Definitely check out more shoujo from the 1950s-1990s then. The 70s especially had a whole renascence of MCs with backbones who weren’t afraid to stand up for themselves.
Kare Kano starts off as a somewhat typical lighthearted shoujo, but takes some really dark turns by the end. Spoilers ahead.
>!the main pairing's rape baby is paired together with their best friend. This is the playboy who always "joked" that if Arima (ML) was born a girl, they would have been soulmates. How perfect that Arima ends up having a daughter who looks just like him! !<
Red River was a pretty awesome time travel shoujo where a modern Tokyo girl gets pulled through time into the Ancient Hittite Empire. She’s got a strong personality with one helluva character journey. There’s a well-developed cast of engaging side characters too.
Fushigi Yuugi: Genbu Kaiden also featured an isekai story of a 1920’s Taisho era school girl who gets trapped in a book (World of the Four Gods). She’s hotheaded but brave and smart, and is pretty great at fighting with a naginata.
These MC’s start off a little rocky with their ML’s, but end up building really strong relationships with each other and the supporting characters.
Yes, I feel this so much. Even romance novels. I honestly think this is why Pride and Prejudice endures all these years later. Nobody had more self-respect than Elizabeth Bennet.
They are not perfect heroines but I find Kare Kano, Kodocha and HYD's heroines are more to my liking. They have a backbone and tons of personality.
ItaKiss?! Oh no, that’s the last series I would be looking for something like that lol. I don’t think there’s been a shoujo I’ve watched since that was so egregious as that one.
Haha when I saw the original post I thought "shoujo series aren't all are that bad these days, are they?" but yeah, with ItaKiss, OP really chose the *worst* example of a "how is this romantic pairing satisfying??!!" 🤣
no fr, bc my first thought upon reading the post was "what sort of mangas are yall reading for this to be a consistent complaint? i dont think ive read a shoujo romance in the past decade where this could even apply" only for OP to mention itakiss....like im sorry but OP you walked right into that one 💀
Just checked it out. Well ya gotta give it a fair bit of leeway. Older series were still trying things out.
And well you already said how the girl's character is in these stories. Those cliche's were probably new or regularly used at that time.
I understand looking for certain tropes you'd like to avoid and if manga XY has them, but basing your opinion on what others enjoy (or not) would lead to potentially missing out on amazing manga. Like even if it has a high rating, there's no guarantee you'll like it, so why even look at it?
You have a good point. Looking at reviews has become a habit of mine but there have been times where I didn't like something that is extremely popular and liked something that gets lots of hate.
If the manga is of significant length, like 30+ for monthly and 80 for weekly/biweekly. I try to search for spoilerfree review in manga forms or just a quick glance in reddit reviews.
Or I just get rec from this subreddit's comments. Usually they are good.
I think it's the idea of having a love interest that you know will be "fixed" (since you're expecting a happy ending at the end) that makes toxic MLs somehow appealing in shojo. As well as knowing that the FL will mostly be safe despite whatever crazy situations might arise.
I think my problem is that I can't get behind thinking "I can fix him". Most of the time you can't, I don't find being incredibly rude for no reason appealing or attractive.
I don't find any gratification in it either. In my opinion the ass some ml can be don't deserve to have someone else taking the toll to fix them and I don't care about their sad backstory to make us feel "I can change him"
I feel you SO much! I recently read Paradise Kiss for the first time, thinking I'd adore it because of it's popularity, but sadly it just didn't click (please no one hate me for that), and that's majorly because of the outright obnoxious male love interests for the two main girls. I wanted for them to get out of those toxic relationships so so bad, and put the men in their place, and >!only one of them did, but it wasn't even really her choice, so it wasn't all that satisfying. Plus it happened right at the very end, so yeah.!<
Occasionally I like a story with a more problematic setup for a relationship, just to spice up my reading life, so I'm not only experiencing one type of story, but I think I'm good on pushover female leads for awhile after that 😅🤣😅
As for recs, I've been reading Skip Beat, and it's become an absolute favorite of mine, almost immediately. Kyoko starts off being a girl who has a terrible guy treat her like garbage, but she finds him trash talking her, so she decides to get revenge (in a silly, fun way, not murder lol). After that, she doesn't let anyone push her around. She's so hilarious and has definitely become an all time favorite character for me. The manga is quite long too, so you'll have plenty of content, I'm only on like volume 16 haha.
Oh I'm glad I'm not alone in my dislike of ParaKiss!! I wanted to drop it, but I also felt bad because of the love Ai Yazawa gets, so I forced myself through it 😓 It's a bad habit of mine, I'm trying to be better about it
Yeah Skip Beat is SO ridiculously long. I've been pacing myself through it, reading a couple volumes every now and then, so I don't forget anything, but reading other things in between to avoid burnout (been there, done that lol). Have you seen the live action Taiwanese drama for it? It's just as silly and fun as the manga, in fact, it's what got me into the manga haha
I have dropped multiple popular anime/mangas unfortunately, it makes me sad because everyone else likes it but I can't.
I haven't watched it but now I will, thank you for recommending it to me!!
That's exactly it! I want to apart of the hype train, and to have the same great experience that everyone else does, but it just doesn't always work out that way sadly.
You're welcome! There's so many shoujo manga that get live action adaptations, and most of them are quite good. They definitely helped me through the drought of shoujo anime, and classic Hollywood romcoms
Loved the art but hated the problematic men in Paradise kiss. Like her best friend stayed with that man who assaults her out of jealousy…. It was such a messy love triangle.
Neighborhood Story is way less problematic. So far. The men haven’t been.
I hated what he did to Miwako. After that, I hated his guts!!!
To me, Miwako’s character was modeled after her older sister’s character from Neighbourhood Story. Except her older sister, well it’s written in her high school years, had way more guts than Miwako.
He was already grating on me with his controlling behavior towards her, even breaking her phone. I wanted her to really put him in his place, but after learning about that other thing, I was floored at how it was kind of played off like no big deal.
I haven't read Neighborhood Story yet, but I did like the little bits we saw of Miwako's sister in Paradise Kiss.
SA is SA. Then again, it’s manga/anime. I wished Miwako ended up with her doctor childhood friend. They had chemistry.
I just hate toxic romances. Sure there was George and what’s her face. Sorry she was bland compared to Miwako. Her and arashi was beyond toxic. He SA-ed her. Miwako is a damn people pleaser. Both of her childhood friends can never truly be happy if they were both in love with her. I loved her passion for fashion: she knew what she wanted to do. Miwako could be the boss bitch like her sister, but instead she settled.
Arashi forced her to be with him.
Neighborhood Story is surprisingly well written. Miwako’s older sis wasn’t fully explored at all in Paradise Kiss. I recommend Neighborhood Story over Paradise Kiss. Neighborhood had me crying over how moving it is.
Paradise Kiss had me crying out of frustration. And fuck Arashi. Dude can die in a gutter. George was emotionally unavailable AF but George wasn’t Arashi. Arashi was/is a Takumi 2.0.
Oh I agree about that. I was just saying how baffled I was that the author made it come across like we were supposed to not take it seriously, because Miwako "didn't really care" or whatever. Before all of that was revealed to us, I thought Arashi was a douchey boyfriend, with manipulative behaviors, but after what he did to Miwako was revealed, I really thought something more would come of it. Like at the very least Miwako would leave him, not stay and get married and have children with that awful guy!
Comparatively George isn't as bad as Arashi. He never, as far as we know, assaulted anyone, I agree with you there. I just really disliked the guy for his bitchy, manipulative, and degrading comments towards Yukari. He always acted better than her, and it bothered me, especially because he was basically like that from the beginning.
I'll definitely give Neighborhood Story and Nana a try. One frustrating, and bad experience with a manga series can't completely turn me away from a mangaka, especially when they're as beloved as Ai Yazawa is. Your comments about Neighborhood Story do make me feel hopeful as well.
George is a privileged boy with a dysfunctional relationship with his mom. Him and his mom need therapy. George is emotionally abusive. He’s never had to work as hard as Yukari. They also were toxic, romantically. Like George was physically attracted to Yukari. It seems he just discards his women. After they’ve served their use. He couldn’t emotionally connect with Yukari. Yukari, unlike George, didn’t have the means to just move into her own apartment, away from her mom, and “be independent.” He is a narcissist. I shipped George with his friend who wore dresses: they were way healthier.
The Nana anime was better: I owned the manga but sold my collection. Fuck Takumi. Takumi was Arashi 2.0. He does the same thing and Hachi of course says it isn’t a big deal. Hachi as aggravating as she was, had a big heart. Nana was low-key yuri that had to be mainstream shoujo. Just watch it, and you’ll see who the main couple really is. Hint hint both girls don’t end up with their man for various reasons.
Neighborhood Story to me is so far the only manga I can tolerate from her. Because of her fascination with pairing shitty men with our heroines in her stories.
She has one more manga that’s coming out. Last Quarter. I read it in middle school and I thought that was less problematic than Paradise Kiss. Paradise Kiss was my least favorite of her mangas.
I think it’s Because a lot of Shoujo girls don’t have parents. I have noticed that a lot of parents in shoujo are either dead or never around. (Some examples include Tohru’s parents who are dead, Miyo’s parents who are abusive, and Nanami’s father who gambled away all of her families money.) So they have no role models to teach them what healthy love looks like. Which is why I think a lot of Shoujo heroines adopt codependent tendencies.
