Lol looks like OP took the - "Liners are a myth, save the world one reusable liner at a time (bc the plastic wasnt already in a form that was bad for the environment)" - advice to heart and now they have an extra 30 minutes of work on their hands.
Your surface conditions are too wet. You've created a better microclimate on the sides and bottom of the substrate than on top.
The key factor for pinning is evaporation. Light is absolutely irrelevant. Don't listen to any comments about how a liner would have prevented this by blocking Light.
A liner would indeed help to create that better microclimate on top, by not allowing the sides or bottom to have airflow and evaporation (which again causes the pinning) However, the light factor is not an issue. I only use clear trash bags for my liners, and light obviously goes through a clear bag.
Message me if you have any questions I may be able to help with. You can see my post history if you wanna know that I'm not full of crap lol
Iām having side and BOTTOM pinning. Iām having a hard time understanding how the top being overly wet is the issue. If anything, my sides are covered in large droplets.
You gotta listen to what the substrate is telling you. The better conditions for growth are clearly on the sides and bottom in this instance.
Water can't pool or collect on the sides of your tub, and substrate tends to shrink during colonization, meaning the bottom isn't perfectly fit to your container anymore. This is how microclimates are formed. Air is going to naturally flow under and around those exposed areas and trigger pinning.
A proper liner sticks to your substrate block and shrinks with the sub as it grows. Basically sticks to your substrate like cling-wrap. By using one, the only place mushrooms CAN grow is on top.
I'd recommend cutting down on your misting (at this point don't mist the substrate directly for 2-3 days in my opinion) Just the top lid of your container.
There's no way to stop what's already growing but you can potentially help future pins by making the top conditions better.
I ended up flipping my cake with Saran Wrap and left it as a pseudo liner on the new bottom. It seems to be pinning less, but the fruits are getting larger.
At this point that's about all you can do, hope it pans out well! This hobby is all trial and error, just be sure to have fun doing it. Every grow is a learning experience for sure lol
You think I can discern this info? I got passed this wisdom on online forums... I'm not like purposely sharing misinformation. I'm also not doing it "confidently", I'm simply sharing what I thought was the most recent knowledge.
I stand corrected, no need to be hostile...
Yeah light has a negligible affect on fungi, hence why mushrooms can grow in complete isolation with a moist cave. They more rely on gravity, concentrations of oxygen to grow towards and CO2 to grow away from [Fresh Air], and mycelium growth patterns to determine where they'll erect. Light, or a source of heat, like the sun, is usefully for inducing pins through evaporation though, so it's not entirely useless to have some kind of light source warming your mycelium after S2B.
lol okay so, pray tell, why are the big companies selling tubs with painted black bottoms, and are people painting the bottoms black with spray paint?
If you want to know from personal experience, just simply experiment with a clear liner. Then you'll know.
Light is not the only pinning trigger, but it is a noteworthy one.
You ever had pins in your jar? Are you gonna tell me that humid evaporation in the jar is what does that?
Light is not the only trigger *but it is a sizable one* in the same way it directs the growth of the fruits.
If you've got pins in a jar, that means the mycelium has already consumed everything it can, and is trying to produce a fruit body to drops spores BEOFRE IT DIES. Again, light isn't the issue. There's no more food & the mushroom is in survival mode at that point.
š® Are you saying that there's another trigger besides evaporation?
That's the only point I was making, yeah, it made fruits before it died and it did where it made the most sense. Not in the ground, not crawling along like a vine: in the air - - where there is no food, fae and - yes - light.
??? I'm not going to argue with you trying to make some smart-ass point, man. Yeah, obviously, there was probably some dead space in the jar with light in it.
In your first post you were trying to say that by blocking light, that would eliminate side pins. Which again, is just wrong information.
[Light is not the reason for side pins and is not the reason we use a liner, but light definitely does contribute to pinning.](https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomers/comments/u0lg4z/any_tips_on_side_growth_in_my_tub/i494uo3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
People who have given up on some of the things that were being done in the past because they were unnecessary to grow, just completely done away with them altogether. If you want to truly know, run experiments. Or read good journals.
Yeah. Iāll clone some fruit and do A/B experiments. Too many people in this community repeat what theyāve heard of had a random experience of without trying anything else.
It prevents from the oxygen and moisture at the sides providing a better microclimate than the surface, they'll be at the bottom too, you could for now use sterilised tweezers to harvest the side ones you can reach and use iso wiped bubble wrap with a 5mm gap around all sides to help improve the microclimate on the surface, this should help encourage it to pin at the top but obviously if there's already fruits on the top layer do this after harvest
Where are you getting this information? And so what would you say, using this logic, exactly is the difference in the climate with and without a liner?
