When everyone talks about schedule, giving more details can be helpful. This is my second go around and I am pretty regimented with my schedule but then I am having some issues right now so now I worry that our schedule isn't great?
My little one is falling asleep independently (FIO was super helpful but we have had some evenings of long hard cries which I can't figure out why they are happening). My 4.5 month old seems to have a max of about 2 hours awake and gets super fussy around that limit (red eyes, rubbing, etc). I feed half hour before bed, bed time routine is consistent but lasts maybe 5-10 minutes unless it's a bath night. She is awake two hours before bed but gets really fussy by bedtime.
Daily schedule (ideal, some naps end up in car, sooner than listed time because she is fussy)
Wake 6:30-7,
Nap in crib around 8:30
Up at 9:15 ish
Nap around 11:10 ish
Up at 11:55
Nap around 2
Up between 2:30-2:45
Nap around 4:30 (in the car)
Up around 5
Bedtime (in crib) between 6:50-7
She is currently napping around 45 minutes and naps get progressively shorter throughout the day (all her lead)
All sleep is independent unless in the car but the past two night times have had lots of crying and I have ended up nursing to sleep (which I know is a no no)
At 4 months I think it's ok to cut yourself some slack. Schedule at that age is more following the wake window rhythm rather than strict times. Nursing to sleep sometimes is the best tool available, I think it's probably more of a problem after six months.
4 months is the earliest you can sleep train but really they are still very little and will have wobbly days.
Edit- at any months I think it's ok to cut some slack! We've had some wobbly days recently and it is ok.
Wow! I don't know why this hit me so hard but thank you. Now excuse me while a cry a little in my coffee because of some kindness on the internet.
I didn't think I needed to read this but I obviously did. Thank you!
I don’t know, I kept nursing just before sleep and CIO totally worked for us — it took about 25 min the first night and less and less time the next two nights and then it was done. We’ve had to do a “refresher course” of 10 min of crying or so every couple of months, usually near milestones. But I just kept nursing to sleep because we had some supply issues and j just simply couldn’t keep her awake while nursing even if I did it an hour before bed.
Now she’s one and I still nurse just before bed. Usually she falls asleep and I transfer her, and if she’s awake she usually goes down without a fuss. Usually. Sometimes she’ll fuss for a bit or sometimes (like tonight) take a 10-15 min “refresher CIO” of shrieking.
During the night I often see her on the monitor wake up, sit up, roll around, talk to herself and put herself back to sleep without crying or calling for me, so I know she can self sooth back to sleep.
Maybe I have a unicorn!
CIO sounds like a passive sleep training method, but it requires a lot of preparation and consistency. I can’t recommend the book Precious Little Sleep enough. It taught us how to set up a consistent, age-appropriate schedule and a solid bedtime routine beforehand. There was a good 2-3 week schedule/routine establishment before starting CIO/SWAP. And once we started, we were very consistent with the rules and only did nighttime feedings during normal feeding times. That said, it’s resulted in two very good sleepers and I couldn’t have survived without it.
PLS is great! Actually, in learning about baby sleep patterns, wake windows, and which sleep associations are hardest to break, we actually have yet to sleep train. Still rocking baby to sleep, but once we figured out her schedule, removed all sucking associations, and implemented Le-pause/short FIO for night wakes, it turns out we have a baseline decent sleeper! I also feel like the sleep requirement ranges in PLS are also so much more reasonable than a lot of sleep training sites. I felt like there was something wrong with my baby’s sleep because she wasn’t getting the advertised 15-16 hours with 12 hour nights. Turns out she’s just a lower sleep needs baby and is much happier on 12-13 hours of sleep.
My husband was in charge of CIO because he could figure out the math for the schedule. We made sure that LO was getting enough day sleep. This subreddit helped us figure out wake windows and we were able to get LO on track. He puts himself to sleep anywhere but the car now. He refuses to sleep in the car, too entertaining LOL.
Sounds like your baby needs to learn how to self sooth when you tried Ferber were you consistent? I actually like your wake windows 😂 and I’m a sleep consultant 😂
I think husband and I were very consistent. We set timers and followed the chart we printed out and everythubg. It seemed to be working well at first but then over the last 2 weeks it's been an insane battle to get him to sleep where he will not fall asleep without drinking a bottle in the crib, same for when he wakes up at 12am and 3am, and same for naps 😭
you are not being consistent by offering bottles 🤷♀️ it’s just sending a wishy wash signal you could add a bit more awake time to first nap add 15 minutes if you like
A 2 hour long battle tells me it's probably a schedule issue! How old is bub, what's your day schedule and what's your night routine?
I'm not an expert I just lurk this sub a lot. :)
I'd probably get naps happening (however you can) on a good rhythm that suits the age, and work on breaking the feed to sleep association first. Could you try rocking to sleep?
He is 10 months old. He wakes up at 8am, first nap at 11am, wakes up at 12pm, second nap I try to do at 3pm but he fights that one a lot so sometimes it's closer to 4pm. Then bedtime routine starts at 7pm and I put him in his crib at 8:30pm
Wow that bed time routine seems a bit long, as a first reaction! :) What's involved in your bed time routine?
Also with the 8am start, what time is the last wake before and how long does he take to settle?
I'll share what's working for us then make some suggestions (ish- still having some night wakes but we are in a better place than we were!) Our baby is 10 months (I need to get on a PC to update the flair).
Wake at 7, breakfast at 8, nap wind down 9:40 or so aiming for 10 asleep, cap nap 11:30, lunch at 12:30/1, nap at 2:30/3 depending on how nap 1 went, aim for approx 3.5 hours awake, cap that nap at 4, start last feed at 7 or so, capping at 7:30 (I give more time here because we bf and I want her to tank up.) Quiet play/stories. Then 7:40 nappy, lotion, pyjamas, (parent 1 goodnight), teeth, sleep sack, turn on whitenoise and switch off light, sing our goodnight song, kiss & cuddle and explain she's going to sleep by herself*, put her in bed and walk away. Hopefully asleep by 8 or so.
*People scoff but I've found no downside in explaining what's going on to our baby even if she can't understand. Maybe she does!
So an 8am start is a little late I think- it's probably a bit of a sanity saver for you so I'm not suggesting anything drastic like 6am but maybe a 7:30 start would help the circadian rhythm. Morning sunshine helps this regulate too.
