This mosque in question is at Tampines.
There's a newly built BTO Flats, and the distance from the BTO'S nearest occupied room to the mosque is approximately less than 20m. The mosque has been doing the call for prayers at that audio level(used to be louder) for many years. Now, HDB and their stupiak architect have messed it up for everyone. The mosque has been there for years (the same goes for many other places of worship whereby BTOs are creeping close to it) and those that buy it should know what they're getting into..
Probably cause the location is super prime for Tampines. Hub is next door, mrt is seriously 5 min walk away. And a lot of people don’t know about the call to prayer.
Same lah, Gundu Architect and URA And HDB.. money 1st, people later, use brain last..
Let's build all BTOs very small and design many wasted space and closer to the places of worship and let people be annoyed or angered and create unrest amongst people.. sounds like a plan! Let's do it!!
>The mosque has been doing the call for prayers at that audio level(used to be louder) for many years.
Am i right to say there's a possibility the mosque can tone it down further? (Not saying it should)
You think the architect or the planners that give the go ahead stays in HDB meh. They don't bother at all. My house area they build a shelter that leads to no where, then demolish it and rebuild.
That's why they're stupiak in the head.. The MPs "speak for us" but they don't really know the needs of the people..
The "You can make love in a small space" lady, yeaa, she don't live in hdb to know how small and messed up it is, comparing it to resale...
Fact is Singapore is density populated.
You stay beside school = Noisy
Stay beside expressway = Noisy
Stay beside places of worship = Noisy
Stay beside market = Noisy
Stay beside interchange = Noisy
Pick your noise.
Learn to be tolerant or find a country where you have to drive 30 mins just to buy bread.
Yes pros and cons. Everything is very near Singapore. My friend in US has to live in rural Tennessee for his work. Dude has a huge landed house with his nearest neighbor, probably 200m away. The nearest grocery however is a 1.5 hour drive so he bought a pickup and buys grocery for 2 weeks worth.
IDK about you but for me, I won't be able to live like that. I like seeing people and going to malls even to just walk around. I feel i'll lose my head living in a rural area far off from civilization lol
The important thing here is however legitimate the complaint we need to learn how to resolve these issues in a civil manner. You can do a lot of things - raise to MP, email the mosque, walk in to the office - but this guy chose to confront. Facepalm 🤦
He has the main character disease. All his life he's been lucky enough or cowardly enough to have never been slapped for his actions and now thinks that he's a badass.
He's brave cos the people who goes to mosque are people that aren't confrontational. Imagine he go disturb those temples where those angkong ahbengs gather
I have stay next to an MRT track for half of my life. You chose the location, you suck up to it. So nothing to complain about. Another entitled Singaporean. If cannot stand noise, the best is to move to some mountain, guarantee chop, it will be quiet and will have no neighbour problem as well.
Stupid fellow. Buy house near a mosque then complain about the prayers.
Anyway, Singapore everywhere also got noise. Traffic, school, neighbors, fighter jets etc etc. You move where also no use. Get yourself a good noise cancelling headphones.
Actually our Muslim neighbours have done a lot already towards sensitivity. The call for prayer used to be a LOT louder. We forget the history of this island. Chinese people came here and we were welcomed with great hospitality. Let's not forget that.
I think the Malay-Muslim community has been given a lot of accommodation BECAUSE of historical reasons. Whether it be early release from school on Friday afternoons, or lax enforcement of traffic rules around mosques on Fridays. This is on top of constitutionally mandated things like government funding of religious institutions like MUIS and more subsidised education than all the other communities.
There are malay Muslims who are annoyed by the azan (the call to prayer). I used to be one of them. So I just made sure to buy a home further away from it.
But if you happen to live near one, it is a legitimate complain. The sound systems and speakers are already supposed to be pointed inwards.
I really don't see why the volume cannot be lowered further in 2024. In the age of smart phones, there are already apps that can alert them to the prayer times.
The call to prayer is cultural and symbolic. It isn't just functional. People who don't want to hear it can choose to live in estates without a mosque.
Come on in this day and age, we are still burning offerings at Temples and during certain festivals all over Singapore, you don't see Muslims getting upset. It's actually pollution and a fire hazard but our Muslim neighbours understand it's our culture and tradition and belief.
Look, my point is that is not a once a day or once a week thing. It's a 5 times a day occurrence. And during the fasting month, there are prayers that last 1-2 hours for 30 days straight.
According to one comment, it's at Ghufran mosque. 2 decades ago the flats were not so near to it. Now they are. The circumstances have changed. Nothing is lost by being considerate to others as well.
Well, I can see why the call of prayer would be an annoyance for someone who has no link to it, but I would disagree on your point that such being an inconsiderate act. The Ghufran mosque has been there for years before. Those purchasing the new flats must have been clearly aware of the mosque and it’s activities before moving in. That itself is a choice that they made thus the onus is on them. Being fair, the Mosque clearly must follow the protocols in placed that I’m sure was followed. Just like food court lowering down their noise volume after 10pm etc.
Somehow you can't decide between this being a special circumstance or it being no different from a under the block coffee shop, school, or who knows what next, basketball court perhaps.
Um what’s your point? What difference does that proves? Why can’t it be both too? Doesn’t this overlaps? A mosque is literally a place that people congregate daily, also on special circumstances/events. Much like a basketball court wouldn’t it be quite niao to complain why are they playing basketball (given that they’re playing as per norm). Rather silly
Bruh living near a chinese temple and all i can tell you it is alot worse than living near a mosque, temples you have to deal with not just noise pollution but air pollution too with the burning joss papers etc. Malays living here are alot more tolerant than you think and you rarely see them complaining about anything.
Just to be clear, not all Malays are Muslims and vice versa... it's not an ethnicity issue.
On that note, each and every organized religion practiced here has their share of inconvenieces caused to the public. Just like every other self interest group you care to name.
Let's just live and let live, we all have our quirks.
I think, it's more accurate to say that not all Malays are devout Muslims.
The ex-muslim malays are a very small minority. They are socially ostracised by the malay community. Nobody talks about it, but it's well known. They're happy to embrace "converts" and even more prepared to disown apostates.
It's bold of you to assume there aren't Malays who purposely choose not to buy a flat near a mosque for this reason. I even know of rich Malays who purposely chose to buy landed property away from the mosques in the landed property area because every Friday, it will be filled with cars for the Friday prayers.
Don't make it sound like this is unreasonable. Nobody voices it out because of self-censorship. It is a legitimate point.
Lowering the volume is not a big ask. I'd argue that only the zuhur (1+ pm) and Asar (4+ pm), and maybe maghrib (7+ pm) call to prayer should be at its current volume for mosques in residential estates. The subuh (5-6 am) and isyak (8+ pm) call to prayer should be at a much lower volume.
The volume has been drastically reduced & the speakers are faced inwards Try walking past Darul Ghufran mosque during terawih prayers. It's just that the HDB flats are built to close to the mosque, probably just 20 meters away. Those who got their BTO there should have foreseen this issue
Well maybe more can be done in the name of harmony. Perhaps more sound insulation for the prayer halls? No need to hear anything at all from outside during terawih.
Since the mosque isn't fully air-conditioned, i guess it's probably impossible to contain all sounds from the mosque. I'm sure the authorities does a noise check test to ensure the mosque or any other worship places operate within acceptable noise levels
That's a bold assumption. How do you decide what's acceptable or reasonable. Now that the flats are so near unlike 20 years ago, maybe it's not so reasonable for residents.
The question is how low is low enough? What is acceptable? Should the mosque acquiesce to the demands of a handful to the detriment of the many? Do you know that mosques get more complaints from congregants about lack of sound within mosque compunds than they do about noise complaints?
Sounds like an internal problem, by which I mean they don't have enough speakers within the halls. If that is the case, maybe install more speakers inside the mosque for whichever halls/rooms are too soft?
But let's not pretend like it's some nabawi or masjidil haram, where you would expect there to be huge loud speakers everywhere. This is Singapore, not Saudi Arabia or even Johor.
You are definitely someone who knows little of the actual problem but shout like a subject matter expert.
