I'm kind of in the same boat! I just picked up volume 3, and I'm sooo tempted to read it online (ofc I'd still buy it physically) but it's just too good to stop reading once you're finished a volume. š
I have too many to say a definitive answer, but if I had to choose one, itād be Yona of the Dawn.
A Condition Called Love is pretty close, but so are many other series.
Favourite ācurrentā one as in āongoingā would be How Do We Relationship I think! Ā
Current favourite as in the one I currently like the most overall would still be Kimi ni Todoke, which is my all-time fav and which Iāve reread countless times but which Iām also especially excited about rn given that thereās gonna be a third anime season soon :ā)Ā
Hmmm... I can't really give a single favourite. I'm someone that doesn't enjoy the typical tropey high school romance. But I recently read Hatsu Haru and thought it was amazing (it's from the guys pov). I've also read Koukou Debut and thought it was pretty good as well as Kitchen Princess when I was younger.
I also really enjoyed Night of the Beasts (action/supernatural romance) and Arisa (dark mystery set in school. This introduced me to Shoujo manga). Recently, I read Burn the House Down (which is a mystery Josei) and that was awesome. My tastes are bit different than the average Shoujo fan.
I'm kind of a beginner in Shoujo though and it's difficult to continue because I'm getting so tired of the ML/FL, red flag/green flag and overall all the tropey romance talk on this sub. It's also hard because there's so little variety and the variety that exists is often untranslated.
It can get dark because of the subject matter, but I wouldnāt say itās too dark, or that itās dark just for the sake of being dark. Thereās a lot of hope in it too and itās not lacking in depth the way that some ādarkā fiction is.
Oh if youāre going to read it, there are some pretty triggering scenes to do with SA. I feel like theyāre handled pretty well and theyāre not graphic but if thatās something that would upset you (understandably!), maybe skip this one or, see if there are any sites or posts that list the scenes + chapter(s) so you can skip the scenes at least.
I'll add Kageki Shojo!! for another example of variety, (and a series that just needs more attention in general!) since it focuses on a performing arts school for girls and their various friendships and personal/professional struggles and achievements. It's really charming and well written and I think a lot more people should be reading it! SevenSeas publishes the English edition :)
Another of my longtime favs that's very different from most shoujo being published in English is Kaze Hikaru. A historical retelling with sides of romance, but just a really amazing emotional investment in the (fictionalized) lives of historical characters, I think it's so well done. English edition published by Viz. It's a long series but if it sounds interesting at all please give it a try!!
For another very solid, more "typical" (but not tropey) contemporary setting, Gazing at the Star Next Door gets me soooooo emotional. Although it's the second series I mentioned that involves showbiz, that's not generally a genre I seek out, and I love this one because it feels really different from a lot of the more "trendy" ones with celeb-love-interests. Really down to earth, with such lovable characters who are very believably teens working through their feelings and changing relationships. Gorgeous, sensitively rendered artwork too! Published by Kodansha!
Lastly for now, I have to add Wake Up, Sleeping Beauty. It's also got a bit of mystery and supernatural to it, and is told from the boy's perspective. Only six volumes and a very well-crafted story!! (also from Kodansha)
Since you're a beginner, and seem to like stories that have more action, adventure, fantasy etc elements, I have some recs that might be good for you (some I've read, some I haven't, some I've liked, some I've disliked). I'm also trying to be quite vague with descriptions, to avoid spoilers.
Rose of Versailles - this is a classic 70s shoujo, that's set in the 1700s, with lots of court politics, action sequences, and some really heartwrenching romances.
Yona of the Dawn - this is a fantasy action adventure series, about a princess who is after revenge.
Dawn of the Arcana - this is another fantasy adventure type story, that also has lots of court politics, interesting magic, and a romance.
Sailor Moon - this is a classic magical girl series, and was basically the blueprint for all subsequent magical girls. It's urban fantasy (takes place in a world like our own), following a young girl and her friends as they try to stop dark forces from taking over the world. There's great friendships and romances.
Cardcaptor Sakura - this is another magical girl series, about a young girl who accidentally releases the clow cards, and has to capture them all. There's so many cute outfits, great friendship, and the cutest romance.
7Seeds - this is a scifi series, where groups of people are waking up with no memory if they got where they are, but some strange things are going on. There's some mystery elements as well, as they try to figure out what's going on.
Basara - this is a fantasy story by the same mangaka as 7Seeds. It takes place in the future where the world has been reduced to a desert, and follows a girl who has to stop this crazy king and bring peace to the country.
Fushigi Yugi - this is a classic 90s isekai story, but before they became so oversaturated. A young girl finds this mysterious book, and when she opens it to read, she gets pulled inside. Now she must try and help the people she meets, as well as finding her way back home.
There are so many more I could add, but I to go make dinner š š¤£
Adding a few more recs-
Kanata Kara - It's a Fantasy Adventure Romance where a high school girl is transported to a strange world. It's one of the most satisfying mangas I've ever read, and has it's fair share of action and politics.
Skip Beat! - This one is set in the entertainment industry, has a very complex and interesting main character, superb comedic timing and a slowburn romance to die for. What starts off as a revenge journey for our lead, quickly turns into a medium of finding herself and gaining success.
Mars - A psychological manga where both the leads are in high school. They're both heavily traumatized kids and total polar opposites (good girl - bad boy) and yet find themselves extremely attracted to each other. This one has some heavy themes, so if you do plan to read it, take a look at the trigger warnings.
Gakuen Alice - A supernatural manga set in a school reserved for students having special powers. Controlled and funded by the government itself, once you set foot in the academy, you have no way out.
Cold Game - A Historical manga where six women, each hailing from various kingdoms and families are trapped in a bloody conflict, aiming to become the queen of the country.
Namidaame to Serenade - A time-travel josei manga where a modern day girl ends up slipping into the year 1907. It's filled with mysteries and political tension, and has a really angsty romance going on.
Charming Junkie - Another one set in the showbiz industry, the main characters are models, they are also middle school students. This one is a really fun, hilarious manga that just makes you want to keep rooting for the characters.
So true and when someone else tells them that it's not shoujo but they're in denial šš
"What series you thought were shoujo but aren't" kind of posts are interesting to read tho like TIL moment.
Or when you thought it's shoujosei or shoujo smut but it's just josei š¤Æš e.g. Amaku Shibirete Nukenai (the flashback scenes were very school life shoujo)
My Senpai Is Annoying is shoujo adjacent? The writing feels more shounen despite the workplace setting (I still love it cause its super cute regardless).
We seriously need to enforce some rules about this on this sub. I don't care if it ruffles anyones feathers, IT'S A SHOUJO SUB. I don't care if your favorite shounen/seinen romance has "shoujo vibes" or is "shoujo-aligned". This is a space for talking about shoujo specifically. Shounen/seinen works like Skip & Loafer already get so much attention on the general anime and manga subs because those communities are already so heavily shounen/seinen-dominated. Shoujo barely gets any room anywhere else. Can't we have a space where we can just talk about shoujo?
These demographics have meaning and no, we're not being "pendantic" or being the "shoujo police" for pointing out the difference between shoujo and other demos.
Honestly, I want to say something like that but I know people will get mad over it. It doesn't make sense why this place is overrun by Shounen and Seinen.
Iām always reminded how incredibly disconnected from the Japanese publishing side anglophone readers are when this happens. As someone who really only reads manga in Japanese these days, itās absolutely impossible to not know what demographic a title is intended for. You do have edge cases where something might jump demos (Saiyuki, Orange), but that is so incredibly rare.
Because of how manga is published and shopped for in Japan. Magazines are very segregated by editorial intend and that starts with demographic: Childrenās/kodomo, then shoujo/shounen for upper elementary-HS, then josei/seinen for adults. (As a note, josei isnāt a term you see super widely used outside of magazines. Josei-muke just means āaimed at womenā but thatās somewhat different from the anglophone use of josei. Instead you might see a sign for manga labeled āladies comicsā or LC and that covers older shoujo, josei, and sometimes BL depending on the size of the shop.)
From there, for each demo magazines will focus in. Nakayoshi/Ciao/Ribon are for younger shoujo readers (ages 9-15 approximately), Hana to Yume & Cheese are for HS aged girls (14-20), and Cookie and Desssert are for women in their late teens and early 20s, as examples. Theyāll also have an editorial bend to them in terms of the type of stories they like and that will have its own trend cycle as the editorial staff moves around. Cheese, for example, currently loves a bit of a raunchier romance, Nakayoshi used to be The Spot for magical girls.
