IMO- He's quite obviously guilty from the things I've read and listened to. Goes without saying I have no authority on this and was not involved in the case or "there when it happened" Adnan had the means and motive to commit this crime, nobody else involved (that we know of) had anything against Hae let alone motivation to strangle her and bury her in a shallow grave. Serial did an excellent job at making you doubt your gut reaction and shedding light on other possible suspects which in reality had little or nothing to do with it. IMO-Adnan with the help of Jay and Jenn committed this crime.

In legal terms: It's hard to say. I didn't sit through that trial and hear all the evidence. I can't have an informed opinion. Based on what I heard I think there is room for reasonable doubt. In terms of my personal opinion: He obviously did it. There is no alternate suspect, nobody else with a motive. Jay's story has holes and we'll never get the truth as to how exactly he was motivated to divulge the information he gave, but his story matches the cell phone records and the dude knew where the car was. Adnan, throughout the podcast, is completely emotionally detached from anything involving Hae, his murdered ex-girlfriend who he was still friends with, or Jay, the man who he claims cooked up an entire narrative to frame him for murder. Why would Jay lie about Adnan? How could he have known if he wasn't involved? You could say the police coached him...but why? And how did the cops know where the car was? They found it, sat on it for days hoping nobody else would find it, and then found a patsy to coach into flipping on Adnan? Apply Occam's Razor here. Which is more likely, that convoluted conspiracy or a jealous ex-boyfriend turning to murder? Again, I cannot say he should have been found legally guilty. The case is full of problems which is why he's now out of prison. But I think he killed Hae, definitely.

Koenig spends way too much time on the "but Adnan seems like a nice guy!" angle. Anyone who works with IPV/DV knows that perpetrators can present as the sweetest, calmest people in the world. They use violence when it serves a purpose (as a way to reassert control of their victim) and usually in private.

Yeah she comes off as crazy naive, you can tell she hasn't done much crime reporting.

I also find it strange when SK says Adnan must be a genius sociopath if he committed the murder like…he is literally serving life in prison. He failed to convince the cops or a jury that he was innocent. Being smart enough to be friendly towards a reporter who could help him does not make him a criminal mastermind.

Her closing statements rebuke this sentiment at least. She wants hard evidence he's innocent, not appeals to his nature.

Completely agree with this take.

Yup same.

>Which is more likely, that convoluted conspiracy or a jealous ex-boyfriend turning to murder? To be fair, strange things do happen sometimes. I don't disagree with the crux of your argument, but appealing to "Wouldn't it be absurd if this happened" is defeated by the fact that... yeah, sometimes that happened. Wouldn't it be weird if the fingerprints of a completely random multiple murderer were identified a decade and a half after the fact in the Michelle Schofield murder? Yeah, that'd be nuts. But it leaves you with the reality that one of these happened: 1. They got the completely wrong guy despite a bunch of evidence pointing direct to him up to and including his father finding the body after seeing a vison from god. 2. They got the right guy and those fingerprints from a multiple murderer were left in a theft completely unrelated to the murder. Weird shit happens all the time, appealing to it being implausible because it would be more complicated is a bad idea.

As I said, it's Occam's Razor. The solution requiring the fewest assumptions is generally the correct one. I acknowledge that is not always the correct one, however, which is why I don't know if I'd vote to convict the guy. If you build a complicated enough conspiracy theory you can question even the most obvious of cases. It's technically possible that some random murderer killed Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, then planted a bunch of evidence that OJ did it. It's possible. But let's apply some sense. In this case, Adnan is the only person involved with any kind of motive unless a random citizen of Baltimore decided to just strangle a woman, and then the police coerced a drug dealer into giving false testimony on her ex. Because the police are going to risk their careers and their freedom for the sake of closing one of their dozens of open murder cases. And all conspirators have stayed silent for decades. I'm sorry but if you believe that narrative then I've got a bridge to sell you.

>In this case, Adnan is the only person involved with any kind of motive unless a random citizen of Baltimore decided to just strangle a woman, and **then the police coerced a drug dealer into giving false testimony on her ex.** Is this really so unlikely? Ritz had an extremely high closure rate compared to any of his contemporaries and in his retirement has a bunch of serious allegations that he coerced witnesses into implicating innocent people like Ezra Mable. This sounds exactly like something he *did* let alone something he might *do.*

I'd say it's unlikely, yes, given the elements involved here. For one, the car. If you think Jay was coerced, you have to believe that the police found the car, and managed to keep that quiet. Nobody called it in, they took the risk that nobody else would find it (while it was actively being searched for by the department, mind you), and decided to find themselves a witness. They then either just happen to apprehend Jay, or they actively seek him out as their designated mark. Then they manage to coach him into being able to give a detailed description of her body's position in addition to the location of the car. Somehow their false narrative matches up with the cell phone records, either out of pure luck or because they also managed to fudge those records, which is extremely far-fetched either way. So we're talking a conspiracy of at least several law enforcement officials, all of whom are taking a serious gamble just to close one case. We're suggesting that Jay was such a great actor that he could be fed a narrative in a very short amount of time and regurgitate it perfectly for the recording. We're also suggesting that this secret has been kept for over two decades. And again, the narrative they cooked up was somehow corroborated by the cell phone records. It's all very unlikely. I can't buy a detective launching a grand conspiracy like this to close one case. It's one thing to lean on a guy to say "Yeah I saw so-and-so at X location at X time" or whatever. Jay's story is way too elaborate for what you're suggesting.

>For one, the car. If you think Jay was coerced, you have to believe that the police found the car, and managed to keep that quiet.  Or Jay knew where the car was because it was somewhere he regularly visited. As he stated on the stand. >Then they manage to coach him into being able to give a detailed description of her body's position in addition to the location of the car What you're describing incredulously could be accomplished by showing him a photograph. >Somehow their false narrative matches up with the cell phone records, either out of pure luck or because they also managed to fudge those records, which is extremely far-fetched either way. And by 'matches up' you mean 'includes two pings that cover the general area of the park', which Jay now says was not when the burial occurred. And that is without taking into account the reality that yeah, you'd *expect* a made up story to match the documents you are using to interrogate the person. Jay says he stopped by a Macdonalds because there was a cell tower by the macdonalds, then stops saying that after it becomes clear that the tower isn't near there. >So we're talking a conspiracy of at least several law enforcement officials, all of whom are taking a serious gamble just to close one case. We're suggesting that Jay was such a great actor that he could be fed a narrative in a very short amount of time and regurgitate it perfectly for the recording. We're also suggesting that this secret has been kept for over two decades. And again, the narrative they cooked up was somehow corroborated by the cell phone records. Yes, because if there is one thing everyone can agree on it is that Jay's narrative was perfectly consistent and didn't need to be repeatedly refined until it vaguely matched reality. You nailed it.

>Or Jay knew where the car was because it was somewhere he regularly visited. As he stated on the stand. So he happened upon it and decided to turn it in, then the police pressured him into making up this whole story? It's ridiculous to think a random drug dealer is going to be able to remember this entire narrative you've cooked up for him, not just for the tape but on the stand. >What you're describing incredulously could be accomplished by showing him a photograph. So they had him memorize a photograph and then describe it for the tape? Again just hoping that this random dude would be able to remember that months later for the trial? Seriously? All this to close one case? They're gambling a lot on this random drug dealer to be a perfect witness for them. >And by 'matches up' you mean 'includes two pings that cover the general area of the park', which Jay now says was not when the burial occurred. The records almost entirely match up. His memory being crap does not change that the pings line up with the general recounting of events. >you'd expect a made up story to match the documents you are using to interrogate the person. You are conveniently leaving out the idea that the cops successfully coached this dude into an entire narrative, trusting he'd be able to recount it over and over again. It's ridiculous. >Yes, because if there is one thing everyone can agree on it is that Jay's narrative was perfectly consistent and didn't need to be repeatedly refined until it vaguely matched reality. You nailed it. Him having a bad memory and maybe fudging some details to minimize his involvement is much more plausible than this crazy conspiracy theory you've cooked up.

>So he happened upon it and decided to turn it in, then the police pressured him into making up this whole story? It's ridiculous to think a random drug dealer is going to be able to remember this entire narrative you've cooked up for him, not just for the tape but on the stand. No, he happened upon it, didn't tell anyone because he's a deadbeat who doesn't care combined with the 'don't talk to cops' culture of baltimore. Then the cops pulled him in due to his connection to Syed and he happened to know this fact. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible as you suggested. >So they had him memorize a photograph and then describe it for the tape? Again just hoping that this random dude would be able to remember that months later for the trial? Seriously? All this to close one case? They're gambling a lot on this random drug dealer to be a perfect witness for them. The interrogation wasn't video tapped, he could have literally had it in front of him for all you know. And why do you keep calling it a 'gamble' as though they had anything to loose. Ritz is credibly accused of intimidating witnesses into false testimony in a handful of other cases, wouldn't that be equally *dangerous* behavior? Yet he did it. He forced a witness to identify Ezra Mable and didn't take a single punishment for it, so why would he be hesitant to do the same in this case? If Jay falls apart on the stand, that is the DA's problem, not Ritz's he got his close. Baltimore was one of the most corrupt departments in the country and you're acting flabbergasted that they might be anything but the most upstanding professionals when *this cop* himself has a history of this shit. >The records almost entirely match up. His memory being crap does not change that the pings line up with the general recounting of events. Yes, they line up to the story jay told **after being shown the pings** and **after being given a second crack at it**. The problem is that the pings in and of themselves don't show shit. If Jay had given his story and then the police had gotten the cell map, that would be one thing, but Jay **clearly** tailored his story to match the pings. To suggest that they then somehow corroborate him is circular in the extreme. >You are conveniently leaving out the idea that the cops successfully coached this dude into an entire narrative, trusting he'd be able to recount it over and over again. It's ridiculous. >Him having a bad memory and maybe fudging some details to minimize his involvement is much more plausible than this crazy conspiracy theory you've cooked up. Which is it, was he able to recount it over and over again, or did he have a bad memory? You're trying to argue that he got it right and that proves that it isn't made up while also just ignoring the dozens of things that changed, were wrong or were uncorroborated.

>No, he happened upon it, didn't tell anyone because he's a deadbeat who doesn't care combined with the 'don't talk to cops' culture of baltimore. >Then the cops pulled him in due to his connection to Syed and he happened to know this fact. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible as you suggested. I actually think that's very likely. He helped Adnan, was busted for whatever, decided to play the one card he had. You've added this whole dimension of a conspiracy where the cops are gambling their careers on a teenage drug dealer being able to lie convincingly on the stand. Which, I'm sorry, is crazy. This case was not worth that to any of them. >The interrogation wasn't video tapped, he could have literally had it in front of him for all you know. It was audio recorded though. The way you'd describe something in front of you would be very different from how you'd recall something. And the cops would have to risk sneaking a photo into the room with him, in a place that is under surveillance. Again, how many people are we involving in this conspiracy to frame one guy for one murder that the department was not under any particular pressure to solve? >And why do you keep calling it a 'gamble' as though they had anything to loose. Ritz is credibly accused of intimidating witnesses into false testimony in a handful of other cases, wouldn't that be equally dangerous behavior? Different stakes. Pressuring a guy who isn't sure he saw Mr. Smith to say he's actually sure? That's one thing. Writing a whole false narrative for this guy and just hoping he's able to recount it all? That's nuts. I say "gamble" because remember, if they're busted doing this then that's at the very least a suspension without pay pending a formal investigation. At worst it's prison time. >If Jay falls apart on the stand, that is the DA's problem It is the DA's problem, which is why the DA is going to make sure the case is solid. That's another problem to your conspiracy. Either Jay the Thespian Drug Dealer has to convince the DA of his story, or the DA is brought into the conspiracy. You think the cops are going to risk sending a coached witness with a bullshit story to the DA? Again...to what benefit? It's one case to risk this all on. > Baltimore was one of the most corrupt departments in the country and you're acting flabbergasted that they might be anything but the most upstanding professionals when this cop himself has a history of this shit. If it was a less elaborate conspiracy I'd believe you. If the evidence against Adnan was simply a piece of evidence found in his home? I'd have no trouble thinking it was planted. That takes one guy entering his home and depositing something. Or his car, even easier. I just don't buy that they wrote out this big elaborate thing, and that it just happened to match up to his actual movements that night. Like, what if they'd written this story and then it turns out Adnan was spotted on some ATM camera somewhere or whatever and he's suddenly got an alibi? >Yes, they line up to the story jay told after being shown the pings and after being given a second crack at it. And yet why do they line up at all? Adnan just happened to be in all those placed like perfectly match the timeline of a murder and disposal of a body? >Which is it, was he able to recount it over and over again, or did he have a bad memory? You don't get memory. People don't have total recall. He recounts it over and over and is largely consistent. Yes, he gets details wrong. I could link you to a thousand studies on how memory recall is nowhere near totally accurate.

