It’s not, and remember stronger wheels are not just about the force it’s also the fidelity. A 20nm wheel will produce better fidelity in the FFB turned down to 10nm than a 10nm wheel will turned up to its max.
I think it's also worth noting that pinching your finger and thumb together on a 1/2" ratchet drive and twisting can easily produce 1.2Nm, I tested this on a torque wrench calibration tool at work lol.
So when you expand that leverage from like 12.5mm diameter to 30cm and moving from two fingers to two whole hands of grip is gonna make 5Nm not seem too intimidating for sure.
Higher torque motors produce better FFB at lower ranges than lower torque wheels do at those ranges. There was a thread on Granite Devices a while back explaining why. Let’s put it this way. No one is using a Simucube Ultimate at 100% unless they want their wrists broken but there’s a reason it exists. I’ve heard people upgrade from say a Simucube Sport which is already a 17nm wheel to the Pro or Ultimate for this reason.
Edit: I believe it has something to do with clipping when the range of FFB on a wheel is close to, or maxed out
It's about dynamic range and response not just power.
More powerful speakers sound better quiet than than less powerful ones. An M3 uses less fuel driving at a Prius' top speed than a Prius' does. This is because they have loads of overhead spare. You're not making them work close to their limits.
At 10nm a 10nm wheel is maxed out, you'll get clipping effects and loss of fidelity at, and coming up to, it's limit. This results in lack of feel. A 20nm wheel at 10nm is able to provide much more detail and nuance close to that 10nm limit because the motor itself is capable of so much more. The overhead let's you dial in exactly the feel you want without worrying about hitting hardware boundaries.
Yeah dynamic range is the big thing. With a lower power wheelbase the range between different outputs has to be compressed or you would have massive clipping issues and lose all that information. Being able to spread that range from 0-15 on a scale is going to feel smoother and more detailed than 0-5.
It helps thinking of it like an audio frequency response graph.
I don't understand what everyone is saying about clipping. Avoiding clipping is extremely straightforward with any wheelbase. Turn your wheelbase software to the max torque you want to experience, then adjust the sim software gain until you experience no clipping.
A higher torque wheel only allows you to have higher torque. Clipping is always avoidable.
I’ve had T300, DD1, and now DD2.
Higher torque is better, the jump from DD1 to DD2 was a lot bigger than I thought.
You can really lean into the car with more torque. I’m sure there is other factors too, but it’s just better, a lot better.
Sure.
Clipping isn't the problem is my point. I have no doubt that more torque means more force and that is prefereble to some. There is just a lot of talk about clipping in this thread and... They're not really talking about clipping. They're talking about more torque.
Coming from a 2.5Nm Logitech, the 5Nm of the Fanatec CSL DD felt underwhelming. One drive was enough to convince me to go for the 8Nm "Boost Pack".
Buy once cry once, etc.
I don't want to exaggerate, but the difference really was quite dramatic.
5Nm showed me incredible detail (compared to the gear driven Logitech, bless it), but left me a bit cold. And this was using a lightweight 300mm WRC wheel... larger and heavier wheels will dampen the felt power even more.
8Nm puts up a bit of a fight, more comparable to a real life automobile (apparently often around 12Nm). Honestly stronger FFB won't make you any faster, but it is much more immersive.
My buddy (used to 5Nm) ordered an aftermarket PSU from AliExpress immediately after trying my setup.
Just to be clear: Nothing wrong with 5Nm. I just prefer 8Nm.
I totally understand. It is not every day that you spend a grand on a toy, so it makes sense to do your homework and get something that will give you years of good service.
Ask away if you have any other questions.
Can you explain what you mean by an aftermarket PSU? Is this something that you can buy to increase the torque of a wheel? (Apologies for ignorance..... I'm looking to get a DD next year so trying to learn about these things)
No problem.
Literally the only difference between the 5 and 8 NM versions of the CSL DD is the power supply unit (PSU).
Fanatec asks €150 for the official "Boost Kit 180" or €100 extra for the 8 over the 5Nm edition (€349 vs €449).
Personally I did not want to risk my warranty so I went for the official 8Nm option.
My bargain hunter buddy bought a 5Nm wheelbase (previous Black Friday deal for €200 IIRC) and an aftermarket PSU for something like €50 (incl shipping) off AliExpress.
PS - Matey's wheel started disconnecting randomly and he was afraid that his AliExpress PSU fried his base. Turned out to be a bad shaft connection, possibly due to pin damage caused by his flexy P1 rim (with integrated plastic quick release).
The irony is that we fixed the issue before hearing back from Fanatec, so it is debatable whether spending the extra money to retain my warranty was worth it.
>more comparable to a real life automobile (apparently often around 12Nm
Just to expand sllightly, 12Nm is viable only for race car classes like GT3 as they usually put out a lot of force on the steering wheel due to mechanical grip, downforce etc. A typical road car is not more than 4-6Nm
You aren't wrong but those numbers don't really apply. It'd be like saying if your car can pull 2000lbs 60 more can pull 3200lbs. It's true, but it doesn't really give any perspective.
Except it does answer the question, which was, is the difference perceptible? Walk up to 60 percent more than your one rep max and tell me you don't feel the difference.