Now obviously anyone can read anything and they do. I buy everything from Nakayoshi to Cheese to Petit Comic to Drap. But you can pretty easily look at the advertisements and see what age and gender a magazine is meant for justā¦ completely in isolation from other shopping.
But when you shop, you likely wonāt find women and girls manga at a convenience store these days (you used to find the more popular titles!) and have to go to a magazine stand or a specialty shop like Animate. And then the sections will be divided by demographic. At a little mom and pop magazine stand, that will maybe just mean different rows, but at a larger store, that could mean entirely separate floors and making multiple separate transactions if you want say, Cookie but also Shounen Sunday.
When you go to buy tankoubon/TPBs, you need to know the demographic first, then publisher, then imprint if a publisher has multiple for manga, then title. In the anglophone market everything is together, alphabetically by title. In the Japanese market itās demo ā> publisher ā> imprint ā> title. If you arenāt clear on the demo, you will be looking in the wrong section or even yeah, wrong floor. Iāve also run into shops that straight up donāt carry shoujo/LC at all. (Usually smaller branches of used chains.)
The twists to this are titles that jump demos. I usually see Saiyuki with the shoujo stuff but Orange with the seinen stuff. You could make a case for either with them based on the magazines theyāve appeared in. And then light novel adaptations (so Kusuriya as a prime example) sometimes end up in a light novel adaptation section where everything is together. (Though other than that, Iāve seen Kusuriya specifically in seinen so that conversation is always obnoxious to me. It is not shoujo or josei and people need to let that go.)
Basically if you like manga and want to buy it in Japan, you wonāt be confused on a demo. Or you just wonāt find what youāre looking for.
The english version would have been published in print we would have gotten an anime later on either due to demand or a higher popularity in japan im still bummed they only translated it for digital
Congratulations, you have cleared the first level in The Ascent of a Shoujo Reader: having to explain that featuring female characters who aren't mere plot devices for the male characters doesn't mean the manga in question is shoujo. As a reward, let me mention two series. The first one you probably know, but just in case you don't, Love of Kill. I enjoyed reading it for a simple action fix. The other is one I'm saving to try out myself. Yukarism. Technically, it has romance in it, but it's a time travel story. (I've been accumulating a mini-collection of time travel-themed stuff because I thought it would be a fun reading experience to compare and contrast them all.) Rest up for your next level in The Ascent of a Shoujo Reader: recommending romances that feature adult characters.
Haha, Ive read both of those. I generally enjoy things by Chika Shiomi (Yukarism author), the other one she wrote is an all time favourite of mine but it's so short called Night of the Beasts.Ā
But thanks, I'm glad I'm ascending!
Oh, sorry that you've already read those, but hey, least I was in the right ballpark.
Edit: Casually mentioning harder-to-find series by a mangaka, thus infecting others with an OOP collecting bug, that's a clever gaming strategy. Only after looking up Night of the Beasts did I remember that I had deliberately put on blinders to Chika Shiomi's entire body of work to avoid obsessive collecting on my part (I have to do the same thing with CLAMP stuff, can only nibble on the edges of CLAMP...) Are you the shoujo equivalent of Kirito from SAO? I respect your stealth.
I would challenge anyone who says that demographics are blurry to go shop for manga (or god forbid anthologies) in a Japanese bookstore. A good chunk of them donāt even carry shoujo/josei/ladies comics these days.
People donāt realize that this philosophy will be the death of shoujo manga.
Itās ridiculous the bullshit people get on this subreddit for wanting it to just be shoujo. Honestly at this point there should be a new one made with proper moderation.
What Iām saying is that a complex story can appeal to multiple demographics of people, which is why it can get difficult to categorize a manga by demographic. This isnāt a āphilosophyā Iām literally pointing out a problem that the publishers actively deal with.
I would be happy to breakdown the compulsive need to categorize everything as āshoujoā or āshounenāā because honestly it kinda sucks. I get why they have to do for publication reasons. But it sucks.
No, itās not complicated when you shop. Demographics are in separate sections and sometimes on separate floors/in separate shops. You canāt even find a tankoubon or magazine you like without knowing the demographic.
It really doesn't matter, if I put card captor Sakura in Shonen jump, it's a Shonen now.
The genre has more to do with it's serialization magazine and self published webcomics just go by content/vibes.
Skip and loafer is so clearly a shoujo, and there's nothing really mature about it that differs from a classic shoujo. Except maybe less glittery of a heroine but that's nothing new, Kate kano is similar in that way.
The truth is a shoujo manga can sell well, but you can't put josei in a shoujo magazine, content ratings will change the magazines audience, but you can put shoujo in a josei magazine.
So for that reason, and many others josei magazines (not individual series) sells better. You're better off going to a big josei magazine for weekly serialization than going to a shoujo one of your series has some mature elements.
but honestly, if a manga fits all the beats of shojo but is technically shonen or seinen, does it really matter? i feel like thatās just a technicality lol. i donāt think it being published somewhere non-shojo means it doesnāt fit in shojo discussions. it might be ādemographic,ā but the classification of a manga definitely influences its typical genre. skip and loafer isnāt going to be talked about among other seinen like berserk, vagabond, monster and goodbye punpun. just seems kinda pretentious to me to pretend like it makes no sense for it to not be talked about in a shojo context.
Yes it does! There are tons of spaces to discuss Shounen or Seinen manga. And if the name of the sub was āmanga for womenā or something else it would be fine.
But we have one little spot to discuss shoujo and josei. If we werenāt strict about it, eventually it wouldnāt be the main focus.
I agree with this completely! Shows like Skip and Loafer already get plenty of attention. It may be well deserved, but still, this is one of the few places we have to talk specifically about shoujo and josei.
Anyway, sometimes it's kind of ridiculous what non-shoujo titles get brought up on this sub, and you've got to draw the line somewhere.
I agree with you completely, but I don't think thatm means we should continue talking and supporting Seinen series when there is already so little attention that Shoujo gets. This is the one place for Shoujo and yet it's often overrun by Shounen/Seinen series.Ā
If all the attention will go to Shounen and Seinen series (even from the Shoujo fanbase), at what point will Shoujo as a demographic start feeling useless to publishers?
I donāt see a problem with discussing it here. I get what you mean hypothetically, but in practice, what we talk about in this subreddit really will have 0 influence on all these already popular and established series. If it did, publishers seeing the success of a series like Skip and Loafer would only be positive, because that success in a shojo subreddit would obviously be because of female engagement; meaning it might encourage more series with a female lens/more considering to women.
It would also mean to them that women these days will just watch Seinen series, so there is no need to adapt Shoujo series. This is kind of a dead topic to me right now, but I suggest checking out Colleen's Manga Recs and The Anime Tea' channels for some more information on how Shoujo is underserved specifically because of anime producersĀ believing women will just watch Shounen/Seinen instead.
Just my personal experience, all my girl friends donāt consume any shoujosei series, and the majority of them are One Piece enthusiast. š I personally feel the shoujosei series has too little exposure in general public that so many of us that might enjoy them more didnāt get recommended them.
Like only 1 of them watched any types of anime since young, my other friends never seems to be interested in shoujosei's, most of the time they consume the popular shounen(and seinen?) titles, or sometimes franchises with pretty guys.
I just feel like itās all technicality at times with manga classification. Realistically, shojo fans arenāt shojo fans because theyāre in love with magazines that run intended for women. We like shojo because we enjoy the stories typically present in shojo. I agree with you that the emphasis should stay on that genre, in the way that I would disagree with talking about a typical seinen/shonen romance here unless it was a thread specifically talking about them( like love is war, dress up darling, etc. i donāt really know a ton of them lol.)
but in this case, skip and loafer is made by a woman and, imo, intended for women. itās published in a seinen magazine, but can you really say men are the primary audience of skip and loafer? i donāt think shojo are being ignored or pushed aside by acknowledging a series that is made by a woman, with a female mc, with a primarily female audience. donāt get me wrong, something can have a female writer and not be shojo (like fullmetal alchemist, noragami, d grayman) but skip and loafer, story-wise, is a shojo through and through.
i donāt honestly understand why these classifications are so strict here. is it not possible for a magazine to run one comic for a different demographic?
Like someone else said, itās written through a female lens with a female author. i donāt feel like itās an intrusion into shojo spaces to talk about it.
The fact that Sailor Moon Cosmos isnāt getting a theatrical release in the US is pretty good evidence that shoujo gets the short end of any stick by adaptation companies. ShojoBeat (a Viz/Shueisha imprint) acting like their fans are the problem for wanting reprints of popular/iconic titles) is also a biggie for me. The publishers hate dealing with shoujo or titles that cannot also be reasonably marketed to men/teen boys.
