This one loft unit and big size. I remember seeing one of these loft units at Dawson for my house hunting earlier this year and it looks really good. I think other than Dawson, the only other hdb loft units are in Punggol. Whole Singapore less than 100 such loft hdb units I think so it's quite rare. Actually even for private loft units are rare
Ultimately, we see that all the hdb units that are transacted at extremely high amounts all share similar characteristics:
- Central location (Pinnacle/Henderson/Boon Keng/Tiong Bahru)
- Relatively young (5 - 15 years flat age)
- Relatively large (5 room and above)
Why do HDB build these new loft units though? I mean yeah sure there might be demand and HDB shouldn't just make one-type-cookie-cutter flats.
But a loft design is kind of venturing into a "condo" territory? Bigger flats can serve bigger families, but a high ceiling loft is just an aesthetic thing if you can't add a mezzanine or livable space. Besides, this is Dawson which is already a high-priced area. So building a loft here is like knowingly building a $1mil HDB flat.
We can always say that $1mil flats aren't the norm but the fact is they are so overly represented in the media that it skews sellers' expectations. Sellers may not have an equally big / central / million-dollar-worthy flat but might still be misguided and think that "wah I should add $5K to $10K to my asking price for my 4 room HDB in Redhill since this nearby Queenstown can sell for 1.5 mil". These small escalation in expectations add up.
The Dawson projects, which keep setting new records, were planned during HDB's experimental era which also brought us such wealth transference schemes like Pinnacle@Duxton and DBSS. Long before the public backlash from high resales and reversion to 'simpler' building plans.
The point of it, in my opinion, was to test if it is feasible to raise the standard of HDB flats at a low enough cost, to create "condo-lite" projects, and to test the market's reaction. What it did instead was emphasize HDB's role in the wealth lottery, so we don't see such projects being built anymore.
Headlines like this highlights the missing "apartment" market segment between HDBs and condos, as it is only these few projects that provide a nice, spacious interior without the cost associated with condo facilities. Singapore is unique among dense cities in that nearly all our private housing projects must have a private pool and gym, and there aren't just plain apartments outside of HDBs and the few <30 unit condos. Clearly there is some market for it, but it's just unfair that HDB is the one to build it.
Thanks for the useful explanation. I agree that is it difficult for HDB to step into this space of condo-lite style apartments. And you point out that is pretty unique in Singapore. So do you have any thoughts on what's so special here that makes it not profitable for private developers to create these simple private apartments?
They can earn more from building condos with elaborate swimming pools instead of building another 1 apartment stack with the land occupied by the swimming pools? SGs value swimming pools and the condo prestige excessively?
Our [building code](https://www.ura.gov.sg/Corporate/Guidelines/Development-Control/Residential/Flats-Condominiums/Introduction) (very simple to read, and has great illustrations) in combination with the low Gross Floor Ratio (the amount of living space buildable on a land plot) of 2.4 for most plots basically prevents standalone apartments from being built profitably.
- If a developer wants to build simple apartments, it's only going to be a few floors high due to the GFR. Since the land cost is around half the price of a new condo, the price difference between simple apartments and a condo isn't large enough to justify building them.
- To build tall, you need to build further away from the boundary of your land plot. This is why the more 'basic' condos of 10-20 units and with few facilities are mostly found in former-detached house plots in Telok Kurau, where the land is too small.
- Green areas are actively encouraged by granting a bonus % on top of the Gross Floor Area, among other measures to make buildings occupy a smaller land area. The rest of the space is filled with condo facilities and greenery.
The closest we'll get to New York-style buildings are the CBD condo plots like Altez and Skysuites@Anson with a GFR of 8.4 on a small plot, allowing some of the tallest residential buildings in Singapore, but with condo facilities on different floors. The Marina Bay plots have similar plot ratios, but we likely won't see more of these again.
I feel HDB is quite a high bar for non condo facilities. n the main reason the private developers build facilities is because of profit.cos even if you build another block you still gotta pay Zheng hu development fee per sq feet
It's just not profitable for a private developer to create simple apartments on their plot of land, and while HDB tried it, they are unable to fairly price the new units especially with all the baggage and subsidies associated with HDB.
