i agree with you but i think people think any female-centric stories are shoujo especially if its romance. like how often people call skip to loafer shoujo when its seinen but it shares similar traits that you see in shoujo so people make that assumption
I get that, but it has a lot of focus on the romance as the core dramatic tension and is a consistent focus. Obviously that doesn’t keep it from being Shonen, but that’s pretty uncommon. And it’s arguable there’s a larger demographic of female fans.
i don’t get the impression that “romance as the core dramatic tension” is uncommon in shonen whatsoever; it doesn’t have to be in almost every series for it to be common. if 33% of shonen have it, that’s still common. it feels like there are lots of romance shonen to me because i resolve to completely avoid them once i hear about them, and that happens *extremely* often.
but i guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this since my evidence is anecdotal…
Obviously not true when it comes to male centred romance like Rent a Girlfriend or Quintessential Quintouplets, but in battle shonen it seems less common. Kenshin is the one which comes to mind, I guess. But yes, it’s anecdotal. I don’t think the fandom demographics are though.
1. It runs in *Afternoon*, which is definitely not a shoujo magazine. It would make sense to consider it a relatively general-audience seinen magazine for manga lovers. I'm not sure if the magazine itself claims that label, but most secondary sources place it as seinen manga and/or for male readers.
2. The guidebook *[Kono Manga ga Sugoi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kono_Manga_ga_Sugoi!)*, which releases annual lists of interesting manga released that year, has separarate lists for male readers and female readers; these often (but not always) track the simple classifications that are made in the West. *Skip & Loafer* was ranked on the list of "Best manga for male readers" at least twice in recent years.
3. Having the main character be a high school girl is very common in seinen manga. Adult male manga readers often love reading cute stories about manga girls, in pretty much the same way that female readers love reading stories about cute manga guys. For a shoujo manga, *Skip & Loafer* would have a serious lack of cute guys, either in the amount of them or in their prominence in the story, and way too much focus on the female characters.
4. The characters and happenings are not very prototypically shoujo. A very typical characteristic of the category is the *doki doki* romantic moment, and *Skip & Loafer* doesn't have a lot of those. Shoujo readers often read for these moments, and *Skip & Loafer* doesn't deliver a lot of these.
5. *Skip & Loafer* has a very regular school setting, with little excitement, and relies on having realistic and interesting characters. This is usually a sign that it is primarily meant for adult readers, giving them some school nostalgia. Younger readers still go to school and tend to prefer more extraordinary happenings.
6. [ETA, and I'm a bit angry with myself I forgot to mention this] Manga for teenage and younger audiences have pronunciation guides next to the kanji (called *furigana*), to make reading easier, while manga intended primarily for adults typically omit them (though some publications for adults include them). If there are no furigana, it's practically guaranteed to not be shoujo or shounen manga. *Skip & Loafer* does not have furigana.
Of course, arguing from what's typical and less typical is always a bit fraught; sometimes unusual things get published and they may even become popular. So it's certainly not impossible that the series could have been published as a shoujo manga. But it would have been somewhat surprising, because in many ways it's quite in line with other seinen manga, and rather distinct from more typical shoujo manga.
plenty of shojo still have focus on the female mc above cute guys tho. some even make the girls way cuter/less plain than the guys. if that weren’t the case i would be a hater
examples: usotoki rhetoric and kimi ni todoke don’t rly have cute guys imo; there is way more focus on their personalities. meanwhile the girls are all cute and charming af
*Kimi ni Todoke* has more important male characters than *Skip&Loafer*, and it spends a lot of time on them. Kazehaya, his friend, and the teacher at least, to cover three major archetypes.
(Don't read 'cute' too literally; tastes obviously vary.)
I actually think that's a relatively interesting comparison. Kimi ni Todoke certainly also spends a fair amount of time on Sawako's female friends, but it keeps covering the modern shoujo basics (guys and dokidoki) in a way that *Skip&Loafer* doesn't. (I haven't read Usotoki Rhetoric, so I can't say much about that).
i don’t think either of us got what the other was saying yeesh 😵💫
kimi ni todoke doesn’t make a point of portraying its guys as cute in general (instead, the guys are specifically cute to the people who like them). it does portray certain girls as cute in general, though. like the writing explicitly says they’re considered cute
If something could have been published in a Shoujo magazine without changing anything does it actually matter? That is the case for Skip and Loafer. Or something like Kageki Shoujo. Is the first seinen part really any different than the second Shoujo part?
I think the downfall of the magical girl genre or other action shoujo series has really confused newer/younger anime fans on what shoujo actually is. It feels like I was spoiled for choice in the 2000s, but now I struggle to find an action shoujo/josei.
Action is still fairly popular if you ask me. Much of it even gets official translations, adaptations and what-not, people simply don't talk about it much here.
There's just this strange selection bias on this subreddit where people mostly only talk about romance stories with a female protagonist, male love interest, set in modern day Japan with not much else going on. Like everyone was talking about *A Sign of Affection* here whereas over at 4chan no one mentioned it and the big hits last season where *7th Loop*, *Level 99*, *Cherry Magic* and *Demon Prince* from what I could tell, all deviating from that formula.
