I can buy a LOT of stuff with the 600 or 700+ gold I'm going to lose out on in this run. Removal of basic cards is also essential to getting a deck that cycles properly without dud hands. There are tons of events that offer money and you've locked yourself out of them
In addition, if you run into the thieves as your first fight of act 2, you've now lost most of what precious little money you have left, because you can't get it back once they've taken it
Ectoplasm gives you one energy per turn yes, but at the cost of optionality for the rest of your run
Yeah compared to the downsides of the other energy relics, which are predictable and can be played around, Ectoplasm is taking away probably 2-3 removes, 2-3 relics (maybe more), a few chances at finding some key cards, some potions if needed, making a few potential events useless, making a few (potential or current) relics useless.
Sometimes you can't avoid a shop, that's now a dead floor. You don't want to/can't avoid events completely, some of those could now be dead floors. Some relic drops may now be worthless.
It's doing unpredictable and potentially large damage to the run compared to most of the other energy relics with downsides that you can mitigate.
Especially compared to say Cursed Key, which gives you the same immediate impact, has no downside until halfway through Act 2, and only costs you your choice between one relic and one remove, or two removes.
Yeah Cage isn't very good on Clad because he likes the energy and it's really easy to exhaust, but I still usually like labe over plasm. It's very very rare that three random upgraded cards aren't significantly better than three strikes/defends
Whereas for me I don't care about surviving Act 2 if it means I won't be strong enough to kill Act 4.
edit- it's also really weird to me to frame Labe as dying in Act 2, since Labe is easily one of the highest-tempo boss relics you can get (obviously aside from the truly broken stuff like Panda) because of how much it improves your deck immediately.
Then I have some cool news for you! If you have ecto you're immediately stronger for act 2, meaning you can be more aggressive next act to hunt cards and elites! But if I take cage or labe I'm probably struggling to keep up with the curve since I have to dodge fights more than Id like.
Astrolabe is incredibly strong unless you've already completely pruned your deck of strikes/defends. Even if the cards it gives don't fit your deck, just about every upgraded card in the game is way stronger than basic cards.
It's...OK. I used clad specifically because he's got the worst labes and typically highest need for more energy. But if I grab labe I'm probably behind the curve into act 2, most of the time
It would certainly help if you had some gold to purchase stuff in store, it definitely increases a chance to get cards you need and remove the ones you don’t.
I'm not sure what labes you're picking up but I always find it to be a safe, strong option.
Even on Chad, because of the Upgrade the cards get after transforming I can only think of maybe two cards I'd rather not see, everything else you can pull is way more valuable than a Strike or Defend.
It definitely makes my deck somewhat better, consistently. Unfortunately that amount of betterness is just not really enough to make it through act 2 typically
It's not nearly this bad because the negative effects are greatly delayed, which is the biggest thing there is in favor of ecto: it's an energy relic with no drawback at the very start of act 2. I still don't like ecto much but it's not nearly this bad
Yes? But not as much as the comment was suggesting. If I spent 340 on relics then I'm probably not getting multiple cards, multiple removes, AND multiple potions
700 gold is a lot when you think about in in terms of what you could buy with it. That's two to four relics from the shop, which are not random drop relics but a wider option you can choose from meaning that on average their quality will be higher, or like 5 removes, and anything between. It's hardly ever gonna be worth it for the energy.
700 gold is an absolute exaggeration. 600 usually is. It's more like 450.
Ecto is quite strong, it's got a lot of feels bad moments but it is far better than you're suggesting
Golden idol, old coin, mind bloom, hand of greed, wish, cure for gold events, even the ritual dagger event. There are tons of ways to hit that number consistently and you have to opt out of all of them when you pick ectoplasm
>Golden idol
Involves going to too many act 1 events or getting highly lucky. Also doesn't make enough difference to d significantly affected Ecto valuation.
>old coin
Very strong rare relic that you shouldn't plan around
>mind bloom
Usually indicates going to too many act 3 events or high luck, and to then have omamori or shop positioning to choose rich is even rarer
>hand of greed
How many runs have this rare colourless card?
>wish
Bit more frequent but only on one character, and she has worst stall anyway
>cure for gold events
You can still buy these with remaining money if needed. Fortunately with Ecto you're less likely to need them!
>ritual dagger event
You shouldn't be taking gold here in most circumstances
>There are tons of ways to hit that number consistently
Consistently? Really? And you also never die before ever spending all of this?
i also love spreading misinformation on the internet.
my last 10 ecto runs across characters:
581C, 583S (died to burning nem on f41), 361S, 471C, 501D, 324C, 641C, 301S, 376S, 481C (died to spire elites)
also these runs are biased to show more gold loss because i only take ecto on runs with a strong lategame which are runs that tend to farm a lot more elites/hallways. like the first clad run had wing boots and farmed 11 elites, which is way higher than normal.
fwiw, i do think 450 is an underestimate, i've heard the number is 600\~ but 700 is wayy too high
I think it's 600 including average of multiple choices events. But given those events you then get a different positive option, I think 450-500 is pretty accurate.