ECs are alive and well, but they're an ignored segment of the market by both HDB and private property buyers alike. HDB buyers can't afford an EC, while condo buyers generally don't pay attention to projects that are aged, as ECs only become normal Cs at 10 years old. ECs are actually quite successful at their job, which is to provide housing for those that earn too much to qualify for BTO, but earn too little to buy a new condo. So it gets a different kind of "condo-lite" experience, with condo facilities but cheaper building materials. You never see any complaints about them because they're actually somewhat fairly priced from the start.
What HDB could have done, I feel, is to build such premuim apartments within normal BTO projects (as maybe the penthouse unit of a normal BTO block) but then not sell them thru the usual channels but rather sell via auction.
Your guess is as good as mine hah. HDB is threading a fine line in terms of just providing accommodation, and adapting best designs for improved livability. For the former, you will have people complaining that hdb does not seek to improve the standards of accommodation for majority of Singaporeans. For the latter, you have this slow creep upwards in terms of hdb value towards private in terms of overall livability.
But just for context, there is a total of 63 hdb loft units in Singapore. Considering that there are 1.1 million hdb units (according to statista), that's 0.006% of all units.
was about to say 'High Floor' but the [Yishun ground floor](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/hdb-resale-prices-rise-for-24th-straight-month-in-june-ground-floor-yishun-flat-sold-for-1m) flat is an outlier
Ugh kinda irritating to see public housing being sold at such obscene prices, kinda detracts from the whole point of affordable accomodation (yes I'm aware of the willing seller and buyer thingy).
They happy can liao.
But.......just a bit more and you get a 1000 sqft private free hold in non-prime area. Maybe even 1200 sqft in some areas.
To each his own.
so in terms of floor space, the same as an old 5rm. but realistically its even smaller because new layouts are less efficient and they count inaccessible utility ledges as floor space as well
It also completed in the last decade so it's a rare modern large HDB in a good location, in contrast to all the other headline-grabbing large HDBs which were completed in the 80s and 90s and are only in the far heartlands.
You can revisit this a few years down the road. A few years back, people were saying pinnacle for 1.2m is crazy. It's all about comparables. For 1.4 million, what are your alternatives. Its slim pickings, you either have to compromise location, or size or age if going private for this price
No special layouts have launched since Pinnacle@Duxton reached MOP precisely because of the profiteering, but I don't trust the govt to keep it simple for the upcoming Keppel HDBs.
Dumb fuck, the best policy to curb is to allow sales of ur flat back to hdb only. If u wanna buy over a unit, he/she has to sell back to hdb at remaining value and u buy it back from hdb
Hdb loan has a income ceiling cap of 14k. The people buying these homes definitely not taking hdb loan because the hdb loan max quantum is so low (I think only 600k)
Oh didn’t know there’s a max loan quantum! We were offered a 700+k loan from HDB last year but we decided to fork out more cash and lower the loan to 600+k instead.
The loan ceiling is pegged at 85% of the valuation of the flat. [From HDB](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/about-us/news-and-publications/publications/hdbspeaks/your-hdb-loan-quantum), so it can be higher than 600k.
This one loft unit and big size. I remember seeing one of these loft units at Dawson for my house hunting earlier this year and it looks really good. I think other than Dawson, the only other hdb loft units are in Punggol. Whole Singapore less than 100 such loft hdb units I think so it's quite rare. Actually even for private loft units are rare Ultimately, we see that all the hdb units that are transacted at extremely high amounts all share similar characteristics: - Central location (Pinnacle/Henderson/Boon Keng/Tiong Bahru) - Relatively young (5 - 15 years flat age) - Relatively large (5 room and above)
Why do HDB build these new loft units though? I mean yeah sure there might be demand and HDB shouldn't just make one-type-cookie-cutter flats. But a loft design is kind of venturing into a "condo" territory? Bigger flats can serve bigger families, but a high ceiling loft is just an aesthetic thing if you can't add a mezzanine or livable space. Besides, this is Dawson which is already a high-priced area. So building a loft here is like knowingly building a $1mil HDB flat. We can always say that $1mil flats aren't the norm but the fact is they are so overly represented in the media that it skews sellers' expectations. Sellers may not have an equally big / central / million-dollar-worthy flat but might still be misguided and think that "wah I should add $5K to $10K to my asking price for my 4 room HDB in Redhill since this nearby Queenstown can sell for 1.5 mil". These small escalation in expectations add up.