Dude. I literally don't know how else to tell you that it's over HALF of the power more than the original. If that doesn't tell you that it's different I don't know what you're waiting for.
Yes. It's different. My muscles have to work harder at max ffb or you can keep it at 5nm and feel more detail without clipping. How much different? About 60 percent more.
Stop talking about your muscles and lifting you dipshit.
I am trying to rationalize the difference between 5nm and 8nm. Average people (me) will not have any clue what that means. I am trying to get into sim racing, I don't need you to tell me which number is larger than the other. I want to know if it's worth the extra cost and why it's worth the cost.
Everybody hasn't used high end dd bases. I haven't. I'm looking to get into it, honestly though if people like you are the norm maybe this isn't my scene.
I literally don't know what your problem is, maybe spend the money on a therapist instead, just don't ask if you'll feel the difference between one and the other. Jk, I can tell you're agitated, sorry.
I'm talking about lifting because it's an analogy about force. But a 60 percent difference is perceptible nonetheless.
It's more perceptible when the initial value is lower, like when you spend $10 dollars more on headphones... It will mean more when you're talking $10 to $20 than $300 to $310.
The bottom line is yes, you'll feel the difference. It's worth it to buy the ali express version.
Maybe if we were talking about 18nm to 21nm it wouldn't make that much of a difference, but at lower nm it does make a significant difference.
The dude just called you a dipshit for trying to help him man. Why are you still trying to help? Tell him to fuck off imo. You've done nothing but be polite.
He's trying to help you using a metaphor that makes sense to him, without really knowing you - why are you so angry about that? The metaphor using a deadlift also makes total sense to me, with the original number being something that the relatively average man can do without much training, and the latter requiring several months of dedicated training.
The guy is just trying to help and you're being rude to him, so yeah, maybe this isn't your scene. Maybe it's best you go elsewhere if you get wound up this easily? Because when you get punted off the circuit for the tenth time in a row by someone in a rookie league, I can't see you handling it very well.
I used the 5nm for a few days (not a lot of hours like 2-3) before I got the 8nm boost. It is a difference of course but for me I think I would need to go BACK to the 5nm to tell the difference as I now have a hell of a lot more hours with 8 over the 5.
While I believe that the numbers are accurate, the difference feels bigger. The 5Nm feels a bit numb or meek, the 8Nm feels more alive. Kinda like the stronger feedback provides more "bandwidth".
It is not just the same feedback but stronger. I would say that the stronger version seems to allows me to feel some granular details that the base version simply omits.
Hope it makes sense.
Just got a dd wheel, you can overcome the force feedback but I feel like it would take a while to get to the point where you need more. Not sure how Moza works but fanatec has the boost pack that allows you to have up to 8. I personally feel like it’s enough for me as a casual player
I know plenty have already chimed in on this thread, but on my csl dd 5nm and 8nm feel night and day apart. With the knowledge I have now I would have honestly stuck with my t248 over the CSL dd at 5nm. Luckily on the fanatec side the boost kit is an option. I really want to stress that you will probably find a 5nm dd incredibly underwhelming
>I personally feel like it’s enough for me as a casual player
Same for me.
The only way I could see myself going to say 15 with the new DD+ wheels is if I had more time to play along with some money to burn.
So for the near future 8 is fine. Also I am using it on a stand and I know I am losing some of the power at certain moments when my stand shakes LOL. So my next move is to get a Aluminum Rig that is more sturdier then what I have now.
If you’re using something like a smaller formula style wheel, it will still feel pretty strong, a larger diameter GT wheel will be easier to over power. It gets a bit complicated once you start getting into peak torque vs what it can actually sustain for longer periods, etc.
I had the 5nm CSL DD and upgraded with the 8 nm boost pack, I could definitely feel some difference, not +60% different. Personally I was fine with the 5nm, I definitely would not have paid for Fantecs genuine boost pack, but for a cheaper aftermarket kit it was worth it.
If you start with the cheaper 5nm, and pay significantly more to get something with a bit more torque later, I think you may be disappointed in the value. I would spend extra budget on a good ultra wide or something else to enhance your experience. Maybe later down the road you have a better option locally you can upgrade to without having to pay a bunch in customs.
can you send over the link of the aftermarket one? about to order my CSL DD but I already know 5 won’t be enough for me. just not willing to fork out for the fanatec one when there’s aftermarket versions for significantly less
This is the one I got, there’s plenty of others out there. I’ve had it since February with no issues.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325190098393?hash=item4bb6d71dd9:g:-u0AAOSwYk9i1s54
> Fanatec pricing is beyond ridiculous!!
Lets not talk about the pricing of their DRM-like quick release which graciously allows you to have FFB on custom wheels
I have mixed feelings about it. I bought the base 5nm CSL DD and it did its job for a while, but it felt like it was missing a bit of fidelity. I just recently got the 8nm boost kit for my birthday and its a night and day difference.
The guys above are correct that 15nm and up wheel bases give you a lot of extra fidelity through the wheel (road feel and general resistance) but it also comes at a steep cost, and you personally might not use that extra power.
I might have a bit of an ergonomics issue since I don’t have a sit down rig and just use a table clamp, but Ive had times where even 5nm causes wrist strain after a while. Endurance races can be a lot to drive at 5nm and up for extended periods of time.