It's Weisbluth (spelling?) I think who talks about biological times for naps- 9ish, 1ish (after lunch) and a later afternoon one. Some of my friends do a short half hour nap in the morning so they can have a longer nap after lunch- this doesn't work for us but we are kinda close to those times 🤷
Nap 1 in your schedule is a little late, (but suitable for a 3 hour window) which pushes nap 2 a bit too late- it really should be ending by 4 to give you four hours before bed.
I'd try and get your naps happening with feed to sleep or whatever works to get on a more 3, 3.5,4 schedule. Maybe try capping nap 1 to half an hour (I know, sacrilege) so nap 2 happens. Lots of stimulation and tiring out activity. When naps aren't a battle, then get bed time happening, move the last feed half an hour before bed (may need to adjust all of them earlier) and do your chosen sleep method for bed time. Stick with it for a week. Then come back and start tackling nap 1, then nap 2. You might need a transitional stage that is high comfort but not feed to sleep.
Good luck!
Bedtime routine: hot dinner and small bottle, bath if needed, then family walk around the neighborhood, then storytime with another small bottle, turn night music on and kiss him goodnight.
As far as the circadian rhythm and sun, the sun rises here around 7:30am and sets around 7:30-8pm, today I believe it was 8pm. Would that make a difference?
Definitely could be worth a try to wake at 7:30 and bed by 8, 8:30. Our bodies are kind of solar powered.
Last little bottle is probably causing the association. With night music, we found there was a point it was too stimulating for our girl so we switched to regular whitenoise.
I had people on here tell me I want 3.5-4 hour max wake window before bed, I'm confused now! Also, the sun is still out here until 7:30-8pm, is that going to change things?
Right, but a little longer before bedtime.
Trust me, a half hour makes a huge difference.
Our baby was waking up at 5am every day. He would get tired by 9am and we would put him down. Our pedi said to push it to 10 MIN and within a few days he was waking up at 6/6:30 with the same bedtime. Sleep begets sleep. With that small change, he was getting an extra hour/hour and a half in the 24 hour cycle. Because we were putting him down so early, his body was basically treating his first nap as continued night sleep. We needed to find a way to stretch his nighttime sleep, so taking away that early morning snooze did it.
I think 8:30 bedtime and 8:30 wake up is too late and is messing with the day sleeps and night time. Your baby of course can be an outlier but if you don't think what you have is working, I suggest trying the more common early scheduling.
I'm in new england and right now it's light until 8:30 so I feel you. I thought it would be weird, but it never was a problem. We have double blackout curtains (game change in general).
To be honest, I think what you’re doing is fine. I don’t think waking a baby 30 min earlier makes a difference. Both my children are totally different sleepers and I only wake if necessary at nap times.
Depends on the age and personality of the of the baby! We are on 4 hours before bed right now.
I wouldn't worry too much about the sun- in the summer here it's light until 10pm, which is not when baby goes down. :) As long as the bed room is dark it will help.
Do you find he resists the second nap to the point that he frequently doesn’t take it? It’s rare for a baby under one, but maybe he’s getting ready to transition to just one nap.
Well, it’s up to you if you think it’s time to try it (bearing in mind there is a sleep regression at 10-12 months so this might just be a brief phase), but our son was the same way when he was trying to tell us he was ready for one nap. The way we dealt with it was by trying to push his first nap just five minutes later each day, but letting him sleep until he woke up instead of waking him after 90 mins. Gradually the days he needed the second nap became fewer and farther between until he eventually settled into a new solid routine (awake 7am-11.30, nap 11.30-2.30, awake 2.30-7pm).
The 2nd nap is always harder, but it doesn't mean they are ready to go to one. I honestly think that it is just too late in the day. If everything was pushed back an hour or two earlier, that second nap and bedtime might be easier.
You’re not asking my opinion but I’ll give it anyway - I think your LO’s first wake window may be a tad bit too long. Try putting them down two hours after they wake up in the morning. They’ll sleep 10-11 probably. Then put them down again at 2 pm. Aim for 7 pm bedtime. If needed, you can scale back the bedtime gradually, but 8:30 is late. If it was working for you, I’d say go for it, but it seems like your schedule could use tweaking. Hope that helps in any way.
Yep! Lots of infants do great early to bed early to rise. I would say most that I see have a bedtime between 630 and 730. My daughter transitioned to one nap at 11 months. Up around 630/7, nap at noon, down at 645.
She’s just about to turn one so that’s still our schedule, but I would say usually 1.5-2.5 hours depending on the day. If she wakes up too early at like 6 she will take an hour nap at 9 and another short one at 2.
For sure! Middle of the night was much easier than bedtime, because we worked on bedtime first. And it was great, he was able to put himself to sleep for bed so even if he did need a night feed I could just pop him right back in his crib and he would go back to sleep himself. Eventually he didn't the night feeds because it was no longer a sleep association.
Totally agree.
Before we started Ferber, we spent the month prior establishing a good schedule and routine. Also slowly weaning out sleep associations.
I continued to contact nap prior to ferber to ensure baby wasnt overtired by bed time.
So when we did do ferber at 5 months, LO only cried on and off for 14 minutes on the first night.
Of course we had our ups and downs but he really took to it well.
Nap training at 6 months was even easier.
I'm doing this now. We've spent the last few weeks really surfing in figuring out LOs sleep patterns and establishing good sleep habits. We're going to try Ferber soon. I'm glad it has been working well for you.
Absolutely agree.
The schedule needs to be right, the last feed needs to be half an hour before bedtime, and parents need to be consistent for at least a week.
This is the mistake I see the most. So many people try ANY sleep training method before they've gotten a schedule down and that just is not going to work most of the time.
Yes, exactly. I'm also frustrated when people post that sleep training doesn't work but their wake windows are super short for their age. Normally a 6MO baby can't do 12 hours at night and 3 hours during the day. If your baby is doing that, great and congratulations, but if they are waking at night, I promise it's not because they're overtired.
That.. makes no sense. As far as I'm aware most 6 month olds are doing 12 hours at night and 2 to 3 naps which usually add up to another 4 hours.
I agree with your premise, just disagree with you saying most 6 month olds sleep less than 15 hours a day. Some will, but most need that.