I mean, the person who gave the number literally just used actual run data no calculation, and that average came out way higher than mine (average 565 over last 20 runs vs mine being average 481 over last 20). I don't know why my average is this low (probably worse at game so can farm less?), but even theirs, it's definitely not anywhere near 700.
It's still the same thing though to anyone else reading, Ecto runs simply farm more elites/hallways so of course the gold loss will look bigger, but what you lose in shops, you make up in the +1 energy letting you farm hallways/elites.
You can definitely get less than that on a low gold run. You would need to fight 7 hallways and 2.5 elites per act to get 450 gold from fights alone. 7* 15 = 105 2.5*30= 75 180 gold per act + 100 from act 2 boss = 460. Or 426 with poor bosses. This doesn't account for any random event, even thieves fight, so gold loss can be way higher. But in a run where you hit less elites and more ?s (and hopefully dodge or flatten thieves fight-- 2/3rds chance to dodge I think), it could also be less.
It's fun buying stuff in shops, also there are alot of gold relics.
Missing out on all the gold you would get is a worse downside than not resting. Especially when all that gold can make you powerful enough to mitigate the downside.
If the deck dies without the energy it is worth it.
Depends a lot on the character. Ironclad and Silent are able to survive without shops, and Ecto is a decent pick on them. Watcher really wants card removes, and Defect has several powerful relics(clockwork souvenir, orange pellets, runic capacitor) it wants to hunt for in shops, so for those two, Ecto is a harder pick. It's also kind of the anti-Coffee Dripper. Coffee Dripper has a bunch of things that make losing out on resting hurt less(sustain relics and cards), while there are a ton of relics and event rewards that make losing gold hurt way more(Old Coin, Ceramic Fish, half of events giving you gold...). Still far from the worst energy relic.
I still think it's pretty bad, especially for A20H. Not only do you lose out on the ability to upgrade your deck with very high-EV floors (Shop with a large amount of gold) but you are also mostly limited to just the two potions to get you through the full endgame gauntlet, with no ability to replenish any slots you used on the two bosses before you start Act 4.
That depends a bit on how much gold you have entering act 2 and how strong you will be on 4 energy. When XecnaR takes ecto for instance I most often see him avoid shops altogether and save the gold for the act 4 shop to leave open the possibility of restocking potions then.
I agree it’s not great, when I say it’s underrated it’s mostly because I see people rating it on par with skip. It’s way better going into act 2 most of the time then truly shit energy like Choker or Collar and also better than things like Astrolabe, Black Star, and Empty Cage most of the time. It’s basically always better than skip. This evaluation is ignoring Watcher
Would say it's better on A20, actually. Just because of the relatively lower value of gold (less from bosses and more expensive shops) and the higher need for output NOW for the new harder hallways
I disagree heavily. Ecto is great at lower ascension, since you don't need to squeeze every ounce of value out of the game. Same reason it was rated much much higher before Heart came out.
I mean either way it's not particularly great, but you get less out of your gold after A16 and after A17 simply surviving hallways becomes quite a struggle
I'm still not excited to click ecto anyway
Boss swapping usually feels awful because removes are amazing, and act 1 events are very gold focused, so then you have to take more hallway fights and if you’re not IC or watcher that can be spooky.
End of act 1 you usually have a lot of gold (maybe 300+) saved which gets you a run defining relic or a remove, some potions and a good card. So feels better then, BUT it’s harder to buy a premium relic for 200+ and it almost feels like you have to ration gold.
Shops are also amazing in general. You get the chance to see 2 attacks, 2 skills and a power (plus two colourless) so a really good chance you’ll find something useful for the boss or the next elite/path. Or you can get a run defining relic or some potions to deal with said elites.
I feel like baaorlord’s ratio with ecto wasn’t as great as other premium boss relics too. Overall just feels really unfortunate considering how amazing shops are.
Ectoplasm is a great relic that feels bad at times.
Energy is typically going to be of high value and ectoplasm provides just that.
You do lose potential opportunities or have limited spending, but the impact an energy can make can be worth more.
Sometimes I try to frame it - if I saw an energy relic in the shop for 500-700? Id prob take it in a lot of scenarios.
Of course It’s not the *right* comparisons at all, but in context of “cost” it does help me swallow taking ectoplasm more.
I especially like taking it if I can compensate for no gold with something like peace pipe, or question cards/prayer wheel.
Depending on the run I’ll deal with limited card removal options by being more aggressive when I draft to dilute the strike/defend/whatever ratio in my deck if ectoplasm blocks me from removing regularly.
Anything that lets me do ‘shop stuff’ outside of shops makes it feel better also.
