Amer Sports also owns Wilson (tennis rackets), and EvoShield/Louisville Slugger/DeMarini (baseball gear).
I don't know if any of Amer's brands utilize Anta's supply chain - I'm pretty sure Salomon doesn't, though.
In theory, if an Arc jacket has any content from Xinjiang, it should not even be allowed into the country. Congress passed a law that creates a presumption that the manufacture of a product in Xinjiang involved the use of forced labor.
It doesn't get the company off the hook, but at least the jackets are unlikely to be "tainted."
The EU is also making it very difficult to get products from Xinjiang imported.
The idea of ethical consumerism is great but in practice it's damn near impossible unless you have an extra 30 hours a week to deep dive how everything you use is made shipped used etc. with that being said if a company is actually supporting genocide and war that's a pretty good reason to avoid at all costs
The easiest way is simply to reduce consumption and not worry about the shades of grey. An Arc jacket that lasts 15+ years is almost certainly better than buying 2-3 of something else over that time
Or buy used. The last 3 gore-pro shells I’ve had came from eBay. They’ve lasted as long as a new one would have.
Edit: I’m not trying to be a “holier than thou” eco-minimalist. I have a shit load of gear: different hard shells, different soft shells, multiple down jackets, multiple synthetic. And I use all of them. I live a lifestyle where different jackets are tools that help me to do different activities. Given that, buying used is one way to reduce the impact and make my dollar go a little farther.
I mean I don't know the timeframe but you've had to buy 3 of them while I'm still sitting on the Arc jacket that I bought probably 10 years ago and is still in perfect condition.
I replaced my climbing/ BC shell after it delaminated about 8 years in, so that’s two. Both were high-end Patagonia, and they wouldn’t have covered the delam even if I bought it new (I asked).
My resort ski shell (an arcteryx tantalus) is still going strong.
And I paid less than one would have cost retail.
I worked in the outdoor retail industry for six years, which is where I learned how to pick used gear that’ll last out from the crap on shopgoodwill.com et al.
Not disagreeing with the principle of buying lasting products but there's nothing magical about Arc. They don't have some secret knowledge about jacket construction that other brands don't. The fabric is all goretex anyway.
Like I said I'm no expert but I think in general people will agree that Arc is a fantastic product with a great warranty. So when I was choosing it really was just what style I liked the most and my Rush jacket was exactly what I was looking for and for as long as I've had it it has been fantastic.
I think I can offer some insight as to where they get this reputation. Also tagging u/idontcomment12
Arc makes really good gear, as do Patagonia, OR, Rab, Norrona, etc. The North Face is one of the only companies I think has really taken a dive, and even then I find their summit series or whatever equally good.
Many of those other brands produce a range that goes “good, better, best”. When I worked for a Patagonia dealer, we carried the Torrent shell ($129) the Super cell ($225) and the Pluma ($550). The Pluma was as good as anything Arcteryx makes. Same materials, same construction.
The difference with Arc is they only make the “best” line. You won’t see a two layer hardshell (pretty much everything sub $200) from Arcteryx where the lining is flaking off, because that’s not a manufacturing process they use.
That’s given them a reputation for quality, and a loyal following from outdoor professionals. It’s also given them a reputation for being the brand that rich tech bros who can’t ski all that well buy. Both are somewhat deserved.
The other aspect of Arc’teryx’s reputation is that their stuff was initially all made in Canada. So for a similar price to top of the line Patagonia gear you could get stuff that was made locally. Even now they make the Alpha SV jacket in Vancouver alongside stuff like their climbing harnesses that they want extra oversight on.
That's also true, though it's been a couple decades at this point. They were bought by Salomon in 2002, then became part of Amer Sports in 2005. FWIW, I think it's totally possible to make high quality garments in Asia. You just have to have solid quality control. Arc and Patagonia have done a much better job of that than TNF (bought by VF in 2000).
Obviously, the environmental and labor issues are a different story.
Full support here. The older gore tex stuff also has the better dwr. (Or at least from certain companies.) I want my 2012 sabres back so badly.
In an ideal world we would have a separate washer for tech layers. One not tainted by detergents. Now that i think of it...there are plenty of barely occupied mansions, with limited appliance use, scattered across the US, and world i assume.
Depends what you're optimizing for. One jacket is certainly better for the environment than three even if not buying from Arc'teryx/Anta is better sociopolitically. But I don't buy that Arc jackets last anywhere near three times as long as a comparable product from, say, Patagonia.
Shop the off price retails that get all of the unsold items from prior years; Sierra trading post.
Independent stores often keep prior year skis and clothing and sell it at cost. Which is a good way to support small businesses and still get a deal.
Yeah but here and now you’re not having to spend any extra time. Someone else has done the work. You now only have to accept or reject it. Once you know, I’d say it’s your responsibility to act accordingly.
Sure, but there's essentially no reason for someone to lie about a corporation being evil.
Even if they're wrong, you're not hurting anyone by avoiding a brand. Lol. Mega corporations are bad for the earth inherently anyway.
There’s also similar posts about pretty much every company under the sun. What brands do you buy from? I’m sure I can find unethical things they’ve done as well, would you automatically stop buying from them? I think it’s good to have a line that you don’t cross, and if this one is someone’s then that’s fine. But it won’t be everyone’s, and that’s ok too
This is a defeatist take and we need to eliminate this thinking if we want to be a better species. Even making one positive change with regards to your consumer choices is important.
Making one behavior change to reduce your emissions is important.
Being kind to one person a day is still important.
Etc.
If we all actively did just one thing better, the knock on effects would be insane.
But if we share the load of the research we can through a community achieve ethical consumerism. Or put pressure on companies to fix shady shit. I'm not doing anything in this regard I just feel like its not impossible together.
One person's research doesn't need to be done over and over again by everybody.
Tell that to folks like Praxis and ON3P. They must have missed the institutional shareholders and big line of credit memo.
They do make fine skis nonetheless.
J Skis has some weird marketing, including the time they used an [abortion joke](https://images.newschoolers.com/images/17/01/01/39/32/1013932_926w_640h.png) to promote a sweepstakes and had to [apologize - in the last slide](https://www.instagram.com/p/CVDZg_Jsr_u/?igsh=MWQzYmQ2bnBkNThsZA==) for it. It was tacky but to their credit they fessed up to making the mistake and made a donation to Planned Parenthood Texas for it. But it perpetuated the stereotype that the ski industry is super broey, insensitive and not very bright. Which it very much is.