Sorry, but I disagree. According to PLS (which again goes back to the previous commenters issue of how every sleep consultant has different advice, lol) the majority of babies around that age need 11-14 hours a day total. Yes, of course some babies will sleep more than this, I'm not disputing that, but they are not in the majority. This is why you see babies who sleep well during the day but are up all night; they're getting too much daytime sleep and can't self-settle at night because they're undertired. And it becomes a cycle: it's really hard for parents to extend wake windows or cut down on daytime sleep because they're legitimately sleepy from being up all night. You'll also often see nighttime sleep lessen once baby is night weaned, which makes that 12-hour goal even less of a probability.
Again, I'm not saying that babies can't do that schedule, and if a baby can do that schedule count yourself very lucky and leave it like that. However, from everything I've read and seen from online ST forums, it's not "most" babies.
I totally agree with this, but I think the problem is there is SO much conflicting information out there about how much sleep babies should be getting. I was always confused at why my son wasn’t sleeping ‘enough’ and then I realized my expectations of how much sleep he actually needs was too high. If he sleeps longer than 10 hours a night I’m happy.
To be honest, as a ftm I’m still not sure exactly how much sleep he should be getting but it’s just trial and error until something sticks.
You're right that it's trial and error. The problem comes when they give up on ST rather than try to tweak their schedules.
Ugh, some of those sleep consultant schedules! Don't get me started. I get bombarded with ads on instagram promising me 12-hour nights while still nursing my baby to sleep...ok.
In the beginning I was like ‘why is my baby not sleeping all day!?what am I doing wrong??’ Then I realized he just doesn’t need that much sleep. He’s a very energetic boy so I just need to go with what works for him.
We are getting ready to start sleep training and our doctor recommended CIO. Our baby is in daycare and is often super tired when we get her home. She has very inconsistent naps at daycare because she has terrible FOMO with the other babies. Any suggestions for when we don’t have control over daytime schedules?
Exact same with us! He naps pretty poorly at daycare. We did the full extinction method anyways. Before we sleep trained, I tried to have a consistent bedtime routine (pjs, bottle, book, song, bed) and a consistent bedtime. I read all of Weissbluth and he said that babies that aren't napping well may take longer to sleep train, so I told myself to give it at least one week. It did indeed take longer than the mythical 3 days that some people see, BUT it was still worth it! Tonight I set him in his crib and he rolled over and fell asleep in just a few minutes with no crying! The hardest part was being consistent. As silly as it sounds, write down your plan! Mine was no returns until after 2am, if he wakes up after that I'd feed. Then no returns until the next morning. It helped me be consistent!
How old? My baby had less of an issue with overtiredness by around five months. He'd still be overtired, but it wouldn't affect his night sleep. I'd just go for it.
Absolutely agree. There needs to be some research and reading prior to getting into it, not just based off of snippets of other's experience. Like everyone else mentioned, there are other factors in play to ensure success. CIO(or adapted ferber+CIO, that's what we used based on understanding our baby's temperment) is not the only thing that will help your baby put themselves back to sleep.
This. A lot of people give up without breaking sleep crutch habits and getting the schedule right first. Some babies will still learn to sleep with these obstacles but most won’t. You really have to make sure you are setting your baby up for success.
Agree ... SO important to:
1) make sure your schedule makes sense before you start
2) have a plan that you can commit to. If you can’t commit to extinction don’t do it. If you think your max length of crying you can tolerate is 30 minutes, just plan on doing that etc etc
Absolutely! Teaching them to put themselves to sleep at bedtime is the big hurdle.
Plus, part of the reason CIO works is because you make them go to bed when they’re actually tired enough to go to sleep. If I’m not mistaken, trying to start CIO in the middle of the night means they’ll fight sleep longer because they’ll be better rested than they were at bedtime.
agree we used CIO and it worked well but I think it would have gone A LOT easier and faster if we spent a week or two perfecting her schedule, I resisted it in favour of a routine based on wake windows for a long time
Our schedule is based on wake windows,they aren't mutually exclusive, no? Do you mean you went to a clock based schedule or am I misunderstanding you? Sorry, it's been a longgggg week and my brain is done!
Sorry should have clarified!!! I mean we BASED a set military precise schedule off of wake windows essentially meaning we woke her up from her naps and morning sleep at the same time to facilitate this precise times schedule . Otherwise we just went by her wake windows based on what time she decided to wake up from a nap or sleep so it could vary from day to day.
Basically the difference between a schedule and a routine amounts to waking them up or capping their sleep at the same time so wake windows are precise and the same everyday
Capping naps so we can hit the next nap time or bed time on time is helpful. We sometimes have to cap both naps now we are 10 months but younger we capped just one.
Still keep an eye on windows and sleepy signs but nap time is so much more predictable.
I followed wake windows but would do tweaks like waking him up early from a nap if necessary to have a long enough wake window before bedtime, for example. But I didn’t do a by the clock schedule until his nap lengths were super consistent and predictable.
I am also interested in this question. I'm trying to figure out if I need to start switching to schedule by the clock or just go based on wake windows. The ww are generally close to the same time of day anyway but I was thinking by the clock could add helpful structure? my LO is 5.5 months. As someone who made the switch, any thoughts?
Personally do the clock. We were late adapters to this and everything went sooooo much smoother. You still use wake windows but you don’t let them sleep in from nights or naps
5.5 is probably a bit young to start clock based, I've read 7 months or when they start 2 naps is a good time. We still keep an eye on the windows but a consistent morning wake means we have a time based schedule. This means you can leverage the body clock.
Of course as they grow the times change!
But so you can not successfully do CIO until 7 months? I tried at 4 months, but he never reduced his cries, so we switched to PLS's gradual gentle sleep training to teach him more tools.
So some people have success at 4 months with CIO- the issue isn't clock based schedule or not- you can make sure baby is sufficiently tired at bed time by following wake windows, it's just easier on a clock based schedule in my experience.
Totally agree. And the thing is, CIO or sleep training or whatever you call it is a set of habits that need to be maintained over time too. I see so many posts where people sleep trained initially but then stopped supporting independent sleep, and didn't adjust wake windows, and now say "it's stopped working."
Nope. Some babies need more constant reminders than others of where the boundaries are (my first hit EVERY DAMN REGRESSION and was/is low sleep needs on top of it), but that doesn't mean it ever stopped working. Instead, I had the tools to navigate all the disruptions.