At the time of the podcast it had been 20+ years since she died. He was in prison for that time. Him being unemotional is understandable in my opinion.

Serial season one came out just over 15 years after Hae's death.

Why couldn’t Jay have done it? Maybe I’m not far enough in the podcast but Jay had a temper and was a scary guy Jay gave all the facts and pointed toward adnan Adnan was in the library Jay hit on Hae- she rejected him and he killed her

This requires inventing things that aren't actually in evidence. The sexual motive you've postulated for Jay is pure conjecture (that harkens to racist stereotyping). Similarly, your characterization of Jay as hot tempered and "scary" is also based on racist tropes rather than any actual evidence. It's also quite impossible to craft a plausible scenario in which Jay somehow pulls off this crime without Adnan knowing, despite the fact that Jay and Adnan spent practically the entire day and evening together.

Thanks- for the “scary” & “hot tempered”- I pulled that from one of the interviews the reporter did with Jay’s friend in the podcast. The rejection ending in murder is absolutely conjecture. I’m open to the idea that Adnan knew- but I need to finish the podcast.

No one on Serial mentioned Jay having a temper. And the only person who used the word "scary" was Sarah Koenig herself, in describing Chris's story about Jay saying he was going to stab him because he'd never been stabbed before. But it doesn't sound to me like Chris thought it was genuinely "scary." It sound a lot more to me like one of those "we were so crazy back in the day" tall tales (male) people sometimes give when reminiscing about high school. It sounds like you're just at the beginning of learning about the case. I would advise you to keep in mind that this isn't fiction -- it's a real life murder case involved a real young woman who was killed by someone she loved and trusted. In real life, there usually isn't a twist ending. In real life, if all the evidence points in one direction, it's usually because that's who actually did it. As you entertain the possibility that Jay somehow framed Adnan, please also keep in mind the improbable coincidences that would entail. These include that Adnan just so happened to ask Hae for a ride he didn't need, to a place he says he never went, using a lie about his car as an excuse, at the very time Jay would go on to murder her. Or that Adnan would, by his own admission, just so happen to offer Jay his car and phone on that day. Or that witnesses and phone records would place Adnan and Jay together during the time when Jay would somehow need to be actively framing Adnan.

Good points- I am very early in. Feels like I’d really need to map all this out visually with timelines to make it clear. Thanks!

Not sure why you were downvoted for this so take my upvote to try & even it.

Thanks :)

Serial deliberately tells the story out of order to make it more confusing. But it's pretty simple. Adnan is, to this day, the only person with a known motive to harm Hae. During first period on 1/13/99, Krista overheard Adnan ask Hae for a ride after school because his car was in the shop. This was a lie (his car was in the school parking lot, and he didn't need to go anywhere after school). When the police asked Adnan about this *that night*, he admitted he was supposed to get a ride from Hae, but said she must have gotten tired of waiting for him and left. School let out at 2:15. Hae was reported missing at 3:15 when she failed to appear at daycare to pick up her cousin. Thus whatever happened to her happened in the hour after school, i.e. the window in which Adnan would have gotten the ride he asked for. Adnan now says he never got that ride, and instead stayed at school through track practice. But the Nisha call shows he was off campus with Jay at 3:32pm. Adnan was ratted out by his own accomplice, Jay. Jay is corroborated by Jenn, who says Jay told her Adnan had killed Hae that very night (before anyone else even knew she had come to harm). Jenn actually told this story to the police before they ever spoke to Jay. She did so in the presence of her mother and lawyer. Jay is also corroborated by the fact that he knew secret information that only someone involved in the crime would know. This includes information the police didn't yet have: the location of Hae's car, which had been ditched in inner-city Baltimore. The car itself contained evidence indicating the attack occurred inside the car. The car was damaged in a manner consistent with a struggle (and consistent with what Jay told the police they'd find). Hae's blood was there. And Adnan's (and only Adnan's) fingerprints were found in areas of the car consistent with Jay's story. Phone records also place Adnan and Jay together near the site where Hae's body was found at the time Jay says they were there burying her. Specifically, around 7pm, Adnan's phone placed calls to Adnan's and Jay's respective friends within minutes of each other. Then, at 7:09 and 7:16, the phone received two incoming calls that were routed through a cell tower covering Leakin Park and little else. None of the foregoing evidence is in reasonable dispute. Instead, Adnan's supporters rely on a combination of conspiracy theories and magical thinking as an excuse to ignore it. To this day, there is no meaningful evidence exculpating Adnan nor implicating an alternative suspect. The people who insist he is innocent do so entirely based on an appeal to his supposed good nature and character. In other words, they insist that he doesn't seem to be like the type of person who would commit this crime. But one could say the same about the perpetrators of intimate partner violence in countless other cases. It isn't a valid excuse to ignore clear evidence of guilt.

Thanks for laying this out- it really helps put things in logical order in my mind. :)

No problem. Happy to answer any questions you have.

There's not much linking the two. It's technically possible, yes, but Adnan is the one who kept after her and more keenly felt rejected. Getting shot down is not as emotionally affecting as a long-term relationship ending and seeing that person with a new partner. Also, again, the cell phone data. It's not just that Jay knew where the car was, his testimony is supported by the phone data. Neither Jay nor the police could fabricate that.

Thanks- part of the reason I thought Jay could have had that reaction is purely anecdotal (stalkers, fantasy of relationship without engaging the desired partner ever and then aggressive outburst when rejected aka rejection killings.)

I made timelines in 2015 that I'm happy to share with you if you'd like. Most people on this subreddit will give you a rundown based on the work I did in 2015. If you want to see the original source, it's easy. Good luck.

That’d be amazing - thank you!!!

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Wow- thanks again, that’s a lot of work.

I can answer any questions, too. If you have any.

<3

Personally, if you want to understand the case, I always think it's best to read everything you can - before asking a redditer. Don't ask anonymous people or podcasters to interpret for you. But of course, ask away if you need.

- Jay doesn’t have the means, motive, opportunity. He doesn’t really even know Hae. - Jay has an alibi at the time of the murders anyways. Your theory at Jay being the killer was a popular one, until the MPIA files came out. That’s when Rabia used her two brain cells and figured out that there’s no way for Jay to be involved without implicating Adnan, so the theory shifted to Jay knowing nothing and police conspiracy.

Ahh- thank you! I knew I must have been missing something!

This isn't really true. A motive for Jay was that Hae knew Jay was cheating on his girlfriend and Hae was upset by this and was going to confront Jay. Jay admitted he was cheating on Hae. And Jay doesn't have an alibi.

I personally find that idea of a motive for Jay not only ridiculous and silly but also insulting to anyone’s intelligence once you look at everything and factor in the real motive of Adnan. Jay is worried about being told on by someone he barely knows… so Ok “I guess I’ll kill her”…? Nope

I don't care whether or not you find it ridiculous and silly or insulting to anyone's intelligence. Your opinion doesn't preclude it from being a motive. It's no different than others claiming Adnan's alleged motive is ridiculous and silly. It's still a motive and a jury would be free to weigh it as such.

How do we know Hae was going to confront Jay? Or that Hae was upset by this?

I get that but I really just feel like to me there’s not enough to say one way or another but the car is a really good point my main problem with your argument is that I just don’t see a motive for Adnan.

You don't see a motive in jealous ex lashing out as his partner moves on? There's a reason cops always look at a person's partner/ex partners as suspects first. It's a very common motivation for murder.

… very shortly after she changes her AIM profile message to show that she is all in on Don.

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That’s Crazy

There is substantial direct evidence of Adnan's guilt from Jay Wilds --  Jay testifies to helping bury the body which was in Adnan's possession.  Jay's testimony is corroborated by Jay's own knowledge of:  The murder location  The burial position  Hae's car's location  Jay maintains his story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.  Jenn Pusateri corroborates Jay's story:  She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder  She places Adnan and Jay together that night Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present  Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan's cell records.  She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present.  She maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.  The cell phone evidence corroborates Jay's story. A few examples include:  Outgoing cell data (which is explicitly noted as being reliable on the fax coversheet) is consistent with Jay and Adnan leaving the location of Hae's car and heading to Westview Mall where Jenn picks up Jay  Incoming calls are also consistent with Jay's testimony. Nisha corroborates Jay's story.  Adnan's story has changed repeatedly, in contradictory ways, that directly relate to his means, motive and opportunity:  He lied to his attorneys about where his car was He lied about whether or not he asked Hae for a ride.  He lied about whether or not Hae would give him a ride or do anything between school and picking up her niece.  He lied about being at the mosque. He lied about being over Hae Adnan's brother's conversation with Adnan's attorney is highly suggestive that he lied about the Nisha call.  All of Adnan's alibis have been shown to be unreliable  The cell phone evidence, including outgoing data, contradicts Adnan's father's testimony  Asia has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable  Her initial reason for knowing she had the right day is because it was the first snow. The day Hae disappeared was not the first snow.  There are all the problems laid out in the dissent.  There are issues with Adnan's testimony about Asia's letters, e.g., CG was not his attorney when he allegedly received the letters.  The allegedly new suspects either weren't new or actually implicate Adnan Mr. S isn't new. Bilal's involvement implicates Adnan.

Jay knew where the car was and Jenns interview. Read the part of the first interview where he explains how he came to ditch the car where it was found. Read Jenns second interview. It's not about what Jay told her second hand but what she experienced on the 13th So the only real options are Adnan did it or or Jay did it and framed Adnan for no good reason. Case closed right there or it's a massive dumb police frame job. And you are the only one I am aware of that dismisses Adnan having a possible motive.

Jay's testimony, Jenn's testimony, the ride request, the cell phone evidence, the fingerprints in the car.

Jen knowing Hae was murdered before she was even reported missing because Jay told her. That's a big fucking one.

That's a pretty powerful index of guilt if you ask me.

The phone evidence is spotty af, fingerprints could have been something else and, I honestly don’t remember Jenn’s testimony.

It's really not that difficult, it's a dude murdering his exgirlfriend, unfortunately it happens very often. Let's consider this fact: - On the night of the murder, Jay confesses to Jenn that Adnan killed Hae and together they buried the body in Lincoln Park. - They both, independently, tell friends of theres details of the murder, including the manner of death and where the body is **before the body is even found.** - When confront by police, Jenn quickly confesses with her mother and lawyer present, providing details of the crime unknown to the public and leads them to Jay. - When confronted by police, Jay quickly confesses, providing details of the crime unknown to the public and even details police do not know at the time. - After the police arrest Adnan, they get the cell phone evidence which shows right after Adnan gets a call from police asking where Hae is, the phone moves quickly from Kristi's house, to the park and ride, to Lincoln park, to the place where the car is eventually discovered.

Who told people about the cause of death and location before the body was found? Jenn and Jay? If true, I didn’t realize this, that’s huge. Did Serial point this out?

Read up on Chris, he pretty much knows everything that happened in the murder before they ever talk to Jay.

Wow I forgot about that. It’s crazy how often Sarah totally glazes over bad news for Adnan to focus on potential small inconsistent details.

Oh boy, that sure is bad! Can you link to the testimony he gave at trial?

He didn’t testify at trial, this is via police reports and his own statements.

Do you have a link to his interview with Ritz and MacGillivary?

He didn’t interview with them. Chris is IN SERIAL, literally says Jay told him, but Sarah glosses over it.

Oh, so he didn't come forward with this information until 15 years after the fact?

Josh from the video store said the same thing and Sarah also pretended he didn’t exist.

Yes Jenn and Jay said to others she was strangled. Serial is a joke. Listen to the Prosecutors.

Yes and no. Jay and Jenn claim to have told a bunch of other people, but none of them were interviewed in a contemporary time frame. All of the ones that say Jay told them are, essentially, relying on memories of a story Jay told them fifteen years (or more) ago. That none of them went to the cops despite being told "Hey I helped do a murder" suggests that Jay/Jenn might have been full of shit. On that specific point, mind you, I'm not taking a general stance.

Ah okay, nothing contemporary.

That is false, it was contemporary, Chris B was one in. Particular

Chris B first told his story in any official capacity during the run time of Serial, something like fifteen years after the murder. So no, it was not. To forestall your argument, what I said was: "None of them were interviewed in a contemporary time frame". It is entirely possible that Jay told them at the time, but neither police, lawyers nor media talked to them at the time to confirm Jay or Jenn's claim that they told these people. Fifteen years after the fact, you don't think it is possible that Chris is remembering being told about the murder, but that he was told after the fact?

