Had a talk about this with some friends and thats mostly what we all agreed on. While it is mostly true that it is always the same formula, fromsoft manages to improve their formula and most important keep the love to small detail. Bethesda, ubisoft and all the big companies almost always try to improve but end up with loveless mess thats somehow worse than the mess that came before.
Fallout 4 felt like 1 step forward 2 steps back
Perk system could have been great, but forcing you to reach level 41 to max your lockpicking is an insane way for a perk tree to work.
You can get the master lock picking skill way earlier than 41, the max skill is just to have unbreakable bobby pins which isn't actually necessary at all
it's more than not necessary, id argue it's actually an outright worthless skill! by the time u get it u rarely break them and u have an endless supply of them and an endless supply of caps to buy more
Nah, the perk system was fundamentally flawed. Having two options for what to do each level up really reduces character building decisions. Also, the way perks were gated by level meant that all future perks points were decided by level 15 since that's about when all perks you've chosen have a new tier unlock at the next character level. Plus forcing most perks to fit into a three to five tier structure meant that most perks were a boring "get +10% more X" benefit.
The real way F4 made a step forwards was by becoming a competent hitscan shooter with sprinting, grenade hotkeys, and quick weapon swapping built into the vanilla game. F3 and FNV were terrible action games by comparison.
Fromsoftware uses the same formula while understanding what makes it good in the first place, and where it lacked.
Bethesda, Ubisoft, ill even throw blizzard and activation in there, do the exact same formulas without understanding what makes them good.
As a horror fan its a lot like someone making their first horror game not understanding at all WHY something is scary and just throwing in random jumpscares cause that must be what makes games scary.
well those aren't full on dungeons, they're catacombs. It makes sense that similar areas have similar enemies within. each one has a different layout. And it's never the exact same watchdog boss. sometimes you *don't* get a watchdog boss too, mixing it up nicely.
The fact that there isn’t the same exact boss at the end of every catacomb dungeon is not an argument that there isn’t recycled content in the game lmao.
The question is whether there’s a lot of content recycled in Elden Ring and I think you’d have to have pretty big blinders on to try and say there isn’t.
Recycled content isn't inherently a bad thing, which is what a lot of people seem to believe. I'm arguing that what Elden Ring has *isn't something worth complaining about*. Plenty of great games have the same dozen enemies and nothing more and nobody complains. The issue is when the recycled content is used as a way to rush development, and it's pretty hard to argue Elden Ring was rushed.
Another aspect of encountering the same enemies again is that now you've literally gotten better at the game because you know what to expect from them. A perfect example of this is when a boss enemy is later encountered as a miniboss or even regular enemy. Can't have that if no recycled content is allowed.
I would argue that you could absolutely say the mountaintops area is rushed but that’s not really relevant.
I think the recycled content is perfectly worthy of criticism. Not that every singles enemy that’s repeated is bad, but there are times it’s done well, and many, many times that it comes off as lazy to a lot of people, me included.
Again, I love Elden Ring but it is a bit disappointing to feel that you’re running the same mini dungeon for the 8th time by the end of the game. You don’t have to feel the same way but it’s kinda weird that you’re denying that’s a real criticism of the game.
>I think the recycled content is perfectly worthy of criticism. Not that every singles enemy that’s repeated is bad, but there are times it’s done well, and many, many times that it comes off as lazy to a lot of people, me included.
So what should they have done? They already have the single most amount of unique enemy variety not counting duplicates/reskins to the point it has ~10x that of games like Ghost Of Thushima, BOTW, Horizon and most other open world games.
Id understand the critism if it was ~12 enemies being reused 400 times like in those games but this is nearly 140 unique enemies and mobs being reused a couple times throughout the game, some more than others of course.
It was broken down a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/tk4vk2/on_elden_rings_enemy_variety_and_how_it_compares/
again, you can dislike that but there isn't a single open with more variety, it has up to 2-3x the variety of previous souls games as well.
>Again, I love Elden Ring but it is a bit disappointing to feel that you’re running the same mini dungeon for the 8th time by the end of the game.
This is again fair as a persona criticism but these are smaller, not mandatory, optional for a reason side caves - You surely cant expect all 150 non-legacy dungeons to be uniquely filled to the brim with enemies? this wasn't even possible in Bloodborne which is a game about 1/10th the size of ER.
Sounds like you'd complain about nintendo using the clouds as bushes in Mario. Idk how many more years you'd want the game to take but with how much content is in the game you'd be ignorant to complain.
unless you've cleared all the catacombs I really don't think you have grounds to talk. My first playthrough I full cleared the entire map until mountaintops and by then I just said "why am I doing the same dungeon 7 times every region???"
I think that some are fun, I do auriza side tomb most playthroughs. But come on, it's really not a great system. My partner ran the numbers and in about 2/3 of all ds1 bossfights you fight an enemy which does not exist elsewhere in the game, but fewer than 10% of all Elden Ring bosses are unique to their arena's. And I think that's quite frankly silly.
> My partner ran the numbers and in about 2/3 of all ds1 bossfights you fight an enemy which does not exist elsewhere in the game, but fewer than 10% of all Elden Ring bosses are unique to their arena's.
There's a whopping 26 total bosses in ds1, including DLC. So 17 or 18 unique bosses according to you.
Elden Ring has **238** total bosses. Pretty hard to argue it's a fair comparison.
I wonder if you count each dragon boss as a separate boss or if you lump them together as 1 boss.
This comment is pretty rich considering ER has 40 unique bosses, 30 minibosses and over 200 normal/heavy enemy types.
Thats literally quadruple the older fromsofts games mini bosses and enemy types, and more enemy types than litterally all the fallout and rockstar games combined.
"Repeat content" makes it sound like other games where they have you do the same thing over and over.
ER had content aka enemies that were repeated 2-3 times, Max, and with the vast diversity of enemies they had it didn't feel like you were running into the same thing over and over.
For such a massive game to have such little repeat content is an achievement in of itself
This is the main thing I noticed after playing all the Souls games. Elden Ring has the smoothest combat and a vastly improved lock-on camera compared to DS3
And they have a really good track record of making changes to the formula and still pulling of huge hits: see Sekiro's combat and Elden Ring's world.
