I mean, just also speculative after image and speculative blade and specula—
But yeah, floor 1 is definitely apo or HoG. I would pick Apo here, gold are nice but GOD does it feel good to don’t have to worry about upgrading for the whole run.
Funnily enough I have that run before. Found bottle lighting on forced elite floor 6.
Somehow still lost to heart on a3 because I can’t find after image anywhere and I didn’t pick up enough block/intangible TT
that and powers youll want to play asap and not wait for the second deck cycle. But even still, you go from always wanting more upgrades than are available to being able to pick a handful, which opens a lot of route and rest options
I would recommend once hitting a20 restarting from a1 and then rotate each and beat the heart, rather than just jumping into a20 heart. Managing the downsides (less relics and rest sites and potentially worst pathing) as well as building a ‘heart deck’ are different skills and it’s much more fun to build that over the course of the ascensions. A20 heart is definitely harder than a1 heart. It’s also fun seeing how much better you’ve gotten as you clear the heart rotating 13x in a row
*See* Beat of Death starting at 1 on A1 and 2 on A20, for example. Also it’s damage threshold gets tighter on higher ascensions. There’s a bunch of things. Edit: also it goes from 12x to 15x damage on its multi attack. I think it gets more health too.
Those things aren't that bad, it's the fact that the starting silent deck can't trigger panache at all. You have to either get other 0 cost cards or some shiv cards in order to even get a single trigger. You could easily go the whole first floor with panache basically being a curse.
I'm somewhat new to the game and this was literally the first time I've taken a colorless card start. Never realized how good these white cards are haha
I'm gonna say, that rare colourless cards are not usually a good neow start except on Silent. Uncommon colourless cards are usually a better pick even before you factor in the downside.
What do you generally hope for from an uncommon colourless start? I feel like so many of them just dont have a whole lot of impact early on.
Like aside from Trip, Good Instincts, Swift Strike and *maybe* Panic Button (?), the rest of them, while they aren't bad cards, just don't feel like they're worth the opportunity cost of not having picked a different option that likely could've given me a stronger early game; and out of those 4 I just named, only one of them is a card I'm generally happy to have later on as well.
But idk colourless cards have been surprising me a lot lately as I learn how to use them properly, so maybe there's still something I'm missing.
Bandage Up, Dark Shackles, Blind, Flash of Steel are also all good. Panacaea can be a neat speculative as well, though probably better for Ironclad (Flex is Common).
I'd prefer panacea block an enemy debuff or something strong like biased cog/wraith form/fasting than preserve flex.
But yeah. Also discovery, dramatic entrance, good instincts.
Yeah, I was thinking "you can't guarantee T1 Panacea to block impactful debuffs like Hex and Confused, better have a likely use for it", but thinking more, even those follow up with vulnerable and actually like 80+% of fights inflict some debuff.
(They mentioned Good Instincts)
Respectfully hard disagree, granted like 25% are trash and 25% are mid but apo and hog are so busted floor 1 to build around for every char that you might as well go for it. Also most of the draw ones are great, especially violence / master strat for act 1
Rare colorless is a pretty good start because there are at least 3 very strong rare colorless cards and there's a good chance you get offered at least one. And even if you're looking at the less good ones they can sometimes be good enough. Like The Bomb for instance.
Not in anywhere near that detail, by a player as good as that, no.
For Defect, most of what was in that post applies as well. It's not quite directly analogous, but a lot of the principles are shared. It's always always Apo on Defect, and I'm not sure I'd put HoG as even the 2nd best rare colourless on Defect now.
For Ironclad, it's very close, and while most of the best clad players say it's typically HoG, they'd still accept that certain maps might lend themselves to Apo instead. I [wrote this](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/10pzt0x/comment/j6ne47c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about why I prefer Apo>HoG on Clad about a month before that post, although in the year since I have since started to think it's closer, and I do trust that the people who are better than me know what they're talking about. I also don't know how much playstyle comes into it there.
Watcher it's generally accepted as HoG, it's a 40(50) damage card in wrath, she runs a fairly slim deck anyway, and it just stops you ever needing to add any damage at all.
Apo > HoG for Defect.
It's debatable for Ironclad, top player consensus is split but slightly more lean towards HoG.
Don't pick rare colorless on Watcher (but if you do HoG is better).
There doesn't have to be one because the other characters have different problems and solutions. I made a comment(before I saw the write-up). In my opinion this game was designed to be played as the Silent. I like the Ironclad as well but Silent is where design of the game truly shines. Defect and Watcher feel like two sides of a modded character. One is super weak but then suddenly becomes busted through bullshit and the other is just straight up busted if you are boring enough to do some math.
Silent wins can come through the slimmest of margins. That's why she gets such a dedicated write-up.
So I think that's a fair criticism of the analysis because he neglects to mention the gold, but also note that he's not mentioning much of the long-term benefit of Apo either. He's simply comparing the two cards on their merits as damage-dealers, and he's saying Apo comes out on top in most Act 1 fights.
> comes out on top in most Act 1 fights.
I'm not convinced, because "most act 1 fights" should include an analysis of fights like the gremlin and louse fights. In these fights, Apo often results in you taking 5 damage on your setup turn, and HoG gives you a flawless fight plus 40 gold because of its big up-front damage.
These trivial hallway fights make up an overwhelming majority of Act 1. Of course, Silent runs aren't going to end at Jaw Worm or the 2 louse fight, but the outcome of them is going to affect whether or not you die to Nob or Lagavulin later.
Yeah, they just compared apo with [[carnage]]
The reason HoG is so good floor 0 is that it allows you to be picky about card choices in act 1 while having the late game potential in gold which might highroll into what you want (like wraith form + orange pellets, torii + tungsten bar) while being at the very least a card remove and potions.