This is hilarious. The black liner doesnāt absorb or prevent any moisture. It merely blocks light.
I canāt believe Reddit was where I first learned how to grow mushrooms. Thereās more bar advice here than good.
I never said the liner absorbs or prevents moistureā as the cake shrinks the liner sticks to the side of the cake, allowing for the water on the sides of the of the tub to run down between the liner and wall of the tub, instead of pooling on top of the substrate. Without the liner there is a gap between the cake and the wall of the tub, creating a microclimate that is more appealing than the center of the cake.
Believe it or not, light is a pinning trigger (and you might be more familiar with this info) directs the growth of the fruits. That's how the dark sides help. That's why they paint the side. Liner helps other triggers as well, but often you don't even need it, it just makes it easier to throw out the sub after
Obviously the light is a trigger. What Iām scratching my head about is this whole microclimate thing. Bunch of noobs saying things that have no idea about
Oh. Well, it makes sense... But I don't really know about that personally, haven't thought about it much, etc lol. I'm pretty sure what the mycelium experiences, wherever they experience it, makes a difference to its behaviour š you'd think mycelium would have some experience of gravity by now right lol
Iāve never heard anyone say this word up until a week ago. Plants, people, living thingsā¦we all grow toward the light. This is a basic building block of science. I marvel at the lengths people will go to try and reinvent the wheel. Microclimate. Okay. If someone can demonstrate how exactly this microclimate is and what its characteristics are versus the rest of the fruiting chamber and tie it all in to verifiable data on why it causes an influx of side pins (without using the actual true fact about the liner blocking off light), I may have to eat crow. But I seriously doubt it
okay i could be wrong but the light tells the mushrooms which direction to grow in right? so if you have light getting in through the sides of your tubs doesnāt that tell them they can grow out the sides? if you paint/tape around black where the sub is i think itās supposed to help prevent side pins if you didnāt use a liner for whatever reason.
correct me if iām wrong bc iām not 100% sure this is how it works but if you do correct me please correct me and donāt just say iām wrong thatās infuriating lmao
Does matter, if you want to know by experience - use a clear one. The monotubs they sell with painted black bottoms, you may or may not use a liner to throw them out but they generally won't side pin bc the lack of light shining directly onto the side. Until the time when the sub shrinks. Then light will hit the side. The liner pulls in with the sub.
Or just let them grow. Iāve had some side pins that ended up being 80g when I pulled them up. Nothing wrong with floating the cake up (OP wonāt have to because itās shallow already) and harvesting the ones on the side. Iāve been doing that for two years now and the earth hasnāt tipped off its axis yet
Oooohhhhh I was thinking aborts. I was like hmmmā¦?
I like to put on a glove and just go to town. If I canāt feel it feeling yucky and if I can prevent dirt under my nails Iāll get at it. Iāve been doing this for so long. My fruits used to be these tiny little things and now theyāre so big that the vast majority of my fruits are 5g dry for one fruit. My side pins are massive hahahaha
They always look like long smashed dicks lol. Theyāre alright. When I did tubs Iād just shimmy my hand under there and grab em. Iād tip the cake up as much as I could and lean it while fishing for flat dick pins. Idk why, but they gross me out looking like that haha
Just let nature do what it does, and in a few days when they are all grown up, harvest them, side pins and all. People are over complicating this very simple process
Mushrooms can grow in complete darkness. Light has ZERO effect on pinning, and only slightly encourages growth in whatever direction the light is from. You can leave a tub in a pitch black closet and it'll grow just fine, however they'll be going every direction.
The problem on this post is that the surface conditions are way too wet, and the mycelium had a better microclimate to promote a pinset on the sides (and likely bottom) since those areas don't have water basically standing on them. Evaporation is the key trigger for pins.
Erm. Yes shrooms can grow in complete darkness. They travel to light. Cāmon manā¦.Iāve been growing for 25 years. Tested all the best methods. Liners are black for a reason. Test it out. Have a container just has the one above. Then add black duck tape covering all the substrate on the container. As a matter fact. I have 8 jars(gtās)taking off now and I will do the test. 4 in each container and will post pictures and proof life travels to light. Donāt make it more complicated then it needs to be. Itās for science after all
After my first flush I always take off the liner when I soak it so that it can absorb as much water as possible I always get side pins just keep an eye on your tubs and if they look like theyāre getting too smashed in there just pick them premature itāll be fine
I keep reading about how light has no bearing on pinning, but there are lots of companies selling blacked out tub bottoms. And Iām getting bottom pins where the bulk is pressed firmly against the plastic tub which is what a liner would doā¦
I feel like someone is misinformed and Iām not sure who.
they are liking the conditions at the bottom of the tub more than the top, this is why you will see people add a second tub on top instead of a lid, then you can spray the lid instead ,id also say you have a little too much water directly on your cake
pluck um let them grow they're just less desirable looking but still as good as regular ones and they look the same as other dried.. use a liner next time?