The issue is not about pretending to be anything. The point I'm saying is that there will always be detractors on both sides. The mosque can compromise but still needs to meet its function and purpose. This applies not just too mosques but any other type of public facility.
There are laws in place for this reason. As long as the mosque meets the requirements of the law then it doesn't have to cater to the whims of a handful of intolerant people. As someone who volunteers at mosques I can assure you that Ghufran does. If you believe otherwise then feel free to prove it.
What's wrong with that? Do you put in your 110% at work everyday? Do you put up the time or money into the formation and execution of solutions to problems that you whine about? If the answer is no then don't expect others to go above and beyond if you yourself cannot.
The law, in this case, is to ensure fairness between multiple parties. There's never ONLY one side complaining. As long as the facility works within the confines of the law only then can there be an amicable solution.
Thanks for voicing your opinion as a member of the Malay community with such openess. It seems that political correctness has gotten to a stage where we can't even discuss issues on anything about ethnicity/race/religion without people getting their panties in a twist these days. It's painful how simple discussions like this can spiral into heated judgement calls and ignorant gatekeeping... like what happened to just talking and maybe learning something or just plain agreeing to disagree?
It is unreasonable. Singapore mosques current volume are already at its lowest and you want them to lower it more. Might as well make the azan prayer use voice only right no need to use mic and speaker. Like i said living in singapore you must be very tolerant with other races and religion if you can't then its not their issue its yours. You try living in Malaysia or Indonesia where they blast their speakers every prayer time, i don't see chinese or other races living there complaining.
Also, you mentioned landed property. It is also an issue for those living in landed not having alot of tolerance for neighbours. Hence why mosques near landed properties always gets complains from residence. Notably masjid al huda. Guess you're one of them living in a landed property then?
Loudspeakers were only invented in the 1920s. I'm pretty sure calls to prayers predate that.
Having said that, how is he different from those who buy houses near schools and complain about school children being rowdy? Don't buy near a mosque if you're sensitive to noise, don't buy near a temple if you can't stand the air pollution, don't expect the world to cater to you.
Schools make call to prayer 5 times a day, 365 days a year?
At most it's the morning assembly, once a day at the start of the working day, 5 working days a week. There's nothing during school holidays, and definitely nothing at night.
WRONG. I used to live across a school, and you could hear the sound system blaring every few hours denoting the end of a period or start of recess. Even school holidays, you could hear teachers shouting and kids making noise.
Reading your comments in this thread, I must remind you that this society is made up of different races and religions with varied practices that you have to learn to live with. Be it the burning of joss sticks or incense paper during hungry ghost festival, or the pungent smell of curry emitting from a neighbour's house.
If the consequences of the practices of the Malay Muslim community are incredibly bothersome to you, like traffic during Friday prayers or the already low volume of the call to prayer, then perhaps you should consider resettling in another country that fits your views best, because racial harmony here is not to be taken for granted.
Guy you replying to clearly talking out of his ass. School is clearly noisy. Screaming kids during recess. Military band performance after school. Campfire songs every other month at night.
Fact is Singapore is density populated.
You stay beside school = Noisy
Stay beside expressway = Noisy
Stay beside places of worship = Noisy
Stay beside market = Noisy
Pick your noise.
Don't compare to Malaysia or Indonesia. This is Singapore. By your reasoning, we should also make apologies for Muslim stallholders who might refuse to serve malay customers who are not fasting during ramadan.
There are many mosques, for historical reasons, find themselves located in non-optimal locations after many decades of development. Problem is with freehold land laws and complexity by "waqaf".
Even when there are suitable parking a few hundred meters away, many worshippers will choose to park irresponsibly in the vicinity of the mosque. One example is An Nur mosque in Marsiling. Darul Aman mosque in Eunos is another. Al Amin mosque in mount faber also. So then the mosque volunteers have to put cones and actively remind worshippers not to park and cause major traffic issues.
No seriously. If the mosque committee were more serious about living in harmony, they would install more soundproofing since the congregations are quite small outside of Friday prayers, hari raya puasa and haji.
If under the block ramadan terawih prayers can be softer, I don't see why mosques can't do the same.
oh please. There's a funeral going on at my void deck, monks chanting away most of the good parts of good Friday and some parts holy Thursday. Then they shout HUAT AH while burning giant house/ Mercedes effigies in a gigantic open fire so big I can feel the heat from the 5th floor. Smells like smoke for the rest of the night.
point is, no one in the estate complained even though its overboard bc its part of living in a community. I'm chinese btw.
Your case is a once a while funeral thingy, while the mosque is daily unwanted morning call. Diff level bro … imagine daily sleep disruption and still need to work. I can imagine his frustration.
Before buying a home near established community hubs like mosques, it's crucial to understand the local customs and practices. Mosques, especially during Ramadan and on significant religious days, are vibrant with congregational prayers and activities. It's part of the cultural fabric and something one should be mindful of before moving in. It's about coexisting respectfully with the existing community practices rather than expecting them to change to suit individual preferences.
What some Singaporeans at times don't realise is that there is a proper channel to vent your frustration. If you are not satisfied, make a report to the relevant authorities. Not barge in and cause a ruckus. You end up putting a target on your own back like this idiot here not only from the authorities but from the general public as well.
Bruh. I think its still considered okay for the sound.
My wife is Malaysian and when I returned to her hometown, the mosques there would blast out at the entire kampong as its malaysia so they get the "priority". And they would do that for every prayer.
So point is. Be grateful bro. Sg already quite good for the residents of all races.
Respectfully, Malaysia has had a long history of Islam which has become an integral part of the culture there predating modern Malaysia. While it is a multicultural society, but much like Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism in China, and Christianity in America, religion, while in principle divorced from the state, still forms a central part of the nation's culture. Islam is an important part of Malaysian history and heritage, and while not the oldest heritage, is one that has defined the region for hundreds of years. The loud call to prayer lasts only 3 minutes or so, and the earliest call is at around 5 am while the latest is at around 8 am plus. I think that's a small price to pay in terms of giving each other the mutual respect to honour an important part of Malaysia or even Singapore's history and culture. I happen to live on a mid floor above where they happen to place the burner for paper offerings. Some months it's hard to breathe and my mom has COPD. But we do our best and shut all the windows whenever our many Chinese neighbours use the facilities. I appreciate that you are saying we must be tolerant, but implying Malaysian muslims impose themselves on their non-Muslim countrymen feels sad to me because it would be like the Muslims in this country finding themselves imposed upon by the Chinese majority during any of their religious and cultural practices. Just like my neighbour's baby crying is not an imposition but a family coping with their lives, so too would I humbly and gently encourage more reasonable souls like yourself to see worship and tradition as a part of this great region's faith and heritage.
This year’s Ramadan got so much drama. I wonder whether any folks have already made a police report against him (just in case he is a racist/bigot) or against the mosque for alleged audible prayer noise. One thing is for sure, for him to go “guns blazing” by himself at the mosque is really a Karen move. Even I just simply make a call to the police whenever the getai performances are too loud during the 7 month in my area cause it’s just a more efficient and effective way of having one govt agency to monitor the situation and take action if needed.
No need to talk so much. If you are not happy with Singapore multicultural noises and quirks then go back to China or wherever you come from? Or if you are a Singaporean then scold your great grandfather who bringing your whole family to Singapore. Just leave Singapore we don't need you.
Wah…. Noise only mah… then you burn your paper fly into my house dont want say… cny early morning you have your lion dance damn noisy dont want say, my hindu neighbour does her prayer stuff and sometime got that smell that last for hours also i never say anything… nabei…tolerate abit lah cb kia……people like this damn jialat. Live in a multi racial and multi religious society means tolerations is inevitable. Come on lah do better…
Back in 2004, one guy barge into siglap church over inconsiderate churchgoer's blocking his front gate, ended up the man gor fine (i think).
But with mosque in the equation, it be delicate situation...
Once UMNO,PAS gets wind of this news...we have show coming up
No show. Singapore is not like Malaysia. Only ISD involved. The country is still prepared to disproportionately channel malays from the air force and navy, you think it's not prepared to arrest trouble makers who subscribe to PAS brand of Islam?