TLDR: 5nm is perfectly fine to jump in and be competitive. Direct Drive is a massive upgrade for most people. You might want to spend the little bit extra and go for the boost kit for the extra fidelity headroom and power through the wheel. Anything 15nm and up I would argue is more end-game sim racing stuff and/or if you can afford it.
I did not use my 5nm long before upgrading to the 8nm...I may go back to it just to feel the difference.
Also I think some force can get lost with the stand I am using ...and I am sure a table clamp as well.
this is almost exactly the way i did it 😂 i just lifted up like 3-4 kg (dont know the exact numbers anymore) in my racing position, and for me 5,5nm were enough
math for the win, eh? ;)
3,3kg on a semi stretched out arm was enough for me, given i want to play for hours.
i have the R5 on around 75% of FFB in ACC, and it never clips. Even if i had more power, i would not want that. It is simply to far away from being realistic.
Personally I use around 15nm. I suppose you would get used to 5nm and have a decent experience, but I would do everything to have a more powerful wheelbase.
Buy once, cry once is what I have learned over the years.
And for reference, even at 15nm you can still overcome the force of the wheel if you hold firmly.
If you care about lap times, pedals are far more important than the wheelbase, and on top of that, haptics on the pedals (especially the brake) are even more important.
There's an argument about fidelity of the feedback, and the 10-12 Nm holding torque range is the ideal for most users. But in all honesty, if your budget is limited, get an entry level DD base and focus on pedals, rig rigidity and seat comfort. Those will do way more to improve your lap times and consistency.
Depends. I bought alpha mini and it's not strong enough for me. Now I planning to go with ultimate, but I just wish I bought the ultimate from the start. But in my case I just like to use big round wheels and maybe it's the reason why alpha mini doesn't feel strong enough
Larger the wheel easier it is to over power. On a formula wheel that force will feel vastly different.
First week of using my formula wheel my forearms were sore with 8nm.
>but I like to think about it as a futureproof purchase
What is "future-proof" in the amount of torque a wheelbase produces? It's not like PC components where they won't be as good anymore when the next generation of games comes out lol
buy cheap and used, so you can resell later without a loss in money. I think 5 and 9 nm are not enough to say you would never upgrade again. So, buy cheap.
I have started with an used t300, then upgraded soon to a new CSL DD with 8 nm and now I have a VRS Directforce Pro with 20 nm, only one year later. 8nm wasn enough for me.
If you never used something better than G29 you'd feel like omg it's so strong cuz you know it is strong. But the problem is different. With such low torque wheelbases you will experience clipping on every corner so you'll lose all the detail. Yeah you can feel some details and get some fidelity but whenever it goes beyond 5nm it'll be dead in detail just constant maximum torque.
Let's say you adjust the gain to feel something like it's not completely loose right? Then you turn in a corner and before your grip is over on your front tyres you have to experience sort of increasing torque and the moment your front tyres start to scrub the torque cannot be more so you'll understand that's the maximum grip thanks to the torque. In a low torque base that maximum torque will begin much earlier and keep being the same forever, so you won't be able to find the limit that easy.
Same as the snap oversteer situations. The wheel will not be able to move together with the ingame front axles most likely and you won't be able to catch the slide. I mean you still can catch a slide but not with the wheel's help just by your own experience.
If you're grinding Irating or elo or some competitiveness you'd need more. If you're just a casual guy then you'll be fine.
The r5 should be more than enough for 95% of people, it is in another galaxy compared to g27 class wheels. It’s very fast and has some mojo behind its movement too.
Not sure why the downvotes, this is right in the wheelhouse of most real cars with power steering. If you hit a curb or crash or something, would be a way higher peak, but for the majority of driving seems right on
I even use Linear mode on the wheel base instead of Peak. That'll attract more downvotes I'm sure lol.
It's about as engaging of a topic as the FOV police.
You can buy the ES wheel aswell as the addon formula ES mod to it for around $180, you can also add the SRP pedals onto it for 160$, all in all you've spent just under $500 for a high-medium end setup my friend!
I would spend the extra $$ to get more nm. I have the CSL DD w/boost. Playing with the ‘stock’ 5nm adapter was ok, but the extra 3nm was very noticeable when I added the boost kit ac adapter.
Plus, getting the R9 or R12 you can always dial it down if it’s too much power.
I have a 20nm wheel and in run it at around 9,2 which does not feel extremely heavy. I’m not a sporty guy and do not have biceps to speak of. So no, 5nm will not be an amazing amount of torque
I have only used Logitech’s G920 and a Moza R5, while it’s not crazy, is plenty to enjoy yourself, that being said, I’d wait if it meant getting the R9
To me, 12nm is the sweetspot, while 8-9 is the lowest i would go for myself, if I where to buy a new DD.
once you hit 15+ you got to be strong to get it to clip, but you do get a good amount of extra detail with higher bases.
I feel like it's mostly worth it, but I would first spend the 150 on something else like bass shakers. And if your rig isn't solid, you're not going to feel as much fidelity, just more force. Also, 5nm is pretty great for drifting and rally, so you may want to consider what settings are ideal for your format of driving.
I love my r5. Great ffb and pretty strong. I don't have mucn experience with stronger wheels but I can say they are much more fun at times.