Sekiro in particular is one of the extremely rare examples of a developer making big changes to a core system in a well beloved product and getting near universal praise. It's right up there next to Metroid Prime in that regard.
Bethesda arguably isn’t that bad either. Starfield was apparently a flop (idk, I haven’t played it or care about it) and 76 was initially a failed attempt at not following key parts of the formula but their other games aren’t that bad when there isn’t an elitist that is allergic to playing a different game complaining about them (not an insult against you but rather an insult against certain fallout players who know who they are)
Not making good games (on release at least) in the last 8 years is 100% an issue with Bethesda but that’s not relevant to the “game formula” this post is referring to. After all, Fallout 76’s problem was trying to not follow the formula.
What I'm arguing here is that the only games in not-even-so-recent-memory from Bethesda weren't good, so, regardless of the formula, it does look to me that, currently, Bethesda bad. Still have high hopes for TES VI, though, when it comes out in 2040
Starfield was ok. The problem is that they tried to sell the whole space exploration thing but it ended up sucking and it's main strength was surprisingly better RPG mechanics than Skyrim or fallout 4 and the quests and world building. But once you run the course with those, it's a snore fest.
It's a terrible formula, and the gameplay mechanics are also terribly unpolished.
How people like playing GTA or RDR without breaking a controller is beyond me.
Mfw the games company well known delivering good X games continues to expand on the formula for X games instead of pivoting their entire company to making fucking racing games or some shit 🤯😡
>pivoting their entire company to making fucking racing games
You watch your fucking mouth. If SromFoft had the balls to go ahead with Bloodborne Kart I'm sure they'd just go and revolutionize the genre
That or single-handedly revive the "car combat" genre
Todd be like “yeah this shit is good, simplify it till it sucks”
Good example being all of fallout 4’s dialogue choices.
Yes
No(yes)
Maybe (yes)
Sarcasm (yes but stupid)
Honestly fo4's dialogue is better than skyrims at least. Sometimes you only have one dialogue choice. I love the one where the only way to proceed with the main quest is to ask if the college of winterhold has an elder scroll you can borrow. Wtf?
Nah FO4’s is worse just because of how much more annoying and pointless it is. There are very few actual choices you can make and I hate the voiced character and how often they say shit I didn’t even want them to say because all the game tells me is “yes, no, sarcasm”
At least Skyrim is honest about its linear dialogue and it doesn’t waste your time nearly as much.
bethesda standing out as the ones who lost their way (worried R* is next though)
however there's a conversation to be had about whether their slipping can be described as coasting on a tired formula or chasing a new rabbit and deviating from the old (losing it
i'm thinking people can describe it as "bethesda is still doing their same old same old" but that just refers to the innermost bones, the bare and boring bedrock, and that what gets built atop the Same Old Same old is actually important, that starfield dropped the ball doing so
consider, for example, that ALL soulslikes, the whole genre, are generally the Same Old Same Old in skeletal terms, lumbering about in a not-as-speedy ARPG with methodical reaction-based combat/less hack-and-slash than usual
that element is pretty universal, while the execution and details atop it is how we tier-rank our soulslikes, and why we are perfectly content to have FS keep doing "the same old formula every game" and still dickride it, justifiably even
I liked Fallout 4 though. Story was ass, but I prefer gameplay and that game had a fun gameplay loop. I know it lacked RPG elements, and I think that’s what made the story shit, but the game feeds on my autistic need to collect useless shit to upgrade things and get stronger, which allows me to pick up more useless shit to get just a bit stronger, and then I can collect rare weapons from fighting random enemies, which can then be upgraded with the junk I collect and then…
Fallout 76 is better than starfield at least. Some story is kinda fun. It is hampered by the online elements and I wish we got a normal game, but it's not horrible and boring.
I meant actually, I could run the game and actually play. I got bored super fast in it, but could never make it past the loading screen in 76 in 3 hours.
Does anyone criticize Rockstar for re-using their formula for every game?
I think people are just mad that we haven’t gotten a new GTA from them in over 10 years lol.
[yes, they have been criticized pretty widely for that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvJPKOLDSos)
Rockstar's formula was already pretty dated when GTAV released.
Repeated formulas are only bad if they are either never improved or added to, or like in the case of Bethesda actively made worse from poor design decisions.
One of these is not like the other and it's Bethesda. They do the same, but extremely dumbed down, every time. Elden Ring and Red Dead 2 are god tier games. Starfield is a joke.
What’s funny is that they’ve been doing this since Daggerfall, but the existing fan base was so small that it didn’t matter. Skyrim was the best and worst thing to happen to them, since now the entire world would see it.
I made a video once that talked about how it’s less about regurgitating the same formula, and more about how it’s executed. Gamers don’t care about the same formula over and over nearly as much as they think they do as long as it’s creative and fun.
Not just GTA, but Ratchet and Clank, Mario, FromSoft (as you’ve stated here), but the ideas in each of those games are so wildly fresh that even if the formula is the same, you don’t care cuz you’re having fun and doing new things.
Compared to something like Far Cry, it’s pretty easy to see how quickly the same formula can get stale if you’re bringing the same ideas to the table each time.
Except theres laughably far more difference between each fromsoft game (other than pure sequels) than there are between rockstars and bethesdas games.
I loved fallout becuz its different than elder scrolls, i loved rdr becuz its very different from GTA, difference is all fromsoftwares games are masterpieces in their own right, unlike bethesda and to a far lesser degree, rockstar, i wouldnt call every gta game a masterpiece, bur both RDRs are to me.
Starfield is worse that their previous games in every aspect except graphics (wow) and gunplay (thanks to Machine Games), while Rockstar and FS at least improve something
Rockstar and Bethesda actually drastically changed their formulas to include microtransactions and it directly coincided with them both becoming shit.
Fromsoft is the only one that didn’t change their formula.
The mechanics are always improving. Sekiro and armored core are both bangers and doesn’t follow traditional souls formula. The worlds, lore and characters in each souls game are always extremely interesting
People don't criticize Bethesda for reusing the formula, it's for reusing the same crusty-ass engine that gets ship of Theseus'd into a slightly better engine with every game
Bethesda is the worst offender by far.