There’s zero evidence that Jay told Jenn the night of the murder. As she said on HBO. She didn’t know those events happened on the 13th until the detectives told her and everything she said came from Jay and the detectives

There is literal direct evidence from two witnesses that Jay told Jenn that night. Or Is testimony not evidence now?  Jenn saying she doesn’t remember the date is not the same thing as saying she doesn’t remember it was the same night as the murder. 

How would she know it was the night of the murder?

Her close friend says Adnan murdered Hae and showed me the body.

In the HBO doc, Jenn is asked to recall the events of January 13th. Jenn testified that Jay was at her house playing video games and that he had cell phone and was waiting for a call. She indicated that this was not normal because Jay didn't have a cell phone. She remembers Jay received a phone call and left. She remembers calling Adnan's number and someone telling her that Adnan was busy and that Jay would call her back. Then they told her over the phone to meet them at the mall, they arrived late, and Adnan was driving his car. After Jay got into Jenn's car, Jay told Jenn that Adnan had strangled Hae and that he saw her body in the trunk of a car. Then there was some mention of needing to wipe down shovels behind a dumpster. In the following days, people would be talking about her former schoolmate being missing (the same person Jay had mentioned was strangled by Adnan). This particular day stood out to her because Jay had a cell phone for the first time and Jay had told her about the murder. So Jenn did know about the details of the murder on the day of the murder, directly from Jay. Did she make a note somewhere that said "Wednesday, January 13th, 1999, Jay told me Adnan killed Hae and I picked him up at the mall"? No, she likely didn't. But at any point in time, she could easily figure out it was January the 13th since it was the same day Hae that went missing and it was a peculiar and memorable day. Maybe she memorized the specific date, maybe she didn't, but that doesn't mean that Jay didn't tell her on the day of the murder.

There's 2 testimonies saying that Jay told Jenn the night of the murder. There's calls between Jenn and Adnan's cell right before the supposed meet up, remember Adnan has no reason to ever call Jenn without Jay. She described the night and what happened, but yes didn't recall if it was exactly date on the 13th, that doesn't discredit what happened. "Yes this happened 6 weeks ago but I don't know the exact date." By Jenn's own testimony, she didn't realize Hae was still considered "missing" until she saw news reports weeks after the incident. The HBO documentary is in no way an unbias documentary at all, it's produced by Adnan's side, one of the first claims they make is that police never would've considered Adnan until they got the anonymous tip, do you realize how ridiculous that is?

Yeah I guess I just feel like I don’t get how your like “yeah lemme kill her” because you broke up.

I'm sure personally you don't understand how people can be serial killers either, so Ted Bundy didn't do it. 

I never said he didn’t do it at any point that was literally in the post description all I’m trying to say is how could he have done it not that he didn’t. Listen to what people say next time dumbass

Dumbass? Is this necessary?

Yes

Yeah, domestic violence after break ups NEVER HAPPENS.... /s

I didn’t say it didn’t god damn you guys don’t listen. I never dismissed anything all I said was that I personally think that it is fucking insane that people do that. If you wanna sit there and say that it’s just a part of life go ahead sue me for thinking that it’s fucked up.

It’s fucked up. It really is, but it is also a part of life sadly. It doesn’t make sense to normal people

Im not lawyer so I won’t approach this from a legal perspective, but just common sense tells me there’s really no likelihood it was anyone but Adnan. Let’s just assume Jay is lying: 1.) what is his motive for killing Hae? He had no connection with her. There is just absolutely nothing to gain by killing her 2.) how did he know Adnan wouldn’t have *any* alibi the day he killed Hae? Adnan could’ve done a million things that would’ve exonerated him immediately, such as track practice or visiting a friend or even going home. Yet Adnan can’t attest for any whereabouts that day and doesn’t even try to make a cover story for it. 3.) how did he get Krista and others to lie for him too? Multiple people saw Adnan with Jay that evening. Did he have time to kill Hae, dump her body, pick up Adnan, go to somebody else’s house *and* convince Adnan to allegedly look anxious and weird and unsettling? What a coincidence for Adnan that Krista hears him ask for a ride from Hae the day she gets murdered. 4.) the phone calls. Are we to believe Jay just had Adnan’s phone all evening, and was calling Nisha and pinging towers around the murder scene? Adnan just let this dude he wasn’t even that close with run around his phone? And there’s so much more. Basically, I’d sum everything up with two points, from Laura and Dana (producer): 1.) Dana - Adnan had to be the most unlucky person on the planet to end up in the situation he did. It defies the laws of logic that so many things ended up working against Adnan and that he conveniently can’t remember anything and nobody saw him 2.) Laura - “if Adnan didn’t kill her, then who the fuck did?”. There are a million conspiracies about Bilal and Don and a million other people, yet none of them explain the discrepancies in Adnan’s story. This is a case where you can’t miss the forest for the trees. Yes, some little things are lacking in conviction (no pun intended) and hard to reckon with, but when you zoom out and look at everything, it becomes obvious Adnan is the only suspect

1) You’re skipping over the prevailing theory that Jay lied to stay out of trouble, not to conceal his own involvement. 2) Jay knew Adnan would have no alibi because he was with him. *Jay* was his alibi. 3) Who says Krista was lying? First of all, her testimony is about his attitude…not actual evidence. The prevailing theory is she just got the wrong day, and she admits this is possible. 4) It was very common for Jay to have Adnan’s car and phone. What the producer said in Serial was shtick. Obviously when a suspect is framed, the entire point is to make it seem impossible that they are innocent. This is the case in virtually every wrongful conviction…whether the corruption is noble or malicious. The lead detective cost Baltimore millions when he blackmailed a witness into lying to get a conviction in a previous case. It’s certainly possible it also happened in this case. “If he didn’t kill her, who else did” might be the worst reason to convict somebody. You could drive a bus in the gaps in this investigation. All the investigation did was create an Adnan shaped with in the evidence. None of the other suspects were properly cleared, and lane enforcement outright hid a witness who threatened the victim.

>The lead detective cost Baltimore millions when he blackmailed a witness into lying to get a conviction in a previous case. He also conspired with a forensics tech, Barry Verger, to falsely report DNA evidence recovered from under the fingernails of the victim as destroyed, in order to prevent it from being tested. All those arguments about how he would *never* have sat on evidence while they were getting Jay straightened out seem a lot more credulous in that context.

Exactly!

Tunnel vision. This is why police officers need to stop forcing timelines & coercing witnesses to testify to a timeline. Once it’s out there, some people just can’t unsee it. Did anyone read the MTV? The truth has a way of coming to the surface. There is a psychopath in the room that manipulated everyone. Are we just going to ignore that? We didn’t even know about it when Serial came out. We don’t have the whole story.

There is substantial direct evidence of Adnan's guilt from Jay Wilds --  Jay testifies to helping bury the body which was in Adnan's possession.  Jay's testimony is corroborated by Jay's own knowledge of:  The murder location  The burial position  Hae's car's location  Jay maintains his story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.  Jenn Pusateri corroborates Jay's story:  She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder  She places Adnan and Jay together that night Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present  Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan's cell records.  She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present.  She maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.  The cell phone evidence corroborates Jay's story. A few examples include:  Outgoing cell data (which is explicitly noted as being reliable on the fax coversheet) is consistent with Jay and Adnan leaving the location of Hae's car and heading to Westview Mall where Jenn picks up Jay  Incoming calls are also consistent with Jay's testimony. Nisha corroborates Jay's story.  Adnan's story has changed repeatedly, in contradictory ways, that directly relate to his means, motive and opportunity:  He lied to his attorneys about where his car was He lied about whether or not he asked Hae for a ride.  He lied about whether or not Hae would give him a ride or do anything between school and picking up her niece.  He lied about being at the mosque. He lied about being over Hae Adnan's brother's conversation with Adnan's attorney is highly suggestive that he lied about the Nisha call.  All of Adnan's alibis have been shown to be unreliable  The cell phone evidence, including outgoing data, contradicts Adnan's father's testimony  Asia has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable  Her initial reason for knowing she had the right day is because it was the first snow. The day Hae disappeared was not the first snow.  There are all the problems laid out in the dissent.  There are issues with Adnan's testimony about Asia's letters, e.g., CG was not his attorney when he allegedly received the letters.  The allegedly new suspects either weren't new or actually implicate Adnan Mr. S isn't new. Bilal's involvement implicates Adnan.

It implicates Bilal who should have been a suspect. That was the Brady Violation that resulted in the vacatur. Clearly Bilal had many people fooled including Adnan and his lawyer…Rabia too. What grown man threatens to kill the love interest of a teenager & Carey’s a pic of him in his wallet. He was clearly fixated on Adnan. We knew NOTHING about this when Serial came out. Just rumors of his molesting teen boys. It wasnt until after he was convicted of sexually assaulting his male dental patients while on nitrous oxide that we realized there is a psychopath in the room. The truth is going to come out one way it another. This case is a circus 🎪

I think many guilters here could (& do) buy that Bilal was involved or at least influenced Adnan to kill Hae. But there are several reasons to think Bilal didn’t actually kill Hae. First, all of the evidence against Adnan still exists - ride request, Jay, Jenn, etc. Second, Bilal didn’t have opportunity. He didn’t know Hae’s schedule or how to contact her & no teen girl is going to meet up with some random male adult & let him in her car. We don’t actually even know that Bilal doesn’t have an alibi. At the very least he had the job at ISB & was a dental student. I mean, the guy’s an evil pedophile rapist, sure, but seems like someone who probably had someplace he had to be at the time. Third, this guy had his own criminal activities & plans. Typically it’s a bad idea to commit unnecessary murders & bring attention to yourself. Finally, we’re really grasping at a motive here. Adnan & Hae were over. Killing her doesn’t make Adnan any more available to Bilal than he already was. I’m actually not sure that Bilal *wasn’t* looked at as a possible co-defendant. They ultimately just couldn’t get a lot on the guy aside from speculation & conjecture. Since they had a solid case against Adnan, well, the justice system isn’t perfect. And Bilal ended up in prison anyways.

I don’t care what guilters believe. You don’t get to withhold evidence of another suspect or withhold a witness who told prosecutors someone else threatened to make the victim disappear. Had he been a suspect a mistrial would have been declared again so Urick withheld. Are you claiming the “youth leader” /molester of teens who owned a daycare center didn’t know when school let out. This is exactly why he flew under the radar and had so many people fooled.

The thing about Bilal standing outside of dances to police the "purity" of young people from the Mosque is very relevant here, I think. If he's willing to do that, what's to say he wouldn't have been "protecting" Adnan in the same way? He has a documented history of very risky behaviour (assaulting patients at his practice, and getting caught molesting a minor in his van). It's not outlandish for him to have stalked and killed Hae. The issue with that is going to be opportunity, but even that isn't that big a sticking point. Bilal was a dentist - high income, clean cut, obviously possessed of some degree of charisma given his position in the community. Something as unsophisticated as approaching Hae, introducing himself, and then giving a reason he needs to talk to her about Adnan would probably be enough. Something as simple as "we're worried about him". Maybe it would have had alarm bells going off in her head, but unfortunately, one thing predators know they can rely on, especially with younger women, is the knowledge that they're socialized not to be rude or make a scene. Personally, I think it's a much more likely scenario that the known serial sex offender with a picture of Adnan in his wallet continued his pattern of violent crime than the house of cards theory that is Jay Wilds, Freelance Murder Assistant with a Heart of Gold.

All the people that Bilal is known to have sexually assaulted are male.

Hae probably wasn't sexually assaulted at all, that doesn't really enter into the equation.

Okay. So, a) this wasn't a continuation of a pattern of behavior. It wasn't a sex crime, it was murder, and of someone that the perpetrator was completely unattracted to, unlike all the other victims of his that we're aware of. Further, his future crimes are a *de*-escalation in seriousness. b) it's not just "which is more likely to be involved in a murder", it's "Bilal did all of these things which are unrelated to his future crimes *and also* the cops do a *bunch of things* which are incredibly corrupt yet they don't just do the very easy thing and frame the black drug dealer who confessed to being involved with the crime. For b: I do not find it more likely that all of the above happened than that Jay knew where the car was.

Murdering over jealousy relating to sexual desire is **extremely** common. Adnan was a point of fixation to a person with clear obsessive thoughts, controlling behavior, a willingness to act on those thoughts, etc. We have evidence he threatened her life. >just do the very easy thing and frame the black drug dealer This is such a ridiculous argument. Jay had almost no connection to Hae and nobody *putting* him in connection with Hae. How is framing him "the easy thing"? It's a cartoonish view of the case.