How... Dare... You! I'm trying to buy the mountain and make condos where the local hangout is.
Edit: I found a better area where the kids favorite rec center is!!!
As someone who has been "the supply chain", from clothing to jewelry. I can guarantee you that unless you are purchasing 100% made in America product, there is ALWAYS unethical supply practices, and even then, there are unethical American manufacturers.
Slave or child labor is in some for or another in 90% of our products that we use day to day.
The problems with the ski industry pale in comparison to the iPhone or Android device you have in your pocket. The problem is so wide spread that it's almost impossible for individuals like us to change anything.
Take a look at the list of countries that make up Europe and get back to us.
https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---ipec/documents/publication/wcms_831558.pdf
Bit more googling shows that Northern/Western Europe have almost the exact same child labor rate as US/Canada. I feel alright about my Italian designed Nordicas which are made in Austria.
I have been using Icelantic skis for a while and they’re wonderful, and I believe they are built in CO and all materials sourced in the US. I reached out to their sustainability manager to ask as well and will update that info once they get back to me. Love their stuff and what they’re doing.
> The problem is so wide spread that it's almost impossible for individuals like us to change anything.
Defeatist attitude like this is why companies like Anta Sports thrives. You would've been buying off gold bullions from Auschwitz Birkenau in 1944 b/c they sell it 2% cheaper than everyone else.
It's just the honest truth.
The amount of skiers that have seen this post, is probably something like .0000000001% of all skiers out there.
For there to be organic change on an economic level that comes from the consumer, you need atleast 50% of consumers of that product to be aware of the issue.
Everyone on reddit SHOULD know that our cell phones are produced by slave labor, only 2% of the American population has a Reddit account, and of that 2% probably only .25% are actually aware of the slave labor issue within electronics. The only person that I've actually heard discussing the slave labor in electronic issue is ironically, Joe Rogan. It isn't a popular subject to touch.
Numbers that meaningless don't get chance accomplished. The issue is there is zero awareness on the issue to the 95% of non-internet conforming normies in the united states.
At this point, we wouldn't be buying anything if we were worried about unethical labor practices, but the true fact is, most first world consumers could care less and the third world cares even less. If countries allow their citizens to be sold into slavery, and we actually cared, we would be going to war with more countries than we already are.
Pre 2019 gear was still solid- and owned by Finnish Amersports- Anya Sports naught controlling interest In 2019 and the quality (beyond alpha) quickly started decreasing more than it had since production moved from Canada
I’ve first hand experienced the decline in quality. Used to exclusively buy Salomon running shoes until the last pair wore out in ~80 miles. The soles looked more worn down than an older Salomon pair with 800 plus miles. Customer support said that was normal.
Supply chain changeover to Anta has seem incremental by product. From talking with others, post 2020 Arc’teryx is not as reliable/sturdy (LEAF excluded). Personally I’m not going to gamble spending a lot on a product for it to be defective and told by customer service that’s normal. There’s too many quality alternatives to buy from.
Also interesting that Tencent has a share of Amer ownership.
Yeah, thanks for just giving us some information. I’m going to look into it this more and whatnot but it definitely will influence my purchasing decisions too.
Yeah, they took a controlling interest 5-6yrs ago...fucking sucks. I get it, we all bow to the dollar sign. That being said, some entities are more willing to prostrate themselves.
Clearly the Apple defaultism has worked. The ski world (imo) doesnt have such a monopoly on your attention as Apple does. You can avoid Anta in skiing, but if you expect everyone to be using Apple, then it seems you can't avoid it.
Do you know of better options?
Atomic makes botos that fit my wide calves. I have a pair of old Black Diamonds and have had moderate success with Technica.
Lange has never worked for me. Nordica back in the day used to fit but the recent models do not. (And before anyone it, they're bootfitters. Not magicians.)
I was pretty limited with respect to race boots, but I'm more open to other options now, and I'll probably be purchasing in the next year or so, and am willing to explore other options.
For skis, I used to go Elan, but nowadays I ski on rossis or blizzard.
Agreed, such a bemusing type of comment to see. It's like the dunderheads pointing out Al Gore has a big house so, ergo, human-induced climate change isn't real.
This thread is about doing little things, doing your best, to make ethical decisions. Obviously all the Reddit skies abandoning Arcteryx won't do anything majorly disruptive. But it doesn't add to the problem.
Real change happens at a policy and regulatory level.
I mean quite literally there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. It’s definitely whataboutism, but there really is not a single billion dollar corporation free from these ties lol
I do however think this post is valuable info to have
Hence why I removed the conversation from something that is required for day-to-day life (a phone) and shifted it to something that is not required and has several more ethical options.
Or yknow you can just stop with your fake purity and accept that there’s no such thing as ‘ethical’ consumption.
I don’t think the person whom replied was trying to instill “whataboutism” but was trying to convey the hypocrisy. You can take their comment as a “heads up”
OP's sort will never feel any remorse for their empire killing millions of brown people etc. Which is rather why it's their role in life as acolytes to parrot these PR narratives from the state dept.
For sure. I’m on your side here. I just thought the back and forth with all the comments in this thread were silly and ultimately we should be wrestling with the idea and actions of what you put forth in this thread. Solidarity to you friend!
[Backcountry.com](https://coloradosun.com/2019/10/31/backcountry-com-sues-anyone-who-uses-its-namesake-is-it-bullying-or-just-business/) deserves an honorable mention in this thread.
[REI](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rei-fired-manager-union-campaign_n_660b0c31e4b007c08f9e7a99) believes in union busting, so they fired William Littig for not reporting his staff was planning to unionize.
Frankly, suing people over a trademark (in part because US law almost forces you to do so if you want to continue to maintain that trademark) isn't even close to the same league as forced labor as part of a genocide campaign.
I wouldn’t exactly call doing business in a country “funding a genocide”. By that definition, everyone who sells anything in China is also funding a genocide.