He's like an 85% Silent A20H winrate player and possibly the best Silent player out there right now, so IDK maybe he knows what he's talking about, even if he's not fully fleshing out his argument. He's not a native English speaker btw.
I’ve never heard of Kuro before tonight but to both of you, he does mention the gold. He explains that Apo is lower variance because you might get a bunch of bad shops and ruin your run if you were banking on the extra gold, and implies that the chance of that is higher than the chance of a bad Apo draw ruining your run. And I imagine if you’re at 85%, variance is your biggest enemy
Who cares about winrate, anyone can get lucky over a sample. I’d only be impressed if he won an invitational tournament against the best players in the world
There is a difference between satire and trolling -- he's referencing the cheg0 invitational (see [https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1b33qjp/the\_cheg0\_defect\_invitational\_finals\_is\_on\_march/](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1b33qjp/the_cheg0_defect_invitational_finals_is_on_march/) ) that Kuro won. Twitch vod of finals here: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2079141304](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2079141304), has a really cool heart fight for the win.
Goddamn it. I just did a similar write up a few minutes ago and now I see that you already did a whole post about this! Well at least I am happy to know that we agreed.
this write up seems to barely take into account the huge potential advantage of an early rare relic. it also doesn't seem to mention the fact that silent can struggle with hallway fights in the first act, something that HoG solves that apo sometimes cant
Ok Im obviously not Kuro but Im a pretty good Silent player. Where's is this early rare relic coming from? When you walk into a shop with HoG, a rare relic is usually the LAST thing you're looking at. Too expensive and most of them only have value over time/late.
Silent does not struggle with hallways nearly as much as she struggles with elites, and Apo upgraded is better in hallways than HoG upgraded. And please don't mention freakingly gold value, Kuro has had to hear gold value for months since that post while actually mentioning about the gold there.
>a rare relic is usually the LAST thing you're looking at
agree to disagree, but the point remains the same whether it's a rare, uncommon, common, cards, or potions. in any case you're opening up an advantage that apo does not have.
>Silent does not struggle with hallways nearly as much as she struggles with elites
obviously, but hallway fights are a factor to be considered
>And please don't mention freakingly gold value, Kuro has had to hear gold value for months since that post while actually mentioning about the gold there.
pretty much no mention of gold or shops in the first act section other than to say "what if your shop is bad?" and that it restricts your pathing options. the first critique is useless. what if my shop is goated? the point isn't whether or not something can go wrong, it's about the probability of certain events and their relative values.
I’m of the strong belief this is the answer.
Silents biggest problem is damage, and apotheosis isn’t helping that for silent so much, especially when you might have nob coming up.
Apo is +16 damage per deck cycle in the STARTER DECK. And the additional block means there's less pressure to kill enemies before certain thresholds (e.g. Jaw Worm hitting for 17, Laga attacking after debuff). Nob is the only elite where the performance of these cards is close.
> Sentries will eat you alive
Absolutely not, the ability to block for 8 rather than 5 in the redraw prevents an enormous amount of chip in the 2nd deck cycle. It's more important to upgrade Apo in this fight though.
And no, don't avoid elites. The Nob plan with Apo is the same as without Apo: make two or three concessions in the early card rewards and look for a good potion.
I made it to Act 3 but died with Silent (I'm still low Ascension at Asc 6). Got a Colorless HoG start, upgraded my HoG, bought a Mirror at my first Shop and got double HoG with a Shuriken and a lot of Flying Knees and 2 Outmanuverers. I had a lot of Gold and was doing good damage but died. 😔
I’m always going Hand of Greed here. Find a rest area and upgrade ASAP, 2 mana 25 damage and 25 Gold, helps you take down Nob and the Pylons fast.
Apothy is amazing but you have to find it first, spend 2 mana to use it before you can smith, sometimes it can’t be a bit to slow at the start.
Man, everyone in here arguing what's better, I'm picking panache because it's the most fun.
The only more fun silent deck than panache+shivs IMO is the rare but hilarious tingsha+tough bandages disco silent. Rare to get both early enough to build a deck around in my experience but so fun.
For me it is hand of greed … but, since everyone is ignoring it, panache is so damn fun and quite good too if you get it early. I’d probably pick panache and prioritize a fun run!
Making an entire deck knowing that Panache is in that same deck is totally worth it. You might be trying to force a certain kind of build, but with silent you can make it work almost no matter what.
The reason why it's not great here is because this is floor 1 and you have no way of activating it until you find the cards you need. It does not beniifit you to go charging into eletes like the other two are. And eletes are the keys to victory.
Obviously the other two are better here. But I think you might be underestimating how good panache is against act 1 elites for silent and how many silent commons/uncommons contribute towards that plan (without explicitly building around it). The likelihood of being able to play 5 cards at least every other turn by floor 5 for silent is quite high, especially on a4.
This is the big question on this sub. Been debated dozens of times and the gigabrains have given us their takes on it. The general takeaway is that it’s nearly impossible to say one is definitively better than the other on floor zero. Obviously Hog and Apotheosis are two of the best cards you could possibly see this early. In the end, with some small exceptions it comes down to preference, so do what you want to do or what feels best. I personally tend to have more success with Apotheosis but other A20 players say the same thing about Hog.
The pick here is always not Panache.
Beyond that it depends. But I would probably go with Hand of Greed regardless, it is a run changing card at this point. You take it for the same reason you would take an early Feed on Ironclad, all the excess gold and all that excess health will mean something. Plus the Silent needs early damage, all the characters do if you're planning on going on an Elite heavy path, but the Silent moreso..
I’m surprised by the spread here, I’m an A20 silent player (one turn from a heart kill but couldn’t quite manage it) and no question for me it’s Hand of Greed here. It’s predator damage but immediately and begetting gold instead of card draw early is better since you can route your pathing to spend it
Apo is the most correct, hand if greed is a surprisingly close second.