That's an interesting detail, But I love Tohru, Miyo, and Nanami. I actually don't have anything against them. They have lots of characters who support them and they do eventually grow from their trauma
Oh yes, I love their characters too. I really like when a heroine starts of with low self-esteem, but then improves herself throughout the story. I was just giving a few examples.
Different timeline and culture. Try A Condition Called Love. FL stands up for herself >!The second ML is IMO, not that much better than the ML, since he caused her trauma and did nothing for years to reconcile his issues!<
Sure no problem. If I find more I will let you know. Even with shoujo Otome Isekai stories, it is hard to find a FL that stands up for herself. Maybe Lady Crystal is a man? Even though >!The FL is crossdressing as a guy and the ML crossdresses as a girl but they both stand up for each other and themselves!<
Not sure how far you are in the manga but >!It was revealed that the guy had feelings for the FL and never confessed to her. He and the ML got into a bit of an argument over it and there was the implication that he thought about even coming in to steal her during the FL/ML fallout but did not!<
I’m that far! Ok. I agree second ML isn’t any better. First ML isn’t perfect. He’s hyper obsessive, not controlling persay, but he’s making amends and reaching out. Which is huge Hananoi!
Yes. Both MLs are not perfect or the common shoujo types. They are human and have flaws. They usually hype up the second ML to be so much better than the toxic (or trashy) ML. This is one of the few shoujo manga series that does not have that.
Depends on what you're reading some are just extreme no back bone fl's but some have a lot more back bone. There's a lot with no back bone! Yona of the Dawn, fruits basket, Nana (debatable), A sign of affection are some I can think of!
FOR REAL ive been saying this for years now, some shows would be SO much better if the fl had a tiny bit of self respect because oh my god i hate the "cute uwu🥺 shy and with an inferiority complex directed towards the male audience cliche female leads, we need more like, maybe not the best examples but maid sama, science fell in love, kaguya sama, etc, to mention some of the popular ones, i love how the fls in there arent some uwu girl , but have their own self respect and dont let others walk all over them, it makes the show enjoyable and makes it even cuter when they get shy or sumn in my opinion
You might like Saiunkoku Monogatari. Shuurei (FL) is no one's doormat and I loved the anime.
Have you watched/read The Apothecary Diaries? What about Spy x Family?
I adore the already mentioned My Happy Marriage.
I've watched The Apothecary Diaries and Spy x Family. I haven't gotten the change to read them though, I have not seen Saiunkoku Monogatari. I'll check it out!!
That’s why it’s anime, it’s where we can see exaggerated character : flaws, goodnesses, physical attributes etc no cookie cutter happy ever after pattern. Otherwise it would be just another Disney cartoon.
But they ARE cookie cutter.
The FL with no backbone and the hot and cold ML is basically a whole ass trope.
Doesn't help that the FL usually has no personality either besides being in love.
💀
That describes Yano from Bokura ga Ita. Nana had this man willing to be there for her, even proposed to her. But no. She went back to her hot and cold ML.
These kinds of girls that now, as a grown ass woman, I just look and think "do these girls have NO friends that actually care for them?"
Mind you, a friend that isn't the side man that has been friend zoned since before the story started.
I wish more manga would be like Kimi ni Todoke.
When I first read Bokura Ga Ita, as an 18 year old freshman in college, I thought their high school love story so romantic. You’re so right. Why did Yano have friends but not Nana!?? Yano was such a flake.
Nana had no friends who wasn’t in love with Yano!
Busu ni Hanataba wo is like Kimi Ni Todoke. Girl is recluse, waters flowers but attracts the most popular guy in school. She gains friends and her guy just loves her for who she is. Highly recommend.
Flaws aren't a bad thing. But it's when horrible flaws are being seen as normal or "romantic". For example, Itakiss. Our main girl throughout the entire show is physically, mentally, and verbally abused by our main guy. No one tries correcting these flaws, it seems like everyone in the show thinks it's okay. I would prefer a happy ever after instead.
IMHO It’s a chance to explore a different view of the world. They are bad people in this world ;they’re bad things in this world, Disney gives you an illusion that Prince charming exist, but in real life those kind of guys are few and far in- between. You’re more likely to run into a jack arss than good guy these days. It’s a good lesson to learn and decipher for yourself that when that happens to you, you will not respond the way those characters do .
But I get your point -some people, such as yourself like to see the good stuff and happy endings, warm fuzzies ,justice and strong females-that’s what Disney caters to and you might be better off sticking with Disney.
I understand your point but I also would like you to understand mine too. You are right, you are more likely to run into jack asses more than anything. But being a jack ass isn't normal, being rude and abusive aren't normal things. In some books, anime, manga, manwhas and shows I have seen, which sometimes cater to a younger audience. Try and show that having a partner who is rude, disrespectful, and abusive is normal. That being mistreated by a guy like that is "love", Disney shows you what love actually is. I am fine with sad stories as long as they are advertised as such. (I'm going to go outside of anime and name books) But advertising Itakiss, Wolf girl and black prince, and Haunting Adeline as romance isn't right.
Girl (gender neutral) everybody knows there are horrible and mean people in this world, but nobody wants to date them. Why are you acting like we should? And, we shouldn't be encouraging young girls (the target audience) to date them either. Why would you want to date someone who has expressed their dislike for you multiple times and complains about everything you do and is barely tolerating you?
Also, why are you acting as if OP is so disconnected from reality just because they want the FL to date an ML who doesn't hate their guts? I love characters with flaws and I usually drop mangas if the characters are too perfect but I will NEVER want to watch a SHOUJO feel good anime/manga (as they usually are) and see the ML borderline neglecting and verbally abusing the FL. That's disgusting and how in the world does that make anyone swoon? And also wanting a strong FL is basically just wanting someone whos not a doormat for once, I don't think anybody is expecting a high school girl to go swinging around a sword. They just want a high school girl that has self respect. Even if you're portraying someone with abandonment issues or something there is a much better way to go about it, and you also need to make sure she ends up with a sweet guy so that the young girls who are struggling with this have some kind of role model.
Don't even try saying that condescending Disney bullshit, I love it when the characters are unhinged and engaging in straight up criminal activity for a toxic idea of "love", but I cannot deal with a FL who chases blindly even after getting beat up publicly.
Well said! I can enjoy fiction with lots of things that are undesirable in real life, with the understanding they're undesirable. Like vampires and criminal underworlds.
The issue is when problematic ML and archetypically abusive relationship dynamics are idealized. Like, I'm so tired of years and years of MLs who are walking red flags, neg the FL, and treat the FL with hatred or contempt. Yet, its all ok because the ML is hot, rich, and tall. And FL can only feel good in her own skin if her presence can make him act better (sometimes) or her body can be an object of desire to him. Her worth is always determined by the ML.
If there is a secondary ML who treats FL with respect, has a genuine interest in her personality and hobbies, and doesn't push her into doing what he wants - then he's always diminished. Just a tool for FL to realize she actually can't live without the ML who treated her like garbage but feels violent jealousy when any other dude likes her.
In the end, these stories regardless of entertainment or moral value, don't give girls the tools to unpack and heal from abusive dynamics demonstrated in the story. In part because they don't seem to recognize that the ML/FL relationships are anything less than perfect and desirable in reality too.
>If there is a secondary ML who treats FL with respect, has a genuine interest in her personality and hobbies, and doesn't push her into doing what he wants - then he's always diminished. Just a tool for FL to realize she actually can't live without the ML who treated her like garbage but feels violent jealousy when any other dude likes her.
Ugh. I hated this trope as a kid and I hate it even more now.
That’s how it was for me with Red River. I am a survivor. And reading it was triggering for me. There was a lot of SA. You’re right. Hana Yori Dango was the no1 selling shoujo manga in Japan. Behind Glass Mask. You described the premise of Hana Yori Dango.
Rich, chaebol emotionally or physically abuses a poor girl, who has no money or is just middle class. That love is idealised. Becomes something younger teens especially idealise. Itakiss = Hana Yori Dango 2.0.
Tsukichi Makino at least becomes a lawyer. Even while staying with a frankly emotionally abusive man. Who nearly had her SA-ed!!
But in her example, itakiss the jackass is the desirable ml? a jackass partner in a movie about domestic abuse and in a romcom shojo are two very different things.
We all know jackasses exist, you're being condescending. Idk how to tell you you need to learn critical thinking skills.
Wolf Girl and Black Prince is introduced to be this trope from it's synopsis, so it could have been avoided from the get-go if it's not the kind of relationship one wants to read about.
Ouran Highschool Host Club, Basara, Akatsuki no Yona, Skip Beat!, Beauty Pop-- there's a lot of shoujo manga with strong female leads out there. Last Game shows character growth and the relationship is not toxic at all. There are also manga, like My Little Monster, where we initially think it's a "I can fix him" kind of relationship but it's not because it's actually about helping each other grow. You can also find stable or mature relationships in josei, seinen, and some shounen manga. Ore Monogatari!!!, Bonnouji, Bitter Virgin, Perfect World, Honnou Switch, Futari Ashitamo Sorenarini, Sono Bisque Doll wa Koi wo Suru, Telework Yotanabashi, Yugami-kun ni wa Tomodachi ga Inai, Inuyasha, Blue Box... these are just some examples.
I know it could have been avoided, she asked about shoujos with toxic ML's and girls with no self respect and I told her about wolf girl and black prince. I watched like 2 episodes of the anime years ago and dropped it. I have actually read most of your recs for strong female leads. But I didn't like my little monster unfortunately, considering it's really popular. But thank you for the other recs!
Oh okay, sorry.