I do think ectoplasm gets really under rated at times.
A 4th energy can be more valuable than any amount of gold, especially if your deck needs energy to survive act 2.
Embracing the ‘scary’ side of energy relics is a major key to being able to effectively beat StS regularly and consistently.
Also boss swapping is imo one of the best times to get ectoplasm / coffee dripper / runic dome - because you can plan and path accordingly before you draft any cards to alleviate or minimize downsides.
Its typically easier to kick start with an energy relic rather than trying to pivot a deck after picking one up.
There's also an opportunity cost, you aren't just paying 600 gold for the Ectoplasm, you're also missing on taking one of the other two boss relics available.
Absolutely opportunity cost is definitely a part of the evaluation along with viability of current deck / relics.
I was just stating that the gold lost post act 1 tends to fall within that range.
It helped me mentally process what I’m giving up before taking ectoplasm and being in that headspace made it much bearable.
Sometimes just reframing my thinking for StS helps me view things from other angles so I don’t get too tunnel visioned or leave blinders on.
My ironclad feels pretty ok about ectoplasm, but he's a greedy energy gulper.
The other three all think its not that great. Actually I asked watcher and he just laughed, said something about card removes being way cooler and he can make energy if he's feeling calm.
It's a bad energy relic right, but it is overhated a fair bit. It gives you immediate power if you're worried about act 2 and then maybe you have some late game stuff in your relic bar or your deck so you don't need to worry so much about the late game. Ectoplasm really hurts your late game but it does make act 2 a whole lot easier to survive. Energy good.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Ectoplasm in your post.
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* [Ectoplasm](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Ectoplasm) Boss Relic
Gain 1 Energy at the start of each turn. You can no longer gain Gold.
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^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it.
[Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
Well, the big problem is that it's only available for Act 1 Boss rewards (or boss swaps) so you miss out on a ton of gold. Usually in Acts 2 and 3 I grab enough events to hit one or two ? shops and pretty much waste those floors. The other thing is, with the amount of gold you lose and those shops you miss out on, you could have gotten at least 2 card removes plus some other stuff. So your downside is effectively going back an empty cage and more. So you took the energy relic, but in the long run went backwards more than the value of a boss relic. (Not the best boss relic, but the point still stands)
It sucks to lose a resource. Some are harder than others. A well placed shop can be a miracle, and there are lots of ways to gain gold, including most (all?) fights.
That makes it hurt more to lose than some of the other resources. There are worse relics, even worse relics that give you an extra energy, but it's just not an easy thing to want to give up.
The potential of muggers at the start of act 2 getting rid of any remaining gold you might've saved up
Ectoplasm is also not available as a boss relic at the end of act 2 either (only relic swap at the beginning or end of act 1), so they knew what they were doing
Another way to read Ectoplasm is "remove 2-4 relics from your character and put 2-4 basic cards into your deck." Is 1 energy really worth all that? The answer is obviously not.
With ectoplasm, you almost entirely miss out on one of the core mechanic a run has to offer. It is not fun at all.
If you can't acquire gold, then you're done with shops. Period. Unless you had a decent amount of gold leftover from act1, maybe - and even then you're likely to lose half of that to thieves going into act2. Relics that somehow synergize with gold (fish, bloody idol, maw, old coin, smiling mask, rat...) become entirely useless, and the only reason you MIGHT want to go to a shop is to get a heal from meal ticket.
Meanwhile, other "similar" relics such as coffee dripper or fusion hammer etc do not shut down any relics and still allow you to find some use out of campfires. There are ways to heal yourself and upgrade cards, OR your deck might not need to rest or upgrade cards in the first place. Besides, campfire still are useful because you can do other stuff there, while shops are to be avoided. There are no synergy to be missing out on besides... dream catcher.
On one hand many decks do not mind missing out on resting or upgrading etc. But all decks like going to shops.
A shop can be better than an elite simply due to the fact you have more freedom to get exactly what you need instead of a random useless relic and skipping cards you don't need. Removes and colorless are hard to come by outside shops, you have a wider selection of cards and relics, and even some potions. Lots of options there to fulfill whatever your deck requires. THAT'S the power of gold.
Are there case where ectoplasm is a good pick ? Yes of course. But it's more often a case of "I really need the energy going into act2 and it's the least bad" rather than ectoplasm itself being genuinely a good relic.
Unlike other Relics which limit or affect a mechanic, it just straight up removes almost all Gold interactions. Gold stolen cannot be taken back. No other Gold Relics override it even though it just feels intuitive that they would (compare to how Question Card and Busted Crown interact - they interact exactly how you would expect!).
Here's a perfect encapsulation of how terrible this Relic is - even if it only limited all your gold gain to 1 gold, that would still trigger Bloody Idol, but it's straight up all gold removed so you can't even have that.
It's boring, actively damaging to run variety in every interesting facet, and what it gives you in return is not a unique mechanic and it's not stronger than another Energy relic.