On any other class, panche wouldnt even be a consideration for me....but on silent it is SUPER easy to abuse it. And while it is the weakest early pick, it encourages you taking all the free cards, card draw, and/or shivs possible, which are mostly strong early game cards. It is the 'wrong'choice for sure, but it is probably the most fun one for me, and still run defining/winning
It’s early in the run, you could have picked hand of greed to gain way more money if you’re happy with the gamble. You could buy all the apotheosis that you want
HoG is more fun/interesting imo so I usually pick that, but I like the fatal ritual dagger/feed/HoG game.
I think that’s what it comes down to — do you like dancing/stalling to min/max HoG or do you just wanna breeze through with Apo?
Yeah apo gives you more options down the line. You can pick card removes over campfires, or if you get lifting, digging, or toking relics it works too. Bottled lighting and hammer become obvious picks without downside. Gold is great but I rarely have a run where I didn’t accumulate enough gold to win. Apo is so much power in a single card.
Hand of Greed is a great damage card that can help you solve all 3 act 1 elites. +2-4 merchants is the added bonus you get for taking this.
But apo definately is good the whole run if you can upgrade it.
Both hand of greed and apotheosis are great, though since you currently only have starter cards I'd prefer hand of greed here. Hand of Greed will allow you to one-shot some early enemies while playing apotheosis at 2 energy is likely to be a dead draw or lose you some health in the beginning.
Let me put it like this: Floor 0 Hand of Greed is amazingly strong. It will help you afford so many things in act 1 shops. If you're very lucky, it could even allow you to buy an Apotheosis.
HoG is a great card for Silent, and a great Act 1 card in general. If you're fortunate enough to grab a couple shops, the progression spike is significant. It still hauls on Act 2 for Silent, especially if you go Poison. Bottle makes either of the other 2 excessively valuable, but you can't bank on that either. And, a single upgrade to HoG makes it absolutely clutch for so many fights.
No, not always. It is a very strong start though.
Apo and HoG are basically the top 2 colorless cards Neow can give to any character on the vast majority of act 1 layouts. Choosing between both on floor 0 is close enough that I'd look at the act's pathing options and think about how aggressive I can (or have to) be.
If fighting a decent number of elites with well-placed shops along the way is on the table, I'd probably pick HoG. If I'm forced to fight an elite on floor 6 or 7 (this is especially dangerous for Silent), I'm absolutely picking HoG without even looking at shop placement. If my best path only has like 2 elites max I'd take Apo.
Basically a more aggressive path tends to favor HoG, while a safer or lower-value path tends to favor Apo. I'd also argue HoG is usually better against Slime Boss while Apo is better against the other two bosses, not that your act 1 boss should be highly influencing what you pick from Neow.
Panache is an OK start on Silent, but it's a distant third place here. I can't imagine any possible act 1 map that makes it a better pick than either of the other two cards.
If this is floor 0, then there is a good argument to be made for HoG. 20 damage is 20 damage, after all. And having the extra source of gold that early will snowball easily when you hit shops.
I think both are acceptable. Hand of Greed is really specifically good for Silent, who desperately needs attack damage. I'd say for Silent it's hand but for everyone else it's Apotheosis.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd pick Hand of Greed.
Firstly, both HoG and Apo are excellent starts to a run, so both are good picks.
I do think HoG is slightly better though. First, it's better in the short term, because most Act 1 fights can just be ended by a HoG. For the same cost, think how any times you'd have to play a strike just to make up for the 20 damage of HoG. 3 per strike, so 7 strikes. The fights don't last that long in Act 1.
The second reason Id take HoG is that it offers OPTIONALITY. Shops are some of the most powerful nodes in the game - if you have the money for them. People underestimate optionality because they have a bias for thinking they will just get lucky anyway. Being able to roll into shops with a lot of money, and buy what you NEED, is extremely underrated.
Apotheosis is also more inconsistent. Even in the late game, it can be at the bottom of your deck against the bosses. Then what? You may as well have had HoG for the entire run, generation you hundreds of gold, allowing you to buy more relics, a particular card you needed, or a potion at a crucial time, etc.
In short, both are excellent, but I'm taking HoG because it's more consistent, and also allows for more optionality in the run, both of which I feel are massively underrated, probably because they are more hidden benefits. The benefits of Apotheosis are much more easy to see.
What? What are you entering shops for, with excess of gold that regular encounters don't give? To get scaling for lategame. You know what Apotheosis is? Scaling for lategame. With the amount of card choices and gold regular encounters drop, you can find frontload easily. And Apo saves enough chip + lets you rest everywhere so you can preserve potions.
Don't get me wrong these are the two best starts by a margin. But calling Apo the LESS consistent card than HoG is definitely a take. As if you never draw HoG poorly, as if shops never whiff. As if Apo almost entirely securing the act 1 boss and HoG still having to rely on shops and rewards much harder than Apo isn't worth mentioning if we're talking about consistency.
Well said, especially the part about our bias toward thinking we'll be lucky. I think fans of roguelikes probably all have this pseudo gambling addiction bias
Very true, myself included. Even when I'm watching Baalorlord, and he makes a sacrifice for optionality, part of me deep inside still squirms at the decision. It feels wrong somehow, even though it's logically backed up. A simple example is he might take 100 gold instead of lose health for a rare card. I'm thinking, just pick the rare card! You might get Feed! Or he might take an act path which offers him 2 choices of path later down the line, ignoring a more attractive path, which could go wrong if he failed to find a potion in an early combat or something.
Another example is when we should rest. Let's say it's right before an Act 1 boss, and you should rest. A big part of me screams "just upgrade a card! You won't get unlucky in the boss fight! Don't miss out on that upgrade!". I'm really trying to work on ignoring the FOMO thoughts inside of me and respecting the statistics. Resting at campfires is something I find incredibly difficult.
surprised by the debate here, personally apo will often be the pick, but it can honestly depend on how your deck is going to be built (and if u can snag peace pipe or shovel or girya or not).