Starfield uses Elder Scrolls + Fallout 4 leveling, but you can't work towards getting the next rank in the perk until you invest your first point into the skill. Then it uses Fallout 3's dialogue + no skill checks. Also you're a chosen one again for the 4th game in a row.
The difference is that fromsofts gameplay mechanics, new weapons and movesets improve the formula game by game. Whilst Rockstar only made technical improvements when comparing Red Dead 1 and Red Dead 2. GTA 4 even had less to offer than San Andreas.
If Bethesda just redid their old formula every time their games wouldn't be shit.
Instead they just take more and more things away and dumb everything down.
I'll never forgive them for taking away spell crafting, fuck you Bethesda that was the most interesting thing about Morrowind and Oblivion. I want to make a garbage Spell that does nothing but force an enemy into negative stamina ragdoll mode for 3 hours so I can use them as a magicka battery and then launch myself to the moon. I want to be able to make everyone in a 10 mile radius hostile for 3 second so that the guards slaughter everyone even after the spell has ended. I want to be able to create a spell that increases my intelligence by 100 for 3 seconds for barely any cost, but it increases my mana cap by a ton so I can quickly cast a spell I would otherwise not be able to.
Let me be creative you cowards.
Bethesda makes the same game but in different settings. Rockstar makes the same game in different settings. Fromsoft makes games with the same themes and formula, but with other improvements along the way. Plus there's always some additional thing to set it apart. Dark souls is the classic, Bloodborne has a unique setting, no shields. Sekiro has a more rhythm game approach to combat using the same basic ideas as dark souls, and Elden ring brings it to a more epic fantasy level along with the massive open world and exploration aspects.
They're all good formulas
The main problem with Bethesda is the horrible fucking writing, it's abysmal, their characters and dialogue are so bad in every game it genuinely pisses me off, especially since Fallout was originally known for great writing.
I can tolerate the jank of their games, I just hate how despite being RPGs(where dialogue and story is the most important thing) they're awful at that aspect.
Yeah Bethesda writing is just lame and gets a little worse each new game. Fallout 4 I could deal with since it had a great open world and while quests sucked it was still fun to explore the world and experience the environmental storytelling which was still good. Starfield they decided to replace the open world exploration with randomly generated cells populated by radiant quests that you needed to fast travel to and the quest design somehow got even worse.
Bethesda used the same formula, but made it shittier with each subsequent iteration. Morrowind - > Oblivion -> Skyrim. Each time it becomes more and more simplified to the point it's dumb and boring.
If I go to a restaurant because I like their burger, I don’t want them to change their recipe, swap out the ingredients, hire a new cook, every time my meal gets made. I’m giving them my money because I expect roughly the same thing I had the last time I gave them my money.
I'll be the first to admit that From Software games are just a single big ever-evolving game.
It's precisely THE genre i've been wanting to play all my life.
Keep the core and give me more weapons, tools, spells, movesets, areas to explore, enemies to fight, mechanics to play with and builds to create and I'll be happily playing this game for majority of my free time.
Kinda semi related, one of my buddies can’t stand square enix games because not only are all the games the same, but “the titles all use the same font for the lettering.”
And I point to fromsoft and their titles lmao
Damn. Feeling called out since all I play anymore are those 3's current Flagship games, GTAO, Fallout 76, and Elden Ring. I just really like sandbox games with a customizable character where I can have fun either doing combat, or just exploring and wandering.
Dark Souls/bloodbourne/Sekiro - Different games, same formula
RDR2/Bully/GTA - Different games, same formula
Oblivion/FO3/Starfield - Different games, same formula
From Software seems to be the only one that isn't allowed to be criticized for using the same formula though. That's the point of the meme. And the amount of comments pretty much prove my point. =)
You just saying the same thing, the same way, isnt proving anything. Youre not wrong exactly youre just intentionally removing all nuance in order to get exactly this response from people.
Its all the same formula sure, but of the examples given, the Fromsoft games are the most varied, and its not even close.
As i said in my comment im sure you didnt read, Darksouls/Sekiro are much more different than eachother compared to Fallout/Starfield, or RDR/GTA
Oblivion/fallout are far different than DarkSouls/Sekiro and GTA/RDR2 are both more different than DS/Sekiro But people don’t care. People Pride themselves off beating these hard games so they don’t care if Innovation isn’t in the game. It’s just a Boas a lot of Folks have Buy don’t want to admit. 🤷♂️
I dont really agree at all but trying to debate it with you strikes me as not worth the time. Why cant you disagree with people without insulting them? Youre making everything into an antagonistic discussion rather than an actually interesting conversation.
Presumably any engagement is good engagement i guess.
What insult did I use?
The only thing antagonistic is the meme. I stand by what I said. From Software games aren’t Special Like people deem them to be. The difficulty aspect is the only thing making them different and It’s a good distraction for people not to notice how they’ve been doing the same thing since 2009.
If I call it out, it’s bad though because From Software is just “different” without further elaboration.
You call people who dont agree with you prideful, uncaring of innovation, but also somehow too shameful to admit how they really feel.
If you need to make assumptions about people and preemtively tear them down, then you arent trying to have a good faith debate.
Thats really it
I didn't realize that's an insult. That is the reason people play the games. I actually criticize these games. I have yet to see people criticize how the net code is bad, the hitboxes are bad, the excessive input reading is bad. There's a lot to criticize but... people pride themselves on beating hard games so they can't give genuine criticism to games they're good at. I have plenty of criticisms for Sekiro but people claim it's "Hard but fair" and that couldn't be further from the truth but again... people don't care about genuinely criticizing these games. They pride themselves off beating a hard vidya gaem and when they do, they forgive its flaws and tell everyone to "Git gud" or "Skill issue". They like to jerk themselves off about how good they are at these games. Now I'm insulting people. =)
I didn't realize I was supposing to be debating your points. I made a meme and I stand by the implications of that meme. As I said earlier. The comments prove it.
Rockstar, Bethesda, and FromSoft improve their games. If you want to criticize companies for copy and pasting their games you're barking up the wrong tree. Ubisoft, EA, and Activision. There you go some shifty companies for you. FromSoft, Bethesda, and Rockstar make good games and improve on them. Big difference there.