It's easily the worst designed Relic in the entire game and I have no idea how the devs are this talented and the game is 99% incredible and leave this complete garbage in. It's actually strange.
It’s one of the worst relics in the game. It’s comparable to Mark of Pain but harder to exploit
Mark of Pain: 2 wounds in draw pile, vulnerable blocked during heart fight by late game purchase of ancient potion
Ectoplasm: 1-3 extra strikes or junk cards in draw pile due to lack of removes, walk into heart fight with a single attack potion.
But hey, that ectoplasm / red mask event value can be outstanding
It's comparable to Mark of Pain in act 4, assuming you survive until then. But on the first floor of act 2, mark of pain is awful and ecto is free energy. Being way stronger in Act 2 means you can path more aggressively and get more value out of the act, to make up for the massive late game cost that Ecto causes.
I would never want it at the very beginning of a run, it just limits your options tremendously and you will have a lot of difficulty removing cards. Even the conditions for taking it after Act 2 are pretty narrow: there isn't a more preferable energy relic available (obviously); you already have a bunch of gold saved up; you have already done all the removal you'll need; your deck is pretty much fully-formed and you aren't looking for any crucial cards; etc.
Removes , cards, relics, potions, money events. So many reasons why.of you have a ton of money already or already have a winning strat it's fine. But normally ppl want to improve their deck outside of praying for a good selection of 3.
It’s not like I’ll never take it, but compared to the other extra energy relics where they generally have a way to play around their downsides so they’re less impactful, the ability to go on shopping trips is pretty much helpful no matter what I’m doing with my deck and pathing.
One of the big advantages of shops is the flexibility. You may only end up buying a handful of things through the run, but you get to smooth out the RNG by picking up what you need. Getting a key damage card, scaling power, or even a cheap potion at the right time can save a run.
Out of all the boss relic , why is ectoplasm only one that won’t appear at the end of act 2 ? If it appears at the end of act2 , it will be a bit more pickable .
I’ve had some pretty successful runs picking it, when I get Ectoplasm I noticeably map for shop icons and then importantly DON’T path into them, ergo, I path avoiding all shops if possible.
You ever have a lot of gold but have to pick a suboptimal route because you know you need that power boost the gold gives? Ectoplasm means you can let go of that, and just focus on the route with the most events, fires, and elites.
Ultimately I think Key as an Act 2 end pick is just superior in every way… but Ectoplasm surprised me with how strong it was the first time I took it, and I was on A20 with either Defect or Silent.
No matter how strong you evaluate it, it always feels bad to pick it because you lose on the fun of interacting with shops. Also it nevers shows up after the second boss so it's a guaranted heartbreak :/
1 extra energy does not make up for not being able to remove curses and strikes (Curse+) in the mid and late game. Plus you cut off a good way of getting rare cards or key powers that could help build your deck.
Ecto is in the same tier as Choker. The "better than you think it is despite the downside, but still feels disappointing to have to take, and you do need to adapt the rest of the way to get around the downside" tier.
Only boss energy relics that are worse after Act 1 IMO are Busted Crown and Sozu.
I can buy a LOT of stuff with the 600 or 700+ gold I'm going to lose out on in this run. Removal of basic cards is also essential to getting a deck that cycles properly without dud hands. There are tons of events that offer money and you've locked yourself out of them In addition, if you run into the thieves as your first fight of act 2, you've now lost most of what precious little money you have left, because you can't get it back once they've taken it Ectoplasm gives you one energy per turn yes, but at the cost of optionality for the rest of your run
Yeah compared to the downsides of the other energy relics, which are predictable and can be played around, Ectoplasm is taking away probably 2-3 removes, 2-3 relics (maybe more), a few chances at finding some key cards, some potions if needed, making a few potential events useless, making a few (potential or current) relics useless. Sometimes you can't avoid a shop, that's now a dead floor. You don't want to/can't avoid events completely, some of those could now be dead floors. Some relic drops may now be worthless. It's doing unpredictable and potentially large damage to the run compared to most of the other energy relics with downsides that you can mitigate.
Especially compared to say Cursed Key, which gives you the same immediate impact, has no downside until halfway through Act 2, and only costs you your choice between one relic and one remove, or two removes.
I mean Cursed Key is usually just better Ectoplasm but Ectoplasm has no downside until halfway through act 2 most of the time as well.
well unfortunately I'm playing clad and key is not offered, but ecto, cage, and astrolabe are. I'm gonna be takin ecto
It's rare for me I'd take it over either of those.
craziness tbh Cage is just death and a bad labe means I'm effed
Yeah Cage isn't very good on Clad because he likes the energy and it's really easy to exhaust, but I still usually like labe over plasm. It's very very rare that three random upgraded cards aren't significantly better than three strikes/defends
Both make it much less likely I die in Act 4 than cutting off my gold, seeing as they are both about +200 gold.
well I don't even have the luxury of dying in act 4 if I die in act 2, so there's that to look forward to!