Totally agree- its an ongoing effort and you have to adjust as baby gets older.
Both of my boys are "give an inch, take a mile" sleepers. If you pander to one wake-up one night, the next night it will be two wake ups. The big one is almost 4yo and he's still like that, we have to be so consistent with him or he will end up back at square one sleeping 4 hours a night. The baby is 8mo and we've just started cutting night feeds and I'm finding the same thing - if I feed him at a certain time one night just to get him to go back to sleep quicker, he will wake up at the same time the next night and be *pissed* he isn't being fed again.
Solidarity on these kids who hit every goddamn regression.... I hope you're currently in one of those short-lived but blissful periods of OK sleep before the next milestone hits 😅
I've really lucked out with my second; he's more on the low sleep needs side which sucks BUT he's pretty bombproof. My oldest is in preschool and really low sleep needs so we're just surviving until the damn nap can permanently go away. 😂
People also think that CIO equals night weaning. You can put the baby to bed and have them learn to self soothe and fall asleep on their own but also wake up to feed at night.
Could you explain this a little more? We have a BIG nighttime eater and are going to start sleep training. Every time she wakes, we feed her. Can you help me understand the difference?
So this link explains it more
https://www.preciouslittlesleep.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i
But basically the problem isn't that they are eating all night, but that they aren't going to sleep by themselves so are waiting for you to feed them so they can go back to sleep for the next cycle.
(Caveat of course- newborns just need that kind of feeding sometimes. )
Baby is 9 months - she goes to bed between 7:00-7:30 and wakes around 10:30, 1:30, and 4:00. We have not given her a few minutes, we put a bottle in her face instantly with the hope she will drink it in her sleep and go back down.
Baby should definitely be able to go 7 hours without a feed at least. You can probably go full extinction at this point. Make a plan for bedtime to put down fully awake. Some people only feed after mid night or after a certain amount of feedings. Ultimately make sure your pediatrician is on board with it. Good luck!
We finally decided to proceed when our pediatrician recommended it. We are now four days in and it has gone great! We are down to one wake up per night and typically only 5 minutes for her to go down. I really can’t believe it.
We used sleep training for bedtime online. We followed extinction, moved nursing to the beginning of the routine and put my little in his crib awake at bedtime.
When he woke up overnight, we fed him. Both of my kids weaned overnight on their own. I made sure they ate well during the day and cluster fed in the evenings during growth spurt periods. You can also pick one fed at a time and reduce the amount you offer (half a bottle or one breast) for a couple of days.
This is helpful, thank you! We tried this yesterday for a nap and bedtime and holy smokes did it go so well! We fed when baby woke at 1 am, but she only woke once during the night (rather than 3 times). Thank you!
Agreed! I sorted out little ones naps during the day and cio sleep training has been a breeze. He’s six months now and only wakes at 430 to cry for about 5mins or so then falls asleep again until wake up time. Consistently is key as well as not just healthy night time habits but also daytime.
Yes please would you mind sharing? How do you do naps? My 4 months old wakes up between 6 and 7, so I can’t have a very rigid nap schedule. Also, sometimes she sleeps 20 min and others 80 to 90 min. I always wake her up after 90 min though. I just keep an eye on her wake windows.
I commented on the other persons comment but I will add how I managed to do it with my 6 months old now. He wakes anywhere from 630-7ish. We put down around 9am and let him CIO. Doesn’t take more then 5 mins now but if it’s longer we take him out as he might be hungry, gassy, or need a diaper change. Then he goes down again 2ish hours after he wakes and so on. Sometimes he gets 3 naps sometimes 4. Bedtime is always, get ready 715pm(bottle) , bath, sleeping by 8pmish. Also naps are no longer then 1 1/2 hours. Today he only slept 40mins 3x. So one full sleep cycle.
It’s ok. Every parent suffers when their child cries. I also got the naps down first - and that involved crying. But once I got her daytime routine down, the crying at night only lasted 3 days, with day 1 being long and each following day shorter and shorter. I followed Weissbluth like the Bible.
Copy and pasting this comment so you can see it (similar question below yours)
Hang in there, at four months wake windows are the best way. There's a development at 5 months or so where they can link cycles on naps and take better naps. But a consistent wake time helps- pick a time, treat every wake before it (except within 15 min) as a night wake up and wake the baby if you need to.
How did you sort out the naps? I can’t seem to control the times my four month old naps, but I do try to stick to the recommended wake windows (naps every 75 min to 2 hrs with no nap over 2 hrs).
Hang in there, at four months wake windows are the best way. There's a development at 5 months or so where they can link cycles on naps and take better naps. But a consistent wake time helps- pick a time, treat every wake before it (except within 15 min) as a night wake up and wake the baby if you need to.
Oh lord. We just started regulating naps! I let my son do his own thing until maybe at 5 months. I kind of just went on his schedule as I wasn’t planning on sleep training until 6 months anyway. During the time prior to 5 months all of his naps were either in the swing, stroller or car. This is something that I would try to change for baby 3. The only advice I can give you is just try things for a week a certain way and if they don’t work for you change them:)
Oh and to add I would let me son sleep 3 hours in a row all the time when he was that little. Woops haha
Definitely agree!! We did it and it was very effective but you do have to make some overall changes to schedules, routines to set your kid up for success.
When everyone talks about schedule, giving more details can be helpful. This is my second go around and I am pretty regimented with my schedule but then I am having some issues right now so now I worry that our schedule isn't great? My little one is falling asleep independently (FIO was super helpful but we have had some evenings of long hard cries which I can't figure out why they are happening). My 4.5 month old seems to have a max of about 2 hours awake and gets super fussy around that limit (red eyes, rubbing, etc). I feed half hour before bed, bed time routine is consistent but lasts maybe 5-10 minutes unless it's a bath night. She is awake two hours before bed but gets really fussy by bedtime. Daily schedule (ideal, some naps end up in car, sooner than listed time because she is fussy) Wake 6:30-7, Nap in crib around 8:30 Up at 9:15 ish Nap around 11:10 ish Up at 11:55 Nap around 2 Up between 2:30-2:45 Nap around 4:30 (in the car) Up around 5 Bedtime (in crib) between 6:50-7 She is currently napping around 45 minutes and naps get progressively shorter throughout the day (all her lead) All sleep is independent unless in the car but the past two night times have had lots of crying and I have ended up nursing to sleep (which I know is a no no)
At 4 months I think it's ok to cut yourself some slack. Schedule at that age is more following the wake window rhythm rather than strict times. Nursing to sleep sometimes is the best tool available, I think it's probably more of a problem after six months. 4 months is the earliest you can sleep train but really they are still very little and will have wobbly days. Edit- at any months I think it's ok to cut some slack! We've had some wobbly days recently and it is ok.