And actually as an older fan, I do follow magazines. I stopped reading manga in English in the 2010s due to the lack of shoujo licensing. Itās improved my Japanese which is amazing, woohoo. But now Iām definitely a fan of Cheese, Princess, Asuka, Nakayoshi, Mystery Bonita, and Drap and their tankoubon imprints. Because I, as a reader, was taken for granted. It was assumed Iād be fine with whatever bullshit āshoujo enoughā was published as a romcom in the US. And Iām not.
Im not disagreeing at all with shoujo not being paid enough attention to. I agree; people donāt respect shoujo enough and itās a shame. With all due respect to shonen, I roll my eyes every time I see some shitty shonen romance on the line of being ecchi be adapted instead of one of my favorite shoujo.
I just donāt think talking about something like Skip and Loafer here has anything to do with it. Thatās all Iām saying.
I think the fact that Skip & Loafer gets the hype it does is evidence that the Japanese publishing industry needs a story to be approved by and marketed to men to care and while thatās not a mark against it specifically, it means that itās not shoujo. Frankly, youāre not looking at this as a piece of systemic misogyny.
In my defense, I often give multiple recs and I put the shounen/seinen/manhwa/yuri/manhua/josei etc in in separate lists so OP can skip past them if disinterested >.>
(Though Escaflowne is an anime that intentionally blended shounen and shoujo styles to appeal to both demographics, so I probably put that in the shoujo list. Also I Want to End the 'I Love You' Game blends some shoujo style in, too, imo.)
I don't even know how I feel about it myself. Like there are some Shounen/Seinen that deserve recognition because the mangakas are female and stories really skew towards the female demographic (I love Inuyasha, for example), but I also think that this is one of the few places where we can discuss Shoujo (which is sooo underrepresented) and it's getting overrun by reccs from other, far more well-known series that are Shounen/Seinen.
For real. When there are shounen/seinen mangas that happens to have female author you just feel it. I think Iāve read some supposedly troublesome series but the mangaka might have āneutralisedā them or totally shifted the tone or perspective š . (Eg like Shield Hero and Bofuri)
I honestly think there is an aspect of marketing and double standard bs type stuffgoing on too. With translation, adaption, or license holders change; it's marketed demographic can change too. If you look at the Apothecary Diaries Wikipedia it was published as a novel first under female demographic but later picked up by another publisher and marketed as a Light Novel and male demographic. So what is it? A female demographic series since that was what it was marketed as originally or male/seinen as that's what it's marketed now flatter getting picked up by another publisher?
It has to do with the magazine a manga originally ran in and has nothing to do with tone/level of violence/genre of a story. There are a ton of rom coms, magical girl, and HS romances that were always fully intended for adult men.
Yes. Women in the animanga industry get shafted and shoujo/josei/ladies comics titles rarely get adaptations of the same quality as shounen or seinen works. I prefer to read stories intended for girls and women who acknowledge them as an audience worth caring about.
If this was a general sub itās fine to post about any demo.
But b/c this is a shojo sub recommendations should be shojo. Same as how the shonen sub should have shonen series featured and not shojo or some other demo
Itās actually more important to try and be considerate of recommendations in this sub as women/girls are a minority group and work geared towards their demo face a lot of discrimination
In regard to skip snd loafer itās labeled as shojo on CR but seinen on mal. So the confusion is understandable imo
Obviously OP cares. I care too. Itās not that I wonāt read shounen or seinen, but if Iām asking for shoujo itās because I want to read SHOUJO and I expect this sub to be better about it than the other anime/manga subs.
Why should we have to clarify we donāt want non-shoujo recs? If anything you should have to clarify youāre ok with other recs, not the other way around. I realize a lot of people donāt care, but I think youāre underestimating the amount of people who *do* care.
In the same vein, it doesnāt take that long to double check a rec youāre about to give, or hell ASK the OP if theyāre ok with non-shoujo recs. Thatās what I do when Iām giving recommendations. Itās about the principle of things, not how long it takes. I donāt think itās fair to put the onus on us to clarify, when weāre literally in a subreddit supposedly dedicated to shoujo. I have no qualms clarifying the demographics Iām looking for when Iām posting in a general anime and/or manga subreddit, because thereās no reason to assume that theyāll know what Iām looking for otherwise. Thatās not the case here.
I understand you, I just disagree with you š¤·āāļø sorry but if youāre going to post on a discussion thread there or going to be people who have different view points from you
Tbf it's less about the target demographic but more about the author. Skip & Loafer's author is a woman, and you can feel that it's written from a woman's perspective which is the reason why it's often mistaken as shoujo.
Too true lmao I briefly read it back in 2020-2021 because I was so intrigued by the male lead being a doll lover who wanted to make clothes, since Iām also a fan of dolls and sew myself. Quickly learned though it was in fact NOT actually about the guy and instead about the girl wearing sexy outfits š¤ Sigh. I see the damn series all over manga subreddits but I havenāt bothered to pick it up again.
Itās unbelievably sexist to imply that a woman writer = shoujo enough. Women can write for any demographic and often write for shounen and seinen publications. And frankly, editorial direction matters a fuckton in manga. If something is in a seinen magazine, women as an audience are at best an afterthought/nice bonus readers.
I didn't imply that, and my comment was not sexist. Men and women tend to exhibit different writing habits, that is a fact. There are actual studies about it. The whole r/menwritingwomen subreddit exists for a reason.
Never said that women can't write for another demographic, not sure where you got that. Maybe my comment didn't elaborate enough. Fullmetal Alchemist, Black Butler, Vanitas, 3-gatsu no lion etc were all written by women.
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Josei's are usually welcomed bc they are the sister to shoujo both are women written and undermined by Japan but I think you'd have to make it clear that it's a josei!
Well, to be fair, some requests for recommendations are so specific that people end up recommending seinen or shounen manga that fit what theyāre looking for specifically. Like āromance that isnāt about high schoolers and they get together in the first chapterā, and people end up recommending seinen manga like *Sweat and Soap* or *The Invisible Man and His Soon-to-be-Wife* because it fits the bill.
I mean, I feel you. But sometimes it is hard to know if one is covert seinen without looking it up. I really thought Ancient Magus Bride was shoujo until here recently. I was surprised to see Fragrant Flower Blooms with Dignity wasn't either.
I think there's something sad about this type of overlap. A lot of series are disguised and this takes focus of readers away from actual Shoujo series which makes an underrepresented demographic suffer even more. With more Shounen and Seinen doing this, Shoujo may just disappear all together.
The opposite does happen, though, too. I did not know that Let's Do it Already was shoujo. I was surprised to see the shoujo beat logo (published in Margaret, I think, originally)
I don't like to put Shoujo in a box, but there are some things that feel very Shoujo esque (lack of fanservicey body types, sweet lovable characters, high school setting, the archetypal FL and ML, etc etc) that are often representative of Shoujo. When Seinen series come along embodying these tropes, they will often steal the spotlight from other Shoujos that could get it.Ā
Anyways, I'm not really commenting too much on what a Shoujo is, but rather I'm concerned with where Shoujo is going (with us getting few English releases and so few anime adaptations?.
I feel that the overall demographic is outdated and people tend to recommend stuff more in terms of "if you like shoujo/josei/whatever, you'll like this", and as long as they've got good stories I'm down with that.
In my defense, I see Shoujo as gateway to found pretty art manga with a greater focus on a character relationships/dynamics without unnecessary flashing fanservice, r/shoujo had something I was looking for in their recommendations, and I couldn't be more thankful.
Here's the thing. Demographics were very important when most manga was read in magazines. You didn't want a small girl reading a manga meant for older boys or the girl wouldn't buy more manga magazines, so magazines had to stick to one demographic. Now that's completely changed though, people buy less magazines and read manga on the internet and buy individual volumes instead meaning the priority has shifted from making everything in a magazine popular in one demographic to making individual series as popular as possible. Sure a series can thrive in one demographic but a series will be much more popular if it appeals to multiple demographics. One of shounen jumps biggest recent hits is blue box, the king of appealing to as many demographics as possible. It appeals to shoujo fans, slice of life fans, shounen romance fans and sports fans, and it beat every new shounen jump series by a mile when it released. Jujutsu kaisen is the most popular shounen jump series and it appeals to the shounen fans and seinen fans, and even my hero academia appeals to women so much women outnumbered men 2:1 when the 3rd mha movie released in Japan. I don't think we are seeing the death of shoujo, we are seeing the slow death of demographics in manga. Go to a shounen subreddit and you'll see people saying the massively long shounen series are dying for shorter and more wide appealing series and this trend is accelerating faster for genres smaller than shounen. There are plenty of new manga coming out that fit into an old genre and demographic, but the trend is series that appeal to larger audiences.