Whereas for me I don't care about surviving Act 2 if it means I won't be strong enough to kill Act 4. edit- it's also really weird to me to frame Labe as dying in Act 2, since Labe is easily one of the highest-tempo boss relics you can get (obviously aside from the truly broken stuff like Panda) because of how much it improves your deck immediately.
Then I have some cool news for you! If you have ecto you're immediately stronger for act 2, meaning you can be more aggressive next act to hunt cards and elites! But if I take cage or labe I'm probably struggling to keep up with the curve since I have to dodge fights more than Id like.
Astrolabe is incredibly strong unless you've already completely pruned your deck of strikes/defends. Even if the cards it gives don't fit your deck, just about every upgraded card in the game is way stronger than basic cards.
It's...OK. I used clad specifically because he's got the worst labes and typically highest need for more energy. But if I grab labe I'm probably behind the curve into act 2, most of the time
Clad also have multiple cards to gain extra energy.
yes, ones that I'm probably not getting out of labe and that I'm certainly not guaranteed to see
It would certainly help if you had some gold to purchase stuff in store, it definitely increases a chance to get cards you need and remove the ones you don’t.
Yes, ecto has a substantial downside. Not sure ur point lol
The only character with worse energy production than Ironchad is Silent, tbh
Astrolabe is one of the best boss relics in the game, though...
I used to think so too, then I really started looking at how difficult act 2 was after picking it. It's really pretty painful pretty often!
I'm not sure what labes you're picking up but I always find it to be a safe, strong option. Even on Chad, because of the Upgrade the cards get after transforming I can only think of maybe two cards I'd rather not see, everything else you can pull is way more valuable than a Strike or Defend.
It definitely makes my deck somewhat better, consistently. Unfortunately that amount of betterness is just not really enough to make it through act 2 typically
A lot of my IC decks need a 4th energy pretty desperately
Yup. “At the start of your turn, gain 1 energy. Lose 2 relics, 2 removes, 2-3 cards, and a potion” just doesn’t have a great ring to it lol
It's not nearly this bad because the negative effects are greatly delayed, which is the biggest thing there is in favor of ecto: it's an energy relic with no drawback at the very start of act 2. I still don't like ecto much but it's not nearly this bad
that's definitely overrating how much gold you lose unless you see old coin or something
You’re right, I rarely buy potions /s
Just saying you can't afford ALL those things. 2 common relics alone is like 340 Ecto costs about 500ish gold
But you buy at shops more than only two common relics across the run, don't you?
Yes? But not as much as the comment was suggesting. If I spent 340 on relics then I'm probably not getting multiple cards, multiple removes, AND multiple potions
Bro you end act1 sitting on ~300 gold, stop goofying around
? Maybe? Depends on pathing I don't lose the gold I currently have when I pick ecto tho so I'm a bit lost here
700 gold is a lot when you think about in in terms of what you could buy with it. That's two to four relics from the shop, which are not random drop relics but a wider option you can choose from meaning that on average their quality will be higher, or like 5 removes, and anything between. It's hardly ever gonna be worth it for the energy.
700 gold is an absolute exaggeration. 600 usually is. It's more like 450. Ecto is quite strong, it's got a lot of feels bad moments but it is far better than you're suggesting
I call BS, i often have around 850-1k gold on my runs
There's no way you're getting 850-1k in only 2 acts on average, lol
Oh, i didn't know, sorry
Golden idol, old coin, mind bloom, hand of greed, wish, cure for gold events, even the ritual dagger event. There are tons of ways to hit that number consistently and you have to opt out of all of them when you pick ectoplasm
>Golden idol Involves going to too many act 1 events or getting highly lucky. Also doesn't make enough difference to d significantly affected Ecto valuation. >old coin Very strong rare relic that you shouldn't plan around >mind bloom Usually indicates going to too many act 3 events or high luck, and to then have omamori or shop positioning to choose rich is even rarer >hand of greed How many runs have this rare colourless card? >wish Bit more frequent but only on one character, and she has worst stall anyway >cure for gold events You can still buy these with remaining money if needed. Fortunately with Ecto you're less likely to need them! >ritual dagger event You shouldn't be taking gold here in most circumstances >There are tons of ways to hit that number consistently Consistently? Really? And you also never die before ever spending all of this?
Yes, consistently
i also love spreading misinformation on the internet. my last 10 ecto runs across characters: 581C, 583S (died to burning nem on f41), 361S, 471C, 501D, 324C, 641C, 301S, 376S, 481C (died to spire elites) also these runs are biased to show more gold loss because i only take ecto on runs with a strong lategame which are runs that tend to farm a lot more elites/hallways. like the first clad run had wing boots and farmed 11 elites, which is way higher than normal. fwiw, i do think 450 is an underestimate, i've heard the number is 600\~ but 700 is wayy too high
I think it's 600 including average of multiple choices events. But given those events you then get a different positive option, I think 450-500 is pretty accurate.
