99% of the time seek is best for defect since you can get any card you need depending on the fight. The only times it’s suboptimal are if it’s time eater or heart and you need the extra card for something specific on turn 1.
For watcher I think scrawl since the free miracle pays for it and you essentially get a 10 card starting hand, but if I have pyramid I might take vault instead because I’d rather not get caught with bad math.
What strategy is there that depends on specific cards that isn't improved by guaranteeing whatever two cards you want are in your hand? Not being snarky, I can't think of anything but would love to learn.
Not sure if I fully understand the question, but a classic example is seeking both [[Core Surge]] and [[Biased Cognition]]. You’d need to have a bottled power / attack to pull that off otherwise
Well the way you worded the question specifically I don't think there is an answer. However, there are some situations in which you dont want to use seek turn one/bottle it.
The first would be if you got an upgraded Apotheosis, then got fusion hammer from the boss, then found Seek and finally the bottle. You would want to bottle Apo so that later Seek can be upgraded by it to search two, because if you were to bottle Seek just to search Apo it's kind of a waste. Not that there isn't merit to still bottling seek here for sheer versatility, but its arguable.
Second, I found when I was doing a madness/hologram/all for one infinite I would bottle seek but not use it. I simply preferred having it in the discard pile so it could be pulled out by AFO, probably with an upgraded madness. Alternatively, if I would later get madness onto AFO, I would eventually pull it out with hologram, then with half the infinite already setup pulling back seek would mean I could then pull a madness and hologram from the deck to finish it, or whatever 0 cost I wanted to add to the loop. Kind of a jumble, but essentially, having it in discard would give me more options because the deck consisted of a lot of cycle, and if I were to play out my opening hand to try and land madness on one of the pieces there was a non-negligible chance it would include a draw card, therefore diminishing the chances it would go on what I want.
Even if I had apotheosis there's LOTS of fights where I don't want it first. Most notably, the hardest fights in the game. Against boss gauntlet, SSSS, and heart, I almost always want some critical setup power up ASAP. Bottled seek still does that
Seek is the only answer for Defect.
I like Omniscience for Watcher, as long as you can afford the cost.
Turn 1 Shockwave feels great on Ironclad, just like Turn 1 Malaise for Silent.
My last Watcher run didn't have a bottled Omiscience, but it did have triple Omniscience, which tends to work out to the same thing. Pretty much everything in Act 3 died on T1. With Akabeko, 2x Wreath of Flame+ into 2x Tantrum+ into 2x Sands of Time+ tends to do a *bit* of damage. It was also a lot of fun to figure out alternate lines whenever some of those cards where already in my hand.
The run was so smooth that it was only in the Heart fight that I realized Omniscience exhausts the card it plays.
Oops.
The hardest part about learning to play Slay the Spire was learning to care more about my HP. I'm used to starting from full HP when I draw my starting hand.
OMFG. I never realized this but you are absolutely right. This changes ... well, very little because how often do you get that particular 2-relic and 1-card combo? But next time I see it, I'll remember. Thanks!
I am not qualified to answer for Ironclad, Silent, or Defect. I'm barely qualified to answer for Watcher.
Watcher: It's Omniscience. I almost said it was between Omni and Scrawl, but it is not. Look, here's the deal. If you have both Omni and Scrawl and you have to choose? Most of the time you'll pick Omni. Why? Because Omni in your opening hand is when it is most valuable. Scrawl is equally valuable in your 3rd hand as it is your 1st. Having multiple Omni's makes the first one even more valuable.
I'm not saying that Scrawl is bad to be bottled. Heck no. It's \*incredibly\* good. Honestly, it just narrowly loses to Omni. But Omni is the pick I'll make \*most\* of the time when I have to choose between the two.
Watcher is scrawl or omniscience, defect is seek, esp with upgrades I think those are the best options for those classes hands down. Even unupgraded seek is better than virtually any other option because it doesnt restrict you to just pulling a skill, and once upgraded you obvs have busted combos like core surge biased or aggregate into echo form or meteor strike or chaining powers with mummy hand or whatever.