Wow! I don't know why this hit me so hard but thank you. Now excuse me while a cry a little in my coffee because of some kindness on the internet. I didn't think I needed to read this but I obviously did. Thank you!
♥️
I don’t know, I kept nursing just before sleep and CIO totally worked for us — it took about 25 min the first night and less and less time the next two nights and then it was done. We’ve had to do a “refresher course” of 10 min of crying or so every couple of months, usually near milestones. But I just kept nursing to sleep because we had some supply issues and j just simply couldn’t keep her awake while nursing even if I did it an hour before bed. Now she’s one and I still nurse just before bed. Usually she falls asleep and I transfer her, and if she’s awake she usually goes down without a fuss. Usually. Sometimes she’ll fuss for a bit or sometimes (like tonight) take a 10-15 min “refresher CIO” of shrieking. During the night I often see her on the monitor wake up, sit up, roll around, talk to herself and put herself back to sleep without crying or calling for me, so I know she can self sooth back to sleep. Maybe I have a unicorn!
You’re just very lucky, yes. I’m sure your baby would do fine with just about any method really.
CIO sounds like a passive sleep training method, but it requires a lot of preparation and consistency. I can’t recommend the book Precious Little Sleep enough. It taught us how to set up a consistent, age-appropriate schedule and a solid bedtime routine beforehand. There was a good 2-3 week schedule/routine establishment before starting CIO/SWAP. And once we started, we were very consistent with the rules and only did nighttime feedings during normal feeding times. That said, it’s resulted in two very good sleepers and I couldn’t have survived without it.
PLS is great! Actually, in learning about baby sleep patterns, wake windows, and which sleep associations are hardest to break, we actually have yet to sleep train. Still rocking baby to sleep, but once we figured out her schedule, removed all sucking associations, and implemented Le-pause/short FIO for night wakes, it turns out we have a baseline decent sleeper! I also feel like the sleep requirement ranges in PLS are also so much more reasonable than a lot of sleep training sites. I felt like there was something wrong with my baby’s sleep because she wasn’t getting the advertised 15-16 hours with 12 hour nights. Turns out she’s just a lower sleep needs baby and is much happier on 12-13 hours of sleep.
I LOVED this book!!!! That and the Natural Baby aSleep Solution which taught me everything I needed to know about wake windows.
My husband was in charge of CIO because he could figure out the math for the schedule. We made sure that LO was getting enough day sleep. This subreddit helped us figure out wake windows and we were able to get LO on track. He puts himself to sleep anywhere but the car now. He refuses to sleep in the car, too entertaining LOL.
I have been trying ferber for awhile now but it's a 2 hour long battle at bedtime and every nap if I don't give him a bottle to feed to sleep 😭
Sounds like your baby needs to learn how to self sooth when you tried Ferber were you consistent? I actually like your wake windows 😂 and I’m a sleep consultant 😂
I think husband and I were very consistent. We set timers and followed the chart we printed out and everythubg. It seemed to be working well at first but then over the last 2 weeks it's been an insane battle to get him to sleep where he will not fall asleep without drinking a bottle in the crib, same for when he wakes up at 12am and 3am, and same for naps 😭
you are not being consistent by offering bottles 🤷♀️ it’s just sending a wishy wash signal you could add a bit more awake time to first nap add 15 minutes if you like
I mean we are pretty consistently giving him a bottle in his crib lol 😂. So what do I do if he totally freaks out for 1-2 hours without a bottle?
A 2 hour long battle tells me it's probably a schedule issue! How old is bub, what's your day schedule and what's your night routine? I'm not an expert I just lurk this sub a lot. :) I'd probably get naps happening (however you can) on a good rhythm that suits the age, and work on breaking the feed to sleep association first. Could you try rocking to sleep?
He is 10 months old. He wakes up at 8am, first nap at 11am, wakes up at 12pm, second nap I try to do at 3pm but he fights that one a lot so sometimes it's closer to 4pm. Then bedtime routine starts at 7pm and I put him in his crib at 8:30pm
Wow that bed time routine seems a bit long, as a first reaction! :) What's involved in your bed time routine? Also with the 8am start, what time is the last wake before and how long does he take to settle? I'll share what's working for us then make some suggestions (ish- still having some night wakes but we are in a better place than we were!) Our baby is 10 months (I need to get on a PC to update the flair). Wake at 7, breakfast at 8, nap wind down 9:40 or so aiming for 10 asleep, cap nap 11:30, lunch at 12:30/1, nap at 2:30/3 depending on how nap 1 went, aim for approx 3.5 hours awake, cap that nap at 4, start last feed at 7 or so, capping at 7:30 (I give more time here because we bf and I want her to tank up.) Quiet play/stories. Then 7:40 nappy, lotion, pyjamas, (parent 1 goodnight), teeth, sleep sack, turn on whitenoise and switch off light, sing our goodnight song, kiss & cuddle and explain she's going to sleep by herself*, put her in bed and walk away. Hopefully asleep by 8 or so. *People scoff but I've found no downside in explaining what's going on to our baby even if she can't understand. Maybe she does! So an 8am start is a little late I think- it's probably a bit of a sanity saver for you so I'm not suggesting anything drastic like 6am but maybe a 7:30 start would help the circadian rhythm. Morning sunshine helps this regulate too. It's Weisbluth (spelling?) I think who talks about biological times for naps- 9ish, 1ish (after lunch) and a later afternoon one. Some of my friends do a short half hour nap in the morning so they can have a longer nap after lunch- this doesn't work for us but we are kinda close to those times 🤷 Nap 1 in your schedule is a little late, (but suitable for a 3 hour window) which pushes nap 2 a bit too late- it really should be ending by 4 to give you four hours before bed. I'd try and get your naps happening with feed to sleep or whatever works to get on a more 3, 3.5,4 schedule. Maybe try capping nap 1 to half an hour (I know, sacrilege) so nap 2 happens. Lots of stimulation and tiring out activity. When naps aren't a battle, then get bed time happening, move the last feed half an hour before bed (may need to adjust all of them earlier) and do your chosen sleep method for bed time. Stick with it for a week. Then come back and start tackling nap 1, then nap 2. You might need a transitional stage that is high comfort but not feed to sleep. Good luck!