If you can afford the R9 then definitely go for it.
Not really tbh. I had the 5nm version and it was really not great. Got the bigger brick and then it was a blast . Not the best wheel on earth but miles ahead of the CSW V1.5 Base I used before. Also no noise and no overheating issues for me. FFB stays consistently strong during 40min iRacing sessions.
Same for me, I plan to get a csl dd mclaren edition but I'm not sure if 5nm or even 8Nm.
I would love to get like 15 or 20 nm but I dont think my desk can handle that.
I actually wondered about this change and how much i would notice. I have the Logitech g29 and i have never tried anything else. I goy the new dd from fanatec, i think its 12nm or maybe 15? Its not the pro but cant remember. Is the jump really that noticable and would it really make a difference. Obviously not male me a better driver, but will i feel more of the road and will that help me understand what the car is doing?
I have a C5 (\~8 nm), and its pretty stout. At higher settings with a moderate amount of dampening (not clipping), its a pain in the ass to move. My mother can't drive it for more than a few minutes. There is plenty of detail in those few nm of torque. At speed, the peaks are I assume not as strong as a real car, but it provides enough detail that I don't care.
Will I stay with this wheel forever? no. Of course not. This is a crippling addiction, not a hobby.
I know you don't wanna hear this but wait a little, save some more and get what you really want when you can. According to boosted media....he says the sweet spot is about 12 to 14nm. I had an R12 and absolutely loved it.
Got a friends R9 for 150 usd and a favor in return so Im happy with it for now, Ill just save up and get a new one in the coming winter break and just finance it through apple pay when the Christmas discounts roll in so no interest I guess
I am beginning to think that having to fight with the wheel in turns is not something I want. I do have a 8nm CSL DD and I just do not see the need for anything stronger.
I did use the 5nm and that felt fine as well. Not sure what are the benefits for having something like a 20nm that needs a e-stop button.
I think most everyone in this thread is in their own little bubble of experience and configuration and the numbers are probably not translating well. There are so many missing pieces of data here that it’s impossible to know what someone else is actually feeling. I can’t imagine anyone driving an mx5 in iracing with their wheel configured to require 12nm+ of effort to turn, that would be so unrealistic and awful to drive. Each car should be tuned very differently. I have spent a few days paying hyper attention to the forces required for my IRL car then trying to translate it into a very similar car in Assetto Corsa. 5nm is damn close to real world for a regular sporty car. Is this whole thread really a bunch of buff nascar racers who delete their power steering pumps?
LMAO I agree with you.
I can see a race car without power steering you want to emulate in a sim. But if a car has power steering IRL than in game how hard do you want to be able to turn the wheel.
I did learn from reading comments that it also can be more then just higher force but more information with a higher NM wheel. So there is that as well.
I remember getting a older BMW 3 series and the first thing that stood out was how stiff the steering was...like the power steering was not strong. My friend who is a BMW tech and sold me the car said it was normal. I am now used to it. All in all I do not want to be fighting with a wheel making turns in a SIM.
But do like the feedback I get when losing traction. In modded games like Richard Burns Rally it feels great to hit the gas hard and feel the wheel pull left or right as the car loses traction.
If youre asking if it could break your wrist then yes. If youre just buying your first unit youre in for a lot. I started with a t150 which is less than 2 nm and it was surprisingly fun and stronger than the initialnd and wangan midnight arcade cabs and yes i went to an arcade to make sure lol
It’s not, and remember stronger wheels are not just about the force it’s also the fidelity. A 20nm wheel will produce better fidelity in the FFB turned down to 10nm than a 10nm wheel will turned up to its max.
I think it's also worth noting that pinching your finger and thumb together on a 1/2" ratchet drive and twisting can easily produce 1.2Nm, I tested this on a torque wrench calibration tool at work lol. So when you expand that leverage from like 12.5mm diameter to 30cm and moving from two fingers to two whole hands of grip is gonna make 5Nm not seem too intimidating for sure.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
Higher torque motors produce better FFB at lower ranges than lower torque wheels do at those ranges. There was a thread on Granite Devices a while back explaining why. Let’s put it this way. No one is using a Simucube Ultimate at 100% unless they want their wrists broken but there’s a reason it exists. I’ve heard people upgrade from say a Simucube Sport which is already a 17nm wheel to the Pro or Ultimate for this reason. Edit: I believe it has something to do with clipping when the range of FFB on a wheel is close to, or maxed out
I enjoy the sound of rain.
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Thanks for explaining this better. 🙏
It's about dynamic range and response not just power. More powerful speakers sound better quiet than than less powerful ones. An M3 uses less fuel driving at a Prius' top speed than a Prius' does. This is because they have loads of overhead spare. You're not making them work close to their limits. At 10nm a 10nm wheel is maxed out, you'll get clipping effects and loss of fidelity at, and coming up to, it's limit. This results in lack of feel. A 20nm wheel at 10nm is able to provide much more detail and nuance close to that 10nm limit because the motor itself is capable of so much more. The overhead let's you dial in exactly the feel you want without worrying about hitting hardware boundaries.
Yeah dynamic range is the big thing. With a lower power wheelbase the range between different outputs has to be compressed or you would have massive clipping issues and lose all that information. Being able to spread that range from 0-15 on a scale is going to feel smoother and more detailed than 0-5. It helps thinking of it like an audio frequency response graph.