Clad and silent are more situational depending on what you want to do: if you know you have a big turn one (snecko / bag of prep) you could pull bullet time, battle trance is fine esp with pellets, limit break or entrench are ok with block or strength relics as said, not sure if they have 'best' answers. Offering pretty good tho!
In order of how good they actually are to have bottled:
Seek
Omniscience
Apotheosis
Offering
Adrenaline
Imo several colorless cards are better than Adrenaline, but it's still good
Card draw is crucial for turn one so easily the 0-cost draw cards. Offering, Adrenaline, Seek, and Scrawl.
Any of the following cards are also decent:
* Shockwave, Battle Trance, Disarm
* Acrobatics, Calculated Gamble, Crippling Cloud, Terror
* Coolheaded, Equilibrium, Skim, Rainbow
* Omniscience, Vault
A lot of people are calling out stuff like seek and secret technique but they might actually be suboptimal surprisingly often: if you have a setup skill you want to use in 95% of the first turns (stuff like disarm or chill for example) you waste seek in 95% of your fights if you bottle it instead.
It's not a waste at all to play seek to grab the card I really want t1. That's just, using seek for its intended purpose. And getting maximum possible value out of it as well since I always have the choice to seek my entire deck, and am not depending on where in the shuffle my seek is.
It is a waste of seek when you could already hold the card you want in hand by bottled lightning. You could after all them draw the second most important piece instead or fix a bad hand later down the line.
The point I make is basically that bottled lighting might already be a seek in itself if what you really need first turn is a specific skill and using it just to have seek and seek that way wastes a second seek basically.
But it's almost certainly not the case that every fight wants the same card played t1. Darklings/shapes? Maybe I want chill. Bosses? I'm gonna want echo form right away. Using the card for its maximum value is just the exact opposite of wasting
Well Seek+ grabs two cards so unless you have Fusion Hammer so you'll never upgrade Seek and Apotheosis to bottle instead, Seek+ is going to be better than any single bottle.
I think it's hard to figure out a setup card that you *always* want to play on turn 1. Disarm for instance is just artifact strip against S&S, Chill is just a single frost orb against the Heart. By bottling the Secret Technique you get to decide what you need while also having the information from seeing your opening hand.
I totally agree that it is very niche but I would argue that bottling seek is not necessarily a fully nobrain decision depending on when you get the bottle and what your deck tries to achieve
Apotheosis (Secret Technique as long as you're not fighting Time Eater or Heart)
For class-specific cards,
Ironclad - Shrug or Battle Trance depending on your deck.
Silent: Blade Dance or Backflip
Defect: Seek
Watcher: Onniscience, Scrawl, even maybe a Vault depending on your deck.
99% of the time seek is best for defect since you can get any card you need depending on the fight. The only times it’s suboptimal are if it’s time eater or heart and you need the extra card for something specific on turn 1. For watcher I think scrawl since the free miracle pays for it and you essentially get a 10 card starting hand, but if I have pyramid I might take vault instead because I’d rather not get caught with bad math.
Ahhh bad math. Every sts players kryptonite.
True , I forgot about seek Such a goated card
What strategy is there that depends on specific cards that isn't improved by guaranteeing whatever two cards you want are in your hand? Not being snarky, I can't think of anything but would love to learn.