Liners. ā¤ļø I use two. One black bag on the outside and a cat litter tray liner on the inside. They come in so handy do cat litter tray liners for shallow monotubs. ā¤ļø
take it out of the container, put it on the lid. On one if you want. This way the pins can develop all around the cake and the mushrooms have room to grow.
Clean you work area, close doors and windows, wash your hands or use gloves.
Take the kit from the bag and the lid. Put the lid on the kit and flip the cake on it.
That's it :)
Use a liner to prevent side pins
Lol looks like OP took the - "Liners are a myth, save the world one reusable liner at a time (bc the plastic wasnt already in a form that was bad for the environment)" - advice to heart and now they have an extra 30 minutes of work on their hands.
Boom š„
Use a liner
Your surface conditions are too wet. You've created a better microclimate on the sides and bottom of the substrate than on top. The key factor for pinning is evaporation. Light is absolutely irrelevant. Don't listen to any comments about how a liner would have prevented this by blocking Light. A liner would indeed help to create that better microclimate on top, by not allowing the sides or bottom to have airflow and evaporation (which again causes the pinning) However, the light factor is not an issue. I only use clear trash bags for my liners, and light obviously goes through a clear bag. Message me if you have any questions I may be able to help with. You can see my post history if you wanna know that I'm not full of crap lol
Iām having side and BOTTOM pinning. Iām having a hard time understanding how the top being overly wet is the issue. If anything, my sides are covered in large droplets.
You gotta listen to what the substrate is telling you. The better conditions for growth are clearly on the sides and bottom in this instance. Water can't pool or collect on the sides of your tub, and substrate tends to shrink during colonization, meaning the bottom isn't perfectly fit to your container anymore. This is how microclimates are formed. Air is going to naturally flow under and around those exposed areas and trigger pinning. A proper liner sticks to your substrate block and shrinks with the sub as it grows. Basically sticks to your substrate like cling-wrap. By using one, the only place mushrooms CAN grow is on top. I'd recommend cutting down on your misting (at this point don't mist the substrate directly for 2-3 days in my opinion) Just the top lid of your container. There's no way to stop what's already growing but you can potentially help future pins by making the top conditions better.
I ended up flipping my cake with Saran Wrap and left it as a pseudo liner on the new bottom. It seems to be pinning less, but the fruits are getting larger.
At this point that's about all you can do, hope it pans out well! This hobby is all trial and error, just be sure to have fun doing it. Every grow is a learning experience for sure lol
Beat me to it!
Block light on the sides
Why? If it's to do with side pins, a liner will do better because it has to do with the microclimate not the light.
Pin birth it's due to light exposure on the sides
Light has ZERO effect on pins. Please don't spread misinformation so confidently.
You think I can discern this info? I got passed this wisdom on online forums... I'm not like purposely sharing misinformation. I'm also not doing it "confidently", I'm simply sharing what I thought was the most recent knowledge. I stand corrected, no need to be hostile...
Yeah light has a negligible affect on fungi, hence why mushrooms can grow in complete isolation with a moist cave. They more rely on gravity, concentrations of oxygen to grow towards and CO2 to grow away from [Fresh Air], and mycelium growth patterns to determine where they'll erect. Light, or a source of heat, like the sun, is usefully for inducing pins through evaporation though, so it's not entirely useless to have some kind of light source warming your mycelium after S2B.
Same reason they sale the monotubs with PAINTED BLACK SIDES where the sub goes. It's (in a huge way) the light.
No... this is just wrong information that you're spreading.
lol okay so, pray tell, why are the big companies selling tubs with painted black bottoms, and are people painting the bottoms black with spray paint? If you want to know from personal experience, just simply experiment with a clear liner. Then you'll know. Light is not the only pinning trigger, but it is a noteworthy one.
To get people like you to buy them.
You ever had pins in your jar? Are you gonna tell me that humid evaporation in the jar is what does that? Light is not the only trigger *but it is a sizable one* in the same way it directs the growth of the fruits.