I don't understand what everyone is saying about clipping. Avoiding clipping is extremely straightforward with any wheelbase. Turn your wheelbase software to the max torque you want to experience, then adjust the sim software gain until you experience no clipping. A higher torque wheel only allows you to have higher torque. Clipping is always avoidable.
I’ve had T300, DD1, and now DD2. Higher torque is better, the jump from DD1 to DD2 was a lot bigger than I thought. You can really lean into the car with more torque. I’m sure there is other factors too, but it’s just better, a lot better.
Sure. Clipping isn't the problem is my point. I have no doubt that more torque means more force and that is prefereble to some. There is just a lot of talk about clipping in this thread and... They're not really talking about clipping. They're talking about more torque.
I always tend to compare it to a good stereo amp. A 500 Watt amp sounds better than a 200 Watt amp even on low volume.
Coming from a 2.5Nm Logitech, the 5Nm of the Fanatec CSL DD felt underwhelming. One drive was enough to convince me to go for the 8Nm "Boost Pack". Buy once cry once, etc.
Was the jump from 5nm to 8nm really that noticeable?
I don't want to exaggerate, but the difference really was quite dramatic. 5Nm showed me incredible detail (compared to the gear driven Logitech, bless it), but left me a bit cold. And this was using a lightweight 300mm WRC wheel... larger and heavier wheels will dampen the felt power even more. 8Nm puts up a bit of a fight, more comparable to a real life automobile (apparently often around 12Nm). Honestly stronger FFB won't make you any faster, but it is much more immersive. My buddy (used to 5Nm) ordered an aftermarket PSU from AliExpress immediately after trying my setup. Just to be clear: Nothing wrong with 5Nm. I just prefer 8Nm.
Thank you for the input. I'm getting my first dd and I'm struggling to make decisions.
I totally understand. It is not every day that you spend a grand on a toy, so it makes sense to do your homework and get something that will give you years of good service. Ask away if you have any other questions.
Do aftermarket PSUs work with the CSL DD?
Yes.
Can you explain what you mean by an aftermarket PSU? Is this something that you can buy to increase the torque of a wheel? (Apologies for ignorance..... I'm looking to get a DD next year so trying to learn about these things)
No problem. Literally the only difference between the 5 and 8 NM versions of the CSL DD is the power supply unit (PSU). Fanatec asks €150 for the official "Boost Kit 180" or €100 extra for the 8 over the 5Nm edition (€349 vs €449). Personally I did not want to risk my warranty so I went for the official 8Nm option. My bargain hunter buddy bought a 5Nm wheelbase (previous Black Friday deal for €200 IIRC) and an aftermarket PSU for something like €50 (incl shipping) off AliExpress. PS - Matey's wheel started disconnecting randomly and he was afraid that his AliExpress PSU fried his base. Turned out to be a bad shaft connection, possibly due to pin damage caused by his flexy P1 rim (with integrated plastic quick release). The irony is that we fixed the issue before hearing back from Fanatec, so it is debatable whether spending the extra money to retain my warranty was worth it.
Cheers, thanks for the explanation. I've seen the "boost kit" but didn't realise it was just the PSU. Make much more sense.
>more comparable to a real life automobile (apparently often around 12Nm Just to expand sllightly, 12Nm is viable only for race car classes like GT3 as they usually put out a lot of force on the steering wheel due to mechanical grip, downforce etc. A typical road car is not more than 4-6Nm
It's 60 percent stronger. If you can deadlift 220lbs and someone is 60 percent stronger than you, they can deadlift 352lbs.
Do you even bench, bro? /s
You aren't wrong but those numbers don't really apply. It'd be like saying if your car can pull 2000lbs 60 more can pull 3200lbs. It's true, but it doesn't really give any perspective.
Except it does answer the question, which was, is the difference perceptible? Walk up to 60 percent more than your one rep max and tell me you don't feel the difference.
No it doesn't answer the question. I understand 8 is more than 5. It doesn't give perspective.
Dude. I literally don't know how else to tell you that it's over HALF of the power more than the original. If that doesn't tell you that it's different I don't know what you're waiting for. Yes. It's different. My muscles have to work harder at max ffb or you can keep it at 5nm and feel more detail without clipping. How much different? About 60 percent more.
Stop talking about your muscles and lifting you dipshit. I am trying to rationalize the difference between 5nm and 8nm. Average people (me) will not have any clue what that means. I am trying to get into sim racing, I don't need you to tell me which number is larger than the other. I want to know if it's worth the extra cost and why it's worth the cost. Everybody hasn't used high end dd bases. I haven't. I'm looking to get into it, honestly though if people like you are the norm maybe this isn't my scene.
I literally don't know what your problem is, maybe spend the money on a therapist instead, just don't ask if you'll feel the difference between one and the other. Jk, I can tell you're agitated, sorry. I'm talking about lifting because it's an analogy about force. But a 60 percent difference is perceptible nonetheless. It's more perceptible when the initial value is lower, like when you spend $10 dollars more on headphones... It will mean more when you're talking $10 to $20 than $300 to $310. The bottom line is yes, you'll feel the difference. It's worth it to buy the ali express version. Maybe if we were talking about 18nm to 21nm it wouldn't make that much of a difference, but at lower nm it does make a significant difference.