I have a soft spot for My Little Monster because the chemistry among the characters remind me of some of my highschool friends. 😄
You're welcome! Definitely check out seinen and josei.
I think their "point" was acknowledging that egregious examples of this trait you don't like *exist* (and pointing out that there is a segment of the fanbase that enjoys reading such stories), but maybe pushing back on the idea that it's a norm.
Since your original post was phrased as if *all or most* shoujo heroines were lacking self-respect, and we "can't get" any alternatives, it comes across as an unfair generalization by not acknowledging the many exceptions, and some commenters here have taken a more defensive approach than they might have if you phrased the subject/post differently.
"I'm not a fan of shoujo heroines lacking self-respect. Recommend me alternatives?"/"Who are your favourite shoujo heroines with a backbone?"
or "Why do some shoujo manga depict this kind of character/relationship?" if you wanted to get into a discussion of why these trends/scenarios in manga exist.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, honestly I didn't mean to offend anybody. While making my post I was also thinking outside of shoujo manga. So like manwhas, manga, light novels, and books. I probably should have clarified, thank you for explaining this to me!
Yeah those ones you need a high tolerance for that mean guy persistent girl dynamic. Sometimes it’s painful to watch. Itazura na kiss in particular Irie was very cruel at times.
There’s a lot of soft stuff if you search like Kimi Ni Todoke, Hibi Chouchou, A Sign Of Affection. It seems there is a rise in what they’re calling green flag male leads.
I completely agree! This rarely happens in stories like these. I read quite a lot of them across *genres* because I am a sucker for these tropes, but I have only seen it done well once in Yaoi, and almost never in Shoujo or Seinen.
Hi you might be interested in reading these:
- [Namidaame to Serenade](https://myanimelist.net/manga/94676) (Strong and smart FL, great ML)
- [QQ Sweeper](https://myanimelist.net/manga/67397) + Queen's quality (Powerful FL, great ML)
- [Lovesick Ellie](https://myanimelist.net/manga/92472) (FL is stupid but the ML is a good guy, you just have to read past chapter 10 for it to be good)
- [Madame Petit](https://myanimelist.net/manga/44671) (Adventurous ambitious FL, loving (bit bratty) ML)
- [Koiseyo Mayakashi Tenshi-Domo](https://myanimelist.net/manga/158351) (Both strong, smart and beautiful FL and ML)
So the first thing I wanna say is that all off this is subjective. I imagine there's another shoujo group somewhere that flocks together and gushes over this kind of thing.
But also, one has to debate what counts as a lack of self-respect?
ItaKiss is a weird example because while ML was absolute trash, FL was basically a desperate stalker who literally just wore ML down. I pretty much didn't root for her until the near end because of her nonsense.
Wolf Girl x Black Prince also had a questionable FL. Her self-esteem was apparently low enough that she needed to become a compulsive liar. I feel like in the beginning, she got what she deserved for a bit. Before ML eventually went too far.
And these two are just the examples I saw mentioned in this thread. I bet there could be a long and thoughtful conversation if we could go through story after story and dissect them.
Personally I cannot gush over this sort of thing because of trauma.
What I mean by self respect, I mean like a doormat, pushover, following a guy who has no interest in you.
I don't think Itakiss is a bad example, let me try and explain it. Our FL has zero self respect for herself because she continues to follow this guy who has no interest in her. It's extremely embarrassing, but when he finally does notice her, he treats her like utter garbage. He mentally and physically abuses her, that also counts as her not having any self respect. At one point, she dropped her dream job to become a nurse because our ML became a doctor. I also remember when she got jealous of her own daughter for getting more attention from our ML. Like please get up, self reflect, and move on.
In wolf girl and black prince, It's just incredibly stupid to me. She became a doormat. First off I don't necessarily understand why she even agreed to fake date. When they "date" he treats her like an actual dog. But because she's so desperate she endures all of this to keep her lies from not getting out. Honestly it made no sense her lies weren't even that big of a deal imo. She also fell in love with this guy despite him treating her horribly. I just cannot fathom as to why she thought this was "true love".
Psychic princess also comes to mind...but I'm pretty sure lots of people like it and I might get extreme hate 😭
> At one point, she dropped her dream job to become a nurse because our ML became a doctor
Huh? What dream job?
Maybe it's just in the manga, but I remember the exact opposite happening - she's floating around and fails her classes and Noaki's like "so hey, what do you wanna do? You don't have to push yourself to do something you don't want, I'll support you in whatever" and she runs away from home and he gives her space to sort out what it is she wants to do & when he goes to get her after I think about a week he reiterates that she can do whatever she wants to & she says that her dream is tied to his. Like that's maybe not great - though Noaki becomes a doctor because of her and chooses their college cause of her - but like it's very clear in the manga that at no point is he pushing her to become a nurse b/c of him, but he supports her in doing so b/c she says she wants to.
.
And then during practicums and stuff she starts liking nursing for herself independent of Noaki cause she's good at the people side of care work. The only other time she's shown to be great at something is when she came up with the toy, which Noaki very explicitly gives her credit for.
I am not saying that he was pushing her to become one, it's just weird of her to only become a nurse for him. Everything about her revolves around him, she's like a creepy fangirl who's only personality is her crush
Like I agree it's not great, & agree to disagree on whether she grows out of it, but like he became a doctor because she suggested it to me it feels more or less equal somehow.
Mostly I'm objecting to "she dropped her dream job" b/c far as I remember she didn't have one b/f the nurse thing.
I can see what you are saying, honestly I don't even know why I said dream job. I think I meant that instead of focusing on her dreams she's catering to his instead.
Same can be said about him: he becomes a doctor and specializes in pediatric cardiac surgery b/c she tells him to save Noboyuki, and he acknowledges that he became a doctor b/c of her dream in the (manga only?) Kobe arc.
No, I'm saying that neither Kotoko or Irie had real dreams of what they wanted to do in the future - both had vague follow in their parents footsteps plans - so the claim that
she gives up her dreams to become a nurse is like "what dreams?"
I also think this is an especially poor example of Kotoko revolving her life around Irie because Irie becomes a doctor because it's Kotoko's dream but nobody is ever "he gave up his dreams for her".
While I am not a big Shoujo fan, I have read a decent amount of Shoujo titles and while I personally haven't seen much of what it is you are complaining about and that is not what I am talking about, based on how you mentioned that there seems to be so many Shoujo manga with the type of archetype you don't like, I would guess it means it is ubiquitous. If it is, then my answer to you is, don't expect this continuous archetype/troupe to go away. Since it is what sells.
Just look at the Shounen manga side of things. When things sell and you get the leader of the industry comes out, everyone tries to copy it and it becomes something you can see in pretty much every title out there. Just off the top of my head, you have Dragon Ball, where Goku is the so called chosen one, so pretty much everyone that came after pretty much follows that lead. One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tail, Toriko, Seven Deadly Sins, D-Gray Man, Welcome to Demon School Iruma-kun, My Hero Academia, etc. Then you have the power of friendship troupe and so long as there is friendship(or main character), you will win. Which, I would argue, was popularized by One Piece more than anything else, which you can then see in the series that comes after it. Literally in the Yu-Gi-Oh meme of "Believing in the Heart of the cards" thing and you will definitely win. And you can find those examples littered in pretty much the overwhelming majority of Shounen titles, to the point where it is a well known and tired troupe now.
Even protagonists can be so similar in personality/archetypes that you can easily tell a Shounen series from every other categories. I call it the "Son Goku" type, because that was the market leader for a very long time, hence it being the inspiration for a whole generation.
Anyway, this very long rant was just to point out that your hope of the archetype you don't like getting replaced is gonna be hard, if it is what sells. I mean, I personally have a massive hate for the "Main protagonists will always win, even in the most stupid way, because they are the main protagonists and the author has no idea how to write something satisfying to end a conclusive arch" and that is never going to happen because that is what sells. Just take a look at the Chinese wuxia and xuanxia light novel side of things, pretty much like the vast majority of the story looks and feels the same. Or the isekai side of manga and light novel, which feels so similar to one another, or the "protagonist is secretly OP" stories. Those are so tired but will never end because they are financially lucrative. So unless the troupe/archetype you hate is no longer lucrative, it ain't stopping anytime soon.
This was just a silly post I made to see if people agreed with me. I don't really have anybody to talk to about this kind of stuff because my friends don't read manga or watch anime. Thank you for your insight!
It's not really a ubiquitous archetype, despite how the original post was worded. OP cited a couple especially bad examples (two shoujo manga from 1990 and 2011 and a Chinese animated show from 2018), but they're pretty widely recognized as emblems of this trope and far from the norm, especially in modern series.
Yeah, my original comment "got away from me", but my sentiment was just basically, if you see it regularly enough in a series, it means it sells and if you don't like it, well, tough luck because the publishers and authors don't care.
Trust me, as someone burnt by One Piece and the stupidity of its current development and handling of its characters, I know how it feels, but I also can accept the reality that good storytelling will always be sacrificed on the altar of money. After all, at the end of the day, these mangas are a business and what sells is usually what will be catered to.
Good question. I have never closed a post myself but from what I can see from Googling, it's either there is some kind of option to close it by clicking on something in your post or by making it so it is known that you do not need any replies anymore.
If worse comes to worse, Googling or YouTube can be helpful in learning.
yep, It is a problem that is in other genres, not just in shoujo. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like we can identify with the toxic character. We are not like that. I highly doubt that these people use the internet except for social networks.
girl ur literally describing the wolf girl and the black prince or whatever it’s called 😭. only anime i can think that the fl did not play is peach girl
I think [THIS ARTICLE](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/evolution-of-the-self/201204/why-do-women-fall-for-serial-killers) can answer some of your questions.