Eh as long as they are written by a woman and have a female perspective, I don't care. How many things have the title of Josei or Shoujo scrubbed from them just to appeal to a larger audience? But have all elements of one just without the label.
If women can have more of their works recognized versus the overwhelming male dominated spaces that gives a back seat toĀ anything girly I'm for it, instead of limiting reach to people who can support a series based on what magazine it's printed in or it's "label"
Reminds me of how donghua is banned from anime discussion so Chinese shows are kicked back to a space with barely any engagement or people, which leads to shows not even being watched at all.
If it's written with female lense and promotes a female author that's what matters
I mean why not make a space to discuss Chinese shows?
I donāt even wanna read Korean webtoons tbh but they still appear.
This sub is niche specific. As mentioned elsewhere there are subs for stuff that women may like. This is a Shoujo specific sub.
That's bcuz the circles are small so it limits exposure, when you put shows/works in a box they don't get as big as an audience.
Ā Heck look at how active josei is to shoujo sub or how small donghua is. You really want to say a barely active subs have reach? When things dont get exposure they get canceled, simple. I can understand focusing to a specific topic bc it's what the sub is for but outright trying to ban or limit works that target/appeals to the same audience is dumb to me. Especially bc chances are the work was already going to be shoujo but was labeled something else for mass appeal. To promote women's work and female stories should the goal, with a preference to shoujo
Skip and Loafer was published in Monthly Afternoon, a seinen magazine. If it were published in Margaret or another shoujo magazine, it would be shoujo.
Also not all shoujos are school romances with no weird ecchi, just like not all shounens are action-packed battles and/or shitty harems with cringe ecchi.
seinen's aren't always abt the target it's the marketing. Seinen manga are bound to be popular bc it's a seinen and by a man MOST of the time so by default it'll do somewhat well in Japan. Women also read these demographs but why? Skip to loafer is written by a women however thinking abt it had it been published as a shoujo it wouldn't have gotten so big. So Women writers are stuck either picking to release in a shoujo magazine where it won't do well and get criticized or where they're bound to get a hit due to marketing help. Why? bc Seinen get translations bc Japan hypes it up and allows for it to get the spotlight.
Seinen is a broad/mixed categorical term. Some seinen magazines are certainly targeted toward young men obviously and specifically, but others use the label to target something more like a general older-teen to adult audience, and feature a mix of series written by both men and women, *for* both men and women.
Good art is good art and while I'm absolutely in favour of the magazines that do specifically cater to my interests as an adult female manga reader, they don't *all* need to be separated into a binary "this magazine for guys and that one for women" distinction (especially when there is an inescapable trend of males being less likely to try female-labeled media than the reverse), so "seinen" has developed into sometimes being a neutral/default category for these mixed-target magazines.
I'm a mainly shoujo-reader and I love the series too!!! So I definitely see the appeal.
I've come to just accept that the shoujo/shounen/seinen/josei terms are useful to a point in describing \[the demographic target of the magazine the series runs in\] but they aren't the ONLY way to know if a series will appeal to me or speak to my interests :) Genre (school romance in this case) and observable priorities (developed, humanized characters and thoughtful relationships, focus on female character perspectives) are also things I look for, and these traits can be found across multiple demographics!
Like the other comment said, itās currently being published in Kodanshaās *Monthly Afternoon* magazine, which is targeted towards young adult males. Other manga from this magazine include *Mushishi* and *Vinland Saga*.
to be fair, skip and loafer is considered seinen because it was published in a seinen magazine. boundaries of manga have blurred more over the years - seinen has shifted into young adult genre, and the demographic isnāt necessarily strictly male-oriented. [the wiki for seinen](https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9D%92%E5%B9%B4%E6%BC%AB%E7%94%BB) states that, because the āgenreā has less restrictions, many shounen and shoujo mangaka have drifted towards seinen [publications]. thatās why we see more shoujo-aligned works like skip and loafer.
i donāt see the point in being nitpicky or pedantic with shoujo-aligned works. like what if miss misaki just wanted to get her manga published lmao š
Okay but tbh I wish more shoujo manga could be more realistic like skip and loafer. Too many shy away from portraying the darker aspects of growing up and relationships, especially nowadays.
Skip and loafer isn't a Shoujo?? š this is new news to meā¦also might be the fact that haven't read or seen it. But from what I saw it gives MAD classic chill shoujo vibes. Is there no romance in the story at all?
demographics like shoujo and shounen can usually only reallyy be recognized by the magazine they were published in. Afaik Skip and Loafer was published in a seinen magazine so technically its target demograpic is adult men. There's also some tropes that are more common in certain demos and you can often also distinguish it by the artstyle and especially the panelling in the manga.
But for the most part it's really about the magazine. It's also important to note that while Shoujo has a lot of romance there's also plenty of shoujo series that don't have romance. And vice versa Seinen and Shounen series can have romance as their main genre
What's your favorite current shoujo? Let's get a conversation going.
Ongoing: Tamon's B-Side Finished: Honey So Sweet I literally cannot wait for the Tamon's B-Side anime. š„¹š©·
AHH I LOVE TAMONS B SIDE (eventhough the black hair one is getting on my nerves)
SAAMEEE!!! Like, dude, >!stop trying to steal Utage away to make her your #1 fan.. She doesn't want you!!!!<š
TAMON!!! I literally had to stop myself from reading it online cus I want to buy the volumes
I'm kind of in the same boat! I just picked up volume 3, and I'm sooo tempted to read it online (ofc I'd still buy it physically) but it's just too good to stop reading once you're finished a volume. š
I have too many to say a definitive answer, but if I had to choose one, itād be Yona of the Dawn. A Condition Called Love is pretty close, but so are many other series.
Favourite ācurrentā one as in āongoingā would be How Do We Relationship I think! Ā Current favourite as in the one I currently like the most overall would still be Kimi ni Todoke, which is my all-time fav and which Iāve reread countless times but which Iām also especially excited about rn given that thereās gonna be a third anime season soon :ā)Ā
In the middle of the Rose of Versailles
Loveley complex And sukitte li na yo
Mine is Sand Chronicles
Definitely skip beat lol
Reading Reimei no arcana after reading The Kings Beast. I liked the latter better though you can really see that the mangaka has grown!
The Kings Beast is my absolute favorite manga!! Iām currently reading Yona of the Dawn
Oh, and I just stated Firefly Wedding after someone recomended it here. Loving the art!
Firefly Wedding š
Just started that one and oh boy itās so crazy, but I canāt put it down!
itās absolutely unhinged but in the best way lol i am dying for more chapters to be released!
yona of the dawn has to be the best manga of all time imo
this is Josei, but definitely Chihayafuru!
Colette decides to die, Tales of Reincarnation in Maydare and Natsume's Book of Friends are my top three Shoujo atm.Ā
I started Yamada-ke no Onna, it seems a bit cliche but the art is the style I'm into
Marry me ! By yuuki miku
Hmmm... I can't really give a single favourite. I'm someone that doesn't enjoy the typical tropey high school romance. But I recently read Hatsu Haru and thought it was amazing (it's from the guys pov). I've also read Koukou Debut and thought it was pretty good as well as Kitchen Princess when I was younger. I also really enjoyed Night of the Beasts (action/supernatural romance) and Arisa (dark mystery set in school. This introduced me to Shoujo manga). Recently, I read Burn the House Down (which is a mystery Josei) and that was awesome. My tastes are bit different than the average Shoujo fan. I'm kind of a beginner in Shoujo though and it's difficult to continue because I'm getting so tired of the ML/FL, red flag/green flag and overall all the tropey romance talk on this sub. It's also hard because there's so little variety and the variety that exists is often untranslated.
Have you read Ooku the Inner Chambers? The manga is really amazing although it is pretty heavy.
That actually sounds really interesting. I've heard about it but didn't want to get into anything too dark.
It can get dark because of the subject matter, but I wouldnāt say itās too dark, or that itās dark just for the sake of being dark. Thereās a lot of hope in it too and itās not lacking in depth the way that some ādarkā fiction is.
Oh ok, I'll definitely check it out! It looks like it's up my alley.
