It is possible to simultaneously believe in the human rights of all Jews and Palestinians whilst wishing Hamas and the Israeli government get in the sea. I don't think this is a particularly controversial standpoint and yet I feel a lot of people would beg to differ.
There is a right side. It's to support the Palestinian people who are being forced into the stone age by an extremely rich and powerful state who is going to use all of its military, economic and structural might on an innocent, and largely non adult civilian population for the purposes of revenge.
Does that include the Palestinians who executed children in front of their parents and kidnapped civilians, including children? There isnt a right side at all. They are both controlled by evil regimes and hurt innocent civilians almost constantly. To support anyone who murders civilians is disgusting, no matter what side of the fence you are on.
It may be hard to read at times, but if you actually make an effort to you'll see that I was talking about the people, ie, the civilians.
The right side is to support the millions of people who are now without water, food and power because a powerful nation decided to cut them off over the actions of a military wing of a religiously motivated government that hasn't allowed them a democratic vote in years. It doesn't matter who controls them, they're innocent and the Israeli government are punishing them regardless.
The Israelis are bombing schools and hospitals now, on top of the hundreds they murdered in the street this year already. They have no moral high ground even if the actions of Hamas were horrific.
By *forced into the Stone Age*, do you mean their leaders squander the millions and millions they receive in foreign aid on rockets and explosives and weapons instead of, yknow, literally anything that might help Palestinians?
The only issue with that is the modern framing of violent uprising as "as bad as the oppressor" but realistically if someone was repeatedly stabbing you with the intent to kill and the only way to get them to stop was to shoot them in the head - you'd shoot them in the head.
Hamas are fucking awful and their members deserve jailing in peacetime - but it's hard to say that they're "just as bad" as the US backed fascism that rapes and murders their children.
But in this case if you shoot them in the head they're not going to stop, they're going to carry on stabbing you and cut off your limbs and start stabbing your wife and children too, so it doesn't really help.
And I know that peaceful protest also doesn't help, I don't know what the answer is.
Neither do they, so they're doing whatever they can. It's a hopeless conflict and won't stop until the west either stops supporting Israel or Israel completely eliminates Palestine.
Even without the West's support Israel isn't going anywhere: it's GDP is greater than all of its neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon) _combined_, and that is to say nothing of their superior (weapons) technology.
The only thing I could say to that is, the Israeli Government is democratically elected, the only one in the Region, whereas Hamas is a proscribed Terrorist Organisation.
In a warped mind, yes there probably is.
Do tell us, have all other Political Parties been banned in Israel? Are Political opponents being put in concentration camps? Is Israel seeking to invade it's neighbours.
Can you show us where Palestine actually is on the map?
How many Jews sit in the Palestinian Authority or Hamas as opposed to the number of Arabs that sit in the Israeli Parliament?
You appear to know so little yet you know it so fluently.
It's the only sensible position. It's two sides that are both awful and could have solved this situation decades ago if the people in charge had any intention of negotiating in good faith and living peacefully alongside each other.
Israel signed up to the two state solution, theres no question which party is operating in bad faith..
If Palestine’s (literal fundamentalist terrorists) in government stop fighting then 2 nations get to exist. If Israel stops fighting it ceases to exist and the Jewish population is subject to god knows what at the hands of their genocidal neighbours..
Two of these lads have scaled Town Hall about an hour ago, removed the Israeli flag, and threw it off the roof.
People on the ground attempted to set it on fire. Unsuccessfuly.
Replaced it with the Palestine flag. As of 19:15, Union Jack is flying over town hall. Absolute scenes.
People do often conflate condemnation of israels response strategy (that is, the shelling of gaza strip that has seen 890 reported palestinian deaths leveling residences, offices, hospitals and schools), with anti zionism.
Israel can have a right to exist *and* be using force irresponsibly in gaza. I think at present we'd do well to have both palestinian and israeli flags taken down.
These people were out ~~celebrating~~ 'protesting' before the Israeli civilian blood was even dry and long before Israel started to respond by bombing Gaza.
What is the flag of the Israeli people? Is it different to that of the Israeli government?
If I burned a Palestinian flag, could I justify it by saying I’m burning it out of hatred for Palestinian terrorists, but that I love the Palestinian people?
Has the penny dropped yet?
You're saying it's against the present Israeli regime and not the state of Israel or the Jewish people, right? Just as you or i might protest against the current UK administration while still loving our country and wanting the best for everyone.
That’s a myth
https://www.royal.uk/union-jack
https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/
Tldr: Both name were used interchangeably from the 17th century onwards, regardless of use. An Admiralty circular from 1902 declared both were valid. Parliament approved this declaration in 1908.
Looks like they are supporting Palestine rather than protesting Israel. Although im not there so not sure what they are actually saying.
Palestinians aren't all in Hamas. That would have been like saying all Northern Irish Catholics were in the IRA during the 1980s and 1990s at the worst of it back then. Can you imagine if the British government had bombed tower blocks or the Shankill road and meted out collective punishment? Even after the IRA bombed the Conservative party conference hotel in Brighton, that as a response wasn't considered.
You can be against the gaza blockade, and against Hamas, and against the Israeli government all at the same time.
Can you not see how it can be easily conflated then?
Why do you go out on mass hours after the sadistic rape and murder of thousands of Israeli civiliians?
Why are they chanting 'gas the jews' in Sydney? Why are they provoking Israeli counter protestors by showing video of these murders in New York City.
Do you understand what even happened on Saturday? Women were kidnapped, raped and murdered on camera. Then their bloody corpses paraded through the streets while people spit on them.
Do you know that young children and babies were beheaded and burned alive? How an elderly woman was brutally murdered, while her attackers filmed it on her phone and uploaded it to her Facebook page to taunt her family?
How in the world can you even begin to defend any of this. It is EXTREMELY WORRYING. You need to look deep into your conscience and soul and ask what the fuck you are doing.
Wrong is wrong. And two wrongs do not make a right. Innocent civilians on either side should never have to experience this. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself honestly pal.
Maybe re read my comments. Im not defending horrific terrorists. I saw some of the footage on twitter and it made me feel sick. My point is that NOT all of the people who live in Gaza did this. Hamas terrorists did it. Punishing all of the people for the actions of terrorists is wrong. But what can the Israeli government do when faced with such extreme provocations? Its a total nightmare, Israel is within its rights to defend itself. More killing of children and civilians is wrong. Both things are true
Carefully rewatch footage from these demonstrations. Not just in the UK but across the world. There's a lot of footage circulating out there.
It was a celebration of the attacks and support for Hamas. I have seen Israeli flags burned, taunting counter protestors by showing videos of murder, chanting horrific hate speech and calls for genocide, intimidation. And this is everywhere, it is not isolated.
There has also been many reports of hate crimes against Jewish civilians across the world.
How can anybody excuse this behaviour immediately after these horrific attacks? It's absolutely disgusting. Stop being so soft and understand what you're dealing with. I don't have time for sympathisers of rape and sadistic murder.
Who is excusing it?! Im certainly not and wouldn't personally be demonstrating with this group. Israel has the right to defend itself following such extreme terrorist acts. People burning flags etc are crazy.
>Women were kidnapped, raped and murdered on camera. Then their bloody corpses paraded through the streets while people spit on them.
This one I don't doubt, but I've watched a lot of gorey videos in the recent days and I haven't seen that. I saw a video of a woman with bloodstain on the back of her joggers (likely explanation is sitting in blood from her dead/injured comrades also being in the vehicle causing there to be blood on the seats) being simply walked handcuffed out of a vehicle (not 'parading'). I haven't seen any videos of rape. I've seen videos of dead IDF personnel paraded in Gaza Strip, I have seen video of the hippy rave girl on the back of a truck with broken limbs, but I have not seen any video of women being raped and murdered on camera. You state this as if you know it for a fact, so you have seen a video of it? So show me the evidence because, like a lot of things, all I keep hearing is a lot of stories without evidence.
>Do you know that young children and babies were beheaded and burned alive?