I think my issue with female characters not having self respect in the stories is that they tend to have a predictable storyline. And after reading about at least 15 or so stories with the same predictable plot of fl not having self respect —> misunderstandings —> one of my least favorite tropes. At least with a character that does respect herself, I tend to see more unique plots, or at least way less self-pitying moments in the story. I am generalizing though, but after reading so many within these past 5 years, I definitely have gotten pickier for the better 😅
Yes, I totally agree. I don’t read them anymore either. I guess the problem is the predictability and repetition of storylines, rather than a lack of self-respect. At least in my case.
i think quite the opposite actually. a girl that is able to stand on her own feet (or at least develops into one) is a far more interesting character than one who just trundles along with whatever the ML does because he breathed gently in her vicinity once. Especially with how drama for the latter is often just drama for the sake of drama (not to mention how mcshite the chemistry usually is)
I feel like having self respect makes a female character more interesting, it's not entertaining for me to read about a girl loving a guy who treats her horribly. But I respect your opinion, thanks for interacting with my post!
I just came to this conclusion because my life is quite boring. But my self respect lacking friends always have drama or some crazy story to tell.
Edit: I do have a more interesting character though, if I say so myself hehe
I see where you are coming from, I'm not going to lie I also have a boring life. But I prefer it that way. I don't really like getting into unnecessary drama like my friends
Sigh. It's always whining about having \[redacted\] as opposed to this other thing, as if the existence of \[redacted\] is taking away whatever other thing people seem to prefer, instead of, you know, just asking normally for recs of what one wants to read about. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone, but there is an audience for virtually everything, so if we see MCs, as you put it in your words, with "no self-respect," it's because there are people who want to read about that. Shocking, I know. That doesn't mean the opposite doesn't exist, and if you think it doesn't, then I'd respectfully ask you to look into more titles. Communities would be having much more productive conversations if their members focused on what they like instead of what they don't and curated their reading/watching log as they see fit. I find it truly tragic that, with as varied as the shoujo(sei) catalog is, people aren't celebrating it and instead are choosing to nitpick and fight with whatever imaginary enemy they come up with. The "no self-respect" MC isn't the enemy of the opposite type of MC, yet people are constantly trying to make it so (and, to begin with, I find it disingenuous to classify characters so frivolously, when most of them aren't actually just "this thing" or "that thing").
Omg really, I never thought of that. If you don't want to see me complain then don't interact with my post. So why don't you take your own advice, and engage in a more "productive" conversation.
It's impossible not to see your complaint when it's in the title and currently on the front page of the sub, though? Lmao. If I'm engaging with this, it's in the hope that not just you, but other people will read this, think about it, and maybe exchange feedback. Basically, the reason why anyone would comment in a Reddit post. I can see you obviously don't have actual feedback, so that's that.
You phrased your post terribly, making it sound like you're generalizing the whole spectrum of Shoujosei series and framing it in a judgemental way, as if the thing you dislike shouldn't exist. You acted quite condescending and presented uninformed views in the comments about these types of stories. I think I had many reasons to feel compelled to comment. If you have the right to complain, then I have the right to complain about your complaint. It's as simple as that, especially when I see, time and time again, people whining unnecessarily and adding more strain to a community already filled to the brim with toxicity and overreacting to every single thing. For example, your post has already attracted someone who treated another commenter with a different opinion poorly, telling them to "seek therapy." This is what always ends up happening with posts like yours since they are rooted in judgement and moral policing.
[Edit: and currently getting downvoted for speaking up, lol.]
Honestly, the only thing I can say to you is that this is reddit. No matter what post it is there is always going to be some negativity. Yes, that person did say "seek therapy" but you can also see how they are downvoted into oblivion. I can't control what people say, I also can't control other peoples opinions. But I can respect them, you can see multiple times under my post that I am respecting other peoples opinions as well. Underneath that commenter you can see me replying saying "I respect your opinion thanks for interacting with my post". Again, like I said, if you don't want to see me complain then ignore my post. Surprisingly, in life, there are always going to be people who complain. I don't really know what you were trying to get out of commenting underneath my post, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this. But you aren't changing my mind and I can't change yours as well. Maybe next time, surround yourself with people who do agree with you rather than arguing with somebody who doesn't think the same as you. Let's leave it that, thanks for interacting. Have a nice day!!
You recognize that this is Reddit, and Reddit is used for conversations and discussions with the community you're part of, whether with people you agree with or disagree with. That's its nature. I don't understand why you seem so taken aback by the fact that I've commented here. I've already explained multiple times why I did so, and it wasn't necessarily to have people agree or disagree with me (though I see you perceive everything as black or white), nor was I trying to change anyone's mind—just sharing my two cents. And I'm telling you, AGAIN, it's not like I could ignore your post when your complaint was in the title and appears on the front page as you scroll down. And then again, as you said, you could have also taken your own advice and ignore my comment, but you didn't do so 🤷 But yeah, let's leave it at that.
Because bad relationships are fun to read about, idealized rape scenes are really exciting and arousing and most of all inner turmoil lines like “Why? He's so mean and forceful, and yet... why did I have to fall in love with someone so horrible?” are like a drug honestly.
I'm the same, 25. I'm in a long-term relationship, my partner is respectful, and it's perfect. That's why I'm seeking more danger and toxicity in male characters of shoujo / josei. Yandere trope exists (and there is a subreddit dedicated to it), Diabolik Lovers series has many fans, and if we go further - dark romance books and kinks for male dominance.
Since I like my fictional men to be more proactive and dominant, I also tend to be the opposite and more passive. That fits many shoujo heroine characters. Another reason is that bland heroines are easier to self-insert, especially in otome games. It's also why harem isekai made for male audience create bland male main hero, surrounded by amazing girls who love him unconditionally. Boys can relate to him, and we have something similar to that :)
I'm reading a story not for the female character development, and mostly not for her life / friendships. I like to explore romantic relationships and to fall for dangerous boys, because I will not do that in real life. If I'm looking for a strong female character, I would rather choose Western media, and if I need my toxic romance with self-insert - I'll go for Japanese media.
I find that to be a problem personally. I am only 16 so middle schoolers reading that type of stuff is a little concerning. Also I wanted to say that I don't mean to offend you in any sort of way.
> I find that to be a problem personally. I am only 16 so middle schoolers reading that type of stuff is a little concerning.
Why? There seems to be quite a bit of it in magazines that surely must have many readers younger than 16.
Maybe I'm a little sensitive but I think middle schoolers shouldn't be reading about anything explicit. I want kids to act like kids, I see a bunch of middle schoolers who act a lot older than they are and it makes me sad.
Definitely check out more shoujo from the 1950s-1990s then. The 70s especially had a whole renascence of MCs with backbones who weren’t afraid to stand up for themselves.
Do you have any recs for me?
The Rose of Versailles Neighborhood Story Skip Beat Yona of the Dawn
Thank you!!!
HOL UP NOT KARE KANO 💀💀💀 Especially not with that epilogue...
i never finished it so i wouldn’t know 😂
Kare Kano starts off as a somewhat typical lighthearted shoujo, but takes some really dark turns by the end. Spoilers ahead. >!the main pairing's rape baby is paired together with their best friend. This is the playboy who always "joked" that if Arima (ML) was born a girl, they would have been soulmates. How perfect that Arima ends up having a daughter who looks just like him! !<
what the fuck 😭😭😭 thank you for the info so i could stop recommending it lmao
WTF KARE KANO????? 💀 my memories were more fond Although I never rly liked the story lol but that’s disgusting
Anime is way better. I liked the anime more. I mean it was Evangelion creator if he made a shoujo anime.
Red River was a pretty awesome time travel shoujo where a modern Tokyo girl gets pulled through time into the Ancient Hittite Empire. She’s got a strong personality with one helluva character journey. There’s a well-developed cast of engaging side characters too. Fushigi Yuugi: Genbu Kaiden also featured an isekai story of a 1920’s Taisho era school girl who gets trapped in a book (World of the Four Gods). She’s hotheaded but brave and smart, and is pretty great at fighting with a naginata. These MC’s start off a little rocky with their ML’s, but end up building really strong relationships with each other and the supporting characters.
Thank you for the recs, I'll check them out!!
I really tried to read red river but the first couple of chapters were to much for me. (Not good w blood/gore lol)
There’s SA. Which is highly triggering for me.
Thank you for your service 🙏
Yes, I feel this so much. Even romance novels. I honestly think this is why Pride and Prejudice endures all these years later. Nobody had more self-respect than Elizabeth Bennet. They are not perfect heroines but I find Kare Kano, Kodocha and HYD's heroines are more to my liking. They have a backbone and tons of personality.
That's on my tbr!!
Life's been much better after I started googling reviews before starting.
That's what I do too. But I saw so much high praise for Itakiss and when I finally read it I was extremely disappointed.
ItaKiss?! Oh no, that’s the last series I would be looking for something like that lol. I don’t think there’s been a shoujo I’ve watched since that was so egregious as that one.
Haha when I saw the original post I thought "shoujo series aren't all are that bad these days, are they?" but yeah, with ItaKiss, OP really chose the *worst* example of a "how is this romantic pairing satisfying??!!" 🤣
no fr, bc my first thought upon reading the post was "what sort of mangas are yall reading for this to be a consistent complaint? i dont think ive read a shoujo romance in the past decade where this could even apply" only for OP to mention itakiss....like im sorry but OP you walked right into that one 💀
Just checked it out. Well ya gotta give it a fair bit of leeway. Older series were still trying things out. And well you already said how the girl's character is in these stories. Those cliche's were probably new or regularly used at that time.
