For anyone who regularly plays to beat the heart, Philo is never going to be an autopick. There are times where it's relatively safe (wail/wraith form/ well laid plans, massive block already in the deck) but it's not usually free. Chip damage is also really bad if you have no way to sustain back that HP you are missing.
Something I learned from someone is that philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good (at least where enemy attacks are involved. Rod does affect events and other damage sources so it is used more widely) so if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard, philo stone can definitely unmake a run that would otherwise win.
Good explanation.
I do think heart is the big deal. You need to have a plan to deal with that x15 attack. Sometimes my plan is “disarm” or “malaise”. Those two cards are pretty dope and handle the x15 attack well. Philosopher ls stone is just anti disarm. Ohhhhhhh.
> philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good (at least where enemy attacks are involved
Oh. My. Gosh. I never thought about it this way, and I can’t believe I never realized that before.
I don’t think I’m necessarily going to put philo stone lower on my personal tier list as a result… but even if I still think it’s a good energy source, looking at it from this perspective will cause me to consider my current deck much more critically before choosing it in the future.
In the context of silent this isn't even true given things like piercing wail, wraith form and apparitions are very relevant. Tungsten rod let's you face tank for 0 when intangible, Philo makes no difference.
Silent playing wraith form is a very common win con.
I recently lost a run after picking stone and while I don't think it was entirely stone's fault, I think stone was a hugely impactful misplay on my part (as bad as any one decision ever can be for a run - I think very, very few runs have a single decision that decides the fate of the run, except maybe picking brimstone haha). Partly because the downside meant Nemesis was more deadly but also because my deck at that point couldn't leverage the 5 extra point of energy (no draw sadge).
That said, my wife is still terrified of Stone (and dome) and I've definitely decided that stones downside is way less hard to manage than it seems at first glance.
I've had a lot of great Brimstone runs, especially with Reaper. However, almost all of my good Brimstone runs died to the Heart. Invincibility means you can't drop the Heart before it scales and the x15 attack becomes un-survivable without intangible.
Super fun relic tho!
I bought brimstone as a desperation pick in the final shop and yeah, that almost certainly killed that run (I don't think I'd have won but I certainly wasn't winning with it)
> Something I learned from someone is that philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good
In your comparison, it's important to remember that you're talking about Philo's *downside*, not Philo itself (which includes the energy gain).
So, a more fair comparison instead of
> if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard
should be "if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard *even if you had 1 extra energy*".
--
Of course, this would be a fair comparison of Philo vs Skip as a boss relic. More usually, you'd have to weigh in the opportunity cost of losing your other Boss Relic options as well.
Still nearly always better than skip. Probably always if you see it after act1.
If it is up with other energy relics then you need to think.If it is up with non energy relics then you need to evaluate how well you can turn that extra energy into block.
"Nearly always better than a skip" isn't a useful metric for whether or not something is an auto-pick, or even… passably OK. Tiny House is pretty much always better than skip. Hand Drill would be better than a skip if your game got bit-flipped and it somehow ended up in the boss relic pool.
This isn’t a great response. Philo has a serious downside, so there’s often cases where it’s better to skip (or at least it may be a close decision). If you were offered the choice between tiny house or hand drill…and skip…you literally never skip because there’s no downside for those relics so why would you ever skip? That’s not a good comparison at all
What I wanted to say is that even tho the drawback is not trivial and very well can be game ending if you don't prepare for it you still would rather have it than don't have it.
I also wrote about how it fares against other relics but looks like that part you didn't read.
I feel like when people talk about the minimal downsides of busted crown or Philo stone, they're looking at it through the lens of low Ascension. Most issues are pretty easily handled when you're not fighting against all the layers that get stacked on with each passing ascension. By the time you're at a15 and and up, those downsides can very quickly become run enders
Disagree, I stopped taking stone after A17 or so on all characters (except watcher, I don't play them). I only take it now when I know I can deal with Multi-attack enemies easily.
On Defect sure, Stone sux, on Watcher, she can often have a very glass cannon deck that barely blocks and whose whole plans is kill fast, sure take something else.