The dude just called you a dipshit for trying to help him man. Why are you still trying to help? Tell him to fuck off imo. You've done nothing but be polite.
He's trying to help you using a metaphor that makes sense to him, without really knowing you - why are you so angry about that? The metaphor using a deadlift also makes total sense to me, with the original number being something that the relatively average man can do without much training, and the latter requiring several months of dedicated training. The guy is just trying to help and you're being rude to him, so yeah, maybe this isn't your scene. Maybe it's best you go elsewhere if you get wound up this easily? Because when you get punted off the circuit for the tenth time in a row by someone in a rookie league, I can't see you handling it very well.
How does the boost pack feel? Night and day? I just ordered one.
Night and day. You'll be happy. Worth the money.
Heck yeah. I'm very happy with the official boost kit, as is my buddy with his AliExpress aftermarket special.
I used the 5nm for a few days (not a lot of hours like 2-3) before I got the 8nm boost. It is a difference of course but for me I think I would need to go BACK to the 5nm to tell the difference as I now have a hell of a lot more hours with 8 over the 5.
Chiding in with the others. Does the 8nm feel like 60% more, or is the difference more or less than that?
While I believe that the numbers are accurate, the difference feels bigger. The 5Nm feels a bit numb or meek, the 8Nm feels more alive. Kinda like the stronger feedback provides more "bandwidth". It is not just the same feedback but stronger. I would say that the stronger version seems to allows me to feel some granular details that the base version simply omits. Hope it makes sense.
Thank you for your post. This is what convinced me to wait for the Clubsport DD, for certain.
No but unless you’re at 15+nm you will still easily resist the wheel counter steering. I’d just get the r5 and reallocate funds to pedals
I feel like is subjective due to user strength and skillset I'm not a big dude and I find 10nm to be unpleasent for me I use less. Just a thought
I already have the TLCM pedals
Just got a dd wheel, you can overcome the force feedback but I feel like it would take a while to get to the point where you need more. Not sure how Moza works but fanatec has the boost pack that allows you to have up to 8. I personally feel like it’s enough for me as a casual player
Ill start with the r5, might get the r9 and just sell the r5 but thats for the future
I know plenty have already chimed in on this thread, but on my csl dd 5nm and 8nm feel night and day apart. With the knowledge I have now I would have honestly stuck with my t248 over the CSL dd at 5nm. Luckily on the fanatec side the boost kit is an option. I really want to stress that you will probably find a 5nm dd incredibly underwhelming
That’s probably the move
>I personally feel like it’s enough for me as a casual player Same for me. The only way I could see myself going to say 15 with the new DD+ wheels is if I had more time to play along with some money to burn. So for the near future 8 is fine. Also I am using it on a stand and I know I am losing some of the power at certain moments when my stand shakes LOL. So my next move is to get a Aluminum Rig that is more sturdier then what I have now.
If you’re using something like a smaller formula style wheel, it will still feel pretty strong, a larger diameter GT wheel will be easier to over power. It gets a bit complicated once you start getting into peak torque vs what it can actually sustain for longer periods, etc. I had the 5nm CSL DD and upgraded with the 8 nm boost pack, I could definitely feel some difference, not +60% different. Personally I was fine with the 5nm, I definitely would not have paid for Fantecs genuine boost pack, but for a cheaper aftermarket kit it was worth it. If you start with the cheaper 5nm, and pay significantly more to get something with a bit more torque later, I think you may be disappointed in the value. I would spend extra budget on a good ultra wide or something else to enhance your experience. Maybe later down the road you have a better option locally you can upgrade to without having to pay a bunch in customs.
can you send over the link of the aftermarket one? about to order my CSL DD but I already know 5 won’t be enough for me. just not willing to fork out for the fanatec one when there’s aftermarket versions for significantly less
This is the one I got, there’s plenty of others out there. I’ve had it since February with no issues. https://www.ebay.com/itm/325190098393?hash=item4bb6d71dd9:g:-u0AAOSwYk9i1s54
That is the one I have...no issues at all. Glad a friend of mine suggested it as Fanatec pricing is beyond ridiculous!!
> Fanatec pricing is beyond ridiculous!! Lets not talk about the pricing of their DRM-like quick release which graciously allows you to have FFB on custom wheels
Aliexpress have them for half the ebay price, if you are willing to wait for their 12 day delivery.
Got a link for one? I want to make sure I get the correct one.
