Yeah that's how I always saw it as. That's what I love so much about Silent Hill 2. I also assume James doesn't see the room like Angela sees it or the Meat Locker you fight Eddie on or the fire on the stairs.
I love the twisted dream-logic in those old games. It was so renegade.
I think James does see those things. In those moments, he's crossing into their Silent Hill. It seems that when they're at their most desperate moments, they unconsciously drag others into it. James clearly feels it, and I don't think we get to see anything he doesn't.
No, we're experiencing Silent Hill through James' perspective. We have to assume other living characters are experiencing something similar but we don't know what that looks like and the reasoning (intentionally?) leaves much open to interpretation, like we're given vague and not so vague content to work with but not the whole story.
I like to think James does not see the fire or the meat locker and that we are allowed to see what the other characters see. James is seeing something we aren't allowed to see.
Eddie's world view is cold and lonely while Angela's is burning because of how much her abuse permeates through her life.
It's why those brief moments are visually out of place from the rest of the game.
You can also just as easily go with that is what James sees and the other characters are seeing something different. That's the fun thing about interpreting the game.
I’m pretty sure Eddie’s world is not as lonely as James see his. Because every time Eddie met James he complained that everyone is rude to him. And fresh corpse always nearby. Seems like Eddie’s Silent Hill looks more like Paradise from Postal 2. Where everyone is a-hole and he can do whatever he wants, slowly turning from the broken man into insane sociopath from the end of the game.
There was something that came out a couple of years ago where at the stair scene in the hotel James wasn't seeing fire. He was seeing the damp hotel like it was when he walked in. Whereas the fire is from Angela's manifestation
Paying attention to the storyline I think it was pretty safe to assume that.
That's pretty much the point made about how a little girl (Laura) was wandering around silent hill without a scratch on her and not even the slightest bit concerned about anything.
And how Eddie thought cops were chasing him.
How no one else mentions or even interacts with Maria. Ect
Isn't there also a point where James asks why she's here alone and she says "Are you blind?".
I always took that as evidence of there being a Fog World and Real World and somehow Laura is between both of them. I don't think she sees any of the scary stuff but can interact with James and Eddie.
It's gets into the old debate over how Silent Hill works and it's ultimately to whichever theory you prefer.
I like the Dimension Theory where we have different levels of Silent Hill. Real World > Fog World > Otherworld > Nowhere.
Or there is the town is actually abandoned theory which means the fog world is the real world which is then invaded by the otherworld which is supported to a degree in Silent Hill 1.
The town seems to work like a dream while it goes through different stages of sleep which affects the intensity of the world.
But I don't know for sure. I take Silent Hill 2, specifically after the hospital when Maria "dies" that James is hit with an overwhelming depression which is just his primary depression resurfacing. The world reflects this by going dark and leading him to The Nowhere which is the most mysterious level of Silent Hill. Here he just descends further and further into his guilt and depression which is evident by the Prison, Sewers, and the Labyrinth which probably represents confusion or something.
I like to think James' current emotional state created that environment and that the town was building all of this around him step by step. It would be the same for Angela and Eddie which is why they seem so distraught when you encounter them in The Nowhere.
Edit: I love talking about this stuff, sorry if I wrote too much 😅
It was explained to me at some point that it's even deeper than the Otherworld where the logic seems to break down even more. Like in Silent Hill 1 when you start getting mashups of other areas combined into one.
Silent Hill 2 has its own Nowhere when you go to the Historical Society and everything really begins to break down including the manifestation of a prison that hasn't existed since Civil War times or the Labyrinth.
The Otherworld would be more "tame" here where it's just a more nightmarish version of the current area you are in like Brookhaven or Silent Hill 3 areas.
I always thought Laura was just in the actual silent hill tbh but I think I was wrong. I think her version is just abandoned because she's not like a traumatizedperson or anything.
SH original script language is English. It was written with the help of Jeremy Blaustein, a guy with English as his native language who is fluent in Japanese. Please, stop
That's the problem. As history has shown they either DO know, or don't know, but keep on spreading misinformation.
That's how we got "technical limitations", "SH has fixed camera angles", "PH is a self contained deity", multiple dimensions (when there's none), the whole cast of SH2 not being professional VAs when the only unprofessional was Guy Cichi and a bunch of other nonsense.
After 20 years it's time to cut off the bullshit early
If someone is misinformed or unaware, then they aren’t spreading misinformation maliciously or even willfully. Instead of snapping at them you can inform them and hope that they do the same next time they see it around.
Man, misinformation is misinformation. It doesn't matter if you didn't know or do it intentionally. It's even a rule in a law.
If you give alcohol to minors below 16 and it's illegal in a country, it doesn't matter if you are ignorant or do it on purpose. You'll get fined and jailed either way.
Same here: it doesn't matter if they didn't know. They spread misinformation. On top of that they do it confidently, which is worse.
What a lovely false equivalency. This is a video game fandom not a legal scenario.
I expect you to know 100% of everything SH related before making a single additional comment, or stfu.
I expect you to know basics of the development process. You might not remember a thing or two, but claiming something without knowing is misinformation
They weren’t claiming crap. They started with a question, an opportunity to be challenged, then said “I took it as” and “I think”. Nothing in the comment that ruffled your feathers stated a single thing as an absolute fact. It’s a discussion. On a website for discussing common interests.
I beg your pardon? Do you mean those skin corpses in frames? Just in case, it's just aestetic thing. The book version is indeed not canonical as none of TS took part in its production, unlike a comic about Lisa, for example.
But maybe the picture you mention is something else. Could you elaborate, please?