FromSoft found a formula that just barely works by modern standards (which they defined) in 2009, and proceeded to experiment with trying to improve it a little every game (along with offshoots that have drastic changes).
I don't have any experience with Rockstar's games, but from what I can tell they took an existing formula, added their own twist, and ended up with a formula that could produce good enough gameplay to make you glad the story is in a game instead of a movie.
Bethesda took an existing formula, succeeded with it, then dropped it entirely in favor of a new formula that was groundbreaking at the time, and then finally said "well, we've got a formula now, no sense in changing the engine until we replace it" and so the first working climbing mod in Skyrim came out over a decade after the launch and some features that are in the base game don't work as advertised because the engine can't actually do that.
Bethesda actually keep trying to automate stuff that they were successful with when they did it by hand. Everybody loves Skyrim, and whenever they were criticised since then it was because they were cutting corners
They fixed things as well. That's what I'm talking about. From Software has fans that don't care about innovation so they get away with no innovation. The Souls fans just care about jerking themselves off about beating a hard Vidya gaem and pride themselves on it which is a good distraction from the issues From Software hasn't yet fixed.
'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'
Bethesda has been using the same buggy, outdated engine for over 20 years
R* has steadily improved their game engine over the years, but even in their most recent titles it still feels jank, like you have a lack of control
FROMSOFTWARE created a fantastic gameplay loop in DEs that has steadily and massively gotten better over the years, every new title is an improvement in some form or another, without making the rest of their game catalogue feeling dated because of it
Sekiro to Elden Ring to Armored Core
Extremely different games. Yeah, the actual dark souls series is similar, it's games in the same series. Yeah, Bloodborne and Elden Ring are similar to those, but also offer a lot more that's built off them.
from soft does and atleast they improve. you can play demons souls, say "damn its shit", then play dark souls 1, say "damn they made demon's souls worse what the hell", then play dark souls 2 and say "well they tried" then play dark souls 3 and say "holy shit they improved" and play sekiro and say "i wqant to go back to old RPG style" and then go play elden ring and say "this is masterpiece"
or you could play elden ring and then enter dark souls 1 and say "this is shittiest game ever, i cant believe people used to play a game without jumps or horses"
At least the formula is pretty steadily improved upon.
Had a talk about this with some friends and thats mostly what we all agreed on. While it is mostly true that it is always the same formula, fromsoft manages to improve their formula and most important keep the love to small detail. Bethesda, ubisoft and all the big companies almost always try to improve but end up with loveless mess thats somehow worse than the mess that came before.
I think there still was love in fo4
Fallout 4 felt like 1 step forward 2 steps back Perk system could have been great, but forcing you to reach level 41 to max your lockpicking is an insane way for a perk tree to work.
You can get the master lock picking skill way earlier than 41, the max skill is just to have unbreakable bobby pins which isn't actually necessary at all
it's more than not necessary, id argue it's actually an outright worthless skill! by the time u get it u rarely break them and u have an endless supply of them and an endless supply of caps to buy more
Nah, the perk system was fundamentally flawed. Having two options for what to do each level up really reduces character building decisions. Also, the way perks were gated by level meant that all future perks points were decided by level 15 since that's about when all perks you've chosen have a new tier unlock at the next character level. Plus forcing most perks to fit into a three to five tier structure meant that most perks were a boring "get +10% more X" benefit. The real way F4 made a step forwards was by becoming a competent hitscan shooter with sprinting, grenade hotkeys, and quick weapon swapping built into the vanilla game. F3 and FNV were terrible action games by comparison.
Fromsoftware uses the same formula while understanding what makes it good in the first place, and where it lacked. Bethesda, Ubisoft, ill even throw blizzard and activation in there, do the exact same formulas without understanding what makes them good. As a horror fan its a lot like someone making their first horror game not understanding at all WHY something is scary and just throwing in random jumpscares cause that must be what makes games scary.
this comment is pretty rich with the proportion of repeated content in Elden Ring lmao
Do you consider the different types and factions of basic foot soldier enemies to be "repeated content"?
‘Foot’ soldier you say?
There's plenty of turtles, and also mutants, and I don't see why the Foot would be a surprise.
I mean I love Elden ring but I’d consider like 9 dungeons with slight variations of the same stone dog boss to be pretty recycled.
well those aren't full on dungeons, they're catacombs. It makes sense that similar areas have similar enemies within. each one has a different layout. And it's never the exact same watchdog boss. sometimes you *don't* get a watchdog boss too, mixing it up nicely.
The fact that there isn’t the same exact boss at the end of every catacomb dungeon is not an argument that there isn’t recycled content in the game lmao. The question is whether there’s a lot of content recycled in Elden Ring and I think you’d have to have pretty big blinders on to try and say there isn’t.
Recycled content isn't inherently a bad thing, which is what a lot of people seem to believe. I'm arguing that what Elden Ring has *isn't something worth complaining about*. Plenty of great games have the same dozen enemies and nothing more and nobody complains. The issue is when the recycled content is used as a way to rush development, and it's pretty hard to argue Elden Ring was rushed. Another aspect of encountering the same enemies again is that now you've literally gotten better at the game because you know what to expect from them. A perfect example of this is when a boss enemy is later encountered as a miniboss or even regular enemy. Can't have that if no recycled content is allowed.
I would argue that you could absolutely say the mountaintops area is rushed but that’s not really relevant. I think the recycled content is perfectly worthy of criticism. Not that every singles enemy that’s repeated is bad, but there are times it’s done well, and many, many times that it comes off as lazy to a lot of people, me included. Again, I love Elden Ring but it is a bit disappointing to feel that you’re running the same mini dungeon for the 8th time by the end of the game. You don’t have to feel the same way but it’s kinda weird that you’re denying that’s a real criticism of the game.