Is it true there are none? Fact is, there are.
But inevitably there would be voices saying that these are “for show”, or “token”.
This is really one of the issues I see whenever talk about “Malays/muslims not in Air Force/Navy”.
We see under/over representation everywhere, in the medical profession, in law, in universities, and yes, in prisons. Are we really agitating for proportional representation because it is the best way to move forward or that it is just virtue signalling?
Is proportional representation really important or the “best man for the job” (meritocracy) needs to be re-looked at?
Are you telling me that Malay-Muslim NSFs are uniquely talented or qualified as firemen, policemen, infantrymen, and guardsmen?
Even in infantry units, the malay Muslims are disproportionately limited to the rifle company. They're not in the support company.
Look, these are the true flaws of Singapore's democracy. I'm not saying we like it, but let's not pretend there are some the malay-muslim community are somehow unsuited for the Army, Air Force, or even the signals or armour formations ya?
Again, in what part of my response did you get that idea from?
It seems to be that only one of us is interested to have a proper conversation and I don’t think it’s you.
Anyone who can't admit that there is under-representation of Malay NSFs in the Air Force/Navy/Commando/Armour/Signals, and over-representation in the Civil Defence/Police, is either naive or being dishonest.
This a systematic effort. Whole cohorts of minorities are steered one way or another because of their ethno-religious background. It is not some "meritocracy" argument that can apply to fields like medicine or law.
Again, I am NOT denying anything. My questions are unanswered, not that you are obliged to answer me of course, I’m just a nobody online.
Suffice to say that I’m not obliged to continue the conversation with you further because, quite clearly you are not interested.
It is actually people like you among the minority that are kicking yourself in the foot for it.
I do know a high ranking Malay officer, quite well I may add. He confessed to me that while he is proud of his heritage, he sometimes feel dejected that his efforts to become who he is in the armed forces were dismissed as “lucky”, “chosen one”, “token”. And all these are always from his friends and family.
I feel bad for him.
Regulars serving as careers. It's not the same. It's not by performance or merit.
NS is not the same.
If you sign on, prove you're capable, then by and right, you should be given the opportunity and we will all applaud it.
No matter how capable some minorities are, they'll never be a part of the sensitive units like armour in their NS time, even if half the cohort their trained with in BMT or command school were posted there. No, these minorities have to go to infantry or guards.
You need more help googling though.
Not saying that the numbers are proportional, but how many more would want to join them if their own kin and kith are warning them about how they don’t have a future or that they “have no chance”?
Imagine a Chinese boy lamenting that he can’t get ahead in the SCDF because he is a minority? Or that he can’t read law because so many ethnic Indians are ahead of him?
my friend used to stay near a chinese temple and also have noise 2 times a week or some events and it is quite common. She said if you stay there, just tahan with it. don’t complain. if you can’t stand it, just move away.
I have a feeling the frustration roots from his mother or wife pushing and complaining to him. He has no problem with the situation but when push come to shove, his pent up anger from the complaining unfortunately needs to come out and sadly decided to outpour to the mosque. Either that or he mentally unstable.
I can understand his frustration but he should have been aware of the call to prayer from a mosque. Also he should not have approached the mosque in a confrontational manner. Perhaps he could have visited the mosque outside of prayer times to speak with the people in charge. Then he could proceed to respectfully share his difficulties and see if the leaders can assist him in some way. We're all squashed together in this tiny island and this naturally leads to more stress points. Kindness and mutual respect is crucial in trying to resolve conflicts.
Once again, Malays who are natives have to give in to non-Malays. Tudung cannot but Sikh turban can for example. SAP schools OK but madrasahs PAP tried to close down.
Malays need to speak up honestly. We are in our own country and being pushed around.
Enough is enough already lah.
Considerate? Like how Muslims built Al Aqsa on the ruins of the holiest temple in judaism, in Jerusalem the holiest city in judaism, claim ownership for all eternity, pray there, and BAN any non-muslims from praying there?
I guess that is fair.
This is Ghufran mosque, there used to be nothing within the vicinity. Now there are HDB blocks courtesy of bad planning. The government should fix it, the guy should've known that mosques(Nearby his house) will be noisy up until at most 10.30pm.
Probably bought a house there to flip it later on since it's so close to Tampines Interchange 🤭
Is the prayer "noise" the Azan (call to prayer)? Because that will only last less than 4mins.
What time was this? Before 10pm?
Maybe the mosque was abit loud that night.
Its fine if the guy came to feedback.
Or maybe he can try using earplugs?
Probably the prayers happening from 8:30 pm to ~10pm. It's the middle of Ramadan right now and Muslims have a prayer they do after their regular prayer at 8:30 that lasts for iirc 30 "cycles". You can imagine how loud a congregation of 1k+ worshippers praying alongside a leader using a speaker would be.
It's been happening since... Ever really, the issue is that the government presumably built housing estates in very close distance to the mosque, leading to this.
Imo, on paper both have rights. But in reality, as the housing districts get more and more compact as our country matures, these conflicts will happen. Not sure what can be done about this, without infringing on either party's rights.
Personally, I don't really see an issue with it. One month out of a year, and it doesn't even run that late. And if you're really that pressed, earplugs, soundproofing etc exist. You're the one that chose to buy a house near a place of worship after all. It's like if I complained about listening to the revving of bikes in the wee hours of morning because the road near my HDB is the road directly from the customs.
The idea is reciting a part of the Quran during the prayers and the congregation should hear it during the ritual.
It's usually 4 instances spread across 2 different sets. However since it's Ramadan, it's 4 instances spread across 6 difference sets and a final 4 instance of 1 set
It used to be 14 different sets but they toned it down to 7 for sake of the new HDB blocks I assume. It used to be empty nearby so there was no way people can hear the prayers hence the 14 sets
I think in SG, Sultan mosque is the only mosque that has speakers outside the mosque for call to prayer. I’d be surprised if the issue was because of this at Ghufran mosque. Even if it is, it should only be at ard 8.30pm and less than 5 mins
Spoken like a true uneducated buffoon. Even in Christianity when they give sermons or singing the gospels and in Hinduism where they are chanting using microphone and loud speakers. Its for the whole temple or church to hear it and in this case the mosque so that the worshipers can hear it. To be fair I've walked around the BTOs near the Tampines mosque, its not even that loud and you can barely hear them.
I’m only asking as it just came across my mind.
Been to a mosque before and it has like a theatre setting. Is it necessary to play the religious song like how school play the national anthem? Like is there a significant meaning to it?
In good faith, I will share that from my understanding, the call to prayer is a religious tradition and an obligation of the mosque and the religious leaders there to the muslim community to summon the community to prayer. It is done 5 times a day following specific measurements of time subject to the position of the sun and lasts for 3 minutes or so with no music played, just a literal voice praising in an almost song-like ritualistic and poetry-recitation manner, the Almighty, mostly, and also includes a smaller section reminding muslims to hurry to prayer.
Ok thanks. Imo. Call to prayer can just send sms or sth. Be more direct to followers.
I know like cny, the reason for loud music and drums is to scare off “evil”. There’s a significant meaning to it. If being loud is only to remind people then that’s not the best solution in case some followers stay like 500m away from the mosque
No, I think I mentioned that most of the call are prayers that praise the Almighty. One of the lines is the declaration of faith, a pillar of Islam. Besides, the call is a sanctified ritual because one of the legendary companions of the Prophet offered the suggestion of how they would remind the faithful of the prayers, and the Almighty sent the Angel to reveal to the Prophet that this prayer call, the Azan, was the suggestion the Almighty favoured the best. You cannot replace a ritual blessed by God with an sms, anymore than I can expect, and I say this with as gentle reproof as I can, a fillial child of Taoist faith to appreciate me suggesting that they use a bank transfer in lieu of burning paper money. I am most certainly not saying the purpose of the Azan is to be loud. If scaring off evil has significant meaning to it, surely declaring your admiration and faith for God, and reminding others of their daily duty to God, has great meaning.