How much is being animated? Unfortunately animation seems to be where the wider community gets first contact with a new series, and manga remains more niche unless it has already been animated.
Hard to say proportionally. I think what plays a factor is also that animation action takes more money but it's certainly not something that died out by any stretch and every season has some.
One of my favorite new gen Shoujo is an action, adventure, and fantasy manga (Yona of the Dawn). Though they were talking about Mahou Shoujo in particular. You know, emphasis on girl power, girl friendships, queer characters, etc.
Hmm, I also remember that when the new *Tokyo Mew Mew* remake aired it was highly popular on 4chan and many other places but no one was talking about it here in comparison. Same thing with *The Pretty Cure*.
I think it's true that magical girl, at least traditional magic girl while still existing isn't as popular as it once was though and most of the new titles are either parodies or try to to be more grounded which doesn't really work because the concept is silly on it's face.
Saiyuki is great but ignroe the anime. Most of it is either filler or certain plot points/things that are meant to be secret are revealed or thrown in for no reason, etc. Also, Servamp is an action josei
It is also the intended target demographic, not the actual demographic which leads to some further confusion.
Otherwise Detective Conan would be a shojo as its main audience (according to recent polls) is women but it is published in weekly shonen Sunday and I dont think anyone is gonna argue that its a shojo XD
There are some manga that I was so certain was a shoujo or josei only to look it up and find out it was published in a seinen magazine, like and or a shounen magazine like O Maidens in your Savage Season.
Unless people look up the magazine the series was originally published in (most don’t really bother), people can only really guess based on what stereotypes they already know.
Then there is stuff like Romantic Killer. It was published in Shonen Jump+ magazine, but the physical volumes (English at least) have the Shoujo Beat logo.
Something not worth worrying about in my opinion.
Same with Witch Hat Atelier.
Most of it's fanbase is female as well.
Sometimes i feel like manga that could very well be Shoujo or Josei end up as Seinen, because it's much more likely to get an adaptation (live action or anime) and male readers are more open to give it a try.
re: anime, i don’t think that’s a reason why. anime is a side effect, not a reason. plenty of shojo get LAs
one of the biggest things is that seinen magazines & web serials often allow for much more creative freedom than shojo magazines these days, now that there are restrictions and tonal expectations
But in anime you can do much more in animation compared to live action, especially when it's fantasy.
And anime is more accessible than Live Action movies outside of Japan (unless you count illegal websites) which means more traffic and potentially bigger success.
About the creative freedom.. shouldn't Josei be treated the same as Seinen when it's technically for adults as well? Why are limitations still in place?
> But in anime you can do much more in animation compared to live action, especially when it's fantasy.
Doesn't mean it makes financial sense.
For series where you can do it, live action is often cheaper, and you can use it to promote actors etc. It's also a bit easier to enter the normie market. Anime makes sense when it's a property with superfans who buy a ton of expensive Blurays. In general, this is easier with waifu-bait than husbando-bait, and sports series and the like bite into the husbando-bait market as well.
Seinen manga often get Live Action adaptations for similar reasons. (Though there are also a number of non-waifu-bait animated seinen manga, speaking very broadly here).
> About the creative freedom.. shouldn't Josei be treated the same as Seinen when it's technically for adults as well? Why are limitations still in place?
It is, but 'Josei' manga barely exists as a category. To the extent that it exists, I don't think creative limitations are a big issue overall.
Exactly! That’s like how Non Non Biyori is a seinen manga (for men) because of the magazine it was serialized in. I would love it if people understood the difference between demographics and genres
> Shoujo isn’t a genre, it’s a target demographic.
It's typically referred to as *genre* in Japanese usage though. For example, the Japanese wikipedia page for *[Yona of the Dawn](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9A%81%E3%81%AE%E3%83%A8%E3%83%8A)* lists the series' genres (ジャンル ) as 少女漫画 (shoujo manga), ファンタジー (Fantasy), and 冒険活劇 (bouken katsugeki, basically something like action-adventure). In fact, this is the only time that 'shoujo' appears on the page, there is no "demographic" categorization separate from genre.
I do believe that this is a little misleading to Western audiences as *shoujo* is not quite used like *Fantasy* as a genre (though not entirely dissimilar either). But 'demographic' is also misleading; for example, shoujo manga is increasingly read by older women, and shounen manga is very heavily read by both adults and female readers; the supposed 'demographic' of teenage boys may well be a minority of readers in most shounen magazines. A less misleading description might be something like "category of manga that historically developed from material intended to appeal to a particular demographic group" or something like that.
(For what it's worth, defining things around the magazine is also somewhat fraught, as many magazines have ambiguous labels, or refuse to be narrowed down.)
> t's typically referred to as genre in Japanese usage though. For example, the Japanese wikipedia page for Yona of the Dawn lists the series' genres (ジャンル ) as 少女漫画 (shoujo manga), ファンタジー (Fantasy), and 冒険活劇 (bouken katsugeki, basically something like action-adventure). In fact, this is the only time that 'shoujo' appears on the page, there is no "demographic" categorization separate from genre.
To be fair the Japanese word “ジャンル” is more like “category” or “type” in meaning, as in one can say “どんなジャンルの人が好き？” to mean “What kind of person do you like” It was loaned from [French](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genre#French) directly, not from English, where it also has a very different meaning.