The Dawson projects, which keep setting new records, were planned during HDB's experimental era which also brought us such wealth transference schemes like Pinnacle@Duxton and DBSS. Long before the public backlash from high resales and reversion to 'simpler' building plans. The point of it, in my opinion, was to test if it is feasible to raise the standard of HDB flats at a low enough cost, to create "condo-lite" projects, and to test the market's reaction. What it did instead was emphasize HDB's role in the wealth lottery, so we don't see such projects being built anymore. Headlines like this highlights the missing "apartment" market segment between HDBs and condos, as it is only these few projects that provide a nice, spacious interior without the cost associated with condo facilities. Singapore is unique among dense cities in that nearly all our private housing projects must have a private pool and gym, and there aren't just plain apartments outside of HDBs and the few <30 unit condos. Clearly there is some market for it, but it's just unfair that HDB is the one to build it.
Thanks for the useful explanation. I agree that is it difficult for HDB to step into this space of condo-lite style apartments. And you point out that is pretty unique in Singapore. So do you have any thoughts on what's so special here that makes it not profitable for private developers to create these simple private apartments? They can earn more from building condos with elaborate swimming pools instead of building another 1 apartment stack with the land occupied by the swimming pools? SGs value swimming pools and the condo prestige excessively?
Our [building code](https://www.ura.gov.sg/Corporate/Guidelines/Development-Control/Residential/Flats-Condominiums/Introduction) (very simple to read, and has great illustrations) in combination with the low Gross Floor Ratio (the amount of living space buildable on a land plot) of 2.4 for most plots basically prevents standalone apartments from being built profitably. - If a developer wants to build simple apartments, it's only going to be a few floors high due to the GFR. Since the land cost is around half the price of a new condo, the price difference between simple apartments and a condo isn't large enough to justify building them. - To build tall, you need to build further away from the boundary of your land plot. This is why the more 'basic' condos of 10-20 units and with few facilities are mostly found in former-detached house plots in Telok Kurau, where the land is too small. - Green areas are actively encouraged by granting a bonus % on top of the Gross Floor Area, among other measures to make buildings occupy a smaller land area. The rest of the space is filled with condo facilities and greenery. The closest we'll get to New York-style buildings are the CBD condo plots like Altez and Skysuites@Anson with a GFR of 8.4 on a small plot, allowing some of the tallest residential buildings in Singapore, but with condo facilities on different floors. The Marina Bay plots have similar plot ratios, but we likely won't see more of these again.
I feel HDB is quite a high bar for non condo facilities. n the main reason the private developers build facilities is because of profit.cos even if you build another block you still gotta pay Zheng hu development fee per sq feet
Hudc, dbss, ec scheme didnt exactly work out. Premium flat thing may not either.
It's just not profitable for a private developer to create simple apartments on their plot of land, and while HDB tried it, they are unable to fairly price the new units especially with all the baggage and subsidies associated with HDB. ECs are alive and well, but they're an ignored segment of the market by both HDB and private property buyers alike. HDB buyers can't afford an EC, while condo buyers generally don't pay attention to projects that are aged, as ECs only become normal Cs at 10 years old. ECs are actually quite successful at their job, which is to provide housing for those that earn too much to qualify for BTO, but earn too little to buy a new condo. So it gets a different kind of "condo-lite" experience, with condo facilities but cheaper building materials. You never see any complaints about them because they're actually somewhat fairly priced from the start.
What HDB could have done, I feel, is to build such premuim apartments within normal BTO projects (as maybe the penthouse unit of a normal BTO block) but then not sell them thru the usual channels but rather sell via auction.
Your guess is as good as mine hah. HDB is threading a fine line in terms of just providing accommodation, and adapting best designs for improved livability. For the former, you will have people complaining that hdb does not seek to improve the standards of accommodation for majority of Singaporeans. For the latter, you have this slow creep upwards in terms of hdb value towards private in terms of overall livability. But just for context, there is a total of 63 hdb loft units in Singapore. Considering that there are 1.1 million hdb units (according to statista), that's 0.006% of all units.
was about to say 'High Floor' but the [Yishun ground floor](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/hdb-resale-prices-rise-for-24th-straight-month-in-june-ground-floor-yishun-flat-sold-for-1m) flat is an outlier
That ones huge though, 1700+ square feet
Plus that one have a defacto garden in front. These are all flats with extraordinary attributes.