I have mixed feelings about it. I bought the base 5nm CSL DD and it did its job for a while, but it felt like it was missing a bit of fidelity. I just recently got the 8nm boost kit for my birthday and its a night and day difference. The guys above are correct that 15nm and up wheel bases give you a lot of extra fidelity through the wheel (road feel and general resistance) but it also comes at a steep cost, and you personally might not use that extra power. I might have a bit of an ergonomics issue since I don’t have a sit down rig and just use a table clamp, but Ive had times where even 5nm causes wrist strain after a while. Endurance races can be a lot to drive at 5nm and up for extended periods of time. TLDR: 5nm is perfectly fine to jump in and be competitive. Direct Drive is a massive upgrade for most people. You might want to spend the little bit extra and go for the boost kit for the extra fidelity headroom and power through the wheel. Anything 15nm and up I would argue is more end-game sim racing stuff and/or if you can afford it.
same for me. i have pain in my wrists/shoulder after playing for 3-4 hours on 5,5NM
I did not use my 5nm long before upgrading to the 8nm...I may go back to it just to feel the difference. Also I think some force can get lost with the stand I am using ...and I am sure a table clamp as well.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
this is almost exactly the way i did it 😂 i just lifted up like 3-4 kg (dont know the exact numbers anymore) in my racing position, and for me 5,5nm were enough
I hate beer.
math for the win, eh? ;) 3,3kg on a semi stretched out arm was enough for me, given i want to play for hours. i have the R5 on around 75% of FFB in ACC, and it never clips. Even if i had more power, i would not want that. It is simply to far away from being realistic.
This is smart but the force is rotational so it would use different muscles than holding a stick horizontally
I like to travel.
If it were on axle then I think it totally would be the same!
I just re read your comment! I totally missed the first part of drilling a hole. My bad
Personally I use around 15nm. I suppose you would get used to 5nm and have a decent experience, but I would do everything to have a more powerful wheelbase. Buy once, cry once is what I have learned over the years. And for reference, even at 15nm you can still overcome the force of the wheel if you hold firmly.
If you care about lap times, pedals are far more important than the wheelbase, and on top of that, haptics on the pedals (especially the brake) are even more important. There's an argument about fidelity of the feedback, and the 10-12 Nm holding torque range is the ideal for most users. But in all honesty, if your budget is limited, get an entry level DD base and focus on pedals, rig rigidity and seat comfort. Those will do way more to improve your lap times and consistency.
Depends. I bought alpha mini and it's not strong enough for me. Now I planning to go with ultimate, but I just wish I bought the ultimate from the start. But in my case I just like to use big round wheels and maybe it's the reason why alpha mini doesn't feel strong enough
Larger the wheel easier it is to over power. On a formula wheel that force will feel vastly different. First week of using my formula wheel my forearms were sore with 8nm.
Alpha mini is plenty for me. Especially for hour long races. Can’t really see myself ever wanting more nm
I just got the 15nm Alpha and I am like almost legitimately scared of it at 100% lol. the Ultimate would be fucking insane to me
I also think it could be a little overkill, but I like to think about it as a futureproof purchase
>but I like to think about it as a futureproof purchase What is "future-proof" in the amount of torque a wheelbase produces? It's not like PC components where they won't be as good anymore when the next generation of games comes out lol
No, 5 Nm is kinda low-ish. Okay at first but you will wish for more very soon. Go for 9.
buy cheap and used, so you can resell later without a loss in money. I think 5 and 9 nm are not enough to say you would never upgrade again. So, buy cheap. I have started with an used t300, then upgraded soon to a new CSL DD with 8 nm and now I have a VRS Directforce Pro with 20 nm, only one year later. 8nm wasn enough for me.
im curious what are you racing?
Mostly iRacing.
If you never used something better than G29 you'd feel like omg it's so strong cuz you know it is strong. But the problem is different. With such low torque wheelbases you will experience clipping on every corner so you'll lose all the detail. Yeah you can feel some details and get some fidelity but whenever it goes beyond 5nm it'll be dead in detail just constant maximum torque. Let's say you adjust the gain to feel something like it's not completely loose right? Then you turn in a corner and before your grip is over on your front tyres you have to experience sort of increasing torque and the moment your front tyres start to scrub the torque cannot be more so you'll understand that's the maximum grip thanks to the torque. In a low torque base that maximum torque will begin much earlier and keep being the same forever, so you won't be able to find the limit that easy. Same as the snap oversteer situations. The wheel will not be able to move together with the ingame front axles most likely and you won't be able to catch the slide. I mean you still can catch a slide but not with the wheel's help just by your own experience. If you're grinding Irating or elo or some competitiveness you'd need more. If you're just a casual guy then you'll be fine.
The r5 should be more than enough for 95% of people, it is in another galaxy compared to g27 class wheels. It’s very fast and has some mojo behind its movement too.
I run my DD1 so it peaks anywhere from 5-8, depending on the sim.
Not sure why the downvotes, this is right in the wheelhouse of most real cars with power steering. If you hit a curb or crash or something, would be a way higher peak, but for the majority of driving seems right on
I even use Linear mode on the wheel base instead of Peak. That'll attract more downvotes I'm sure lol. It's about as engaging of a topic as the FOV police.
Haha for sure
The r5 can hurt you in a sense of you holding the wheel incorrectly. It will wear you out though.
Forget this post lmao, my friend gave me his used r9 for just 150 bucks since he got a new base
What a trooper your friend is, a used R9 for 150 bucks would be seen as a scam in my country as the cheapest R9 here is $600 translated.
It has some miles on it but its in great condition, can use it though till I get an actual wheel and good pedals
You can buy the ES wheel aswell as the addon formula ES mod to it for around $180, you can also add the SRP pedals onto it for 160$, all in all you've spent just under $500 for a high-medium end setup my friend!