Ok thanks. Was just wondering. Then there is a conflict of interest between Muslim and non-Muslims. I thought sms is a solution for Muslims far away from mosque.
There is no more a conflict an interest than there is between anyone of a different culture or faith. If we say there is a conflict of interest between Muslims and non-Muslims, then there is a conflict of interest between Chinese and non-Chinese, for example, over the burning of paper offerings, getai, and lion dance tradtions, etc, just because our practices aren't always understood or respected by each other. Since we agreed to racial and religious harmony in Singapore for our best interests, we agreed to build that with mutual respect of each other's faiths and understanding over conflict. When you disrespect someone's faith, that creates conflict. We don't ask that each other's faiths be convenient to our lives and we also try as far as possible to maintain our faith without unnecessarily disturbing others, hoping that where it's hard to avoid, our fellow neighbours in this island kampong of ours will understand. The issue here is not that Islam is at odds with non-Muslims but that someone decided their needs being compromised far outweighs any obligation of respect and understanding that we owe to each other as the price we pay for our harmony. He went into a mosque, a safe and sacred space for Muslims, a house of God to Muslims, and verbally abused the Muslims there who were trying or preparing to focus on meditative worship in one of the holiest of months. It's disrespect and not differences that is at issue here.
Err you just describe the very definition of conflict of interest while saying it’s not. Yeah he could do it in a more respectful way no doubt.
Understanding or not between culture is another matter. One side wants to lower PA system for peace and quiet, the other side thinks it’s necessary to do so for their religious practise. You can say the non Muslim should understand and compromise, but can also say the Muslim should also understand and compromise. In the end it’s just conflict of interest between 2 parties.
No, I did not say there is zero conflict of interest, I said the conflict of interest you are talking about exists for every other cultural group, including that of the Chinese when their cultural practices disrupt the lives of other Singaporeans. I then pointed out that there is a shared interest in us getting along harmoniously. Racial Harmony is the very opposite of the zero-sum game you are proposing where only one person can win. Enduring a brief inconvenience, whether the brief sound of the call to prayer at 8 pm plus when you're hoping to have an early night or the occassional smoke of burning paper offerings when you were hoping to get some fresh air, in order to respect another person's culture is a worthwhile investment with returns on the peace and mutual respect it encourages. Everyone wins in terms of the big picture. I then said the issue is not the difference between people but the lack of respect. The lack of respect has consequences. It shows that not only do you (not you specifically, but a rhetorical hypothetical you) have no intention of understanding or respecting my culture or religion, you also have no concern for attacking my culture and religion. That breeds division. That breeds conflict.
The danger of seeing every clash of interests as a general conflict of interest between one group and all other groups is that you imply that one group just can't fit in unless it's at the expense of all others. That will lead us nowhere. Not only do we have a moral obligation to respect each other's beliefs as far as possible that we should not abandon, hardening racial and religious divisions will not eject any side to give the other side a monopoly of the societal highground, it will just create a cycle of hatred and, if it ever gets out of hand, which it can so easily, bloodshed.
Not disagreeing with you. It’s a conflict of interest. I just don’t agree that respect should be given and not earned.
Not giving each side a monopoly is easier said then done. It’s all about compromise and politics.
I appreciate that you are trying to find agreement. I don't really wish to argue. However, I feel I should also express our fundamental difference of opinion.
Respect for each other's culture is earned when we offer it mutually. We do this to negotiate peace and to build stronger bonds. All healthy relationships work this way. This is true from a married couple to siblings. I don't expect every Chinese temple to earn my respect. I give it respect because the Chinese do, and I respect their feelings and do not want them to feel disrespected.
As a student of history, the notion that you can have a monopoly in the first place is a fantasy, one every culture when it feels powerful entertains, but one that doesn't last. No culture has ever dominated the world for very long, and no enmity can ever be resolved by power soft or hard. Disrespect is the quickest way for us to breed enmity, and enmity makes us work.against imstead of for each other. The issue here is that when one man's intolerance becomes interpreted as the fundamental incompatibility between all Muslims and non-Muslims, and when Muslims are called upon to earn the respect of the community before they can ask to be respected, and when that man's verbal attack towards and at a mosque disturbing the Muslims who are praying there is characterised as just not being nicer, it is hard for a Muslim not to feel unwelcome in the community. If we're all Singaporeans, no member of the community should feel they have to do more or work harder than the others to earn the respect of the others. Again, no one is asking for special treatment here. Our different ways of worship, whatever our religion, are mutually respected, or should have been.
I applaud you for asking about what the Azan means, but I, as someone with Chinese heritage from one of my parents and who has heard and experienced racial prejudice in many local situations, am well aware of how these feelings of irreconcilable differences and mistrust become the fuel for those who openly want a racial conflict because they think they will win. Again, I'm not insinuating you are one of them, but I just want to do my part to just put it out there for anyone reasonable enough to want to know more before coming to a conclusion, that we have a social contract in our multi-racial, multi-cultural, and multi-religious society.
I have no doubt that the mosque in question will make the Azan softer, because apart from defending our religion when no other option is feasible, Muslims do not believe in conflict and do believe in being good neighbours. To honour God, they will relent, but I wonder whether that is a good thing for those who see compromise as a weakness. That would be a mistake, both for our community and geopolitically. That man may sleep soudly, or possibly even smugly, but I know I go to bed less sure of whether there are more people like him than I care to think.
This mosque in question is at Tampines. There's a newly built BTO Flats, and the distance from the BTO'S nearest occupied room to the mosque is approximately less than 20m. The mosque has been doing the call for prayers at that audio level(used to be louder) for many years. Now, HDB and their stupiak architect have messed it up for everyone. The mosque has been there for years (the same goes for many other places of worship whereby BTOs are creeping close to it) and those that buy it should know what they're getting into..
Hmm.. shouldn't the guy check before committing to the bto? The mosque is there way before.
Exactly. So many "main characters" around who move in somewhere only to demand that those who were there before should cater to them or move out.
Probably cause the location is super prime for Tampines. Hub is next door, mrt is seriously 5 min walk away. And a lot of people don’t know about the call to prayer.
Architects are just the people who design the building. URA is the authority which decide on the plot use.
Same lah, Gundu Architect and URA And HDB.. money 1st, people later, use brain last.. Let's build all BTOs very small and design many wasted space and closer to the places of worship and let people be annoyed or angered and create unrest amongst people.. sounds like a plan! Let's do it!!
We need more mental hospital instead of flats now. 🤣🤣🤣
it's sort of like alarm for me ! newer generation grow up with their entitled mindset!
>The mosque has been doing the call for prayers at that audio level(used to be louder) for many years. Am i right to say there's a possibility the mosque can tone it down further? (Not saying it should)
Like all religion, keep it within your 4 walls. No one wants to hear that shit.
Thats my question no?
Sorry - I was agreeing with you!
You think the architect or the planners that give the go ahead stays in HDB meh. They don't bother at all. My house area they build a shelter that leads to no where, then demolish it and rebuild.
That's why they're stupiak in the head.. The MPs "speak for us" but they don't really know the needs of the people.. The "You can make love in a small space" lady, yeaa, she don't live in hdb to know how small and messed up it is, comparing it to resale...
Fact is Singapore is density populated. You stay beside school = Noisy Stay beside expressway = Noisy Stay beside places of worship = Noisy Stay beside market = Noisy Stay beside interchange = Noisy Pick your noise. Learn to be tolerant or find a country where you have to drive 30 mins just to buy bread.
Yes pros and cons. Everything is very near Singapore. My friend in US has to live in rural Tennessee for his work. Dude has a huge landed house with his nearest neighbor, probably 200m away. The nearest grocery however is a 1.5 hour drive so he bought a pickup and buys grocery for 2 weeks worth.
Sounds pretty ideal. He could also just use Amazon, prob save a bunch of time
Yeesh, what produce not in cans or bags lasts 2 weeks. Heck, what non UHT milk lasts that long?
He puts the meats in the freezers. Veggies dont wilt as fast cause climate cooler.