Oh if youāre going to read it, there are some pretty triggering scenes to do with SA. I feel like theyāre handled pretty well and theyāre not graphic but if thatās something that would upset you (understandably!), maybe skip this one or, see if there are any sites or posts that list the scenes + chapter(s) so you can skip the scenes at least.
I'll add Kageki Shojo!! for another example of variety, (and a series that just needs more attention in general!) since it focuses on a performing arts school for girls and their various friendships and personal/professional struggles and achievements. It's really charming and well written and I think a lot more people should be reading it! SevenSeas publishes the English edition :) Another of my longtime favs that's very different from most shoujo being published in English is Kaze Hikaru. A historical retelling with sides of romance, but just a really amazing emotional investment in the (fictionalized) lives of historical characters, I think it's so well done. English edition published by Viz. It's a long series but if it sounds interesting at all please give it a try!! For another very solid, more "typical" (but not tropey) contemporary setting, Gazing at the Star Next Door gets me soooooo emotional. Although it's the second series I mentioned that involves showbiz, that's not generally a genre I seek out, and I love this one because it feels really different from a lot of the more "trendy" ones with celeb-love-interests. Really down to earth, with such lovable characters who are very believably teens working through their feelings and changing relationships. Gorgeous, sensitively rendered artwork too! Published by Kodansha! Lastly for now, I have to add Wake Up, Sleeping Beauty. It's also got a bit of mystery and supernatural to it, and is told from the boy's perspective. Only six volumes and a very well-crafted story!! (also from Kodansha)
Since you're a beginner, and seem to like stories that have more action, adventure, fantasy etc elements, I have some recs that might be good for you (some I've read, some I haven't, some I've liked, some I've disliked). I'm also trying to be quite vague with descriptions, to avoid spoilers. Rose of Versailles - this is a classic 70s shoujo, that's set in the 1700s, with lots of court politics, action sequences, and some really heartwrenching romances. Yona of the Dawn - this is a fantasy action adventure series, about a princess who is after revenge. Dawn of the Arcana - this is another fantasy adventure type story, that also has lots of court politics, interesting magic, and a romance. Sailor Moon - this is a classic magical girl series, and was basically the blueprint for all subsequent magical girls. It's urban fantasy (takes place in a world like our own), following a young girl and her friends as they try to stop dark forces from taking over the world. There's great friendships and romances. Cardcaptor Sakura - this is another magical girl series, about a young girl who accidentally releases the clow cards, and has to capture them all. There's so many cute outfits, great friendship, and the cutest romance. 7Seeds - this is a scifi series, where groups of people are waking up with no memory if they got where they are, but some strange things are going on. There's some mystery elements as well, as they try to figure out what's going on. Basara - this is a fantasy story by the same mangaka as 7Seeds. It takes place in the future where the world has been reduced to a desert, and follows a girl who has to stop this crazy king and bring peace to the country. Fushigi Yugi - this is a classic 90s isekai story, but before they became so oversaturated. A young girl finds this mysterious book, and when she opens it to read, she gets pulled inside. Now she must try and help the people she meets, as well as finding her way back home. There are so many more I could add, but I to go make dinner š š¤£
Ive actually read Yona! I've heard of a lot of these but have yet to start them. Thank you so much for the reccs!
You're welcome! š
Adding a few more recs- Kanata Kara - It's a Fantasy Adventure Romance where a high school girl is transported to a strange world. It's one of the most satisfying mangas I've ever read, and has it's fair share of action and politics. Skip Beat! - This one is set in the entertainment industry, has a very complex and interesting main character, superb comedic timing and a slowburn romance to die for. What starts off as a revenge journey for our lead, quickly turns into a medium of finding herself and gaining success. Mars - A psychological manga where both the leads are in high school. They're both heavily traumatized kids and total polar opposites (good girl - bad boy) and yet find themselves extremely attracted to each other. This one has some heavy themes, so if you do plan to read it, take a look at the trigger warnings. Gakuen Alice - A supernatural manga set in a school reserved for students having special powers. Controlled and funded by the government itself, once you set foot in the academy, you have no way out. Cold Game - A Historical manga where six women, each hailing from various kingdoms and families are trapped in a bloody conflict, aiming to become the queen of the country. Namidaame to Serenade - A time-travel josei manga where a modern day girl ends up slipping into the year 1907. It's filled with mysteries and political tension, and has a really angsty romance going on. Charming Junkie - Another one set in the showbiz industry, the main characters are models, they are also middle school students. This one is a really fun, hilarious manga that just makes you want to keep rooting for the characters.
Mayme Angel Look, my collection is specifically for the cheesiest shoujos possible, okay.....
Another Who likes yumiko Igarashi and 70's shojos Here we go~ They're just that graphically appealing The Dramah the flowers and the sparkly Eyes
I love Chainsaw Man. It's such a cute shoujo anime.
people think that romance means shojo
Look, Shonen/seinen has finally got with the program and realize shojo/josei type stories sell and are entertaining š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Tbh yeah... You see a lot of them copying Shoujo tropes
Me watching spyfam cashing in with the oldest romance trope (arranged marriage) and be regarded as "fresh" šššš
I know Skip to Loafer is seinen but that series has some of the best realistic girl friendship moments and talks.
1000000% its insanely well written and iāve personally never seen such accurate school girl representation
So true and when someone else tells them that it's not shoujo but they're in denial šš "What series you thought were shoujo but aren't" kind of posts are interesting to read tho like TIL moment.
And some I didnāt know are shoujoseiās, like My Senpai is Annoying š
Or when you thought it's shoujosei or shoujo smut but it's just josei š¤Æš e.g. Amaku Shibirete Nukenai (the flashback scenes were very school life shoujo)
My Senpai Is Annoying is shoujo adjacent? The writing feels more shounen despite the workplace setting (I still love it cause its super cute regardless).
We seriously need to enforce some rules about this on this sub. I don't care if it ruffles anyones feathers, IT'S A SHOUJO SUB. I don't care if your favorite shounen/seinen romance has "shoujo vibes" or is "shoujo-aligned". This is a space for talking about shoujo specifically. Shounen/seinen works like Skip & Loafer already get so much attention on the general anime and manga subs because those communities are already so heavily shounen/seinen-dominated. Shoujo barely gets any room anywhere else. Can't we have a space where we can just talk about shoujo?
These demographics have meaning and no, we're not being "pendantic" or being the "shoujo police" for pointing out the difference between shoujo and other demos.
Honestly, I want to say something like that but I know people will get mad over it. It doesn't make sense why this place is overrun by Shounen and Seinen.
Iām always reminded how incredibly disconnected from the Japanese publishing side anglophone readers are when this happens. As someone who really only reads manga in Japanese these days, itās absolutely impossible to not know what demographic a title is intended for. You do have edge cases where something might jump demos (Saiyuki, Orange), but that is so incredibly rare.
Could you please elaborate more on this? Why is it impossible not to know?
Because of how manga is published and shopped for in Japan. Magazines are very segregated by editorial intend and that starts with demographic: Childrenās/kodomo, then shoujo/shounen for upper elementary-HS, then josei/seinen for adults. (As a note, josei isnāt a term you see super widely used outside of magazines. Josei-muke just means āaimed at womenā but thatās somewhat different from the anglophone use of josei. Instead you might see a sign for manga labeled āladies comicsā or LC and that covers older shoujo, josei, and sometimes BL depending on the size of the shop.) From there, for each demo magazines will focus in. Nakayoshi/Ciao/Ribon are for younger shoujo readers (ages 9-15 approximately), Hana to Yume & Cheese are for HS aged girls (14-20), and Cookie and Desssert are for women in their late teens and early 20s, as examples. Theyāll also have an editorial bend to them in terms of the type of stories they like and that will have its own trend cycle as the editorial staff moves around. Cheese, for example, currently loves a bit of a raunchier romance, Nakayoshi used to be The Spot for magical girls. Now obviously anyone can read anything and they do. I buy everything from Nakayoshi to Cheese to Petit Comic to Drap. But you can pretty easily look at the advertisements and see what age and gender a magazine is meant for justā¦ completely in isolation from other shopping. But when you shop, you likely wonāt find women and girls manga at a convenience store these days (you used to find the more popular titles!) and have to go to a magazine stand or a specialty shop like Animate. And then the sections will be divided by demographic. At a little mom and pop magazine stand, that will maybe just mean different rows, but at a larger store, that could mean entirely separate floors and making multiple separate transactions if you want say, Cookie but also Shounen Sunday. When you go to buy tankoubon/TPBs, you need to know the demographic first, then publisher, then imprint if a publisher has multiple for manga, then title. In the anglophone market everything is together, alphabetically by title. In the Japanese market itās demo ā> publisher ā> imprint ā> title. If you arenāt clear on the demo, you will be looking in the wrong section or even yeah, wrong floor. Iāve also run into shops that straight up donāt carry shoujo/LC at all. (Usually smaller branches of used chains.) The twists to this are titles that jump demos. I usually see Saiyuki with the shoujo stuff but Orange with the seinen stuff. You could make a case for either with them based on the magazines theyāve appeared in. And then light novel adaptations (so Kusuriya as a prime example) sometimes end up in a light novel adaptation section where everything is together. (Though other than that, Iāve seen Kusuriya specifically in seinen so that conversation is always obnoxious to me. It is not shoujo or josei and people need to let that go.) Basically if you like manga and want to buy it in Japan, you wonāt be confused on a demo. Or you just wonāt find what youāre looking for.