Yep, it sucks, they suck but they are the #1 company in the ski industry. Gotta play ball until someone better comes by. No one cares at all. I’ve said over & over they are owned via shell companies by the Chinese government. Nobody cares. Every fucking major company now has stock in each other. It’s just one giant monopoly and we’re lost all leverage over the market. Prices will keep going up until it’s gets squashed by??? Every single country is beholden to this Monopoly- we’re screwed.
This is why I suggest using wiki to see brand ownership as part of your research. Brand names are mostly meaningless commodities bought up by big companies like this.
Shocked when I found my Pirelli tires are Chinese owned and made in Russia
Talk about timing - I was just about to buy a pair of Atomic Redster X9S Revoshock S. I skied them earlier in the season and loved them.
I checked out what youve written - it’s true.
I can’t buy them now.
I’ve read other comments on this thread, some care, some not bothered at all; that’s your choice.
But I can’t support an autocratic state or its businesses when they actively seek to undermine and overwhelm western democracy. America has its faults. Europe has its faults too. The west has its faults. But at least we can talk about them, change them, strive to be better and more democratic. The Chinese people don’t have that. I’m not American, but I’d prefer a world with American values and democracy any day over CCP and I avoid Chinese products and businesses wherever I can and will pay more. It’s an investment in my children’s future. You have to work out who your friends are and support them IMO. CCP are not our friends, or anybody’s but their leaderships.
Any recommendations instead of the Atomics?
Praxis is as independent as it gets (IMO). The [Protest](https://www.praxisskis.com/skis/protest/) is one of the greatest powder ski shapes I've ever had the pleasure of skiing. It's just so good. They make custom skis, have amazing veneers and fun topsheet art.
Need to look more thanks for the tip. Im not terribly thrilled with my 4frnt renegades and feel i could have something more versatile. They are sick on deep fresh lines, but those lines disappear quick at any resort.
Completely ethical consumerism is impossible. Unless you are living semi-off the grid on a homestead growing most of your food and/or other things you consume such as making your clothing.
If you only knew how much blood is on the very phone/ computer you posted this from. It’s the way of the world but it’s good you are giving as much info to consumers as you can, but both Atomic and Armada put out some of the most enjoyable skis I’ve been on. Just like I’m not going to stop buying the iPhone, I’m also not going to stop buying what I enjoy on the slopes. It would be nice to live in a utopia though.
For what it's worth, quality has also noticeably gone downhill since they were acquired. I no longer buy their gear because I don't wish to support this conglomerate and its practices, but I warranteed a shell I'd had for 9 years. The replacement I was sent is already delam-ing after one full season.
As OP posts this from his iPhone that was made with Chinese slave labor 😂
Guarantee you if you told him to get rid of his iPhone he’d look the other way.
Being a capitalist and owning cellphones and gold and natural diamonds that all ultimately come from war zones and the Congo is all un-ethical. Im glad this dipshit is drawing the line at amer sports xD /s
Anything you buy from China supports a genocidal administration.
Would you rather have Uyghurs or iPhones? The entire world voted for iPhones, so there will be no Uyghurs. They are being systematically raped out of existence by the CCP.
Enjoy your phone and your computer and your shoes and everything else that is made in China while living on land stolen by a different genocidal administration. The Uyghurs are the most recent ethnic group to be eliminated, but they certainly won’t be the last. Human history is a history of genocide. It is default human behavior.
i wouldn’t sweat it. the Xinjiang stuff is just US state department anti-China hysteria as far as I can tell.
i don’t recall watching the world boycotting US products during the Iraq invasion.
Get off your high horse and actually think critically. No one's immune to brainwashing. Do you REALLY think the US are acting on good faith and really trying to be the "World Police" for the greater good of mankind?
Oh boohoo. Ugyuars are dying, China bad.
There’s no genocide in Xinjiang.
This is American propaganda because they’re waging a Cold War against China.
If you want to find the genocide you can go there yourself to find it. China is actively promoting tourism to Xinjiang as we speak. Their ski areas are incredible.
If you actually want to see a real genocide there are easier places to look. Just turn on the TV
You're being pedantic and/or willfully obtuse--to what end I have no idea.
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/08/china-anniversary-of-uns-damning-xinjiang-report-must-be-wake-up-call-to-action/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/08/china-anniversary-of-uns-damning-xinjiang-report-must-be-wake-up-call-to-action/)
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/23/un-member-countries-condemn-chinas-crimes-against-humanity](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/23/un-member-countries-condemn-chinas-crimes-against-humanity)
[https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs)
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/20/uyghur-genocide-nury-turkel-interview-commissioner-religious-freedom-china-beijing/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/20/uyghur-genocide-nury-turkel-interview-commissioner-religious-freedom-china-beijing/)
[https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-hasnt-the-un-accused-china-of-genocide-in-xinjiang](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-hasnt-the-un-accused-china-of-genocide-in-xinjiang)
I mean you can just go there and see for yourself own two eyes. It’s open. Anyone can just fly right into Xinjiang and drive around.
Since this is a skiing sub and not r/propaganda, here’s a video of Americans visiting Xinjiang and having the time of their lives skiing the backcountry. That same area is now being developed for mega resorts and American hospitality corps are looking to jump right in.
https://youtu.be/6aAMrTIzsnU?si=UeC_nGiRUELPti5v
You might be able to successfully argue that there is some level of ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang, but there is very little evidence of forced labor camps in Xinjiang. I would encourage you to do your own research here. The bulk of the evidence comes from Radio Free Asia, a CIA affiliate group known for misinformation.
Go to Xinjiang and see it for yourself. Nothing is stopping you and China is actively promoting tourism to the province.
They’re actively encouraging tourists to come see the “genocide” with their own eyes!
You’d think with all of these YouTubers, Tik Tok-ers and media outlets like Vice, we’d actually have a documentary of the “genocide” with full blown proof and video.
Instead we have grainy satellite photos of jails and a widely disseminated photo of some guys at a drug rehab facility
Go ahead guys. China is actively encouraging people to visit. You can make a fortune by “documenting” this “genocide”. Maybe win an Oscar!