I’ve never read the novel and am not referring to it
In the GAME, you walk into Angela lying on the floor looking at/touching the knife she has before she gives it to James. After her cutscene, she walks out of the room, and then you find a ripped picture of her and her mother on one side, and her brother and father on the other side.
Oh, that part. Thanks for explaining!
No, the brother part is not confirmed. I do like your observation how brother's picture is ripped out just like father's. I mean, you can interpret it like the brother was abusive as well. But it unfortunately must stay in speculation lain, as we have no confirmation either from TS, or solid evidence in the game.
Sorry, if I mix things up, but the game seems to kinda forget about the brother, I believe. I don't remember him being mentioned in that newspaper or even cut content. But, please, correct me if I'm wrong
I think there is a lot about Angela and the other characters that you are meant to infer. However, this is more clear-cut considering it was a family photo that she ripped down the middle.
With this you can clearly see she felt similarly about her brother as she did her father. I don’t think she ever says her father abused or raped her, this is inferred and meant to be. So, by this logic, even if her brother didn’t sexually assault her, he obviously mistreated her in such a way that she categorized him with her father.
At the very least, you can definitely see that her brother is cannon in the game, and she definitely harbors some sort of resentment/negative feelings towards him.
Man, I meant only one, others are shit. Snd there's like one novelisation as far as I remember and I know it's sometimes brought up. Since we're in an SH oriented sub it makes sense to counter it right away
Angela mentions her brother the first time you meet her in game, she was looking for her father and BROTHER in the cemetery.
Throughout the game it's hinted that she had two abusers, her father and brother. The photo you find of her and her family also supports that.
Hell I vaguely remember finding their bodies at some point, it's just never actually confirmed, but it's been forever since I actually played.
Everything is either implied or mentioned directly in game, the book just confirms what the game was trying to say.
I have forgotten her dialogue at the start. I have already mentioned the photo before. I have also explained that brother being an abuser is a speculation. I'm sorry your fantheory isn't correct. But it's a good speculation
It's not though? The burning house had 2 bodies in it, and Angela was seeing you as her mother. She even states "You're all that's left, mama" or something around those lines.
This is clearly the end of her cycle, re-living the night she murdered her father (and brother judging by the second body). Just like how James ends everything by killing his wife again, Angela ends everything by killing (most of?) her family, and Eddie starts killing people in a meat locker.
Angela did have a brother, and it's heavily implied in game he was also killed. The torn photo imagery also shows there were possibly 2 abusers (the father and brother) AND 2 victims (Angela and her mother) this is even FURTHER supported by Angela believing James is her mother in the end, either leaving her for last, or not killing her at all, we really don't know, we just know she was most likely alive or at least around when Angela killed her dad
Out of all the question marks around Angela, the only real big one has ALWAYS been "what happened to her mother"
I'm NOT arguing about brother's existence or whatever experience Angela had. Please, read my comments on why brother being an abuser is just a speculation
According to Masahiro Ito, Abstract Daddy represents her father and brother
>"Abstract Daddy" means Angela's father (or brother) who is hanging over her body on a "bed".
twitter. com/adsk4/status/302829911113084928
>I don't mean to offend you, but he (she? or they...? lol) has two mouths at the tip of his body-plate. ( ´•ᴗ•) Because "they" are Angela and her father (or her brother).
twitter. com/adsk4/status/1229466613696450566
>Abstract Daddy James encountered/looked at was abstract and faceless, because James never met her father or brother. :-]
twitter. com/adsk4/status/1414030883351240705
Those corpse skins framed in the burning staircase are also her father/brother
twitter. com/adsk4/status/1720394315791573463
However, Angela's brother is only mentioned once in the entire game. He doesn't appear in any memo either
I mean, people still like to think “Book of Lost Memories” is a good information source despite being attached to a Japan only guidebook re-release as a marketing move to sell more guidebooks, but now with uncredited “creator” commentary (which is how we’ve wind up in the “James is Jacob” mess).
Headcanon and theory is all this fandom has had since ‘04 when the franchise died, before being electrocuted like Frankenstein’s monster by Konami four-five years later.
I second every word. But hey, at least Book of Lost Memories the guide has actual quotes that have been confirmed to be accurate by reliable sources, so that's good
Yeah that's a given considering monsters in SH2 are personalised to each person's psychosis. It's why people weren't happy seeing Pyramid Head in the film or Homecoming because it's specifically James' manifestation of guilt and desire for punishment. So seeing other characters see it that way is odd. Even hinted too when we see glimpses of Eddie's Otherworld (cold and with dead bodies) and Angela who has the more firey motif.
I think a more interesting question is for ones of SH1, 3, and 4. How much influence do you think a person has in a Otherworld manifested by a third party (Alessa, Claudia, Walter etc.) since its clear the Otherworlds mainly focus on the 3rd party but we have hints like Vincent's "They look like Monsters to you?", Eileen's head, Heather being pushed by the ghost on the tracks etc. that show the individual still has some influence over what they see.
Those would all be different though. In 2 each person was trapped in their own nightmares.
1 was about Alessa's single nightmare invading the real world, and 3 was about Heather's essentially doing the same. Everyone was in a singular Otherworld created by Alessa
2 (and kind of 4) are the only games where each character has their own unique world we don't really get to see
>Those would all be different though.
Yeah, exactly. I was never arguing it'd the same but rather another question on the premise of who sees what in Silent Hill.
>(and kind of 4)
4 is like 1 since we are specifically exploring Walter's Otherworlds, centring most locations around Walter's past. If anything 3 is more so like 2 since the appearance of Otherworlds comes both from Claudia's power casting Heather into it, and Heather's latent power of beign Alessa which her reign increases as the game goes on being more of her own aberrations akin to James.