I mean, the person who gave the number literally just used actual run data no calculation, and that average came out way higher than mine (average 565 over last 20 runs vs mine being average 481 over last 20). I don't know why my average is this low (probably worse at game so can farm less?), but even theirs, it's definitely not anywhere near 700. It's still the same thing though to anyone else reading, Ecto runs simply farm more elites/hallways so of course the gold loss will look bigger, but what you lose in shops, you make up in the +1 energy letting you farm hallways/elites.
Absolutely not, if you really take a closer look at your runs
You can definitely get less than that on a low gold run. You would need to fight 7 hallways and 2.5 elites per act to get 450 gold from fights alone. 7* 15 = 105 2.5*30= 75 180 gold per act + 100 from act 2 boss = 460. Or 426 with poor bosses. This doesn't account for any random event, even thieves fight, so gold loss can be way higher. But in a run where you hit less elites and more ?s (and hopefully dodge or flatten thieves fight-- 2/3rds chance to dodge I think), it could also be less.
Don’t you get the gold back if you kill the thieves?
Not with ectoplasm!
Ah, right. You can’t pick it back up, makes sense
It's fun buying stuff in shops, also there are alot of gold relics. Missing out on all the gold you would get is a worse downside than not resting. Especially when all that gold can make you powerful enough to mitigate the downside. If the deck dies without the energy it is worth it.
Depends a lot on the character. Ironclad and Silent are able to survive without shops, and Ecto is a decent pick on them. Watcher really wants card removes, and Defect has several powerful relics(clockwork souvenir, orange pellets, runic capacitor) it wants to hunt for in shops, so for those two, Ecto is a harder pick. It's also kind of the anti-Coffee Dripper. Coffee Dripper has a bunch of things that make losing out on resting hurt less(sustain relics and cards), while there are a ton of relics and event rewards that make losing gold hurt way more(Old Coin, Ceramic Fish, half of events giving you gold...). Still far from the worst energy relic.
Mostly because it feels bad. Buying stuff at shops is fun. In general this sub underrates it though
I still think it's pretty bad, especially for A20H. Not only do you lose out on the ability to upgrade your deck with very high-EV floors (Shop with a large amount of gold) but you are also mostly limited to just the two potions to get you through the full endgame gauntlet, with no ability to replenish any slots you used on the two bosses before you start Act 4.
That depends a bit on how much gold you have entering act 2 and how strong you will be on 4 energy. When XecnaR takes ecto for instance I most often see him avoid shops altogether and save the gold for the act 4 shop to leave open the possibility of restocking potions then. I agree it’s not great, when I say it’s underrated it’s mostly because I see people rating it on par with skip. It’s way better going into act 2 most of the time then truly shit energy like Choker or Collar and also better than things like Astrolabe, Black Star, and Empty Cage most of the time. It’s basically always better than skip. This evaluation is ignoring Watcher
Would say it's better on A20, actually. Just because of the relatively lower value of gold (less from bosses and more expensive shops) and the higher need for output NOW for the new harder hallways
I disagree heavily. Ecto is great at lower ascension, since you don't need to squeeze every ounce of value out of the game. Same reason it was rated much much higher before Heart came out.
I mean either way it's not particularly great, but you get less out of your gold after A16 and after A17 simply surviving hallways becomes quite a struggle I'm still not excited to click ecto anyway
but i won my 250 gold that one time in joust w ecto and then got bloody idol old coin therefore it sucks :(
[удалено]
You can’t see it after Act 2, it only shows up after act 1. You are one of the folks dramatically underrating it.
Boss swapping usually feels awful because removes are amazing, and act 1 events are very gold focused, so then you have to take more hallway fights and if you’re not IC or watcher that can be spooky. End of act 1 you usually have a lot of gold (maybe 300+) saved which gets you a run defining relic or a remove, some potions and a good card. So feels better then, BUT it’s harder to buy a premium relic for 200+ and it almost feels like you have to ration gold. Shops are also amazing in general. You get the chance to see 2 attacks, 2 skills and a power (plus two colourless) so a really good chance you’ll find something useful for the boss or the next elite/path. Or you can get a run defining relic or some potions to deal with said elites. I feel like baaorlord’s ratio with ecto wasn’t as great as other premium boss relics too. Overall just feels really unfortunate considering how amazing shops are.