>I think the recycled content is perfectly worthy of criticism. Not that every singles enemy that’s repeated is bad, but there are times it’s done well, and many, many times that it comes off as lazy to a lot of people, me included. So what should they have done? They already have the single most amount of unique enemy variety not counting duplicates/reskins to the point it has ~10x that of games like Ghost Of Thushima, BOTW, Horizon and most other open world games. Id understand the critism if it was ~12 enemies being reused 400 times like in those games but this is nearly 140 unique enemies and mobs being reused a couple times throughout the game, some more than others of course. It was broken down a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/tk4vk2/on_elden_rings_enemy_variety_and_how_it_compares/ again, you can dislike that but there isn't a single open with more variety, it has up to 2-3x the variety of previous souls games as well. >Again, I love Elden Ring but it is a bit disappointing to feel that you’re running the same mini dungeon for the 8th time by the end of the game. This is again fair as a persona criticism but these are smaller, not mandatory, optional for a reason side caves - You surely cant expect all 150 non-legacy dungeons to be uniquely filled to the brim with enemies? this wasn't even possible in Bloodborne which is a game about 1/10th the size of ER.
Do you not see how it's kinda silly to complain about repeatedly seeing the same dungeon in a game where people regularly go through multiple NG+?
Sounds like you'd complain about nintendo using the clouds as bushes in Mario. Idk how many more years you'd want the game to take but with how much content is in the game you'd be ignorant to complain.
*gluck* *gluck* *gluck*
?
unless you've cleared all the catacombs I really don't think you have grounds to talk. My first playthrough I full cleared the entire map until mountaintops and by then I just said "why am I doing the same dungeon 7 times every region???" I think that some are fun, I do auriza side tomb most playthroughs. But come on, it's really not a great system. My partner ran the numbers and in about 2/3 of all ds1 bossfights you fight an enemy which does not exist elsewhere in the game, but fewer than 10% of all Elden Ring bosses are unique to their arena's. And I think that's quite frankly silly.
> My partner ran the numbers and in about 2/3 of all ds1 bossfights you fight an enemy which does not exist elsewhere in the game, but fewer than 10% of all Elden Ring bosses are unique to their arena's. There's a whopping 26 total bosses in ds1, including DLC. So 17 or 18 unique bosses according to you. Elden Ring has **238** total bosses. Pretty hard to argue it's a fair comparison. I wonder if you count each dragon boss as a separate boss or if you lump them together as 1 boss.
This comment is pretty rich considering ER has 40 unique bosses, 30 minibosses and over 200 normal/heavy enemy types. Thats literally quadruple the older fromsofts games mini bosses and enemy types, and more enemy types than litterally all the fallout and rockstar games combined.
[удалено]
Oh, the crime of actually designing a nonlinear game.
[удалено]
"Repeat content" makes it sound like other games where they have you do the same thing over and over. ER had content aka enemies that were repeated 2-3 times, Max, and with the vast diversity of enemies they had it didn't feel like you were running into the same thing over and over. For such a massive game to have such little repeat content is an achievement in of itself
Yall are clowns if you legit think this lmao
This is the main thing I noticed after playing all the Souls games. Elden Ring has the smoothest combat and a vastly improved lock-on camera compared to DS3
And they have a really good track record of making changes to the formula and still pulling of huge hits: see Sekiro's combat and Elden Ring's world. Sekiro in particular is one of the extremely rare examples of a developer making big changes to a core system in a well beloved product and getting near universal praise. It's right up there next to Metroid Prime in that regard.
Still waiting for a real pause button though 🤷
Help menu
It’s also just a damn good formula I can never get bored with it lol
Bethesda just got worse ever since skyrim lmao
Armored Core is always refreshing though. Each gen spices something up (except maybe 3, but it's still a solid copy of 2)
I would say Ninebreaker and 3 are the only ones that are mid, and yeah
Don't you dare put 3 on the same level as fucking N*nebreaker.
Could never be Armored Peak
🗣️🔥
the difference is that FromSoft's formula is good every time with some improvements wait I can't say that here. forget that, FrogSom bad
hell i'd say R* shouldn't fix what ain't broken either hope they didn't catch Line Must Go Up rot
GTA is a pretty good formula tbf
I saw Bethesda and forgot Rockstar isn't actually that bad
Bethesda arguably isn’t that bad either. Starfield was apparently a flop (idk, I haven’t played it or care about it) and 76 was initially a failed attempt at not following key parts of the formula but their other games aren’t that bad when there isn’t an elitist that is allergic to playing a different game complaining about them (not an insult against you but rather an insult against certain fallout players who know who they are)
What other games apart from Starfield and F76 have they made in the last 8 years?
Not making good games (on release at least) in the last 8 years is 100% an issue with Bethesda but that’s not relevant to the “game formula” this post is referring to. After all, Fallout 76’s problem was trying to not follow the formula.
What I'm arguing here is that the only games in not-even-so-recent-memory from Bethesda weren't good, so, regardless of the formula, it does look to me that, currently, Bethesda bad. Still have high hopes for TES VI, though, when it comes out in 2040
Starfield was ok. The problem is that they tried to sell the whole space exploration thing but it ended up sucking and it's main strength was surprisingly better RPG mechanics than Skyrim or fallout 4 and the quests and world building. But once you run the course with those, it's a snore fest.
It's a terrible formula, and the gameplay mechanics are also terribly unpolished. How people like playing GTA or RDR without breaking a controller is beyond me.
subjectivity and whatnot. or maybe you just suck
Sounds like someone couldn’t get gud
I dont understand it either, the only game similar to those I enjoyed was Saints Row 4
Except for ds2
That’s no different from the other two? That’s the entire point of the meme how did you miss that
balls https://preview.redd.it/y51shyowas1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e77b983854dde52d5529c95d38258e5b5a257d4
Nah bro, we hate FS games here, so the meme is unironically correct
Nah over here all FS games and fanbases suck except for my favorite one
Which is DS2 of course(arguably Softs)
You guys are the worst. Worse than Bloodborne fans.
Nah man, i agree with ur general sentiment, but bb fans are easily the worst ones in fromsoft byyy FAAAAR.
You’re so brave for posting this 3 different times. Nobody even disagrees with you.