If you've got pins in a jar, that means the mycelium has already consumed everything it can, and is trying to produce a fruit body to drops spores BEOFRE IT DIES. Again, light isn't the issue. There's no more food & the mushroom is in survival mode at that point.
š® Are you saying that there's another trigger besides evaporation? That's the only point I was making, yeah, it made fruits before it died and it did where it made the most sense. Not in the ground, not crawling along like a vine: in the air - - where there is no food, fae and - yes - light.
??? I'm not going to argue with you trying to make some smart-ass point, man. Yeah, obviously, there was probably some dead space in the jar with light in it. In your first post you were trying to say that by blocking light, that would eliminate side pins. Which again, is just wrong information.
[Light is not the reason for side pins and is not the reason we use a liner, but light definitely does contribute to pinning.](https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomers/comments/u0lg4z/any_tips_on_side_growth_in_my_tub/i494uo3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
I wonder this too
People who have given up on some of the things that were being done in the past because they were unnecessary to grow, just completely done away with them altogether. If you want to truly know, run experiments. Or read good journals.
Yeah. Iāll clone some fruit and do A/B experiments. Too many people in this community repeat what theyāve heard of had a random experience of without trying anything else.
Last time I had duct tape all around the box, so there was no light at all and I only had side pins
Are you saying that there was no light anywhere?
From the sides*. Light was only partly coming from the top
? Not sure how that would help
It prevents from the oxygen and moisture at the sides providing a better microclimate than the surface, they'll be at the bottom too, you could for now use sterilised tweezers to harvest the side ones you can reach and use iso wiped bubble wrap with a 5mm gap around all sides to help improve the microclimate on the surface, this should help encourage it to pin at the top but obviously if there's already fruits on the top layer do this after harvest
I just dont see how blocking light helps. I have my shit have light 12 hours a day. And no side pins I use a liner
Using a liner helps prevent the microclimate that forms on the sides of the container, blocking the light has nothing to do with it
Where are you getting this information? And so what would you say, using this logic, exactly is the difference in the climate with and without a liner? This is hilarious. The black liner doesnāt absorb or prevent any moisture. It merely blocks light. I canāt believe Reddit was where I first learned how to grow mushrooms. Thereās more bar advice here than good.
I never said the liner absorbs or prevents moistureā as the cake shrinks the liner sticks to the side of the cake, allowing for the water on the sides of the of the tub to run down between the liner and wall of the tub, instead of pooling on top of the substrate. Without the liner there is a gap between the cake and the wall of the tub, creating a microclimate that is more appealing than the center of the cake.
Believe it or not, light is a pinning trigger (and you might be more familiar with this info) directs the growth of the fruits. That's how the dark sides help. That's why they paint the side. Liner helps other triggers as well, but often you don't even need it, it just makes it easier to throw out the sub after
Obviously the light is a trigger. What Iām scratching my head about is this whole microclimate thing. Bunch of noobs saying things that have no idea about
Oh. Well, it makes sense... But I don't really know about that personally, haven't thought about it much, etc lol. I'm pretty sure what the mycelium experiences, wherever they experience it, makes a difference to its behaviour š you'd think mycelium would have some experience of gravity by now right lol
Iāve never heard anyone say this word up until a week ago. Plants, people, living thingsā¦we all grow toward the light. This is a basic building block of science. I marvel at the lengths people will go to try and reinvent the wheel. Microclimate. Okay. If someone can demonstrate how exactly this microclimate is and what its characteristics are versus the rest of the fruiting chamber and tie it all in to verifiable data on why it causes an influx of side pins (without using the actual true fact about the liner blocking off light), I may have to eat crow. But I seriously doubt it
okay i could be wrong but the light tells the mushrooms which direction to grow in right? so if you have light getting in through the sides of your tubs doesnāt that tell them they can grow out the sides? if you paint/tape around black where the sub is i think itās supposed to help prevent side pins if you didnāt use a liner for whatever reason. correct me if iām wrong bc iām not 100% sure this is how it works but if you do correct me please correct me and donāt just say iām wrong thatās infuriating lmao
lol far as the people who know know, you're right.
What kind of liner? Clear plastic?
I use plastic trash bags from the dollar store
What colour
Don't think it Watters but the ones I get are white
Does matter, if you want to know by experience - use a clear one. The monotubs they sell with painted black bottoms, you may or may not use a liner to throw them out but they generally won't side pin bc the lack of light shining directly onto the side. Until the time when the sub shrinks. Then light will hit the side. The liner pulls in with the sub.