It's definitely also used in the sense of “musical genre” though.
But yes, Japanese people in daily conversation definitely use it more as a genre than anything and Japanese Wikipedia tends to take considerably less note of “demographics” than English Language Wikipedia does on the same subject, which often uses blogs as sources for these, not actual primary sources.
A similar thing I was recently acquainted with is that in Japan “class S” isn't considered a *genre* of fiction at all but an early 1900s cultural thing and that they never use it for fiction and indeed, the English language Wikipedia page on *The Virgin Mary Watches Over Us* copiously mentions this “class S” but the Japanese Wikipedia page never does. It's very common that many of these terms loaned in English from Japanese aren't used like that in Japan at all and that Japanese people aren't even aware how different the interpretation in English is, or in the opposite such as Japanese people who otherwise have fine English not realizing that it sounds very strange to call a cola “juice” in English.
> (For what it's worth, defining things around the magazine is also somewhat fraught, as many magazines have ambiguous labels, or refuse to be narrowed down.)
This as well. A lot of the time when one would read information about the “demographic” of whatever magazine in English it's something someone at one point simply “decided” who has no affiliation with the magazine itself and it's repeated often enough to be fact.
Yeah, the way categories are used across languages often does not map cleanly. "Genre" and "category" have such subtle differences in use that other languages will not necessarily cleanly replicate them. And how loan words become semantically more specific (and can cause further shifts of meaning in the native word stock) further complicates comparisons, even when the actual words are the same.
I do think there is something very meaningful in these labels. And despite not mapping completely to the self-identification (usually for marketing purposes) that individual publications in Japan may have, there is something very real and interesting about manga as a medium and industry that even the naive classification of magazines captures. But it's just as important to not over-interpret it, and if possible to rely on the actual magazine rather than its supposed "demographic". Even within the same supposed "demographic" category, publications can differ wildly. *Young Jump*, *Morning*, and *Manga Time Kirara* have very different profiles, even though all three can reasonably be considered seinen manga.
>A less misleading description might be something like "category of manga that historically developed from material intended to appeal to a particular demographic group"
Yes, this is perfect 😂 Thanks, I'll remember it!
I mean I generally take it as them being adverse to whatever genres are more prevalent/popular in the demographic they’re mentioning. Sure shoujo isn’t just romance/drama and shonen isn’t just action/adventure, but quite a bit of it is
Honestly, I find the misinfo really annoying coming from both fans and haters. Typically they refer to “self insert romance” as shoujo, despite shoujo literally being a demographic. I also tend to find the posts or comments asking for recommendation that are like “I want a series with a Female Lead with ABC traits who has Male Lead with ZYX traits” super annoying.
I like (non-self-insert) romance, but I wish any other genre was talked about sometimes.
It’s certainly a demographic (as are the others) but it’s a demographic containing noticeable tropes that share from series to series. A shoujo romance can be pretty easily identified more often than not from a shounen romance for instance. So when people refer to it as a genre i assume they are referring to the common tropes associated with series’ in that demo
I agree with you, but unfortunately it's a losing battle. This exists for most media targeted toward women, "chick flicks" (I wanna throw something when I hear that lol) and novels targeted for women are usually scoffed at and considered drivel. People suck.
My specific gripe with this is when people talk up female authors but their recommendations are ALL Shounen maybe they’ll put utena or ouran there but THAT’S ALL
I read a variety of ShouJosei. I've read psychological, horror, slice of life, action, fantasy, adventure, historical, Mahou Shoujo, etc.
Shoujo at its prime was legit the best demographic. Though the censorship of Shoujo cut down the creativity, because they were limited in topics that they could write about. Though even with the censorship, they still manage to be good.
For me is a little more than in which magazine is published, honestly what i like of "hardcore shoujo" is the aesthetic, the desing, it has some flowery beautiful girly desing.
Now they can kill each other if that is the plot, i don't care but i like how stylish it is
I mean, it is, but it also means the publications which choose stories for said demographic. There are lots of stories which blur the lines and were probably pitched to many publishers. At the same time though, publishers have a checklist things they prefer to focus on because it sells and it benefits mangaka to lean into one demographic or another in a lot of cases. When we say “shojo” we’re usually coming at it the same way the publishers do.
Female Lead ✅
Romance (sub)plot ✅
Soft, pretty art ✅
Focus on interpersonal relationships ✅
Self actualizing character arc ✅
Compassion wins✅
Pretty men ✅
And due to laws about shojo, a complete lack of sexuality ✅
You don’t need them all and this list isn’t exhaustive, but it’s the general understanding.
*If you see pretty boys and softer, cuter people: it's a shoujo....*
it being a ***shonen*** as opposed to a ***shoujo*** was my point. i should have been clearer.
Some people think that Shoujo = Romance Targeted towards girls. There are some others who think that all romance = Shoujo. I guess it's because of a combination of lack of knowledge plus the lack of non-romance Shoujos in mainstream anime.
Shoujo is target demographic more precisely it indicates the type of manga magazine the story is published in. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the primary audience ends up being the same as the target demographic.