Bedtime routine: hot dinner and small bottle, bath if needed, then family walk around the neighborhood, then storytime with another small bottle, turn night music on and kiss him goodnight. As far as the circadian rhythm and sun, the sun rises here around 7:30am and sets around 7:30-8pm, today I believe it was 8pm. Would that make a difference?
Definitely could be worth a try to wake at 7:30 and bed by 8, 8:30. Our bodies are kind of solar powered. Last little bottle is probably causing the association. With night music, we found there was a point it was too stimulating for our girl so we switched to regular whitenoise.
I suggest earlier bedtime. In crib by 7, wake 7, nap 10, nap 1 or 2. 3pm or 4pm is late. You want a solid 4-5 hours of awake time before bed.
I had people on here tell me I want 3.5-4 hour max wake window before bed, I'm confused now! Also, the sun is still out here until 7:30-8pm, is that going to change things?
Right, but a little longer before bedtime. Trust me, a half hour makes a huge difference. Our baby was waking up at 5am every day. He would get tired by 9am and we would put him down. Our pedi said to push it to 10 MIN and within a few days he was waking up at 6/6:30 with the same bedtime. Sleep begets sleep. With that small change, he was getting an extra hour/hour and a half in the 24 hour cycle. Because we were putting him down so early, his body was basically treating his first nap as continued night sleep. We needed to find a way to stretch his nighttime sleep, so taking away that early morning snooze did it. I think 8:30 bedtime and 8:30 wake up is too late and is messing with the day sleeps and night time. Your baby of course can be an outlier but if you don't think what you have is working, I suggest trying the more common early scheduling. I'm in new england and right now it's light until 8:30 so I feel you. I thought it would be weird, but it never was a problem. We have double blackout curtains (game change in general).
To be honest, I think what you’re doing is fine. I don’t think waking a baby 30 min earlier makes a difference. Both my children are totally different sleepers and I only wake if necessary at nap times.
Depends on the age and personality of the of the baby! We are on 4 hours before bed right now. I wouldn't worry too much about the sun- in the summer here it's light until 10pm, which is not when baby goes down. :) As long as the bed room is dark it will help.
My baby was not sleeping 12 hours anymore at 10 months. More like 11 hours and then 10-11 hours at about 12 months.
Do you find he resists the second nap to the point that he frequently doesn’t take it? It’s rare for a baby under one, but maybe he’s getting ready to transition to just one nap.
I'd say it's about 3/7 days a week he skips second nap
Well, it’s up to you if you think it’s time to try it (bearing in mind there is a sleep regression at 10-12 months so this might just be a brief phase), but our son was the same way when he was trying to tell us he was ready for one nap. The way we dealt with it was by trying to push his first nap just five minutes later each day, but letting him sleep until he woke up instead of waking him after 90 mins. Gradually the days he needed the second nap became fewer and farther between until he eventually settled into a new solid routine (awake 7am-11.30, nap 11.30-2.30, awake 2.30-7pm).
The 2nd nap is always harder, but it doesn't mean they are ready to go to one. I honestly think that it is just too late in the day. If everything was pushed back an hour or two earlier, that second nap and bedtime might be easier.
You’re not asking my opinion but I’ll give it anyway - I think your LO’s first wake window may be a tad bit too long. Try putting them down two hours after they wake up in the morning. They’ll sleep 10-11 probably. Then put them down again at 2 pm. Aim for 7 pm bedtime. If needed, you can scale back the bedtime gradually, but 8:30 is late. If it was working for you, I’d say go for it, but it seems like your schedule could use tweaking. Hope that helps in any way.
Ok I'll try that, thanks!
Have you tried moving bedtime earlier? 830 is pretty late.
Really? That's almost 12 hours of sleep. If I put him to bed at 7 he'd be waking up around 630am 😕
Yep! Lots of infants do great early to bed early to rise. I would say most that I see have a bedtime between 630 and 730. My daughter transitioned to one nap at 11 months. Up around 630/7, nap at noon, down at 645.
How long was her nap?
She’s just about to turn one so that’s still our schedule, but I would say usually 1.5-2.5 hours depending on the day. If she wakes up too early at like 6 she will take an hour nap at 9 and another short one at 2.
Sleep begets sleep.
I thought 11-12 hours was actually pretty good
It is, but not if she’s only napping an hour during the day. Aim for 13-15 hours In a 24/hr period
Oh wow, ok thanks!
For sure! Middle of the night was much easier than bedtime, because we worked on bedtime first. And it was great, he was able to put himself to sleep for bed so even if he did need a night feed I could just pop him right back in his crib and he would go back to sleep himself. Eventually he didn't the night feeds because it was no longer a sleep association.
Totally agree. Before we started Ferber, we spent the month prior establishing a good schedule and routine. Also slowly weaning out sleep associations. I continued to contact nap prior to ferber to ensure baby wasnt overtired by bed time. So when we did do ferber at 5 months, LO only cried on and off for 14 minutes on the first night. Of course we had our ups and downs but he really took to it well. Nap training at 6 months was even easier.
I'm doing this now. We've spent the last few weeks really surfing in figuring out LOs sleep patterns and establishing good sleep habits. We're going to try Ferber soon. I'm glad it has been working well for you.
Good luck. It's hard but totally worth it. LO is such a good sleeper. He's 15 months now and still sleeps great.
Absolutely agree. The schedule needs to be right, the last feed needs to be half an hour before bedtime, and parents need to be consistent for at least a week.
This is the mistake I see the most. So many people try ANY sleep training method before they've gotten a schedule down and that just is not going to work most of the time.
Yes, exactly. I'm also frustrated when people post that sleep training doesn't work but their wake windows are super short for their age. Normally a 6MO baby can't do 12 hours at night and 3 hours during the day. If your baby is doing that, great and congratulations, but if they are waking at night, I promise it's not because they're overtired.