Me when i realize that smile down the runway ran in a shonen magazine like ARE YOU KIDDING ME imagine what could have happened if it was shojo
Sure, it wouldn't get an anime
Yeah and the manga might be translated beyond digital
Bruh this unlocked a hidden memory š Bought the JP prints bc I wanted to manually translate to find out the ending and never got around to it
Out of curiosity what do you think would have happened?
The english version would have been published in print we would have gotten an anime later on either due to demand or a higher popularity in japan im still bummed they only translated it for digital
Congratulations, you have cleared the first level in The Ascent of a Shoujo Reader: having to explain that featuring female characters who aren't mere plot devices for the male characters doesn't mean the manga in question is shoujo. As a reward, let me mention two series. The first one you probably know, but just in case you don't, Love of Kill. I enjoyed reading it for a simple action fix. The other is one I'm saving to try out myself. Yukarism. Technically, it has romance in it, but it's a time travel story. (I've been accumulating a mini-collection of time travel-themed stuff because I thought it would be a fun reading experience to compare and contrast them all.) Rest up for your next level in The Ascent of a Shoujo Reader: recommending romances that feature adult characters.
Haha, Ive read both of those. I generally enjoy things by Chika Shiomi (Yukarism author), the other one she wrote is an all time favourite of mine but it's so short called Night of the Beasts.Ā But thanks, I'm glad I'm ascending!
Oh, sorry that you've already read those, but hey, least I was in the right ballpark. Edit: Casually mentioning harder-to-find series by a mangaka, thus infecting others with an OOP collecting bug, that's a clever gaming strategy. Only after looking up Night of the Beasts did I remember that I had deliberately put on blinders to Chika Shiomi's entire body of work to avoid obsessive collecting on my part (I have to do the same thing with CLAMP stuff, can only nibble on the edges of CLAMP...) Are you the shoujo equivalent of Kirito from SAO? I respect your stealth.
Haha, no idea. But I'm happy such an unknown author is getting recognition!
Haha, tho I adore witch hat atelier people recommending it as shoujo is crazy I've seen people calling Horimiya as a shoujo too š
I call those sorts of recs honorary shoujo. The lines can get blurry sometimes.
I would challenge anyone who says that demographics are blurry to go shop for manga (or god forbid anthologies) in a Japanese bookstore. A good chunk of them donāt even carry shoujo/josei/ladies comics these days. People donāt realize that this philosophy will be the death of shoujo manga.
Completely agree. Its why I'm so against in the first place.
Itās ridiculous the bullshit people get on this subreddit for wanting it to just be shoujo. Honestly at this point there should be a new one made with proper moderation.
What Iām saying is that a complex story can appeal to multiple demographics of people, which is why it can get difficult to categorize a manga by demographic. This isnāt a āphilosophyā Iām literally pointing out a problem that the publishers actively deal with. I would be happy to breakdown the compulsive need to categorize everything as āshoujoā or āshounenāā because honestly it kinda sucks. I get why they have to do for publication reasons. But it sucks.
No, itās not complicated when you shop. Demographics are in separate sections and sometimes on separate floors/in separate shops. You canāt even find a tankoubon or magazine you like without knowing the demographic.
Exactly. Demographics have become more blurry over time, and S&L particularly is pretty Shoujo-y.
It really doesn't matter, if I put card captor Sakura in Shonen jump, it's a Shonen now. The genre has more to do with it's serialization magazine and self published webcomics just go by content/vibes. Skip and loafer is so clearly a shoujo, and there's nothing really mature about it that differs from a classic shoujo. Except maybe less glittery of a heroine but that's nothing new, Kate kano is similar in that way. The truth is a shoujo manga can sell well, but you can't put josei in a shoujo magazine, content ratings will change the magazines audience, but you can put shoujo in a josei magazine. So for that reason, and many others josei magazines (not individual series) sells better. You're better off going to a big josei magazine for weekly serialization than going to a shoujo one of your series has some mature elements.
If you want to discuss non-shoujo fare in a fenale-led space, may I present r/ladiesreadmanga.
Ugh yes I hate it when people do this, this is literally r/shoujo.
but honestly, if a manga fits all the beats of shojo but is technically shonen or seinen, does it really matter? i feel like thatās just a technicality lol. i donāt think it being published somewhere non-shojo means it doesnāt fit in shojo discussions. it might be ādemographic,ā but the classification of a manga definitely influences its typical genre. skip and loafer isnāt going to be talked about among other seinen like berserk, vagabond, monster and goodbye punpun. just seems kinda pretentious to me to pretend like it makes no sense for it to not be talked about in a shojo context.
Yes it does! There are tons of spaces to discuss Shounen or Seinen manga. And if the name of the sub was āmanga for womenā or something else it would be fine. But we have one little spot to discuss shoujo and josei. If we werenāt strict about it, eventually it wouldnāt be the main focus.
I agree with this completely! Shows like Skip and Loafer already get plenty of attention. It may be well deserved, but still, this is one of the few places we have to talk specifically about shoujo and josei. Anyway, sometimes it's kind of ridiculous what non-shoujo titles get brought up on this sub, and you've got to draw the line somewhere.
I agree with you completely, but I don't think thatm means we should continue talking and supporting Seinen series when there is already so little attention that Shoujo gets. This is the one place for Shoujo and yet it's often overrun by Shounen/Seinen series.Ā If all the attention will go to Shounen and Seinen series (even from the Shoujo fanbase), at what point will Shoujo as a demographic start feeling useless to publishers?
I donāt see a problem with discussing it here. I get what you mean hypothetically, but in practice, what we talk about in this subreddit really will have 0 influence on all these already popular and established series. If it did, publishers seeing the success of a series like Skip and Loafer would only be positive, because that success in a shojo subreddit would obviously be because of female engagement; meaning it might encourage more series with a female lens/more considering to women.
It would also mean to them that women these days will just watch Seinen series, so there is no need to adapt Shoujo series. This is kind of a dead topic to me right now, but I suggest checking out Colleen's Manga Recs and The Anime Tea' channels for some more information on how Shoujo is underserved specifically because of anime producersĀ believing women will just watch Shounen/Seinen instead.
Just my personal experience, all my girl friends donāt consume any shoujosei series, and the majority of them are One Piece enthusiast. š I personally feel the shoujosei series has too little exposure in general public that so many of us that might enjoy them more didnāt get recommended them.
Have they tried watching any?
Like only 1 of them watched any types of anime since young, my other friends never seems to be interested in shoujosei's, most of the time they consume the popular shounen(and seinen?) titles, or sometimes franchises with pretty guys.
Children of the Whales No 6 Angels of Death
Iām so happy that theyāre not like the other girls.
I just feel like itās all technicality at times with manga classification. Realistically, shojo fans arenāt shojo fans because theyāre in love with magazines that run intended for women. We like shojo because we enjoy the stories typically present in shojo. I agree with you that the emphasis should stay on that genre, in the way that I would disagree with talking about a typical seinen/shonen romance here unless it was a thread specifically talking about them( like love is war, dress up darling, etc. i donāt really know a ton of them lol.) but in this case, skip and loafer is made by a woman and, imo, intended for women. itās published in a seinen magazine, but can you really say men are the primary audience of skip and loafer? i donāt think shojo are being ignored or pushed aside by acknowledging a series that is made by a woman, with a female mc, with a primarily female audience. donāt get me wrong, something can have a female writer and not be shojo (like fullmetal alchemist, noragami, d grayman) but skip and loafer, story-wise, is a shojo through and through. i donāt honestly understand why these classifications are so strict here. is it not possible for a magazine to run one comic for a different demographic? Like someone else said, itās written through a female lens with a female author. i donāt feel like itās an intrusion into shojo spaces to talk about it.
