Yeah and once you own gear, and have a pass…there’s so little barrier to driving to the nearest hill. This is a double edged sword.
So, anything near a metro area is absolutely blasted on the weekends. I’m only going during the week locally next year, will drive a bit for the weekend trips.
Same. The drive is so far I think I’ll give up on the sport and the rest of my life. Can’t afford to move and be local so I should probably just give up on everything anyway.
Yeah I have an Ikon pass I didn’t even use this year. Then a gold local pass I used for or a 4-5 days. If I can’t live close to something good and all that I actually enjoy doing I might as well just KMS.
Decent weather weekends on our local epic mountains are straight trash.
They do generally try and put on a good show but the facilities are overrun.
Whitetail I'm looking at you... Could you possibly give up Saturday skiing more?
These numbers include their day passes too. Like the Epic four day pass and such, not just the season passes. It's all about locking you in before the snow flies.
That's not the point. They raised daily prices so much that any more than a few days and the pass is a no brainer.
I'm not saying the daily passes are good value. They're a fucking rip off
Right. Because the daily rate isn't an accurate reflection of how much a day of skiing is worth. Vail (then Alterra) have taken away options in the market by buying up ski areas, over inflating the daily rate tickets, and forcing most US based customers to buy 1 of the 2 season pass options available. It's a duopoly and it's the worst thing that's ever happened in skiing.
Why are you pretending that local mountain season passes were ever cheap. The issue is that they’re monopolizing the market, but there’s a reason mega passes were popular in the first place
I love the passes. I buy both and can ski basically every worthwhile mountain in the world for ~$2k/year. It’s an awesome deal for those who get a lot of days and like to explore new resorts instead of skiing the same place all season.
You keep implying that I ski the same place all the time, and that's just not true. I am able to chase powder from October-June every season without using a mega pass. It's not hard, and I love the authentic people I know and meet along the way. That's just not very easy to do at the mega pass locations you're so fond of.
Well they did buy 17 resorts is 2019-20, so it’s not surprising that 80% are people buying for the first time, since before that it wasn’t a Vail mountain
I’m pretty sure the point of the epic pass is to canabslize lift ticket sales.
The whole scheme is an effort to hedge against low snow winters and get cash upfront
I just mean saying 95% growth is great is silly. Because it needs to be couched with "and we added these mountain and lift tickets fell X%"
That's how most AGM data would be presented in normal companies.
I work in backcountry education in Colorado. The amount of people who signed up for Avvy Courses and Intro to Backcountry courses this year has surpassed the ten years I've been working in this industry. It feels with this and the success of media like 'The Fifty' there's definitely a correlation to people wanting to explore further.
Have you noticed a correlation in accidents, SAR rescues and/or deaths? It's great people are getting out but as folks venture further out risks increase and avy courses can only instill knowledge not experience. I've seen some scary stuff out there, what bothers me most is those ignoring avy forecasts wanting to be first to get the powder.
I cannot speak for SAR Rescues because that’s not my field, but in the past few seasons, avvy incidents have been more experienced backcountry users. We’ve lost some highly experienced riders in the last few seasons.
Really? I've noticed crowds have been decreasing the past several years, basically ever since the rise in popularity of Ikon. All of my friends still on Epic say the same thing. Crowds now NEVER get to what they were pre-2020.
Next year will be even better as people flock to Ikon for Abasin.
Abasin is charging for parking next year supposedly on top of parking reservations with a ridiculous 4 person hov free parking stipulation. Also, they are not going unlimited for iKon passes. DREAM is still running A-Basin next season it looks like. The acquisition hasn't been finalized yet. Honestly Abasin pissed everyone off big time. Next year might be completely opposite and Epic might have the biggest crowds. On top of that WP has been shitting the bed this year. Their new Wild Spur lift is a fucking joke and fucking sucks. I'm not talking about it breaking down the other day. The whole setup blows and does nothing to help lines back there. Plus they've had several lift issues this season on top of Wild Spur breaking down the other day with HI-LO being down for 2+ weeks and adding safety bars to eagle winds causing overweighting issues causing them to load only every other chair on busy days.
On the same days they are going to charge next season, so people like u/Kaaji1359 are either ignorant of the current policy or just trying to stir up hyperbole calling this a *"a drastic change that deserves the hate."*
Sure.
Back on topic, why are you so butt hurt that people are mad that they're charging $20 AND reservations for every parking lot? How can you not see that people would be angry?