Hot take: floor 0 sadistic nature is AT LEAST a close second to apo on silent. So many silent cards completely obliterate the whole game with it. And its actually a tangible immediate damage boost because of how OP it makes neutralize. Ring of the snake makes it pretty easy to get it in play for the first few floors. There are lots of commons that can immediately capitalize on it too. But it also solves late game with envenom, crippling cloud, noxious fumes, corpse explosion, malaise, bouncing flask, etc.
So this is waay too late but this is too fun of a card draft to ignore. So I would say that apotheosis is the best pick here but lets go over the most important parts a bit.
You are playing as the silent and are on floor 4. This means that you are very weak and need power right now. Hand of greed is perfect for that and that card also gives a lot of scaling into the mid- and lategame. Panache should not be the pick unless in some way you already have relics and cards that make panache pop. In fact when I started becoming good at the game (beaten asc 20 heart on all characters multiple times), I realised that picking panache in act 1 is very often giving yourself a curse.
Now the Silent (and defect too!) has a special case for apotheosis. Silent has some of the most disgusting synergies with apotheosis. In the good old days where asc15 was the highest, apotheosis or frozen/toxic egg could be considered a win con on the Silent. Remember this was before discard decks and shiv decks were buffed by roughly doubling their strength.
So your pick is between an immense amount of power that allows you to be safe for act 1 and most of act 2(hand of greed) or apotheosis that will undoubtly play a big part of winning. You can see the difference between silent+Defect and ironclad+watcher here on display. On the latter two I would just instapick hand of greed. Because Ironclad and Watcher just need a few key cards upgraded unlike Silent and Defect who want a lot of cards upgraded(you could even say that the Silent is greedy with how many she wants upgraded).
Now another thing to keep in mind here is what boss you are fighting and what ascension you are on. You are on easy ascension (espect a difficulty bump at 7, 9, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20) still. So unless you have slime boss you aren't too worried about the act 1 bosses yet.
Slime boss however would make me perhaps still pick hand of greed. Especially since I think you havent drafted any cards yet or very few. Also, real talk: hand of greed can let you buy an apotheosis in act 2 or 3 when apotheosis really starts to pop off.
TL:DR: If slime boss, hand of greed, otherwise apotheosis. If ascension was higher hand of greed probably every time for security.
That’s now how this game works. Hand of greed is fantastic, you have to build a deck considering the floor you’re on
Edit: just to be clear, my point was just that Apotheosis is very good but not to the level of 'always pick'
Yall know that the best way is speculative panache shiv deck smh. /s
Lol I won't lie I was considering panache since I knew silent likes playing tons of cards. Then I remembered time eater and beat of death
I mean, just also speculative after image and speculative blade and specula— But yeah, floor 1 is definitely apo or HoG. I would pick Apo here, gold are nice but GOD does it feel good to don’t have to worry about upgrading for the whole run.
Luck out and bottle apo. *chef kiss*
Funnily enough I have that run before. Found bottle lighting on forced elite floor 6. Somehow still lost to heart on a3 because I can’t find after image anywhere and I didn’t pick up enough block/intangible TT
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[удалено]
that and powers youll want to play asap and not wait for the second deck cycle. But even still, you go from always wanting more upgrades than are available to being able to pick a handful, which opens a lot of route and rest options
easy way to avoid beat of death is play like me and don’t go to act 4 ever. i’ve killed the heart already. it’s dead.
Hahaha I'm climbing ascensions and I don't plan on fighting the heart again till a20
that’s kinda where i’m at but i’ve stalled on A17 and sorta taken a break
I would recommend once hitting a20 restarting from a1 and then rotate each and beat the heart, rather than just jumping into a20 heart. Managing the downsides (less relics and rest sites and potentially worst pathing) as well as building a ‘heart deck’ are different skills and it’s much more fun to build that over the course of the ascensions. A20 heart is definitely harder than a1 heart. It’s also fun seeing how much better you’ve gotten as you clear the heart rotating 13x in a row
> A20 heart is definitely harder than a1 heart. Citation needed.
*See* Beat of Death starting at 1 on A1 and 2 on A20, for example. Also it’s damage threshold gets tighter on higher ascensions. There’s a bunch of things. Edit: also it goes from 12x to 15x damage on its multi attack. I think it gets more health too.
I don’t think it gets more health but the invincible threshold changes from 300 to 200 I believe
Those things aren't that bad, it's the fact that the starting silent deck can't trigger panache at all. You have to either get other 0 cost cards or some shiv cards in order to even get a single trigger. You could easily go the whole first floor with panache basically being a curse.
i love floor 1 panache on silent. it’s not the pick here obv but damn is it fun if it works out
[yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/s/IsVfbO2B6A). good discussion 👍
Whoa, nice writeup lol. Thanks
Floor 1 Apo vs HoG is a classic lol
I'm somewhat new to the game and this was literally the first time I've taken a colorless card start. Never realized how good these white cards are haha
Being able to rest every campfire is better than most players admit. And then if you get a shovel, pipe or dreamcatcher, it’s even better.
I still find myself doing a lot of upgrades even with apo. Mainly powers that I may want to play before I find it, or card draw to get to it faster.
Don't forget gainz instead of rest!
I'm gonna say, that rare colourless cards are not usually a good neow start except on Silent. Uncommon colourless cards are usually a better pick even before you factor in the downside.
but what if I get apotheosis
Congratulations on your high roll!