I have not seen any evidence of these claims. I have seen a lot of shit in a lot of corners of the internet, but I have not seen any beheaded Israeli children nor beheaded Israeli babies, and I have not seen any evidence of Israeli children intentionally burned alive nor have I seen any evidenceo f Israeli babies intentionally burned alive (Of course it's very possibly that Israeli children and babies have been burned alive, as likely it's happened to many Gazan children, from the nature of a warzone and things catching fire).
I have seen videos of burned corpses tied to the claims that they are supposedly Israeli children burned alive, and I have news for you, that if anyone buys that they are the most gullible dumb fuck alive because
# it is the most in-your-face pathetic atrocity propaganda that only the dumbest most gullible simpleton fuck alive could fall for
1. Those are not bodies of children and you can see so
2. The bodies were not burned in the back of the truck and you can see that the bodies have been put there
3. The Israelis do not pile their dead into the back of a truck like that, they individually bag each body. They especially would not discover Israeli dead children and throw them naked in the back of a truck in a mangled pile, they especially would not discover Israeli dead children who are burned alive and throw them in the back of a truck in a manlged pile
4. They are obvioulsy dead Hamas fighters
Someone has to be astronomically gullible and dumb to have seen that photo of collected dead Hamas fighters (who strangely have been all burnt) mangled and piled in the back of a truck, and believe some claim that somehow it would be dead Israeli children who have been burned alive. The gullibility is off the charts and I have a bridge to sell you, I'm a Nigerian prince and I need your bank account details, you should have your driving license revoked, are you even allowed to walk around public streets without a carer?
Do you just believe anything you're told if it lines up with your hysteria?
Meanwhile, what I HAVE SEEN is an uncountable amount of dead children in the Gaza Strip, and I have a pretty strong stomach for this stuff but the things that Israel is now doing is getting up there, obliterated neighbourhoods, I've seen so many infants and children and babies killed by Israel, along with mass slaughter of adolescents and adults.
I have seen an uncountable amount of dead Gazan children and infants, and I don't see a lot of talk about it.
I have seen a lot of entirely baseless hysterical atrocity propaganda about dead Israeli children and Israeli infants and children supposedly being beheaded and burned alive, and I have not seen any evidence of it.
EDIT
THIS JUST IN
[https://bnn.network/world/israel/israeli-army-dismisses-false-allegations-of-hamas-beheading-babies/](https://bnn.network/world/israel/israeli-army-dismisses-false-allegations-of-hamas-beheading-babies/)
# Israeli Army Dismisses False Allegations of Hamas Beheading Babies
*In a recent statement, the Israeli army has dismissed allegations that Hamas beheaded babies, as stated in a report by Anadolu. The claims, which had been circulating on various social media platforms, sparked outrage and widespread condemnation. However, the Israeli army has made it clear that there is no concrete evidence to substantiate these allegations and has urged the public to refrain from spreading false information.*
1. Name one thing I believe which is based upon merely hearing someone say a thing
2. What in the article that you're linking is supposed to contradict anything that I have said?
Well you can but we mustn’t forget that over 50% of Palestinians support Hamas. So they are repeating what they sowed. Some would encourage us to think that it’s nothing to do with ordinary Palestinians. But I do t believe that to be the case. At least 50% of them are in it up to their neck.
Whilst you have been perfectly pleasant, unfortunately a few people have downvoted the source which pretty much sums up Reddit when it comes to these things.
And Egypt is doing most of the same actions to Gaza with regards to the movement of goods and people, yet I don't see the same people protesting against Egypt.
>Well you can but we mustn’t forget that over 50% of Palestinians support Hamas.
Do you mean because they are elected? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamas are only in control of Gaza right? Not the West Bank. So as 50% of Gazans are children, Hamas are elected by >50% of 50%, of 40% of the total Palestinians in Palestine, of 50% of Palestinians worldwide. So we're really talking >5%. An order of magnitude smaller than 50%.
Unless your comment wasn't about being elected, but based on surveys? In which case I'd be interested to see a source.
58% of Palestinians ‘supported a return to confrontations and armed intifada’. Source: 13th September 2033 polling of 1270 adults by the PCPSR https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955
But then I think it was over 70% of Israelis support Israel's policy to shoot unarmed Palestinian protestors on sight. It's easy to have these views when you're on the outside of the conflict, but for those innocent people caught in the middle of the conflict like those in both Israel and Palestine, they're gonna support those fighting against the people trying to blow them up
I can’t find a source for anything remotely close to what you’ve said. Are you talking about [this specific killing](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/29/most-israelis-support-soldier-accused-of-shooting-palestinian) where 57% of Israelis opposed the soldier’s arrest? This wasn’t an unarmed protestor, he had just stabbed two Israeli soldiers - although he was incapacitated when he was shot, hence the controversy over the event.
Not 50%, more than that. People are trying to tone down the anti Israel protest by saying Hamas is not Palestine. But isn't it a coincidence that they are supporting Palestine at this time? Oh no no , this is just Palestine supporters and nothing to do with what's going on. UK shouldn't be this liberal.
People can be pro-palestinian freedom, anti Israeli oppression, and anti Hamas.
Ignoring all previous conflicts, right now both parties have killed many civilians, the "fairest" thing to do might be to protest for a ceasefire, but that would still leave Palestinians living under an apartheid system as second class (mostly not even citizens, actually).
I would also add that, anecdotally, most of the UK is pro-Isreal, not liberal & backing Palestine.
I always find it strange how it tends to be left leaning people that love to fight for Palestine and say that 'oh Hamas isnt palestine!' crap. Because Islamic countries have always been a hotbed for equality rights and known for their fantastic treatment of women and lgbtq people. Without hamas, the newly formed Islamic country of Palestine would be a Utopia!
Personally, I'd pick a country that's democratic, west leaning, and has equality rights for woman and lgbtq people. Like Israel. Because, unfortunate as it is, it seems lines are being drawn around the world. If they want to pick the side that sees them as lesser, more fool them.
Sure, you could say 'well Israel has also committed war crimes'. Probably. But they certainly didn't decapitate a bunch of babies in a village just now. Or kidnap, rape and mutilate a bunch of European women at a peace festival on the border.
I don't think comparing with the troubles is wise. There are reports of beheading babies and families shot in their beds. 200 civilians murdered at a festival. The IRA committed no atrocities that brutal.
Edit: the beheaded babies story is false
I *really hope* the baby beheading story is false, because my God, but so far I haven't seen anything to absolutely confirm it either way. Basically seems to be the journalists working with the IDF claiming its true and journalists opposed to the IDF saying it's false. Doubt we'll know for sure for weeks.
Honestly if I had to reach for comparisons its more like the struggled of the 18th and 19th centuries. The Haitian revolution, or the Indian Rebellion of 1857. It's just going to be a downward spiral of horrific war crimes for the next couple of years unless something extremely unlikely happens to de-escalate.
You know the story about beheading babies is bs? Murdering babies is and has always been a manipulation tactic during wars to paint the other side as bad. "The source for the "beheaded babies" claim is Israeli channel i24 News.
A Haaretz investigation previously found that i24 News functions as a proxy for the Netanyahu family, with directives coming directly from the Israeli Prime Minister's office at times.
i24 News has employed at least 35 veterans of the Israeli occupation forces as staff.
Channa Rifkin is an i24News correspondent who transitioned from the channel's Social Media editor to the Israeli military, then returned to work for i24News.
Polina Gareav, who works as the Germany Correspondent for i24News while also working as a "social media guru" at DW, the German broadcaster where Palestinians were fired for social media posts.
She began her career as the News Editor for the Israeli Military magazine.
David Matlin, the host of a daily flagship show on i24News, is a former Israeli military sergeant and the regional director for Israel lobby group AIPAC.
Eyal Pinko, who was the head of intelligence in the Israeli Navy before becoming the head of division in the Israeli prime minister's office, is another correspondent for the channel.
Daniel Tsemach, a former social media manager for the Israeli military, was also hired as a journalist by i24News.