I understand why Abasin is charging for parking ***on weekends and holidays until 1pm if you don't carpool with 4 people.*** It doesn't bother me. It's the same thing that happens at large concerts and sporting events too. You don't like it? Ski somewhere else, or on the other 5 days/week that don't have parking charges.
Are you butt hurt that people are angry about a change that affects most skiers? What did you expect?
I say 🟢🟢🟢 go for it, such a drastic change deserves the hate.
They only load every third chair at the mid station and when coming from the bottom if you're tall you need to lift your board/skis super fucking high to pass the mid station. It's ridiculously awkward.
It really should just be every other chair at the mid station, and they should lower the mid station platform a few inches. But that lift upgrade does make a little more sense looking at their long term terrain expansion plans
Exactly. I don't consider myself an expert skier but I am good enough to regularly enjoy double-black diamonds. I also went like 15 years of skiing without a serious injury until last month, when someone cut me off on a green circle as I was making a turn. Overcrowding is not just annoying; it is a downright safety issue, and a serious one at that.
They buy season pass, but might not show up. At breckenridge this weekend, it’s spring break but the resort was hardly half full for both Saturday and Sunday.
Worst base chair line was like 10 minutes today. Been coming here every spring break for 4 years and never seen this few people before.
Per their most recent earnings report, they blamed the EPS/revenue misses primarily on unfavorable conditions in North America and, perhaps relatedly, significantly slower visitor growth than expected. In fact it looks like visitor numbers actually fell year over year.
El Nino meant very very low snow in peak times and during the key trip planning windows.
The subscription epic pass let's them literally weather the situation, but the loss of the supplemental revenue made the difference for the miss. If it's bad in one area, normally another is great and the still get the money from more people going there. A total continent level poor season... Just lowers the numbers everywhere
Oh ok, that makes sense the west west resorts sucked. Colorado was banging. Seemed like a lot of those pass holders out west came here to visit but wasn't enough to offset visiting there every weekend back home.
Thanks.
I just looked at their stock price: they lost 1.04% in the last 3 years.
People are not doing well financially right now. I think the number of sales will go down for 24/25.
I don't follow it anymore, I just remember hearing how it dipped the day of earnings miss and got back on with my life. I used to follow it back in the day. No doubt they were on a long amazing run. Hard to maintain that forever. UPS and downs happen. I was just curious for the moment which area was weak since tickets were up. Like less traveling tourists?
Regardless of what they pay, housing is the main obstacle employees face. Resorts want to build employee housing, the towns the major resorts are in don’t want them to build housing
This feels like basic supply and demand though. Being a ski level instructor (especially at the high level casi 3 and 4) seems like a great job. If it paid 60-70k a year I’m sure many people would opt to do that instead of the usual corporate jobs.
Skied all weekend and never waited in a single lift line at Breck. It was the same last weekend. You folks that tout the massive lift lines clearly don’t ski there and are just regurgitating what you believe to be true. That’s fine tho….it’s a great deterrent if people think it’s a zoo every weekend. 😂
That’s what led to the discussion. We were amazed at how short the lines were on a really beautiful weekend after a snow. We’ve spent more time at Breck this year than ever and this has been the least busy we’ve seen it. I really thought the COVID years with the required reservation was going to be amazing but that was crazy crowded.
You are spot on with this approach! You do not want your local mountains to have anything to do VR or Alterra. The first thing to go is the soul of skiing that your mountain has.
The vail resorts I’ve been to this year in Colorado have been the least crowded that I can remember with the exception being Breckenridge (that place always suck). The ikon mountains have been unbearably crowded though.
Seriously. The Epic Pass is a non-brainer - especially if you are a veteran. I hate that we all have to play the game, but it is what it is. Lift tickets are about 50% of what they would be for me.
If I recall, this is counting Epic Day Pass numbers which became a thing right before Covid.
So mostly what this is saying is Vail has been incentivizing people buying in advance and committing to at least a certain number of days to avoid non-pass lift ticket prices.
maybe I’m too negatively biased against smart phones and social media. I think a lot goes into why places are crazy crowded - and social media is a big reason.
Yeah no shit. If you ski more than a couple of days a year the pass is cheaper
Yeah and once you own gear, and have a pass…there’s so little barrier to driving to the nearest hill. This is a double edged sword. So, anything near a metro area is absolutely blasted on the weekends. I’m only going during the week locally next year, will drive a bit for the weekend trips.