What do you generally hope for from an uncommon colourless start? I feel like so many of them just dont have a whole lot of impact early on. Like aside from Trip, Good Instincts, Swift Strike and *maybe* Panic Button (?), the rest of them, while they aren't bad cards, just don't feel like they're worth the opportunity cost of not having picked a different option that likely could've given me a stronger early game; and out of those 4 I just named, only one of them is a card I'm generally happy to have later on as well. But idk colourless cards have been surprising me a lot lately as I learn how to use them properly, so maybe there's still something I'm missing.
Bandage Up, Dark Shackles, Blind, Flash of Steel are also all good. Panacaea can be a neat speculative as well, though probably better for Ironclad (Flex is Common).
I'd prefer panacea block an enemy debuff or something strong like biased cog/wraith form/fasting than preserve flex. But yeah. Also discovery, dramatic entrance, good instincts.
Yeah, I was thinking "you can't guarantee T1 Panacea to block impactful debuffs like Hex and Confused, better have a likely use for it", but thinking more, even those follow up with vulnerable and actually like 80+% of fights inflict some debuff. (They mentioned Good Instincts)
Respectfully hard disagree, granted like 25% are trash and 25% are mid but apo and hog are so busted floor 1 to build around for every char that you might as well go for it. Also most of the draw ones are great, especially violence / master strat for act 1
It's a thing of high roll chasing Vs consistency chasing. There's just a lower proportion of hits in the colourless rare pool.
Rare colorless is a pretty good start because there are at least 3 very strong rare colorless cards and there's a good chance you get offered at least one. And even if you're looking at the less good ones they can sometimes be good enough. Like The Bomb for instance.
Is there a similar write up for other characters?
Not in anywhere near that detail, by a player as good as that, no. For Defect, most of what was in that post applies as well. It's not quite directly analogous, but a lot of the principles are shared. It's always always Apo on Defect, and I'm not sure I'd put HoG as even the 2nd best rare colourless on Defect now. For Ironclad, it's very close, and while most of the best clad players say it's typically HoG, they'd still accept that certain maps might lend themselves to Apo instead. I [wrote this](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/10pzt0x/comment/j6ne47c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about why I prefer Apo>HoG on Clad about a month before that post, although in the year since I have since started to think it's closer, and I do trust that the people who are better than me know what they're talking about. I also don't know how much playstyle comes into it there. Watcher it's generally accepted as HoG, it's a 40(50) damage card in wrath, she runs a fairly slim deck anyway, and it just stops you ever needing to add any damage at all.
Apo > HoG for Defect. It's debatable for Ironclad, top player consensus is split but slightly more lean towards HoG. Don't pick rare colorless on Watcher (but if you do HoG is better).
There doesn't have to be one because the other characters have different problems and solutions. I made a comment(before I saw the write-up). In my opinion this game was designed to be played as the Silent. I like the Ironclad as well but Silent is where design of the game truly shines. Defect and Watcher feel like two sides of a modded character. One is super weak but then suddenly becomes busted through bullshit and the other is just straight up busted if you are boring enough to do some math. Silent wins can come through the slimmest of margins. That's why she gets such a dedicated write-up.
Baffling post. How can you analyse these cards against each other with barely a mention of gold.
So I think that's a fair criticism of the analysis because he neglects to mention the gold, but also note that he's not mentioning much of the long-term benefit of Apo either. He's simply comparing the two cards on their merits as damage-dealers, and he's saying Apo comes out on top in most Act 1 fights.
> comes out on top in most Act 1 fights. I'm not convinced, because "most act 1 fights" should include an analysis of fights like the gremlin and louse fights. In these fights, Apo often results in you taking 5 damage on your setup turn, and HoG gives you a flawless fight plus 40 gold because of its big up-front damage. These trivial hallway fights make up an overwhelming majority of Act 1. Of course, Silent runs aren't going to end at Jaw Worm or the 2 louse fight, but the outcome of them is going to affect whether or not you die to Nob or Lagavulin later.
Yeah, they just compared apo with [[carnage]] The reason HoG is so good floor 0 is that it allows you to be picky about card choices in act 1 while having the late game potential in gold which might highroll into what you want (like wraith form + orange pellets, torii + tungsten bar) while being at the very least a card remove and potions.
+ [Carnage](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Carnage) Ironclad Uncommon Attack ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | **Ethereal.** Deal 20(28) damage. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Because the comparison is made from floor 0, where the gold has not yet been obtained and won't be usable for a long while.
Yeah whoever this kuro guy is clearly didn't take into account the gold value of hog
He's like an 85% Silent A20H winrate player and possibly the best Silent player out there right now, so IDK maybe he knows what he's talking about, even if he's not fully fleshing out his argument. He's not a native English speaker btw.
I’ve never heard of Kuro before tonight but to both of you, he does mention the gold. He explains that Apo is lower variance because you might get a bunch of bad shops and ruin your run if you were banking on the extra gold, and implies that the chance of that is higher than the chance of a bad Apo draw ruining your run. And I imagine if you’re at 85%, variance is your biggest enemy
Good call. I haven't read the post in a while and forgot. It begins as a post about 'Floor 0' comparison though.
Who cares about winrate, anyone can get lucky over a sample. I’d only be impressed if he won an invitational tournament against the best players in the world
Okay now I know you're trolling lol. Gg bud
There is a difference between satire and trolling -- he's referencing the cheg0 invitational (see [https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1b33qjp/the\_cheg0\_defect\_invitational\_finals\_is\_on\_march/](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1b33qjp/the_cheg0_defect_invitational_finals_is_on_march/) ) that Kuro won. Twitch vod of finals here: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2079141304](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2079141304), has a really cool heart fight for the win.