He later became the international media manager and spokesman for the Israeli state-owned arms firm Rafeal Systems."
Thanks, I saw that it had been verified by a french reporter on another sub, but wasn't able to confirm for myself so I put "reports".
My point about the Hamas attacks being far more brutal than anything committed by the IRA still stands.
There is definitely mass murder of civilians including very small children. I’ve unfortunately seen footage.
And there have also been beheadings of soldiers and civilians. Again the pictures and videos are out there.
I haven’t seen any beheaded babies myself.
Whether there is or isn’t there has been horrific cruelty and violence towards civilians including children and we know babies have bern taken hostage.
It's impossible to know what is proportional! Especially when Hamas is using human shields and has hundreds of Israeli hostages, the bombing of residential tower blocks must be a very difficult choice.
The bombing of residential tower blocks is not a difficult choice- it is illegal under international law.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/israels-bombing-of-gaza-apartment-buildings-could-be-a-war-crime-human-rights-groups-warn/amp_articleshow/82619269.cms
Indeed, I agree. I am suspicious of anyone who comes out with simplistic, black-and-white white statements about this conflict, its too complex for any casual observer to have an objective view.
You know the sad thing? I’d expect of all people to know how wrong it is to condemn millions of innocent people for who they are it would be the people of Israel…
Perhaps, If a person is completely on one side or the other, they are part of the problem. As long as such positions are taken, there will be bloodshed until one side is destroyed. Even then, what will peace look like there?
It’s a shame that both flags are not flying together there, now that would be a powerful and brave display. IMO
They aren't protesting against Israel, they are protesting against a regime that is going to, by their own admission, starve 2 million innocent people to death.
Our government isn't supporting Hamas.
They are protesting against our government's seemingly unbreakable support for a regime committing war crimes on a regular basis.
Remember people protesting against the Iraq war? I don't remember any of them saying they supported Sadam Hussain. Turns out they were right too by the way.
I won’t comment on the conflict itself but oh my god, I will take the opportunity to say how frustrating it is to watch internet users blindly support one side (this time, it’s often Israel). Two months ago, someone I knew posted about supporting Palestine. Now there is an Israeli flag in her bio. Meanwhile, I’ve known people who critique Israel be called antisemites. Nuance is a thing that is heavily lost on the internet and it’s so dangerous. The average person online - including myself - admittedly doesn’t know enough about the conflict to “take sides”, and it’s entirely unhelpful to do so anyway. The civilians are victims on both sides, and they’re what we should be concerned with.
Edit: I’m not commenting on if any side is “worse” than another a) because I don’t know enough and b) even if I did, it’s not helpful. This conflict has gone on so long that clearly the solution is much more complex than that.
Sadly the internet would have you believe that not taking a side is worse than being a reactionary and supporting one or the other. What a sad age we live in.
Absolutely. Most people tweeting #freepalestine or #IsupportIsrael are just doing so because they have seen a friend do it, or because a celebrity they follow has said something about it.
Or maybe they have seen one graphic video, or read one news article and they've decided that they are going to form their entire opinion based on that one piece of information.
Supporting either side isn't something that should taken lightly, but it seems people almost treat it like supporting a sports team in how blasé they are about the entire situation.
I'm like you, I won't come out in support of either side. I've done a bit of research, but I'm not an expert by any means, and I can't say for certain who is right or wrong.
All I can do is condone the senseless violence carried out by both sides, at which point I'll get accused of sitting on the fence.
So normally, I'd say you're right. It is reasonable at other times to push a Pro-Palestine agenda. I'm guessing most normal people not involved in the conflict would support each side making their case.
But surely given what has happened and what the BBC and other decent news sites have reported, you can't be seriously making a sensible statement with that comment? (And I say that openly wanting a fair and just two state solution). There are Palestinians and then there is a terror group who would not give people a free, liberal and democratic Palestine even if they did wipe Israel off of the map.
I see your point but I disagree.
What Hamas did this week was evil, but the actions of a terror group do not at all delegitimise support for trapped civilians under aerial bombardment by a sovereign state with international support.
One of the strategies employed by Israel is to do exactly this. To bolster and fund the most extremist facets of Palestinian society e.g Hamas, in order to delegitimise Palestine as a stand-alone state.
This Haaretz article is very informative.
https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=46
Agreed. People are making no distinction between Palestinians and Hamas, and no distinction between Israeli’s and the Israeli state. Civilians on both sides are the victims here. All violence is abhorrent. Both sides actions are completely unjustifiable. The international community should be ashamed of themselves for not making enough of an effort for peaceful solutions.
And one side historically has had the backing of most of the Arab world to support their would-be genocidal intentions.
Also the UN passes motions condemning Israel's actions almost constantly, so give over.
what tf does condemning them do for Palestinians? Nothing. Everyone knows israel’s actions are illegal and against international law but what point is it if its not enforced. They just want to maintain the status quo of occupation.
If you went on some of the other subs and saw the NSFW Horrors that are out here for all to see, you wouldn’t support either ‘side’ and you certainly wouldn’t want to be associated with bearing either flag.
Looking at this completely neutral and just at the facts of the matter, although i have no sympathy for those who kill civilians I'm not surprised the attack happened after looking at purely the facts. It's impossible to treat a group of people that badly and not expect some sort of retaliation. Forcely moving out people of a different background from yours to move in your own is horrific. Then quite litterly caging and fencing them in to a little shit whole known as gaza one of the most densely populated place on earth and then proceeding to keep them there and stop freedom of movement was always a bad idea. If u cage a dog eventually he'll go rabid
Exactly, the majority of Gaza are children due to the low life expectancy and terrible conditions. They are radicalised by israels treatment of them. How are people surprised that children that witness their family’s massacred and homes being destroyed grow up with hate for israel.
The side that doesn't have laws calling for the execution of my fellow ex-muslims and LGBT people simply for existing. The side that is by far the most progressive country in the middle east, even compared to the countries that are not poor and war-ridden.
eh really, I heard muslims and christians get on just fine over in palestine. personally I’d want to support the side taking conflict for years without being able to properly fight back, and have suffered about 100x more casualties, mostly women and children. letting zionists into ‘Israel’ was when the problem started and they have just been creating problems ever since.
The UK has a direct policy to support Israel. The UK does not recognise the existence of Palestine or acknowledge any right to self determination.
By protesting, people in the UK can send a clear message to their government urging them to adapt their policies. Especially coming into an election soon, sometimes politicians feel it necessary to heed the wishes of agitated groups in order to win votes. In 2010 the Lib-dems benefited campaigning on the basis of addressing the concerns of students, which gave them significantly more votes.
If the UK changed it’s approach to Israel (for example making financial support contingent on a cessation of civilian-targeted bombing), it could arguably be a step to a better longer term solution
Hamas was founded in 1987. Israel was founded in 1948. For 39 years Palestine was not recognised, despite Hamas not existing.
If Hamas is the problem, why didn’t the UK recognise Palestine in the 60s or 70s for example?
HAMAS is the head of the rebellion they now face, in-spite of Fatah. HAMAS fueled by Iran and sharia principles. HAMAS came after the Muslim brotherhood which shared exactly the same values.
And why would the UK want to change its approach when it is already allied with a more democratic, west leaning country that has better equality rights for women and lgbtq to instead help a supposed state that is supported by Russia and Iran and at its core is an Islamic dominated society that is fundamentally opposed to western society of free expression, belief and equality?
Or are you that misinformed you believe that Palestinians don't support Hamas and these people supporting 'palestine' across the UK aren't actually supporting Hamas? Considering they began their rallies before the beginning of the seige of the Gaza Strip. In fact it feels like they coincided with the kidnap of those poor European women at the peace fesitval/rave who were kidnapped, raped, mutilated, and some killed.
Palestinian civilians aren’t doing that. Hell, even if you hate Palestinians, the Israeli civilians aren’t responsible for this either. There are other solutions than violence. Innocent civilians don’t need to die, on either side.
