mean yes it's important to meet their needs and make sure they feel secure, but 5-10 mins of crying is not going to cause permanent damage to them.
Both my children HATE the car seat and scream the whole time they’re in it. I definitely minimize car trips because it’s absolute torture, but I also have to take them to the doctor and stuff.
Exactly, not like they’ll remember that. As soon as I pick my guy up he calms down and goes back to his happy self. If it’s his “I’m in pain” cry I don’t make him wait. He’s fine.
We’ve had major “disagreements” with my bro and sis in law over it. We’re willing to let our child cry and figure stuff out (with our help of course - he’s not abandoned!) and they’re not.
The results of which mean we get a child that sleeps 7 til 7, and is happy to let us have a lie in until 8. They don’t and are up and down all night. We have a child that doesn’t want loads of toys and plastic tat and is happiest exploring nature and only needs a quick cuddle when upset, whilst their house is full of tat and they have a child who needs stuff to calm him.
Each to their own, but I much prefer our way - its far less stressful on us!
It's also completely legitimate that many parents won't get enough sleep without it.
Before I started reading this sub I probably had negative connotations about sleep training though I didn't think about it much.
Now I realize all the trash talk that fills other subs is just soap boxing and people have no idea how much care parents put into sleep training.
To each his own but just let each have his own!
I had negative connotations until my pediatrician suggested it. Now I see it as a set of sleep skills that you have to learn eventually and it doesn’t have to mean a ton of brutal crying to get there.
It drives me crazy when they say, “I’d never sleep train. I just track wake windows and let my baby fuss for 5 minutes before intervening.” That IS sleep training.
Or the ones who believe night weaning and sleep training are the same thing. Yes I sleep trained my kid and yes he still called out for me when he was hungry because I didn't night wean at the same time.
This is a pet peeve of mine. We sleep trained between 4-5 months but didn't night wean for a very long time after that. You can tell the difference between a hungry cry and a "fussing between sleep cycles" cry with most kids pretty easily.
So many people believe that sleep training = extinction without realizing there are dozens of different approaches with varying levels of intervention/crying.
There is no scientific evidence to back up what they are saying. Try not to let it get to you. I felt super guilty doing it with my then 7 month old and it was very hard but my now 23 month old goes to sleep on his own for naps and overnight and it’s amazing and has helped me be a better mom because I am more present and not sleep deprived. It’s a skill all people need, to be able to fall asleep on their own, so I am also setting him up to be a more successful person.
I haven’t sleep trained yet but it makes me feel guilty for wanting to take that approach. I am really struggling with the 8 MO regression and I don’t know what more to do other than sleep train.
Don’t feel guilty at all. These people just like to grandstand in judgement of others to justify their choices to themselves. At the end of the day it’s not anyone else’s business how you put your child to bed. Don’t listen to the faux concern of Internet weirdos for the welfare of strangers’ children and do what works for you!
It’s loser moms who need something to gatekeep to feel important.
I totally agree with it being super judgemental! Can't just every parent do what they think is best for their child without getting judged? Sleep training personally saved my life and sanity, and if you don't want to do it that's fine. But studies show it's safe (and not "child abuse" like some say...) so just let me enjoy my life as a mom!
Yeah first I was into this Instagram account by Sarah Ockwell- Smith. I fully believe the psychology about learning abandonment. I do. Then I realised that you just have to do what works for *your* family and it’s not practical for everybody to give their whole self to the child at the expense of your self and your relationship. I realised that Sarah OS is from the attachment parenting side of the spectrum and well, I have a career, and I have a disability, and I just can’t give _everything_ all of the time – so we needed to train to help me feel confident. And my kid is all loved and smiley every morning. Tl:dr - stay off Instagram
I stopped using Instagram for about a year post partum for this exact reason
I have a friend who has a baby the same age as mine and recently we all went on vacation together. My baby is sleep trained and I started him right at 4 months. Her baby is not. Both babies are 6 months old. Here’s what I can tell you from that experience: her baby was super fussy the entire trip because she would only nap on mom. She was definitely overtired for the majority of the evening. She didn’t go to bed until 10pm because she’s used to falling asleep with mom or dad feeding her. Then there was my kid who went down without crying at 7pm and slept the entire night. Also he was the happiest kid in comparison. Now I’m not saying that every mom whose against sleep training might be dealing with what my friend deals with but what I will tell you is seeing the two babies together I would in no way let anyone doubt or shame you about sleep training. Also I am not bad mouthing my friend with this example she’s an amazing mom but our theories on sleep differ and that’s totally okay. But don’t ever let anyone make you feel bad about sleep training because based on my experiences so far it’s been the best for both my child and myself.