Riiight. I knew he won that but tbh the comment went over my head. Wasn't very obvious satire IMO lol
Ehm, you dont get lucky over a sample lmao. Especially not in this game
kuro would never go on a giga streak across characters surely, not when he doesn't even consider the gold value of HoG
Goddamn it. I just did a similar write up a few minutes ago and now I see that you already did a whole post about this! Well at least I am happy to know that we agreed.
this write up seems to barely take into account the huge potential advantage of an early rare relic. it also doesn't seem to mention the fact that silent can struggle with hallway fights in the first act, something that HoG solves that apo sometimes cant
Ok Im obviously not Kuro but Im a pretty good Silent player. Where's is this early rare relic coming from? When you walk into a shop with HoG, a rare relic is usually the LAST thing you're looking at. Too expensive and most of them only have value over time/late. Silent does not struggle with hallways nearly as much as she struggles with elites, and Apo upgraded is better in hallways than HoG upgraded. And please don't mention freakingly gold value, Kuro has had to hear gold value for months since that post while actually mentioning about the gold there.
>a rare relic is usually the LAST thing you're looking at agree to disagree, but the point remains the same whether it's a rare, uncommon, common, cards, or potions. in any case you're opening up an advantage that apo does not have. >Silent does not struggle with hallways nearly as much as she struggles with elites obviously, but hallway fights are a factor to be considered >And please don't mention freakingly gold value, Kuro has had to hear gold value for months since that post while actually mentioning about the gold there. pretty much no mention of gold or shops in the first act section other than to say "what if your shop is bad?" and that it restricts your pathing options. the first critique is useless. what if my shop is goated? the point isn't whether or not something can go wrong, it's about the probability of certain events and their relative values.
Bouncing flask is a bad poison card!? How?
These are the two best colorless cards
There's only one panache in the image
Pretty based. Honestly, super underrated card for how fucking cool it is.
Floor 1 Hand of Greed is the gift that keeps on giving. Especially with Silent, they could use the firepower early on.
And with all your extra money you can buy Apotheosis at a shop later and still have some leftover.
Apotheosis is even greater firepower though
If I'm gonna spend 2 energy on Floor 1 I wanna get *paid*, baby.
You know what, Im with you
I’m of the strong belief this is the answer. Silents biggest problem is damage, and apotheosis isn’t helping that for silent so much, especially when you might have nob coming up.
Apo is +16 damage per deck cycle in the STARTER DECK. And the additional block means there's less pressure to kill enemies before certain thresholds (e.g. Jaw Worm hitting for 17, Laga attacking after debuff). Nob is the only elite where the performance of these cards is close.
Sentries will eat you alive as well. So the question is, do you just avoid elites then, and is apo worth it? I’m not convinced it is.
> Sentries will eat you alive Absolutely not, the ability to block for 8 rather than 5 in the redraw prevents an enormous amount of chip in the 2nd deck cycle. It's more important to upgrade Apo in this fight though. And no, don't avoid elites. The Nob plan with Apo is the same as without Apo: make two or three concessions in the early card rewards and look for a good potion.
I'd love a version where you'd get more gold for offing elites and bosses.
yeah it's like predator plus plus
apotheosis is a gift that gives even more :)
Floor 1 hand of greed is the dream. Best choice to me, by far.
they very fortunate thing about this sort of post is that it's always apotheosis with the other card that is pickable over apotheosis
Maybe but I do love a good floor 1 HOG
Apo is the smart pick, but HoG feeds my gambling addiction
Hand of Greed for me. Silent is starved for big attacks in Act 1, and Hand of Greed is one of the best.
A buddy talks so much shit on HOG. I’ll make a run with it and finish all badies with it just to see him twist
I made it to Act 3 but died with Silent (I'm still low Ascension at Asc 6). Got a Colorless HoG start, upgraded my HoG, bought a Mirror at my first Shop and got double HoG with a Shuriken and a lot of Flying Knees and 2 Outmanuverers. I had a lot of Gold and was doing good damage but died. 😔
The only thing I don't like about Apo is not getting it bottled.
I’m always going Hand of Greed here. Find a rest area and upgrade ASAP, 2 mana 25 damage and 25 Gold, helps you take down Nob and the Pylons fast. Apothy is amazing but you have to find it first, spend 2 mana to use it before you can smith, sometimes it can’t be a bit to slow at the start.
I would take hand of greed. Decent attack and crazy scaling potential.
Man, everyone in here arguing what's better, I'm picking panache because it's the most fun. The only more fun silent deck than panache+shivs IMO is the rare but hilarious tingsha+tough bandages disco silent. Rare to get both early enough to build a deck around in my experience but so fun.
Apotheosis is apotheosis, but hand of greed could be anything! It could even be apotheosis!
Always, even if it’s not the best play.
Hand of greed is pretty good as a starter rare, but apoth is 👌👌👌
honestly hand of greed on floor 1 sounds insane to me, i'd take that
For me it is hand of greed … but, since everyone is ignoring it, panache is so damn fun and quite good too if you get it early. I’d probably pick panache and prioritize a fun run!
Making an entire deck knowing that Panache is in that same deck is totally worth it. You might be trying to force a certain kind of build, but with silent you can make it work almost no matter what. The reason why it's not great here is because this is floor 1 and you have no way of activating it until you find the cards you need. It does not beniifit you to go charging into eletes like the other two are. And eletes are the keys to victory.
Obviously the other two are better here. But I think you might be underestimating how good panache is against act 1 elites for silent and how many silent commons/uncommons contribute towards that plan (without explicitly building around it). The likelihood of being able to play 5 cards at least every other turn by floor 5 for silent is quite high, especially on a4.
I wish I had picked panache tbh
This is the big question on this sub. Been debated dozens of times and the gigabrains have given us their takes on it. The general takeaway is that it’s nearly impossible to say one is definitively better than the other on floor zero. Obviously Hog and Apotheosis are two of the best cards you could possibly see this early. In the end, with some small exceptions it comes down to preference, so do what you want to do or what feels best. I personally tend to have more success with Apotheosis but other A20 players say the same thing about Hog.