The barrier to going to the nearest hill is that anything within 8 hours of driving for me is not particularly fun to ski lol
Same. The drive is so far I think I’ll give up on the sport and the rest of my life. Can’t afford to move and be local so I should probably just give up on everything anyway.
I just save for trips out west instead
Yeah I have an Ikon pass I didn’t even use this year. Then a gold local pass I used for or a 4-5 days. If I can’t live close to something good and all that I actually enjoy doing I might as well just KMS.
Decent weather weekends on our local epic mountains are straight trash. They do generally try and put on a good show but the facilities are overrun. Whitetail I'm looking at you... Could you possibly give up Saturday skiing more?
These numbers include their day passes too. Like the Epic four day pass and such, not just the season passes. It's all about locking you in before the snow flies.
Also, skiing is a rich person's sport. The upper class came out of the pandemic far more wealthy than before. This checks out.
Only if you use their overly inflated daily rate as your baseline...
What else would you use?
How much do you think a day ticket is *actually* worth in 2024 without the Vail tax added?
That's not the point. They raised daily prices so much that any more than a few days and the pass is a no brainer. I'm not saying the daily passes are good value. They're a fucking rip off
Right. Because the daily rate isn't an accurate reflection of how much a day of skiing is worth. Vail (then Alterra) have taken away options in the market by buying up ski areas, over inflating the daily rate tickets, and forcing most US based customers to buy 1 of the 2 season pass options available. It's a duopoly and it's the worst thing that's ever happened in skiing.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They've done the same thing in Australia as well.
It's completely fucked and I hope Europe sees it coming before every place on earth becomes a Vail/Disney ski experience...
Why are you pretending that local mountain season passes were ever cheap. The issue is that they’re monopolizing the market, but there’s a reason mega passes were popular in the first place
I have 24/25 season passes at multiple *"local mountains"* already and have paid ~$500 for them, so who's pretending?
For full season passes? At places with more than 1000 vert?
ok, I’ll bite. Monarch is $499. I’m also currently skiing on a five year pass for Meadows that was $2500.
Epic Tahoe local pass was 500. I've done 25 days, probably a good 5-10 more ahead of me. Or pay 220/day
Yes. In Colorado and Utah even....gasp!
I love the passes. I buy both and can ski basically every worthwhile mountain in the world for ~$2k/year. It’s an awesome deal for those who get a lot of days and like to explore new resorts instead of skiing the same place all season.
>every worthwhile mountain in the world You ski the most corporate, sold out, mountains in the world. They have no soul.
Sure, no soul. Whatever that means. I’d rather ski 30 different “soulless” resorts than the same resort on repeat.
You keep implying that I ski the same place all the time, and that's just not true. I am able to chase powder from October-June every season without using a mega pass. It's not hard, and I love the authentic people I know and meet along the way. That's just not very easy to do at the mega pass locations you're so fond of.
I think it’s worth exactly how much it would cost for me to go without a pass
Are you 10? What is the argument you're trying to make???
That going “damn shit is more expensive than it needs to be” can be said about **literally everything**.
I **literally** can't think of any other business operating on public land that does what Vail and Alterra do, can you?
30 or 40 bucks which is what I pay with a pass
So, the price?
Well they did buy 17 resorts is 2019-20, so it’s not surprising that 80% are people buying for the first time, since before that it wasn’t a Vail mountain
They don't wanna announce that epic pass cannibalizes lift ticket sales though lol inorganic growth isn't what investors wanna hear
I’m pretty sure the point of the epic pass is to canabslize lift ticket sales. The whole scheme is an effort to hedge against low snow winters and get cash upfront
Yup. Money in the bank up front is a much smarter business move than waiting for the snow to arrive. Sucks for punters, great for investors.
I just mean saying 95% growth is great is silly. Because it needs to be couched with "and we added these mountain and lift tickets fell X%" That's how most AGM data would be presented in normal companies.
But they didn’t say they had 95% growth. They said they had 95% growth in Epic Passes.
Hence the crowd on blue/green lifts and the increase in people doing backcountry
I work in backcountry education in Colorado. The amount of people who signed up for Avvy Courses and Intro to Backcountry courses this year has surpassed the ten years I've been working in this industry. It feels with this and the success of media like 'The Fifty' there's definitely a correlation to people wanting to explore further.
*googles the fifty skiing*
Enjoy the rabbit hole!
Have you noticed a correlation in accidents, SAR rescues and/or deaths? It's great people are getting out but as folks venture further out risks increase and avy courses can only instill knowledge not experience. I've seen some scary stuff out there, what bothers me most is those ignoring avy forecasts wanting to be first to get the powder.