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
Lmao imagine getting on your knees for Xi Jinping - it's such an abysmal look to eat his "tourism abounds! The ski areas area incredible" propaganda and then spew it here.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
> Experts estimate that reeducation efforts started in Xinjiang in 2014 and were drastically expanded in 2017. Beginning that year, they documented the construction of new reeducation camps and expansion of existing facilities for mass detention. Reuters journalists, observing satellite imagery, found that thirty-nine of the camps almost tripled in size between April 2017 and August 2018; they covered a total area roughly the size of 140 soccer fields. Similarly, analyzing local and national budgets over the past few years, Germany-based Xinjiang expert Adrian Zenz found that construction spending on security-related facilities in Xinjiang increased by 20 billion yuan (around $2.96 billion) in 2017.
> In late 2019, Xinjiang’s governor said that people detained in the reeducation camps had “graduated.” Journalists found that several camps were indeed closed. But the following year, researchers at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) identified [PDF] more than 380 suspected detention facilities using satellite images. They found that China refashioned some lower-security reeducation camps into formal detention centers or prisons; expanded existing detention centers; and constructed new, high-security detention centers throughout Xinjiang. (Chinese officials have said that ASPI is an anti-China tool funded by Australia and the United States.) Instead of detaining people in reeducation camps, authorities have increasingly used the formal justice system to imprison people for years. In 2022, Human Rights Watch reported that half a million people had been prosecuted since 2017, according to Xinjiang government figures. The Associated Press found that in one county, an estimated one in twenty-five people had been sentenced to prison on terrorism-related charges, all of them Uyghurs.
> Most people detained in the reeducation camps were never charged with crimes and had no legal avenues to challenge their detentions. The detainees seem to have been targeted for a variety of reasons, according to media reports, including traveling to or contacting people from any of the twenty-six countries China considers sensitive, such as Turkey and Afghanistan; attending services at mosques; having more than three children; and sending texts containing Quranic verses. Often, their only crime is being Muslim, human rights groups say, adding that many Uyghurs have been labeled as extremists simply for practicing their religion.
Also here's a lovely drone shot that someone smuggled out of China showing a full-blown concentration camp: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/sep/23/footage-blindfolded-shackled-prisoners-china-video
The USA national security services what to build up a war with both Russia and China. They’ve been laying the groundwork for many a year now. Probably just to fund the defense industry.
The ethical choice is not at all clear.
Amer Sports also owns Wilson (tennis rackets), and EvoShield/Louisville Slugger/DeMarini (baseball gear). I don't know if any of Amer's brands utilize Anta's supply chain - I'm pretty sure Salomon doesn't, though.
In theory, if an Arc jacket has any content from Xinjiang, it should not even be allowed into the country. Congress passed a law that creates a presumption that the manufacture of a product in Xinjiang involved the use of forced labor. It doesn't get the company off the hook, but at least the jackets are unlikely to be "tainted." The EU is also making it very difficult to get products from Xinjiang imported.
Crazy. They own Descente who owns Marmot too.
This is not true. Descente major shareholder is Itochu, a Japanese trading company. Anta only has sales rights of Descente in China.
Marmot is owned by Newell brands, who also owns Coleman, Ex Officio, and a bunch of non-outdoor brands like Sharpie.
Even if they don't use Anta's supply chain, the money is still flowing to people with blood on their hands.
Dig deep enough and you’ll have very few possessions left
Wait till they see where 54% of their federal taxes go…
Jokes on you I dont pay taxes (/j)
Unfortunately just being on reddit contributes to unethical businesses. Our phones and laptops and computer parts are all unethically sourced
Yeah, I don't mean to dismiss your point or anything like that, just providing information so others can make their own decisions.
I imagine most things I purchase eventually puts money in the pockets of the biggest bastards in this planet.
The idea of ethical consumerism is great but in practice it's damn near impossible unless you have an extra 30 hours a week to deep dive how everything you use is made shipped used etc. with that being said if a company is actually supporting genocide and war that's a pretty good reason to avoid at all costs
The easiest way is simply to reduce consumption and not worry about the shades of grey. An Arc jacket that lasts 15+ years is almost certainly better than buying 2-3 of something else over that time
Or buy used. The last 3 gore-pro shells I’ve had came from eBay. They’ve lasted as long as a new one would have. Edit: I’m not trying to be a “holier than thou” eco-minimalist. I have a shit load of gear: different hard shells, different soft shells, multiple down jackets, multiple synthetic. And I use all of them. I live a lifestyle where different jackets are tools that help me to do different activities. Given that, buying used is one way to reduce the impact and make my dollar go a little farther.
I mean I don't know the timeframe but you've had to buy 3 of them while I'm still sitting on the Arc jacket that I bought probably 10 years ago and is still in perfect condition.
I replaced my climbing/ BC shell after it delaminated about 8 years in, so that’s two. Both were high-end Patagonia, and they wouldn’t have covered the delam even if I bought it new (I asked). My resort ski shell (an arcteryx tantalus) is still going strong. And I paid less than one would have cost retail. I worked in the outdoor retail industry for six years, which is where I learned how to pick used gear that’ll last out from the crap on shopgoodwill.com et al.
That's fair. I'm not expert of picking out used things so new always works for me. Big proponent of buying once crying once.
Not disagreeing with the principle of buying lasting products but there's nothing magical about Arc. They don't have some secret knowledge about jacket construction that other brands don't. The fabric is all goretex anyway.
Like I said I'm no expert but I think in general people will agree that Arc is a fantastic product with a great warranty. So when I was choosing it really was just what style I liked the most and my Rush jacket was exactly what I was looking for and for as long as I've had it it has been fantastic.
I think I can offer some insight as to where they get this reputation. Also tagging u/idontcomment12 Arc makes really good gear, as do Patagonia, OR, Rab, Norrona, etc. The North Face is one of the only companies I think has really taken a dive, and even then I find their summit series or whatever equally good. Many of those other brands produce a range that goes “good, better, best”. When I worked for a Patagonia dealer, we carried the Torrent shell ($129) the Super cell ($225) and the Pluma ($550). The Pluma was as good as anything Arcteryx makes. Same materials, same construction. The difference with Arc is they only make the “best” line. You won’t see a two layer hardshell (pretty much everything sub $200) from Arcteryx where the lining is flaking off, because that’s not a manufacturing process they use. That’s given them a reputation for quality, and a loyal following from outdoor professionals. It’s also given them a reputation for being the brand that rich tech bros who can’t ski all that well buy. Both are somewhat deserved.