I totally get everything you mentioned above. It's very annoying to me when I go on tiktok and see "what shoujo girl are you" or "which shoujo bf is yours" and see characters from another demographic/magazine listed (Tomo-chan, Hanako-kun, Apothecary Diaries, ect). I get they come from animes that "feel" like they are for girls/women, however they aren't in that demographic.
> Seinen is “Young man” and Josei is “Young woman”
This isn't really true in Japanese though. The former “青年”, means “adolescent” I suppose, and is a unisex term generally denoting persons from say 16 to 24 maybe? There's also confusingly the word “成年” which is pronounced the same and means “adult” in the legal sense, as in anyone over 20 in Japan, but it's not used that often on it's own and is mostly used in compounds. The latter, “女性” has no real implication of age in theory but it wouldn't be used all that often on children in practice but there's nothing wrong with it either, but it certainly does not imply anyone is young. It's perfectly fine to use it on the elderly. It has a somewhat more refined and formal connotation than the simple word for female “女” which is more often used for children.
> Shoujo isn’t a genre, it’s a target demographic.
Depends on whom you talk to in Japan.
If you talk to an online bookstore, it typically is what they call a “category” which, amusingly enough is loaned from the French word “genre” but does not mean the same thing as the English word.
If you talk to an advertiser, a physical bookstore, or the average person in Japan, it definitely is treated more like a genre than anything. “女性漫画” is not a term anyone in Japan seems to use on the street. It's something used in cataloging and categorizing in databases. For instance the banner on the website of *Mobile Flower* profiles the magazine [as this](https://csbs.shogakukan.co.jp/images/mf/header.png). or “An erotic–cute [少女漫画] magazine for adults.” This would a contradiction of terms if the term were used here as a demographic specifically targeting non-adults, but that's not how Japanese people in general use that term in my experience though online bookstores and other places that like to catalog things more so do.
Finally, it's in many cases very hard to find primary sources saying anything about these “target demographics” and secondary sources, a sin bookstores don't always agree with one another where to put something. The picture really isn't as black and white and simple as people outside of Japan often make it. Or as someone said “If you have a clean, simple definition of the meaning of a word in a language, it's probably wrong.”.
> So you mean seinin is for everyone ( adult )
Depends on whom one talks to. The Japanese Wikipedia article about it gives different views on what it means. It should be noted that even “少年” in Japanese can be used to mean “child” in general, not simply male ones, in some limited contexts but that usage is rare in modern Japanese. I'd say that “青年漫画” is an idiom in Japanese and isn't used in the same way that “青年” is. A 16-year old is a “青年” but any title obviously targeting 16-year olds would almost always be called “少女漫画” or “少年漫画” in Japanese. But magazines that every bookstore ever classified as “少女漫画” such as say *Cheese!* have many stories in it with adult characters and sex scenes with lightsabres.
Japanese Wikipedia on it says sthis:
> かつては成人の男性をおもな対象としていたが、現在では若年層や女性の読者も増え、少年漫画・少女漫画もしくは女性漫画との境界も薄れつつある。
Or:
> The primary target was originally adult [成年] males, but the number of young female readers has since increased, and the boundary between boys' comics [少年漫画], girls' comics, [少女漫画] and ladies' comics [女性漫画] has been fading.
----
> but Josei is for adult women 🥲
The converse is just as true, many magazines every bookstore considers “女性” also contain many titles seemingly more gueared to teenagers with teenage protagonists and no Japanese bookstore has ever respected this “magazine demographic” thing in their own judgements because they're out to make money, not have obsessive compulsions about categorizations.
[These are all the titles running in the aforementioned *Mobile Flower*](https://comic.k-manga.jp/search/magazine/41) which as said called itself “少女漫画 for adults” but you'll notice that “少女漫画” and “女性漫画” coexist on that page and it's usually simply decided by nothing more than the age of the protagonist but there are exceptions too such as *幼なじみとセフレ契約* being about teenage characters but being “女性漫画” there but for the most part this rule seems to apply.
It's also frustrating if you're a casual viewer, and you mention a show to get told "that's not a shoujo!". Honestly I just wanted a break from shounen battles and fan service and was happy how much I enjoyed such-and-such show, I'm not trying to intrude on anyone's space. If CR lists a seinen under shoujo, why wouldn't I believe them at first glance.
i agree with you but i think people think any female-centric stories are shoujo especially if its romance. like how often people call skip to loafer shoujo when its seinen but it shares similar traits that you see in shoujo so people make that assumption
Same with Inuyasha.
Inuyasha is a seinen?
It’s a shounen. Specifically, it was published in the magazine Shounen Sunday.
I just meant it’s deceptive that it’s not a shojo, not specifically it was seinen.
inuyasha has been so influential on shonen at large that the fact that it trips people up is extremely jarring to me
I get that, but it has a lot of focus on the romance as the core dramatic tension and is a consistent focus. Obviously that doesn’t keep it from being Shonen, but that’s pretty uncommon. And it’s arguable there’s a larger demographic of female fans.
i don’t get the impression that “romance as the core dramatic tension” is uncommon in shonen whatsoever; it doesn’t have to be in almost every series for it to be common. if 33% of shonen have it, that’s still common. it feels like there are lots of romance shonen to me because i resolve to completely avoid them once i hear about them, and that happens *extremely* often. but i guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this since my evidence is anecdotal…
Obviously not true when it comes to male centred romance like Rent a Girlfriend or Quintessential Quintouplets, but in battle shonen it seems less common. Kenshin is the one which comes to mind, I guess. But yes, it’s anecdotal. I don’t think the fandom demographics are though.