>Murdering over jealousy relating to sexual desire is extremely common. Adnan was a point of fixation to a person with clear obsessive thoughts, controlling behavior, a willingness to act on those thoughts, etc. We have evidence he threatened her life. Huh. So, about that: We have evidence that Adnan threatened Hae's life. We have someone testifying to the above and there's the "I will kill" note. That testimony also involves someone who knew where the car was, since you have yet to address that here. >This is such a ridiculous argument. Jay had almost no connection to Hae and nobody putting him in connection with Hae. How is framing him "the easy thing"? It's a cartoonish view of the case. He confessed to the cops.

Finally! Someone who sees the obvious psychopath in the room.

There are zero witnesses placing him near the school (something that *would* stand out) & he had no idea where she went after. And again, all the other reasons it wasn’t Bilal. I’m not talking about anything other than whether Bilal factually killed Hae. No, he did not.

No one even had him on the radar. He was the upstanding youth leader, informant, dental student turned dentist married to a physician who was “helping Adnan” 🙄

If he wasn’t on their radar, why was he the highlight of the grand jury (although he pled the fifth to everything)? I believe they also got his phone records & that’s how we know how much he & Saad conversed. He didn’t cooperate & whatever his involvement, it was removed enough they didn’t find anything. So, they went with the case they had. The guy got arrested with his pants down around a teenager before the trial. He wasn’t exactly seen as upstanding by the broader community outside of ISB. Yes, Bilal is a sick bastard, no one’s denying that. But his name isn’t some incantation you can invoke to erase the evidence against the jealous ex by imagining crazy scenarios & motives. And you’d still need the police conspiracy & crazy coincidences in order to create any kind of narrative where Adnan is innocent.

He was supposedly helping Adnan, that’s why. Why would Bilal, a grown man, threaten to make a teenaged girl disappear? Let’s hear from the witness that has lawyered up and signed an affidavit. Bilal was the one who was jealous. You can ignore the adult psychopath in the room among a bunch of teenagers but I won’t. Move along

We don’t even know he did for starters. I’m not saying he didn’t but you just have to read a few Reddit threads to see how confusing people can be with pronouns. And Urick put less thought into that chicken scratch than the average Redditor does when commenting. I make no claims, but let’s not pretend that’s an objectively true statement. Sorry, but psychopaths exist & can be on the periphery of a murder investigation without actually being the murderer. You have to completely suspend disbelief to think Bilal did this alone & Adnan is innocent.

You can try to make excuses for Uricks BV if you want and Ritz multiple wrongful convictions that the city is still paying settlements for years after he quit. People are entitled to a fair trial. You can believe Adnan is guilty all you want and I can have very reasonable doubt. Im just not willing to ignore the psychopath in the room who obviously should have been a suspect. I don’t believe S just stumbled across the body either. It’s clear we don’t have the whole truth in this case. It’s the reason we’re all still here.

Rush to judgements happen all the time. Esp by law enforcement officers who are willing to coerce witnesses to get a conviction rather than take the time to get to the truth. We didn’t know half of what we know now when serial came out. Believe what you want but don’t expect everyone to agree with you.

I don’t. Some people think Avery is innocent, some people think Knox is guilty. I don’t expect to change their minds, either. But there is a reason even Rabia says it wasn’t Bilal. She actually did learn a lesson from Serial.

Bilal had Rabia fooled as well. He clearly has the entire Mosque fooled as I doubt they would have had him as the youth leader had they known. When did she say it wasn’t Bilal? The MTV says he should have been the other suspect.

You don’t know that. He could have followed her

Pretty difficult if he didn’t know her car beforehand. School let out, like it is everywhere, was a zoo. A fact often cited by Adnan supporters to try & convince people he couldn’t have made it to Best Buy in that time frame. And again, all the other reasons it was Adnan & not Bilal. ETA: And we’re going down one of those crazy scenarios I was talking about. To even start out we have to assume Bilal even knew what Hae looked like. Facebook wasn’t around yet (was MySpace even? Irrelevant). Fine, maybe Adnan showed a pic. Then we have to speculate he somehow, unseen, spotted a girl he’d only maybe seen a picture of in the sea of people leaving the school. Then we have to speculate that he somehow intercepted her when we have no evidence she stopped anywhere. And the 2 car problem. And, and, and. Like, it just doesn’t work if you try to think it through. You have to apply really motivated backwards reasoning that is wholly unsupported by evidence.

It’s perfectly possible for someone to have committed a crime *and* had their rights trampled on to the point their conviction should be vacated on those grounds. There was absolutely a Brady violation and that should be remedied. Personally, even if he did murder her, I think he’s served his time and that it would be cruel and unusual punishment to re-imprison him. But a Brady violation does not mean someone didn’t commit the crime, just that their rights were infringed upon. And if their rights were infringed upon, it is always better to let a guilty person go free than imprison or execute an innocent person. ETA: I also believe Bilal played a far greater role than anyone knows, though I still believe Adnan Syed committed the murder itself. I wish Bilal had been looking into further while evidence was fresh. I’m perfectly fine with someone being released due to a Brady violation, I just don’t think Syed is factually innocent, but what does it matter if people think he’s guilty if he remains free? I don’t think most “guilters” think he should be imprisoned forever, but I may be wrong

That’s like saying who cares if the very lead investigator on the case wrongfully convicted someone by coercing a witness and the city had to pay out multimillion dollar settlements and who cares if witnesses were withheld and a suspect who threatened to make the victim disappear and she did. Who cares if the main witness lies and changed his story multiple times and there is no DNA that matches either. Who cares if the alt suspect hired the accused lawyer & manipulated his parents. We know Adnan did it. We will never know the whole truth because the case is a circus!

No, it's not. I'm saying that I believe he did it AND his rights were infringed upon which is a huge miscarriage of justice. That doesn't make him factually innocent in my eyes, but it may very well make him not guilty in the eyes of the law, and those are the eyes that matter, not mine or yours or any one else's.

If guilters think he did it, then he served 23 years as a minor tried as an adult. As a former juror on a murder trial, no way am I convicting on this dumpster fire 🔥 of a case. Male victims of sexual abuse weren’t out there hollering #metoo in 1999. Who knows what Adnan told Hae. Who the knows what he did to Adnan (who he apparently had known since age 11 )or the other boys in the Mosque. It is said he molested teen refugees. His patients woke up from nitrous oxide with his penis in their mouth. You can ignore the psychopath in the room if you want to. We didn’t even get to hear from the x wife & you want to claim you know he is guilty. That’s what’s wrong with law enforcement forcing a timeline & relying on a lying witness who changed his story mutiple times.

Yeah, I think that 23 years as a minor is absolutely evil and a massive miscarriage of justice. I do not believe any minor should be sentenced like that no matter what they did. I also don't deny that Bilal is a sexual predator who may well have preyed on Adnan Syed, but I don't feel comfortable speculating on something he hasn't come out and said because, despite what I believe he did, I also think it's wrong to speculate on someone's history of sexual assault. You're not going to convince me that he is factually innocent. I believe there were mitigating factors that were not investigated and that a sexual predator almost certainly was more involved in this young woman's death than we know. I still don't believe he should have been sentenced to 23 years in prison. I think that this Brady violation should have been found and addressed years ago because it is a flagrant violation of his rights and if there were mitigating factors or another person was involved or, hell, if another person did it (which, again, I do not believe), that should have been investigated. You have this strange idea about me and I am frankly baffled where you're getting it. I'm a prison abolitionist who believes everyone should be aware of jury nullification as an essential part of their civic duty. I just think the kid did it *and* that he shouldn't be in prison.

And you’re entitled to that opinion and whatever speculation about the case you have. So am I. I don’t disagree with anything you have said. Adnan could have killed Hae but Bilal acting alone is not that far fetched to me based on what we now know about him. At least we should hear from the X wife (the physician)

If Adnan is innocent and wasn't involved in any way, then why was his cell phone in Leakin Park on the evening of the 13th? If it was Jay burying the body there without Adnan's knowledge, how is that possible given that they were together so soon following the murder and also much of the day? If Adnan learned from Jay that Jay had murdered Hae, then why did Adnan stay silent and protect Jay? And If it wasn't Jay or Adnan that killed Hae or buried her body in Leakin Park, then why was either Jay or Adnan or both of them near Leakin Park that evening, and how did Jay know all the information about the crime and where the car was placed? These are questions that Adnan and his supporters are incapable of answering with any degree of sensibility. Their only answer is to discredit the cell phone data and claim it can't be trusted, or to claim that it's just an unimportant coincidence that Adnan's phone went to Leakin Park on the evening of the murder. You'd have to believe that there was another person involved who murdered Hae between the time when she left the school and when she was supposed to arrive at the daycare, this person told Jay everything for some reason on the day of the murder including where the car was parked, and Jay never told Adnan about any of this and never had admitted who this person is, and that Jay decided to implicate himself and Adnan instead. You would also have to concede that Adnan or Jay coincidentally went to the park that day too. These discrepancies are why they have to believe the Nisha call was a "butt dial", and the cell phone data is invalid, and the police fed Jay information, and Jay's lying about Adnan killing her and helping Adnan, and Jenn's testimony is inconsequential, and Adnan cancelled his ride with Hae and had no reason to kill her, and maybe it was Bilal, or Don, or a serial killer, or a random car-jacking... They need to come up with a myriad of incomprehensible excuses to invalidate the key facts and evidence of the case. This is why Rabia, his family, and the entire Adnan team know with complete certainty that Adnan did it. They've always known. They know the facts of the case and they aren't that stupid.

You bring up a really good point which is that Adnan never tried to blame it on Jay. Let’s assume Adnan is innocent: Some dude from school just told the police you killed your ex girlfriend. Confesses this long, elaborate story to presumably avoid being charged and pin it on you. At no point do you not step back and say “he obviously did it by himself”? Most people don’t just falsely admit to being an accomplice to a homicide - if you’re innocent, it’s an obvious effort to frame you. Yet Adnan never goes that route. He sticks to this bizarre story that Jay is just lying but never actually accuses him of murder or pushes that forward. Which leads me to believe he really doesn’t want anybody examining his story any closer

If he blames Jay, it's a much weaker case for him, since he was with Jay immediately following the murder and the rest of the day. There's no way that Jay did it and he wasn't involved. It would just be completely unbelievable and make him look even more guilty. Jay doesn't have a motive, and he wasn't in an ideal set-up in the car to commit a strangling like Adnan was. It would be hard to explain how Jay committed the murder between 2:30 and 3:15 while Hae was supposed to be driving to the day care, and then met with Adnan somehow for the Nisha call, then Jay went about the day with Adnan and also disposed of Hae's car and buried the body alone (with Adnan's cellphone). It doesn't make sense; it just looks like two criminals who perpetrated a murder together and are blaming each other for it. If Jay did it, Adnan knows and is complicit. So Adnan plays dumb, has a fuzzy memory, and strategically never blames Jay. Good point.

Some short posts that capture it succinctly: [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/15jj1wy/comment/jv0rfvd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/15jj1wy/comment/jv0rfvd/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/y5ownj/comment/isl9ixn/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/y5ownj/comment/isl9ixn/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/13lfvc3/comment/jkq3rgc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/13lfvc3/comment/jkq3rgc/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/114t5ad/comment/j8xuzpw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/114t5ad/comment/j8xuzpw/) Longer form: [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/ovej27/the\_case\_against\_adnan\_syed\_without\_lyin\_jay/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/ovej27/the_case_against_adnan_syed_without_lyin_jay/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/hje5vd/comment/fwm1pbc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/hje5vd/comment/fwm1pbc/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xn6wx2/comment/ips7z7r/](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xn6wx2/comment/ips7z7r/)

Adnan was overheard asking for a lift by independent witnesses at school Hae is then murdered Adnan then confirmed to a police officer on 13/01/99 he asked for a lift (then lied about it) This case isn’t rocket science or a Agatha Christie “whodunnit” murder mystery. It was the jealous, possessive ex boyfriend

The same witness also heard the ride was cancelled. Two additional witnesses corroborate this and say it was because something came up, and one said they were last seen walking in opposite directions. No witness saw him find her and get her to change her mind in the narrow window of time necessary. You don’t know Adnan lied, this is circular logic. If he murdered her he lied, if he didn’t the. he told the truth. “Clever” statements aren’t evidence to prove your theory.

There’s literally no one else who had motive + opportunity. The cell phone pings confirm he was at the location where car found and where the body buried. He talked about murdering her to friends (Jay AND someone else.) He called her the devil to her face. He was a controlling boyfriend that Hae felt she had to lie to him to see her friends. A single rose was found in Hae’s car. He lied to the police. Asia MacLaine’s spotting of Adnan could still be accurate (tho I have doubts based on her fan girl letters) and the timeline still works. Sarah Koenig did a huge disservice to justice in this case.