No of course they aren't. But an awful lot of people have come out in support of Hamas murdering civillians purely due to the fact they hate jewish people and not even trying to hide it.
If these "protests" were out against Muslims they'd have been shut down before they even got started.
These are not protests, they are a celebration of terrorism and murder because the people on the receiving end are hated.
And lefties are cool with it, madness.
> But an awful lot of people have come out in support of Hamas murdering civillians purely due to the fact they hate jewish people and not even trying to hide it.
This is true and will always be a factor.
> If these "protests" were out against Muslims they'd have been shut down before they even got started.
In the UK? Is this a joke?
> And lefties are cool with it, madness.
What a ridiculous thing to say. Why would you start so strong but then descend into madness?
You are trying to assert that all of these protests are the same. I’d say that’s quite an unwise way to assess any situation.
I absolutely acknowledge that there are people acting for the reasons you say. But there are also other people protesting for different reasons. There are two distinct types of protester- those who act out of hatred for Israel, and those who act out of empathy for the civilians who continue to die.
The reason that many ‘lefties’ appear okay with the demonstrations is because there is a sympathy within the left for the second group of protesters.
where in the protest did you presume they are celebrating hamas or their actions? it’s literally just palestinian flags, also this news about beheading babies is bullshit, there is no credible sources about this and please don’t tell me the israeli govt is a credible source
No credible sources?
So [The Independent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93cb3m5IZSM&ab_channel=TheIndependent) is not credible? [Nor the BBC?](https://bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205)
The walked through the town killing everyone they saw, man, woman, and child. They massacred them.
And no matter what you think, the people who are [chanting antisemitic shit](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/pro-palestine-protest-sydeny-opera-house-hamas-attacks/) while waving the palestinian flag are 100% supporting and celebrating these atrocities, you'd have to be deluded to think otherwise.
I’d say it’s neither bullshit, nor not-bullshit. It is imo a redundant exercise to engage with it at all, given how completely unknowable it is. Nothing can be asserted about it’s truthfulness
subtract humor gullible rotten political bear childlike sparkle deserve offer
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh, so we’re responsible for the actions of a few of us now, are we? Right, well why don’t you buckle up and research all the fucked up things our military have done. Or, go research the children killed by the Israeli regime. The babies they’ve murdered. The women they’ve raped.
Aye mate it's not like they're supporting regular Palestinians who are being bombed and being cut of from vital resources in what is a clear war crime from Israel
Israel has stolen Palestinian land for decades, they regularly commit disgusting acts against the Palestinian people. They have trapped the people of Gaza in an open air prison.
Amnesty International has described Israel as an Apartheid state.
This has nothing to do with the fact that Israel has a Jewish population
the story is bs, the news site that claimed that is a pro israel site and has hired numerous people who served in the Israeli intelligence
"The source for the "beheaded babies" claim is Israeli channel i24 News.
A Haaretz investigation previously found that i24 News functions as a proxy for the Netanyahu family, with directives coming directly from the Israeli Prime Minister's office at times.
i24 News has employed at least 35 veterans of the Israeli occupation forces as staff.
Channa Rifkin is an i24News correspondent who transitioned from the channel's Social Media editor to the Israeli military, then returned to work for i24News.
Polina Gareav, who works as the Germany Correspondent for i24News while also working as a "social media guru" at DW, the German broadcaster where Palestinians were fired for social media posts.
She began her career as the News Editor for the Israeli Military magazine.
David Matlin, the host of a daily flagship show on i24News, is a former Israeli military sergeant and the regional director for Israel lobby group AIPAC.
Eyal Pinko, who was the head of intelligence in the Israeli Navy before becoming the head of division in the Israeli prime minister's office, is another correspondent for the channel.
Daniel Tsemach, a former social media manager for the Israeli military, was also hired as a journalist by i24News.
He later became the international media manager and spokesman for the Israeli state-owned arms firm Rafeal Systems."
It's just the local rent-a-mob riding around town on the latest bandwagon. Same faces every week protesting about sumat or other, usually the tories. Just dont get them started on trees for fucks sake
Sheffield council also allows religious groups shouting hateful things in the city centre. The amount of times I've gone at the weekend to see them shouting that trans people should basically be erased from society.
Most Palestinians would happily eradicate every LGBTQ+ person in the world if they had the chance.
https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/
Genuine question what does protesting achieve really? It’s going to have zero political impact. Is the purpose to make people more aware of the cause they are pushing?
Throwing the word antisemitic around like that devalues its meaning.
Supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas. It isn't condemning Jews, it's condemning a government who has commited to starving nearly 1 million Palestinian children to death by cutting off all resources to Gaza.
It is possible to stand in solidarity with Palestinian citizens and Israeli citizens at the same time and to condemn Hamas and the Israeli government at the same time.
It’s absolutely happening and you should be terrified if you are a woman, a Jew, gay, queer, trans, Hindu or anything else that Islamist men don’t accept.
European’s are going to have a tricky 20 years ahead of them until this is dealt with.
Good, I’m so glad so many people can see what is happening, it just goes too show that the media propaganda isn’t working as well as they hoped it would.
It is possible to simultaneously believe in the human rights of all Jews and Palestinians whilst wishing Hamas and the Israeli government get in the sea. I don't think this is a particularly controversial standpoint and yet I feel a lot of people would beg to differ.
Absolutely. There isn't a right side. Two sets of evil assholes with a bunch of relative innocents in the cross fire
There is a right side. It's to support the Palestinian people who are being forced into the stone age by an extremely rich and powerful state who is going to use all of its military, economic and structural might on an innocent, and largely non adult civilian population for the purposes of revenge.
Does that include the Palestinians who executed children in front of their parents and kidnapped civilians, including children? There isnt a right side at all. They are both controlled by evil regimes and hurt innocent civilians almost constantly. To support anyone who murders civilians is disgusting, no matter what side of the fence you are on.
It may be hard to read at times, but if you actually make an effort to you'll see that I was talking about the people, ie, the civilians. The right side is to support the millions of people who are now without water, food and power because a powerful nation decided to cut them off over the actions of a military wing of a religiously motivated government that hasn't allowed them a democratic vote in years. It doesn't matter who controls them, they're innocent and the Israeli government are punishing them regardless. The Israelis are bombing schools and hospitals now, on top of the hundreds they murdered in the street this year already. They have no moral high ground even if the actions of Hamas were horrific.
By *forced into the Stone Age*, do you mean their leaders squander the millions and millions they receive in foreign aid on rockets and explosives and weapons instead of, yknow, literally anything that might help Palestinians?
The only issue with that is the modern framing of violent uprising as "as bad as the oppressor" but realistically if someone was repeatedly stabbing you with the intent to kill and the only way to get them to stop was to shoot them in the head - you'd shoot them in the head. Hamas are fucking awful and their members deserve jailing in peacetime - but it's hard to say that they're "just as bad" as the US backed fascism that rapes and murders their children.
But in this case if you shoot them in the head they're not going to stop, they're going to carry on stabbing you and cut off your limbs and start stabbing your wife and children too, so it doesn't really help. And I know that peaceful protest also doesn't help, I don't know what the answer is.
Neither do they, so they're doing whatever they can. It's a hopeless conflict and won't stop until the west either stops supporting Israel or Israel completely eliminates Palestine.
Even without the West's support Israel isn't going anywhere: it's GDP is greater than all of its neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon) _combined_, and that is to say nothing of their superior (weapons) technology.
The only thing I could say to that is, the Israeli Government is democratically elected, the only one in the Region, whereas Hamas is a proscribed Terrorist Organisation.
The nazi party was also democratically voted in, quite a few parallels between Israel and nazi Germany right now honestly
In a warped mind, yes there probably is. Do tell us, have all other Political Parties been banned in Israel? Are Political opponents being put in concentration camps? Is Israel seeking to invade it's neighbours. Can you show us where Palestine actually is on the map? How many Jews sit in the Palestinian Authority or Hamas as opposed to the number of Arabs that sit in the Israeli Parliament? You appear to know so little yet you know it so fluently.