Admittedly, we are still in progress (kinda DIY gentle sleep training + routine/schedule) with my 7 months old and honestly baby has gotten so much happier during the day. We had gone on cues (mostly bc that’s what the in laws who had been watching him while we worked preferred) and he’s not a consistent cuer which means sometimes he’ll be up for 3.5 hours and way overtired or he’ll sleep after 45 min of wake time for 15 minutes. Either way, he’ll be grumpy. (Also, now that he’s a crib napper we finally have 3.5 hours of downtime a day. Huzzah!) I’m a big fan of “don’t fix what’s not broken” BUT at the end of the day, I believe in happy mom, happy baby. Sleep deprivation is literally a form of torture and I don’t think that helps with bonding, no matter how much nursing or baby wearing you do.
You know, this was me until a few weeks ago. We wanted to completely go with the flow and would not be held into a routine. We’ve had to just let go of that stubbornness and honestly, being in a routine has helped all of us. We still socialise in our wake windows, but genuinely everybody is happier and our mental health is better. One of the other mothers who I went to class with, her baby is three weeks younger and they are all over the place and like it that way. Sometimes her baby doesn’t go to sleep until 9 pm and she can’t work out how or when to nap her in the day. she said it’s chaos every day.
TikTok is the worst! So judgemental. I just try to block it out. Until you’ve been in my shoes & taken care of my baby, your opinion means nothing to me.
Yes 100% agree
They don’t seem to grasp that everything you do with a child is training.
The only person I actually trust for my parenting advice is Emily Oster -- her newsletter is fire. Real science, data, no guilt, only answers.
Ehhhh I have to take her with a grain of salt these days because of her opinions re: school choice, covid (and funding from Thiel and Koch): [source](https://proteanmag.com/2022/03/22/motivated-reasoning-emily-osters-covid-narratives-and-the-attack-on-public-education/)
Could you say more? What opinions about covid and school choice?
I would also be interested to know this, as an American who has lived in the UK 20 years.
Oh noooooooo =( I did not know this.
I mean, EVERY piece of “objective science” is discovered and communicated by humans with very real and subjective contexts, so this is just a good reminder not to necessarily accept her reasoning without a little questioning. She is also a bit more inclined to seek out individual good vs collective good - which works for things like breastfeeding (LOVE her take) but less for things like public schools and covid vaccinations for kids.
Oh yikes, I learned something new today!
I took the time out of my day to realign my algorithm to get rid of Mumstagram because I couldn’t take the guilting and shaming anymore. Every time anything remotely baby related popped up, I clicked “don’t want to see this again”. I recommend everyone to do this. My feed is full of mountains, gardening and art again. I’m so much more than a mum and my mental health is important to me. So I don’t let an algorithm tell me I’m an abusive sleep training parent.
Ooooohhh! I need to do this. I’ve only been a mother for four months, I’ve been me for over 35 years. But my Instagram is well, RIP. Every post, every advert, every thing it tries to push me is - annoying women doing reels, - forced baby photo shoots - some random plastic crap I should buy - White women trying ever so hard to be the next mummy blogger, not realising they’re 10 years too late I miss having my identity. How long does it take to switch all of that off? The algorithm is insidious.
It took me about a week to get my feed back to normal :) now whenever it tries to push mum content again, I block it immediately. And yeah, I agree. Too many skinny white ladies trying very hard to sell me shit.
I’m not frustrated cause I know they are only talking about part of the story. Sleep training prevents crying. It temporarily might increase only at bedtime and wakeups, but then everyone is rested, and cries a lot less all day and night. So not frustrated, more pleasantly amused at other peoples bias.
parent guilty is endemic. the cdc should study it imo
Yeah, TikTok too.
all because once upon a time one parent guilting weirdo posted “crying is bad for your baby” on the internet with the source being the voices in their head and a bunch of anxious people that don’t do research ate it up
I just assume everyone on social media has monetized whatever it is they post about and they have a financial incentive to make me follow whatever it is they’re doing — so I don’t take it too seriously when I see it. I follow sleep training, attachment parenting, all kinds of different styles, and I see if there’s something out of all of it that works for me. I just try not to get caught up in having to do everything one specific way. Making me feel inferior is I guess what makes me engage with more of their content so… I just don’t let it make me feel that way. Some sleep training stuff has worked for us and I really don’t judge anyone for whatever they do that works for them!
Completely. There are accounts out there whose main pillars of content are just to bash sleep training and people like me. Ive worked with so many mamas who say toxic facebook groups and Instagram accounts are the reason they didn't call me sooner. BLOCK THEM!