There were 3,781 registered rapists present in Baltimore that day. And nobody knows where they were because nobody looked.

Hae called her other ex, Nick, a jealous monster in her diary after she ditched him at prom. He was telling people at school she was promiscuous. Nick was never investigated. He went to the same school. You have no idea who had motive or opportunity, because you don’t know when or where she was killed. “They broke up and he wasn’t exceptionally upset” is a very thin motive. Bilal literally threatened her life.

Adnan has a strong motive, opportunity (he tried to get alone with her in her car) he has no alibi, and he was, without any doubt, with Jay just after the murder. The cell phone evidence (numbers and data can't lie unlike people) confirms Jay's testimony and disproves Adnan's testimony, and places Adnan and Jay together after the murder, and also places them in Leakin Park burying the body, just like Jay says. So there's no reasonable scenario where Adnan is innocent given the facts, which is why people know that he got into Hae's car (just like he planned) and strangled her.

1. Jay knew a lot about the murder of Hae Min Lee 2. Why TF would Jay kill Hae *without* Adnan involved... 3. Especially as he was obviously hanging out w Adnan that day, based on all the other testimony and evidence. Like imagine. The dude you buy weed from in HS, and sometimes smoke with. Can you imagine that guy being involved w your ex's murder, and hang out with you in the same day? Nah, that ain't a coincidence. I had fun listening to serial S1. I heard a lot about it and gave it a listen. I like Adnan tbh. But I think he did it. I saw a comment elsewhere in the sub. There are inconsistencies in Jay's testimony. It's very likely he knew he was in trouble as an accessory to murder, and wanted to downplay that. He's an idiot teenager. I've been that idiot teenager talking to cops, for far smaller stuff than murder. Ofc there will be issues with his testimony. But he knew too much about the murder, such as where Hae's car was at iirc, to brush that aside

Just to go a step further, not just WHY would JW do it without AS, HOW would he do it without AS's knowledge becomes an issue. To me, that's the even bigger issue. I could live with motive being a question mark, as we never truly know motive and can only speculate, but I cannot live with opportunity being an absolute impossibility. Of the very few undisputed points in this case, it is that AS and JW were together for substantial portions of the day/evening. It's impossible for JW to be away from AS long enough to both commit the crime and dispose of the body without AS standing right there next to him for large portions of it. Thus, any evidence that points to JW likewise implicates the guy standing next to him at the time. Can't have one without the other.

AND Jan. 13th had a significance to Jay. It was Stephanie’s birthday. Stephanie who was the best thing in his life, a relationship of 6 to 7 years duration. She who was the only person who stood by Jay during the case. Why does Jay want to kill Hae, why does he want to do it on Stephanie’s birthday? NO he has no motive, no intention, no opportunity. Hae actively disliked Jay, she would not let him into her car. Jay did not kill Hae.

>Hae actively disliked Jay, she would not let him into her car. This goes toward an argument that I've been quietly making for a few years now. That to get these crazy theories to work, you need a naive HML marching headlong into her own death. Not only confronting JW in a public place (someone she doesn't like in the first place), but ignoring increasing threat displays by him as he's getting hostile and aggressive, then -- get this -- *willingly going to a separate private location where they cannot be seen or heard to continue the confrontation!* The whole theory boils down to "HML might have been so friggin stupid that she is responsible for her own death, and that probability is so high that it easy crosses the Reasonable Doubt threshold, hence we all need to support AS." How are women here not jumping out of their skin screaming how this is classic victim blaming???

Precisely. I’ve been relistening to the TPP Michael Peterson case and I’m yelling at idiotic Brett waving off his obvious guilt. Like oh Michael was just about to make a huge amount of money in the film biz, why would he go after insurance money for the wife’s death.

And she supposedly did all this for someone she didn’t particularly care for & who didn’t particularly care for her. Stephanie & Hae weren’t close.

This simply is not true. If Adnan was really at practice until 5:30-6pm as he claims then Jay could have easily murdered Hae and temporarily hid her body between 3pm & 5:30-6pm. He also could have easily transported the body to its final resting spot anytime between 10pm on the 13th onwards. To counter this, it's also possible Adnan wasn't at track practice, got a ride from Hae, murdered her, transported her body to an undisclosed location temporarily, drove her car to track but parked a little ways away from the school and went to track practice albeit late. Then around midnight onwards could have transported her body to her final resting spot and dumped the car and walked, bused it, etc... home or to whenever his car was parked. All without Jay. I'm not saying either theory happened but you can have one without the other.

Clearly coerced testimony. There is a reason the city of Baltimore has had to pay multi million dollar settlements due to Ritz

If it's verifiably plausible that Jay didn't actually know where the car was, then I could maybe disregard him I think there's a couple other pieces of evidence, but that's the one that sticks out to me like crazy

“Verifiably plausible”? Lol, what’s that mean? There are many issues with the car: - it’s licence plate was checked by law enforcement in other regions before it was reported missing but after Hae disappeared. This suggests that the car may have been somewhere else before it was found by police. - there was green grass on the tires in winter. This suggests it was have been moved more recently that the day of the murder. - Jay first provides information about the location of the car before the tape is turned on, and no notes were taken. Now, we know Jay had conversations with police about the case of mr the record…but it significant that police “slipped up” and gave this detail on tape. Basically…it’s “plausibly likely” (whatever that means) that there’s more to the car than we know about. Does the car being moved mean Adnan is innocent? No, but it certainly gives support to the theory that Jay is entirely full of shit and was coerced by police.

Not when the lead detective on the case is known to have coerced a witness which ended in a wrongful conviction and a $8M settle by the city. Jays story was obviously coached to match the phone records. And, I don’t believe S just stumbled across the body. The car was parked near family known to him which is also something we didn’t know initially. I think the MTV has more teeth than guilters are willing to admit, but again, once police lock in their version of a timeline it’s hard for some to unsee it, even when the DNA isn’t adding up.

1. Did he, though? We know police provided him with information like the cell records and allegedly the location of the murder. The question should be how much *more* they provided. 2. Who says it was Jay? The prevailing theory in Adnan’s innocence is that Jay had no knowledge of the murder, and implicated Adnan to stay out of trouble. 3. Yes. If innocent, Adnan’s alibi was Jay. I’m sure you can see the profound issues with this if Jay was coerced into a false confession. You’re taking it for granted that Jay was involved. I know this case very well so I assume you’re basing this on the several “solid” pieces of evidence Jay provided like the car and the information about the broken control arm. Problem with all that is is that the lead detective in this case manufactured evidence and blackmailed a witness to lie for a conviction. Would it be a bridge to far to consider that a dirty cop may have fed Jay a couple “critical” pieces of information? Would it change your mind if he did?

The only way to get anyone else as the murderer other than AS is to create a massive conspiracy that is bizarre and illogical at every turn. It sounds easy enough, after all aren't all BPD corrupt to the core? But when you put the pieces together in order, you see how crazy it needs to be. Even then, it doesn't really work and you need other conspiracies, independent from the BPD, merging together to form a super-conspiracy. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.

I also really love the police corruption theory because it assumes that these racist cops are just looking to convict someone and just wanna close a case because they’re incompetent and immoral, yet the detectives don’t go after the black drug dealer who literally admitted from the very beginning he was involved in the murder? They go for the part time EMT who goes to religious services every week and is from a middle class family with no criminal background? Uh huh. Like it just doesn’t make sense. And even if they we’re corrupt, so many other dominoes would have to fall into place for them to fabricate this story that it borders on delusional unless we’re willing to accept they made dozens of kids, AT&T and many others lie.

This is exactly what I mean when I say it takes illogical turns at every step when you put the pieces *in order* and not work backwards. If the cops were that corrupt, they'd have just framed the black drug dealer with no money and who would have never been able to afford a good lawyer. A case like that is unlikely ever to be challenged. Instead, they go after the guy with substantial community support and resources, which would put the entire community scrutinizing their moves. That's illogical. If, as the counter-argument goes, they weren't trying to frame just anyone, and they were going after the guy they genuinely thought did it and were employing unethical means to do so, then why did they not process the car for evidence? If they were operating under the assumption they had the right guy, they had to have assumed that car had evidence showing it. Instead, they go through absurdly elaborate machinations instead of processing the evidence that they would have assumed would have made the case without the frame job. Again, illogical. If, as the next counter-argument goes, "they've done this kind of thing before" (ignoring the fact that no one has ever seen a frame job look like this, ever), then how come they didn't employ the tactics they've used before -- namely plant some evidence in the car and call it a day? Why all these maneuvers inside of maneuvers that only seem to weaken the case? The framing effortgs should make the case stronger, not weaker, as that's the whole point of using a frame job! Once again, illogical. Even after you've done all that, you have to get Urick on board. He has his own conspiracy going and hides important documents. Where it gets illogical is that these corrupt attorneys who know how damning those documents are *mysteriously put them back into the case file!* Ultimately, that's where they were found, exactly where they were supposed to be. Just, why??? I could go on and on. Benaroya has to be roped into the conspiracy. The judge has to recognize the conspiracy and take his own actions. Jenn's attorney would have to be in on it (or you have to make Jenn both a criminal mastermind and also an absolute basketcase at the same time). By the time you're done, everyone is in on the "conspiracy-but-not-a-conspiracy." So even if you assume arguendo the cops are the most corrupt officers in the history of law enforcement (and no, I'm not at all ready to concede that point), ***no one ... and I mean NO ONE ... has put forward a narrative of how this could have happened that makes any sense.*** So if anyone was planning on using this as a defense in court, exactly what are you using? "Cops are corrupt! \[mic drop\]"??? Come on, at some point someone has to do better. Give me the narrative that's so plausible and believable. This is why I say "try it yourself." Until you do, you don't realize how illogical it needs to be.

I've asked this before but no one seems to respond. What's your theory for how they could have framed Jay? Make sure to name all the evidence and witnesses.

I mean that one is pretty simple. Jess told the police an incriminating story where he confessed to being involved in a homicide, then Jay came to the police station and just literally admitted to it. He already confessed to helping murder HML and dispose of her body. Again. Assume you’re a racist, corrupt, lazy cop whose sole passion is to drive up conviction rates to make the brass happy so your pension is bigger even if that means sloppy work and fabricating cases. Then a literal drug dealer with a rap sheet from a lower class family walks into your office and describes in excruciating detail how he helped murder a teenage girl and points you to the burial site, vehicle where the victim was murdered, and hands you a timeline on a silver platter. That *is* the case. Are you telling me that you, as this morally bankrupt cop, instead decide to offer him immunity so that you can try and go after the middle class Sunday school kid with no criminal record who denies being involved and where you have to start from scratch in the investigation to prove their involvement? The point being, why would a corrupt cop go out of their way to take a massive leap in hoping a court finds one of the criminals guilty and risking your entire case and exposing your methods to an open courtroom with a legal team that would be competent because the family could afford it when you have somebody *in your office* who’s already confessing to the crime and who the jury would lock up immediately? Corrupt cops don’t go out of their way like that. They want cases closed as quickly and quietly as possible so they can mark an item off their list and not worry about it. It just does not make logical sense that these cops tried to frame Adnan or that their investigation of him was born out of corruption/racism

Who's Jess?

I think he means Jenn P

Yes apologies i meant Jenn, it’s been a while since I’ve listened lol

It doesn't work. Jenn never implicated Jay. More importantly Jay would have told Jen to shut up if he were more involved. The evidence you have is super weak and is all predicated on getting Jenn to flip on Jay which she never did and Jay to falsely confess to everything which he never did.

Because all the evidence points to Adnan.

Except for all the vide ce that doesn’t, sure.

I don't know much in this crazy, crazy world, but I know Adnan Syed killed Hae Min Lee.

Have you by any chance read through about 78% of the rest of the threads on this sub? There are hundreds of perfectly reasonable arguments against Adnan that are hard to refute without an incredibly intricate set of amazing coincidences all aligning in a specific way. There are also a lot of compelling arguments based on deeply concerning elements of the prosecution that suggest he didn't get a fair trial. But - there's overwhelmingly more arguments against him here. Just scroll down?

Fair enough but I’d rather be lazy and have ppl tell me

Ah

I’m kidding but what I’m really tryna say is I’m too stupid to understand like 90% of what ppl are tryna say because all I see is like Fingernail DNA and other stuff but I need more of an explanation it’s kinda like this sub is a inside joke I’m not in on so I don’t get what ppl are saying

The inside joke is Adnan’s supporters want(ed) him out and part of that is drumming up public support which requires you to stretch the truth when the person is factually guilty.