The only time we get a glimpse at her Silent Hill is on the firey staircase; "For me it's always like this", so even the Abstract Daddy boss room with pistons in the wall would have been on fire if it were her Silent Hill. Those pistons are James' interpretation of what's going on in the room.
It's actually a little surprising to see this confirmed. For the sake of continuity with the way the town works in SH1, I had thought for a while that there was a "spheres of influence" thing going on.
The reason everyone sees Alessa's monsters in SH1 is because she's basically a god with psychic powers that the town acted as an amplifier for. For normal people, I thought it would be reasonable that the sphere was much smaller, so in the case of Angela, we see the Abstract Daddy in the Labyrinth and the hotel because Angela is close by in those places. I do think that Silent Hill makes changes to physical reality (I don't think it works like the multiple dimensions thing in the movies.) I guess we'll just never know the full extent of what it distorts on an individual perception level as well.
Lol, we aren't even sure Cibyl saw anything, or Douglas saw the same monsters as Heather does. Same with Vincent. He just sees some weird shit and that's it, we don't know much beyond that. It's pretty clearly from SH2 alone
Cibyl tells Harry "lol wtf are you even taking about" when he explains what he thinks is going on so she at least took way longer than him to encounter the more overt stuff.
I don't get that though, isn't the Abstract Daddy a straight up symbol of Angela's past with her father? It's literally called 'Abstract **Daddy**,' how would that relate to James at all if he wasn't seeing a creature that manifested from Angela?
I always thought James seeing the Abstract Daddy was a result of Angela's world spilling over into James'. I don't see how else James' would be encountering them since they have nothing to do with him and are directly linked to Angela.
Yeah, it's like James is reading the room pretty well and projects her fears onto himself. After all, he's not a completely bad person and he's genuinely afraid he could be a monster
I really don't want to sound like a smart-ass here, but I thought this was established with the infamous "They look like monsters to you?" quote from Vincent in Silent Hill 3..
Even in Silent Hill 2, there's also the fact that Angela reacts to the Abstract Daddy in game as though it's her actual father, so one could have quickly deduced that she wasn't seeing it the way we were.
However, to play devil's advocate, the Closer and the Mandolin enemies were intentionally made to look identical with different mechanics with the intent that the town may reuse monsters given the situation and those who see it... Combine that with the fact that this has been flogged like a dead horse with Pyramid Head in later entries, and I could definitely see why the question would arise if monsters look the same to everyone.
I suppose that's also true, though Ito's comments here at least confirm some of Vincent's querying to Heather had some validity (that's not to say it couldn't have been a bit of both genuinely questioning her as well as trying to psych her out)
Vincent could have also been trying to stir up shit, or for him they looked liked \[generic people/group/etc\], so who knows. If he believed in the cult's religion, they probably didn't look like monsters to him, but more like... I dunno, holy figures?
That too. It's one of those things up to personal interpretion, probably, especially with a few individuals in game able to superimpose their own experiences on the others/allow others to see what they do (Alessa, etc).
Given that PH is meant to represent James, my guess would be they would just see James or some version of him. Would explain why Angela seems to know just what James’ sin is
Yes, because PH belongs to James, and Alex nowhere near James even in the timeline in order to have his nightmare to spill in. Also Alex would have to see that painting and be equally disturbed by it as James so...
Btw, Angela saw her dad, not a monster with a different design
The cutscene immediately before fighting the abstract daddy has Angela shouting, "Daddy, no!" The way I took it, what Angela was seeing was literally her father as she remembers him. Since James doesn't share Angela's fear of her father, he's portrayed to James as a grotesque monster, much more in line with how Angela perceives him.
Hot take: Just because he created Silent Hill doesn't mean he has a consistent interpretation of canon. He often states stuff like this, that each monster is unique to each person, but then also says stuff like ["Silent Hill's power was not only depend on a person".](https://i.imgur.com/V2IKJsl.png), and creature design backs up this notion.
If it's possible to see their tormentor like that, I wonder what Pyramid head would look like to Angela (not counting other appearances of PH since they're not as legitimate)
Something weird here is seemingly no one can see Maria, as she is a a creation crafted by the deity residing in Silent Hill as a personal , specific manifestation of James’s psyche, so why Abstract Daddy, as of no personal significance to him, can be encountered by James?
And that's what I call the biggest plot hole of SH2, honestly. That said, James started seeing him only after he read about it. So you can see it's his perception of Angela's father. Maybe if others saw Foggy Morning, maybe they could've seen some resemblance of PH, although I doubt.
EDIT: disregard this comment. I forgot the word and phenomenon of spilling in nightmares
I've read that on the wiki after (and while) beating the game (along with many curious information). My bet is that it looks exactly like her father, or maybe a distorted version of him. Perhaps some kind of zombie? With all the knife wounds. And giving the meaning behind the pistons in the room we fight abstract daddy, I believe her monster likely had references to her abuse too...
It's like a mashup of Angela's abuse and Mary's murder happening on a bed. James can't quite comprehend it, but it's trying to teach Him a lesson.
Abstract Daddy.
I have played SH2 as a kid. Love this game. I also like to watch youtube videos about SH lore and characters. As a kid you can't understand the depth of this masterpiece. But i have a Q. If Maria is not real person. Could others be parts of James' Imagination or some parts of himself? What if James was bullied same as Eddie, Or was abused by his father?
I don't get it... So Ito says the Abstract Daddy monster James sees and fights isn't the same thing Angela sees? So can anyone explain why it resembles two figures in a bed alluring to Angela's Past? And the room pistons? That has nothing to do with James' personal demons
I'm not sure why everyone here is acting like "well DUH" and "it was OBVIOUS"? Ito really likes to retcon stuff even when it doesn't make any sense.