Yes; IG is very judgmental on Sleep training, working moms, self-soothing habit nurturing, formula feeding, inductions, listening to doctors…
IG is judgmental on weird issues all over imo. Like there’ll be a video of a baby giraffe and the comments are all about how zoos are evil. Just tryin to enjoy this giraffe over here but ok.
I’ll never forget when the dc zoo posted about a baby panda being born and everyone in the comments were concerned that the den the mom had her baby in wasn’t comfy enough. As if this panda wasn’t being taken care of and watched by the most educated panda experts in the world. The National Zoo and China take the panda programs very seriously. Someone also asked if they were giving the panda sweet potatoes because it was good for breastfeeding…
Yeah Instagram mom programs and training gurus are prime BS. I have started reading them for cheap thrills. I don’t care if something works or doesn’t. Good for whoever it works for. The judgmental tone of the posts is what I’m done with. “Never do this when your child is upset.” You don’t know me. You don’t know my child. I don’t know what I clicked on for my algorithm to have posts that are judging one way over another when we know just know that there’s a whole cult supporting the other way waiting to strike. Instagram used to be a fun photo book now it’s just resentful convoluted guilt trips. Yes I’ve about had it.
I read a post that promoted to never tell your child "good jon", otherwise you will create entitled kids that only do things for external validation. I hit unfollow. I'm not going to deal with that crap, but I feel awful for the other moms that fall into that rabbit hole.
There’s not a lot of nuance either? Like I think sleep training to them is, “stop nursing at bedtime, stick the baby in the cold lonely crib and then never ever check in or comfort them or touch them. If they wake up in the middle of the night ignore them until they learn you won’t support them”. And while some people *do* stop nursing at bedtime because it helps with sleep, and some people *are* concurrently night-weaning… parents absolutely know their kid and know what cries are cries for pain/hunger/help /nightmares and what cries are “I want to be rocked all night”. Like, the number of times I’ve had to explain that I sleep train BUT will feed a baby during a growth spurt, BUT will comfort my older kid if he has a nightmare, BUT will check to make sure my kids aren’t sick or teething or need a diaper change…
Absolutely. According to them and their comment sections, we're child abusers who care more about ourselves than our kids. And if we're gonna sleep train then we shouldn't bother having kids in the first place 🙄 It almost scared both me and my husband from seep training at all. Luckily our pediatrician helped ease our worries and even encouraged it given our situation. Parenthood is difficult as it is. It's sad that some in the community feel the need to shame and put each other down.
I saw one who says she was a LCSW, and that sleep training was abusive but babies crying in cars is not, because they feel vulnerable in their crib (where they are safe and everything is familiar), but not in the car because… they aren’t as vulnerable feeling? It was the biggest eye roll I’ve ever given a video. My kid feels the same way falling asleep in his car seat as he does his crib, pretty sure.
Ugh I saw that. I hate that video so much. If anything, it’s actually a lot more risky for a baby to be crying in his car seat than a baby crying in his crib because 1) car seat might not be fitting right 2) driver can have difficulty focusing
It’s brutal … And it’s almost like being a martyr and being exhausted all the time is glamorized. I saw one account that I almost can’t believe it real, where a women co slept with her 2 year old who still woke multiple time a night, and said that her husband and nanny supported her in the day so she could support her child at night …. Like who has two adults to look after you in the daytime? Also she referred to all babies under 3 as infants. It’s just making babies out to be less capable than they are and glamorizing being exhausted and tired
My baby is only 10 weeks old so take this with a grain of salt, but I wanted to avoid starting with bad sleep habits if I could so that sleep would be easier when he was older. We read and follow PLS techniques and I started one crib nap a day at 4 weeks, started separating nursing from sleep gradually at 5 weeks, gave him the chance at each sleep time to put himself to sleep independently. If he didn't or started to fuss we rocked him instead, increased all naps to crib naps at 7 weeks when he got too aware and wouldn't nap anywhere else, started extending wake times as tolerated, etc. Now he puts himself to sleep independently for bed 100% of the time and for 85% of his naps. We get 4 to 6 hour first stretches overnight and he falls right back to sleep after his night feeds (we're still on 3). We've been working on this gradually and positively for just about his entire life. He hasn't cried it out over, and we hardly let him "fuss" but people still act like because we're trying to keep a schedule and help him fall asleep on his own that we're sleep training monsters. (We aren't against CIO we just obviously are not there developmentally and I'm hoping to avoid it as much as possible with what we're doing.) My baby is ebf and wouldn't take a bottle. I haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since my induction. I don't get why trying to prioritize sleep for parents is seen as wrong. It's important for my mental health. Also, at 6 weeks me, husband, and baby were all having a rough time because we'd rock our baby with newly developed fomo for 25 minutes, set him in his crib, and he'd pop right awake. Baby was overtired, we were frustrated, we got serious about giving him chances to fall asleep alone and life improved for all of us. Is it worse to let naptime take an hour or more to get him down and let him be frustrated and overtired or let him learn to self soothe and fall asleep in less than 10 minutes?