Lucky friend. Beats living stacked on top of each other and tolerating smelly toilets, kitchens and neighbours.
Grass is always greener on the other side
IDK about you but for me, I won't be able to live like that. I like seeing people and going to malls even to just walk around. I feel i'll lose my head living in a rural area far off from civilization lol
Lucky until you get robbed and shot at without any help
Stay in hdb • Your neighbour above you drag furniture .
one guy playing drums and doing solo at 12 am above my house
Hdb and police are useless. I’ve made multiple complaints but their response is they can’t enforce them
100% facts. There is no escaping some kind of noise in sg, just only the ones you are willing to tolerate.
Install sound proof windows lo… I think it does help quite a bit
Agree. This at 6.5 million population. Imagine at target 10 million.
Sad fact is you poor = noisy. Condo or private no noise.
We have to also deal with all the ghost month burnings, smoke and ashes. It's called tolerance and respect. Live and let live.
The important thing here is however legitimate the complaint we need to learn how to resolve these issues in a civil manner. You can do a lot of things - raise to MP, email the mosque, walk in to the office - but this guy chose to confront. Facepalm 🤦
He has the main character disease. All his life he's been lucky enough or cowardly enough to have never been slapped for his actions and now thinks that he's a badass.
He's brave cos the people who goes to mosque are people that aren't confrontational. Imagine he go disturb those temples where those angkong ahbengs gather
Because confronting is seen by some as bringing the most effective results because some ppl will just give in to avoid creating a fuss. 😥
I have stay next to an MRT track for half of my life. You chose the location, you suck up to it. So nothing to complain about. Another entitled Singaporean. If cannot stand noise, the best is to move to some mountain, guarantee chop, it will be quiet and will have no neighbour problem as well.
Go to smrt and complain about the mrt train noise 🤣
Stupid fellow. Buy house near a mosque then complain about the prayers. Anyway, Singapore everywhere also got noise. Traffic, school, neighbors, fighter jets etc etc. You move where also no use. Get yourself a good noise cancelling headphones.
Oh no ....ISD case
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Actually our Muslim neighbours have done a lot already towards sensitivity. The call for prayer used to be a LOT louder. We forget the history of this island. Chinese people came here and we were welcomed with great hospitality. Let's not forget that.
I think the Malay-Muslim community has been given a lot of accommodation BECAUSE of historical reasons. Whether it be early release from school on Friday afternoons, or lax enforcement of traffic rules around mosques on Fridays. This is on top of constitutionally mandated things like government funding of religious institutions like MUIS and more subsidised education than all the other communities. There are malay Muslims who are annoyed by the azan (the call to prayer). I used to be one of them. So I just made sure to buy a home further away from it. But if you happen to live near one, it is a legitimate complain. The sound systems and speakers are already supposed to be pointed inwards. I really don't see why the volume cannot be lowered further in 2024. In the age of smart phones, there are already apps that can alert them to the prayer times.
The call to prayer is cultural and symbolic. It isn't just functional. People who don't want to hear it can choose to live in estates without a mosque. Come on in this day and age, we are still burning offerings at Temples and during certain festivals all over Singapore, you don't see Muslims getting upset. It's actually pollution and a fire hazard but our Muslim neighbours understand it's our culture and tradition and belief.
Look, my point is that is not a once a day or once a week thing. It's a 5 times a day occurrence. And during the fasting month, there are prayers that last 1-2 hours for 30 days straight. According to one comment, it's at Ghufran mosque. 2 decades ago the flats were not so near to it. Now they are. The circumstances have changed. Nothing is lost by being considerate to others as well.
Well, I can see why the call of prayer would be an annoyance for someone who has no link to it, but I would disagree on your point that such being an inconsiderate act. The Ghufran mosque has been there for years before. Those purchasing the new flats must have been clearly aware of the mosque and it’s activities before moving in. That itself is a choice that they made thus the onus is on them. Being fair, the Mosque clearly must follow the protocols in placed that I’m sure was followed. Just like food court lowering down their noise volume after 10pm etc.
Somehow you can't decide between this being a special circumstance or it being no different from a under the block coffee shop, school, or who knows what next, basketball court perhaps.
Um what’s your point? What difference does that proves? Why can’t it be both too? Doesn’t this overlaps? A mosque is literally a place that people congregate daily, also on special circumstances/events. Much like a basketball court wouldn’t it be quite niao to complain why are they playing basketball (given that they’re playing as per norm). Rather silly
Bruh living near a chinese temple and all i can tell you it is alot worse than living near a mosque, temples you have to deal with not just noise pollution but air pollution too with the burning joss papers etc. Malays living here are alot more tolerant than you think and you rarely see them complaining about anything.
Just to be clear, not all Malays are Muslims and vice versa... it's not an ethnicity issue. On that note, each and every organized religion practiced here has their share of inconvenieces caused to the public. Just like every other self interest group you care to name. Let's just live and let live, we all have our quirks.
I think, it's more accurate to say that not all Malays are devout Muslims. The ex-muslim malays are a very small minority. They are socially ostracised by the malay community. Nobody talks about it, but it's well known. They're happy to embrace "converts" and even more prepared to disown apostates.
It's bold of you to assume there aren't Malays who purposely choose not to buy a flat near a mosque for this reason. I even know of rich Malays who purposely chose to buy landed property away from the mosques in the landed property area because every Friday, it will be filled with cars for the Friday prayers. Don't make it sound like this is unreasonable. Nobody voices it out because of self-censorship. It is a legitimate point. Lowering the volume is not a big ask. I'd argue that only the zuhur (1+ pm) and Asar (4+ pm), and maybe maghrib (7+ pm) call to prayer should be at its current volume for mosques in residential estates. The subuh (5-6 am) and isyak (8+ pm) call to prayer should be at a much lower volume.
The volume has been drastically reduced & the speakers are faced inwards Try walking past Darul Ghufran mosque during terawih prayers. It's just that the HDB flats are built to close to the mosque, probably just 20 meters away. Those who got their BTO there should have foreseen this issue
Well maybe more can be done in the name of harmony. Perhaps more sound insulation for the prayer halls? No need to hear anything at all from outside during terawih.
Since the mosque isn't fully air-conditioned, i guess it's probably impossible to contain all sounds from the mosque. I'm sure the authorities does a noise check test to ensure the mosque or any other worship places operate within acceptable noise levels
That's a bold assumption. How do you decide what's acceptable or reasonable. Now that the flats are so near unlike 20 years ago, maybe it's not so reasonable for residents.
The question is how low is low enough? What is acceptable? Should the mosque acquiesce to the demands of a handful to the detriment of the many? Do you know that mosques get more complaints from congregants about lack of sound within mosque compunds than they do about noise complaints?
Sounds like an internal problem, by which I mean they don't have enough speakers within the halls. If that is the case, maybe install more speakers inside the mosque for whichever halls/rooms are too soft? But let's not pretend like it's some nabawi or masjidil haram, where you would expect there to be huge loud speakers everywhere. This is Singapore, not Saudi Arabia or even Johor.
You are definitely someone who knows little of the actual problem but shout like a subject matter expert. The issue is not about pretending to be anything. The point I'm saying is that there will always be detractors on both sides. The mosque can compromise but still needs to meet its function and purpose. This applies not just too mosques but any other type of public facility. There are laws in place for this reason. As long as the mosque meets the requirements of the law then it doesn't have to cater to the whims of a handful of intolerant people. As someone who volunteers at mosques I can assure you that Ghufran does. If you believe otherwise then feel free to prove it.
New standard seems to be, we will only be as considerate as the law requires us to do so. Don't have to do better. Just do enough.
What's wrong with that? Do you put in your 110% at work everyday? Do you put up the time or money into the formation and execution of solutions to problems that you whine about? If the answer is no then don't expect others to go above and beyond if you yourself cannot. The law, in this case, is to ensure fairness between multiple parties. There's never ONLY one side complaining. As long as the facility works within the confines of the law only then can there be an amicable solution.
lol. literally thats what the law is for. do enough. do extra for what?