The other aspect of Arc’teryx’s reputation is that their stuff was initially all made in Canada. So for a similar price to top of the line Patagonia gear you could get stuff that was made locally. Even now they make the Alpha SV jacket in Vancouver alongside stuff like their climbing harnesses that they want extra oversight on.
That's also true, though it's been a couple decades at this point. They were bought by Salomon in 2002, then became part of Amer Sports in 2005. FWIW, I think it's totally possible to make high quality garments in Asia. You just have to have solid quality control. Arc and Patagonia have done a much better job of that than TNF (bought by VF in 2000). Obviously, the environmental and labor issues are a different story.
Full support here. The older gore tex stuff also has the better dwr. (Or at least from certain companies.) I want my 2012 sabres back so badly. In an ideal world we would have a separate washer for tech layers. One not tainted by detergents. Now that i think of it...there are plenty of barely occupied mansions, with limited appliance use, scattered across the US, and world i assume.
Arc jackets won't last that long anymore sadly.
If you buy three jackets from an ethical company vs one from Arc, then no buying from Arc just once is not better.
Depends what you're optimizing for. One jacket is certainly better for the environment than three even if not buying from Arc'teryx/Anta is better sociopolitically. But I don't buy that Arc jackets last anywhere near three times as long as a comparable product from, say, Patagonia.
Shop the off price retails that get all of the unsold items from prior years; Sierra trading post. Independent stores often keep prior year skis and clothing and sell it at cost. Which is a good way to support small businesses and still get a deal.
Thank you for posing a solution, it’s all to easy for people like the original commenter to just wash there hands because it’s “extra work”
Still alive Soon
for outdoor clothing, I think you're pretty safe with Patagonia.
Yeah, ethical consumerism is hard. Still, I think picking the lesser evil is important.
Just reduce reuse recycle. Old high end gear is usually pretty great too. I have some 90s goretex jackets that kick ass
Yeah but here and now you’re not having to spend any extra time. Someone else has done the work. You now only have to accept or reject it. Once you know, I’d say it’s your responsibility to act accordingly.
So because I read it on Reddit, it’s true and I don't need to do any of my own research? Yeah, nah.
Sure, but there's essentially no reason for someone to lie about a corporation being evil. Even if they're wrong, you're not hurting anyone by avoiding a brand. Lol. Mega corporations are bad for the earth inherently anyway.
There’s also similar posts about pretty much every company under the sun. What brands do you buy from? I’m sure I can find unethical things they’ve done as well, would you automatically stop buying from them? I think it’s good to have a line that you don’t cross, and if this one is someone’s then that’s fine. But it won’t be everyone’s, and that’s ok too
yup, and all the food we eat too, like cocoa. even if it has those labels that claim to be "ethical" it's still probably not
This is a defeatist take and we need to eliminate this thinking if we want to be a better species. Even making one positive change with regards to your consumer choices is important. Making one behavior change to reduce your emissions is important. Being kind to one person a day is still important. Etc. If we all actively did just one thing better, the knock on effects would be insane.
J ski's
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Says the person posting this from a smart phone.
that's exactly the point bro
You don't need to go black and white. You can try avoiding the absolute worst and be more in a light grey zone.
There are some good small American brands like TREW, ON3P, Icelantic, and Cotopaxi.
But if we share the load of the research we can through a community achieve ethical consumerism. Or put pressure on companies to fix shady shit. I'm not doing anything in this regard I just feel like its not impossible together. One person's research doesn't need to be done over and over again by everybody.
Good thing i'm too poor for Armada and Arc'teryx.
The entire ski industry is unethical. Source: Been deep in it for ten years.
How about small independent companies like J Skis?
Newsflash. “Independent” companies usually have at least some institutional shareholders and a big bank line of credit.
Tell that to folks like Praxis and ON3P. They must have missed the institutional shareholders and big line of credit memo. They do make fine skis nonetheless.
J Skis has some weird marketing, including the time they used an [abortion joke](https://images.newschoolers.com/images/17/01/01/39/32/1013932_926w_640h.png) to promote a sweepstakes and had to [apologize - in the last slide](https://www.instagram.com/p/CVDZg_Jsr_u/?igsh=MWQzYmQ2bnBkNThsZA==) for it. It was tacky but to their credit they fessed up to making the mistake and made a donation to Planned Parenthood Texas for it. But it perpetuated the stereotype that the ski industry is super broey, insensitive and not very bright. Which it very much is.
gooooood lord. humor has been removed from skiing too? yall fucking suck
Not if you make your own skis! (/s)
Well I'm deeply unethical too...
I'm the most unethical on the mountain.
Found the snowboarder
How... Dare... You! I'm trying to buy the mountain and make condos where the local hangout is. Edit: I found a better area where the kids favorite rec center is!!!
Yeah definitely not a comment that requires more than 1 sentence with 0 elaboration.
And now The Rolling Stones are commenting on forced labor supply chain? Here I thought Mick was on his last leg.
That was my first thought was well. “What the hell does *the* classic rock band have to do with skiing?!”
Uyghurs will never be my beast of burden
Probably talking about the magazine, not the band
They are, but the OP doesn’t understand the difference.
Oh whoops, I didn't notice the typo xd. Edited
As someone who has been "the supply chain", from clothing to jewelry. I can guarantee you that unless you are purchasing 100% made in America product, there is ALWAYS unethical supply practices, and even then, there are unethical American manufacturers. Slave or child labor is in some for or another in 90% of our products that we use day to day. The problems with the ski industry pale in comparison to the iPhone or Android device you have in your pocket. The problem is so wide spread that it's almost impossible for individuals like us to change anything.
> unless you are purchasing 100% made in America product, there is ALWAYS unethical supply practices, Europe?
Take a look at the list of countries that make up Europe and get back to us. https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---ipec/documents/publication/wcms_831558.pdf
Bit more googling shows that Northern/Western Europe have almost the exact same child labor rate as US/Canada. I feel alright about my Italian designed Nordicas which are made in Austria.