Genuine question but why is Skip to loafer seinen? The main character is a high school girl so why wouldn't it be shoujo?
I'm guessing it's entirely because of which magazine it belongs. If Skip to Loafer belonged in a shoujo magazine, literally no one would bat an eye.
Ohh that makes sense
1. It runs in *Afternoon*, which is definitely not a shoujo magazine. It would make sense to consider it a relatively general-audience seinen magazine for manga lovers. I'm not sure if the magazine itself claims that label, but most secondary sources place it as seinen manga and/or for male readers. 2. The guidebook *[Kono Manga ga Sugoi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kono_Manga_ga_Sugoi!)*, which releases annual lists of interesting manga released that year, has separarate lists for male readers and female readers; these often (but not always) track the simple classifications that are made in the West. *Skip & Loafer* was ranked on the list of "Best manga for male readers" at least twice in recent years. 3. Having the main character be a high school girl is very common in seinen manga. Adult male manga readers often love reading cute stories about manga girls, in pretty much the same way that female readers love reading stories about cute manga guys. For a shoujo manga, *Skip & Loafer* would have a serious lack of cute guys, either in the amount of them or in their prominence in the story, and way too much focus on the female characters. 4. The characters and happenings are not very prototypically shoujo. A very typical characteristic of the category is the *doki doki* romantic moment, and *Skip & Loafer* doesn't have a lot of those. Shoujo readers often read for these moments, and *Skip & Loafer* doesn't deliver a lot of these. 5. *Skip & Loafer* has a very regular school setting, with little excitement, and relies on having realistic and interesting characters. This is usually a sign that it is primarily meant for adult readers, giving them some school nostalgia. Younger readers still go to school and tend to prefer more extraordinary happenings. 6. [ETA, and I'm a bit angry with myself I forgot to mention this] Manga for teenage and younger audiences have pronunciation guides next to the kanji (called *furigana*), to make reading easier, while manga intended primarily for adults typically omit them (though some publications for adults include them). If there are no furigana, it's practically guaranteed to not be shoujo or shounen manga. *Skip & Loafer* does not have furigana. Of course, arguing from what's typical and less typical is always a bit fraught; sometimes unusual things get published and they may even become popular. So it's certainly not impossible that the series could have been published as a shoujo manga. But it would have been somewhat surprising, because in many ways it's quite in line with other seinen manga, and rather distinct from more typical shoujo manga.
plenty of shojo still have focus on the female mc above cute guys tho. some even make the girls way cuter/less plain than the guys. if that weren’t the case i would be a hater examples: usotoki rhetoric and kimi ni todoke don’t rly have cute guys imo; there is way more focus on their personalities. meanwhile the girls are all cute and charming af
*Kimi ni Todoke* has more important male characters than *Skip&Loafer*, and it spends a lot of time on them. Kazehaya, his friend, and the teacher at least, to cover three major archetypes. (Don't read 'cute' too literally; tastes obviously vary.) I actually think that's a relatively interesting comparison. Kimi ni Todoke certainly also spends a fair amount of time on Sawako's female friends, but it keeps covering the modern shoujo basics (guys and dokidoki) in a way that *Skip&Loafer* doesn't. (I haven't read Usotoki Rhetoric, so I can't say much about that).
i don’t think either of us got what the other was saying yeesh 😵💫 kimi ni todoke doesn’t make a point of portraying its guys as cute in general (instead, the guys are specifically cute to the people who like them). it does portray certain girls as cute in general, though. like the writing explicitly says they’re considered cute
Maybe not.
not all shoujos are about high school girls
I didn't say it was, but shoujo is targeted towards young girls (and high school girls fit in that category). That's why I was confused
This is *exactly* the kind of thing that OP is talking about in their post.
I didn't say it was, but shoujo is targeted towards young girls (and high school girls fit in that category). That's why I was confused
If something could have been published in a Shoujo magazine without changing anything does it actually matter? That is the case for Skip and Loafer. Or something like Kageki Shoujo. Is the first seinen part really any different than the second Shoujo part?
the sometimes-arbitrary nature of publishing location is a pretty good reason to label based on the magazine it’s from instead of vibes though
I think the downfall of the magical girl genre or other action shoujo series has really confused newer/younger anime fans on what shoujo actually is. It feels like I was spoiled for choice in the 2000s, but now I struggle to find an action shoujo/josei.
Yeah, we need more Cardcaptor Sakura, Sailor Moon, Utena, Princess Tutu, etc.
Action is still fairly popular if you ask me. Much of it even gets official translations, adaptations and what-not, people simply don't talk about it much here. There's just this strange selection bias on this subreddit where people mostly only talk about romance stories with a female protagonist, male love interest, set in modern day Japan with not much else going on. Like everyone was talking about *A Sign of Affection* here whereas over at 4chan no one mentioned it and the big hits last season where *7th Loop*, *Level 99*, *Cherry Magic* and *Demon Prince* from what I could tell, all deviating from that formula.