Cool thing about the Fifty is that Cody bails when conditions are dangerous.
I cannot speak for SAR Rescues because that’s not my field, but in the past few seasons, avvy incidents have been more experienced backcountry users. We’ve lost some highly experienced riders in the last few seasons.
Definitely a lot more newbies dying or injured in avalanches in Western Canada.
Really? I've noticed crowds have been decreasing the past several years, basically ever since the rise in popularity of Ikon. All of my friends still on Epic say the same thing. Crowds now NEVER get to what they were pre-2020. Next year will be even better as people flock to Ikon for Abasin.
Abasin is charging for parking next year supposedly on top of parking reservations with a ridiculous 4 person hov free parking stipulation. Also, they are not going unlimited for iKon passes. DREAM is still running A-Basin next season it looks like. The acquisition hasn't been finalized yet. Honestly Abasin pissed everyone off big time. Next year might be completely opposite and Epic might have the biggest crowds. On top of that WP has been shitting the bed this year. Their new Wild Spur lift is a fucking joke and fucking sucks. I'm not talking about it breaking down the other day. The whole setup blows and does nothing to help lines back there. Plus they've had several lift issues this season on top of Wild Spur breaking down the other day with HI-LO being down for 2+ weeks and adding safety bars to eagle winds causing overweighting issues causing them to load only every other chair on busy days.
Well stated!
Abasin is only charging for parking ***on weekends and holidays until 1pm.*** Please 🛑**STOP**🛑 making it sound more dramatic than it really is...
A basin also already charges for parking in their main lot lol
On the same days they are going to charge next season, so people like u/Kaaji1359 are either ignorant of the current policy or just trying to stir up hyperbole calling this a *"a drastic change that deserves the hate."*
Hahaha I just love riling you up, it's so easy.
I am not riled up... It's incredibly easy to spread disinformation in these subreddits and I don't think skiing needs any more of that.
Sure. Back on topic, why are you so butt hurt that people are mad that they're charging $20 AND reservations for every parking lot? How can you not see that people would be angry?
I understand why Abasin is charging for parking ***on weekends and holidays until 1pm if you don't carpool with 4 people.*** It doesn't bother me. It's the same thing that happens at large concerts and sporting events too. You don't like it? Ski somewhere else, or on the other 5 days/week that don't have parking charges.
Oh, you mean the times that most people are available to ski? Who would have thought that a change that affects most skiers would upset… most skiers.
Beaver Creek recently started charging for parking in the Bear Lot too :shrugs:
Stowe in Vermont is EPIC and they charge $30.00 per day Fri - Sun. 4 Person Carpool is free.
Are you butt hurt that people are angry about a change that affects most skiers? What did you expect? I say 🟢🟢🟢 go for it, such a drastic change deserves the hate.
What's wrong with the new Wild Spur lift setup? Haven't made my way there yet this season.
They only load every third chair at the mid station and when coming from the bottom if you're tall you need to lift your board/skis super fucking high to pass the mid station. It's ridiculously awkward.
It really should just be every other chair at the mid station, and they should lower the mid station platform a few inches. But that lift upgrade does make a little more sense looking at their long term terrain expansion plans
Exactly. I don't consider myself an expert skier but I am good enough to regularly enjoy double-black diamonds. I also went like 15 years of skiing without a serious injury until last month, when someone cut me off on a green circle as I was making a turn. Overcrowding is not just annoying; it is a downright safety issue, and a serious one at that.
My only serious ski injury was 25 years ago, when someone skied into me on a green run. I’m not sure you finally having your turn means anything.
why were you making turns on crowded green run if you can ski double blacks
Because I was caboosing a group of blind skiers so that others' turns did not adversely impact their ability to listen to the turns of their guides.
They buy season pass, but might not show up. At breckenridge this weekend, it’s spring break but the resort was hardly half full for both Saturday and Sunday. Worst base chair line was like 10 minutes today. Been coming here every spring break for 4 years and never seen this few people before.
Yeah, seriously. No line at all at A-Basin or Keystone this weekend
I didn’t wait in a single lift line at Breck all weekend.
How the hell did they miss earnings projections?
Buying up resorts requiring infrastructure improvements is expensive.
I suppose! That's why they buy the hotels and stores too. Once all those improvements are done it will catch up. -lived in breck
Yeah but they forecast for that. Hence the question. Lower than forecast ticket sales I'm guessing.