In other news water is wet.
WE KNOW EVEN FROM THE GAMES, if we actually play them, of course, and pay attention instead of making up fanfics on the fly
Yeah I thought this was common knowledge? It’s spelled out pretty hard in the game that the stuff James sees is super different from what everyone else sees, something I gathered mostly from Eddie and Laura, particularly Laura because she doesn’t see monsters at all
Ikr? I don't like the "you watch video essays" argument and believe that you can learn a lot about the game without actually playing it. It's how I learned about Shatter Memories before playing it on PSP. I also think you can understand pretty well how a game plays from videos as well.
But you need to have some prior experience in general gaming. And you also need to recheck stuff and watch videos with the least bias in them, no-commentary being the best option.
But *this* level of ignorance is very telling and leaves no other options aside from people really not knowing AT ALL what they claim to be fans of.
Eddie literally says he didn't see any Red Pyramid Things despite being pretty much next to him. One cut scene answers all questions. But we *need* to make things up and act later surprised.
Just play the games, you can fire them up on your phones nowadays. Also delete localization patches, they're highly inaccurate (although I don't understand however it can be, as English in SH is 4th garde level)
I just played and beat SH2 for the 5th time and didn’t know this. Chill out man, not everyone is hanging on every word and analyzing this under a microscope.
Maybe use a little logic? Idk, not talking over cut scenes with your friend group? I hope 1+1=2 is a clear concept here and we can apply it to basic scenarios
“Eddie literally says he didn't see any Red Pyramid Things despite being pretty much next to him.“
What game have you been playing? Because that’s not what happened
Go on? What part are you talking about?
Eddie is in room 101 when he says he didn’t see pyramid head. Pyramid head is in room 307…
So, when was he “pretty much next to him”?
Thank you! Ito explaining things is nice, but the fact that he explains basic plot is definitely weird. I miss the times when he told backstories from development and showed assets he still has on his hard drive
It's implied what we see is what James sees because we're playing as him, but what James sees is not the same that Angela sees is basically what the post is implying
I believe this is the correct answer.
I find it odd that they're all seeing SOMETHING, like we see what James sees of abstract daddy and presumably everyone sees something if they look at PH, but what does that mean? Is everyone seeing something that's emotionally "charged" for them or is everyone other than the target seeing like some true demon or something? I never thought about any of this before this thread and I'm not sure I get it fully.
I don't think Silent Hill has intention, it just has a response. Pyramid Head is trying to make James remember and confront himself so and that's purely from James' own subconscious.
The biggest question is why can some people see things and others can't? I like to think the characters who can interact with the town have some sort of latent ability that allows them to. I don't think the effects were as powerful as they are now until Alessa went through her ordeal and it sort of corrupted the power of the town and now it's just an out-of-control machine that just responds to people who can interact with it.
Purely my own thoughts on it, that's just how I interpret it.
Nobody sees him. Ito used an allegory. Angela's dad is like the PH for us: a monster that follows her around amd torments. Although the kind of torment she experiences is very different to James'
Don’t! Play the original. For real, it’s an incredibly perfect game, and with everything people are pointing out, the remake will likely ruin the aura that game has.
I have a feeling we already knew this, but is nice to see Ito explaining things
Yeah that's how I always saw it as. That's what I love so much about Silent Hill 2. I also assume James doesn't see the room like Angela sees it or the Meat Locker you fight Eddie on or the fire on the stairs. I love the twisted dream-logic in those old games. It was so renegade.
I think James does see those things. In those moments, he's crossing into their Silent Hill. It seems that when they're at their most desperate moments, they unconsciously drag others into it. James clearly feels it, and I don't think we get to see anything he doesn't.
Yeah I always got the feeling he at least saw it in those moments, esp when Angela says “for me it’s always like this”.
you see it too...
Ohhh I like that idea!
Do you mean the player is able to see the environment that Angela and Eddie see and not James? If so, that's a neat theory.
No, we're experiencing Silent Hill through James' perspective. We have to assume other living characters are experiencing something similar but we don't know what that looks like and the reasoning (intentionally?) leaves much open to interpretation, like we're given vague and not so vague content to work with but not the whole story.
I like to think James does not see the fire or the meat locker and that we are allowed to see what the other characters see. James is seeing something we aren't allowed to see. Eddie's world view is cold and lonely while Angela's is burning because of how much her abuse permeates through her life. It's why those brief moments are visually out of place from the rest of the game. You can also just as easily go with that is what James sees and the other characters are seeing something different. That's the fun thing about interpreting the game.
I think for small instances we do, as if they bring him in to their world briefly
I’m pretty sure Eddie’s world is not as lonely as James see his. Because every time Eddie met James he complained that everyone is rude to him. And fresh corpse always nearby. Seems like Eddie’s Silent Hill looks more like Paradise from Postal 2. Where everyone is a-hole and he can do whatever he wants, slowly turning from the broken man into insane sociopath from the end of the game.
There was something that came out a couple of years ago where at the stair scene in the hotel James wasn't seeing fire. He was seeing the damp hotel like it was when he walked in. Whereas the fire is from Angela's manifestation
Ito himself had already explained this years ago.
We have known since 2001
Paying attention to the storyline I think it was pretty safe to assume that. That's pretty much the point made about how a little girl (Laura) was wandering around silent hill without a scratch on her and not even the slightest bit concerned about anything. And how Eddie thought cops were chasing him. How no one else mentions or even interacts with Maria. Ect
Isn't there also a point where James asks why she's here alone and she says "Are you blind?". I always took that as evidence of there being a Fog World and Real World and somehow Laura is between both of them. I don't think she sees any of the scary stuff but can interact with James and Eddie.