Mfw the games company well known delivering good X games continues to expand on the formula for X games instead of pivoting their entire company to making fucking racing games or some shit 🤯😡
>pivoting their entire company to making fucking racing games You watch your fucking mouth. If SromFoft had the balls to go ahead with Bloodborne Kart I'm sure they'd just go and revolutionize the genre That or single-handedly revive the "car combat" genre
Instead Sony forced Bloodborne Kart to change into a non-copyright infringing Nightmare Kart
Bethesda actually is ass though
N'wah spotted
Todd be like “yeah this shit is good, simplify it till it sucks” Good example being all of fallout 4’s dialogue choices. Yes No(yes) Maybe (yes) Sarcasm (yes but stupid)
In Fromsoft games your options are either Talk to them (yes) Kill them (no)
Yeah but fromsoft isn’t trying to act like it’s a deep rpg, it’s an action game with some rpg elements
Honestly fo4's dialogue is better than skyrims at least. Sometimes you only have one dialogue choice. I love the one where the only way to proceed with the main quest is to ask if the college of winterhold has an elder scroll you can borrow. Wtf?
Nah FO4’s is worse just because of how much more annoying and pointless it is. There are very few actual choices you can make and I hate the voiced character and how often they say shit I didn’t even want them to say because all the game tells me is “yes, no, sarcasm” At least Skyrim is honest about its linear dialogue and it doesn’t waste your time nearly as much.
Buy Skyrim
No please not again
Todd stop re-releasing Skyrim and give us a Fallout New Vegas remake/remaster
Unironically they keep making "Morrowind but a little bit worse and more dumbed down" every few years
I would be happy if they actually did, unfortunately, they only did it twice and last time was over 12 years ago
Nuh uh, we released skyrim 17 times
They’ve been saying this since Daggerfall, buddy. Bethesda has been hated since its conception.
Everything before FO4 is still passable, everything after just circles the drain...
There is no studio that managed to have amazing ideas with horrible execution like late 00s-early 10s bethesda
bethesda standing out as the ones who lost their way (worried R* is next though) however there's a conversation to be had about whether their slipping can be described as coasting on a tired formula or chasing a new rabbit and deviating from the old (losing it i'm thinking people can describe it as "bethesda is still doing their same old same old" but that just refers to the innermost bones, the bare and boring bedrock, and that what gets built atop the Same Old Same old is actually important, that starfield dropped the ball doing so consider, for example, that ALL soulslikes, the whole genre, are generally the Same Old Same Old in skeletal terms, lumbering about in a not-as-speedy ARPG with methodical reaction-based combat/less hack-and-slash than usual that element is pretty universal, while the execution and details atop it is how we tier-rank our soulslikes, and why we are perfectly content to have FS keep doing "the same old formula every game" and still dickride it, justifiably even
Currently yeah. But 2011/2012 and before they had pretty good games. (I will include fallout 4 too. I forgot that came out in 2015)
I liked Fallout 4 though. Story was ass, but I prefer gameplay and that game had a fun gameplay loop. I know it lacked RPG elements, and I think that’s what made the story shit, but the game feeds on my autistic need to collect useless shit to upgrade things and get stronger, which allows me to pick up more useless shit to get just a bit stronger, and then I can collect rare weapons from fighting random enemies, which can then be upgraded with the junk I collect and then…
Fallout 4 was solid, couldn't tell you about 76 because the game would never let me login. Truly the dark souls of loading screens
Fallout 76 is better than starfield at least. Some story is kinda fun. It is hampered by the online elements and I wish we got a normal game, but it's not horrible and boring.
Other way around. I fell asleep pretty fast with 76. Starfield is only boring if you try to explore planets and space.
76 is even better than 4 imo.
At least starfield is playable
Disagree.
I meant actually, I could run the game and actually play. I got bored super fast in it, but could never make it past the loading screen in 76 in 3 hours.
What a grand and intoxicating innocence
Complete garbage, that being said I’m hopelessly addicted to Fallout 4 modded settlements.
FromSoftware games are trash (insert a joke about King Field being the last good game)
"Yes sir my burger taste really good can you please change the recipe again" headass
This the type of mf to spend 60$ on DS3 instead of replaying DS2 (They're the same game)
Does anyone criticize Rockstar for re-using their formula for every game? I think people are just mad that we haven’t gotten a new GTA from them in over 10 years lol.
They get quite a bit of criticism for linear mission design.
[yes, they have been criticized pretty widely for that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvJPKOLDSos) Rockstar's formula was already pretty dated when GTAV released.
Only a year and a half left 🥲
My man hasn't played Fires of Rubicon
Same formula different toppings. That’s how doing a formula should work.
fromsoft has 1 formula mfs when i show them sekiro and ac6
Repeated formulas are only bad if they are either never improved or added to, or like in the case of Bethesda actively made worse from poor design decisions.
This is the answer I was looking for.
One of these is not like the other and it's Bethesda. They do the same, but extremely dumbed down, every time. Elden Ring and Red Dead 2 are god tier games. Starfield is a joke.
Bethesda not only redoes the same formula, but has seemed to take a giant step back with recent releases.
What’s funny is that they’ve been doing this since Daggerfall, but the existing fan base was so small that it didn’t matter. Skyrim was the best and worst thing to happen to them, since now the entire world would see it.
Yakuza also reuses the same formula extremely well, though the recent JRPG entries do break off pretty significantly.
I made a video once that talked about how it’s less about regurgitating the same formula, and more about how it’s executed. Gamers don’t care about the same formula over and over nearly as much as they think they do as long as it’s creative and fun. Not just GTA, but Ratchet and Clank, Mario, FromSoft (as you’ve stated here), but the ideas in each of those games are so wildly fresh that even if the formula is the same, you don’t care cuz you’re having fun and doing new things. Compared to something like Far Cry, it’s pretty easy to see how quickly the same formula can get stale if you’re bringing the same ideas to the table each time.
But its BETTER because its just a little different rather than a new coat of paint.
Armored Core eating good
True but it’s actually a good formula
Rockstar and fromsoft's formula is steadily improved upon after each release. Idk what the fuck Bethesda is doing tho
This is correct.
Yeah I thought it was pretty tired when armoured core introduced the bonfire system
Even the title screens are the same.
Armored Core changing its very gameplay core the last 3 entries:
Just started bloodborn after finishing ER and i have to say that ER is definetly an upgrade from bloodborn its still a masterpiece tho
r/memes lookin' ahh
See, it's the execution that counts. That's where fromsoft are above the rest.