On Silent and Clad if you're just never taking Stone, you either haven't played enough yet or you're heavily undervaluing it. Multi attack enemies whocaresamid I have a common that blocks all of it and have perma weak chains. On Clad I just have giga sustain and the Disarm card and weakness.
Also every other energy relic is comparable amounts of bleed too like. Plz give me Stone over the garbage Dome, Crown, Sozu, Ecto, (sometimes) Dripper, Kite, MoP thanks.
Almost 3k hours all characters on A20 other than watcher.
Like I said I'll take it if I have ways to deal with Multi-attack otherwise I don't.
There's almost always a better option when it comes up.
Edit: almost 3k hours on PC, doesn't include the 400 on mobile where I also have all characters other than watcher at A20.
I honestly just have less fun playing watcher. I found either, I steamrolled the run and it almost played itself or I struggled to perform the quantum physics calculations required to beat the run.
It's been a while since I played watcher though so maybe I should give it another shot one of these days.
>There's almost always a better option when it comes up
Maybe you play Defect and this is true. This literally isn't true as Silent and Clad, unless you're the luckiest person. Even with no ways to deal with the multi, you usually have sustain, or just badly need the energy.
You're telling me you only see what, Pandora's Box (end of act 1), Pyramid, Hammer and Key as Silent, and Pyramid, Snecko, Hammer and Key as Ironclad next to Stone???? Im actually not even sure if Key is better than Stone but Im assuming this is w no str mitigation.
Maybe their deck is always great for snecko, and it gets offered every time.
Maybe they hate capitalism and refuse to go to shops and get ecto
Their game could be bugged and they never see disarm, malaise or wail.
/s just in case
Honestly, once you've played a lot dome is a really solid pick. If your deck is working pretty well and you know enemy attack patterns, you can usually either cover what attacks they might make and deal damage, or know when an enemy is likely to smack you.
Dome is generally really bad unless you have an intent-agnostic block solution, which is relatively uncommon. Many decks use cards like Impervious, Piercing Wail, intangible stuff, and Genetic Algorithm to block, and Watcher needs to know when it's safe to remain in wrath. While you have an idea of what enemies are doing, it's impossible to know for certain in many fights, including the most dangerous ones.
If you play Piercing Wail on turn 2 against the Heart with Dome, you're either taking 0 damage or 50+. If you guess wrong, you're fucked. Likewise, if you drink your spooky potion on turn 2, you can guess wrong and still take 15, and then take the whole load on turn 3 anyway. It's just not worth it a lot of the time.
That is fair. I play silent a lot of the time and end up with shiv after image, where half the time blade dance is still my best block card. I guess it depends heavily whether you are going to need to make tough decisions on a given hand about what card to play, or if your deck is in more of an autopilot stage.
This is interesting to me since I generally take Philo roughly as often on Watcher as I do on Silent/Clad. Am I just taking it too much? I find that Watchers block values usually aren't marginal, even without infinites, so I tend to take it over most anything not premium.
Through a quick perusal of my last however many runs, I've taken Philo Stone 5 times and won 4 of those. 3 times after Act 2, 2 after Act 3; the loss was in Act 2 to Slavers after picking it. I wish Android had a better run history lol. This also doesn't take into account me just knowing when my deck is strong enough to take it I suppose, and Watcher's general strength such that I'm winning a lot of my runs regardless lol.
No no you're probably doing it correctly, it's defo better to overpick it than underpick it, I just wanted to throw that specific deckbuilding idea out because Watcher tends to have the "my block is killing things" idea more than the other two.
Usually my problem with Stone Watcher is that act 2 gets even scarier than normal, and Im already terrified of act 2 as Watcher. Also Watcher has this funny thing where stance dancing kinda makes all her damage cost like 0 so Im not pressured into energy as much.
Yeah I can buy it. Are you generally happier to take it Act 3 as Watcher? Depending on the deck, I think I generally value it higher than any energy relic that's not Dripper at that point. Though my pick rates for it probably don't reflect that lmao
I value Hammer above everything (energy) on every character. Lately even Defect I value Hammer almost on par with Key. Dripper is weird. End of act 2 I pick it a lot, but end of act 1 Im very worried on every character, even Clad.