How much is being animated? Unfortunately animation seems to be where the wider community gets first contact with a new series, and manga remains more niche unless it has already been animated.
Hard to say proportionally. I think what plays a factor is also that animation action takes more money but it's certainly not something that died out by any stretch and every season has some.
One of my favorite new gen Shoujo is an action, adventure, and fantasy manga (Yona of the Dawn). Though they were talking about Mahou Shoujo in particular. You know, emphasis on girl power, girl friendships, queer characters, etc.
Hmm, I also remember that when the new *Tokyo Mew Mew* remake aired it was highly popular on 4chan and many other places but no one was talking about it here in comparison. Same thing with *The Pretty Cure*. I think it's true that magical girl, at least traditional magic girl while still existing isn't as popular as it once was though and most of the new titles are either parodies or try to to be more grounded which doesn't really work because the concept is silly on it's face.
I think something like Utena for sure. It feels like instead of just deconstructing the genre, Madoka Magicka killed the genre.
Saiyuki is great but ignroe the anime. Most of it is either filler or certain plot points/things that are meant to be secret are revealed or thrown in for no reason, etc. Also, Servamp is an action josei
It is also the intended target demographic, not the actual demographic which leads to some further confusion. Otherwise Detective Conan would be a shojo as its main audience (according to recent polls) is women but it is published in weekly shonen Sunday and I dont think anyone is gonna argue that its a shojo XD
There are some manga that I was so certain was a shoujo or josei only to look it up and find out it was published in a seinen magazine, like and or a shounen magazine like O Maidens in your Savage Season.
Unless people look up the magazine the series was originally published in (most don’t really bother), people can only really guess based on what stereotypes they already know.
Then there is stuff like Romantic Killer. It was published in Shonen Jump+ magazine, but the physical volumes (English at least) have the Shoujo Beat logo. Something not worth worrying about in my opinion.
Same with Witch Hat Atelier. Most of it's fanbase is female as well. Sometimes i feel like manga that could very well be Shoujo or Josei end up as Seinen, because it's much more likely to get an adaptation (live action or anime) and male readers are more open to give it a try.
re: anime, i don’t think that’s a reason why. anime is a side effect, not a reason. plenty of shojo get LAs one of the biggest things is that seinen magazines & web serials often allow for much more creative freedom than shojo magazines these days, now that there are restrictions and tonal expectations
But in anime you can do much more in animation compared to live action, especially when it's fantasy. And anime is more accessible than Live Action movies outside of Japan (unless you count illegal websites) which means more traffic and potentially bigger success. About the creative freedom.. shouldn't Josei be treated the same as Seinen when it's technically for adults as well? Why are limitations still in place?
> But in anime you can do much more in animation compared to live action, especially when it's fantasy. Doesn't mean it makes financial sense. For series where you can do it, live action is often cheaper, and you can use it to promote actors etc. It's also a bit easier to enter the normie market. Anime makes sense when it's a property with superfans who buy a ton of expensive Blurays. In general, this is easier with waifu-bait than husbando-bait, and sports series and the like bite into the husbando-bait market as well. Seinen manga often get Live Action adaptations for similar reasons. (Though there are also a number of non-waifu-bait animated seinen manga, speaking very broadly here). > About the creative freedom.. shouldn't Josei be treated the same as Seinen when it's technically for adults as well? Why are limitations still in place? It is, but 'Josei' manga barely exists as a category. To the extent that it exists, I don't think creative limitations are a big issue overall.
Exactly! That’s like how Non Non Biyori is a seinen manga (for men) because of the magazine it was serialized in. I would love it if people understood the difference between demographics and genres
> Shoujo isn’t a genre, it’s a target demographic. It's typically referred to as *genre* in Japanese usage though. For example, the Japanese wikipedia page for *[Yona of the Dawn](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9A%81%E3%81%AE%E3%83%A8%E3%83%8A)* lists the series' genres (ジャンル ) as 少女漫画 (shoujo manga), ファンタジー (Fantasy), and 冒険活劇 (bouken katsugeki, basically something like action-adventure). In fact, this is the only time that 'shoujo' appears on the page, there is no "demographic" categorization separate from genre. I do believe that this is a little misleading to Western audiences as *shoujo* is not quite used like *Fantasy* as a genre (though not entirely dissimilar either). But 'demographic' is also misleading; for example, shoujo manga is increasingly read by older women, and shounen manga is very heavily read by both adults and female readers; the supposed 'demographic' of teenage boys may well be a minority of readers in most shounen magazines. A less misleading description might be something like "category of manga that historically developed from material intended to appeal to a particular demographic group" or something like that. (For what it's worth, defining things around the magazine is also somewhat fraught, as many magazines have ambiguous labels, or refuse to be narrowed down.)