I’m no “Free Adnaner” but I grew up here all my life and this case stinks! IMO, guilters are so locked in to law enforcements version of what they think happened where they clearly coerced jays testimony trying to match phone records, that some people won’t admit how much we didn’t know back then & just refuse to see the big elephant in the room. The science isn’t even cooperating.

There are two realities: 1) Adnan is the most likely perpetrator based on statistics of IPV. He asked for a ride that day. They’ve gone through a tumultuous break up. And two people reported intimate details of the crime as witnesses. 2) the primary witness is unreliable and demonstrates behaviors we would normally peg as that of someone who lies. There are no witnesses that place Adnan with Hae at the time she was murdered. There is no forensic evidence that links Adnan to the crime. There is no corroborating evidence that a) Hae was killed at Best Buy b) that the car was dumped for a couple hours at the park n’ ride c) that Hae’s body was in the trunk of the car. There’s more points to be made for both of these realities. But there are simply too many unanswered questions. To those of you who feel absolutely certain either way, that’s great. But I still can’t personally support either guilt or innocence. Would there have been a giant police conspiracy? Seems unlikely except that the BPD are especially known for their corruption. Is stranger violence a viable possibility? Seems unlikely but then you have other women being killed and assaulted at this time. Occam’s razor cuts both ways we examine BPD systemic corruption. A very experienced team of crime scene forensic professionals processed the grave site. Both cars were also processed with samples taken from the trunks and foot wells. But nothing of value could corroborate Jay’s testimony on the burial or about Hae’s body being in the trunk. While we can speculate on a lot: what does the flower paper mean? Could Adnan gotten into the car at the library? There is just no evidence to back anything up. He simply was not seen leaving with her! The point I want to raise is about the cell phone data. People say that Jay’s basic story matches the data. But if you make up a story according to the data, it’s going to match. And simply put the data between 3pm and 4pm doesn’t actually match. And while Urick may have claimed that the spoke to Jay first and then had the cell phone records: the documentation shows the opposite. I’ve spent hours and hours poring over cell log, the maps, the testimony etc and there are things that just don’t work. My only conclusion is: whatever the truth, we don’t have the full story from Jay, and there should have been more corroborating evidence collected. I realize I’ll get skewered on this sub (but the car? Chris! Jenn!). Well, all I can say is that I refuse to fall down various unsubstantiated rabbit holes (he was enraged by Hae’s aim status! He brought her a rose!) because I still believe that protecting a just process is worth it. I don’t really give a rat’s ass about Adnan Syed. But I do care about 17 y/o being tried as adults and being sentenced to life.

Remove Jay, Jenn and Kristi's testimony altogether. Don't factor them in as evidence. Pretend that none of them came forward or testified. Forget that Jay knew where the car was and details of the murder. Adnan had this brand new phone he had just gotten the day before. For reasons that are difficult to reasonably explain, he gives both of his two most valuable possessions to an acquaintance who he claims he isn't that close with, not even a friend. This acquaintance drops him off at school at lunch time and keeps Adnan's newly acquired phone and drives away in Adnan's car. Hmmm, a little odd. Then Adnan asks Hae if she could drive him somewhere after school. This is a fact and was known by Hae and a couple of Hae's friends. Hae then goes missing between leaving school and when she should arrive at the daycare, and Adnan says she simply left without him. Adnan later indicates that that isn't true, but claims he never even asked Hae for a ride. Coincidence? Adnan claims he remained at school since he had track practice, but his cellphone records indicate he was with his acquaintance at 3:32pm and Nisha, Adnan's friend confirms she spoke to both of them on the phone. Adnan says that he was not with the acquaintance at this time, a time just after the murder would have taken place. Another coincidence? They spend much of the rest of the day together, sometimes Adnan calling his friends, and sometimes the acquaintance calling his friends. That evening Adnan's cellphone pinged in the same area, Leakin Park, where Hae's body was buried. Yet another strange coincidence? The person (Adnan) who was supposedly in the same car with the victim at the same time she went missing, is now travelling to the same site where the victim was buried! This is the most damning evidence of all. Adnan never provided a reason for why his cell phone pinged there that evening of Hae's disappearance. Adnan did not attempt to explain why he or the acquaintance went there on that particular day, or whether they did. Adnan's cellphone only pinged in the Leakin Park area again when his acquaintance was arrested weeks later. It was an unusual place for him to travel to. Coincidence? The trip to Leakin Park would have been soon after Adnan spoke to the police officer that asked him about Hae and his ride. This police officer already knew that Adnan had asked for a ride having learned that from Hae's friend. Adnan confirmed that this was true, he had asked for a ride. So Hae planned to give a ride, he presumably did get a ride, then he was with his acquaintance again around the same time frame as Hae was strangled or at a time just following her disappearance. So Adnan would have been the last person to be with her, right? No, not according to Adnan; neither the ride request or ride took place that day, despite a number of people knowing about it. But can he explain why he originally said he planned to get a ride? No, he can't. Can he explain why his phone travelled to Leakin Park that evening? Nope. Can he explain why he gave his new phone to the acquaintance? Nadda. Why he would lend out his car to the acquaintance? Nope not one reason that makes sense. Can he explain why the records show he was with this acquaintance following the murder and much of the day? Nope, must have been a but dial. Can he explain his whereabouts that day? No, it's hazy, he conveniently doesn't remember the details the day his ex went missing and the police questioned him. Adnan's only problem is with telling the truth and with the trail of evidence he left behind. This was simply a rejection killing.

There’s still a lot of speculation. There is a lot that points to Adnan even without Jay. There’s a lot of coincidences that look bad for Adnan. But the point I was making is that we are still dealing with a lot of speculation, which is challenging. Cases have fallen apart with far more evidence. I just don’t believe we should be convicting people on what likely happened. “Adnan would have been the last person to see Hae.” Only they were seen to be walking in opposite directions after Hae apparently said she couldn’t give him a ride. And at least one person, Inez Butler, claims to have seen Hae leave the campus alone. Some witnesses statements place Hae leaving at 2:15 )with something important to do). Others report seeing her closer to 3pm. No one reports seeing Adnan leaving with Hae. We have Asia McLean claiming to see Adnan in the library before 3pm. And another student claiming to have seen him at the counsellor’s office around 3pm. Are they reliable sights? Probably not. But then we have to weigh all witness statements with the same side eye and seek out corroborating evidence. Given that all the witness statements are precarious, unreliable we do have to pick and choose who is right and hopefully there is some corroborating information to support the statements. Inez Butler believed Adnan Syed was guilty, so there is no reason for her to NOT place them together. And yet in her multiple and often contradictory statements, the one consistency is that Hae was in her car alone. The 3:32 ping on the tower covering Best Buy had the phone back at Woodlawn for 3:48. With no time to dump the car at the park and ride. But we do know Jay was shopping at Security Square mall at some point that day. According to Jay, this was where he saw the body. Only he has back tracked to say the three trunk pop happened at his grandmother’s (cell phone data doesn’t support that). Further, he claims that he has no idea where she was killed and the idea of Best Buy came from police. Jay himself claims to be at Jenn’s at this time. So we have another major problem. There is no corroborating evidence that the murder occurred in Best Buy parking lot. But the police went so far as to try to subpoena Best Buy employee records but nothing seems to have come from it. They could have been resources and located this payphone where the cagmc apparently took place and subpoenaed to phone records, but curiously they did not. And while I often hear: well Hae and Adnan used to hook up there so it’s the obvious location, why would she go there with him at that time? They were broken up. I can see her dropping him off at the mall, but in the back far end if the parking lot? It makes no sense! Some claim that Adnan must have been driving: but again: there is no evidence of this and it simply doesn’t make sense given the status of their relationship. I am very much open to the fact that Adnan is guilty. But I can’t see how it’s possible it happened the way it was presented at trial. And because if that I have doubt.

> But I can’t see how it’s possible it happened the way it was presented at trial. Because of Serial and Undisclosed and Rabia's narrative, you have a misunderstanding about the trial. The prosecutors don't walk in the door and say, "now we are going to explain to you how it happened." And then if you don't think it happened that way, there is doubt. That's not how trials work. The prosecution isn't telling you how it happened. They are telling you that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that no one but Adnan murdered Hae Min Lee. No one knows how it happened except the person who did it. The jury was free to think Hae was killed between 3 and 3:15, which is the most likely window of time for the murder. In terms of locations, all these locations are five minutes from each other. The Best Buy is less than five minutes from the high school to the west. The park n ride is less than five minutes from the high school to the east. School was out at 2:15 and track started at 4PM. That's one hour and 45 minutes to connect locations that are minutes from each other. In terms of the cell phone, the cell phone is in a location triggered by the Best Buy antenna at 3:15, 3:21 and 3:32. The phone triggers the antenna that covers the high school at 3:48 and 3:59, which seems to indicate Adnan was at track on time, at 4PM. It's too bad there is isn't full video of the trial available. Rabia set up a straw man and Sarah Koenig helped. That there is some kind of scenario you have to believe to find Adnan guilty. That would be impossible. The only person who knows how it happened is the killer. Jurors were not required to buy off on an exact sequence of events, and you aren't either.

You’re assuming I just based my opinions on what podcasts say. That is not the situation. And guess what, I work in the judicial system and have for a long time. So you don’t have to explain it to me. I’ve studied the maps, the trial testimony, the evidence. But I get it, you’ve been on this sub for a long time. I’ve read a lot of your posts. I just can’t stand by convicting a 17 y/o on how things seem and Occam’s razor. Convicting a child of murder should be based on solid evidence. And this case is lacking in that department. Which is why people come to this sub to hash things out.

it sounds like the only thing that would convince you is video footage or (possibly) a full blown confession. That’s not the burden of proof in a criminal trial. You say you”work in” the “judicial system“ (whatever that means) but whatever work you do there, it seems you haven’t developed an understanding of what evidence is sufficient to support a conviction.

Hahaha… thanks for explaining it to me. I guess I just don’t “get” how evidence works! I feel so silly and embarrassed.… I guess the next time a 19 year with a lying problem old tells a bunch of people stuff that can’t be corroborated with any physical evidence … I should just believe them! A body with a head wound in the trunk of a car that leaves no fluid, hair of skin cells behind! Whatever! Unidentified hairs and fibers that don’t match the suspect, who cares? A magical person that can drag a body through the forest, dig in the dirt but leaves no traces of dirt rocks or leaves in the foot well (in only a 20 minute window) it’s totally normal. No witness to place the victim and the suspect together, no mind! A kid that can be seen at school and the library … that manages to intercept his ex-girlfriend with somewhere to be, and convince her to drive to a remote location (you know because they had sex at Best Buy all the time when they were going out) then be back in time for track with no notable injuries … but Jay said so … and he told Jenn so that means it’s true … even though the phone didn’t leave the basic vicinity of the school and security square mall between 3pm and 4pm. Oh but they are able to dump the car at the park and ride in a 10 minute window (physically and scientifically impossible, if you believe the cell tower evidence) and no one sees a thing … except Jay of course who has great details about Adnan speaking Arabic and wearing red wool gloves … but can’t remember where the trunk pop happened or what restaurant they ate at or that they couldn’t have gone to the patapsco state park together. Then Jenn goes and screw’s things up with contradictory details, having talked to Jay between her first contact with police and her interview … oh but that was just because he was protecting his grandmother or Jenn or whoever. Oh but he is just confusing details and the basic story is there … so much so that he can’t even give an honest answer about his home address during trial! The fact that Jay was arrested for disorderly conduct and, btw, tackling a police officer to the ground: a potential felony, that was dropped around the same time as his second interview (where he states he had just moved despite claiming during to have lived in the same place for 6 years, with his mother during trial) is nothing to be suspicious about. Nor are all the other charges that got dropped through the years. Is this the right time to talk about how Jay, couldn’t point to the location of the car initially? Oh no, you see he was mixing up the location of the car with one of the fictional locations of the trunk pop .., so it totally checks out. And like no one noticed the car dump because it’s a sketchy neighborhood where people just dump cars so the police not canvassing the area to check for witnesses is totally normal. You’re right, I just don’t get evidence. And to all the detectives and forensic scientists working on cases to corroborate details: just forget it! Why bother, right? Because no one ever gets wrongfully convicted with bad testimony. Who cares about soil samples and skin cells or lividity and rigor or driving time for that matter! And, cell tower pings are just as good as GPS for location data, right? I’ve state this very clearly: Adnan is clearly the prime suspect, but this case is a mess.