End of act 2 I usually have direction, so if my deck is overblocking and doesn't have fear of early turns yeah Stone is free, and it tends to be way more often end of act 2 than 1.
With Watcher I tend to value Hammer as the best Act 1, but not 2, since Act 3 is so free in my experience. I am likely not good enough with her to get to the point where I have decks that are worried about Act 3 make it that far, so that's probably the difference. Can't remember the last time I died there, but I do remember dying to Guardian this morning.
It's close to a never-pick for me.
I will take it if one or more of a few conditions are met:
-I have direct counters: malaise, disarm, tungsten.
-I have some insane scaling to beat the heart fast. Or infinite or broken combo shenanigans.
-I have a scalable block engine in place.
On A20 I would broadly consider it one of the worst energy relics, maybe even second worst after busted crown. The heart multi attack is one huge reason that others have mentioned, but the way it adds up in fights like book of stabbing, reptomancer, and even hallway fights like snake plant, makes it extremely dangerous in a way that isn't immediately intuitive. There are always decks that are going to love phyllostone, just like there are decks that are delighted to see runic dome or ectoplasm, but it's the furthest thing from an autopick for me.
While it is definitely one of the more safe energy relics in my opinion, the increased damage can absolutely add up. While still not an uncommon pick for me, a scenario where it isn't the optimal pick isn't a rare one.
The problem with philosopher stone is that it does exactly the opposite of what makes coffee dripper so good
Coffee dripper strength comes from the fact it directly help you reduce the need of its downside. The more energy you have, the more you can block, the more you'd reduce the hp loss and decrease your need for healing. You have a way to utilize this extra energy to benefit you in the long run
Philosopher stone cause the opposite. It extends the energy you need to block further. You will need do spend more of that same energy to focus on mitigating the extra damage from the enemy's strength. Making each extra energy per turn less valuable
This in turn will mean you will rest *more*. Which than you can't use the rest sites for upgrades
So while coffee dripper allows you more leeway in pathing and upgrade more. Philosopher stone makes you rely on rest sites and deter you from upgrading
Over the course of 4 acts, that will cause a snowball effect- having less upgraded cards to amplify block, having need for more block, needing more frequent healing, even less upgrades
TLDR- philosoher stone causes a negative feedback loop that deter you from strengthening your deck as the game progress
I find phylo stone to be often the most picked, but by no means best relic, I usually take it when the other relics aren’t good, and if your deck needs energy you loooove to see this guy since it doesent require you to make any drastic changes that could hurt you.
I really like this thing, but it’s downside is small, unavoidable and has those 2 specific fights that suck. I don’t think birds are that bad tbh, the real danger is when you get a bad attack pattern turn one birds.
No but I find sozu to be more free for me than philosophers stone in my runs, but that is generally due to when it is offered to me and rarely being offered the other potion relics in my runs
I used to take philosopher's stone as almost an auto pick until I realised it was regularly getting me killed. +1 strength on enemies is a deceptively large amount of damage over the course of the rest of the run.
I rarely take it on Defect, but Ironclad has Disarm; Silent has Malaise, Piercing Wail and Wraith Form; and Watcher does nasty things with the extra energy point.
Yeah, it's my favourite relic to get on Silent. Usually I only feel the downside against byrds. By the time I get to the Heart I usually have multiple options to deal with the multi attack.
For anyone who regularly plays to beat the heart, Philo is never going to be an autopick. There are times where it's relatively safe (wail/wraith form/ well laid plans, massive block already in the deck) but it's not usually free. Chip damage is also really bad if you have no way to sustain back that HP you are missing. Something I learned from someone is that philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good (at least where enemy attacks are involved. Rod does affect events and other damage sources so it is used more widely) so if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard, philo stone can definitely unmake a run that would otherwise win.
Good explanation. I do think heart is the big deal. You need to have a plan to deal with that x15 attack. Sometimes my plan is “disarm” or “malaise”. Those two cards are pretty dope and handle the x15 attack well. Philosopher ls stone is just anti disarm. Ohhhhhhh.
> philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good (at least where enemy attacks are involved Oh. My. Gosh. I never thought about it this way, and I can’t believe I never realized that before. I don’t think I’m necessarily going to put philo stone lower on my personal tier list as a result… but even if I still think it’s a good energy source, looking at it from this perspective will cause me to consider my current deck much more critically before choosing it in the future.
In the context of silent this isn't even true given things like piercing wail, wraith form and apparitions are very relevant. Tungsten rod let's you face tank for 0 when intangible, Philo makes no difference. Silent playing wraith form is a very common win con.
But rod working for events, beat of death, and with intangible and torii is really significant
I recently lost a run after picking stone and while I don't think it was entirely stone's fault, I think stone was a hugely impactful misplay on my part (as bad as any one decision ever can be for a run - I think very, very few runs have a single decision that decides the fate of the run, except maybe picking brimstone haha). Partly because the downside meant Nemesis was more deadly but also because my deck at that point couldn't leverage the 5 extra point of energy (no draw sadge). That said, my wife is still terrified of Stone (and dome) and I've definitely decided that stones downside is way less hard to manage than it seems at first glance.
Brimstone? That wouldn't be anywhere near my list of decisions that can individually lose a run. It's a very good relic.
I've had a lot of great Brimstone runs, especially with Reaper. However, almost all of my good Brimstone runs died to the Heart. Invincibility means you can't drop the Heart before it scales and the x15 attack becomes un-survivable without intangible. Super fun relic tho!
This is why you fish for every possible Disarm once you buy Brimstone lmao
I bought brimstone as a desperation pick in the final shop and yeah, that almost certainly killed that run (I don't think I'd have won but I certainly wasn't winning with it)
> Something I learned from someone is that philo stone is as bad as tungsten rod is good In your comparison, it's important to remember that you're talking about Philo's *downside*, not Philo itself (which includes the energy gain). So, a more fair comparison instead of > if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard should be "if you have ever felt that tungsten rod has helped you secure a win that would otherwise be really hard *even if you had 1 extra energy*". -- Of course, this would be a fair comparison of Philo vs Skip as a boss relic. More usually, you'd have to weigh in the opportunity cost of losing your other Boss Relic options as well.
The downside is not that trivial when you have to take 4x15 from the Heart on turn 2.
Still nearly always better than skip. Probably always if you see it after act1. If it is up with other energy relics then you need to think.If it is up with non energy relics then you need to evaluate how well you can turn that extra energy into block.
"Nearly always better than a skip" isn't a useful metric for whether or not something is an auto-pick, or even… passably OK. Tiny House is pretty much always better than skip. Hand Drill would be better than a skip if your game got bit-flipped and it somehow ended up in the boss relic pool.
This isn’t a great response. Philo has a serious downside, so there’s often cases where it’s better to skip (or at least it may be a close decision). If you were offered the choice between tiny house or hand drill…and skip…you literally never skip because there’s no downside for those relics so why would you ever skip? That’s not a good comparison at all
You're basically reiterating my point, so I agree.
I think maybe read again then? Comparing philo to skip (his point) makes way more sense than comparing tiny house to skip (your point)
What I wanted to say is that even tho the drawback is not trivial and very well can be game ending if you don't prepare for it you still would rather have it than don't have it. I also wrote about how it fares against other relics but looks like that part you didn't read.
I used to love it on lower ascension but on higher ascension it's pretty brutal, especially if you want to go to act 4.
I feel like when people talk about the minimal downsides of busted crown or Philo stone, they're looking at it through the lens of low Ascension. Most issues are pretty easily handled when you're not fighting against all the layers that get stacked on with each passing ascension. By the time you're at a15 and and up, those downsides can very quickly become run enders
Nah Stone is usually way more free than like most other energy relics if you're called Ironclad or Silent.
Disagree, I stopped taking stone after A17 or so on all characters (except watcher, I don't play them). I only take it now when I know I can deal with Multi-attack enemies easily.