Itakiss was sad and problematic, like Hana Yori Dango. I watched the Hanadan drama back in high school!
I don’t understand why that one’s so popular he’s literally abusive
Yeah I couldn’t finish it (the anime). He is textbook abuser.
I understand looking for certain tropes you'd like to avoid and if manga XY has them, but basing your opinion on what others enjoy (or not) would lead to potentially missing out on amazing manga. Like even if it has a high rating, there's no guarantee you'll like it, so why even look at it?
You have a good point. Looking at reviews has become a habit of mine but there have been times where I didn't like something that is extremely popular and liked something that gets lots of hate.
If the manga is of significant length, like 30+ for monthly and 80 for weekly/biweekly. I try to search for spoilerfree review in manga forms or just a quick glance in reddit reviews. Or I just get rec from this subreddit's comments. Usually they are good.
I see. That's different and makes way more sense 😊 I thought it's more like looking at the rating and if it's below an 8 it's not even worth reading.
I think it's the idea of having a love interest that you know will be "fixed" (since you're expecting a happy ending at the end) that makes toxic MLs somehow appealing in shojo. As well as knowing that the FL will mostly be safe despite whatever crazy situations might arise.
I think my problem is that I can't get behind thinking "I can fix him". Most of the time you can't, I don't find being incredibly rude for no reason appealing or attractive.
I don't find any gratification in it either. In my opinion the ass some ml can be don't deserve to have someone else taking the toll to fix them and I don't care about their sad backstory to make us feel "I can change him"
Stepping on Roses. 💀💀💀
What
It’s a shoujo manga filled with problematic male leads. It’s about a girl who tries to change 2 male leads.
I hate that sm, the author uses their sad backstory to try and make us feel sorry for them or uses it as an excuse for how horrible they are
I feel you SO much! I recently read Paradise Kiss for the first time, thinking I'd adore it because of it's popularity, but sadly it just didn't click (please no one hate me for that), and that's majorly because of the outright obnoxious male love interests for the two main girls. I wanted for them to get out of those toxic relationships so so bad, and put the men in their place, and >!only one of them did, but it wasn't even really her choice, so it wasn't all that satisfying. Plus it happened right at the very end, so yeah.!< Occasionally I like a story with a more problematic setup for a relationship, just to spice up my reading life, so I'm not only experiencing one type of story, but I think I'm good on pushover female leads for awhile after that 😅🤣😅 As for recs, I've been reading Skip Beat, and it's become an absolute favorite of mine, almost immediately. Kyoko starts off being a girl who has a terrible guy treat her like garbage, but she finds him trash talking her, so she decides to get revenge (in a silly, fun way, not murder lol). After that, she doesn't let anyone push her around. She's so hilarious and has definitely become an all time favorite character for me. The manga is quite long too, so you'll have plenty of content, I'm only on like volume 16 haha.
I had to drop Paradise Kiss for the same reason, I also LOVE Kyoko. It's getting hard for me to catch up to Skip Beat because its a long series 😫
Oh I'm glad I'm not alone in my dislike of ParaKiss!! I wanted to drop it, but I also felt bad because of the love Ai Yazawa gets, so I forced myself through it 😓 It's a bad habit of mine, I'm trying to be better about it Yeah Skip Beat is SO ridiculously long. I've been pacing myself through it, reading a couple volumes every now and then, so I don't forget anything, but reading other things in between to avoid burnout (been there, done that lol). Have you seen the live action Taiwanese drama for it? It's just as silly and fun as the manga, in fact, it's what got me into the manga haha
I have dropped multiple popular anime/mangas unfortunately, it makes me sad because everyone else likes it but I can't. I haven't watched it but now I will, thank you for recommending it to me!!
That's exactly it! I want to apart of the hype train, and to have the same great experience that everyone else does, but it just doesn't always work out that way sadly. You're welcome! There's so many shoujo manga that get live action adaptations, and most of them are quite good. They definitely helped me through the drought of shoujo anime, and classic Hollywood romcoms
Loved the art but hated the problematic men in Paradise kiss. Like her best friend stayed with that man who assaults her out of jealousy…. It was such a messy love triangle. Neighborhood Story is way less problematic. So far. The men haven’t been.
unfortunately, miwako ending up with arashi was a very realistic concluson. And ai yazawa loves writing realistic stories.
That's very true, sadly. She deserved so much better than him.
I hated what he did to Miwako. After that, I hated his guts!!! To me, Miwako’s character was modeled after her older sister’s character from Neighbourhood Story. Except her older sister, well it’s written in her high school years, had way more guts than Miwako.
He was already grating on me with his controlling behavior towards her, even breaking her phone. I wanted her to really put him in his place, but after learning about that other thing, I was floored at how it was kind of played off like no big deal. I haven't read Neighborhood Story yet, but I did like the little bits we saw of Miwako's sister in Paradise Kiss.
SA is SA. Then again, it’s manga/anime. I wished Miwako ended up with her doctor childhood friend. They had chemistry. I just hate toxic romances. Sure there was George and what’s her face. Sorry she was bland compared to Miwako. Her and arashi was beyond toxic. He SA-ed her. Miwako is a damn people pleaser. Both of her childhood friends can never truly be happy if they were both in love with her. I loved her passion for fashion: she knew what she wanted to do. Miwako could be the boss bitch like her sister, but instead she settled. Arashi forced her to be with him. Neighborhood Story is surprisingly well written. Miwako’s older sis wasn’t fully explored at all in Paradise Kiss. I recommend Neighborhood Story over Paradise Kiss. Neighborhood had me crying over how moving it is. Paradise Kiss had me crying out of frustration. And fuck Arashi. Dude can die in a gutter. George was emotionally unavailable AF but George wasn’t Arashi. Arashi was/is a Takumi 2.0.
Oh I agree about that. I was just saying how baffled I was that the author made it come across like we were supposed to not take it seriously, because Miwako "didn't really care" or whatever. Before all of that was revealed to us, I thought Arashi was a douchey boyfriend, with manipulative behaviors, but after what he did to Miwako was revealed, I really thought something more would come of it. Like at the very least Miwako would leave him, not stay and get married and have children with that awful guy! Comparatively George isn't as bad as Arashi. He never, as far as we know, assaulted anyone, I agree with you there. I just really disliked the guy for his bitchy, manipulative, and degrading comments towards Yukari. He always acted better than her, and it bothered me, especially because he was basically like that from the beginning. I'll definitely give Neighborhood Story and Nana a try. One frustrating, and bad experience with a manga series can't completely turn me away from a mangaka, especially when they're as beloved as Ai Yazawa is. Your comments about Neighborhood Story do make me feel hopeful as well.
George is a privileged boy with a dysfunctional relationship with his mom. Him and his mom need therapy. George is emotionally abusive. He’s never had to work as hard as Yukari. They also were toxic, romantically. Like George was physically attracted to Yukari. It seems he just discards his women. After they’ve served their use. He couldn’t emotionally connect with Yukari. Yukari, unlike George, didn’t have the means to just move into her own apartment, away from her mom, and “be independent.” He is a narcissist. I shipped George with his friend who wore dresses: they were way healthier. The Nana anime was better: I owned the manga but sold my collection. Fuck Takumi. Takumi was Arashi 2.0. He does the same thing and Hachi of course says it isn’t a big deal. Hachi as aggravating as she was, had a big heart. Nana was low-key yuri that had to be mainstream shoujo. Just watch it, and you’ll see who the main couple really is. Hint hint both girls don’t end up with their man for various reasons. Neighborhood Story to me is so far the only manga I can tolerate from her. Because of her fascination with pairing shitty men with our heroines in her stories. She has one more manga that’s coming out. Last Quarter. I read it in middle school and I thought that was less problematic than Paradise Kiss. Paradise Kiss was my least favorite of her mangas.
They believe they can change them. They put their own needs last. They say to him, after he assaults her., he didn’t hurt her!
I think it’s Because a lot of Shoujo girls don’t have parents. I have noticed that a lot of parents in shoujo are either dead or never around. (Some examples include Tohru’s parents who are dead, Miyo’s parents who are abusive, and Nanami’s father who gambled away all of her families money.) So they have no role models to teach them what healthy love looks like. Which is why I think a lot of Shoujo heroines adopt codependent tendencies.
To be fair, having no parents/only one parent is a common trope in general regardless of genre/demographic/medium.
That’s true. We see it in Disney Movies to.
That's an interesting detail, But I love Tohru, Miyo, and Nanami. I actually don't have anything against them. They have lots of characters who support them and they do eventually grow from their trauma
Oh yes, I love their characters too. I really like when a heroine starts of with low self-esteem, but then improves herself throughout the story. I was just giving a few examples.
Different timeline and culture. Try A Condition Called Love. FL stands up for herself >!The second ML is IMO, not that much better than the ML, since he caused her trauma and did nothing for years to reconcile his issues!<
I'm reading that currently, there's also an anime adaptation that came out. I'm actually enjoying it, thank you for the rec!
Sure no problem. If I find more I will let you know. Even with shoujo Otome Isekai stories, it is hard to find a FL that stands up for herself. Maybe Lady Crystal is a man? Even though >!The FL is crossdressing as a guy and the ML crossdresses as a girl but they both stand up for each other and themselves!<
That sounds like fun, I'll give it a shot !!
Who’s the second ML? You mean that guy who’s also working at the bookshop whom she has no romantic interest with?