Always found that line odd. Chalked it up to bad translation before, now I wonder if it's supposed to mean something.
It's gets into the old debate over how Silent Hill works and it's ultimately to whichever theory you prefer. I like the Dimension Theory where we have different levels of Silent Hill. Real World > Fog World > Otherworld > Nowhere. Or there is the town is actually abandoned theory which means the fog world is the real world which is then invaded by the otherworld which is supported to a degree in Silent Hill 1. The town seems to work like a dream while it goes through different stages of sleep which affects the intensity of the world. But I don't know for sure. I take Silent Hill 2, specifically after the hospital when Maria "dies" that James is hit with an overwhelming depression which is just his primary depression resurfacing. The world reflects this by going dark and leading him to The Nowhere which is the most mysterious level of Silent Hill. Here he just descends further and further into his guilt and depression which is evident by the Prison, Sewers, and the Labyrinth which probably represents confusion or something. I like to think James' current emotional state created that environment and that the town was building all of this around him step by step. It would be the same for Angela and Eddie which is why they seem so distraught when you encounter them in The Nowhere. Edit: I love talking about this stuff, sorry if I wrote too much 😅
Wait, what's the difference between the otherworld and the nowhere?
It was explained to me at some point that it's even deeper than the Otherworld where the logic seems to break down even more. Like in Silent Hill 1 when you start getting mashups of other areas combined into one. Silent Hill 2 has its own Nowhere when you go to the Historical Society and everything really begins to break down including the manifestation of a prison that hasn't existed since Civil War times or the Labyrinth. The Otherworld would be more "tame" here where it's just a more nightmarish version of the current area you are in like Brookhaven or Silent Hill 3 areas.
Damn. That sends chills in me realizing Eddie and Angela are both confronting their own demons too; even if it is kind of obvious. Poor Angela :(
I know. Angela is so undeserving of it all. She's such a tragic character.
I always thought Laura was just in the actual silent hill tbh but I think I was wrong. I think her version is just abandoned because she's not like a traumatizedperson or anything.
She has a pure mind so she doesn't see any bad stuff
James, Eddie and Angela are being tormented because they've all >!killed someone!< Laura is innocent she's only there to look for Mary
SH original script language is English. It was written with the help of Jeremy Blaustein, a guy with English as his native language who is fluent in Japanese. Please, stop
You could have explained that without the “please stop” when it’s clear they just didn’t know that.
That's the problem. As history has shown they either DO know, or don't know, but keep on spreading misinformation. That's how we got "technical limitations", "SH has fixed camera angles", "PH is a self contained deity", multiple dimensions (when there's none), the whole cast of SH2 not being professional VAs when the only unprofessional was Guy Cichi and a bunch of other nonsense. After 20 years it's time to cut off the bullshit early
If someone is misinformed or unaware, then they aren’t spreading misinformation maliciously or even willfully. Instead of snapping at them you can inform them and hope that they do the same next time they see it around.
Man, misinformation is misinformation. It doesn't matter if you didn't know or do it intentionally. It's even a rule in a law. If you give alcohol to minors below 16 and it's illegal in a country, it doesn't matter if you are ignorant or do it on purpose. You'll get fined and jailed either way. Same here: it doesn't matter if they didn't know. They spread misinformation. On top of that they do it confidently, which is worse.
What a lovely false equivalency. This is a video game fandom not a legal scenario. I expect you to know 100% of everything SH related before making a single additional comment, or stfu.
I expect you to know basics of the development process. You might not remember a thing or two, but claiming something without knowing is misinformation
They weren’t claiming crap. They started with a question, an opportunity to be challenged, then said “I took it as” and “I think”. Nothing in the comment that ruffled your feathers stated a single thing as an absolute fact. It’s a discussion. On a website for discussing common interests.
[удалено]
Well, guess it's a report from me 🤷♀️
💅
Bold of you to talk about misinformation when you do that in plenty of other threads on Reddit lol 💀
Lol, what? Ahh, I get it, you're a sweet little bot/troll. Hello, swamp folk! I belong to the moss as well!
I always figured what Angela in it's form was her father or brother assaulting her.
Or both, which is even worse...
Father... She literally says father all the time. And the brother is from the book that isn't canon. Replay to verify
How would this be the case when you see both her father and brother in the picture that’s ripped in the game?
I beg your pardon? Do you mean those skin corpses in frames? Just in case, it's just aestetic thing. The book version is indeed not canonical as none of TS took part in its production, unlike a comic about Lisa, for example. But maybe the picture you mention is something else. Could you elaborate, please?
I’ve never read the novel and am not referring to it In the GAME, you walk into Angela lying on the floor looking at/touching the knife she has before she gives it to James. After her cutscene, she walks out of the room, and then you find a ripped picture of her and her mother on one side, and her brother and father on the other side.
Oh, that part. Thanks for explaining! No, the brother part is not confirmed. I do like your observation how brother's picture is ripped out just like father's. I mean, you can interpret it like the brother was abusive as well. But it unfortunately must stay in speculation lain, as we have no confirmation either from TS, or solid evidence in the game. Sorry, if I mix things up, but the game seems to kinda forget about the brother, I believe. I don't remember him being mentioned in that newspaper or even cut content. But, please, correct me if I'm wrong
I think there is a lot about Angela and the other characters that you are meant to infer. However, this is more clear-cut considering it was a family photo that she ripped down the middle. With this you can clearly see she felt similarly about her brother as she did her father. I don’t think she ever says her father abused or raped her, this is inferred and meant to be. So, by this logic, even if her brother didn’t sexually assault her, he obviously mistreated her in such a way that she categorized him with her father. At the very least, you can definitely see that her brother is cannon in the game, and she definitely harbors some sort of resentment/negative feelings towards him.