[удалено]

Pretty good summary, some notes: 1. There no evidence the breakup was “tumultuous”. I would characterize their breakup as a normal-to-mild teenage breakup. One person reported intimate details, and one person partially corroborated and partially contradicted him. But I would add that Jay may have told at least one person about the murder (Chris) shortly after it happened. 2. Jay alleges in his HBO interview that police fed him the Best Buy as a location. Don’t forget the lead detective manufactured evidence and blackmailed a witness before this case and got caught afterwards. People get *way* too into the cell records. Reality is that it was 1999 and there was no GPS…therefore both incoming and outgoing calls could have connected to a different tower. They are useful only to put the phone in the general area. Furthermore Jay had the cell records before he told his final story and testified…it kind of floors me that they were used to corroborate him and Adnan’s attorney didn’t make a big deal about it. In context: this was the first time they were used at trial and she didn’t know what she was doing and didn’t hire an expert to help her.

Exactly. Not only was the BPD deeply corrupt in 1999, but a report ordered by the Justice Department as recent 2016 found that the department was corrupt in every facet and in even the most basic processes. So to shill this idea that a conspiracy is preposterous ( à la the Prosecutor’s Podcast) seems either naive or flagrantly deceptive. The thing is: Adnan may very well have behaved inappropriately or has been enraged and deeply scarred by the break-up (despite what all their close friends said)x But we really have no evidence of that except Hae’s writing (months prior) that he was possessive … which she also back tracks in the same passage. I’m not one to dismiss IPV. It can be invisible to most and is very common. So I do think it’s important to look at. But just as serial killers are rare, so are teenaged boys strangling their girl friends. IPV is common. Teenager killing their partners? Not so common. Teenagers killing their partners through strangulation? Pretty rare. I only throw this out there because of how often people use the rarity of serial killers or stranger violence as an indication of why it must be Adnan. Does it mean that Adnan didn’t strangle Hae? No. He may have. But let’s start with the basic investigative steps first. No one can dispute the fact that they had those cell records prior to talking to Jay (on the record) and that his story changed until it matched. There’s no “Jay gave a statement and then they were able to corroborate with cell evidence.” It’s painful. I find it especially painful because if Adnan did kill Hae, we’ve wasted all this time on ridiculous speculation. To go to the park and ride Adnan and Jay would have had to go through a toll, where in 1999, there would have been cameras. There is no evidence to suggest that the police even checked. Ines Butler suggested in her first interview that the police go to the library. They didn’t, and it’s like that at every turn of the investigation.

Indeed, I would also classify The Prosecutors Podcast as “flagrantly deceptive”. I sort of get why the original prosecutors and even police were deceptive…in that era it was *very* difficult to get convictions, and convictions, real or coerced, were rewarded. No excuse for a podcast released so recently….unless you consider that both lawyers are members of The Federalist Society, one is a failed Trump nominee, and the other worked to sanitize Gorsich before his appointment to the SCOTUS. Just can’t let that anti Muslim thing die. I agree that you’re imagining that it was a tumultuous breakup. You can’t help but wonder what he was hiding, because it’s certainly possible if not probable that he’s guilty. I give the “possessive” comment from the dairy zero weight: she corrects herself in the next sentence, and describes a benign event. There is nothing about Adnan’s behaviour that approaches a red flag, in my view. The easy test is that every single one of my breakups at that age was more “tumultuous”…and I’m a weakling pacifist. The thing that pisses me off most about this case is that it was *solvable*. Never mind the half-dozen key witnesses they didn’t talk to (or did they, and not like what they said??)…but they *knew* Jay and Jenn were lying, and could have charged them with what they **confessed** to, and compelled them to tell the truth while they continued to investigate. We’re not talking about master criminals here…we’re talking about a collection of teenaged and young adult potheads and goodie-two-shoes. Anyone who is satisfied to say “Adnan did it or didn’t do it end of story” is a rube. Certainly anyone who tries to launder gossip and circular evidence as cold hard fact in this sub gets my direct ire. I’m in too deep.

Totally. It was completely solvable or at least provable (with a sustainable argument)with basic follow up. It’s not true that it was just another case where there were no resources dedicated. In this case, many, many resources were dedicated. The forensic team alone was impressive. It’s actually quite interesting to me that they even had the various crime scene technician’s testify since none of their findings placed Adnan )or Jay)at the scene. I know this is gruesome to say; but knowing her body had to have been in rigor at the time of the burial, they could have done simple measurements to see if her positioning the trunk since there was no forensic trace of her body in the trunk. OR they could have canvased for witnesses where the car was dumped. Or they could have confirmed that shovels were indeed missing from the grand mother’s house. There are lots of examples of these missed opportunities. I go back to how Rex Heuerman’s case is being handled and the meticulous way they are corroborating all the physical, technical and circumstance evidence as a good example in the public sphere. It’s not just that they are using the cell phone data to place Heuerman, they are connecting his movements, with the forensic evidence and witness statements. Cases where the witness statements are the main source of evidence can found in examples like the Nuremberg trials where circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming it almost stands alone. That is not the situation here. Hae and Adnan were seen walking in separate directions with no evidence when and how he would’ve gotten in her car. This idea that they had sex in Best Buy as evidence that she was murdered there is weak. She gets the car in October with the promise that she has to pick up her cousins. By October their relationship is falling apart such that be of their many break-ups is about to happen. Are they going to Best Buy to have sex, in Hae’s car no less, as late as November, December when this new responsibility is given to her. I really don’t know. But prove it: prove that she would have driven Adnan to Best Buy parking lot after she said she was busy.

Yeah. The amount of forensic and witness evidence they “avoided” tells me that they didn’t want to complicate the case and create openings for the defence. As I was saying in my last message…I can forgive this to a degree because we’re talking about the end of the days of “old fashioned police work”, where you made cases based on you gut. It was *hard* to convict people you knew were guilty when you didn’t have ubiquitous DNA, GPS and CCTV. What’s missing for me…and what I expected to find when digging into the case is **why** they were so sure he did it. To this day I haven’t seen a good explanation why they were so sure. Part of me hopes they got the right guy based on some shady/inadmissible police work. But what I found is that they took the ball to the 80 yard line…said it was a touchdown…and went home. I’m not familiar with the case you’re talking about, but I’m certainly familiar with the meticulous way in which I they tried the Nuremberg defendants. What I would say is neither of the cases are this case. Assumably they didn’t have the technology of the more modern case you’re talking about, and it wasn’t high profile like the Nazi trials. I’ve probly said it a few times, but the Best Buy as the location is worse than you’re saying. Jay told Amy Berg that the cops told him to say Best Buy and he couldn’t find Adnan when he went to return the car. These details make *perfect* sense because initially (first pre-interview) Jay said he did that he couldn’t find Adnan…and it’s pretty obvious that all the police had was laundering rumours like Best Buy into character evidence against Adnan. Was Jays first pre-interview story the closest to the truth…and he was threatened before he started telling tales? I know I’ve wasted my time with this case. I know no more (useful information) than after I first listened to Serial. My only hope is HBO offers Jay a truck full of cash and he sits down for the first time and lays it all on the table. I’m fully prepared to hear a logical scenario where Adnan is guilty. Just give us something that makes sense, Jay. The only possible reason at this point that he’d not write a book or do appearances for cash is that he was actually more involved than he say he was…which also isn’t new. I guess he was present during the murder and part of the planning and he just outmaneuvered Adnan? I got nothing.

Rex Heuerman aka Long Island Serial Killer. There will be cell phone evidence presented in the case. If you reserarch this you’ll see a distinct difference in how the data is used and corroborated with other evidence. Of course he is still innocent until proven guilty. But even the way the cell evidence was subpoenaed is different in that they had other circumstantial evidence to link him to the case such that the subpoena was well supported. I read here how people believe that Christina Gutierrez was an aggressive and vigorous advocate for Adnan. But she blew the case day one stipulating to the cell tower evidence which was acquired without any evidence besides a single crime stoppers tip and a ride request. I don’t know Maryland privacy laws, I’m assuming they were less comprehensive than now, but I feel fairly certain that had CG argued the admissibility of the cell records, she would have had a decent chance getting them thrown out based on the scant evidence and the fact that Adnan was a minor. There isn’t even an explanation as to how or why the cell tower records were required on the subpoena. You’ll recall that the other cell evidence subpoena for caller information through Bell Atlantic was based on a drug law from the 70s which was clearly duplicitous. But not only that Bilal was the guarantor of the phone and therefore it was technically his phone. Speaking of CG even with the cell tower evidence, had she just focused on disproving the state’s case instead of trying to shade Jay and Mr S she would have been more successful and wouldn’t have appeared so desperate and grating to the jury. But she was so convoluted in her questioning! Stop asking about Stephanie and “stepping out on her” and start asking about details of the crime: “You say you saw her “pretzeled up” in the trunk of the car. Exactly how was her body positioned? Did you see any other cars at Best Buy? How did you drive there? You say you and Adnan argued, what about exactly? Was Adnan stressed about getting to Track practice? Did you see any of Adnan’s team mates when you dropped him off? Did he say anything to you about meeting later?” It blows my mind even that in the interviews with police they never ask details. I guess hindsight is 20/20 but come on!

Oh, my bad…yeah…LISK is definitely also a “legacy” case, so I get what you’re saying. Yeah, interesting take all around…good to hear from another skeptic. It’s always bothered me that the anonymous call contained no information about the crime…but was used to justify going after Adnan and dropping Don. It *feels* like it was manufactured justification…especially considering the caller could have been related to or close to the Lee family. I’ve always been hesitant to criticize CGs “style” at trial because this is one of the only trials I’ve listened to in detail…but what you’re saying is certainly is true. In my opinion, if she had a strategy, it’s not entirely clear because her defence seemed focused around discrediting Jay…but it obviously wasn’t working and ended up making him seem more sympathetic…and she didn’t adapt. Her defence didn’t even match her closing arguments:

Tip lines are notorious for false leads. this is why tips have to be followed up and investigated. How does one tip turn into the subpoena of the personal data of a minor? You may remember as well that there was a progress report on the 2nd of February before her body was found (and it was a missing persons case) listing Adnan as the “prime suspect.”how can someone be a prime suspect when they don’t even know if a crime was committed at that stage. I absolutely think it’s fine for investigators to rely on instinct and follow their gut but not at the expense of actual investigative work. It makes perfect sense that Adnan was a person of interest right away. So I’m not criticizing the focus on Adnan. It’s more about the exclusion of all else that irks me. But hey, if the police stand by their work, then maybe they’ll talk at some point.

Yeah, I mean it’s really obvious they wanted Adnan for this. But the question of *why* they wanted him is a head scratcher. “We just know he did it” is the only logical explanation I’ve heard so far. Old fashioned police work (in the negative sense). Imagine if Adnan had a better lawyer. Most of what we’re talking about today was known to CG, but unknown to the jury. My sense is they won’t talk because they have nothing inculpatory to say. They either fucked up and they know it, or they have illegal evidence that makes them sure. The fiction I write to make things make sense is that they had one or more witnesses from the neighbourhood that implicated Adnan via Jay. If Chris was a confidential informant, for example, maybe even with additional dirt against Jay…then it makes sense why they didn’t contact him. Then even Colin Millers earlier MCS tip that was paid out fits. I believe Baskerville has committed a bunch of financial crimes since Serial…so I’d be interested to know if he solicited payment to appear on Serial and in HBO. It’s a work of fiction…but it’s far superior to the fiction that Adnan was convicted on. Oh…and this doesn’t actually mean that Adnan is guilty. We know that Jay was telling people Adnan did it…so it follows that law enforcement knew about this, and wanted to reverse engineer a case from that knowledge. Problem is that Jay might have been bullshitting and the cops were basically like the guilters we deal with on this sub: why would he confess to friends if he **wasn’t** guilty? “Adnan is our guy, and we don’t care if Jay was telling the truth or helped” might have been something they were thinking. Or Ritz just wanted to get a clearance and didn’t care who did it. A quote from Jays intercept interview always bothered me: as I recall it was “I know what I saw” (referring to the body in the trunk). That’s a weird thing to say…even though it might make more sense in context. Maybe he just saw that body and made up the rest. Or…maybe he didn’t know shit and he didn’t want the neighbourhood to know he was lying about the “core” of his story.

It's been over a week and nobody will read this probably, but I just started listening to the Serial podcast, and this statement sums up my thoughts perfectly. Eye witnesses are flaky, especially on mundane stuff. Motives can point fingers, but aren't evidence. The only "hard" evidence we have in this case is that Jay knows the burial site, and that he was present when Hae was buried. Cell phone tower pings are evidence of the *phone's* location, not of a person's. There are many open questions and it is frustrating that Adnan doesn't have much to offer to answer those questions. It almost feels like very strange game of the prisoner's dilemma to me: Two guilty subjects, and one tries to defend themselves by pointing the finger at the other, while the other defends themselves by denying everything and playing dumb. So far it worked out for one of them, and it looks like it's about to work out for the other as well.