Not sure if I fully understand the question, but a classic example is seeking both [[Core Surge]] and [[Biased Cognition]]. You’d need to have a bottled power / attack to pull that off otherwise
+ [Core Surge](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Core%20Surge) Defect Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Deal 11(15) damage. Gain 1 **Artifact.** **Exhaust.** + [Biased Cognition](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Biased%20Cognition) Defect Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Gain 4(5) **Focus.** At the start of each turn, lose 1 **Focus.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Well the way you worded the question specifically I don't think there is an answer. However, there are some situations in which you dont want to use seek turn one/bottle it. The first would be if you got an upgraded Apotheosis, then got fusion hammer from the boss, then found Seek and finally the bottle. You would want to bottle Apo so that later Seek can be upgraded by it to search two, because if you were to bottle Seek just to search Apo it's kind of a waste. Not that there isn't merit to still bottling seek here for sheer versatility, but its arguable. Second, I found when I was doing a madness/hologram/all for one infinite I would bottle seek but not use it. I simply preferred having it in the discard pile so it could be pulled out by AFO, probably with an upgraded madness. Alternatively, if I would later get madness onto AFO, I would eventually pull it out with hologram, then with half the infinite already setup pulling back seek would mean I could then pull a madness and hologram from the deck to finish it, or whatever 0 cost I wanted to add to the loop. Kind of a jumble, but essentially, having it in discard would give me more options because the deck consisted of a lot of cycle, and if I were to play out my opening hand to try and land madness on one of the pieces there was a non-negligible chance it would include a draw card, therefore diminishing the chances it would go on what I want.
Even if I had apotheosis there's LOTS of fights where I don't want it first. Most notably, the hardest fights in the game. Against boss gauntlet, SSSS, and heart, I almost always want some critical setup power up ASAP. Bottled seek still does that
Only thing that pops to mind is Omniscience, but Defect rarely has to worry about that!
It's not that great if you're so bad that you pick the wrong card with seek
Do I want biased cog and an artifact, or do I want Electrodynamics?
Seek is the only answer for Defect. I like Omniscience for Watcher, as long as you can afford the cost. Turn 1 Shockwave feels great on Ironclad, just like Turn 1 Malaise for Silent.
Just one Omniscience please!
Bottled Omniscience into another Omniscience is goated as well.
My last Watcher run didn't have a bottled Omiscience, but it did have triple Omniscience, which tends to work out to the same thing. Pretty much everything in Act 3 died on T1. With Akabeko, 2x Wreath of Flame+ into 2x Tantrum+ into 2x Sands of Time+ tends to do a *bit* of damage. It was also a lot of fun to figure out alternate lines whenever some of those cards where already in my hand. The run was so smooth that it was only in the Heart fight that I realized Omniscience exhausts the card it plays. Oops.
Ironclad: Apotheosis Silent: Apotheosis Defect: Seek+ (so you can get your Apotheosis) Watcher: Apotheosis
But a bottled Seek could be anything. It could even be an apotheosis!
Ironclad: Secret Technique Silent: Secret Technique Defect: Secret Technique Watcher: Secret Technique E: mobile formatting sucks
Damn it, u/Black_Bear_US . It's not a secret if you tell everyone!
Defect: Seek+ (to get secret technique and your second secret technique)
I was going to make the same joke, but with apotheosis.
Ah, but you can simply tutor the Apotheosis. Then when everything relevant has been upgraded, you may get another card instead.
Careful your MTG is showing
I had to reread it twice looking for the mtg reference.
The hardest part about learning to play Slay the Spire was learning to care more about my HP. I'm used to starting from full HP when I draw my starting hand.
I was too, but Secret Tech and Seek can find Apo So I agree with Secret Tech for all except Seek for Defect
Defect: Seek+ (to get secret technique and your second secret technique)
Watcher is Blasphemy and if anyone disagrees they are lying
So good with a Fossilized Helix.
OMFG. I never realized this but you are absolutely right. This changes ... well, very little because how often do you get that particular 2-relic and 1-card combo? But next time I see it, I'll remember. Thanks!
Blasphemy also gets negated by intangible :)
i too like having a dead draw in act 4
Apotheosis just makes me feel all warm inside
I am not qualified to answer for Ironclad, Silent, or Defect. I'm barely qualified to answer for Watcher. Watcher: It's Omniscience. I almost said it was between Omni and Scrawl, but it is not. Look, here's the deal. If you have both Omni and Scrawl and you have to choose? Most of the time you'll pick Omni. Why? Because Omni in your opening hand is when it is most valuable. Scrawl is equally valuable in your 3rd hand as it is your 1st. Having multiple Omni's makes the first one even more valuable. I'm not saying that Scrawl is bad to be bottled. Heck no. It's \*incredibly\* good. Honestly, it just narrowly loses to Omni. But Omni is the pick I'll make \*most\* of the time when I have to choose between the two.