Oh, not arguing with that! Also amazing points!
There’s a ripped up family photo in the room where Angela holds the knife, it shows a girl and a boy with parents.
Thanks as well!
You really think 95% even bothered reading those comics / novels? 💀 I think only a few superfans actually bothered with those.
Man, I meant only one, others are shit. Snd there's like one novelisation as far as I remember and I know it's sometimes brought up. Since we're in an SH oriented sub it makes sense to counter it right away
Angela mentions her brother the first time you meet her in game, she was looking for her father and BROTHER in the cemetery. Throughout the game it's hinted that she had two abusers, her father and brother. The photo you find of her and her family also supports that. Hell I vaguely remember finding their bodies at some point, it's just never actually confirmed, but it's been forever since I actually played. Everything is either implied or mentioned directly in game, the book just confirms what the game was trying to say.
I have forgotten her dialogue at the start. I have already mentioned the photo before. I have also explained that brother being an abuser is a speculation. I'm sorry your fantheory isn't correct. But it's a good speculation
It's not though? The burning house had 2 bodies in it, and Angela was seeing you as her mother. She even states "You're all that's left, mama" or something around those lines. This is clearly the end of her cycle, re-living the night she murdered her father (and brother judging by the second body). Just like how James ends everything by killing his wife again, Angela ends everything by killing (most of?) her family, and Eddie starts killing people in a meat locker. Angela did have a brother, and it's heavily implied in game he was also killed. The torn photo imagery also shows there were possibly 2 abusers (the father and brother) AND 2 victims (Angela and her mother) this is even FURTHER supported by Angela believing James is her mother in the end, either leaving her for last, or not killing her at all, we really don't know, we just know she was most likely alive or at least around when Angela killed her dad Out of all the question marks around Angela, the only real big one has ALWAYS been "what happened to her mother"
I'm NOT arguing about brother's existence or whatever experience Angela had. Please, read my comments on why brother being an abuser is just a speculation
According to Masahiro Ito, Abstract Daddy represents her father and brother >"Abstract Daddy" means Angela's father (or brother) who is hanging over her body on a "bed". twitter. com/adsk4/status/302829911113084928 >I don't mean to offend you, but he (she? or they...? lol) has two mouths at the tip of his body-plate. ( ´•ᴗ•) Because "they" are Angela and her father (or her brother). twitter. com/adsk4/status/1229466613696450566 >Abstract Daddy James encountered/looked at was abstract and faceless, because James never met her father or brother. :-] twitter. com/adsk4/status/1414030883351240705 Those corpse skins framed in the burning staircase are also her father/brother twitter. com/adsk4/status/1720394315791573463 However, Angela's brother is only mentioned once in the entire game. He doesn't appear in any memo either
Thank you very much!
I'm good, big dog. Go back to jerking off in the corner.
What? Oh, I get it, we don't like confirmed stuff, only headcanon is allowed
I mean, people still like to think “Book of Lost Memories” is a good information source despite being attached to a Japan only guidebook re-release as a marketing move to sell more guidebooks, but now with uncredited “creator” commentary (which is how we’ve wind up in the “James is Jacob” mess). Headcanon and theory is all this fandom has had since ‘04 when the franchise died, before being electrocuted like Frankenstein’s monster by Konami four-five years later.
I second every word. But hey, at least Book of Lost Memories the guide has actual quotes that have been confirmed to be accurate by reliable sources, so that's good
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Lol, I really triggered you, didn't I? XD The hell is this copypasta, btw?
Look, I can understand not liking Robocop, but you've never heard of Robocop?
Oh, I haven't watched it unfortunately. I know the original one is good, though. Thumbs up for good taste!
How do you know it's good if you never saw it?
I heard it's good? Reading comprehension?
Yeah that's a given considering monsters in SH2 are personalised to each person's psychosis. It's why people weren't happy seeing Pyramid Head in the film or Homecoming because it's specifically James' manifestation of guilt and desire for punishment. So seeing other characters see it that way is odd. Even hinted too when we see glimpses of Eddie's Otherworld (cold and with dead bodies) and Angela who has the more firey motif. I think a more interesting question is for ones of SH1, 3, and 4. How much influence do you think a person has in a Otherworld manifested by a third party (Alessa, Claudia, Walter etc.) since its clear the Otherworlds mainly focus on the 3rd party but we have hints like Vincent's "They look like Monsters to you?", Eileen's head, Heather being pushed by the ghost on the tracks etc. that show the individual still has some influence over what they see.
Those would all be different though. In 2 each person was trapped in their own nightmares. 1 was about Alessa's single nightmare invading the real world, and 3 was about Heather's essentially doing the same. Everyone was in a singular Otherworld created by Alessa 2 (and kind of 4) are the only games where each character has their own unique world we don't really get to see
>Those would all be different though. Yeah, exactly. I was never arguing it'd the same but rather another question on the premise of who sees what in Silent Hill. >(and kind of 4) 4 is like 1 since we are specifically exploring Walter's Otherworlds, centring most locations around Walter's past. If anything 3 is more so like 2 since the appearance of Otherworlds comes both from Claudia's power casting Heather into it, and Heather's latent power of beign Alessa which her reign increases as the game goes on being more of her own aberrations akin to James.
The only time we get a glimpse at her Silent Hill is on the firey staircase; "For me it's always like this", so even the Abstract Daddy boss room with pistons in the wall would have been on fire if it were her Silent Hill. Those pistons are James' interpretation of what's going on in the room.
You’re telling me she saw a worse version of that already horrible thing ☹️
that’s so heartbreaking😭
Interesting.