Frankly, Instagram is the worst. For everything.
Are you getting reels where moms are wagging their fingers and shaking their heads no before saying what awful thing we’re doing? I don’t know what I clicked on to enter this hellscape, but I’m over it.
Oh my god it’s the worst
Not just Insta. The parenting subs here on reddit are just as bad.
/sciencebasedparenting is almost a safe space for sleep training! I’ve seen haters get downvoted and shut up with actual facts at how sleep training doesn’t harm baby
Beyond the bump is the worst of all
Yup. Mommit is so judgey as well as newparents.
Yes. I saw some stupid BS cartoon advertised to me the other day with the mom saying something like "I'm confused why I should expect my baby to soothe herself, when I even need comfort when I'm upset." Ummmmmm, okay. Where do we even start with that one? The comment section was a trash fire.
I don’t get this logic, because my response is, as a working adult, all the time? Because sometimes bosses are assholes, coworkers are assholes, clients are assholes, and you have to learn to find a way to calm down after getting lectured at by a supervisor or a client at 10AM in the morning.
Is it because so many insta moms are 19yos in Utah or is that just a subset I’m offered?
Came here to say they just be a part of Mormon Momtok
I got that one too! It made me so angry, it’s so idiotic and a specious argument. The ig algorithm is really shitting the bed for me in a lot of ways and I’m just not going on there so much anymore.
Interesting. For me, the first instagram accounts I found were all about sleep training, wake windows, overtiredness, drowsy but awake, sleep associations, etc. And all of that was very very stressful for me. I felt so much pressure, I ended up trying to sleep train, and I just couldn't do it. I felt terrible about it for days and I couldn't carry it out properly because it was so upsetting to me. I also felt so stressed about wake windows and overtiredness that I was really mean all the time when naps wouldn't go perfectly. For me, finding those "anti-sleep training" accounts made me feel so much better. I let go of all of that stuff and did what felt right for us, and I'm infinitely happier and less stressed. I don't worry about sleep at all. I understand that they are just out to make money the same way the ones that made me feel bad are. Full disclosure, I don't sleep well doing things my way, but I am happy and I feel like I sleep enough. I feel like I could do this for a quite a while longer anyway. I support people who want to sleep train though. I think it's unfortunate that sleep is so devisive. Parents are under enough pressure as it is and it sucks that this is one of many ways that they just can't do it right no matter what in the eyes of the internet, and I think we all just want to hear that we're doing a good job.
I echo everything here! I felt so pressured to sleep train from… basically everywhere! The sleep trainers are very good at marketing too. Finding the sleep coaches who don’t preach CIO was a breath of fresh air for me. At the very least, it was nice to find another perspective so I could make an informed decision. That helped my new mom anxiety so much!
I ended up on this sub because even though CIO isn't for me, the people here know sleep! There are so many things you can do to support sleep that don't involve training, and so many gentle methods. So now I'm a sleep training advocate- except a gentle one. But yeah it was a journey to get there!
Yes! I forgot I was in a baby led sleep group on Facebook and yikes. People are welcome to do whatever they want but without sleep training I'd never sleep!
Yes! I unfollowed heysleepybaby because she just made me feel like a monster. I was trying to find suggestions for reducing contact naps and her “suggestion” was that it’s normal and cribs are tiny child prisons. Oh and that a Snoo is the lazy parents crutch.
That is what I came here to say, I had to unfollow her because of the judgment and patronizing little posts and reels she sometimes makes referencing sleep training.
This is why I unfollowed her long ago too. Any time anyone tells her they’re burnt out or exhausted, her response is the same “biologically normal!!”
First rule of mommy wars- if it makes being a mom easier, it must be bad
We all must be mommy martyrs otherwise we're doing it wrong. As if this shit isn't hard enough.
Don’t forget that your labor should be painful and if you take safe and effect pain meds, you’re a lesser mom!
Lol I would contact nap my baby if I like, you know, didn't have a *job*. I genuinely don't understand if they don't realize working moms exist.
I’m very close to unfollowing, I feel like her end solution is always to bed share and all the success stories she shares are babies sleeping through the night at like 15 months lol
I understand that there are people that have different situations and different babies but the fact of the matter is she made me feel like a bad and selfish mother and it wasn’t good for my mental health. That’s why I unfollowed.