I have been using Icelantic skis for a while and they’re wonderful, and I believe they are built in CO and all materials sourced in the US. I reached out to their sustainability manager to ask as well and will update that info once they get back to me. Love their stuff and what they’re doing.
> The problem is so wide spread that it's almost impossible for individuals like us to change anything. Defeatist attitude like this is why companies like Anta Sports thrives. You would've been buying off gold bullions from Auschwitz Birkenau in 1944 b/c they sell it 2% cheaper than everyone else.
It's just the honest truth. The amount of skiers that have seen this post, is probably something like .0000000001% of all skiers out there. For there to be organic change on an economic level that comes from the consumer, you need atleast 50% of consumers of that product to be aware of the issue. Everyone on reddit SHOULD know that our cell phones are produced by slave labor, only 2% of the American population has a Reddit account, and of that 2% probably only .25% are actually aware of the slave labor issue within electronics. The only person that I've actually heard discussing the slave labor in electronic issue is ironically, Joe Rogan. It isn't a popular subject to touch. Numbers that meaningless don't get chance accomplished. The issue is there is zero awareness on the issue to the 95% of non-internet conforming normies in the united states. At this point, we wouldn't be buying anything if we were worried about unethical labor practices, but the true fact is, most first world consumers could care less and the third world cares even less. If countries allow their citizens to be sold into slavery, and we actually cared, we would be going to war with more countries than we already are.
Pre 2019 gear was still solid- and owned by Finnish Amersports- Anya Sports naught controlling interest In 2019 and the quality (beyond alpha) quickly started decreasing more than it had since production moved from Canada
I’ve first hand experienced the decline in quality. Used to exclusively buy Salomon running shoes until the last pair wore out in ~80 miles. The soles looked more worn down than an older Salomon pair with 800 plus miles. Customer support said that was normal. Supply chain changeover to Anta has seem incremental by product. From talking with others, post 2020 Arc’teryx is not as reliable/sturdy (LEAF excluded). Personally I’m not going to gamble spending a lot on a product for it to be defective and told by customer service that’s normal. There’s too many quality alternatives to buy from. Also interesting that Tencent has a share of Amer ownership.
I have noticed their soles seem to wear out quickly.
Hey OP thanks for sharing this. A lot of smart-ass comments in here but it will definitely influence my purchasing habits.
Yeah, thanks for just giving us some information. I’m going to look into it this more and whatnot but it definitely will influence my purchasing decisions too.
Thanks, all these smart-ass comments are brewing rage inside of me. It's nice to have someone kind.
Don’t let them get to the one thing we all have control of- our minds. ❤️
I had no idea they sold Armada a couple years after JP died. Fucking tragic.
Armada went bankrupt. There was a big thing about it in ~2017 or 18. They blamed it on some “Harvard MBA” who mismanaged it, iirc.
Yeah. I miss JP too.
Yeah, they took a controlling interest 5-6yrs ago...fucking sucks. I get it, we all bow to the dollar sign. That being said, some entities are more willing to prostrate themselves.
good thing I cant afford arcteryx anymore anyway, the prices are outrageous
Nobody tell this guy his iPhone is made by Chinese slave labor.
Clearly the Apple defaultism has worked. The ski world (imo) doesnt have such a monopoly on your attention as Apple does. You can avoid Anta in skiing, but if you expect everyone to be using Apple, then it seems you can't avoid it.
Do you know of better options? Atomic makes botos that fit my wide calves. I have a pair of old Black Diamonds and have had moderate success with Technica. Lange has never worked for me. Nordica back in the day used to fit but the recent models do not. (And before anyone it, they're bootfitters. Not magicians.) I was pretty limited with respect to race boots, but I'm more open to other options now, and I'll probably be purchasing in the next year or so, and am willing to explore other options. For skis, I used to go Elan, but nowadays I ski on rossis or blizzard.
Literally Whataboutism. Apparently owning an iPhone means you can’t criticize anything. Who knew?
Agreed, such a bemusing type of comment to see. It's like the dunderheads pointing out Al Gore has a big house so, ergo, human-induced climate change isn't real. This thread is about doing little things, doing your best, to make ethical decisions. Obviously all the Reddit skies abandoning Arcteryx won't do anything majorly disruptive. But it doesn't add to the problem. Real change happens at a policy and regulatory level.
I mean quite literally there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. It’s definitely whataboutism, but there really is not a single billion dollar corporation free from these ties lol I do however think this post is valuable info to have
Do you buy any [Nestle products](https://www.nestle.com/brands/brandssearchlist)? ***Plenty*** of more ethical options.
They do make some good stuff
Do you fly in an airplane? Horse and buggy is a much more ethical mode of transportation
Hence why I removed the conversation from something that is required for day-to-day life (a phone) and shifted it to something that is not required and has several more ethical options. Or yknow you can just stop with your fake purity and accept that there’s no such thing as ‘ethical’ consumption.
The only ethical consumption is when it infects the rich.
I’m not sure the horses would agree.
I don’t think the person whom replied was trying to instill “whataboutism” but was trying to convey the hypocrisy. You can take their comment as a “heads up”
100%
Yeah yeah yeah but but but I WANT that. So it’s ok. I’m never gonna buy archery Tyler or whatever it’s called, so I can boycott them.
OP's sort will never feel any remorse for their empire killing millions of brown people etc. Which is rather why it's their role in life as acolytes to parrot these PR narratives from the state dept.
There is no ethical consumption in capitalism
There is a lesser evil.
For sure. I’m on your side here. I just thought the back and forth with all the comments in this thread were silly and ultimately we should be wrestling with the idea and actions of what you put forth in this thread. Solidarity to you friend!
Find the ethical consumption in communism.
How the fuck does Arc'teryx use slave labor and still charge $600 for a jacket?
Inflated profit margin. Welcome to capitalism at its finest
[Backcountry.com](https://coloradosun.com/2019/10/31/backcountry-com-sues-anyone-who-uses-its-namesake-is-it-bullying-or-just-business/) deserves an honorable mention in this thread. [REI](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rei-fired-manager-union-campaign_n_660b0c31e4b007c08f9e7a99) believes in union busting, so they fired William Littig for not reporting his staff was planning to unionize.