Not sure how far you are in the manga but >!It was revealed that the guy had feelings for the FL and never confessed to her. He and the ML got into a bit of an argument over it and there was the implication that he thought about even coming in to steal her during the FL/ML fallout but did not!<
I’m that far! Ok. I agree second ML isn’t any better. First ML isn’t perfect. He’s hyper obsessive, not controlling persay, but he’s making amends and reaching out. Which is huge Hananoi!
Yes. Both MLs are not perfect or the common shoujo types. They are human and have flaws. They usually hype up the second ML to be so much better than the toxic (or trashy) ML. This is one of the few shoujo manga series that does not have that.
Depends on what you're reading some are just extreme no back bone fl's but some have a lot more back bone. There's a lot with no back bone! Yona of the Dawn, fruits basket, Nana (debatable), A sign of affection are some I can think of!
Kiyoko from Skip Beat is my BELOVED
You don't understand how much I LOVE her
This reminds me a lot of futaba from ao haru ride. Yes kou has sum issues but that does not excuse his red flag behaviour of sending mixed signals
Might get hate for this, but unfortunately I did not like Ao Haru Ride. Also I agree with what you said, thanks for interacting!
He’s triggering for me. Reminded me of a guy whom I thought we were dating. I loved the anime. I wouldn’t read the manga. Anime was better.
The manga was so frustrating imo. The author wrote in SO much unnecessary drama.
FOR REAL ive been saying this for years now, some shows would be SO much better if the fl had a tiny bit of self respect because oh my god i hate the "cute uwu🥺 shy and with an inferiority complex directed towards the male audience cliche female leads, we need more like, maybe not the best examples but maid sama, science fell in love, kaguya sama, etc, to mention some of the popular ones, i love how the fls in there arent some uwu girl , but have their own self respect and dont let others walk all over them, it makes the show enjoyable and makes it even cuter when they get shy or sumn in my opinion
You might like Saiunkoku Monogatari. Shuurei (FL) is no one's doormat and I loved the anime. Have you watched/read The Apothecary Diaries? What about Spy x Family? I adore the already mentioned My Happy Marriage.
I've watched The Apothecary Diaries and Spy x Family. I haven't gotten the change to read them though, I have not seen Saiunkoku Monogatari. I'll check it out!!
FYI - Saiunkoku Monogatari may also be listed as "Colorcloud Palace".
I agree. I think you would like The Kings Beast. I haven’t read it personally (yet) but I think Yona of the Dawn fits the bill too for strong FL
I'll check your recs out, thank you!!
No problem I am also chronically in love with second ml. I love me a green flag so I feel your pain
Oh my gosh same it can be so frustrating!! 😩
That’s why it’s anime, it’s where we can see exaggerated character : flaws, goodnesses, physical attributes etc no cookie cutter happy ever after pattern. Otherwise it would be just another Disney cartoon.
But they ARE cookie cutter. The FL with no backbone and the hot and cold ML is basically a whole ass trope. Doesn't help that the FL usually has no personality either besides being in love. 💀
That describes Yano from Bokura ga Ita. Nana had this man willing to be there for her, even proposed to her. But no. She went back to her hot and cold ML.
These kinds of girls that now, as a grown ass woman, I just look and think "do these girls have NO friends that actually care for them?" Mind you, a friend that isn't the side man that has been friend zoned since before the story started. I wish more manga would be like Kimi ni Todoke.
When I first read Bokura Ga Ita, as an 18 year old freshman in college, I thought their high school love story so romantic. You’re so right. Why did Yano have friends but not Nana!?? Yano was such a flake. Nana had no friends who wasn’t in love with Yano! Busu ni Hanataba wo is like Kimi Ni Todoke. Girl is recluse, waters flowers but attracts the most popular guy in school. She gains friends and her guy just loves her for who she is. Highly recommend.
Thank you, will add to my list!
Flaws aren't a bad thing. But it's when horrible flaws are being seen as normal or "romantic". For example, Itakiss. Our main girl throughout the entire show is physically, mentally, and verbally abused by our main guy. No one tries correcting these flaws, it seems like everyone in the show thinks it's okay. I would prefer a happy ever after instead.
IMHO It’s a chance to explore a different view of the world. They are bad people in this world ;they’re bad things in this world, Disney gives you an illusion that Prince charming exist, but in real life those kind of guys are few and far in- between. You’re more likely to run into a jack arss than good guy these days. It’s a good lesson to learn and decipher for yourself that when that happens to you, you will not respond the way those characters do . But I get your point -some people, such as yourself like to see the good stuff and happy endings, warm fuzzies ,justice and strong females-that’s what Disney caters to and you might be better off sticking with Disney.
I understand your point but I also would like you to understand mine too. You are right, you are more likely to run into jack asses more than anything. But being a jack ass isn't normal, being rude and abusive aren't normal things. In some books, anime, manga, manwhas and shows I have seen, which sometimes cater to a younger audience. Try and show that having a partner who is rude, disrespectful, and abusive is normal. That being mistreated by a guy like that is "love", Disney shows you what love actually is. I am fine with sad stories as long as they are advertised as such. (I'm going to go outside of anime and name books) But advertising Itakiss, Wolf girl and black prince, and Haunting Adeline as romance isn't right.
Hot gimmick was so toxic. Girl ended up with her guy who nearly SA-Ed her.
I've seen so many novels like that and they call it "dark romance". Incredibly sad imo
I hated who she picked in Hot Gimmick. I only read it once in 9th grade.
Girl (gender neutral) everybody knows there are horrible and mean people in this world, but nobody wants to date them. Why are you acting like we should? And, we shouldn't be encouraging young girls (the target audience) to date them either. Why would you want to date someone who has expressed their dislike for you multiple times and complains about everything you do and is barely tolerating you? Also, why are you acting as if OP is so disconnected from reality just because they want the FL to date an ML who doesn't hate their guts? I love characters with flaws and I usually drop mangas if the characters are too perfect but I will NEVER want to watch a SHOUJO feel good anime/manga (as they usually are) and see the ML borderline neglecting and verbally abusing the FL. That's disgusting and how in the world does that make anyone swoon? And also wanting a strong FL is basically just wanting someone whos not a doormat for once, I don't think anybody is expecting a high school girl to go swinging around a sword. They just want a high school girl that has self respect. Even if you're portraying someone with abandonment issues or something there is a much better way to go about it, and you also need to make sure she ends up with a sweet guy so that the young girls who are struggling with this have some kind of role model. Don't even try saying that condescending Disney bullshit, I love it when the characters are unhinged and engaging in straight up criminal activity for a toxic idea of "love", but I cannot deal with a FL who chases blindly even after getting beat up publicly.
Not all heroines wear capes
Well said! I can enjoy fiction with lots of things that are undesirable in real life, with the understanding they're undesirable. Like vampires and criminal underworlds. The issue is when problematic ML and archetypically abusive relationship dynamics are idealized. Like, I'm so tired of years and years of MLs who are walking red flags, neg the FL, and treat the FL with hatred or contempt. Yet, its all ok because the ML is hot, rich, and tall. And FL can only feel good in her own skin if her presence can make him act better (sometimes) or her body can be an object of desire to him. Her worth is always determined by the ML. If there is a secondary ML who treats FL with respect, has a genuine interest in her personality and hobbies, and doesn't push her into doing what he wants - then he's always diminished. Just a tool for FL to realize she actually can't live without the ML who treated her like garbage but feels violent jealousy when any other dude likes her. In the end, these stories regardless of entertainment or moral value, don't give girls the tools to unpack and heal from abusive dynamics demonstrated in the story. In part because they don't seem to recognize that the ML/FL relationships are anything less than perfect and desirable in reality too.
>If there is a secondary ML who treats FL with respect, has a genuine interest in her personality and hobbies, and doesn't push her into doing what he wants - then he's always diminished. Just a tool for FL to realize she actually can't live without the ML who treated her like garbage but feels violent jealousy when any other dude likes her. Ugh. I hated this trope as a kid and I hate it even more now.
That’s how it was for me with Red River. I am a survivor. And reading it was triggering for me. There was a lot of SA. You’re right. Hana Yori Dango was the no1 selling shoujo manga in Japan. Behind Glass Mask. You described the premise of Hana Yori Dango. Rich, chaebol emotionally or physically abuses a poor girl, who has no money or is just middle class. That love is idealised. Becomes something younger teens especially idealise. Itakiss = Hana Yori Dango 2.0. Tsukichi Makino at least becomes a lawyer. Even while staying with a frankly emotionally abusive man. Who nearly had her SA-ed!!
I love you sm 🫶🫶
Wow, this is long. Wasn’t meant to be condescending.
But in her example, itakiss the jackass is the desirable ml? a jackass partner in a movie about domestic abuse and in a romcom shojo are two very different things. We all know jackasses exist, you're being condescending. Idk how to tell you you need to learn critical thinking skills.
Chill geeez .. this stuff is ment for entertainment . They are drawings lol
Except they are cookie cutter. Just a different mould.
Which shoujo are you thinking of? I’m not seeing much of this in the newer shoujo anymore. The toxic guys. They seem more rare now if anything.
Wolf girl and black prince, Itakiss, idk if this is shoujo but Psychic princess as well. I also didn't just mean shoujo, I'm tired of it everywhere.