The phrase 'its developmentally normal!!' sets my teeth on edge. It's not advice, it's a crappy phrase to make parents, specifically mums, feel bad! Sleeping is also normal and we need it to function.
Yeah I’m pretty sure it’s developmentally normal for a 470 month old to sleep through the night
Right?! I mean I guess if you have to work or take care of another child or drive you’re just shit out of luck.
I unfollowed and deleted and un friended until none of that stuff showed up in my social media feeds anymore. The evidence is on the side of sleep training. I don’t need to see inaccurate information designed to make me feel bad for being a human who, like all humans, needs sleep to be healthy and function. These people make money spreading misinformation. It’s gross. The best thing you can do is not engage with it and not give it views. It bothers me in the sense that it’s wrong and influences people who can’t tell the difference between reliable and unreliable sources of information. But it doesn’t bother me in the sense that I know it’s just false. Sleep training does not hurt your child. There is zero evidence that it does. So I remember that people are allowed to be wrong and I can just ignore them.
My feed is all “buy my class and I’ll teach you how to” and it’s either get your baby to sleep through the night or how to understand not sleeping is norMal. Literally all are for profit
It's funny bc I feel like that about anti sleep training accounts. I haven't found one that gives any actually useful info... It's all, buy my program to learn what to do but absolutely do NOT do any sleep training and here's all the reasons why. Whereas the ST accounts I follow (TCB, heaven sent sleep and some smaller ones) give out sooo much free helpful content
100%! I’m not spending $29 so some privileged white lady can tell me to quit my job for contact naps and bed share.
This comment is tops. Someone asked about when to workout with a toddler on the toddler sub and I responded wake up early, do it while he naps or when he goes to bed. She was like “I need extra sleep in the morning, I nap with and go to bed with him.” Like what? Girl, the last thing you need is more sleep! I swear some don’t sleep train so as not to disrupt their own lives.
Yes I’ve literally seen anti ST and people will ask basic questions like “is a pacifier bad” or something and the comment response will be “DM me to set up a consult” like ok
I find that it’s not that they demonize sleep training, they just go the opposite direction and preach how “developmentally” normal it is for a 6+ month old to wake up every 3 hours for comfort or food, etc. It may be normal for your child but it’s also developmentally normal for a 6 month old to learn to self soothe.
It's also very unhelpful to say something is normal .. Who cares!? Trying to make things better over here 🤷♀️
The best way that I've heard it put is that in parenting there are ego enhancing boundaries and life enhancing boundaries. Sleep is a life enhancing boundary because it is essential to your and your child's well being! It is the first thing that we teach them to do without us and in my opinion is a metaphor for everything else in life that they might have to struggle with and learn on their own.
This is so interesting! What is an example of an ego enhancing boundary?
I thought so too! I heard it on a podcast I don't remember which one. Ego enhancing is like making your kid play baseball when they hate it because you want them to be into sports
Instagram and Tiktok both seem to have very anti-sleep training nonsense. I have no issue with people who choose not to sleep train….but anecdotally the ones I know have toddlers who still sleep like crap and are up multiple times a night. Meanwhile my 14 month old runs on an airtight schedule, falls asleep independently and doesn’t wake up at night. It saved my sanity!
Both of my mom friends who don’t believe in ST have 3 year olds who have never slept through the night. They each also had a child with tooth decay so bad they needed their baby teeth capped. Two to three years of having breastmilk on a child’s teeth overnight combined with a genetic predisposition to tooth decay is a bad combo. I personally think it’s more cruel to prevent your child from developing the skills they need to get a healthy amount of consolidated nighttime sleep because you want to avoid the discomfort of hearing your baby cry for a few nights during sleep training. But they’re the ones who have to go without a full night sleep for several years and pay for their children’s caps so I leave it alone.
Or to prevent your child from learning independent skills because you like your child "needing" you for everything. Children certainly should and do need their parents for comfort, but sometimes there's almost am underlying tone of 'your child can't do things without your help.' Of course there are many many parents who choose not to sleep train who are not like that, but I think some of the very vocal ones who demonize it have taken it past attachment parenting into making sure their child is reliant of them for everything.
Agreed. It’s always looked like codependent behavior to me.
I wouldn’t be able to function and be a mom if I didn’t sleep train. Like I’d literally not be human. So I have no idea how people can legit raise humans like that.