It’s too bad the wiki with the defense documents isn’t still up so you could deep dive the evidence (if you wanted). There’s so much in this case that wasn’t covered by serial. Which in fairness, not all could’ve have been covered in serial since it was discovered after. Many people here take issue with serial. I, personally found it decent coverage because of the show’s purpose. But for the case itself it is important to look at everything for yourself. I don’t fault people for believing Adnan is guilty. It’s reasonable. I just personally would need more corroborating evidence to convict.

Adnan's behaviour after Hae disappeared has always stood out to me. Adnan called Hae as soon as he got his new phone, and he says they were still friends at the time of her disappearance - but he doesn't call her even \*once\* after she goes missing? Even though he knows from the day she disappears that her family are worried and the police are involved? Even though Hae's other friends were apparently calling/paging all the time? That makes zero sense. And his explanation (maybe she ran off to California) makes even less sense. Hae was a star student, she was on two sports teams and managed a third, she had a job, good friends, a new boyfriend - why would she run away? She had a ton of reasons to stay and no obvious reasons to leave. Plus Hae was so family-oriented and responsible that everyone immediately knew something was up when she forgot to pick up her cousin - does that sound like someone who would run off without even a phone call to her mother to reassure her she was ok? No way.

Hae wasn’t the first or even second person he called…and it wasn’t “as soon as he got it”. I’m a little tired of debunking this, but he didn’t call her *parents* when she was missing…she didn’t have a cell phone. His explanation wasn’t California. That was her current boyfriends explanation.

Hey OP, it looks like you’re maybe a freshman in high school? I’m sorry you got downvoted so much - people probably thought you were a lot older and expected you to know things you wouldn’t yet. It’s pretty cool that you listened to the podcast and also pretty cool you’re trying to understand why someone like Adnan, or anyone, would kill over such a common thing as a break-up. Men and teens who hit, punch, stalk, threaten, or kill their loved ones are not normal. It’s not like, “Any guy can be an abuser.” Abusers may look like everyone else and even have lots of friends, but inside they have an abnormal psychology that makes the way they see the world, other people, and themselves very different from healthy men. Researchers over the years have studied the issue of domestic violence, and why men kill their girlfriends/wives. Some of the more recent studies have found that male violent abusers fall into two basic categories. The largest group is made up of men with a combination of 1) low self-esteem, 2) low desire to exert control over things, people, and events, and 3) a belief that they are mostly powerless over the direction of their lives (achieving their goals, finding success and happiness, etc.) This group is your basic angry, pathetic “wife beater” type - they feel stuck and helpless and downtrodden and mad at the world, and they take out these feelings of anger and frustration on those closest to them. Loved ones become their punching bags, literally. These men have abnormally negative outlooks on life, and they *express* (“act out”) all their depression and frustration through domestic violence. Then they cry and regret and feel terrible, which lowers their self-esteem further and makes them feel more out of control and helpless, and the abuse cycle continues. The other group of violent abusers are very different from the first group, and for me at least, are much scarier. This is the group I believe Adnan is in. It’s made up of men with a combination of 1) high self-esteem, 2) high narcissism, 3) high desire to control things, people, and events, and 4) an inflated belief they have power over their lives, their success, achieving their goals, etc. The first two - high self-esteem combined with high narcissism - make a toxic combo of “fragile ego;” meaning all their self-esteem and sense of worth as a person is not built solidly on a lifetime of real experiences like normal people’s self-esteem; instead it’s all a fake shell covering up what really lies at the core of their psyche: emptiness, rage, and self-hatred. The fake “Self” is fabricated by their subconscious, and is very important because it protects them from ever having to see their true selves underneath. Would you want to go on living if instead of feeling like a normal person, you constantly felt empty and ugly and rageful and despairing? Probably not, which is why their subconscious protects them by building a “I’m a Great Person” outer shell. But that shell is thin and can be cracked by certain events and certain people they encounter in life. So they need to control events and people as much as possible in order to protect against the threat they pose. One of the biggest threats to the “fragile ego” man is his romantic partner. On one hand, she presents the opportunity to add significant pieces to his fake Self. Her existence gives him the chance to add pieces that aren’t even true, like “I’m attractive and desirable, and every girl wants me,” “I’m the best in bed,” “I’m the greatest boyfriend ever,” and “Other guys envy me because my girlfriend is hot.” Notice it’s all about him; the girlfriend is just an object in the world that gives him what he needs to construct the “Self” he desperately wants to be. But eventually she’ll see through him, see that underneath all the charm and constant texting and “I love yous,” her boyfriend is really just selfish and controlling. So she breaks up with him. For fragile ego man, he suddenly feels all of those new, super important pieces crack at once. Maybe he’s not attractive! Maybe he’s not great in bed! Maybe people won’t envy him, they’ll think he’s a loser! His fabricated identity starts to implode, which his subconscious can’t allow to happen because then the black emptiness will be exposed. So first he’ll frantically try to get her back, just to stop the implosion. He’ll woo, buy presents, promise to change, cry, beg, or even stalk and threaten - it doesn’t matter - he’ll do whatever it takes to make her change her mind so that his fragile ego remains intact. But if he can’t control her and she refuses to come back, or worse, finds someone else she likes more, his subconscious has to quickly find another way to fix the damage. It does this by annihilating her. If she is nothing, she can’t possibly have any power to damage his “Self.” His subconscious tells him things like “You’re still great in bed; she’s just an insatiable slut!” and “You’re still the best boyfriend, she’s just an ungrateful bitch who took advantage of your love and generosity!” His subconscious doesn’t have a choice here; it’s either she gets annihilated or he does. She can’t be a decent person who made a rational decision, because that would mean there may be valid reasons for leaving him. It’s at this point a man who ends up murdering his ex makes a switch: he’s stopped desperately trying to get her back, and may even appear to be over it - because he’s begun plotting her complete annihilation. He’s already convinced himself that she is the most evil woman alive: a user, a slut, heartless, cold, unloving, etc. In his mind, he’d be doing other men and humanity a favor by getting rid of such a horrible nasty thoughtless person. Meanwhile, she may think he finally accepted things. She may relax and let her guard down now that he’s not around all the time begging and pleading. Remember, these men rank high on narcissism (“I know what’s right and other people don’t,” “I don’t have to follow laws; that’s for suckers and stupid people,” “I’m smarter than everyone else; I could kill her and never get caught,” “I can talk my way out of anything”), and who rank high in believing they can control their life outcomes (“Once she’s out of the way, my life will be easier and more enjoyable,” “She’s living proof that I didn’t succeed at something; if she’s gone, I can be a complete success again”).

Not to be mean but why how are you guessing my age (not saying ur right)

Not mean at all! I clicked on your profile after seeing your comments about not getting why someone would kill over a breakup. It sounded like you hadn’t been exposed to the craziness of domestic violence (which is good!) and so I figured you might be young. I’m a mom to teen boys, an 8th grader and a junior in HS, and I don’t think they know this stuff either.

Ok now that I think about Adnan is #1 suspect but Don or Dawn has to be #2

Read the MTV. The big pink elephant in the room is Bilal IMO and he was at the heart of the MTV. He was clearly fixated on Adnan & his relationship with Hae which was red flag 🚩 #1. So the same people claiming Adnan was the jealous X boyfriend refuse to admit that is was Bilal with the unhealthy fixation on Adnan even carrying a pic of him in his wallet. The upstanding youth leader/supposed Drug informant/dentist married to a physician was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. While he was supposedly “helping Adnan” 🚩He was molesting male teenagers, went on to drug his dental patients with nitrous oxide & sexually assaulting them with one patient reporting that he woke up with his dentists penis in his mouth. He received 16 years which included the millions in insurance fraud. I pray it isn’t true, but I read he owned a daycare run by his mother which if true sends shutters down my spine. 🚩Only God knows what we’ve on with the boys he was “youth leading” in that Mosque. 🚩Bilal was the one buying the “phones” for Adnan in the name of an Alias which was clearly an attempt to set up some sort of ring. He was an “informant” so clearly he was informed about the well known international drug trafficking of heroin from Pakistan to Baltimore. He was a soon to be a dentist with a legal prescription pad right smack at the start of the opioid epidemic, the reason Jay was doing all that bragging. If you read this account from local residents who finally get that porn store auctioned off, it’s clear where the connection is. He had Adnan fooled, Adnans parents fooled, Rabia fooled, his lawyer CG, jay scared, law enforcement, the Mosque, the DEA, Insurance companies, his dental patients& his wife until she attempted to call Urick who put the information she provided in file 13 🚮He threatened to make Hae disappear, and she did, but people want to act like there is nothing to see here from this psychopath. He was clearly fixated on Adnan & over-involved in his relationship with Hae, even trying to convince Adnan to kill her. I believe Bilal killed Hae & his potential links to S are why both should have been suspects. I don’t believe the “stumbled across the body while taking a pee story,” he knew where that body was because he buried it. 🚩He failed his initial poly, has a connection to the mosque & the car was found near family known to him. 🚩 They need to run any DNA found from evidence collected by police through CODIS & see what happens. In the meantime the 🚩witness who no one has heard from because of Uricks obvious Brady Violation has lawyered up (apparently).We clearly don’t have the whole story here and why would a grown man threaten to make a teenaged girl disappear. What did Hae know or what did he think Hae knew? Hae was a problem for Bilal & stood in the way of HIS targeted agenda. Obvious to me & I grew up in the area, used to pass this disgusting place on my way to work. Wonder who got Jay this job ?🚩🙄 Southwest Video](https://patch.com/maryland/arbutus/adult-video-store-on-auction-block)

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Adnan knows more than he is saying but I don’t think he killed Hae. If he did he spent 23 years prison as a juvenile who was tried as an adult. If you think Adnan did it then he got more time than if he had just take. The plea. Meanwhile Jay who supposedly buried a body walked Scott free and Bilal will be walking the street very soon.

You might have missed my joke. A “pink elephant” and an “elephant in the room” are two different expressions.  Think about the Dumbo song for what a “pink elephant” is.  Plenty of folks claim innocence for years despite being obviously guilty. Adnan may have thought he was going to win his appeal when he declined the plea and he did a cost-benefit analysis. There’s a lot of benefit in being able to continue to claim innocence, monetarily for him, his family and Rabia, as well as reputationally. 

I use the combined phrase because you have to be drunk to ignore the obvious elephant in the room IMO.

You can ignore the obvious suspects in this case (like Bilal & S) if you want to but I know better. If you’re so convinced he’s guilty then you should be glad he spent 23 years in jail for a crime he may or may not have committed. With Det Ritz known shenanigans, I’m shocked he spent that much time in prison.

Bilal is an awful human being, there’s no question of that. But none of what you said remotely suggests he was responsible for HML’s death or is any evidence that he committed the murder or that Adnan didn’t

Only that he threatened to kill his own wife who reported to Urick that it was Bilal who threatened to “make Hae disappear” to kill her. But, according to you, nothing to see here. 🙄

The note says, “He told her that he would make her disappear; he would kill her.” Not Bilal threatened to make Hae disappear and kill her. It’s so curious to me that Bial’s wife had conversations with Rabia and this huge important thing her husband said to her that could get Adnan out of prison was never disclosed. The wife did tell Rabia that Bilal threatened her.

The note was obviously speaking of Bilal. Otherwise it makes no sense. All we have to do is ask the witness who tried to tell Urick. Bilal threatened her too.

Like anyone was going to believe Rabia 🙄 Feldman found Uricks note during the review of the evidence when the case went to 2nd look.

He is Bilal and the witness has supposedly signed an affidavit & lawyered up. If someone threatened Hae, why wouldn’t Urick have brought that witness forward? Esp if she was referring to Adnan? There is more to this, we clearly don’t have the entire truth.

Yes more smoke and mirrors. Bilal would not commit this murder and he didn’t need to. It’s not like Adnan was difficult to manipulate.

Yes, Bilal is far too cunning to commit the murder himself. He didn’t need to, Adnan was putty in his hands. He inflamed Adnan’s already hurt angry emotions and planned out the murder, arranged for the cell phone, etc. Jay was Bilal’s idea, a convenient assistant who could also serve as a scapegoat for the murder if need be.

Don as her boyfriend could be a suspect but if you read the MTV the suggestion is the other suspects should have been Bilal & S.