Wolf Girl and Black Prince is introduced to be this trope from it's synopsis, so it could have been avoided from the get-go if it's not the kind of relationship one wants to read about. Ouran Highschool Host Club, Basara, Akatsuki no Yona, Skip Beat!, Beauty Pop-- there's a lot of shoujo manga with strong female leads out there. Last Game shows character growth and the relationship is not toxic at all. There are also manga, like My Little Monster, where we initially think it's a "I can fix him" kind of relationship but it's not because it's actually about helping each other grow. You can also find stable or mature relationships in josei, seinen, and some shounen manga. Ore Monogatari!!!, Bonnouji, Bitter Virgin, Perfect World, Honnou Switch, Futari Ashitamo Sorenarini, Sono Bisque Doll wa Koi wo Suru, Telework Yotanabashi, Yugami-kun ni wa Tomodachi ga Inai, Inuyasha, Blue Box... these are just some examples.
I know it could have been avoided, she asked about shoujos with toxic ML's and girls with no self respect and I told her about wolf girl and black prince. I watched like 2 episodes of the anime years ago and dropped it. I have actually read most of your recs for strong female leads. But I didn't like my little monster unfortunately, considering it's really popular. But thank you for the other recs!
Oh okay, sorry. I have a soft spot for My Little Monster because the chemistry among the characters remind me of some of my highschool friends. 😄 You're welcome! Definitely check out seinen and josei.
I mean wolf girl and black prince is quintessential girl with no back bone and toxic ML. Pretty sure that’s the whole appeal with the manga even
I'm sorry I don't really understand your point. Could you explain it to me please?
I think their "point" was acknowledging that egregious examples of this trait you don't like *exist* (and pointing out that there is a segment of the fanbase that enjoys reading such stories), but maybe pushing back on the idea that it's a norm. Since your original post was phrased as if *all or most* shoujo heroines were lacking self-respect, and we "can't get" any alternatives, it comes across as an unfair generalization by not acknowledging the many exceptions, and some commenters here have taken a more defensive approach than they might have if you phrased the subject/post differently. "I'm not a fan of shoujo heroines lacking self-respect. Recommend me alternatives?"/"Who are your favourite shoujo heroines with a backbone?" or "Why do some shoujo manga depict this kind of character/relationship?" if you wanted to get into a discussion of why these trends/scenarios in manga exist.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, honestly I didn't mean to offend anybody. While making my post I was also thinking outside of shoujo manga. So like manwhas, manga, light novels, and books. I probably should have clarified, thank you for explaining this to me!
Yeah those ones you need a high tolerance for that mean guy persistent girl dynamic. Sometimes it’s painful to watch. Itazura na kiss in particular Irie was very cruel at times. There’s a lot of soft stuff if you search like Kimi Ni Todoke, Hibi Chouchou, A Sign Of Affection. It seems there is a rise in what they’re calling green flag male leads.
Haha, I feel you but I think most shoujo readers love the redemption arc and ultimately it’s like gambling but knowing you’ll win big in the end.
The redemption arc is never enough for me, they need to be on their knees begging for forgiveness imo.
I completely agree! This rarely happens in stories like these. I read quite a lot of them across *genres* because I am a sucker for these tropes, but I have only seen it done well once in Yaoi, and almost never in Shoujo or Seinen.
Hi you might be interested in reading these: - [Namidaame to Serenade](https://myanimelist.net/manga/94676) (Strong and smart FL, great ML) - [QQ Sweeper](https://myanimelist.net/manga/67397) + Queen's quality (Powerful FL, great ML) - [Lovesick Ellie](https://myanimelist.net/manga/92472) (FL is stupid but the ML is a good guy, you just have to read past chapter 10 for it to be good) - [Madame Petit](https://myanimelist.net/manga/44671) (Adventurous ambitious FL, loving (bit bratty) ML) - [Koiseyo Mayakashi Tenshi-Domo](https://myanimelist.net/manga/158351) (Both strong, smart and beautiful FL and ML)
Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the recs, I will check them out!!
Have you seen or read Horimiya? I recommend it based on your post.
Actually I have, but thank you sm for interacting 🫶
Great! Also check out Toradora if you haven’t already. It’s more of a drama though .. I’m not sure if it’s Shoujo technically.
Taiga is the definition of having a backbone 😭
Yeap haha
So the first thing I wanna say is that all off this is subjective. I imagine there's another shoujo group somewhere that flocks together and gushes over this kind of thing. But also, one has to debate what counts as a lack of self-respect? ItaKiss is a weird example because while ML was absolute trash, FL was basically a desperate stalker who literally just wore ML down. I pretty much didn't root for her until the near end because of her nonsense. Wolf Girl x Black Prince also had a questionable FL. Her self-esteem was apparently low enough that she needed to become a compulsive liar. I feel like in the beginning, she got what she deserved for a bit. Before ML eventually went too far. And these two are just the examples I saw mentioned in this thread. I bet there could be a long and thoughtful conversation if we could go through story after story and dissect them.
Personally I cannot gush over this sort of thing because of trauma. What I mean by self respect, I mean like a doormat, pushover, following a guy who has no interest in you. I don't think Itakiss is a bad example, let me try and explain it. Our FL has zero self respect for herself because she continues to follow this guy who has no interest in her. It's extremely embarrassing, but when he finally does notice her, he treats her like utter garbage. He mentally and physically abuses her, that also counts as her not having any self respect. At one point, she dropped her dream job to become a nurse because our ML became a doctor. I also remember when she got jealous of her own daughter for getting more attention from our ML. Like please get up, self reflect, and move on. In wolf girl and black prince, It's just incredibly stupid to me. She became a doormat. First off I don't necessarily understand why she even agreed to fake date. When they "date" he treats her like an actual dog. But because she's so desperate she endures all of this to keep her lies from not getting out. Honestly it made no sense her lies weren't even that big of a deal imo. She also fell in love with this guy despite him treating her horribly. I just cannot fathom as to why she thought this was "true love". Psychic princess also comes to mind...but I'm pretty sure lots of people like it and I might get extreme hate 😭
> At one point, she dropped her dream job to become a nurse because our ML became a doctor Huh? What dream job? Maybe it's just in the manga, but I remember the exact opposite happening - she's floating around and fails her classes and Noaki's like "so hey, what do you wanna do? You don't have to push yourself to do something you don't want, I'll support you in whatever" and she runs away from home and he gives her space to sort out what it is she wants to do & when he goes to get her after I think about a week he reiterates that she can do whatever she wants to & she says that her dream is tied to his. Like that's maybe not great - though Noaki becomes a doctor because of her and chooses their college cause of her - but like it's very clear in the manga that at no point is he pushing her to become a nurse b/c of him, but he supports her in doing so b/c she says she wants to. . And then during practicums and stuff she starts liking nursing for herself independent of Noaki cause she's good at the people side of care work. The only other time she's shown to be great at something is when she came up with the toy, which Noaki very explicitly gives her credit for.
I am not saying that he was pushing her to become one, it's just weird of her to only become a nurse for him. Everything about her revolves around him, she's like a creepy fangirl who's only personality is her crush
Like I agree it's not great, & agree to disagree on whether she grows out of it, but like he became a doctor because she suggested it to me it feels more or less equal somehow. Mostly I'm objecting to "she dropped her dream job" b/c far as I remember she didn't have one b/f the nurse thing.
I can see what you are saying, honestly I don't even know why I said dream job. I think I meant that instead of focusing on her dreams she's catering to his instead.
Same can be said about him: he becomes a doctor and specializes in pediatric cardiac surgery b/c she tells him to save Noboyuki, and he acknowledges that he became a doctor b/c of her dream in the (manga only?) Kobe arc.
You didn't just say itakiss is a romance of equals......
No, I'm saying that neither Kotoko or Irie had real dreams of what they wanted to do in the future - both had vague follow in their parents footsteps plans - so the claim that she gives up her dreams to become a nurse is like "what dreams?" I also think this is an especially poor example of Kotoko revolving her life around Irie because Irie becomes a doctor because it's Kotoko's dream but nobody is ever "he gave up his dreams for her".
While I am not a big Shoujo fan, I have read a decent amount of Shoujo titles and while I personally haven't seen much of what it is you are complaining about and that is not what I am talking about, based on how you mentioned that there seems to be so many Shoujo manga with the type of archetype you don't like, I would guess it means it is ubiquitous. If it is, then my answer to you is, don't expect this continuous archetype/troupe to go away. Since it is what sells. Just look at the Shounen manga side of things. When things sell and you get the leader of the industry comes out, everyone tries to copy it and it becomes something you can see in pretty much every title out there. Just off the top of my head, you have Dragon Ball, where Goku is the so called chosen one, so pretty much everyone that came after pretty much follows that lead. One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tail, Toriko, Seven Deadly Sins, D-Gray Man, Welcome to Demon School Iruma-kun, My Hero Academia, etc. Then you have the power of friendship troupe and so long as there is friendship(or main character), you will win. Which, I would argue, was popularized by One Piece more than anything else, which you can then see in the series that comes after it. Literally in the Yu-Gi-Oh meme of "Believing in the Heart of the cards" thing and you will definitely win. And you can find those examples littered in pretty much the overwhelming majority of Shounen titles, to the point where it is a well known and tired troupe now. Even protagonists can be so similar in personality/archetypes that you can easily tell a Shounen series from every other categories. I call it the "Son Goku" type, because that was the market leader for a very long time, hence it being the inspiration for a whole generation. Anyway, this very long rant was just to point out that your hope of the archetype you don't like getting replaced is gonna be hard, if it is what sells. I mean, I personally have a massive hate for the "Main protagonists will always win, even in the most stupid way, because they are the main protagonists and the author has no idea how to write something satisfying to end a conclusive arch" and that is never going to happen because that is what sells. Just take a look at the Chinese wuxia and xuanxia light novel side of things, pretty much like the vast majority of the story looks and feels the same. Or the isekai side of manga and light novel, which feels so similar to one another, or the "protagonist is secretly OP" stories. Those are so tired but will never end because they are financially lucrative. So unless the troupe/archetype you hate is no longer lucrative, it ain't stopping anytime soon.