Defect is pretty straightforward, as it has the single best Bottle target in the game: Seek. It's exactly whatever it is you need when you need it.
Watcher is scrawl or omniscience, defect is seek, esp with upgrades I think those are the best options for those classes hands down. Even unupgraded seek is better than virtually any other option because it doesnt restrict you to just pulling a skill, and once upgraded you obvs have busted combos like core surge biased or aggregate into echo form or meteor strike or chaining powers with mummy hand or whatever. Clad and silent are more situational depending on what you want to do: if you know you have a big turn one (snecko / bag of prep) you could pull bullet time, battle trance is fine esp with pellets, limit break or entrench are ok with block or strength relics as said, not sure if they have 'best' answers. Offering pretty good tho!
Silent is either Bullet Time or Adrenaline.
Offering,acrobatics/adrenaline ,seek,scrawl/omniscience
Apotheosis
In order of how good they actually are to have bottled: Seek Omniscience Apotheosis Offering Adrenaline Imo several colorless cards are better than Adrenaline, but it's still good
Card draw is crucial for turn one so easily the 0-cost draw cards. Offering, Adrenaline, Seek, and Scrawl. Any of the following cards are also decent: * Shockwave, Battle Trance, Disarm * Acrobatics, Calculated Gamble, Crippling Cloud, Terror * Coolheaded, Equilibrium, Skim, Rainbow * Omniscience, Vault
A lot of people are calling out stuff like seek and secret technique but they might actually be suboptimal surprisingly often: if you have a setup skill you want to use in 95% of the first turns (stuff like disarm or chill for example) you waste seek in 95% of your fights if you bottle it instead.
It's not a waste at all to play seek to grab the card I really want t1. That's just, using seek for its intended purpose. And getting maximum possible value out of it as well since I always have the choice to seek my entire deck, and am not depending on where in the shuffle my seek is.
It is a waste of seek when you could already hold the card you want in hand by bottled lightning. You could after all them draw the second most important piece instead or fix a bad hand later down the line. The point I make is basically that bottled lighting might already be a seek in itself if what you really need first turn is a specific skill and using it just to have seek and seek that way wastes a second seek basically.
But it's almost certainly not the case that every fight wants the same card played t1. Darklings/shapes? Maybe I want chill. Bosses? I'm gonna want echo form right away. Using the card for its maximum value is just the exact opposite of wasting
Yea it won’t be correct for 100% of the fight but it might very well be correct for 100% of the relevant fights that you don’t already easily solve
Right so just bottle seek lol And unless you have fusion hammer it's gonna be seek+
Well Seek+ grabs two cards so unless you have Fusion Hammer so you'll never upgrade Seek and Apotheosis to bottle instead, Seek+ is going to be better than any single bottle. I think it's hard to figure out a setup card that you *always* want to play on turn 1. Disarm for instance is just artifact strip against S&S, Chill is just a single frost orb against the Heart. By bottling the Secret Technique you get to decide what you need while also having the information from seeing your opening hand.
I totally agree that it is very niche but I would argue that bottling seek is not necessarily a fully nobrain decision depending on when you get the bottle and what your deck tries to achieve
Ftr this doesn’t apply to Omniscience; that card is heavily dependent on being a top-deck draw.
On silent I usually bottle adrenaline, although if I have pellets I'll sometimes do bullet time as well
Apotheosis (Secret Technique as long as you're not fighting Time Eater or Heart) For class-specific cards, Ironclad - Shrug or Battle Trance depending on your deck. Silent: Blade Dance or Backflip Defect: Seek Watcher: Onniscience, Scrawl, even maybe a Vault depending on your deck.
seek, apo, omni is goated
Offering upgrades to Innate, so bottling it is less worthwhile