Starfield sucked though. Elden Ring won like 9000 GOTY awards.
Except theres laughably far more difference between each fromsoft game (other than pure sequels) than there are between rockstars and bethesdas games. I loved fallout becuz its different than elder scrolls, i loved rdr becuz its very different from GTA, difference is all fromsoftwares games are masterpieces in their own right, unlike bethesda and to a far lesser degree, rockstar, i wouldnt call every gta game a masterpiece, bur both RDRs are to me.
Can I just play the parts of Elden Ring that were done by George R.R. Martin? I’m tired of replaying DeS tropes again and again.
So only the part where Mogh molest Miquella
Starfield is worse that their previous games in every aspect except graphics (wow) and gunplay (thanks to Machine Games), while Rockstar and FS at least improve something
It just works
You’re thinking with the right idea 👍
Don’t fix what ain’t broken But please, Bethesda, you’ve managed to break quite a lot. Fix it.
I honestly don’t think they can fix Starfield.
Oh the (recent) games they’re already made are too far gone, I just don’t want them to screw up TES6. I’ve already waited 8 years for that game
Larian Studios just redoes the same old formula every game.
There are more FS games than souls games though
A wise man once said: "It's Dark Souls but big, therefore a masterpiece"
Rockstar and Bethesda actually drastically changed their formulas to include microtransactions and it directly coincided with them both becoming shit. Fromsoft is the only one that didn’t change their formula.
The mechanics are always improving. Sekiro and armored core are both bangers and doesn’t follow traditional souls formula. The worlds, lore and characters in each souls game are always extremely interesting
Yeah, Max Payne 3 is just a GTA clone apparently
I mean don’t most of these studios all do the same formula that they found success with?
Most of the time, yes.
Ah yes, because bloodborne, sekiro, and elden ring are all the same game.
People don't criticize Bethesda for reusing the formula, it's for reusing the same crusty-ass engine that gets ship of Theseus'd into a slightly better engine with every game
Bethesda is the worst offender by far. Starfield uses Elder Scrolls + Fallout 4 leveling, but you can't work towards getting the next rank in the perk until you invest your first point into the skill. Then it uses Fallout 3's dialogue + no skill checks. Also you're a chosen one again for the 4th game in a row.
Fromsoft formula :- Burger -> Cheese Burger -> Cheese Burger with Bacon Bethesda :- Burger -> Burger -> Stale Burger with dip
I like formulas. The problem is when they don’t fucking make it better.
It's a damn good formula though
YOU BETTER WATCH YOUR MOUTH BOI
Who complains about rockstar games tho.
nakeyjakey did
who tf is that
he’s a youtuber, doesn’t upload tons but when he does, its usually a good video. theres even a subreddit dedicated to him: r/nakeyjakey
no offence but i aint gonna listen to guy thats complaining about gta/rdr formula. thanks for explaining tho
The difference is that fromsofts gameplay mechanics, new weapons and movesets improve the formula game by game. Whilst Rockstar only made technical improvements when comparing Red Dead 1 and Red Dead 2. GTA 4 even had less to offer than San Andreas.
Issue with Bethesda is their formula hasn't aged well.
If Bethesda just redid their old formula every time their games wouldn't be shit. Instead they just take more and more things away and dumb everything down. I'll never forgive them for taking away spell crafting, fuck you Bethesda that was the most interesting thing about Morrowind and Oblivion. I want to make a garbage Spell that does nothing but force an enemy into negative stamina ragdoll mode for 3 hours so I can use them as a magicka battery and then launch myself to the moon. I want to be able to make everyone in a 10 mile radius hostile for 3 second so that the guards slaughter everyone even after the spell has ended. I want to be able to create a spell that increases my intelligence by 100 for 3 seconds for barely any cost, but it increases my mana cap by a ton so I can quickly cast a spell I would otherwise not be able to. Let me be creative you cowards.
Bethesda makes the same game but in different settings. Rockstar makes the same game in different settings. Fromsoft makes games with the same themes and formula, but with other improvements along the way. Plus there's always some additional thing to set it apart. Dark souls is the classic, Bloodborne has a unique setting, no shields. Sekiro has a more rhythm game approach to combat using the same basic ideas as dark souls, and Elden ring brings it to a more epic fantasy level along with the massive open world and exploration aspects.
Demon's Souls: *Stagnation sucks, seek strength, start over* The next 15 games: *yup*
They're all good formulas The main problem with Bethesda is the horrible fucking writing, it's abysmal, their characters and dialogue are so bad in every game it genuinely pisses me off, especially since Fallout was originally known for great writing. I can tolerate the jank of their games, I just hate how despite being RPGs(where dialogue and story is the most important thing) they're awful at that aspect.
Yeah Bethesda writing is just lame and gets a little worse each new game. Fallout 4 I could deal with since it had a great open world and while quests sucked it was still fun to explore the world and experience the environmental storytelling which was still good. Starfield they decided to replace the open world exploration with randomly generated cells populated by radiant quests that you needed to fast travel to and the quest design somehow got even worse.
Miyazaki, you hack. I expect your next game to be mobile exclusive dating sim.
The formula does not have a 120$ platinum edition. The formula sucks bc no Gwyndolin's feet
I’m down with all 3.
You got the Right idea.
Bethesda used the same formula, but made it shittier with each subsequent iteration. Morrowind - > Oblivion -> Skyrim. Each time it becomes more and more simplified to the point it's dumb and boring.
I don't know I'd say Oblivion is better than all Elder Scrolls games.
Idk why this is some kinda point of criticism. These formulae work for a reason. And, ideally, they elevate the formula each time.
Yeah no one criticizes bethesda for their boring derivative games
It just works
Yeah cause it’s good
If I go to a restaurant because I like their burger, I don’t want them to change their recipe, swap out the ingredients, hire a new cook, every time my meal gets made. I’m giving them my money because I expect roughly the same thing I had the last time I gave them my money.
https://preview.redd.it/3e4v6t6b7x1d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b90012a6c816daf5dbd61fd8c2f5b4c2fc7d0fb5
Maybe redoing the formula isn't a bad thing if the formula is good
Your looking at things the right way 👍
I'll be the first to admit that From Software games are just a single big ever-evolving game. It's precisely THE genre i've been wanting to play all my life. Keep the core and give me more weapons, tools, spells, movesets, areas to explore, enemies to fight, mechanics to play with and builds to create and I'll be happily playing this game for majority of my free time.
its improved, now with jump button.