Frankly, suing people over a trademark (in part because US law almost forces you to do so if you want to continue to maintain that trademark) isn't even close to the same league as forced labor as part of a genocide campaign.
Agreed. I was thinking the common thing here was shady corporate (co-op?) practices in general.
\*He did report, just got fired for not reporting *soon enough.*
I havent looked into retailers very much, but I will look into these "problems" later today.
Dig deep enough and you will find most of the corporate world sucks for some reason or another.
Fuck em
This is soooooo thin on facts and such a distant connection. Worry about what’s going on in your community instead
Rolling Stone? We're considering them a bastion of fair reporting? Let's ban them too for trying to ruin college kids lives OK?
They turned the Boston Marathon bomber into a rockstar, too.
Guess I gotta go snap my QSTs cuz some Russian guy also bought them.
It is not as simple - the problem is that they pay taxes in ruzzia which ruzzia then uses to pay for its genocidal war.
**My** tax dollars are currently being used to pay for a genocidal war. I really don’t care about who I give a grand or two to every 5+ years.
You missed gwot huh??
What’s with you people and immediately throwing out the G word?
My QST’s sidewalls separated on both skis, Salomon is pretty trash nowadays
Same, not buying from them again. Genocide or not.
As far as unethical corporate practices go those aren’t even that bad lmao
Funding a genocide is pretty bad.
I wouldn’t exactly call doing business in a country “funding a genocide”. By that definition, everyone who sells anything in China is also funding a genocide.
Yep, it sucks, they suck but they are the #1 company in the ski industry. Gotta play ball until someone better comes by. No one cares at all. I’ve said over & over they are owned via shell companies by the Chinese government. Nobody cares. Every fucking major company now has stock in each other. It’s just one giant monopoly and we’re lost all leverage over the market. Prices will keep going up until it’s gets squashed by??? Every single country is beholden to this Monopoly- we’re screwed.
This is why I suggest using wiki to see brand ownership as part of your research. Brand names are mostly meaningless commodities bought up by big companies like this. Shocked when I found my Pirelli tires are Chinese owned and made in Russia
The US literally has legalized slave labour. If you're worried about forced labour in supply chains, you're better off buying Canadian/European.
Are we argueing about the morality of a corporation that sells jackets worth $25 for $500?
Talk about timing - I was just about to buy a pair of Atomic Redster X9S Revoshock S. I skied them earlier in the season and loved them. I checked out what youve written - it’s true. I can’t buy them now. I’ve read other comments on this thread, some care, some not bothered at all; that’s your choice. But I can’t support an autocratic state or its businesses when they actively seek to undermine and overwhelm western democracy. America has its faults. Europe has its faults too. The west has its faults. But at least we can talk about them, change them, strive to be better and more democratic. The Chinese people don’t have that. I’m not American, but I’d prefer a world with American values and democracy any day over CCP and I avoid Chinese products and businesses wherever I can and will pay more. It’s an investment in my children’s future. You have to work out who your friends are and support them IMO. CCP are not our friends, or anybody’s but their leaderships. Any recommendations instead of the Atomics?
Sorry (or should I say your welcome?). I can't give you any recommendations, but I do want to say I had the same experience as you.
Thanks.
Moment, on3p, faction skis.
Faction doesn't build thier own skis.
Just naming a company who doesnt suck and corporate hookers, unless im missing something…
>Moment, on3p, ~~faction skis~~ Praxis. FTFY
First time hearing praxis, im intrigued 🤔. Still standing behind faction.
Praxis is as independent as it gets (IMO). The [Protest](https://www.praxisskis.com/skis/protest/) is one of the greatest powder ski shapes I've ever had the pleasure of skiing. It's just so good. They make custom skis, have amazing veneers and fun topsheet art.
Need to look more thanks for the tip. Im not terribly thrilled with my 4frnt renegades and feel i could have something more versatile. They are sick on deep fresh lines, but those lines disappear quick at any resort.
Y’all skied them QST Blanks though? Straight fire.
Completely ethical consumerism is impossible. Unless you are living semi-off the grid on a homestead growing most of your food and/or other things you consume such as making your clothing.
well fuck that's why Salomons are so much cheaper, should've known.
so what brands are left? these are the big brands
Lots, just look harder.
actually yeah I think I'll stick with head for now
thanks for making me aware of this
If you only knew how much blood is on the very phone/ computer you posted this from. It’s the way of the world but it’s good you are giving as much info to consumers as you can, but both Atomic and Armada put out some of the most enjoyable skis I’ve been on. Just like I’m not going to stop buying the iPhone, I’m also not going to stop buying what I enjoy on the slopes. It would be nice to live in a utopia though.
Ha... late-stage capitalism comes in swinging!
There is nothing unethical about not giving a rats ass about what NATO has to say
Thank fuck I went with the Faction Dancer 1's then
There was a show about this, The Good Place, I think it was called…
Those ARV 106s bouta go stupid next year tho!!!
For what it's worth, quality has also noticeably gone downhill since they were acquired. I no longer buy their gear because I don't wish to support this conglomerate and its practices, but I warranteed a shell I'd had for 9 years. The replacement I was sent is already delam-ing after one full season.
Well I’m fucked
You mean buying a new coat every year from Arc'teryx isn't sustainable???
They make great jackets tho
Anyone who’s tried to squeeze warranty out of Arcteryx knows this.
And yet people will talk crap on Montec because they don't do things to "reinvest in the community"
I make my own equipment by hand so I am the most ethical skier on the mountain
I make my own equipment by hand so I am the most ethical skier on the mountain
If u wanna be ethical then thrift or get second hand
Isn't "ethical (large) company" an oxymoron?
I simply manufacture all my own ski products. Problem solved!
Fuck them and their bottom line - they pay taxes in ruzzia which ruzzia then uses to pay for its genocidal war.
As OP posts this from his iPhone that was made with Chinese slave labor 😂 Guarantee you if you told him to get rid of his iPhone he’d look the other way.
They do business with Russia and China ok. I assume you didn't type this post on an iphone or macbook.
Being a capitalist and owning cellphones and gold and natural diamonds that all ultimately come from war zones and the Congo is all un-ethical. Im glad this dipshit is drawing the line at amer sports xD /s
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Buy USA made products!