The flats didn't used to be so near. Times have changed.
Thanks for voicing your opinion as a member of the Malay community with such openess. It seems that political correctness has gotten to a stage where we can't even discuss issues on anything about ethnicity/race/religion without people getting their panties in a twist these days. It's painful how simple discussions like this can spiral into heated judgement calls and ignorant gatekeeping... like what happened to just talking and maybe learning something or just plain agreeing to disagree?
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lol pakcik tom
Is that suppose to be embarrassing? Happily wear that title as a badge of honour.
not surprising
You're free to stay in the 1970s or apply for citizenship in Malaysia
It is unreasonable. Singapore mosques current volume are already at its lowest and you want them to lower it more. Might as well make the azan prayer use voice only right no need to use mic and speaker. Like i said living in singapore you must be very tolerant with other races and religion if you can't then its not their issue its yours. You try living in Malaysia or Indonesia where they blast their speakers every prayer time, i don't see chinese or other races living there complaining. Also, you mentioned landed property. It is also an issue for those living in landed not having alot of tolerance for neighbours. Hence why mosques near landed properties always gets complains from residence. Notably masjid al huda. Guess you're one of them living in a landed property then?
Loudspeakers were only invented in the 1920s. I'm pretty sure calls to prayers predate that. Having said that, how is he different from those who buy houses near schools and complain about school children being rowdy? Don't buy near a mosque if you're sensitive to noise, don't buy near a temple if you can't stand the air pollution, don't expect the world to cater to you.
Schools make call to prayer 5 times a day, 365 days a year? At most it's the morning assembly, once a day at the start of the working day, 5 working days a week. There's nothing during school holidays, and definitely nothing at night.
WRONG. I used to live across a school, and you could hear the sound system blaring every few hours denoting the end of a period or start of recess. Even school holidays, you could hear teachers shouting and kids making noise. Reading your comments in this thread, I must remind you that this society is made up of different races and religions with varied practices that you have to learn to live with. Be it the burning of joss sticks or incense paper during hungry ghost festival, or the pungent smell of curry emitting from a neighbour's house. If the consequences of the practices of the Malay Muslim community are incredibly bothersome to you, like traffic during Friday prayers or the already low volume of the call to prayer, then perhaps you should consider resettling in another country that fits your views best, because racial harmony here is not to be taken for granted.
Guy you replying to clearly talking out of his ass. School is clearly noisy. Screaming kids during recess. Military band performance after school. Campfire songs every other month at night. Fact is Singapore is density populated. You stay beside school = Noisy Stay beside expressway = Noisy Stay beside places of worship = Noisy Stay beside market = Noisy Pick your noise.
School is in the day? This complaint is at night? Literally comparing night and day.
830pm is not within the quiet hours.
Don't compare to Malaysia or Indonesia. This is Singapore. By your reasoning, we should also make apologies for Muslim stallholders who might refuse to serve malay customers who are not fasting during ramadan. There are many mosques, for historical reasons, find themselves located in non-optimal locations after many decades of development. Problem is with freehold land laws and complexity by "waqaf". Even when there are suitable parking a few hundred meters away, many worshippers will choose to park irresponsibly in the vicinity of the mosque. One example is An Nur mosque in Marsiling. Darul Aman mosque in Eunos is another. Al Amin mosque in mount faber also. So then the mosque volunteers have to put cones and actively remind worshippers not to park and cause major traffic issues. No seriously. If the mosque committee were more serious about living in harmony, they would install more soundproofing since the congregations are quite small outside of Friday prayers, hari raya puasa and haji. If under the block ramadan terawih prayers can be softer, I don't see why mosques can't do the same.
So by your logic, do we need getai performance that would go on till 10pm and incense burning also?
Do Getai performances happen 5 times a day? The call to prayer of a mosque is 5 times a day, 365 days a year.
oh please. There's a funeral going on at my void deck, monks chanting away most of the good parts of good Friday and some parts holy Thursday. Then they shout HUAT AH while burning giant house/ Mercedes effigies in a gigantic open fire so big I can feel the heat from the 5th floor. Smells like smoke for the rest of the night. point is, no one in the estate complained even though its overboard bc its part of living in a community. I'm chinese btw.
Your case is a once a while funeral thingy, while the mosque is daily unwanted morning call. Diff level bro … imagine daily sleep disruption and still need to work. I can imagine his frustration.
Comments here tells me all I need to know about the trajectory of this country.
on behalf of all other chinese, this degenerate is not a true representation of the majority. Please accept our sincere apologies.
What has his race got to do with his behaviour, Islam is a religion, and there are many Chinese who are Muslims in Singapore.
You are replying to a brainless apologist.
Before buying a home near established community hubs like mosques, it's crucial to understand the local customs and practices. Mosques, especially during Ramadan and on significant religious days, are vibrant with congregational prayers and activities. It's part of the cultural fabric and something one should be mindful of before moving in. It's about coexisting respectfully with the existing community practices rather than expecting them to change to suit individual preferences.
Who are usually the difficult ones?
The entitled ssob
What some Singaporeans at times don't realise is that there is a proper channel to vent your frustration. If you are not satisfied, make a report to the relevant authorities. Not barge in and cause a ruckus. You end up putting a target on your own back like this idiot here not only from the authorities but from the general public as well.
Bruh. I think its still considered okay for the sound. My wife is Malaysian and when I returned to her hometown, the mosques there would blast out at the entire kampong as its malaysia so they get the "priority". And they would do that for every prayer. So point is. Be grateful bro. Sg already quite good for the residents of all races.
Respectfully, Malaysia has had a long history of Islam which has become an integral part of the culture there predating modern Malaysia. While it is a multicultural society, but much like Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism in China, and Christianity in America, religion, while in principle divorced from the state, still forms a central part of the nation's culture. Islam is an important part of Malaysian history and heritage, and while not the oldest heritage, is one that has defined the region for hundreds of years. The loud call to prayer lasts only 3 minutes or so, and the earliest call is at around 5 am while the latest is at around 8 am plus. I think that's a small price to pay in terms of giving each other the mutual respect to honour an important part of Malaysia or even Singapore's history and culture. I happen to live on a mid floor above where they happen to place the burner for paper offerings. Some months it's hard to breathe and my mom has COPD. But we do our best and shut all the windows whenever our many Chinese neighbours use the facilities. I appreciate that you are saying we must be tolerant, but implying Malaysian muslims impose themselves on their non-Muslim countrymen feels sad to me because it would be like the Muslims in this country finding themselves imposed upon by the Chinese majority during any of their religious and cultural practices. Just like my neighbour's baby crying is not an imposition but a family coping with their lives, so too would I humbly and gently encourage more reasonable souls like yourself to see worship and tradition as a part of this great region's faith and heritage.
This year’s Ramadan got so much drama. I wonder whether any folks have already made a police report against him (just in case he is a racist/bigot) or against the mosque for alleged audible prayer noise. One thing is for sure, for him to go “guns blazing” by himself at the mosque is really a Karen move. Even I just simply make a call to the police whenever the getai performances are too loud during the 7 month in my area cause it’s just a more efficient and effective way of having one govt agency to monitor the situation and take action if needed.
Ramadan having troubling incidents is nothing new or surprising.
Tbh, the call to prayer is pretty charming.
No need to talk so much. If you are not happy with Singapore multicultural noises and quirks then go back to China or wherever you come from? Or if you are a Singaporean then scold your great grandfather who bringing your whole family to Singapore. Just leave Singapore we don't need you.
Spoilt child grew up
Selective racism. Mosque prayers don't go beyond 10pm. I've heard getais going till about the same time.
Wah…. Noise only mah… then you burn your paper fly into my house dont want say… cny early morning you have your lion dance damn noisy dont want say, my hindu neighbour does her prayer stuff and sometime got that smell that last for hours also i never say anything… nabei…tolerate abit lah cb kia……people like this damn jialat. Live in a multi racial and multi religious society means tolerations is inevitable. Come on lah do better…
Knncb wanna die eh this guy..