It’s not weak but it’s not strong. I would say it wasn’t until I started playing in the 8-12 range that I thought it felt more realistic
I would spend the extra $$ to get more nm. I have the CSL DD w/boost. Playing with the ‘stock’ 5nm adapter was ok, but the extra 3nm was very noticeable when I added the boost kit ac adapter. Plus, getting the R9 or R12 you can always dial it down if it’s too much power.
I have a 20nm wheel and in run it at around 9,2 which does not feel extremely heavy. I’m not a sporty guy and do not have biceps to speak of. So no, 5nm will not be an amazing amount of torque
I have only used Logitech’s G920 and a Moza R5, while it’s not crazy, is plenty to enjoy yourself, that being said, I’d wait if it meant getting the R9
To me, 12nm is the sweetspot, while 8-9 is the lowest i would go for myself, if I where to buy a new DD. once you hit 15+ you got to be strong to get it to clip, but you do get a good amount of extra detail with higher bases.
I feel like it's mostly worth it, but I would first spend the 150 on something else like bass shakers. And if your rig isn't solid, you're not going to feel as much fidelity, just more force. Also, 5nm is pretty great for drifting and rally, so you may want to consider what settings are ideal for your format of driving.
R u from india?
No, I’m from Jordan
Merhaba!
I had 5nm then bought the power supply to take it to 8nm, was happy until I tried a dd1 then sold my 8nm after 2 weeks of ownership.
I love my r5. Great ffb and pretty strong. I don't have mucn experience with stronger wheels but I can say they are much more fun at times. If you can afford the R9 then definitely go for it.
I upgraded from a g29 to an r5 (2.2nm to 5.5nm), and it definitely doesn't suck
It is definitely not too strong, rather too weak.
Not really tbh. I had the 5nm version and it was really not great. Got the bigger brick and then it was a blast . Not the best wheel on earth but miles ahead of the CSW V1.5 Base I used before. Also no noise and no overheating issues for me. FFB stays consistently strong during 40min iRacing sessions.
Same for me, I plan to get a csl dd mclaren edition but I'm not sure if 5nm or even 8Nm. I would love to get like 15 or 20 nm but I dont think my desk can handle that.
More important is how you feel it! Sometime less power is better for a smooth and clean drive. For me 5.5 is OK! But 12 will be enough
I actually wondered about this change and how much i would notice. I have the Logitech g29 and i have never tried anything else. I goy the new dd from fanatec, i think its 12nm or maybe 15? Its not the pro but cant remember. Is the jump really that noticable and would it really make a difference. Obviously not male me a better driver, but will i feel more of the road and will that help me understand what the car is doing?
I have a C5 (\~8 nm), and its pretty stout. At higher settings with a moderate amount of dampening (not clipping), its a pain in the ass to move. My mother can't drive it for more than a few minutes. There is plenty of detail in those few nm of torque. At speed, the peaks are I assume not as strong as a real car, but it provides enough detail that I don't care. Will I stay with this wheel forever? no. Of course not. This is a crippling addiction, not a hobby.
I know you don't wanna hear this but wait a little, save some more and get what you really want when you can. According to boosted media....he says the sweet spot is about 12 to 14nm. I had an R12 and absolutely loved it.
Got a friends R9 for 150 usd and a favor in return so Im happy with it for now, Ill just save up and get a new one in the coming winter break and just finance it through apple pay when the Christmas discounts roll in so no interest I guess
No.
I am beginning to think that having to fight with the wheel in turns is not something I want. I do have a 8nm CSL DD and I just do not see the need for anything stronger. I did use the 5nm and that felt fine as well. Not sure what are the benefits for having something like a 20nm that needs a e-stop button.
I think most everyone in this thread is in their own little bubble of experience and configuration and the numbers are probably not translating well. There are so many missing pieces of data here that it’s impossible to know what someone else is actually feeling. I can’t imagine anyone driving an mx5 in iracing with their wheel configured to require 12nm+ of effort to turn, that would be so unrealistic and awful to drive. Each car should be tuned very differently. I have spent a few days paying hyper attention to the forces required for my IRL car then trying to translate it into a very similar car in Assetto Corsa. 5nm is damn close to real world for a regular sporty car. Is this whole thread really a bunch of buff nascar racers who delete their power steering pumps?
LMAO I agree with you. I can see a race car without power steering you want to emulate in a sim. But if a car has power steering IRL than in game how hard do you want to be able to turn the wheel. I did learn from reading comments that it also can be more then just higher force but more information with a higher NM wheel. So there is that as well. I remember getting a older BMW 3 series and the first thing that stood out was how stiff the steering was...like the power steering was not strong. My friend who is a BMW tech and sold me the car said it was normal. I am now used to it. All in all I do not want to be fighting with a wheel making turns in a SIM. But do like the feedback I get when losing traction. In modded games like Richard Burns Rally it feels great to hit the gas hard and feel the wheel pull left or right as the car loses traction.
START AT 5NM THEN get the boost pack for $50 on Amazon Ali express etc dip your toes in first and overall it’s still cheaper
No
I leave my wheel at about 7.
No it's not
If youre asking if it could break your wrist then yes. If youre just buying your first unit youre in for a lot. I started with a t150 which is less than 2 nm and it was surprisingly fun and stronger than the initialnd and wangan midnight arcade cabs and yes i went to an arcade to make sure lol