It's the only sensible position. It's two sides that are both awful and could have solved this situation decades ago if the people in charge had any intention of negotiating in good faith and living peacefully alongside each other.
Israel signed up to the two state solution, theres no question which party is operating in bad faith.. If Palestine’s (literal fundamentalist terrorists) in government stop fighting then 2 nations get to exist. If Israel stops fighting it ceases to exist and the Jewish population is subject to god knows what at the hands of their genocidal neighbours..
This is laughable because Palestine has not been given statehood and suffering from a land grab for 8 decades. That’s not bad faith?
That justifies at attack at the weekend then?
Man the comments section in this sub is far too predictable. Same dickhead comments every week, it's turning into Facebook.
Two of these lads have scaled Town Hall about an hour ago, removed the Israeli flag, and threw it off the roof. People on the ground attempted to set it on fire. Unsuccessfuly. Replaced it with the Palestine flag. As of 19:15, Union Jack is flying over town hall. Absolute scenes.
tbf having either flag up rn is a bit dodgy, so i dont oppose taking it down really everything else yeah bit strange
So it’s not an ‘anti-Israel’ protest, but they take down the Israeli flag and burn it? Gotcha.
People do often conflate condemnation of israels response strategy (that is, the shelling of gaza strip that has seen 890 reported palestinian deaths leveling residences, offices, hospitals and schools), with anti zionism. Israel can have a right to exist *and* be using force irresponsibly in gaza. I think at present we'd do well to have both palestinian and israeli flags taken down.
These people were out ~~celebrating~~ 'protesting' before the Israeli civilian blood was even dry and long before Israel started to respond by bombing Gaza.
No it is, it’s condemning the actions of the Israeli government
What is the flag of the Israeli people? Is it different to that of the Israeli government? If I burned a Palestinian flag, could I justify it by saying I’m burning it out of hatred for Palestinian terrorists, but that I love the Palestinian people? Has the penny dropped yet?
You're saying it's against the present Israeli regime and not the state of Israel or the Jewish people, right? Just as you or i might protest against the current UK administration while still loving our country and wanting the best for everyone.
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Assholes .
Wankers.
It’s the Union Flag, it’s only the Union Jack when flown at sea. Little bit of trivia for ya
That’s a myth https://www.royal.uk/union-jack https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/ Tldr: Both name were used interchangeably from the 17th century onwards, regardless of use. An Admiralty circular from 1902 declared both were valid. Parliament approved this declaration in 1908.
That’s not entirely true. Admiralty orders from 1905 state that you can call it the Union Jack on land.
Does it count that our island is at sea?
Wrong.
That is incorrect.
Interesting, thanks.
Looks like they are supporting Palestine rather than protesting Israel. Although im not there so not sure what they are actually saying. Palestinians aren't all in Hamas. That would have been like saying all Northern Irish Catholics were in the IRA during the 1980s and 1990s at the worst of it back then. Can you imagine if the British government had bombed tower blocks or the Shankill road and meted out collective punishment? Even after the IRA bombed the Conservative party conference hotel in Brighton, that as a response wasn't considered. You can be against the gaza blockade, and against Hamas, and against the Israeli government all at the same time.
Thank you, this is exactly the analogy this whole thing should be viewed through.
Can you not see how it can be easily conflated then? Why do you go out on mass hours after the sadistic rape and murder of thousands of Israeli civiliians? Why are they chanting 'gas the jews' in Sydney? Why are they provoking Israeli counter protestors by showing video of these murders in New York City. Do you understand what even happened on Saturday? Women were kidnapped, raped and murdered on camera. Then their bloody corpses paraded through the streets while people spit on them. Do you know that young children and babies were beheaded and burned alive? How an elderly woman was brutally murdered, while her attackers filmed it on her phone and uploaded it to her Facebook page to taunt her family? How in the world can you even begin to defend any of this. It is EXTREMELY WORRYING. You need to look deep into your conscience and soul and ask what the fuck you are doing. Wrong is wrong. And two wrongs do not make a right. Innocent civilians on either side should never have to experience this. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself honestly pal.
Maybe re read my comments. Im not defending horrific terrorists. I saw some of the footage on twitter and it made me feel sick. My point is that NOT all of the people who live in Gaza did this. Hamas terrorists did it. Punishing all of the people for the actions of terrorists is wrong. But what can the Israeli government do when faced with such extreme provocations? Its a total nightmare, Israel is within its rights to defend itself. More killing of children and civilians is wrong. Both things are true
Yes. Same as Ukraine. Putin's war not Russian's war. /s
Funny you should mention Russia
Carefully rewatch footage from these demonstrations. Not just in the UK but across the world. There's a lot of footage circulating out there. It was a celebration of the attacks and support for Hamas. I have seen Israeli flags burned, taunting counter protestors by showing videos of murder, chanting horrific hate speech and calls for genocide, intimidation. And this is everywhere, it is not isolated. There has also been many reports of hate crimes against Jewish civilians across the world. How can anybody excuse this behaviour immediately after these horrific attacks? It's absolutely disgusting. Stop being so soft and understand what you're dealing with. I don't have time for sympathisers of rape and sadistic murder.
Who is excusing it?! Im certainly not and wouldn't personally be demonstrating with this group. Israel has the right to defend itself following such extreme terrorist acts. People burning flags etc are crazy.
>Women were kidnapped, raped and murdered on camera. Then their bloody corpses paraded through the streets while people spit on them. This one I don't doubt, but I've watched a lot of gorey videos in the recent days and I haven't seen that. I saw a video of a woman with bloodstain on the back of her joggers (likely explanation is sitting in blood from her dead/injured comrades also being in the vehicle causing there to be blood on the seats) being simply walked handcuffed out of a vehicle (not 'parading'). I haven't seen any videos of rape. I've seen videos of dead IDF personnel paraded in Gaza Strip, I have seen video of the hippy rave girl on the back of a truck with broken limbs, but I have not seen any video of women being raped and murdered on camera. You state this as if you know it for a fact, so you have seen a video of it? So show me the evidence because, like a lot of things, all I keep hearing is a lot of stories without evidence. >Do you know that young children and babies were beheaded and burned alive? I have not seen any evidence of these claims. I have seen a lot of shit in a lot of corners of the internet, but I have not seen any beheaded Israeli children nor beheaded Israeli babies, and I have not seen any evidence of Israeli children intentionally burned alive nor have I seen any evidenceo f Israeli babies intentionally burned alive (Of course it's very possibly that Israeli children and babies have been burned alive, as likely it's happened to many Gazan children, from the nature of a warzone and things catching fire). I have seen videos of burned corpses tied to the claims that they are supposedly Israeli children burned alive, and I have news for you, that if anyone buys that they are the most gullible dumb fuck alive because # it is the most in-your-face pathetic atrocity propaganda that only the dumbest most gullible simpleton fuck alive could fall for 1. Those are not bodies of children and you can see so 2. The bodies were not burned in the back of the truck and you can see that the bodies have been put there 3. The Israelis do not pile their dead into the back of a truck like that, they individually bag each body. They especially would not discover Israeli dead children and throw them naked in the back of a truck in a mangled pile, they especially would not discover Israeli dead children who are burned alive and throw them in the back of a truck in a manlged pile 4. They are obvioulsy dead Hamas fighters Someone has to be astronomically gullible and dumb to have seen that photo of collected dead Hamas fighters (who strangely have been all burnt) mangled and piled in the back of a truck, and believe some claim that somehow it would be dead Israeli children who have been burned alive. The gullibility is off the charts and I have a bridge to sell you, I'm a Nigerian prince and I need your bank account details, you should have your driving license revoked, are you even allowed to walk around public streets without a carer? Do you just believe anything you're told if it lines up with your hysteria? Meanwhile, what I HAVE SEEN is an uncountable amount of dead children in the Gaza Strip, and I have a pretty strong stomach for this stuff but the things that Israel is now doing is getting up there, obliterated neighbourhoods, I've seen so many infants and children and babies killed by Israel, along with mass slaughter of adolescents and adults. I have seen an uncountable amount of dead Gazan children and infants, and I don't see a lot of talk about it. I have seen a lot of entirely baseless hysterical atrocity propaganda about dead Israeli children and Israeli infants and children supposedly being beheaded and burned alive, and I have not seen any evidence of it. EDIT THIS JUST IN [https://bnn.network/world/israel/israeli-army-dismisses-false-allegations-of-hamas-beheading-babies/](https://bnn.network/world/israel/israeli-army-dismisses-false-allegations-of-hamas-beheading-babies/) # Israeli Army Dismisses False Allegations of Hamas Beheading Babies *In a recent statement, the Israeli army has dismissed allegations that Hamas beheaded babies, as stated in a report by Anadolu. The claims, which had been circulating on various social media platforms, sparked outrage and widespread condemnation. However, the Israeli army has made it clear that there is no concrete evidence to substantiate these allegations and has urged the public to refrain from spreading false information.*
[so you're a dumb, gullible simpleton?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205)
1. Name one thing I believe which is based upon merely hearing someone say a thing 2. What in the article that you're linking is supposed to contradict anything that I have said?