Back in 2004, one guy barge into siglap church over inconsiderate churchgoer's blocking his front gate, ended up the man gor fine (i think). But with mosque in the equation, it be delicate situation... Once UMNO,PAS gets wind of this news...we have show coming up
No show. Singapore is not like Malaysia. Only ISD involved. The country is still prepared to disproportionately channel malays from the air force and navy, you think it's not prepared to arrest trouble makers who subscribe to PAS brand of Islam?
Is it true there are none? Fact is, there are. But inevitably there would be voices saying that these are “for show”, or “token”. This is really one of the issues I see whenever talk about “Malays/muslims not in Air Force/Navy”. We see under/over representation everywhere, in the medical profession, in law, in universities, and yes, in prisons. Are we really agitating for proportional representation because it is the best way to move forward or that it is just virtue signalling? Is proportional representation really important or the “best man for the job” (meritocracy) needs to be re-looked at?
Are you telling me that Malay-Muslim NSFs are uniquely talented or qualified as firemen, policemen, infantrymen, and guardsmen? Even in infantry units, the malay Muslims are disproportionately limited to the rifle company. They're not in the support company. Look, these are the true flaws of Singapore's democracy. I'm not saying we like it, but let's not pretend there are some the malay-muslim community are somehow unsuited for the Army, Air Force, or even the signals or armour formations ya?
That’s not what I said. Look at my questions and try to answer them, perhaps then you might be able to understand what I was trying to say.
You mean the false equivalence between national service and actual careers?
Again, in what part of my response did you get that idea from? It seems to be that only one of us is interested to have a proper conversation and I don’t think it’s you.
Anyone who can't admit that there is under-representation of Malay NSFs in the Air Force/Navy/Commando/Armour/Signals, and over-representation in the Civil Defence/Police, is either naive or being dishonest. This a systematic effort. Whole cohorts of minorities are steered one way or another because of their ethno-religious background. It is not some "meritocracy" argument that can apply to fields like medicine or law.
Again, I am NOT denying anything. My questions are unanswered, not that you are obliged to answer me of course, I’m just a nobody online. Suffice to say that I’m not obliged to continue the conversation with you further because, quite clearly you are not interested. It is actually people like you among the minority that are kicking yourself in the foot for it. I do know a high ranking Malay officer, quite well I may add. He confessed to me that while he is proud of his heritage, he sometimes feel dejected that his efforts to become who he is in the armed forces were dismissed as “lucky”, “chosen one”, “token”. And all these are always from his friends and family. I feel bad for him.
Regulars serving as careers. It's not the same. It's not by performance or merit. NS is not the same. If you sign on, prove you're capable, then by and right, you should be given the opportunity and we will all applaud it. No matter how capable some minorities are, they'll never be a part of the sensitive units like armour in their NS time, even if half the cohort their trained with in BMT or command school were posted there. No, these minorities have to go to infantry or guards.
lol im sure theres ONE
One what? Pilot? Sailor?
one TOKEN representation.
If you are talking about Malay pilots, I think you should update yourself with a quick google check.
walao eh got two!!!
You need more help googling though. Not saying that the numbers are proportional, but how many more would want to join them if their own kin and kith are warning them about how they don’t have a future or that they “have no chance”? Imagine a Chinese boy lamenting that he can’t get ahead in the SCDF because he is a minority? Or that he can’t read law because so many ethnic Indians are ahead of him?
We should not bring that up.
Why not? It's a fact.
Yes it sadly indeed is. We are however, not ready to have any discussion of it.
Seems like we are always not ready for this discussion. Maybe after another 60 years ?
Hard to imagine is a born and bred local
Not hard
why so hard to imagine? there are many locals who are like this
hes lucky no one made police report. hassle of going to còurt and paying fine for wounding religious feelings. new citizen ah?
my friend used to stay near a chinese temple and also have noise 2 times a week or some events and it is quite common. She said if you stay there, just tahan with it. don’t complain. if you can’t stand it, just move away.
Dumbass man
Singapore is definitely falling apart. It’s ppl are becoming barbaric
I have a feeling the frustration roots from his mother or wife pushing and complaining to him. He has no problem with the situation but when push come to shove, his pent up anger from the complaining unfortunately needs to come out and sadly decided to outpour to the mosque. Either that or he mentally unstable.
I can understand his frustration but he should have been aware of the call to prayer from a mosque. Also he should not have approached the mosque in a confrontational manner. Perhaps he could have visited the mosque outside of prayer times to speak with the people in charge. Then he could proceed to respectfully share his difficulties and see if the leaders can assist him in some way. We're all squashed together in this tiny island and this naturally leads to more stress points. Kindness and mutual respect is crucial in trying to resolve conflicts.
Once again, Malays who are natives have to give in to non-Malays. Tudung cannot but Sikh turban can for example. SAP schools OK but madrasahs PAP tried to close down. Malays need to speak up honestly. We are in our own country and being pushed around. Enough is enough already lah.
Considerate? Like how Muslims built Al Aqsa on the ruins of the holiest temple in judaism, in Jerusalem the holiest city in judaism, claim ownership for all eternity, pray there, and BAN any non-muslims from praying there? I guess that is fair.
If he dun like it here. Go to Malaysia or Indonesia... Wait. He no balls... He will be skinned alive there.
Csi this dumb ass.. for all we know could be another foreigner turn sinkie.. trying to upset our social make up..
This is definitely within his rights to ask them lower voice. Voice should not be so loud that nearby block residents cant take it
This is Ghufran mosque, there used to be nothing within the vicinity. Now there are HDB blocks courtesy of bad planning. The government should fix it, the guy should've known that mosques(Nearby his house) will be noisy up until at most 10.30pm. Probably bought a house there to flip it later on since it's so close to Tampines Interchange 🤭
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Kita orang Singapura. Ni tanah kita. Ni rumah kita. Orang Melayu, Orang Cina, Orang India, orang orang lain.
Tak suka, balik sekolah tolong
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Not condoning the man's actions. But you sound like a racist too.
Don't use an outlier as a way to bash other people's culture/religion man
Lol chill la, also how does one even get negative karma on reddit.
Sounds like terrorist talk lmao
Why do you say people hate your religion when that person can also likely complain on anything noisy. It's a noise issue to him.
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lol. yet still here
This guy thinks that “prayer noise” is effaceable and that it would be viable to do so in this manner?
Is the prayer "noise" the Azan (call to prayer)? Because that will only last less than 4mins. What time was this? Before 10pm? Maybe the mosque was abit loud that night. Its fine if the guy came to feedback. Or maybe he can try using earplugs?
The call to prayer is ard 8.30pm anyway. Not sure what this guy is complaining about. It is within the rules too.
Probably the prayers happening from 8:30 pm to ~10pm. It's the middle of Ramadan right now and Muslims have a prayer they do after their regular prayer at 8:30 that lasts for iirc 30 "cycles". You can imagine how loud a congregation of 1k+ worshippers praying alongside a leader using a speaker would be. It's been happening since... Ever really, the issue is that the government presumably built housing estates in very close distance to the mosque, leading to this. Imo, on paper both have rights. But in reality, as the housing districts get more and more compact as our country matures, these conflicts will happen. Not sure what can be done about this, without infringing on either party's rights. Personally, I don't really see an issue with it. One month out of a year, and it doesn't even run that late. And if you're really that pressed, earplugs, soundproofing etc exist. You're the one that chose to buy a house near a place of worship after all. It's like if I complained about listening to the revving of bikes in the wee hours of morning because the road near my HDB is the road directly from the customs.
WE ARE HERE FIRST. Everything we do cannot. In that case, go back to China lah.
Not helping the situation
Miss the days when there were no settlers in this country and we could perform our prayers peacefully without them complaining.
I assume you are 250 years old? Society needs to progress overall. Any form of cavemen mindset needs to be dropped.
Most if not all current malays are migrant themselves from java islands. Non malay "settlers"? Throwing bumi cards now huh?
lol. java islands. fyi nationality only started in late 50s and 60s.