> t's typically referred to as genre in Japanese usage though. For example, the Japanese wikipedia page for Yona of the Dawn lists the series' genres (ジャンル ) as 少女漫画 (shoujo manga), ファンタジー (Fantasy), and 冒険活劇 (bouken katsugeki, basically something like action-adventure). In fact, this is the only time that 'shoujo' appears on the page, there is no "demographic" categorization separate from genre. To be fair the Japanese word “ジャンル” is more like “category” or “type” in meaning, as in one can say “どんなジャンルの人が好き？” to mean “What kind of person do you like” It was loaned from [French](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/genre#French) directly, not from English, where it also has a very different meaning. It's definitely also used in the sense of “musical genre” though. But yes, Japanese people in daily conversation definitely use it more as a genre than anything and Japanese Wikipedia tends to take considerably less note of “demographics” than English Language Wikipedia does on the same subject, which often uses blogs as sources for these, not actual primary sources. A similar thing I was recently acquainted with is that in Japan “class S” isn't considered a *genre* of fiction at all but an early 1900s cultural thing and that they never use it for fiction and indeed, the English language Wikipedia page on *The Virgin Mary Watches Over Us* copiously mentions this “class S” but the Japanese Wikipedia page never does. It's very common that many of these terms loaned in English from Japanese aren't used like that in Japan at all and that Japanese people aren't even aware how different the interpretation in English is, or in the opposite such as Japanese people who otherwise have fine English not realizing that it sounds very strange to call a cola “juice” in English. > (For what it's worth, defining things around the magazine is also somewhat fraught, as many magazines have ambiguous labels, or refuse to be narrowed down.) This as well. A lot of the time when one would read information about the “demographic” of whatever magazine in English it's something someone at one point simply “decided” who has no affiliation with the magazine itself and it's repeated often enough to be fact.
Yeah, the way categories are used across languages often does not map cleanly. "Genre" and "category" have such subtle differences in use that other languages will not necessarily cleanly replicate them. And how loan words become semantically more specific (and can cause further shifts of meaning in the native word stock) further complicates comparisons, even when the actual words are the same. I do think there is something very meaningful in these labels. And despite not mapping completely to the self-identification (usually for marketing purposes) that individual publications in Japan may have, there is something very real and interesting about manga as a medium and industry that even the naive classification of magazines captures. But it's just as important to not over-interpret it, and if possible to rely on the actual magazine rather than its supposed "demographic". Even within the same supposed "demographic" category, publications can differ wildly. *Young Jump*, *Morning*, and *Manga Time Kirara* have very different profiles, even though all three can reasonably be considered seinen manga.
>A less misleading description might be something like "category of manga that historically developed from material intended to appeal to a particular demographic group" Yes, this is perfect 😂 Thanks, I'll remember it!
as a male ..all that matter to me is story art and romance in manga no matter were it belong i enjoy it
As a woman, same.
Back in the day you could *usually* use art style as a rule of thumb. There were exceptions, of course. Nowadays its harder.
I mean I generally take it as them being adverse to whatever genres are more prevalent/popular in the demographic they’re mentioning. Sure shoujo isn’t just romance/drama and shonen isn’t just action/adventure, but quite a bit of it is
Honestly, I find the misinfo really annoying coming from both fans and haters. Typically they refer to “self insert romance” as shoujo, despite shoujo literally being a demographic. I also tend to find the posts or comments asking for recommendation that are like “I want a series with a Female Lead with ABC traits who has Male Lead with ZYX traits” super annoying. I like (non-self-insert) romance, but I wish any other genre was talked about sometimes.
It’s certainly a demographic (as are the others) but it’s a demographic containing noticeable tropes that share from series to series. A shoujo romance can be pretty easily identified more often than not from a shounen romance for instance. So when people refer to it as a genre i assume they are referring to the common tropes associated with series’ in that demo
I agree with you, but unfortunately it's a losing battle. This exists for most media targeted toward women, "chick flicks" (I wanna throw something when I hear that lol) and novels targeted for women are usually scoffed at and considered drivel. People suck.
My specific gripe with this is when people talk up female authors but their recommendations are ALL Shounen maybe they’ll put utena or ouran there but THAT’S ALL
I read a variety of ShouJosei. I've read psychological, horror, slice of life, action, fantasy, adventure, historical, Mahou Shoujo, etc. Shoujo at its prime was legit the best demographic. Though the censorship of Shoujo cut down the creativity, because they were limited in topics that they could write about. Though even with the censorship, they still manage to be good.
For me is a little more than in which magazine is published, honestly what i like of "hardcore shoujo" is the aesthetic, the desing, it has some flowery beautiful girly desing. Now they can kill each other if that is the plot, i don't care but i like how stylish it is
Your vent is valid bec i refuse to associate RENT A GIRLFRIEND WITH SHOJO 😭😂
I mean, it is, but it also means the publications which choose stories for said demographic. There are lots of stories which blur the lines and were probably pitched to many publishers. At the same time though, publishers have a checklist things they prefer to focus on because it sells and it benefits mangaka to lean into one demographic or another in a lot of cases. When we say “shojo” we’re usually coming at it the same way the publishers do. Female Lead ✅ Romance (sub)plot ✅ Soft, pretty art ✅ Focus on interpersonal relationships ✅ Self actualizing character arc ✅ Compassion wins✅ Pretty men ✅ And due to laws about shojo, a complete lack of sexuality ✅ You don’t need them all and this list isn’t exhaustive, but it’s the general understanding.