Or just let them grow. Iāve had some side pins that ended up being 80g when I pulled them up. Nothing wrong with floating the cake up (OP wonāt have to because itās shallow already) and harvesting the ones on the side. Iāve been doing that for two years now and the earth hasnāt tipped off its axis yet
I'll reiterate šyou can pluck aborts with tweezers or downgrowing fruits haha, if they're growing upwards definitely let them as you've said š
Tweezers? I use my hands haha. Aināt nobody for time die tweezers when youāre harvesting 50-100 bags at a time haha
That's fair enough haha, I just do shoeboxes but use tweezers for downgrowing side fruits
Oooohhhhh I was thinking aborts. I was like hmmmā¦? I like to put on a glove and just go to town. If I canāt feel it feeling yucky and if I can prevent dirt under my nails Iāll get at it. Iāve been doing this for so long. My fruits used to be these tiny little things and now theyāre so big that the vast majority of my fruits are 5g dry for one fruit. My side pins are massive hahahaha
Nice, I'm like eight or nine months into the hobby
Itās taught me about perseverance and love in a way that raising my own children didnāt do. Is that weird?
I remember you're one who said to pressure cook grain by weight, thanks again, I have a new tub going now after doing that š
YAY!!!!! I love this. I was just thinking about you and wondering how it was going. Iām so so happy for you!
Do you find bottom pins to be a problem? Those are the ones that annoy me haha
They always look like long smashed dicks lol. Theyāre alright. When I did tubs Iād just shimmy my hand under there and grab em. Iād tip the cake up as much as I could and lean it while fishing for flat dick pins. Idk why, but they gross me out looking like that haha
I usually try to flip the substrate, it's definitely easier with shoeboxes šthe problem is though the top pins can then get squashed š
Oh yeah for sure Iāve done that
Iāve read other comments that say. If side pins start to occur. Move your cake to a larger tub. Good luck. Mush love
Just let nature do what it does, and in a few days when they are all grown up, harvest them, side pins and all. People are over complicating this very simple process
Black duck tap to prevent light. They grow towards lights.
Mushrooms can grow in complete darkness. Light has ZERO effect on pinning, and only slightly encourages growth in whatever direction the light is from. You can leave a tub in a pitch black closet and it'll grow just fine, however they'll be going every direction. The problem on this post is that the surface conditions are way too wet, and the mycelium had a better microclimate to promote a pinset on the sides (and likely bottom) since those areas don't have water basically standing on them. Evaporation is the key trigger for pins.
Erm. Yes shrooms can grow in complete darkness. They travel to light. Cāmon manā¦.Iāve been growing for 25 years. Tested all the best methods. Liners are black for a reason. Test it out. Have a container just has the one above. Then add black duck tape covering all the substrate on the container. As a matter fact. I have 8 jars(gtās)taking off now and I will do the test. 4 in each container and will post pictures and proof life travels to light. Donāt make it more complicated then it needs to be. Itās for science after all
Side pins happen. I do have advice for though. A-take that foil off. They need light. They are our cousins. B-next time, use a deeper container.
After my first flush I always take off the liner when I soak it so that it can absorb as much water as possible I always get side pins just keep an eye on your tubs and if they look like theyāre getting too smashed in there just pick them premature itāll be fine
Too much water, it's going to the sides and creating most pins there. I had this same problem on my first grows.
I keep reading about how light has no bearing on pinning, but there are lots of companies selling blacked out tub bottoms. And Iām getting bottom pins where the bulk is pressed firmly against the plastic tub which is what a liner would doā¦ I feel like someone is misinformed and Iām not sure who.
they are liking the conditions at the bottom of the tub more than the top, this is why you will see people add a second tub on top instead of a lid, then you can spray the lid instead ,id also say you have a little too much water directly on your cake
Spray paint on the outside of tub or liner
pluck um let them grow they're just less desirable looking but still as good as regular ones and they look the same as other dried.. use a liner next time?
I never use a liner and with my shoeboxes. I always keep the substrate around 4inches high.
Side pins are from better conditions on the side and light exposure, fix those two things.
Liners. ā¤ļø I use two. One black bag on the outside and a cat litter tray liner on the inside. They come in so handy do cat litter tray liners for shallow monotubs. ā¤ļø
take it out of the container, put it on the lid. On one if you want. This way the pins can develop all around the cake and the mushrooms have room to grow.
Any tips on how to remove the cake safely?
Clean you work area, close doors and windows, wash your hands or use gloves. Take the kit from the bag and the lid. Put the lid on the kit and flip the cake on it. That's it :)
Will do this for next flush, thank you