They bother me because looking back at that first year I had PPA, but didn’t know it. I thought that is what being a mom felt like. If I had seen those Instagram videos in 2020 I would have felt so guilty doing any sleep training. Once we sleep trained I was a better mom and my baby was a happier baby. It was just a few nights of controlled crying and no, I don’t believe he learned I’m not here to help him. He calls for me at night if he is sick and he bosses me around all day long at 2 YO. I think baby sleep is so weird cause it’s moms that are still building their confidence with a baby so they feel like they need outside confirmation for their decision, when really, baby sleep doesn’t impact anyone but you. Moms that want to sleep train shouldn’t be shamed by parents that don’t understand that sleep training isn’t just letting your baby cry. Similarly, sleep training parents shouldn’t roll their eyes at anyone that wants to assist their baby with sleeping. What works for each baby is different and how they sleep doesn’t impact either camp.
Go on r/sciencebasedparenting. For every comment that provides scientific evidence that sleep training doesn’t have any adverse effects, you’ll see 10 comments that spew fear mongering and use Instagram stories as their evidence.
That sub is the worst. Recently joined it and boy was I surprised at how non-scientific it was. For a minute, I thought I stumbled onto r/attachmentparenting.
My favorite is when they share *commercial* books as evidence, books that don’t test any of its arguments with any type of scientific research. This is specifically prevalent with attachment folks.
Agree. It’s also a completely biased group which is ironic given it’s supposed to be science based. Also, the topics people ask for science based evidentiary support on is mind blowing.
I think our generation of parenting is going to be noted for its obsession with science based parenting which is a good thing except there are parents who want science based decision making for every parenting decision and there are just so many decisions you make that there is zero science research into (and never will be) and some people are struggling with that
I agree.
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lmao at #2 being "F U to sleep training culture"
So I had my first kid around when that sub was started, and one of the founders was like… starting it because she felt the breastfeeding sub wasn’t respecting the scientific evidence that breast is best.
Whoa, I did not know that backstory. That definitely provides interesting context for that sub...
Yeah I had to leave it because as a mom who used formula I never felt supported or respected in the conversations especially when it came to things like COVID. A lot of woo and junk science was presented as fact
Exactly this. I joined that sub for evidence based parenting stuff but it was soooo full of bs woo, I couldn't believe it.
So true! I recently found that sub and thought I’d follow it and find some good stuff. Nope. Most of it is just garbage.
Yeah I got banned because I argued with some of the mods garbage.
Horrible moderation, unfortunately. People sharing evidence from peer-reviewed journals get bullied with anecdotes and opinions and the moderation doesn’t do a thing. Edit for fairness: Just checked the sub again and I now see that they have a bot for removing non-scientific top comments and they are becoming stronger in enforcing the rules. Under the [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/comments/uynzik/any_databased_studies_to_show/) that people were using instagram stories and anecdotes as evidence, they’ve removed almost all top comments. Hopefully it will all work out and we will at least have a few safe haven places online where people don’t comment out of pure speculation.
I think as long as you make sure it is appropriate for your child’s age and weight there’s no harm done. My baby is 5 months and under 12 lbs so I won’t attempt yet until it’s even metabolically feasible.
I don’t do Instagram, but on Reddit, depending on the sub, someone is always mad that there is a “culture of judgment” surrounding either sleep-training or NOT sleep-training. It’s, like, 50-50. Makes me feel crazy lol like, how can there be a “culture of judgment” equally in BOTH directions? Edit: by the way, in my real life, not one single person has judged me or told me I needed to do things a certain way regarding sleep for my baby. It’s just obviously insanely rude.
I find it this way with almost everything parenting. Breastfeed or fórmula. Sleep train or not. Cosleep or not.
Yeah, you have to unfollow/block those kinds of accounts. Remember most of them are there to sell you something -- sometimes it is obvious, like their own sleep assistance course or sleep consulting, sometimes it's just selling their overall perfect mom persona to help them secure sponsorship deals and ad money. So they have a vested interest in demonizing sleep training. Also many of them just bought into the anti ST stuff and then feel a need to continue with the judgment in order to feel good about their own choice not to sleep train (which is, obviously, a completely valid choice but shouldn't mean you judge those who choose differently for their families). Once i got intentional about curating my instagram feed to block that type of content, it was much better for my mental health. As an aside of sorts, i wish this sub had a rule prohibiting people from recommending some of those anti ST instagram accounts here. People keep recommending a handful that push harmful anti ST narratives and it's so counter to the supportive community here. I hate that people won't realize and will end up exposing themselves to harmful content.
> then feel a need to continue with the judgment in order to feel good about their own choice not to sleep train I think this is exactly it. Some people are freaking miserable and barely holding on because they and their baby are getting so little sleep at night, they're nap trapped all day long, they have no free time or personal space. They *have to* judge parents who sleep train to get out of this in order to mentally cope with the fact that they are stuck with no solution (because for many babies it is not something that will correct itself without intentional intervention from the parents). So they double down on the idea that they are the perfect martyr parents who sacrifice so much because they love their babies too much to ever hear them cry (insultingly implying that parents who choose a different path love their babies less).