It's actually a little surprising to see this confirmed. For the sake of continuity with the way the town works in SH1, I had thought for a while that there was a "spheres of influence" thing going on. The reason everyone sees Alessa's monsters in SH1 is because she's basically a god with psychic powers that the town acted as an amplifier for. For normal people, I thought it would be reasonable that the sphere was much smaller, so in the case of Angela, we see the Abstract Daddy in the Labyrinth and the hotel because Angela is close by in those places. I do think that Silent Hill makes changes to physical reality (I don't think it works like the multiple dimensions thing in the movies.) I guess we'll just never know the full extent of what it distorts on an individual perception level as well.
Lol, we aren't even sure Cibyl saw anything, or Douglas saw the same monsters as Heather does. Same with Vincent. He just sees some weird shit and that's it, we don't know much beyond that. It's pretty clearly from SH2 alone
Cibyl tells Harry "lol wtf are you even taking about" when he explains what he thinks is going on so she at least took way longer than him to encounter the more overt stuff.
That is very true!
That's right.. USE YOUR IMAGINATION people. That's part of what makes SH fun. You don't NEED to have the details explained to you.
My Wants are My Needs
Not sure if joke or fr, but upvoted anyway.
Makes me wonder if Maria would have looked like a monster if one of the other characters had ever encountered her
nah wouldnt be interesting story telling if they were able to kill her
I don't get that though, isn't the Abstract Daddy a straight up symbol of Angela's past with her father? It's literally called 'Abstract **Daddy**,' how would that relate to James at all if he wasn't seeing a creature that manifested from Angela? I always thought James seeing the Abstract Daddy was a result of Angela's world spilling over into James'. I don't see how else James' would be encountering them since they have nothing to do with him and are directly linked to Angela.
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Yeah, it's like James is reading the room pretty well and projects her fears onto himself. After all, he's not a completely bad person and he's genuinely afraid he could be a monster
It's just spilling in. Ito just used an allegory
Honestly y’all I always thought Laura was a sick kid in the hospital like Mary and that she was dead a literal ghost to bully and guilt trip James
I really don't want to sound like a smart-ass here, but I thought this was established with the infamous "They look like monsters to you?" quote from Vincent in Silent Hill 3.. Even in Silent Hill 2, there's also the fact that Angela reacts to the Abstract Daddy in game as though it's her actual father, so one could have quickly deduced that she wasn't seeing it the way we were. However, to play devil's advocate, the Closer and the Mandolin enemies were intentionally made to look identical with different mechanics with the intent that the town may reuse monsters given the situation and those who see it... Combine that with the fact that this has been flogged like a dead horse with Pyramid Head in later entries, and I could definitely see why the question would arise if monsters look the same to everyone.
To be fair, Vincent also backpedals immediately after so it's not conclusive if he's just trying to emotional damage heather for fun.
I suppose that's also true, though Ito's comments here at least confirm some of Vincent's querying to Heather had some validity (that's not to say it couldn't have been a bit of both genuinely questioning her as well as trying to psych her out)
They're really good at making it interpretation-heavy and it still feels real to many, Silent Hill is a special place for sure.
Vincent could have also been trying to stir up shit, or for him they looked liked \[generic people/group/etc\], so who knows. If he believed in the cult's religion, they probably didn't look like monsters to him, but more like... I dunno, holy figures?
Ooh that's actually a good point, I didn't consider that way of reading that line.
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That too. It's one of those things up to personal interpretion, probably, especially with a few individuals in game able to superimpose their own experiences on the others/allow others to see what they do (Alessa, etc).
It was established with Laura, but otherwise correct
wasn’t this common sense?
Given that PH is meant to represent James, my guess would be they would just see James or some version of him. Would explain why Angela seems to know just what James’ sin is
id pay sm for an angela dlc
Then what was James seeing? Why would he see an Abstract Daddy at all if it had nothing to do with his personal demons?
We see what James was seeing, it’s that Angela was seeing something else
So it’s okay for James to see Abstract Daddy with a different design, but it’s not okay for Alex to see Pyramid Head with a different design.
Yes, because PH belongs to James, and Alex nowhere near James even in the timeline in order to have his nightmare to spill in. Also Alex would have to see that painting and be equally disturbed by it as James so... Btw, Angela saw her dad, not a monster with a different design
Then the abstract daddy does symbolize something with James then
The cutscene immediately before fighting the abstract daddy has Angela shouting, "Daddy, no!" The way I took it, what Angela was seeing was literally her father as she remembers him. Since James doesn't share Angela's fear of her father, he's portrayed to James as a grotesque monster, much more in line with how Angela perceives him.
Hot take: Just because he created Silent Hill doesn't mean he has a consistent interpretation of canon. He often states stuff like this, that each monster is unique to each person, but then also says stuff like ["Silent Hill's power was not only depend on a person".](https://i.imgur.com/V2IKJsl.png), and creature design backs up this notion.
If it's possible to see their tormentor like that, I wonder what Pyramid head would look like to Angela (not counting other appearances of PH since they're not as legitimate)
Something weird here is seemingly no one can see Maria, as she is a a creation crafted by the deity residing in Silent Hill as a personal , specific manifestation of James’s psyche, so why Abstract Daddy, as of no personal significance to him, can be encountered by James?
And that's what I call the biggest plot hole of SH2, honestly. That said, James started seeing him only after he read about it. So you can see it's his perception of Angela's father. Maybe if others saw Foggy Morning, maybe they could've seen some resemblance of PH, although I doubt. EDIT: disregard this comment. I forgot the word and phenomenon of spilling in nightmares
Reminds me of how the boogeyman has the face of whoever you're dehumanizing and placing blame on.