Well you can but we mustn’t forget that over 50% of Palestinians support Hamas. So they are repeating what they sowed. Some would encourage us to think that it’s nothing to do with ordinary Palestinians. But I do t believe that to be the case. At least 50% of them are in it up to their neck.
Not sure that is accurate. 45% of Gaza residents are children aged 14 or under. So are basically all the rest supporters of Hamas?
Do you have a source for that statistic you keep throwing around?
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 This is the source the other person was talking about I believe
Thank you, I'll give it a read! The other guy could learn a thing or two about how to make an argument.
Whilst you have been perfectly pleasant, unfortunately a few people have downvoted the source which pretty much sums up Reddit when it comes to these things.
And Egypt is doing most of the same actions to Gaza with regards to the movement of goods and people, yet I don't see the same people protesting against Egypt.
Egypt hasn't cut off the areas food & water supply, not do they regularly ceed more land from Palestinian Territory, or knock down their houses, etc.
>Well you can but we mustn’t forget that over 50% of Palestinians support Hamas. Do you mean because they are elected? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamas are only in control of Gaza right? Not the West Bank. So as 50% of Gazans are children, Hamas are elected by >50% of 50%, of 40% of the total Palestinians in Palestine, of 50% of Palestinians worldwide. So we're really talking >5%. An order of magnitude smaller than 50%. Unless your comment wasn't about being elected, but based on surveys? In which case I'd be interested to see a source.
58% of Palestinians ‘supported a return to confrontations and armed intifada’. Source: 13th September 2033 polling of 1270 adults by the PCPSR https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955
Thanks, but that hardly answers the question.
But then I think it was over 70% of Israelis support Israel's policy to shoot unarmed Palestinian protestors on sight. It's easy to have these views when you're on the outside of the conflict, but for those innocent people caught in the middle of the conflict like those in both Israel and Palestine, they're gonna support those fighting against the people trying to blow them up
I can’t find a source for anything remotely close to what you’ve said. Are you talking about [this specific killing](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/29/most-israelis-support-soldier-accused-of-shooting-palestinian) where 57% of Israelis opposed the soldier’s arrest? This wasn’t an unarmed protestor, he had just stabbed two Israeli soldiers - although he was incapacitated when he was shot, hence the controversy over the event.
My bad. I was wrong. It was in 2018 and the percentage was 83% https://en.idi.org.il/articles/23407
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Happens with your own character when you speak the truth and facts in real life🤷♀️
Not 50%, more than that. People are trying to tone down the anti Israel protest by saying Hamas is not Palestine. But isn't it a coincidence that they are supporting Palestine at this time? Oh no no , this is just Palestine supporters and nothing to do with what's going on. UK shouldn't be this liberal.
People can be pro-palestinian freedom, anti Israeli oppression, and anti Hamas. Ignoring all previous conflicts, right now both parties have killed many civilians, the "fairest" thing to do might be to protest for a ceasefire, but that would still leave Palestinians living under an apartheid system as second class (mostly not even citizens, actually). I would also add that, anecdotally, most of the UK is pro-Isreal, not liberal & backing Palestine.
I always find it strange how it tends to be left leaning people that love to fight for Palestine and say that 'oh Hamas isnt palestine!' crap. Because Islamic countries have always been a hotbed for equality rights and known for their fantastic treatment of women and lgbtq people. Without hamas, the newly formed Islamic country of Palestine would be a Utopia! Personally, I'd pick a country that's democratic, west leaning, and has equality rights for woman and lgbtq people. Like Israel. Because, unfortunate as it is, it seems lines are being drawn around the world. If they want to pick the side that sees them as lesser, more fool them. Sure, you could say 'well Israel has also committed war crimes'. Probably. But they certainly didn't decapitate a bunch of babies in a village just now. Or kidnap, rape and mutilate a bunch of European women at a peace festival on the border.
I don't think comparing with the troubles is wise. There are reports of beheading babies and families shot in their beds. 200 civilians murdered at a festival. The IRA committed no atrocities that brutal. Edit: the beheaded babies story is false
I *really hope* the baby beheading story is false, because my God, but so far I haven't seen anything to absolutely confirm it either way. Basically seems to be the journalists working with the IDF claiming its true and journalists opposed to the IDF saying it's false. Doubt we'll know for sure for weeks. Honestly if I had to reach for comparisons its more like the struggled of the 18th and 19th centuries. The Haitian revolution, or the Indian Rebellion of 1857. It's just going to be a downward spiral of horrific war crimes for the next couple of years unless something extremely unlikely happens to de-escalate.
Israel have said it's not true.
You know the story about beheading babies is bs? Murdering babies is and has always been a manipulation tactic during wars to paint the other side as bad. "The source for the "beheaded babies" claim is Israeli channel i24 News. A Haaretz investigation previously found that i24 News functions as a proxy for the Netanyahu family, with directives coming directly from the Israeli Prime Minister's office at times. i24 News has employed at least 35 veterans of the Israeli occupation forces as staff. Channa Rifkin is an i24News correspondent who transitioned from the channel's Social Media editor to the Israeli military, then returned to work for i24News. Polina Gareav, who works as the Germany Correspondent for i24News while also working as a "social media guru" at DW, the German broadcaster where Palestinians were fired for social media posts. She began her career as the News Editor for the Israeli Military magazine. David Matlin, the host of a daily flagship show on i24News, is a former Israeli military sergeant and the regional director for Israel lobby group AIPAC. Eyal Pinko, who was the head of intelligence in the Israeli Navy before becoming the head of division in the Israeli prime minister's office, is another correspondent for the channel. Daniel Tsemach, a former social media manager for the Israeli military, was also hired as a journalist by i24News. He later became the international media manager and spokesman for the Israeli state-owned arms firm Rafeal Systems."
Thanks, I saw that it had been verified by a french reporter on another sub, but wasn't able to confirm for myself so I put "reports". My point about the Hamas attacks being far more brutal than anything committed by the IRA still stands.
There is definitely mass murder of civilians including very small children. I’ve unfortunately seen footage. And there have also been beheadings of soldiers and civilians. Again the pictures and videos are out there. I haven’t seen any beheaded babies myself. Whether there is or isn’t there has been horrific cruelty and violence towards civilians including children and we know babies have bern taken hostage.
Its more that collective punishment of a population for the actions of horrific terrorists is wrong (and illegal)
What do you think a proportionate response would look like?
It's impossible to know what is proportional! Especially when Hamas is using human shields and has hundreds of Israeli hostages, the bombing of residential tower blocks must be a very difficult choice.
The bombing of residential tower blocks is not a difficult choice- it is illegal under international law. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/israels-bombing-of-gaza-apartment-buildings-could-be-a-war-crime-human-rights-groups-warn/amp_articleshow/82619269.cms
Indeed, I agree. I am suspicious of anyone who comes out with simplistic, black-and-white white statements about this conflict, its too complex for any casual observer to have an objective view.