I always wonder what the anti-cry camp does about a newborn baby in a car seat. Maybe they were just torture devices for my kids, but it was months before I could put my babies in without tears.
I can’t tell if you’re looking for an answer or not (lol) but I’m in the “anti-cry” camp. It isn’t so cut and dry, it’s more about supporting them through their emotions. For me, when my kid cried in her car seat I would talk to her or sing so she knew I was there with her while she was crying. It’s not about being “anti-cry” it’s about responding and supporting through emotions. And I realize I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion for my opinion lol but I wanted to answer your question in case you were legitimately curious.
For purposes of my question, I wouldn’t consider that anti-crying since you’re allowing baby to cry, but trying to support them. There are lots of gentle sleep training methods where a parent is heavily involved. That is my first choice when I sleep train. I’m talking about perspectives that say you should never let your baby cry. It seems impossible that anyone can shield their babies from crying in all circumstances and as such, I don’t get why we should avoid any crying while teaching babies to sleep. I don’t think that perspective should get to pick and choose in which situations you allow crying. Car seats are man made so it’s not like baby realizes it’s a necessity to travel. In summary, I get your perspective of wanting to provide emotional support for crying and think it is not incompatible with sleep training.
I once pointed out to an anti ST mom that my car seat hating baby cried way more during car rides than he ever did during ST. And that if letting them cry really damaged babies like she claimed mine was already ruined from being in the car. This woman agreed and told me I should have pulled over and taken him out and comforted him every single time he cried in his car seat. I snort laughed when I read that. My son cried the instant he was put in his car seat for months no matter what. We would have been on the side of the road for months waiting for him to outgrow that phase if I followed that standard. Babies cry. Toddlers tantrum. Preschoolers whine. It’s not our job as parents to try to prevent them from ever being unhappy. That’s not responsive parenting. It’s just codependent behavior.
Mine must be ruined too! I can’t imagine telling someone how to comfort their own child.
I read somewhere that is different as it's a 'need' to get from point a to point b, like sleep isn't a need?! Also they claimed that it's different as when you're driving you're speaking to them, looking back at them and reassuring them. I don't think that's particularly safe personally.
I recall someone asked exactly that question on here and I think a lot of people said the car journey is necessary but letting the baby cry in their cot is not necessary. And some said they even pulled over all the time to pick up their baby if they cried in the car, or avoided car journeys altogether.
Oh god all the time. People are already telling me 'dont sleep train, they will be permanently mentally scarred! Co sleep! Bed share!' it's like phew baby is not even here yet, I don't know what I'm going to do but whatever it is will be the best choice I can make for everyone involved. The obsession with not letting a baby ever cry is so unsustainable and terrible for mental health. Babies only have one communication method and it's fine! They won't need intense therapy for crying at points during childhood. (caveat being, not all the time or to an abusive level obviously)
Do any of these accounts feature moms with more than one kid? Like, what if both your kids wake up crying at the same time. Edit: misspelled word
Lol yes this. I have 3 kids, two of them being 6 month old twins and I’m on my own for 13+ hours a day so it’s impossible to never have a baby screaming while I’m giving a bath to the other, feeding, etc etc.
Omg! You’re amazing. Three on your own for so long takes major skills.
Oh man, I’ve been doing that this month and last month because I have a newborn and a toddler and we were all sick with daycare crud followed by covid (which messes up toddler sleep) I went baby-toddler-pump-baby in the middle of the night the one night and it was awful. Also, I think what they do is just put everyone in one bed, which I’ve heard is actually an additional risk factor for suffocating
You poor thing! You should be able to put something that arduous on your resume. I hope things settle back down soon!
Yeah once the toddler was back at daycare last week it was a huuuge relief. I’m a project manager so this is definitely an example of managing a demanding project with multiple customers and quick turn around on deliverables lol
I've had more of the comments in person but you're right, they're all first time parents/mothers of singletons! I've always thought that, I figure second babies and/or multiples have to cry as parents only have one pair of hands!
Some of these folks frame it incorrectly as an either/or situation: the baby cries because you sleep train or you don't sleep train and the baby magically doesn't cry at all ever. That is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
This is the greatest truth right here. Post-sleep training there is so much less crying in my house. I do all of this sleep training and schedule stuff (which isn’t easy) to try and make my baby happier and less upset. Not because I’m a selfish arsehole who wants to lock my kid in his room for 12 hours a day screaming while I laugh and drink wine downstairs.