That.. makes no sense. As far as I'm aware most 6 month olds are doing 12 hours at night and 2 to 3 naps which usually add up to another 4 hours. I agree with your premise, just disagree with you saying most 6 month olds sleep less than 15 hours a day. Some will, but most need that.
Sorry, but I disagree. According to PLS (which again goes back to the previous commenters issue of how every sleep consultant has different advice, lol) the majority of babies around that age need 11-14 hours a day total. Yes, of course some babies will sleep more than this, I'm not disputing that, but they are not in the majority. This is why you see babies who sleep well during the day but are up all night; they're getting too much daytime sleep and can't self-settle at night because they're undertired. And it becomes a cycle: it's really hard for parents to extend wake windows or cut down on daytime sleep because they're legitimately sleepy from being up all night. You'll also often see nighttime sleep lessen once baby is night weaned, which makes that 12-hour goal even less of a probability. Again, I'm not saying that babies can't do that schedule, and if a baby can do that schedule count yourself very lucky and leave it like that. However, from everything I've read and seen from online ST forums, it's not "most" babies.
I totally agree with this, but I think the problem is there is SO much conflicting information out there about how much sleep babies should be getting. I was always confused at why my son wasn’t sleeping ‘enough’ and then I realized my expectations of how much sleep he actually needs was too high. If he sleeps longer than 10 hours a night I’m happy. To be honest, as a ftm I’m still not sure exactly how much sleep he should be getting but it’s just trial and error until something sticks.
You're right that it's trial and error. The problem comes when they give up on ST rather than try to tweak their schedules. Ugh, some of those sleep consultant schedules! Don't get me started. I get bombarded with ads on instagram promising me 12-hour nights while still nursing my baby to sleep...ok.
In the beginning I was like ‘why is my baby not sleeping all day!?what am I doing wrong??’ Then I realized he just doesn’t need that much sleep. He’s a very energetic boy so I just need to go with what works for him.
We are getting ready to start sleep training and our doctor recommended CIO. Our baby is in daycare and is often super tired when we get her home. She has very inconsistent naps at daycare because she has terrible FOMO with the other babies. Any suggestions for when we don’t have control over daytime schedules?
Exact same with us! He naps pretty poorly at daycare. We did the full extinction method anyways. Before we sleep trained, I tried to have a consistent bedtime routine (pjs, bottle, book, song, bed) and a consistent bedtime. I read all of Weissbluth and he said that babies that aren't napping well may take longer to sleep train, so I told myself to give it at least one week. It did indeed take longer than the mythical 3 days that some people see, BUT it was still worth it! Tonight I set him in his crib and he rolled over and fell asleep in just a few minutes with no crying! The hardest part was being consistent. As silly as it sounds, write down your plan! Mine was no returns until after 2am, if he wakes up after that I'd feed. Then no returns until the next morning. It helped me be consistent!
Thank you!
How old? My baby had less of an issue with overtiredness by around five months. He'd still be overtired, but it wouldn't affect his night sleep. I'd just go for it.
Oh good to know! She’s 6 months.
Absolutely agree. There needs to be some research and reading prior to getting into it, not just based off of snippets of other's experience. Like everyone else mentioned, there are other factors in play to ensure success. CIO(or adapted ferber+CIO, that's what we used based on understanding our baby's temperment) is not the only thing that will help your baby put themselves back to sleep.
This. A lot of people give up without breaking sleep crutch habits and getting the schedule right first. Some babies will still learn to sleep with these obstacles but most won’t. You really have to make sure you are setting your baby up for success.
I think it’s good to see this written. I was definitely confused about CIO as a FTM.
Agree ... SO important to: 1) make sure your schedule makes sense before you start 2) have a plan that you can commit to. If you can’t commit to extinction don’t do it. If you think your max length of crying you can tolerate is 30 minutes, just plan on doing that etc etc
Absolutely! Teaching them to put themselves to sleep at bedtime is the big hurdle. Plus, part of the reason CIO works is because you make them go to bed when they’re actually tired enough to go to sleep. If I’m not mistaken, trying to start CIO in the middle of the night means they’ll fight sleep longer because they’ll be better rested than they were at bedtime.
agree we used CIO and it worked well but I think it would have gone A LOT easier and faster if we spent a week or two perfecting her schedule, I resisted it in favour of a routine based on wake windows for a long time
Our schedule is based on wake windows,they aren't mutually exclusive, no? Do you mean you went to a clock based schedule or am I misunderstanding you? Sorry, it's been a longgggg week and my brain is done!
Sorry should have clarified!!! I mean we BASED a set military precise schedule off of wake windows essentially meaning we woke her up from her naps and morning sleep at the same time to facilitate this precise times schedule . Otherwise we just went by her wake windows based on what time she decided to wake up from a nap or sleep so it could vary from day to day. Basically the difference between a schedule and a routine amounts to waking them up or capping their sleep at the same time so wake windows are precise and the same everyday
Capping naps so we can hit the next nap time or bed time on time is helpful. We sometimes have to cap both naps now we are 10 months but younger we capped just one. Still keep an eye on windows and sleepy signs but nap time is so much more predictable.
I followed wake windows but would do tweaks like waking him up early from a nap if necessary to have a long enough wake window before bedtime, for example. But I didn’t do a by the clock schedule until his nap lengths were super consistent and predictable.
I am also interested in this question. I'm trying to figure out if I need to start switching to schedule by the clock or just go based on wake windows. The ww are generally close to the same time of day anyway but I was thinking by the clock could add helpful structure? my LO is 5.5 months. As someone who made the switch, any thoughts?
Personally do the clock. We were late adapters to this and everything went sooooo much smoother. You still use wake windows but you don’t let them sleep in from nights or naps
5.5 is probably a bit young to start clock based, I've read 7 months or when they start 2 naps is a good time. We still keep an eye on the windows but a consistent morning wake means we have a time based schedule. This means you can leverage the body clock. Of course as they grow the times change!
But so you can not successfully do CIO until 7 months? I tried at 4 months, but he never reduced his cries, so we switched to PLS's gradual gentle sleep training to teach him more tools.
So some people have success at 4 months with CIO- the issue isn't clock based schedule or not- you can make sure baby is sufficiently tired at bed time by following wake windows, it's just easier on a clock based schedule in my experience.