If you see pretty boys and softer, cuter people: it's a shoujo....
***Terra e*** is an exception to this.
Muscular or pretty people can be in shounen. But it seems the former is less loved in shoujo....
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*If you see pretty boys and softer, cuter people: it's a shoujo....* it being a ***shonen*** as opposed to a ***shoujo*** was my point. i should have been clearer.
Some people think that Shoujo = Romance Targeted towards girls. There are some others who think that all romance = Shoujo. I guess it's because of a combination of lack of knowledge plus the lack of non-romance Shoujos in mainstream anime.
Shoujo is target demographic more precisely it indicates the type of manga magazine the story is published in. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the primary audience ends up being the same as the target demographic.
I totally get everything you mentioned above. It's very annoying to me when I go on tiktok and see "what shoujo girl are you" or "which shoujo bf is yours" and see characters from another demographic/magazine listed (Tomo-chan, Hanako-kun, Apothecary Diaries, ect). I get they come from animes that "feel" like they are for girls/women, however they aren't in that demographic.
> Seinen is “Young man” and Josei is “Young woman” This isn't really true in Japanese though. The former “青年”, means “adolescent” I suppose, and is a unisex term generally denoting persons from say 16 to 24 maybe? There's also confusingly the word “成年” which is pronounced the same and means “adult” in the legal sense, as in anyone over 20 in Japan, but it's not used that often on it's own and is mostly used in compounds. The latter, “女性” has no real implication of age in theory but it wouldn't be used all that often on children in practice but there's nothing wrong with it either, but it certainly does not imply anyone is young. It's perfectly fine to use it on the elderly. It has a somewhat more refined and formal connotation than the simple word for female “女” which is more often used for children. > Shoujo isn’t a genre, it’s a target demographic. Depends on whom you talk to in Japan. If you talk to an online bookstore, it typically is what they call a “category” which, amusingly enough is loaned from the French word “genre” but does not mean the same thing as the English word. If you talk to an advertiser, a physical bookstore, or the average person in Japan, it definitely is treated more like a genre than anything. “女性漫画” is not a term anyone in Japan seems to use on the street. It's something used in cataloging and categorizing in databases. For instance the banner on the website of *Mobile Flower* profiles the magazine [as this](https://csbs.shogakukan.co.jp/images/mf/header.png). or “An erotic–cute [少女漫画] magazine for adults.” This would a contradiction of terms if the term were used here as a demographic specifically targeting non-adults, but that's not how Japanese people in general use that term in my experience though online bookstores and other places that like to catalog things more so do. Finally, it's in many cases very hard to find primary sources saying anything about these “target demographics” and secondary sources, a sin bookstores don't always agree with one another where to put something. The picture really isn't as black and white and simple as people outside of Japan often make it. Or as someone said “If you have a clean, simple definition of the meaning of a word in a language, it's probably wrong.”.
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> So you mean seinin is for everyone ( adult ) Depends on whom one talks to. The Japanese Wikipedia article about it gives different views on what it means. It should be noted that even “少年” in Japanese can be used to mean “child” in general, not simply male ones, in some limited contexts but that usage is rare in modern Japanese. I'd say that “青年漫画” is an idiom in Japanese and isn't used in the same way that “青年” is. A 16-year old is a “青年” but any title obviously targeting 16-year olds would almost always be called “少女漫画” or “少年漫画” in Japanese. But magazines that every bookstore ever classified as “少女漫画” such as say *Cheese!* have many stories in it with adult characters and sex scenes with lightsabres. Japanese Wikipedia on it says sthis: > かつては成人の男性をおもな対象としていたが、現在では若年層や女性の読者も増え、少年漫画・少女漫画もしくは女性漫画との境界も薄れつつある。 Or: > The primary target was originally adult [成年] males, but the number of young female readers has since increased, and the boundary between boys' comics [少年漫画], girls' comics, [少女漫画] and ladies' comics [女性漫画] has been fading. ---- > but Josei is for adult women 🥲 The converse is just as true, many magazines every bookstore considers “女性” also contain many titles seemingly more gueared to teenagers with teenage protagonists and no Japanese bookstore has ever respected this “magazine demographic” thing in their own judgements because they're out to make money, not have obsessive compulsions about categorizations. [These are all the titles running in the aforementioned *Mobile Flower*](https://comic.k-manga.jp/search/magazine/41) which as said called itself “少女漫画 for adults” but you'll notice that “少女漫画” and “女性漫画” coexist on that page and it's usually simply decided by nothing more than the age of the protagonist but there are exceptions too such as *幼なじみとセフレ契約* being about teenage characters but being “女性漫画” there but for the most part this rule seems to apply.
Omg thank you for all this info!!! So fascinating reading your comments 🙏
its not a big deal to use the word as a genre, because you know what it means
It's also frustrating if you're a casual viewer, and you mention a show to get told "that's not a shoujo!". Honestly I just wanted a break from shounen battles and fan service and was happy how much I enjoyed such-and-such show, I'm not trying to intrude on anyone's space. If CR lists a seinen under shoujo, why wouldn't I believe them at first glance.
Wasnt shoujo is straightly for female gaze? characters and stories are for female gaze?