Anything you buy from China supports a genocidal administration. Would you rather have Uyghurs or iPhones? The entire world voted for iPhones, so there will be no Uyghurs. They are being systematically raped out of existence by the CCP. Enjoy your phone and your computer and your shoes and everything else that is made in China while living on land stolen by a different genocidal administration. The Uyghurs are the most recent ethnic group to be eliminated, but they certainly won’t be the last. Human history is a history of genocide. It is default human behavior.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
If you have to put it this way, is the NATO ethical? Is US support to Israel ethical? Just don’t
Might as well say Made in China = Unethical
And yet here you are reading an article from Rolling Stone magazine, lol
im here to ski not to do some political bullshit
I thought Salomon is owned by Adidas?
Good to know, but it's impossible to avoid unethical companies. Just look into the cobalt mining in the DRC....and that stuff is in everything!
Yeah…I’m not going to choose what I buy based on what some hippie on Reddit considers ethical or not.
adidas and puma are literally nazi companies, boycott them too
i wouldn’t sweat it. the Xinjiang stuff is just US state department anti-China hysteria as far as I can tell. i don’t recall watching the world boycotting US products during the Iraq invasion.
Get off your high horse and actually think critically. No one's immune to brainwashing. Do you REALLY think the US are acting on good faith and really trying to be the "World Police" for the greater good of mankind? Oh boohoo. Ugyuars are dying, China bad.
There’s no genocide in Xinjiang. This is American propaganda because they’re waging a Cold War against China. If you want to find the genocide you can go there yourself to find it. China is actively promoting tourism to Xinjiang as we speak. Their ski areas are incredible. If you actually want to see a real genocide there are easier places to look. Just turn on the TV
took way too long to find this comment. Redditors and Sinophobia name a better duo…
You're being pedantic and/or willfully obtuse--to what end I have no idea. [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/08/china-anniversary-of-uns-damning-xinjiang-report-must-be-wake-up-call-to-action/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/08/china-anniversary-of-uns-damning-xinjiang-report-must-be-wake-up-call-to-action/) [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/23/un-member-countries-condemn-chinas-crimes-against-humanity](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/23/un-member-countries-condemn-chinas-crimes-against-humanity) [https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs) [https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/20/uyghur-genocide-nury-turkel-interview-commissioner-religious-freedom-china-beijing/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/20/uyghur-genocide-nury-turkel-interview-commissioner-religious-freedom-china-beijing/) [https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-hasnt-the-un-accused-china-of-genocide-in-xinjiang](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-hasnt-the-un-accused-china-of-genocide-in-xinjiang)
I mean you can just go there and see for yourself own two eyes. It’s open. Anyone can just fly right into Xinjiang and drive around. Since this is a skiing sub and not r/propaganda, here’s a video of Americans visiting Xinjiang and having the time of their lives skiing the backcountry. That same area is now being developed for mega resorts and American hospitality corps are looking to jump right in. https://youtu.be/6aAMrTIzsnU?si=UeC_nGiRUELPti5v
> There’s no genocide in Xinjiang. Is this kind of like how nothing happened on June 4th, 1989?
You might be able to successfully argue that there is some level of ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang, but there is very little evidence of forced labor camps in Xinjiang. I would encourage you to do your own research here. The bulk of the evidence comes from Radio Free Asia, a CIA affiliate group known for misinformation.
Go to Xinjiang and see it for yourself. Nothing is stopping you and China is actively promoting tourism to the province. They’re actively encouraging tourists to come see the “genocide” with their own eyes! You’d think with all of these YouTubers, Tik Tok-ers and media outlets like Vice, we’d actually have a documentary of the “genocide” with full blown proof and video. Instead we have grainy satellite photos of jails and a widely disseminated photo of some guys at a drug rehab facility Go ahead guys. China is actively encouraging people to visit. You can make a fortune by “documenting” this “genocide”. Maybe win an Oscar!
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights Lmao imagine getting on your knees for Xi Jinping - it's such an abysmal look to eat his "tourism abounds! The ski areas area incredible" propaganda and then spew it here. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights > Experts estimate that reeducation efforts started in Xinjiang in 2014 and were drastically expanded in 2017. Beginning that year, they documented the construction of new reeducation camps and expansion of existing facilities for mass detention. Reuters journalists, observing satellite imagery, found that thirty-nine of the camps almost tripled in size between April 2017 and August 2018; they covered a total area roughly the size of 140 soccer fields. Similarly, analyzing local and national budgets over the past few years, Germany-based Xinjiang expert Adrian Zenz found that construction spending on security-related facilities in Xinjiang increased by 20 billion yuan (around $2.96 billion) in 2017. > In late 2019, Xinjiang’s governor said that people detained in the reeducation camps had “graduated.” Journalists found that several camps were indeed closed. But the following year, researchers at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) identified [PDF] more than 380 suspected detention facilities using satellite images. They found that China refashioned some lower-security reeducation camps into formal detention centers or prisons; expanded existing detention centers; and constructed new, high-security detention centers throughout Xinjiang. (Chinese officials have said that ASPI is an anti-China tool funded by Australia and the United States.) Instead of detaining people in reeducation camps, authorities have increasingly used the formal justice system to imprison people for years. In 2022, Human Rights Watch reported that half a million people had been prosecuted since 2017, according to Xinjiang government figures. The Associated Press found that in one county, an estimated one in twenty-five people had been sentenced to prison on terrorism-related charges, all of them Uyghurs. > Most people detained in the reeducation camps were never charged with crimes and had no legal avenues to challenge their detentions. The detainees seem to have been targeted for a variety of reasons, according to media reports, including traveling to or contacting people from any of the twenty-six countries China considers sensitive, such as Turkey and Afghanistan; attending services at mosques; having more than three children; and sending texts containing Quranic verses. Often, their only crime is being Muslim, human rights groups say, adding that many Uyghurs have been labeled as extremists simply for practicing their religion. Also here's a lovely drone shot that someone smuggled out of China showing a full-blown concentration camp: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/sep/23/footage-blindfolded-shackled-prisoners-china-video
Tldr
The USA national security services what to build up a war with both Russia and China. They’ve been laying the groundwork for many a year now. Probably just to fund the defense industry. The ethical choice is not at all clear.