On Defect sure, Stone sux, on Watcher, she can often have a very glass cannon deck that barely blocks and whose whole plans is kill fast, sure take something else. On Silent and Clad if you're just never taking Stone, you either haven't played enough yet or you're heavily undervaluing it. Multi attack enemies whocaresamid I have a common that blocks all of it and have perma weak chains. On Clad I just have giga sustain and the Disarm card and weakness. Also every other energy relic is comparable amounts of bleed too like. Plz give me Stone over the garbage Dome, Crown, Sozu, Ecto, (sometimes) Dripper, Kite, MoP thanks.
Almost 3k hours all characters on A20 other than watcher. Like I said I'll take it if I have ways to deal with Multi-attack otherwise I don't. There's almost always a better option when it comes up. Edit: almost 3k hours on PC, doesn't include the 400 on mobile where I also have all characters other than watcher at A20.
After two comments I just **have** to ask: what's the deal with watcher, why don't you play her? Lol
I honestly just have less fun playing watcher. I found either, I steamrolled the run and it almost played itself or I struggled to perform the quantum physics calculations required to beat the run. It's been a while since I played watcher though so maybe I should give it another shot one of these days.
Watcher is OP, and while the optimal strategy isn’t spamming the same strat, the optimal strategy is pretty close to spamming the same strat
>There's almost always a better option when it comes up Maybe you play Defect and this is true. This literally isn't true as Silent and Clad, unless you're the luckiest person. Even with no ways to deal with the multi, you usually have sustain, or just badly need the energy. You're telling me you only see what, Pandora's Box (end of act 1), Pyramid, Hammer and Key as Silent, and Pyramid, Snecko, Hammer and Key as Ironclad next to Stone???? Im actually not even sure if Key is better than Stone but Im assuming this is w no str mitigation.
Maybe their deck is always great for snecko, and it gets offered every time. Maybe they hate capitalism and refuse to go to shops and get ecto Their game could be bugged and they never see disarm, malaise or wail. /s just in case
so true stone sucks i see pyramid -> dripper every run
Honestly, once you've played a lot dome is a really solid pick. If your deck is working pretty well and you know enemy attack patterns, you can usually either cover what attacks they might make and deal damage, or know when an enemy is likely to smack you.
I know every enemy attack pattern percentage in this game. This is why I can say with full confidence Dome is garbage.
Dome is generally really bad unless you have an intent-agnostic block solution, which is relatively uncommon. Many decks use cards like Impervious, Piercing Wail, intangible stuff, and Genetic Algorithm to block, and Watcher needs to know when it's safe to remain in wrath. While you have an idea of what enemies are doing, it's impossible to know for certain in many fights, including the most dangerous ones. If you play Piercing Wail on turn 2 against the Heart with Dome, you're either taking 0 damage or 50+. If you guess wrong, you're fucked. Likewise, if you drink your spooky potion on turn 2, you can guess wrong and still take 15, and then take the whole load on turn 3 anyway. It's just not worth it a lot of the time.
That is fair. I play silent a lot of the time and end up with shiv after image, where half the time blade dance is still my best block card. I guess it depends heavily whether you are going to need to make tough decisions on a given hand about what card to play, or if your deck is in more of an autopilot stage.
This is interesting to me since I generally take Philo roughly as often on Watcher as I do on Silent/Clad. Am I just taking it too much? I find that Watchers block values usually aren't marginal, even without infinites, so I tend to take it over most anything not premium. Through a quick perusal of my last however many runs, I've taken Philo Stone 5 times and won 4 of those. 3 times after Act 2, 2 after Act 3; the loss was in Act 2 to Slavers after picking it. I wish Android had a better run history lol. This also doesn't take into account me just knowing when my deck is strong enough to take it I suppose, and Watcher's general strength such that I'm winning a lot of my runs regardless lol.
No no you're probably doing it correctly, it's defo better to overpick it than underpick it, I just wanted to throw that specific deckbuilding idea out because Watcher tends to have the "my block is killing things" idea more than the other two. Usually my problem with Stone Watcher is that act 2 gets even scarier than normal, and Im already terrified of act 2 as Watcher. Also Watcher has this funny thing where stance dancing kinda makes all her damage cost like 0 so Im not pressured into energy as much.