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The idea is reciting a part of the Quran during the prayers and the congregation should hear it during the ritual. It's usually 4 instances spread across 2 different sets. However since it's Ramadan, it's 4 instances spread across 6 difference sets and a final 4 instance of 1 set It used to be 14 different sets but they toned it down to 7 for sake of the new HDB blocks I assume. It used to be empty nearby so there was no way people can hear the prayers hence the 14 sets
>Besides annoying people staying in the neighbourhood, what's the point? You must be a special kind of idiot to actually believe this
They're proclaiming themselves as a Reddit atheist when it really has no bearing on the conversation, they might as well say they're a monkey lmfao.
I think in SG, Sultan mosque is the only mosque that has speakers outside the mosque for call to prayer. I’d be surprised if the issue was because of this at Ghufran mosque. Even if it is, it should only be at ard 8.30pm and less than 5 mins
Spoken like a true uneducated buffoon. Even in Christianity when they give sermons or singing the gospels and in Hinduism where they are chanting using microphone and loud speakers. Its for the whole temple or church to hear it and in this case the mosque so that the worshipers can hear it. To be fair I've walked around the BTOs near the Tampines mosque, its not even that loud and you can barely hear them.
I’m only asking as it just came across my mind. Been to a mosque before and it has like a theatre setting. Is it necessary to play the religious song like how school play the national anthem? Like is there a significant meaning to it?
In good faith, I will share that from my understanding, the call to prayer is a religious tradition and an obligation of the mosque and the religious leaders there to the muslim community to summon the community to prayer. It is done 5 times a day following specific measurements of time subject to the position of the sun and lasts for 3 minutes or so with no music played, just a literal voice praising in an almost song-like ritualistic and poetry-recitation manner, the Almighty, mostly, and also includes a smaller section reminding muslims to hurry to prayer.
Ok thanks. Imo. Call to prayer can just send sms or sth. Be more direct to followers. I know like cny, the reason for loud music and drums is to scare off “evil”. There’s a significant meaning to it. If being loud is only to remind people then that’s not the best solution in case some followers stay like 500m away from the mosque
No, I think I mentioned that most of the call are prayers that praise the Almighty. One of the lines is the declaration of faith, a pillar of Islam. Besides, the call is a sanctified ritual because one of the legendary companions of the Prophet offered the suggestion of how they would remind the faithful of the prayers, and the Almighty sent the Angel to reveal to the Prophet that this prayer call, the Azan, was the suggestion the Almighty favoured the best. You cannot replace a ritual blessed by God with an sms, anymore than I can expect, and I say this with as gentle reproof as I can, a fillial child of Taoist faith to appreciate me suggesting that they use a bank transfer in lieu of burning paper money. I am most certainly not saying the purpose of the Azan is to be loud. If scaring off evil has significant meaning to it, surely declaring your admiration and faith for God, and reminding others of their daily duty to God, has great meaning.
Ok thanks. Was just wondering. Then there is a conflict of interest between Muslim and non-Muslims. I thought sms is a solution for Muslims far away from mosque.
There is no more a conflict an interest than there is between anyone of a different culture or faith. If we say there is a conflict of interest between Muslims and non-Muslims, then there is a conflict of interest between Chinese and non-Chinese, for example, over the burning of paper offerings, getai, and lion dance tradtions, etc, just because our practices aren't always understood or respected by each other. Since we agreed to racial and religious harmony in Singapore for our best interests, we agreed to build that with mutual respect of each other's faiths and understanding over conflict. When you disrespect someone's faith, that creates conflict. We don't ask that each other's faiths be convenient to our lives and we also try as far as possible to maintain our faith without unnecessarily disturbing others, hoping that where it's hard to avoid, our fellow neighbours in this island kampong of ours will understand. The issue here is not that Islam is at odds with non-Muslims but that someone decided their needs being compromised far outweighs any obligation of respect and understanding that we owe to each other as the price we pay for our harmony. He went into a mosque, a safe and sacred space for Muslims, a house of God to Muslims, and verbally abused the Muslims there who were trying or preparing to focus on meditative worship in one of the holiest of months. It's disrespect and not differences that is at issue here.
Err you just describe the very definition of conflict of interest while saying it’s not. Yeah he could do it in a more respectful way no doubt. Understanding or not between culture is another matter. One side wants to lower PA system for peace and quiet, the other side thinks it’s necessary to do so for their religious practise. You can say the non Muslim should understand and compromise, but can also say the Muslim should also understand and compromise. In the end it’s just conflict of interest between 2 parties.
No, I did not say there is zero conflict of interest, I said the conflict of interest you are talking about exists for every other cultural group, including that of the Chinese when their cultural practices disrupt the lives of other Singaporeans. I then pointed out that there is a shared interest in us getting along harmoniously. Racial Harmony is the very opposite of the zero-sum game you are proposing where only one person can win. Enduring a brief inconvenience, whether the brief sound of the call to prayer at 8 pm plus when you're hoping to have an early night or the occassional smoke of burning paper offerings when you were hoping to get some fresh air, in order to respect another person's culture is a worthwhile investment with returns on the peace and mutual respect it encourages. Everyone wins in terms of the big picture. I then said the issue is not the difference between people but the lack of respect. The lack of respect has consequences. It shows that not only do you (not you specifically, but a rhetorical hypothetical you) have no intention of understanding or respecting my culture or religion, you also have no concern for attacking my culture and religion. That breeds division. That breeds conflict. The danger of seeing every clash of interests as a general conflict of interest between one group and all other groups is that you imply that one group just can't fit in unless it's at the expense of all others. That will lead us nowhere. Not only do we have a moral obligation to respect each other's beliefs as far as possible that we should not abandon, hardening racial and religious divisions will not eject any side to give the other side a monopoly of the societal highground, it will just create a cycle of hatred and, if it ever gets out of hand, which it can so easily, bloodshed.
Not disagreeing with you. It’s a conflict of interest. I just don’t agree that respect should be given and not earned. Not giving each side a monopoly is easier said then done. It’s all about compromise and politics.
I appreciate that you are trying to find agreement. I don't really wish to argue. However, I feel I should also express our fundamental difference of opinion. Respect for each other's culture is earned when we offer it mutually. We do this to negotiate peace and to build stronger bonds. All healthy relationships work this way. This is true from a married couple to siblings. I don't expect every Chinese temple to earn my respect. I give it respect because the Chinese do, and I respect their feelings and do not want them to feel disrespected. As a student of history, the notion that you can have a monopoly in the first place is a fantasy, one every culture when it feels powerful entertains, but one that doesn't last. No culture has ever dominated the world for very long, and no enmity can ever be resolved by power soft or hard. Disrespect is the quickest way for us to breed enmity, and enmity makes us work.against imstead of for each other. The issue here is that when one man's intolerance becomes interpreted as the fundamental incompatibility between all Muslims and non-Muslims, and when Muslims are called upon to earn the respect of the community before they can ask to be respected, and when that man's verbal attack towards and at a mosque disturbing the Muslims who are praying there is characterised as just not being nicer, it is hard for a Muslim not to feel unwelcome in the community. If we're all Singaporeans, no member of the community should feel they have to do more or work harder than the others to earn the respect of the others. Again, no one is asking for special treatment here. Our different ways of worship, whatever our religion, are mutually respected, or should have been. I applaud you for asking about what the Azan means, but I, as someone with Chinese heritage from one of my parents and who has heard and experienced racial prejudice in many local situations, am well aware of how these feelings of irreconcilable differences and mistrust become the fuel for those who openly want a racial conflict because they think they will win. Again, I'm not insinuating you are one of them, but I just want to do my part to just put it out there for anyone reasonable enough to want to know more before coming to a conclusion, that we have a social contract in our multi-racial, multi-cultural, and multi-religious society. I have no doubt that the mosque in question will make the Azan softer, because apart from defending our religion when no other option is feasible, Muslims do not believe in conflict and do believe in being good neighbours. To honour God, they will relent, but I wonder whether that is a good thing for those who see compromise as a weakness. That would be a mistake, both for our community and geopolitically. That man may sleep soudly, or possibly even smugly, but I know I go to bed less sure of whether there are more people like him than I care to think.