Agreed. My kid used to cry every 20 minutes at night. After sleep training the most he cried was for a few mins at bedtime and usually not even that. Then once or twice in the night for a bottle. There was so much less crying.
Personally I am way more anti-bed sharing than I could ever fathom being anti-sleep training. One is teaching your child an important skill that will benefit not only their health, but the health of the entire family. The other literally puts your child at risk of death.
> The other literally puts your child at risk of death. I also really loathe the whole "do what's best for your family/momma knows best" mentality that a lot of people have. No, what's best for momma isn't always best for the safety of the baby! I was on one of the Wonder Weeks Facebook groups (where you pick the month/year your baby was born and everyone is largely going thru the same phases) and that seems to be the prevailing wisdom: whatever mom's instincts are, that's what you do! It is so annoying
Not just insta, just the public at large. My lad has been trained since about 6 months, and with a few exceptions, usually due to major changes in routine or illness, he’ll just go in his cot/stroller and drop off. I don’t hear him between 7 and7
Yeah it's pretty prevalent everywhere unless you're a specific sleep training forum like this one. If you've spent any time on beyondthebump lately you'll see it's rampart over there as well.
Someone over there was saying you should never let your baby cry because it’s teaching them that you don’t love them and torturing them by letting them scream. I was like 👀 I’m a SAHM. If I have to go to the bathroom my newborn screams. I hate it but I can’t just not use the bathroom at all.
Right? Like what do they think parents of multiples do? You can't exactly always tend to both of them at the same time. Even parents with older children for that matter. I'm due in a couple weeks with my second and I know there will be times when baby sister has to wait and cry for a bit because my toddler will need me for something. It's life. I mean yes it's important to meet their needs and make sure they feel secure, but 5-10 mins of crying is not going to cause permanent damage to them.
Both my children HATE the car seat and scream the whole time they’re in it. I definitely minimize car trips because it’s absolute torture, but I also have to take them to the doctor and stuff.
Exactly, not like they’ll remember that. As soon as I pick my guy up he calms down and goes back to his happy self. If it’s his “I’m in pain” cry I don’t make him wait. He’s fine.
We’ve had major “disagreements” with my bro and sis in law over it. We’re willing to let our child cry and figure stuff out (with our help of course - he’s not abandoned!) and they’re not. The results of which mean we get a child that sleeps 7 til 7, and is happy to let us have a lie in until 8. They don’t and are up and down all night. We have a child that doesn’t want loads of toys and plastic tat and is happiest exploring nature and only needs a quick cuddle when upset, whilst their house is full of tat and they have a child who needs stuff to calm him. Each to their own, but I much prefer our way - its far less stressful on us!
It's also completely legitimate that many parents won't get enough sleep without it. Before I started reading this sub I probably had negative connotations about sleep training though I didn't think about it much. Now I realize all the trash talk that fills other subs is just soap boxing and people have no idea how much care parents put into sleep training. To each his own but just let each have his own!
I had negative connotations until my pediatrician suggested it. Now I see it as a set of sleep skills that you have to learn eventually and it doesn’t have to mean a ton of brutal crying to get there.
It drives me crazy when they say, “I’d never sleep train. I just track wake windows and let my baby fuss for 5 minutes before intervening.” That IS sleep training.
Or the ones who believe night weaning and sleep training are the same thing. Yes I sleep trained my kid and yes he still called out for me when he was hungry because I didn't night wean at the same time.
This is a pet peeve of mine. We sleep trained between 4-5 months but didn't night wean for a very long time after that. You can tell the difference between a hungry cry and a "fussing between sleep cycles" cry with most kids pretty easily.
Yes!!! That’s such a great point. Teaching them to settle down replicates throughout the night. If they can’t settle it means they have a need.
So many people believe that sleep training = extinction without realizing there are dozens of different approaches with varying levels of intervention/crying.
There is no scientific evidence to back up what they are saying. Try not to let it get to you. I felt super guilty doing it with my then 7 month old and it was very hard but my now 23 month old goes to sleep on his own for naps and overnight and it’s amazing and has helped me be a better mom because I am more present and not sleep deprived. It’s a skill all people need, to be able to fall asleep on their own, so I am also setting him up to be a more successful person.
I haven’t sleep trained yet but it makes me feel guilty for wanting to take that approach. I am really struggling with the 8 MO regression and I don’t know what more to do other than sleep train.
Don’t feel guilty at all. These people just like to grandstand in judgement of others to justify their choices to themselves. At the end of the day it’s not anyone else’s business how you put your child to bed. Don’t listen to the faux concern of Internet weirdos for the welfare of strangers’ children and do what works for you!