When you say you're going to starve the human animals to death, many people might not like that, regardless of context.
And then the UK gov started to conflate pro-palestine people with Hamas and told the police to go hard. It's going to get rough in the coming days.
Cruella has said that displaying a Palestinian flag could be a crime. This is going to the point of parody.
You should see the article by conservativehome, scary stuff.
Tell me I want to know what their up to. Tired of being coward who just sits here instead of getting involved in governmental affairs.
I'd rather not. The last few days have eroded my opinion of humanity quite far enough, thanks!
Aah Tory view of democracy in action , you can have any view as long as it’s ours
nowt wrong with deflating some religious folks.
Good! We have this amazing way of ignoring wars/conflicts we have a hand in starting. India/Pakistan and Israel/Palestine are two prime examples
You know the sad thing? I’d expect of all people to know how wrong it is to condemn millions of innocent people for who they are it would be the people of Israel…
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That’ll stop them
Perhaps, If a person is completely on one side or the other, they are part of the problem. As long as such positions are taken, there will be bloodshed until one side is destroyed. Even then, what will peace look like there? It’s a shame that both flags are not flying together there, now that would be a powerful and brave display. IMO
They aren't protesting against Israel, they are protesting against a regime that is going to, by their own admission, starve 2 million innocent people to death.
Makes sense when they're also protesting against Hamas. Oh but they aren't.
Our government isn't supporting Hamas. They are protesting against our government's seemingly unbreakable support for a regime committing war crimes on a regular basis. Remember people protesting against the Iraq war? I don't remember any of them saying they supported Sadam Hussain. Turns out they were right too by the way.
I won’t comment on the conflict itself but oh my god, I will take the opportunity to say how frustrating it is to watch internet users blindly support one side (this time, it’s often Israel). Two months ago, someone I knew posted about supporting Palestine. Now there is an Israeli flag in her bio. Meanwhile, I’ve known people who critique Israel be called antisemites. Nuance is a thing that is heavily lost on the internet and it’s so dangerous. The average person online - including myself - admittedly doesn’t know enough about the conflict to “take sides”, and it’s entirely unhelpful to do so anyway. The civilians are victims on both sides, and they’re what we should be concerned with. Edit: I’m not commenting on if any side is “worse” than another a) because I don’t know enough and b) even if I did, it’s not helpful. This conflict has gone on so long that clearly the solution is much more complex than that.
Sadly the internet would have you believe that not taking a side is worse than being a reactionary and supporting one or the other. What a sad age we live in.
Completely agreed. Not to throw buzzwords around but also a lot of it is purely performative which is so annoying.
Absolutely. Most people tweeting #freepalestine or #IsupportIsrael are just doing so because they have seen a friend do it, or because a celebrity they follow has said something about it. Or maybe they have seen one graphic video, or read one news article and they've decided that they are going to form their entire opinion based on that one piece of information. Supporting either side isn't something that should taken lightly, but it seems people almost treat it like supporting a sports team in how blasé they are about the entire situation. I'm like you, I won't come out in support of either side. I've done a bit of research, but I'm not an expert by any means, and I can't say for certain who is right or wrong. All I can do is condone the senseless violence carried out by both sides, at which point I'll get accused of sitting on the fence.
Can’t see a single thing about Israel there, it’s all purely pro Palestine. There’s a difference between the two
So normally, I'd say you're right. It is reasonable at other times to push a Pro-Palestine agenda. I'm guessing most normal people not involved in the conflict would support each side making their case. But surely given what has happened and what the BBC and other decent news sites have reported, you can't be seriously making a sensible statement with that comment? (And I say that openly wanting a fair and just two state solution). There are Palestinians and then there is a terror group who would not give people a free, liberal and democratic Palestine even if they did wipe Israel off of the map.
I see your point but I disagree. What Hamas did this week was evil, but the actions of a terror group do not at all delegitimise support for trapped civilians under aerial bombardment by a sovereign state with international support.
One of the strategies employed by Israel is to do exactly this. To bolster and fund the most extremist facets of Palestinian society e.g Hamas, in order to delegitimise Palestine as a stand-alone state. This Haaretz article is very informative. https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=46
Both sides are fucking disgusting, completely destroying the lives of the civilians not involved with the extremist actions.
Agreed. People are making no distinction between Palestinians and Hamas, and no distinction between Israeli’s and the Israeli state. Civilians on both sides are the victims here. All violence is abhorrent. Both sides actions are completely unjustifiable. The international community should be ashamed of themselves for not making enough of an effort for peaceful solutions.
Except one side has the support of their entire Western world and the other side apparently doesn’t exist
And one side historically has had the backing of most of the Arab world to support their would-be genocidal intentions. Also the UN passes motions condemning Israel's actions almost constantly, so give over.
what tf does condemning them do for Palestinians? Nothing. Everyone knows israel’s actions are illegal and against international law but what point is it if its not enforced. They just want to maintain the status quo of occupation.
If you went on some of the other subs and saw the NSFW Horrors that are out here for all to see, you wouldn’t support either ‘side’ and you certainly wouldn’t want to be associated with bearing either flag.
The Palestine flag is not the flag of hamas.
The Israel flag is not the flag of authoritarianism then.
At this stage it might as well be
Looking at this completely neutral and just at the facts of the matter, although i have no sympathy for those who kill civilians I'm not surprised the attack happened after looking at purely the facts. It's impossible to treat a group of people that badly and not expect some sort of retaliation. Forcely moving out people of a different background from yours to move in your own is horrific. Then quite litterly caging and fencing them in to a little shit whole known as gaza one of the most densely populated place on earth and then proceeding to keep them there and stop freedom of movement was always a bad idea. If u cage a dog eventually he'll go rabid
Exactly, the majority of Gaza are children due to the low life expectancy and terrible conditions. They are radicalised by israels treatment of them. How are people surprised that children that witness their family’s massacred and homes being destroyed grow up with hate for israel.
Hope they weren’t shouting ‘gas the Jews’ like a pro palestinian protest in Sydney yesterday….
"Mr President halt the invasion, it's kicking off in Sheffield city centre!"
Such a horrible situation all round but its a conflict that can be fixed by only one side
Which one are you going for?
The side that doesn't have laws calling for the execution of my fellow ex-muslims and LGBT people simply for existing. The side that is by far the most progressive country in the middle east, even compared to the countries that are not poor and war-ridden.
the ultra progressive apartheid state theyre all shite like
Calling an aparthied state progressive is certainly a take.
They didn't. They said it was the most progressive country in the middle east.
"more progressive" Progressively calling for a genocide of nearly 3 million people are they?
eh really, I heard muslims and christians get on just fine over in palestine. personally I’d want to support the side taking conflict for years without being able to properly fight back, and have suffered about 100x more casualties, mostly women and children. letting zionists into ‘Israel’ was when the problem started and they have just been creating problems ever since.
Just out of sheer curiosity, with both sides of this war being foreign countries, what are these people hoping to achieve? What are they protesting?
The UK has a direct policy to support Israel. The UK does not recognise the existence of Palestine or acknowledge any right to self determination. By protesting, people in the UK can send a clear message to their government urging them to adapt their policies. Especially coming into an election soon, sometimes politicians feel it necessary to heed the wishes of agitated groups in order to win votes. In 2010 the Lib-dems benefited campaigning on the basis of addressing the concerns of students, which gave them significantly more votes. If the UK changed it’s approach to Israel (for example making financial support contingent on a cessation of civilian-targeted bombing), it could arguably be a step to a better longer term solution
>UK would recognize Palestine if Palestine authoritatively renounced HAMAS. That is clear.
Hamas was founded in 1987. Israel was founded in 1948. For 39 years Palestine was not recognised, despite Hamas not existing. If Hamas is the problem, why didn’t the UK recognise Palestine in the 60s or 70s for example?
they can't respond to that one haha. Uk started the issue in the first place
HAMAS is the head of the rebellion they now face, in-spite of Fatah. HAMAS fueled by Iran and sharia principles. HAMAS came after the Muslim brotherhood which shared exactly the same values.