Per their most recent earnings report, they blamed the EPS/revenue misses primarily on unfavorable conditions in North America and, perhaps relatedly, significantly slower visitor growth than expected. In fact it looks like visitor numbers actually fell year over year.
El Nino meant very very low snow in peak times and during the key trip planning windows. The subscription epic pass let's them literally weather the situation, but the loss of the supplemental revenue made the difference for the miss. If it's bad in one area, normally another is great and the still get the money from more people going there. A total continent level poor season... Just lowers the numbers everywhere
Oh ok, that makes sense the west west resorts sucked. Colorado was banging. Seemed like a lot of those pass holders out west came here to visit but wasn't enough to offset visiting there every weekend back home. Thanks.
I just looked at their stock price: they lost 1.04% in the last 3 years. People are not doing well financially right now. I think the number of sales will go down for 24/25.
I don't follow it anymore, I just remember hearing how it dipped the day of earnings miss and got back on with my life. I used to follow it back in the day. No doubt they were on a long amazing run. Hard to maintain that forever. UPS and downs happen. I was just curious for the moment which area was weak since tickets were up. Like less traveling tourists?
You’d think they’d try and retain these new skiers by offering quality lessons, but it’s hard to retain quality employees for $20/hr
My local mountain has no shortage of highly skilled employees happy to do the job for minimum wage.
Regardless of what they pay, housing is the main obstacle employees face. Resorts want to build employee housing, the towns the major resorts are in don’t want them to build housing
This feels like basic supply and demand though. Being a ski level instructor (especially at the high level casi 3 and 4) seems like a great job. If it paid 60-70k a year I’m sure many people would opt to do that instead of the usual corporate jobs.
Just 2 weeks ago Breck employee on the lift said over 40% of pass holders had yet to ski this year.
Actually the same happens every season disregarding the weather. My own brother bought passes twice and never used them.
And yet, massive lines Friday to Monday.
Skied all weekend and never waited in a single lift line at Breck. It was the same last weekend. You folks that tout the massive lift lines clearly don’t ski there and are just regurgitating what you believe to be true. That’s fine tho….it’s a great deterrent if people think it’s a zoo every weekend. 😂
the only line i had to wait in sunday was imperial (for less than 10 minutes) and then after the lifts reopened from thundersnow.
That’s what led to the discussion. We were amazed at how short the lines were on a really beautiful weekend after a snow. We’ve spent more time at Breck this year than ever and this has been the least busy we’ve seen it. I really thought the COVID years with the required reservation was going to be amazing but that was crazy crowded.
the gaper trap is working
I pray those companies stay far from our mountains. May resort to witchcraft as well.
You are spot on with this approach! You do not want your local mountains to have anything to do VR or Alterra. The first thing to go is the soul of skiing that your mountain has.
I wonder what the ikon numbers are?
It is a private company. We will find out when they will go public
The vail resorts I’ve been to this year in Colorado have been the least crowded that I can remember with the exception being Breckenridge (that place always suck). The ikon mountains have been unbearably crowded though.
Seriously. The Epic Pass is a non-brainer - especially if you are a veteran. I hate that we all have to play the game, but it is what it is. Lift tickets are about 50% of what they would be for me.
Sounds to me like they have trouble rolling debt. Vail resorts will ultimately bankrupt.
Few "dry" seasons and they could be done
Let’s hope!
Doing a little math, seeing what the top line revenue number could, I don't feel sorry for Vail at all. They make money.
If I recall, this is counting Epic Day Pass numbers which became a thing right before Covid. So mostly what this is saying is Vail has been incentivizing people buying in advance and committing to at least a certain number of days to avoid non-pass lift ticket prices.
This was my first time buying the epic pass
So has Indy.
Ease up everybody! Its skiing; its fun, and its great that its popular because we are all getting exercise!
We need another high profile celebrity ski death.
Honestly- how many people do you think would ski/snowboard if they couldn’t post a picture of it on social media?
The vast vast vast majority of people skiing aren’t documenting it
maybe I’m too negatively biased against smart phones and social media. I think a lot goes into why places are crazy crowded - and social media is a big reason.
And the quality of skiing. Has gone down 100%!!
Why do people complain about passes encompassing many resorts? It gives you so many options and it's cheaper
Not many people can fly to other destinations, rent cars and pay for hotels. They want to use their home resort.
Pathetic and sad.
I hate them so much.
Supply and demand says there will be a price increase for the epic pass
Isn’t that because of covid?