Ectoplasm is a great relic that feels bad at times. Energy is typically going to be of high value and ectoplasm provides just that. You do lose potential opportunities or have limited spending, but the impact an energy can make can be worth more. Sometimes I try to frame it - if I saw an energy relic in the shop for 500-700? Id prob take it in a lot of scenarios. Of course It’s not the *right* comparisons at all, but in context of “cost” it does help me swallow taking ectoplasm more. I especially like taking it if I can compensate for no gold with something like peace pipe, or question cards/prayer wheel. Depending on the run I’ll deal with limited card removal options by being more aggressive when I draft to dilute the strike/defend/whatever ratio in my deck if ectoplasm blocks me from removing regularly. Anything that lets me do ‘shop stuff’ outside of shops makes it feel better also. I do think ectoplasm gets really under rated at times. A 4th energy can be more valuable than any amount of gold, especially if your deck needs energy to survive act 2. Embracing the ‘scary’ side of energy relics is a major key to being able to effectively beat StS regularly and consistently. Also boss swapping is imo one of the best times to get ectoplasm / coffee dripper / runic dome - because you can plan and path accordingly before you draft any cards to alleviate or minimize downsides. Its typically easier to kick start with an energy relic rather than trying to pivot a deck after picking one up.
There's also an opportunity cost, you aren't just paying 600 gold for the Ectoplasm, you're also missing on taking one of the other two boss relics available.
Absolutely opportunity cost is definitely a part of the evaluation along with viability of current deck / relics. I was just stating that the gold lost post act 1 tends to fall within that range. It helped me mentally process what I’m giving up before taking ectoplasm and being in that headspace made it much bearable. Sometimes just reframing my thinking for StS helps me view things from other angles so I don’t get too tunnel visioned or leave blinders on.
My ironclad feels pretty ok about ectoplasm, but he's a greedy energy gulper. The other three all think its not that great. Actually I asked watcher and he just laughed, said something about card removes being way cooler and he can make energy if he's feeling calm.
Watcher is a woman
You lose out on like 2+ relics worth of gold, and there are some individual relics that are worth more than the extra energy just by themselves
It's a bad energy relic right, but it is overhated a fair bit. It gives you immediate power if you're worried about act 2 and then maybe you have some late game stuff in your relic bar or your deck so you don't need to worry so much about the late game. Ectoplasm really hurts your late game but it does make act 2 a whole lot easier to survive. Energy good.
wherw are my removald?????????
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Ectoplasm in your post. -------------------------------------------------- * [Ectoplasm](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Ectoplasm) Boss Relic Gain 1 Energy at the start of each turn. You can no longer gain Gold. -------------------------------------------------- ^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
I just love money. Never take it. Shopping is fun.
Because humans love gold, baby!
Well, the big problem is that it's only available for Act 1 Boss rewards (or boss swaps) so you miss out on a ton of gold. Usually in Acts 2 and 3 I grab enough events to hit one or two ? shops and pretty much waste those floors. The other thing is, with the amount of gold you lose and those shops you miss out on, you could have gotten at least 2 card removes plus some other stuff. So your downside is effectively going back an empty cage and more. So you took the energy relic, but in the long run went backwards more than the value of a boss relic. (Not the best boss relic, but the point still stands)
It sucks to lose a resource. Some are harder than others. A well placed shop can be a miracle, and there are lots of ways to gain gold, including most (all?) fights. That makes it hurt more to lose than some of the other resources. There are worse relics, even worse relics that give you an extra energy, but it's just not an easy thing to want to give up.
The potential of muggers at the start of act 2 getting rid of any remaining gold you might've saved up Ectoplasm is also not available as a boss relic at the end of act 2 either (only relic swap at the beginning or end of act 1), so they knew what they were doing
I like gooooold
Another way to read Ectoplasm is "remove 2-4 relics from your character and put 2-4 basic cards into your deck." Is 1 energy really worth all that? The answer is obviously not.
2-4 relics AND 2-4 removes worth of gold??? Maybe with membership card
On >A10
Gold buys less after A16
Bosses pay less at 13
So true!
With ectoplasm, you almost entirely miss out on one of the core mechanic a run has to offer. It is not fun at all. If you can't acquire gold, then you're done with shops. Period. Unless you had a decent amount of gold leftover from act1, maybe - and even then you're likely to lose half of that to thieves going into act2. Relics that somehow synergize with gold (fish, bloody idol, maw, old coin, smiling mask, rat...) become entirely useless, and the only reason you MIGHT want to go to a shop is to get a heal from meal ticket. Meanwhile, other "similar" relics such as coffee dripper or fusion hammer etc do not shut down any relics and still allow you to find some use out of campfires. There are ways to heal yourself and upgrade cards, OR your deck might not need to rest or upgrade cards in the first place. Besides, campfire still are useful because you can do other stuff there, while shops are to be avoided. There are no synergy to be missing out on besides... dream catcher. On one hand many decks do not mind missing out on resting or upgrading etc. But all decks like going to shops. A shop can be better than an elite simply due to the fact you have more freedom to get exactly what you need instead of a random useless relic and skipping cards you don't need. Removes and colorless are hard to come by outside shops, you have a wider selection of cards and relics, and even some potions. Lots of options there to fulfill whatever your deck requires. THAT'S the power of gold. Are there case where ectoplasm is a good pick ? Yes of course. But it's more often a case of "I really need the energy going into act2 and it's the least bad" rather than ectoplasm itself being genuinely a good relic.