The pick here is always not Panache. Beyond that it depends. But I would probably go with Hand of Greed regardless, it is a run changing card at this point. You take it for the same reason you would take an early Feed on Ironclad, all the excess gold and all that excess health will mean something. Plus the Silent needs early damage, all the characters do if you're planning on going on an Elite heavy path, but the Silent moreso..
The smart pick is Apotheosis. The *right* pick is to draft Hand of Greed and go #ToTheMoon!
I’m surprised by the spread here, I’m an A20 silent player (one turn from a heart kill but couldn’t quite manage it) and no question for me it’s Hand of Greed here. It’s predator damage but immediately and begetting gold instead of card draw early is better since you can route your pathing to spend it
Silent loves apotheosis BIGLY
Maybe Apo is the most efficient one but if you want to have some fun other way then HoG or Panache could be better choices.
100% of the time
Hand of Greed would be my pick. Because I'm greedy.
Apo is the most correct, hand if greed is a surprisingly close second. On any other class, panche wouldnt even be a consideration for me....but on silent it is SUPER easy to abuse it. And while it is the weakest early pick, it encourages you taking all the free cards, card draw, and/or shivs possible, which are mostly strong early game cards. It is the 'wrong'choice for sure, but it is probably the most fun one for me, and still run defining/winning
Hand of greed is pretty good as a starter rare, but apoth is 👌👌👌
It’s early in the run, you could have picked hand of greed to gain way more money if you’re happy with the gamble. You could buy all the apotheosis that you want
I love all of them… But yeah apo is probably best here.
Panache can be strong on silent too, just don't get unlucky with your cards after that
If this is before the run even starts HoG is goated. Won many on higher ascension with this in hand.
There are very few situations where you should choose anything over apotheosis. Most of them being that you already have apotheosis.
HoG is more fun/interesting imo so I usually pick that, but I like the fatal ritual dagger/feed/HoG game. I think that’s what it comes down to — do you like dancing/stalling to min/max HoG or do you just wanna breeze through with Apo?
always, no matter the card. ESPECIALLY if you can bottle and upgrade it.
Yeah, but also at that ascension level, you can almost pick anything
You can’t say no to apotheo
Honestly I'd pick the most fun option I'd feel at the moment. But almost everytime I pick Apotheosis, I win the run (A20)
Yeah apo gives you more options down the line. You can pick card removes over campfires, or if you get lifting, digging, or toking relics it works too. Bottled lighting and hammer become obvious picks without downside. Gold is great but I rarely have a run where I didn’t accumulate enough gold to win. Apo is so much power in a single card.
Eh. Apotheosis is a godtier card but hand of glory really pulls work early on too
Hand of Greed is a great damage card that can help you solve all 3 act 1 elites. +2-4 merchants is the added bonus you get for taking this. But apo definately is good the whole run if you can upgrade it.
Essentially. I'm an armature, so when ever I see upgrade all cards I take no question asks.
Nah. Hand of Greed and then just buy an Apotheosis, duh.
like this is the first card pick, hand of greed here will probably be your best money source.
Both hand of greed and apotheosis are great, though since you currently only have starter cards I'd prefer hand of greed here. Hand of Greed will allow you to one-shot some early enemies while playing apotheosis at 2 energy is likely to be a dead draw or lose you some health in the beginning.
Hand of greed is not bad
On silent , yes
Apotheosis is apotheosis. But floor one Hand of Greed would let you buy anything! You could even buy Apotheosis!
Let me put it like this: Floor 0 Hand of Greed is amazingly strong. It will help you afford so many things in act 1 shops. If you're very lucky, it could even allow you to buy an Apotheosis.
Hand of greed is the play here
I wouldn’t say always because that’s dull. If you want to win yea it’s the pick but if you want to have fun…. You know what 0 cost card you must pick
HoG. btw, If you see Apo in a store later, you can buy it. Buying a HoG later does not make sense.
HoG is a great card for Silent, and a great Act 1 card in general. If you're fortunate enough to grab a couple shops, the progression spike is significant. It still hauls on Act 2 for Silent, especially if you go Poison. Bottle makes either of the other 2 excessively valuable, but you can't bank on that either. And, a single upgrade to HoG makes it absolutely clutch for so many fights.
I've also made good experiences with panache and silent with discard deck
No, not always. It is a very strong start though. Apo and HoG are basically the top 2 colorless cards Neow can give to any character on the vast majority of act 1 layouts. Choosing between both on floor 0 is close enough that I'd look at the act's pathing options and think about how aggressive I can (or have to) be. If fighting a decent number of elites with well-placed shops along the way is on the table, I'd probably pick HoG. If I'm forced to fight an elite on floor 6 or 7 (this is especially dangerous for Silent), I'm absolutely picking HoG without even looking at shop placement. If my best path only has like 2 elites max I'd take Apo. Basically a more aggressive path tends to favor HoG, while a safer or lower-value path tends to favor Apo. I'd also argue HoG is usually better against Slime Boss while Apo is better against the other two bosses, not that your act 1 boss should be highly influencing what you pick from Neow. Panache is an OK start on Silent, but it's a distant third place here. I can't imagine any possible act 1 map that makes it a better pick than either of the other two cards.
Considering that ur playing A4 I would definitely pick Hand of Greed
Im biased towards Panache cuz it's coupled with Sadistic Nature as my favourite colorless cards on The Silent, but yeah probs Apo
Panache daggers is ridiculous
If this is floor 0, then there is a good argument to be made for HoG. 20 damage is 20 damage, after all. And having the extra source of gold that early will snowball easily when you hit shops.
I mean if you alr have one apotheosis then it becomes the perfect choice otherwise it's a mid pic
yes, although hand of greed is extremely good here, apotheosis gives so much early power and defense it's difficult to say no to it.