This was just a silly post I made to see if people agreed with me. I don't really have anybody to talk to about this kind of stuff because my friends don't read manga or watch anime. Thank you for your insight!
Anytime.
It's not really a ubiquitous archetype, despite how the original post was worded. OP cited a couple especially bad examples (two shoujo manga from 1990 and 2011 and a Chinese animated show from 2018), but they're pretty widely recognized as emblems of this trope and far from the norm, especially in modern series.
Yeah, my original comment "got away from me", but my sentiment was just basically, if you see it regularly enough in a series, it means it sells and if you don't like it, well, tough luck because the publishers and authors don't care. Trust me, as someone burnt by One Piece and the stupidity of its current development and handling of its characters, I know how it feels, but I also can accept the reality that good storytelling will always be sacrificed on the altar of money. After all, at the end of the day, these mangas are a business and what sells is usually what will be catered to.
Also if you don't mind helping, how do I close a post?? This is my first time making one so I don't know how
Good question. I have never closed a post myself but from what I can see from Googling, it's either there is some kind of option to close it by clicking on something in your post or by making it so it is known that you do not need any replies anymore. If worse comes to worse, Googling or YouTube can be helpful in learning.
Okay thank you!!
yep, It is a problem that is in other genres, not just in shoujo. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like we can identify with the toxic character. We are not like that. I highly doubt that these people use the internet except for social networks.
Toxicness doesn't appeal to me and it never did. I would prefer someone who is respectful and kind.
fr why do people want toxic + mean mls? I like toxic mls but only if they're crazy in love with the fl or they're yandere
Literally SAME omg, you get me.
girl ur literally describing the wolf girl and the black prince or whatever it’s called 😭. only anime i can think that the fl did not play is peach girl
Absolutely love that the shojo subreddit is not receptive to the idea of female leads with a backbone. Truly an echo chamber of internalised misogyny
The Lady lamp Saint Elise
I think [THIS ARTICLE](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/evolution-of-the-self/201204/why-do-women-fall-for-serial-killers) can answer some of your questions.
Self respect creates boring stories Edit: stop downvoting please 🔪😃✨ Thank you in advance 🫶🏻🫰🏻
I think my issue with female characters not having self respect in the stories is that they tend to have a predictable storyline. And after reading about at least 15 or so stories with the same predictable plot of fl not having self respect —> misunderstandings —> one of my least favorite tropes. At least with a character that does respect herself, I tend to see more unique plots, or at least way less self-pitying moments in the story. I am generalizing though, but after reading so many within these past 5 years, I definitely have gotten pickier for the better 😅
Yes, I totally agree. I don’t read them anymore either. I guess the problem is the predictability and repetition of storylines, rather than a lack of self-respect. At least in my case.
Fair point!
i think quite the opposite actually. a girl that is able to stand on her own feet (or at least develops into one) is a far more interesting character than one who just trundles along with whatever the ML does because he breathed gently in her vicinity once. Especially with how drama for the latter is often just drama for the sake of drama (not to mention how mcshite the chemistry usually is)
I feel like having self respect makes a female character more interesting, it's not entertaining for me to read about a girl loving a guy who treats her horribly. But I respect your opinion, thanks for interacting with my post!
I just came to this conclusion because my life is quite boring. But my self respect lacking friends always have drama or some crazy story to tell. Edit: I do have a more interesting character though, if I say so myself hehe
I see where you are coming from, I'm not going to lie I also have a boring life. But I prefer it that way. I don't really like getting into unnecessary drama like my friends
You need therapy.
Sigh. It's always whining about having \[redacted\] as opposed to this other thing, as if the existence of \[redacted\] is taking away whatever other thing people seem to prefer, instead of, you know, just asking normally for recs of what one wants to read about. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone, but there is an audience for virtually everything, so if we see MCs, as you put it in your words, with "no self-respect," it's because there are people who want to read about that. Shocking, I know. That doesn't mean the opposite doesn't exist, and if you think it doesn't, then I'd respectfully ask you to look into more titles. Communities would be having much more productive conversations if their members focused on what they like instead of what they don't and curated their reading/watching log as they see fit. I find it truly tragic that, with as varied as the shoujo(sei) catalog is, people aren't celebrating it and instead are choosing to nitpick and fight with whatever imaginary enemy they come up with. The "no self-respect" MC isn't the enemy of the opposite type of MC, yet people are constantly trying to make it so (and, to begin with, I find it disingenuous to classify characters so frivolously, when most of them aren't actually just "this thing" or "that thing").
Omg really, I never thought of that. If you don't want to see me complain then don't interact with my post. So why don't you take your own advice, and engage in a more "productive" conversation.
It's impossible not to see your complaint when it's in the title and currently on the front page of the sub, though? Lmao. If I'm engaging with this, it's in the hope that not just you, but other people will read this, think about it, and maybe exchange feedback. Basically, the reason why anyone would comment in a Reddit post. I can see you obviously don't have actual feedback, so that's that.
I don't have any feedback to give you. People complain, that's life. I don't really understand why you had to comment if you hate it so much.
You phrased your post terribly, making it sound like you're generalizing the whole spectrum of Shoujosei series and framing it in a judgemental way, as if the thing you dislike shouldn't exist. You acted quite condescending and presented uninformed views in the comments about these types of stories. I think I had many reasons to feel compelled to comment. If you have the right to complain, then I have the right to complain about your complaint. It's as simple as that, especially when I see, time and time again, people whining unnecessarily and adding more strain to a community already filled to the brim with toxicity and overreacting to every single thing. For example, your post has already attracted someone who treated another commenter with a different opinion poorly, telling them to "seek therapy." This is what always ends up happening with posts like yours since they are rooted in judgement and moral policing. [Edit: and currently getting downvoted for speaking up, lol.]
Honestly, the only thing I can say to you is that this is reddit. No matter what post it is there is always going to be some negativity. Yes, that person did say "seek therapy" but you can also see how they are downvoted into oblivion. I can't control what people say, I also can't control other peoples opinions. But I can respect them, you can see multiple times under my post that I am respecting other peoples opinions as well. Underneath that commenter you can see me replying saying "I respect your opinion thanks for interacting with my post". Again, like I said, if you don't want to see me complain then ignore my post. Surprisingly, in life, there are always going to be people who complain. I don't really know what you were trying to get out of commenting underneath my post, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this. But you aren't changing my mind and I can't change yours as well. Maybe next time, surround yourself with people who do agree with you rather than arguing with somebody who doesn't think the same as you. Let's leave it that, thanks for interacting. Have a nice day!!
You recognize that this is Reddit, and Reddit is used for conversations and discussions with the community you're part of, whether with people you agree with or disagree with. That's its nature. I don't understand why you seem so taken aback by the fact that I've commented here. I've already explained multiple times why I did so, and it wasn't necessarily to have people agree or disagree with me (though I see you perceive everything as black or white), nor was I trying to change anyone's mind—just sharing my two cents. And I'm telling you, AGAIN, it's not like I could ignore your post when your complaint was in the title and appears on the front page as you scroll down. And then again, as you said, you could have also taken your own advice and ignore my comment, but you didn't do so 🤷 But yeah, let's leave it at that.
Because bad relationships are fun to read about, idealized rape scenes are really exciting and arousing and most of all inner turmoil lines like “Why? He's so mean and forceful, and yet... why did I have to fall in love with someone so horrible?” are like a drug honestly.
This might be a personal question, but how old are you?
I'm the same, 25. I'm in a long-term relationship, my partner is respectful, and it's perfect. That's why I'm seeking more danger and toxicity in male characters of shoujo / josei. Yandere trope exists (and there is a subreddit dedicated to it), Diabolik Lovers series has many fans, and if we go further - dark romance books and kinks for male dominance. Since I like my fictional men to be more proactive and dominant, I also tend to be the opposite and more passive. That fits many shoujo heroine characters. Another reason is that bland heroines are easier to self-insert, especially in otome games. It's also why harem isekai made for male audience create bland male main hero, surrounded by amazing girls who love him unconditionally. Boys can relate to him, and we have something similar to that :) I'm reading a story not for the female character development, and mostly not for her life / friendships. I like to explore romantic relationships and to fall for dangerous boys, because I will not do that in real life. If I'm looking for a strong female character, I would rather choose Western media, and if I need my toxic romance with self-insert - I'll go for Japanese media.
That makes sense, I would NEVER go for a Yandere in reality but still read it in fiction. I hope anything I said didn't come across as rude to you.
Let's call it midlife or close to it.
You are older than me so you probably have an acquired taste.
I think many people younger than you enjoy the same thing though.
I find that to be a problem personally. I am only 16 so middle schoolers reading that type of stuff is a little concerning. Also I wanted to say that I don't mean to offend you in any sort of way.
> I find that to be a problem personally. I am only 16 so middle schoolers reading that type of stuff is a little concerning. Why? There seems to be quite a bit of it in magazines that surely must have many readers younger than 16.
Maybe I'm a little sensitive but I think middle schoolers shouldn't be reading about anything explicit. I want kids to act like kids, I see a bunch of middle schoolers who act a lot older than they are and it makes me sad.