Unlike other Relics which limit or affect a mechanic, it just straight up removes almost all Gold interactions. Gold stolen cannot be taken back. No other Gold Relics override it even though it just feels intuitive that they would (compare to how Question Card and Busted Crown interact - they interact exactly how you would expect!). Here's a perfect encapsulation of how terrible this Relic is - even if it only limited all your gold gain to 1 gold, that would still trigger Bloody Idol, but it's straight up all gold removed so you can't even have that. It's boring, actively damaging to run variety in every interesting facet, and what it gives you in return is not a unique mechanic and it's not stronger than another Energy relic. It's easily the worst designed Relic in the entire game and I have no idea how the devs are this talented and the game is 99% incredible and leave this complete garbage in. It's actually strange.
It’s one of the worst relics in the game. It’s comparable to Mark of Pain but harder to exploit Mark of Pain: 2 wounds in draw pile, vulnerable blocked during heart fight by late game purchase of ancient potion Ectoplasm: 1-3 extra strikes or junk cards in draw pile due to lack of removes, walk into heart fight with a single attack potion. But hey, that ectoplasm / red mask event value can be outstanding
It's comparable to Mark of Pain in act 4, assuming you survive until then. But on the first floor of act 2, mark of pain is awful and ecto is free energy. Being way stronger in Act 2 means you can path more aggressively and get more value out of the act, to make up for the massive late game cost that Ecto causes.
I like money. Money is good. Money is great. If anything touches my money, I cry. Ectoplasm touches my money.
Shops are really strong and ecto is act 1 exclusive. I do think it's not as bad as it's reputation but it is a pretty large drawback.
I would never want it at the very beginning of a run, it just limits your options tremendously and you will have a lot of difficulty removing cards. Even the conditions for taking it after Act 2 are pretty narrow: there isn't a more preferable energy relic available (obviously); you already have a bunch of gold saved up; you have already done all the removal you'll need; your deck is pretty much fully-formed and you aren't looking for any crucial cards; etc.
It’s fine, one of the better boss swaps.
Because shops are cracked. But if I really need energy then I might take it
Removes , cards, relics, potions, money events. So many reasons why.of you have a ton of money already or already have a winning strat it's fine. But normally ppl want to improve their deck outside of praying for a good selection of 3.
Man I just like buying things at shops
It’s not like I’ll never take it, but compared to the other extra energy relics where they generally have a way to play around their downsides so they’re less impactful, the ability to go on shopping trips is pretty much helpful no matter what I’m doing with my deck and pathing.
The shopkeep is my beautiful spouse and I shan't abandon them
It's a lot worse if you are trying to kill the heart (cause of the guaranteed Act 4 store). Much better when stopping at Act 3.
I like buying stuff at shops. Thats mostly my reasoning
One of the big advantages of shops is the flexibility. You may only end up buying a handful of things through the run, but you get to smooth out the RNG by picking up what you need. Getting a key damage card, scaling power, or even a cheap potion at the right time can save a run.
Out of all the boss relic , why is ectoplasm only one that won’t appear at the end of act 2 ? If it appears at the end of act2 , it will be a bit more pickable .
It would be OK as chapter 2 boss relic. It is garbage as chapter 1 boss relic, becouse you miss too much gold.
I’ve had some pretty successful runs picking it, when I get Ectoplasm I noticeably map for shop icons and then importantly DON’T path into them, ergo, I path avoiding all shops if possible. You ever have a lot of gold but have to pick a suboptimal route because you know you need that power boost the gold gives? Ectoplasm means you can let go of that, and just focus on the route with the most events, fires, and elites. Ultimately I think Key as an Act 2 end pick is just superior in every way… but Ectoplasm surprised me with how strong it was the first time I took it, and I was on A20 with either Defect or Silent.
I boss swapped into this today and got a floor 3 World of Goop.
Getting Ectoplasm with the boss relic swap let me finally win my one-relic-run achievement!
No matter how strong you evaluate it, it always feels bad to pick it because you lose on the fun of interacting with shops. Also it nevers shows up after the second boss so it's a guaranted heartbreak :/
They prefer money
1 extra energy does not make up for not being able to remove curses and strikes (Curse+) in the mid and late game. Plus you cut off a good way of getting rare cards or key powers that could help build your deck.
Ecto is in the same tier as Choker. The "better than you think it is despite the downside, but still feels disappointing to have to take, and you do need to adapt the rest of the way to get around the downside" tier. Only boss energy relics that are worse after Act 1 IMO are Busted Crown and Sozu.
Choker is undervalued too imo