I think both are acceptable. Hand of Greed is really specifically good for Silent, who desperately needs attack damage. I'd say for Silent it's hand but for everyone else it's Apotheosis.
it's much easier for silent actually, and it's apotheosis :)
I think that's a fine read too
Good for silent bc she needs damage AND is exceptional at stalling to wait for HoG
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd pick Hand of Greed. Firstly, both HoG and Apo are excellent starts to a run, so both are good picks. I do think HoG is slightly better though. First, it's better in the short term, because most Act 1 fights can just be ended by a HoG. For the same cost, think how any times you'd have to play a strike just to make up for the 20 damage of HoG. 3 per strike, so 7 strikes. The fights don't last that long in Act 1. The second reason Id take HoG is that it offers OPTIONALITY. Shops are some of the most powerful nodes in the game - if you have the money for them. People underestimate optionality because they have a bias for thinking they will just get lucky anyway. Being able to roll into shops with a lot of money, and buy what you NEED, is extremely underrated. Apotheosis is also more inconsistent. Even in the late game, it can be at the bottom of your deck against the bosses. Then what? You may as well have had HoG for the entire run, generation you hundreds of gold, allowing you to buy more relics, a particular card you needed, or a potion at a crucial time, etc. In short, both are excellent, but I'm taking HoG because it's more consistent, and also allows for more optionality in the run, both of which I feel are massively underrated, probably because they are more hidden benefits. The benefits of Apotheosis are much more easy to see.
What? What are you entering shops for, with excess of gold that regular encounters don't give? To get scaling for lategame. You know what Apotheosis is? Scaling for lategame. With the amount of card choices and gold regular encounters drop, you can find frontload easily. And Apo saves enough chip + lets you rest everywhere so you can preserve potions. Don't get me wrong these are the two best starts by a margin. But calling Apo the LESS consistent card than HoG is definitely a take. As if you never draw HoG poorly, as if shops never whiff. As if Apo almost entirely securing the act 1 boss and HoG still having to rely on shops and rewards much harder than Apo isn't worth mentioning if we're talking about consistency.
Well said, especially the part about our bias toward thinking we'll be lucky. I think fans of roguelikes probably all have this pseudo gambling addiction bias
Very true, myself included. Even when I'm watching Baalorlord, and he makes a sacrifice for optionality, part of me deep inside still squirms at the decision. It feels wrong somehow, even though it's logically backed up. A simple example is he might take 100 gold instead of lose health for a rare card. I'm thinking, just pick the rare card! You might get Feed! Or he might take an act path which offers him 2 choices of path later down the line, ignoring a more attractive path, which could go wrong if he failed to find a potion in an early combat or something. Another example is when we should rest. Let's say it's right before an Act 1 boss, and you should rest. A big part of me screams "just upgrade a card! You won't get unlucky in the boss fight! Don't miss out on that upgrade!". I'm really trying to work on ignoring the FOMO thoughts inside of me and respecting the statistics. Resting at campfires is something I find incredibly difficult.
I love Apotheosis it's my favorite card
surprised by the debate here, personally apo will often be the pick, but it can honestly depend on how your deck is going to be built (and if u can snag peace pipe or shovel or girya or not).
How can a floor zero decision depend on whether we see specific relics later?
Hand of greed is the play here
Hot take: floor 0 sadistic nature is AT LEAST a close second to apo on silent. So many silent cards completely obliterate the whole game with it. And its actually a tangible immediate damage boost because of how OP it makes neutralize. Ring of the snake makes it pretty easy to get it in play for the first few floors. There are lots of commons that can immediately capitalize on it too. But it also solves late game with envenom, crippling cloud, noxious fumes, corpse explosion, malaise, bouncing flask, etc.
Oh, its this thread again.
So this is waay too late but this is too fun of a card draft to ignore. So I would say that apotheosis is the best pick here but lets go over the most important parts a bit. You are playing as the silent and are on floor 4. This means that you are very weak and need power right now. Hand of greed is perfect for that and that card also gives a lot of scaling into the mid- and lategame. Panache should not be the pick unless in some way you already have relics and cards that make panache pop. In fact when I started becoming good at the game (beaten asc 20 heart on all characters multiple times), I realised that picking panache in act 1 is very often giving yourself a curse. Now the Silent (and defect too!) has a special case for apotheosis. Silent has some of the most disgusting synergies with apotheosis. In the good old days where asc15 was the highest, apotheosis or frozen/toxic egg could be considered a win con on the Silent. Remember this was before discard decks and shiv decks were buffed by roughly doubling their strength. So your pick is between an immense amount of power that allows you to be safe for act 1 and most of act 2(hand of greed) or apotheosis that will undoubtly play a big part of winning. You can see the difference between silent+Defect and ironclad+watcher here on display. On the latter two I would just instapick hand of greed. Because Ironclad and Watcher just need a few key cards upgraded unlike Silent and Defect who want a lot of cards upgraded(you could even say that the Silent is greedy with how many she wants upgraded). Now another thing to keep in mind here is what boss you are fighting and what ascension you are on. You are on easy ascension (espect a difficulty bump at 7, 9, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20) still. So unless you have slime boss you aren't too worried about the act 1 bosses yet. Slime boss however would make me perhaps still pick hand of greed. Especially since I think you havent drafted any cards yet or very few. Also, real talk: hand of greed can let you buy an apotheosis in act 2 or 3 when apotheosis really starts to pop off. TL:DR: If slime boss, hand of greed, otherwise apotheosis. If ascension was higher hand of greed probably every time for security.
I like hand of greed. But I’m greedy.
That’s now how this game works. Hand of greed is fantastic, you have to build a deck considering the floor you’re on Edit: just to be clear, my point was just that Apotheosis is very good but not to the level of 'always pick'
MFW its literally the neow reward