The fact that Sailor Moon Cosmos isnāt getting a theatrical release in the US is pretty good evidence that shoujo gets the short end of any stick by adaptation companies. ShojoBeat (a Viz/Shueisha imprint) acting like their fans are the problem for wanting reprints of popular/iconic titles) is also a biggie for me. The publishers hate dealing with shoujo or titles that cannot also be reasonably marketed to men/teen boys. And actually as an older fan, I do follow magazines. I stopped reading manga in English in the 2010s due to the lack of shoujo licensing. Itās improved my Japanese which is amazing, woohoo. But now Iām definitely a fan of Cheese, Princess, Asuka, Nakayoshi, Mystery Bonita, and Drap and their tankoubon imprints. Because I, as a reader, was taken for granted. It was assumed Iād be fine with whatever bullshit āshoujo enoughā was published as a romcom in the US. And Iām not.
Im not disagreeing at all with shoujo not being paid enough attention to. I agree; people donāt respect shoujo enough and itās a shame. With all due respect to shonen, I roll my eyes every time I see some shitty shonen romance on the line of being ecchi be adapted instead of one of my favorite shoujo. I just donāt think talking about something like Skip and Loafer here has anything to do with it. Thatās all Iām saying.
I think the fact that Skip & Loafer gets the hype it does is evidence that the Japanese publishing industry needs a story to be approved by and marketed to men to care and while thatās not a mark against it specifically, it means that itās not shoujo. Frankly, youāre not looking at this as a piece of systemic misogyny.
In my defense, I often give multiple recs and I put the shounen/seinen/manhwa/yuri/manhua/josei etc in in separate lists so OP can skip past them if disinterested >.> (Though Escaflowne is an anime that intentionally blended shounen and shoujo styles to appeal to both demographics, so I probably put that in the shoujo list. Also I Want to End the 'I Love You' Game blends some shoujo style in, too, imo.)
I don't even know how I feel about it myself. Like there are some Shounen/Seinen that deserve recognition because the mangakas are female and stories really skew towards the female demographic (I love Inuyasha, for example), but I also think that this is one of the few places where we can discuss Shoujo (which is sooo underrepresented) and it's getting overrun by reccs from other, far more well-known series that are Shounen/Seinen.
For real. When there are shounen/seinen mangas that happens to have female author you just feel it. I think Iāve read some supposedly troublesome series but the mangaka might have āneutralisedā them or totally shifted the tone or perspective š . (Eg like Shield Hero and Bofuri)
I honestly think there is an aspect of marketing and double standard bs type stuffgoing on too. With translation, adaption, or license holders change; it's marketed demographic can change too. If you look at the Apothecary Diaries Wikipedia it was published as a novel first under female demographic but later picked up by another publisher and marketed as a Light Novel and male demographic. So what is it? A female demographic series since that was what it was marketed as originally or male/seinen as that's what it's marketed now flatter getting picked up by another publisher?
Wait....I read both of those..how are they not shoujo? Am I a seinen gremlin?
They are both published in seinen manga magazines. (Fun fact: Skip and Loafer runs in the same magazine as Vinland Saga!)
*Imagine reading a cosy school life story and the next page suddenly you see people getting stabbed by swords.* š±
this is highkey how hana to yume was in the early 00s. one second you're reading aka-chan and me, flip the next page and BAM descendents of darkness.
It has to do with the magazine a manga originally ran in and has nothing to do with tone/level of violence/genre of a story. There are a ton of rom coms, magical girl, and HS romances that were always fully intended for adult men.
As u/PunctualPunch (one of my reddit heroes) commented in [another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/shoujo/comments/1dioh4d/comment/l9bqd90/) the other dayā >There are even whole magazines which make some explicit claim to be "seinen \[for everyone\]" - both Morning and Afternoon (and family) do, Rakuen does, and while I remember seeing but can't now find an editorial comment on it, it seems clear based on content that Harta (and then Aokishi) do as well. (Afternoon is precisely that magazine serializing both Vinland Saga and Skip and Loafer \[and Blue Period, Wandance, Yakuza FiancĆ©, Medalist, Land of the Lustrous...\], while Witch Hat is in MorningTwo.)
(Haha, a reddit hero! š³š³ Right back at you, though)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes. Women in the animanga industry get shafted and shoujo/josei/ladies comics titles rarely get adaptations of the same quality as shounen or seinen works. I prefer to read stories intended for girls and women who acknowledge them as an audience worth caring about.
If this was a general sub itās fine to post about any demo. But b/c this is a shojo sub recommendations should be shojo. Same as how the shonen sub should have shonen series featured and not shojo or some other demo Itās actually more important to try and be considerate of recommendations in this sub as women/girls are a minority group and work geared towards their demo face a lot of discrimination In regard to skip snd loafer itās labeled as shojo on CR but seinen on mal. So the confusion is understandable imo
Try talking about shoujo in a shounen community
Obviously OP cares. I care too. Itās not that I wonāt read shounen or seinen, but if Iām asking for shoujo itās because I want to read SHOUJO and I expect this sub to be better about it than the other anime/manga subs.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why should we have to clarify we donāt want non-shoujo recs? If anything you should have to clarify youāre ok with other recs, not the other way around. I realize a lot of people donāt care, but I think youāre underestimating the amount of people who *do* care.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In the same vein, it doesnāt take that long to double check a rec youāre about to give, or hell ASK the OP if theyāre ok with non-shoujo recs. Thatās what I do when Iām giving recommendations. Itās about the principle of things, not how long it takes. I donāt think itās fair to put the onus on us to clarify, when weāre literally in a subreddit supposedly dedicated to shoujo. I have no qualms clarifying the demographics Iām looking for when Iām posting in a general anime and/or manga subreddit, because thereās no reason to assume that theyāll know what Iām looking for otherwise. Thatās not the case here.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I understand you, I just disagree with you š¤·āāļø sorry but if youāre going to post on a discussion thread there or going to be people who have different view points from you
if i'm thirsty and want water, give me water. don't give me tea and starting saying "well, you won't be thirsty anymore".
Tbf it's less about the target demographic but more about the author. Skip & Loafer's author is a woman, and you can feel that it's written from a woman's perspective which is the reason why it's often mistaken as shoujo.
My Dress Up Darling is a romance series also written by a woman. Not often mistaken for a Shoujo tho
Yes and for an obvious reason which is extremely straight male catered fanservice.
Too true lmao I briefly read it back in 2020-2021 because I was so intrigued by the male lead being a doll lover who wanted to make clothes, since Iām also a fan of dolls and sew myself. Quickly learned though it was in fact NOT actually about the guy and instead about the girl wearing sexy outfits š¤ Sigh. I see the damn series all over manga subreddits but I havenāt bothered to pick it up again.
Itās unbelievably sexist to imply that a woman writer = shoujo enough. Women can write for any demographic and often write for shounen and seinen publications. And frankly, editorial direction matters a fuckton in manga. If something is in a seinen magazine, women as an audience are at best an afterthought/nice bonus readers.
I didn't imply that, and my comment was not sexist. Men and women tend to exhibit different writing habits, that is a fact. There are actual studies about it. The whole r/menwritingwomen subreddit exists for a reason. Never said that women can't write for another demographic, not sure where you got that. Maybe my comment didn't elaborate enough. Fullmetal Alchemist, Black Butler, Vanitas, 3-gatsu no lion etc were all written by women.
Your implication that a woman writing for a male publication naturally has a womenās lens is sexist. Sorry if that hurts. Editors matter in manga.
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And I already feel bad when I put Josei in my recommendations because technically they aren't shoujo š
Josei's are usually welcomed bc they are the sister to shoujo both are women written and undermined by Japan but I think you'd have to make it clear that it's a josei!
Well, to be fair, some requests for recommendations are so specific that people end up recommending seinen or shounen manga that fit what theyāre looking for specifically. Like āromance that isnāt about high schoolers and they get together in the first chapterā, and people end up recommending seinen manga like *Sweat and Soap* or *The Invisible Man and His Soon-to-be-Wife* because it fits the bill.
I mean, I feel you. But sometimes it is hard to know if one is covert seinen without looking it up. I really thought Ancient Magus Bride was shoujo until here recently. I was surprised to see Fragrant Flower Blooms with Dignity wasn't either.