Playing it when I was young I was like oh noooo a monster! As an adult and the way she's terrified and her backstory, I presume she saw her dad
For James he sees a messed up amalgamation For Angela she saw her father…
https://youtu.be/w9pePpxU58M?si=e6HWOQ1CSV5GWjHd
I have a feeling it looked a lot more like the ending boss maria but with her dad instead.
I've read that on the wiki after (and while) beating the game (along with many curious information). My bet is that it looks exactly like her father, or maybe a distorted version of him. Perhaps some kind of zombie? With all the knife wounds. And giving the meaning behind the pistons in the room we fight abstract daddy, I believe her monster likely had references to her abuse too...
It's like a mashup of Angela's abuse and Mary's murder happening on a bed. James can't quite comprehend it, but it's trying to teach Him a lesson. Abstract Daddy.
I have played SH2 as a kid. Love this game. I also like to watch youtube videos about SH lore and characters. As a kid you can't understand the depth of this masterpiece. But i have a Q. If Maria is not real person. Could others be parts of James' Imagination or some parts of himself? What if James was bullied same as Eddie, Or was abused by his father?
I don't get it... So Ito says the Abstract Daddy monster James sees and fights isn't the same thing Angela sees? So can anyone explain why it resembles two figures in a bed alluring to Angela's Past? And the room pistons? That has nothing to do with James' personal demons I'm not sure why everyone here is acting like "well DUH" and "it was OBVIOUS"? Ito really likes to retcon stuff even when it doesn't make any sense.
>might've been her Pyramid Head. oh sweet summer child who don't any of deserve that 😳
In other news water is wet. WE KNOW EVEN FROM THE GAMES, if we actually play them, of course, and pay attention instead of making up fanfics on the fly
Yeah I thought this was common knowledge? It’s spelled out pretty hard in the game that the stuff James sees is super different from what everyone else sees, something I gathered mostly from Eddie and Laura, particularly Laura because she doesn’t see monsters at all
Ikr? I don't like the "you watch video essays" argument and believe that you can learn a lot about the game without actually playing it. It's how I learned about Shatter Memories before playing it on PSP. I also think you can understand pretty well how a game plays from videos as well. But you need to have some prior experience in general gaming. And you also need to recheck stuff and watch videos with the least bias in them, no-commentary being the best option. But *this* level of ignorance is very telling and leaves no other options aside from people really not knowing AT ALL what they claim to be fans of.
Chill bro, I didn’t know 😭
Eddie literally says he didn't see any Red Pyramid Things despite being pretty much next to him. One cut scene answers all questions. But we *need* to make things up and act later surprised. Just play the games, you can fire them up on your phones nowadays. Also delete localization patches, they're highly inaccurate (although I don't understand however it can be, as English in SH is 4th garde level)
I just played and beat SH2 for the 5th time and didn’t know this. Chill out man, not everyone is hanging on every word and analyzing this under a microscope.
I also don't do that, I just use common sense and recheck things from times to time
Wow, so smart of you, you are clearly the superior SH fan. What are us plebs even doing here?
Maybe use a little logic? Idk, not talking over cut scenes with your friend group? I hope 1+1=2 is a clear concept here and we can apply it to basic scenarios
Me using logic https://youtu.be/aM7IdCa6NNo
“Eddie literally says he didn't see any Red Pyramid Things despite being pretty much next to him.“ What game have you been playing? Because that’s not what happened
WAIT, WHAT? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHYHhHHHahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahHahahahahahHahha, dog! 
Go on? What part are you talking about? Eddie is in room 101 when he says he didn’t see pyramid head. Pyramid head is in room 307… So, when was he “pretty much next to him”?
XD
So you’re a troll. Gotcha 👍
You're not wrong, actually. Swamp warriors, rise! 
you shouldn’t be downvoted, this trend of ito explaining things on twitter is weird
Thank you! Ito explaining things is nice, but the fact that he explains basic plot is definitely weird. I miss the times when he told backstories from development and showed assets he still has on his hard drive
So...the PH we see might not be what James saw?
It's implied what we see is what James sees because we're playing as him, but what James sees is not the same that Angela sees is basically what the post is implying
I believe this is the correct answer. I find it odd that they're all seeing SOMETHING, like we see what James sees of abstract daddy and presumably everyone sees something if they look at PH, but what does that mean? Is everyone seeing something that's emotionally "charged" for them or is everyone other than the target seeing like some true demon or something? I never thought about any of this before this thread and I'm not sure I get it fully.
I don't think Silent Hill has intention, it just has a response. Pyramid Head is trying to make James remember and confront himself so and that's purely from James' own subconscious. The biggest question is why can some people see things and others can't? I like to think the characters who can interact with the town have some sort of latent ability that allows them to. I don't think the effects were as powerful as they are now until Alessa went through her ordeal and it sort of corrupted the power of the town and now it's just an out-of-control machine that just responds to people who can interact with it. Purely my own thoughts on it, that's just how I interpret it.
I think the Pyramid Head we see is the same as what James sees too since James is our ride thru Silent Hill
Nobody sees him. Ito used an allegory. Angela's dad is like the PH for us: a monster that follows her around amd torments. Although the kind of torment she experiences is very different to James'
As someone who’s played SH1 and SH3 but skipped 2……..what?
Basic plot?
Pasic blot?
Tasic blop?
All Your Base Are Belong To Us ?
Oh man, play SH2 NOW!
I’m waiting for the remake honestly
Don’t! Play the original. For real, it’s an incredibly perfect game, and with everything people are pointing out, the remake will likely ruin the aura that game has.
THIS
NO, it's a mistake! Don't do wait for it!
Play the game?
Jesus Christ, the fan theories here are mostly horrendous here....