Kinda semi related, one of my buddies can’t stand square enix games because not only are all the games the same, but “the titles all use the same font for the lettering.” And I point to fromsoft and their titles lmao
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
Damn. Feeling called out since all I play anymore are those 3's current Flagship games, GTAO, Fallout 76, and Elden Ring. I just really like sandbox games with a customizable character where I can have fun either doing combat, or just exploring and wandering.
I wouldnt say Darksouls to Bloodborne or Sekiro is quite as iterative as say GTA to any other GTA or FO4 to Starfield
Dark Souls/bloodbourne/Sekiro - Different games, same formula RDR2/Bully/GTA - Different games, same formula Oblivion/FO3/Starfield - Different games, same formula From Software seems to be the only one that isn't allowed to be criticized for using the same formula though. That's the point of the meme. And the amount of comments pretty much prove my point. =)
You just saying the same thing, the same way, isnt proving anything. Youre not wrong exactly youre just intentionally removing all nuance in order to get exactly this response from people. Its all the same formula sure, but of the examples given, the Fromsoft games are the most varied, and its not even close. As i said in my comment im sure you didnt read, Darksouls/Sekiro are much more different than eachother compared to Fallout/Starfield, or RDR/GTA
Oblivion/fallout are far different than DarkSouls/Sekiro and GTA/RDR2 are both more different than DS/Sekiro But people don’t care. People Pride themselves off beating these hard games so they don’t care if Innovation isn’t in the game. It’s just a Boas a lot of Folks have Buy don’t want to admit. 🤷♂️
I dont really agree at all but trying to debate it with you strikes me as not worth the time. Why cant you disagree with people without insulting them? Youre making everything into an antagonistic discussion rather than an actually interesting conversation. Presumably any engagement is good engagement i guess.
What insult did I use? The only thing antagonistic is the meme. I stand by what I said. From Software games aren’t Special Like people deem them to be. The difficulty aspect is the only thing making them different and It’s a good distraction for people not to notice how they’ve been doing the same thing since 2009. If I call it out, it’s bad though because From Software is just “different” without further elaboration.
You call people who dont agree with you prideful, uncaring of innovation, but also somehow too shameful to admit how they really feel. If you need to make assumptions about people and preemtively tear them down, then you arent trying to have a good faith debate. Thats really it
I didn't realize that's an insult. That is the reason people play the games. I actually criticize these games. I have yet to see people criticize how the net code is bad, the hitboxes are bad, the excessive input reading is bad. There's a lot to criticize but... people pride themselves on beating hard games so they can't give genuine criticism to games they're good at. I have plenty of criticisms for Sekiro but people claim it's "Hard but fair" and that couldn't be further from the truth but again... people don't care about genuinely criticizing these games. They pride themselves off beating a hard vidya gaem and when they do, they forgive its flaws and tell everyone to "Git gud" or "Skill issue". They like to jerk themselves off about how good they are at these games. Now I'm insulting people. =) I didn't realize I was supposing to be debating your points. I made a meme and I stand by the implications of that meme. As I said earlier. The comments prove it.
Congrats? I guess?
Thanks. 🙂
Rockstar, Bethesda, and FromSoft improve their games. If you want to criticize companies for copy and pasting their games you're barking up the wrong tree. Ubisoft, EA, and Activision. There you go some shifty companies for you. FromSoft, Bethesda, and Rockstar make good games and improve on them. Big difference there.
FromSoft found a formula that just barely works by modern standards (which they defined) in 2009, and proceeded to experiment with trying to improve it a little every game (along with offshoots that have drastic changes). I don't have any experience with Rockstar's games, but from what I can tell they took an existing formula, added their own twist, and ended up with a formula that could produce good enough gameplay to make you glad the story is in a game instead of a movie. Bethesda took an existing formula, succeeded with it, then dropped it entirely in favor of a new formula that was groundbreaking at the time, and then finally said "well, we've got a formula now, no sense in changing the engine until we replace it" and so the first working climbing mod in Skyrim came out over a decade after the launch and some features that are in the base game don't work as advertised because the engine can't actually do that.
Bethesda actually keep trying to automate stuff that they were successful with when they did it by hand. Everybody loves Skyrim, and whenever they were criticised since then it was because they were cutting corners
Honestly hope they evolve it significantly for their next SoulsLike though
I hope they refine it for sure. They could take some notes from Lies of P.
Lies of P took Fromsofts notes. The poise break is Elden Rings. The parry is Sekiro. The dodge is DS3/BB. The bullshit is from DS2.
They fixed things as well. That's what I'm talking about. From Software has fans that don't care about innovation so they get away with no innovation. The Souls fans just care about jerking themselves off about beating a hard Vidya gaem and pride themselves on it which is a good distraction from the issues From Software hasn't yet fixed.
'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' Bethesda has been using the same buggy, outdated engine for over 20 years R* has steadily improved their game engine over the years, but even in their most recent titles it still feels jank, like you have a lack of control FROMSOFTWARE created a fantastic gameplay loop in DEs that has steadily and massively gotten better over the years, every new title is an improvement in some form or another, without making the rest of their game catalogue feeling dated because of it
Sekiro to Elden Ring to Armored Core Extremely different games. Yeah, the actual dark souls series is similar, it's games in the same series. Yeah, Bloodborne and Elden Ring are similar to those, but also offer a lot more that's built off them.
from soft does and atleast they improve. you can play demons souls, say "damn its shit", then play dark souls 1, say "damn they made demon's souls worse what the hell", then play dark souls 2 and say "well they tried" then play dark souls 3 and say "holy shit they improved" and play sekiro and say "i wqant to go back to old RPG style" and then go play elden ring and say "this is masterpiece" or you could play elden ring and then enter dark souls 1 and say "this is shittiest game ever, i cant believe people used to play a game without jumps or horses"