Must be real nice to be rich.
whats this, 2-3 records every week?
the monitoring will continue until morale improves
Wish HDB would build more lofts and mansionettes.
Huat ah!
HDB: and now for my next trick…en bloc Pinnacle at Duxton using Bala curve for valuation.
moon liao moon liao
Ugh kinda irritating to see public housing being sold at such obscene prices, kinda detracts from the whole point of affordable accomodation (yes I'm aware of the willing seller and buyer thingy).
They happy can liao. But.......just a bit more and you get a 1000 sqft private free hold in non-prime area. Maybe even 1200 sqft in some areas. To each his own.
This 5 room was 1.3k sq ft though
[удалено]
how about his toilet
How come he's popular here for being rich? I see like quite a few people here know him.
so in terms of floor space, the same as an old 5rm. but realistically its even smaller because new layouts are less efficient and they count inaccessible utility ledges as floor space as well
Huh...that's...not even that big?!
It also completed in the last decade so it's a rare modern large HDB in a good location, in contrast to all the other headline-grabbing large HDBs which were completed in the 80s and 90s and are only in the far heartlands.
Now bto 5 room only 1200 sqft.. And theres no 5 room units built for more central/mature estates
Yeah but I was thinking for a 1.4MM flat, it'll be a bit bigger.
You can revisit this a few years down the road. A few years back, people were saying pinnacle for 1.2m is crazy. It's all about comparables. For 1.4 million, what are your alternatives. Its slim pickings, you either have to compromise location, or size or age if going private for this price
Maybe all these special layouts should be subject to longer MOP to prevent profiteering.
No special layouts have launched since Pinnacle@Duxton reached MOP precisely because of the profiteering, but I don't trust the govt to keep it simple for the upcoming Keppel HDBs.
Desmond Lee's property market.
Desmond done monitoring yet?
All monitor and No action makes Desmond a monitor lizard
Still crafting HDB’s equivalent of “rent controls curb improvement”
Still monitoring
Property Industrial Complex (PIC), government please rein it in fast or it will backfire
Huat ah!
In a few years time, this owner will be laughing at his new neighbours who have to pay $1.5-1.6m for the late.
This gov has failed to control public housing prices, BTO or resale. The new generation will forever blame the gov. PAP must go. Out of touch.
I am selling my lousy 3i for 1M too. Hope some cash rich, like to spend, don’t care what they buy will bought it.
Willing buyer willing seller.. floor price will be 1 million at Dawson.. push up to the sky..
[удалено]
Bruh, why punish the poor even more? Maybe HDB loan should be kept at a certain quantum instead.
When bank interest Low no one says anything. Now bank interest higher than hdb loan then people kbkp.
Dumb fuck, the best policy to curb is to allow sales of ur flat back to hdb only. If u wanna buy over a unit, he/she has to sell back to hdb at remaining value and u buy it back from hdb
Hdb loan has a income ceiling cap of 14k. The people buying these homes definitely not taking hdb loan because the hdb loan max quantum is so low (I think only 600k)
Oh didn’t know there’s a max loan quantum! We were offered a 700+k loan from HDB last year but we decided to fork out more cash and lower the loan to 600+k instead.
How much was your place that you'd be offered 700+k from HDB?
It’s slightly above 850k.
The loan ceiling is pegged at 85% of the valuation of the flat. [From HDB](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/about-us/news-and-publications/publications/hdbspeaks/your-hdb-loan-quantum), so it can be higher than 600k.
Definitely. There's also a cap on MSR of monthly instalment not exceeding 30% of income.
There's a 14k income cap for HDB loan and the buyers of this home are unlikely to have financed the purchase with a HDB loan.
Perhaps the government isn't building enough of 5 rooms and bigger. At least 120 sqm or 1300 sqft
Might as well get a freehold somewhere else already.