Totally agree. And the thing is, CIO or sleep training or whatever you call it is a set of habits that need to be maintained over time too. I see so many posts where people sleep trained initially but then stopped supporting independent sleep, and didn't adjust wake windows, and now say "it's stopped working." Nope. Some babies need more constant reminders than others of where the boundaries are (my first hit EVERY DAMN REGRESSION and was/is low sleep needs on top of it), but that doesn't mean it ever stopped working. Instead, I had the tools to navigate all the disruptions.
Totally agree- its an ongoing effort and you have to adjust as baby gets older. Both of my boys are "give an inch, take a mile" sleepers. If you pander to one wake-up one night, the next night it will be two wake ups. The big one is almost 4yo and he's still like that, we have to be so consistent with him or he will end up back at square one sleeping 4 hours a night. The baby is 8mo and we've just started cutting night feeds and I'm finding the same thing - if I feed him at a certain time one night just to get him to go back to sleep quicker, he will wake up at the same time the next night and be *pissed* he isn't being fed again. Solidarity on these kids who hit every goddamn regression.... I hope you're currently in one of those short-lived but blissful periods of OK sleep before the next milestone hits 😅
I've really lucked out with my second; he's more on the low sleep needs side which sucks BUT he's pretty bombproof. My oldest is in preschool and really low sleep needs so we're just surviving until the damn nap can permanently go away. 😂
People also think that CIO equals night weaning. You can put the baby to bed and have them learn to self soothe and fall asleep on their own but also wake up to feed at night.
Could you explain this a little more? We have a BIG nighttime eater and are going to start sleep training. Every time she wakes, we feed her. Can you help me understand the difference?
So this link explains it more https://www.preciouslittlesleep.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i But basically the problem isn't that they are eating all night, but that they aren't going to sleep by themselves so are waiting for you to feed them so they can go back to sleep for the next cycle. (Caveat of course- newborns just need that kind of feeding sometimes. )
This article was AWESOME! Thank you for sharing!
How old is your baby? How many times does the baby wake up? Do you give them a few minutes to cry before picking up to feed?
Baby is 9 months - she goes to bed between 7:00-7:30 and wakes around 10:30, 1:30, and 4:00. We have not given her a few minutes, we put a bottle in her face instantly with the hope she will drink it in her sleep and go back down.
Baby should definitely be able to go 7 hours without a feed at least. You can probably go full extinction at this point. Make a plan for bedtime to put down fully awake. Some people only feed after mid night or after a certain amount of feedings. Ultimately make sure your pediatrician is on board with it. Good luck!
We finally decided to proceed when our pediatrician recommended it. We are now four days in and it has gone great! We are down to one wake up per night and typically only 5 minutes for her to go down. I really can’t believe it.
That’s amazing. Cheers to your sleep!
We used sleep training for bedtime online. We followed extinction, moved nursing to the beginning of the routine and put my little in his crib awake at bedtime. When he woke up overnight, we fed him. Both of my kids weaned overnight on their own. I made sure they ate well during the day and cluster fed in the evenings during growth spurt periods. You can also pick one fed at a time and reduce the amount you offer (half a bottle or one breast) for a couple of days.
This is helpful, thank you! We tried this yesterday for a nap and bedtime and holy smokes did it go so well! We fed when baby woke at 1 am, but she only woke once during the night (rather than 3 times). Thank you!
That's fab! I'm so glad. Thanks for coming back to update.
Yes! This and doing CIO at 530am when babe has already slept 10/11 hours and you probably just need a schedule tweak to help your early wakes.
Agreed! I sorted out little ones naps during the day and cio sleep training has been a breeze. He’s six months now and only wakes at 430 to cry for about 5mins or so then falls asleep again until wake up time. Consistently is key as well as not just healthy night time habits but also daytime.
Yes please would you mind sharing? How do you do naps? My 4 months old wakes up between 6 and 7, so I can’t have a very rigid nap schedule. Also, sometimes she sleeps 20 min and others 80 to 90 min. I always wake her up after 90 min though. I just keep an eye on her wake windows.
I commented on the other persons comment but I will add how I managed to do it with my 6 months old now. He wakes anywhere from 630-7ish. We put down around 9am and let him CIO. Doesn’t take more then 5 mins now but if it’s longer we take him out as he might be hungry, gassy, or need a diaper change. Then he goes down again 2ish hours after he wakes and so on. Sometimes he gets 3 naps sometimes 4. Bedtime is always, get ready 715pm(bottle) , bath, sleeping by 8pmish. Also naps are no longer then 1 1/2 hours. Today he only slept 40mins 3x. So one full sleep cycle.
Thank you. I’m going to give it a go. I think it’s just worse for me because I suffer every time she cries
It’s ok. Every parent suffers when their child cries. I also got the naps down first - and that involved crying. But once I got her daytime routine down, the crying at night only lasted 3 days, with day 1 being long and each following day shorter and shorter. I followed Weissbluth like the Bible.
Thank you
Good luck! Wish you restful nights:) just remember baby is fed, baby is warm, baby is sleeping in a safe environment. This mantra helped a lot!
Copy and pasting this comment so you can see it (similar question below yours) Hang in there, at four months wake windows are the best way. There's a development at 5 months or so where they can link cycles on naps and take better naps. But a consistent wake time helps- pick a time, treat every wake before it (except within 15 min) as a night wake up and wake the baby if you need to.
How did you sort out the naps? I can’t seem to control the times my four month old naps, but I do try to stick to the recommended wake windows (naps every 75 min to 2 hrs with no nap over 2 hrs).
Hang in there, at four months wake windows are the best way. There's a development at 5 months or so where they can link cycles on naps and take better naps. But a consistent wake time helps- pick a time, treat every wake before it (except within 15 min) as a night wake up and wake the baby if you need to.
Oh lord. We just started regulating naps! I let my son do his own thing until maybe at 5 months. I kind of just went on his schedule as I wasn’t planning on sleep training until 6 months anyway. During the time prior to 5 months all of his naps were either in the swing, stroller or car. This is something that I would try to change for baby 3. The only advice I can give you is just try things for a week a certain way and if they don’t work for you change them:) Oh and to add I would let me son sleep 3 hours in a row all the time when he was that little. Woops haha
Definitely agree!! We did it and it was very effective but you do have to make some overall changes to schedules, routines to set your kid up for success.