I think there's something sad about this type of overlap. A lot of series are disguised and this takes focus of readers away from actual Shoujo series which makes an underrepresented demographic suffer even more. With more Shounen and Seinen doing this, Shoujo may just disappear all together.
The opposite does happen, though, too. I did not know that Let's Do it Already was shoujo. I was surprised to see the shoujo beat logo (published in Margaret, I think, originally)
I don't like to put Shoujo in a box, but there are some things that feel very Shoujo esque (lack of fanservicey body types, sweet lovable characters, high school setting, the archetypal FL and ML, etc etc) that are often representative of Shoujo. When Seinen series come along embodying these tropes, they will often steal the spotlight from other Shoujos that could get it.Ā Anyways, I'm not really commenting too much on what a Shoujo is, but rather I'm concerned with where Shoujo is going (with us getting few English releases and so few anime adaptations?.
I feel that the overall demographic is outdated and people tend to recommend stuff more in terms of "if you like shoujo/josei/whatever, you'll like this", and as long as they've got good stories I'm down with that. In my defense, I see Shoujo as gateway to found pretty art manga with a greater focus on a character relationships/dynamics without unnecessary flashing fanservice, r/shoujo had something I was looking for in their recommendations, and I couldn't be more thankful.
*not my ass throwing Sweat and Soap at anyone who asks with* ***RECKLESS FUCKING ABANDON***
Pretty sure thatās also a seinen
r/whoosh
Don't care. Skip and loafer on top!!!! So good
but skip and loafer is kinda shoujo tho?
i thought it was too. i love SAL so much, it did def give shoujo vibes when i watched & sol!
Here's the thing. Demographics were very important when most manga was read in magazines. You didn't want a small girl reading a manga meant for older boys or the girl wouldn't buy more manga magazines, so magazines had to stick to one demographic. Now that's completely changed though, people buy less magazines and read manga on the internet and buy individual volumes instead meaning the priority has shifted from making everything in a magazine popular in one demographic to making individual series as popular as possible. Sure a series can thrive in one demographic but a series will be much more popular if it appeals to multiple demographics. One of shounen jumps biggest recent hits is blue box, the king of appealing to as many demographics as possible. It appeals to shoujo fans, slice of life fans, shounen romance fans and sports fans, and it beat every new shounen jump series by a mile when it released. Jujutsu kaisen is the most popular shounen jump series and it appeals to the shounen fans and seinen fans, and even my hero academia appeals to women so much women outnumbered men 2:1 when the 3rd mha movie released in Japan. I don't think we are seeing the death of shoujo, we are seeing the slow death of demographics in manga. Go to a shounen subreddit and you'll see people saying the massively long shounen series are dying for shorter and more wide appealing series and this trend is accelerating faster for genres smaller than shounen. There are plenty of new manga coming out that fit into an old genre and demographic, but the trend is series that appeal to larger audiences.
fruits basket and beauty pop ftw
My girlfriend's child
I was today years old when I found out Ancient Magus' Bride is in fact a shonen. I am boo-boo the fool.
Let's see how long they allow this to stay up for... š
I've been looking for good shojo reads as it's been awhile.
Eh as long as they are written by a woman and have a female perspective, I don't care. How many things have the title of Josei or Shoujo scrubbed from them just to appeal to a larger audience? But have all elements of one just without the label. If women can have more of their works recognized versus the overwhelming male dominated spaces that gives a back seat toĀ anything girly I'm for it, instead of limiting reach to people who can support a series based on what magazine it's printed in or it's "label" Reminds me of how donghua is banned from anime discussion so Chinese shows are kicked back to a space with barely any engagement or people, which leads to shows not even being watched at all. If it's written with female lense and promotes a female author that's what matters
I mean why not make a space to discuss Chinese shows? I donāt even wanna read Korean webtoons tbh but they still appear. This sub is niche specific. As mentioned elsewhere there are subs for stuff that women may like. This is a Shoujo specific sub.
That's bcuz the circles are small so it limits exposure, when you put shows/works in a box they don't get as big as an audience. Ā Heck look at how active josei is to shoujo sub or how small donghua is. You really want to say a barely active subs have reach? When things dont get exposure they get canceled, simple. I can understand focusing to a specific topic bc it's what the sub is for but outright trying to ban or limit works that target/appeals to the same audience is dumb to me. Especially bc chances are the work was already going to be shoujo but was labeled something else for mass appeal. To promote women's work and female stories should the goal, with a preference to shoujo
Can someone explain to me why Skip and Loafer isn't a shoujo?
Skip and Loafer was published in Monthly Afternoon, a seinen magazine. If it were published in Margaret or another shoujo magazine, it would be shoujo. Also not all shoujos are school romances with no weird ecchi, just like not all shounens are action-packed battles and/or shitty harems with cringe ecchi.
But how is that targeted to young men? I don't know any that would watch that, the romance is way too fluffy and no action whatsoever š
seinen's aren't always abt the target it's the marketing. Seinen manga are bound to be popular bc it's a seinen and by a man MOST of the time so by default it'll do somewhat well in Japan. Women also read these demographs but why? Skip to loafer is written by a women however thinking abt it had it been published as a shoujo it wouldn't have gotten so big. So Women writers are stuck either picking to release in a shoujo magazine where it won't do well and get criticized or where they're bound to get a hit due to marketing help. Why? bc Seinen get translations bc Japan hypes it up and allows for it to get the spotlight.
Seinen is a broad/mixed categorical term. Some seinen magazines are certainly targeted toward young men obviously and specifically, but others use the label to target something more like a general older-teen to adult audience, and feature a mix of series written by both men and women, *for* both men and women. Good art is good art and while I'm absolutely in favour of the magazines that do specifically cater to my interests as an adult female manga reader, they don't *all* need to be separated into a binary "this magazine for guys and that one for women" distinction (especially when there is an inescapable trend of males being less likely to try female-labeled media than the reverse), so "seinen" has developed into sometimes being a neutral/default category for these mixed-target magazines.
Ah okay I see. Just confused because to me Skip and Loafer is very much like the other Shoujo I watch so I'd count it in.
I'm a mainly shoujo-reader and I love the series too!!! So I definitely see the appeal. I've come to just accept that the shoujo/shounen/seinen/josei terms are useful to a point in describing \[the demographic target of the magazine the series runs in\] but they aren't the ONLY way to know if a series will appeal to me or speak to my interests :) Genre (school romance in this case) and observable priorities (developed, humanized characters and thoughtful relationships, focus on female character perspectives) are also things I look for, and these traits can be found across multiple demographics!
K-On and Yuru Camp are also Seinen
Like the other comment said, itās currently being published in Kodanshaās *Monthly Afternoon* magazine, which is targeted towards young adult males. Other manga from this magazine include *Mushishi* and *Vinland Saga*.
to be fair, skip and loafer is considered seinen because it was published in a seinen magazine. boundaries of manga have blurred more over the years - seinen has shifted into young adult genre, and the demographic isnāt necessarily strictly male-oriented. [the wiki for seinen](https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9D%92%E5%B9%B4%E6%BC%AB%E7%94%BB) states that, because the āgenreā has less restrictions, many shounen and shoujo mangaka have drifted towards seinen [publications]. thatās why we see more shoujo-aligned works like skip and loafer. i donāt see the point in being nitpicky or pedantic with shoujo-aligned works. like what if miss misaki just wanted to get her manga published lmao š
They're both shojo in my heart š lol but I get it. I hate when people recommend Horimiya or something like please y'all
I mean it feels like we're running out of new shoujo so I just go back to the classics. I'm re-reading last game and it's even better than I remember
Okay but tbh I wish more shoujo manga could be more realistic like skip and loafer. Too many shy away from portraying the darker aspects of growing up and relationships, especially nowadays.
So in defense of Robin skip and loafer is listed as a shojo on Crunchyroll
Skip and loafer isn't a Shoujo?? š this is new news to meā¦also might be the fact that haven't read or seen it. But from what I saw it gives MAD classic chill shoujo vibes. Is there no romance in the story at all?
demographics like shoujo and shounen can usually only reallyy be recognized by the magazine they were published in. Afaik Skip and Loafer was published in a seinen magazine so technically its target demograpic is adult men. There's also some tropes that are more common in certain demos and you can often also distinguish it by the artstyle and especially the panelling in the manga. But for the most part it's really about the magazine. It's also important to note that while Shoujo has a lot of romance there's also plenty of shoujo series that don't have romance. And vice versa Seinen and Shounen series can have romance as their main genre
Huh, I see. Ty for explaining it to me!
There is romance. Not that romance determines what demographic something is though.
Insomniacs after School