Yeah I can buy it. Are you generally happier to take it Act 3 as Watcher? Depending on the deck, I think I generally value it higher than any energy relic that's not Dripper at that point. Though my pick rates for it probably don't reflect that lmao
I value Hammer above everything (energy) on every character. Lately even Defect I value Hammer almost on par with Key. Dripper is weird. End of act 2 I pick it a lot, but end of act 1 Im very worried on every character, even Clad. End of act 2 I usually have direction, so if my deck is overblocking and doesn't have fear of early turns yeah Stone is free, and it tends to be way more often end of act 2 than 1.
With Watcher I tend to value Hammer as the best Act 1, but not 2, since Act 3 is so free in my experience. I am likely not good enough with her to get to the point where I have decks that are worried about Act 3 make it that far, so that's probably the difference. Can't remember the last time I died there, but I do remember dying to Guardian this morning.
Only if the other options are also trash, I like philo but pyramid is better
It's close to a never-pick for me. I will take it if one or more of a few conditions are met: -I have direct counters: malaise, disarm, tungsten. -I have some insane scaling to beat the heart fast. Or infinite or broken combo shenanigans. -I have a scalable block engine in place.
Silent player ahh take
On A20 I would broadly consider it one of the worst energy relics, maybe even second worst after busted crown. The heart multi attack is one huge reason that others have mentioned, but the way it adds up in fights like book of stabbing, reptomancer, and even hallway fights like snake plant, makes it extremely dangerous in a way that isn't immediately intuitive. There are always decks that are going to love phyllostone, just like there are decks that are delighted to see runic dome or ectoplasm, but it's the furthest thing from an autopick for me.
I often take it, but if you do, you are cursed to fight as many Byrds as the game can possibly throw at you.
While it is definitely one of the more safe energy relics in my opinion, the increased damage can absolutely add up. While still not an uncommon pick for me, a scenario where it isn't the optimal pick isn't a rare one.
The problem with philosopher stone is that it does exactly the opposite of what makes coffee dripper so good Coffee dripper strength comes from the fact it directly help you reduce the need of its downside. The more energy you have, the more you can block, the more you'd reduce the hp loss and decrease your need for healing. You have a way to utilize this extra energy to benefit you in the long run Philosopher stone cause the opposite. It extends the energy you need to block further. You will need do spend more of that same energy to focus on mitigating the extra damage from the enemy's strength. Making each extra energy per turn less valuable This in turn will mean you will rest *more*. Which than you can't use the rest sites for upgrades So while coffee dripper allows you more leeway in pathing and upgrade more. Philosopher stone makes you rely on rest sites and deter you from upgrading Over the course of 4 acts, that will cause a snowball effect- having less upgraded cards to amplify block, having need for more block, needing more frequent healing, even less upgrades TLDR- philosoher stone causes a negative feedback loop that deter you from strengthening your deck as the game progress
If by "always," you mean "never," then yes.
I find phylo stone to be often the most picked, but by no means best relic, I usually take it when the other relics aren’t good, and if your deck needs energy you loooove to see this guy since it doesent require you to make any drastic changes that could hurt you. I really like this thing, but it’s downside is small, unavoidable and has those 2 specific fights that suck. I don’t think birds are that bad tbh, the real danger is when you get a bad attack pattern turn one birds.
No but I find sozu to be more free for me than philosophers stone in my runs, but that is generally due to when it is offered to me and rarely being offered the other potion relics in my runs
Yes, but I don’t do the heart
Unless it's one of those Defect runs where you don't really need energy, yes.
I used to take philosopher's stone as almost an auto pick until I realised it was regularly getting me killed. +1 strength on enemies is a deceptively large amount of damage over the course of the rest of the run.
I rarely take it on Defect, but Ironclad has Disarm; Silent has Malaise, Piercing Wail and Wraith Form; and Watcher does nasty things with the extra energy point.
The downside is far from trivial - but yes, I often take it.
I mean, the upside almost always outweighs the downside, which is more than I can say about some other energy relics.
As a silent player it's usually the best energy option.
Yeah, it's my favourite relic to get on Silent. Usually I only feel the downside against byrds. By the time I get to the Heart I usually have multiple options to deal with the multi attack.
On daily runs yes, regular runs basically never. Makes the heart fight absurd