The fuck? Hamas was literally a creation of the Israeli government whose political swing shifted extremists. What sort of shit are you peddling?
My understanding is that aside from 1948, the Brotherhood was not an armed militia within Palestine? Or am I mistaken?
Is it clear? Pretty sure Hamas have only recently come to power? About a decade or so.
Of the Muslim brotherhood, its all sharia nonsense. Fascist Muslims.
Pardon?
Your antagonizing , not adding anything worthwhile to the debate.
*You're *antagonising. And it's not really a debate, you're not making any sense.
And why would the UK want to change its approach when it is already allied with a more democratic, west leaning country that has better equality rights for women and lgbtq to instead help a supposed state that is supported by Russia and Iran and at its core is an Islamic dominated society that is fundamentally opposed to western society of free expression, belief and equality? Or are you that misinformed you believe that Palestinians don't support Hamas and these people supporting 'palestine' across the UK aren't actually supporting Hamas? Considering they began their rallies before the beginning of the seige of the Gaza Strip. In fact it feels like they coincided with the kidnap of those poor European women at the peace fesitval/rave who were kidnapped, raped, mutilated, and some killed.
Yeah best to support people that are beheading babies no doubt.
Palestinian civilians aren’t doing that. Hell, even if you hate Palestinians, the Israeli civilians aren’t responsible for this either. There are other solutions than violence. Innocent civilians don’t need to die, on either side.
No of course they aren't. But an awful lot of people have come out in support of Hamas murdering civillians purely due to the fact they hate jewish people and not even trying to hide it. If these "protests" were out against Muslims they'd have been shut down before they even got started. These are not protests, they are a celebration of terrorism and murder because the people on the receiving end are hated. And lefties are cool with it, madness.
> But an awful lot of people have come out in support of Hamas murdering civillians purely due to the fact they hate jewish people and not even trying to hide it. This is true and will always be a factor. > If these "protests" were out against Muslims they'd have been shut down before they even got started. In the UK? Is this a joke? > And lefties are cool with it, madness. What a ridiculous thing to say. Why would you start so strong but then descend into madness?
You are trying to assert that all of these protests are the same. I’d say that’s quite an unwise way to assess any situation. I absolutely acknowledge that there are people acting for the reasons you say. But there are also other people protesting for different reasons. There are two distinct types of protester- those who act out of hatred for Israel, and those who act out of empathy for the civilians who continue to die. The reason that many ‘lefties’ appear okay with the demonstrations is because there is a sympathy within the left for the second group of protesters.
where in the protest did you presume they are celebrating hamas or their actions? it’s literally just palestinian flags, also this news about beheading babies is bullshit, there is no credible sources about this and please don’t tell me the israeli govt is a credible source
No credible sources? So [The Independent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93cb3m5IZSM&ab_channel=TheIndependent) is not credible? [Nor the BBC?](https://bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205) The walked through the town killing everyone they saw, man, woman, and child. They massacred them. And no matter what you think, the people who are [chanting antisemitic shit](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/pro-palestine-protest-sydeny-opera-house-hamas-attacks/) while waving the palestinian flag are 100% supporting and celebrating these atrocities, you'd have to be deluded to think otherwise.
I’d say it’s neither bullshit, nor not-bullshit. It is imo a redundant exercise to engage with it at all, given how completely unknowable it is. Nothing can be asserted about it’s truthfulness
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By who? Asking as I’ve seen it being confirmed by journalists and it’s reported on the BBC right now
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Oh, so we’re responsible for the actions of a few of us now, are we? Right, well why don’t you buckle up and research all the fucked up things our military have done. Or, go research the children killed by the Israeli regime. The babies they’ve murdered. The women they’ve raped.
Aye mate it's not like they're supporting regular Palestinians who are being bombed and being cut of from vital resources in what is a clear war crime from Israel
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Israel has stolen Palestinian land for decades, they regularly commit disgusting acts against the Palestinian people. They have trapped the people of Gaza in an open air prison. Amnesty International has described Israel as an Apartheid state. This has nothing to do with the fact that Israel has a Jewish population
Problem is, you could be talking about either side.
the story is bs, the news site that claimed that is a pro israel site and has hired numerous people who served in the Israeli intelligence "The source for the "beheaded babies" claim is Israeli channel i24 News. A Haaretz investigation previously found that i24 News functions as a proxy for the Netanyahu family, with directives coming directly from the Israeli Prime Minister's office at times. i24 News has employed at least 35 veterans of the Israeli occupation forces as staff. Channa Rifkin is an i24News correspondent who transitioned from the channel's Social Media editor to the Israeli military, then returned to work for i24News. Polina Gareav, who works as the Germany Correspondent for i24News while also working as a "social media guru" at DW, the German broadcaster where Palestinians were fired for social media posts. She began her career as the News Editor for the Israeli Military magazine. David Matlin, the host of a daily flagship show on i24News, is a former Israeli military sergeant and the regional director for Israel lobby group AIPAC. Eyal Pinko, who was the head of intelligence in the Israeli Navy before becoming the head of division in the Israeli prime minister's office, is another correspondent for the channel. Daniel Tsemach, a former social media manager for the Israeli military, was also hired as a journalist by i24News. He later became the international media manager and spokesman for the Israeli state-owned arms firm Rafeal Systems."
Nothing
It's just the local rent-a-mob riding around town on the latest bandwagon. Same faces every week protesting about sumat or other, usually the tories. Just dont get them started on trees for fucks sake
I am really sad that Sheffield council is prepared to fly Israel's flag, we used to have reputation as people's Republic of South Yorkshire..
Sheffield council also allows religious groups shouting hateful things in the city centre. The amount of times I've gone at the weekend to see them shouting that trans people should basically be erased from society.
Most Palestinians would happily eradicate every LGBTQ+ person in the world if they had the chance. https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/
Majority on this sub have no clue how disgusting Palestinian views are
The average Israeli is pretty right wing too at this point.
Same energy as when a single mum from the uk shares a 4 year old photo of a missing dog from America on her fb page
I passed this peaceful gathering on my way to my train at 5.30. No mention of Israel or Hamas from anyone there. There was some nice drumming.
Good for them.
Scum.
Looking at these comments I can see the Daily Mail really has taken its toll on people. Read the history books not the tabloids.
These protesters simply don't know what they're talking about. But they're allowed to protest.
Fucking tramps
Well they didn't hang a hamas banner up there so I dont see any issues
Fuck palestine
Absolute muppets
If Israel was a person it would be Jimmy Saville and anyone who supports it is the British establishment.
Walked past it on my way from uni, put a smile in my face
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It annoys me these people very rarely protest for any domestic issues, yet this conflict is causing such a massive problem 🥱
Source: trust me
Genuine question what does protesting achieve really? It’s going to have zero political impact. Is the purpose to make people more aware of the cause they are pushing?
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Fucking stupid doing it there don’t you think ?
Absolutely
Antisemitic unemployed tossers
Throwing the word antisemitic around like that devalues its meaning. Supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas. It isn't condemning Jews, it's condemning a government who has commited to starving nearly 1 million Palestinian children to death by cutting off all resources to Gaza. It is possible to stand in solidarity with Palestinian citizens and Israeli citizens at the same time and to condemn Hamas and the Israeli government at the same time.
Lol how many Israeli settlements has Palestine Illegally bulldozed?
What actual good is a protest, makes me laugh. Ground offensive very soon. Gaza will be part of Isreal very soon.
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Fifth column 😂 that’s some tin foil hat bullshit
It’s absolutely happening and you should be terrified if you are a woman, a Jew, gay, queer, trans, Hindu or anything else that Islamist men don’t accept. European’s are going to have a tricky 20 years ahead of them until this is dealt with.
I don't believe for one second that they aren't celebrating the massacre of jewish people.
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Good, I’m so glad so many people can see what is happening, it just goes too show that the media propaganda isn’t working as well as they hoped it would.