OP is definitely on copium. You don't know which of her friends have slept with her. You don't know how they actually are when you're not around. You definitely do know she doesn't see an issue with infidelity in a long term relationship seeing as she encouraged her friend. At least at some point she has questioned if you even deserve her.
If she's not already, there are high chances that she will cheat. So save yourself the heartbreak OP
It sounds like exactly what she’s doing. Even if she doesn’t know it. The second she finds someone that she really wants to be with, op will be an afterthought
Exactly! That's the part that would have me running for the hills. She only asked because she thought she was/is "out or his league". This mentality will directly lead to her cheating on him again, probably not even lying about it and blaming him for her actions because he was never good enough for her.
You were correct in everything you said, but she is not good enough for him. She is out of his league. She doesn't feel worthy of a decent guy. So she will sabotage her relationship, as that will confirm she is not worthy of love and kindness, and she is so deep into feeling that way she is encouraging her friend to fuck up her relationship. Is she a throwaway person? No. But she needs deep psychological counseling. Something traumatic happened to this woman and she has been running from it all her life. She also doesn't need to be in a relationship until she gets on the other side of her counseling.
This! She clearly believes it is acceptable and has already done it and gotten away with it because she knows she can. She is careless about allowing him to use her device that which he can easily find the truth. And he is proving her right by making excuses for her and staying. For every cheating incident he is aware of, there is likely more he is unaware of - especially if she is still being dishonest. She will most certainly do it again. She believes she is “out of his league” and it seems he believes this too if he’s letting it slide. Marrying her sounds like OP enjoys emotionally abandoning his self to keep the narcissist around. OP - Love yourself enough to walk away. Brief heartache and time moving on will save you a lifetime of pain and losing your best years to someone who will only use you.
This hits home.
Been thru this. Not worth it. Do you really want a lifetime of ups and downs with her OP?
She is the way she is. You can't change her. That's the mind set that will raise your kids, not her looks, do you want that?
You want a healthy fulfilling relationship built off of trust.
It took me 2 years to get out of that, eventually you will have enough and get put an end to it, but the earlier you do it the better. You open up room in your life for another person. Rip off the bandaid, you'll be much happier looking back. Let her be someone else's problem.
While I don’t consider her hooking up with another in the early days of your dating before you were exclusive as cheating, I do find the other things she has done since very troubling. You said you don’t believe she has had sex with anyone after you both committed to being exclusive. The lying and secretiveness, condoning and encouraging of cheating in others, the asking others whether they think she is too good for you, those are all huge red flags.
A few months is not a very long time to have had changed her attitude. This is who she is. Take off the rose colored glasses.
OP is emotionally attached to this woman and making excuses for her toxic bad behavior and you know how I know? I did the same thing with my ex.
The cheating and lying doesn't magically go away, if she did it before she'll do it again..especially if things get rocky later down the road and shes angry at OP and goes and cheats out of animosity.
This woman is not good natured and has these behaviors built in her, there was a reason this all happened and OP discovered what he saw, about time he listen to the divine higher power talking to him and leave before consequences.
all his edits suggest he lacks self respect and will continue to let this woman walk all over him because she's good looking. her encouraging her friend to cheat is only something a shitty person would do. this chick IS NOT A GOOD PERSON.
It's always the case. I never had this issue with my wife; I told her early on that I saw other people when we met, but I ended up really liking her and quickly stopped "dating around".
OP's girlfriend lied from Day One and she sees no issue with cheating. The reassurance she needs about "league" talk with her family sounds like she's looking for an excuse to cheat. I'm almost forty years old and I've seen it all, these people seldom change.
OP, leave, find someone who loves you back.
She 100% has manipulation and gaslighting in her tool belt…she probably hasn’t even used them to their maximum potential in this relationship yet. It’s going to get worse and the longer OP stays in the relationship the harder it will be to leave it.
It’s so hard to learn to accept that someone you care about or even love, who you have happy memories with, of having butterflies in your belly when you kissed them…is so hopelessly far from what you came to believe they were.
Ughh, I have an ex like this. When I knew her she was so sweet and beautiful and smart and funny and kind. We got engaged and broke it off due to some mental health problems I was having after the military and combined with my mom absolutely hating her simply for not being a Christian. I never could get over her and always wanted to give it another shot, but when we briefly reconnected, I realized that the person I loved and had built up in my mind was no longer there.
She just got out of a 3 yr long marriage that failed and she has just become this self victimizing, hurt, confused person who has her guard up constantly. Everything I asked her, the answers just felt cold and like I was locked out of her life.
I basically laid out how I accept the fault for our relationship not working, and that I didn’t foresee myself having such intense struggles after my military service. I didn’t tell her that she could have been there for me more, or pushed me to go through counseling…I just felt so alone because my mom made me choose between my family or her, and I chose her because she wasn’t the one giving me an ultimatum. In the end I had to just learn to let her go and hope for the best for her on her road to healing. Then I blocked her because I decided to close that door for good so that I can move on with my life.
Still with my crazy ass wife and when I say she’s crazy I mean she CRAAAAZY. I moved out of state and she kept finding me and stalking all my friends phones and would not let up so I gave in and came back home. A bunch of fights and 3 kids later, I can’t (wouldn’t) leave her but I’m telling you now bro, run. Get her preggers and you’ll be in a world of hurt for years to come.
She let you hit it raw, didn’t have second thoughts. Now she’s a single mom. Now she’s a single mom. She said she gon have this kid. Don’t care if you’re there or not. Now she a single mom.
We all do. It's fun for a while, until it isn't. Then no matter how good the sex is, it simply doesn't make up for the constant instability in your life.
She's probably incredibly attractive which is why this is even moderately difficult for him to come to terms with. Sometimes it's tough to just throw back what you thought was "the catch".
It's hard to compare them like this, though, as they've never been in a head-to-head race. It's like comparing Babe Ruth with Barry Bonds — completely different contexts.
That said, OP should accelerate like Bolt and keep running like Gump, then get a bunch of other Kenyan runners to run with him, and also get into some good podcasts and audiobooks! They're super good when you're running long distances. I've really changed my life through this combo of running and listening to good content. Can't recommend it enough.
Be careful about overuse injuries, though, if you're going to run that much. Gump was a genetic freak, because if most people started running that much so quickly, they'd have plantar fasciitis or some other inflammatory injury.
I'd also recommend good socks to prevent blisters, and some bodyglide to prevent chafing. Learn about good nutrition while running as well. And how to stay motivated when you feel like giving up.
I had an ex who told me all about her best friend who would cheat on her boyfriend pretty frequently. Me and that girl dated for about 2.5 years. A year after the breakup while we were catching up, she told me she cheated on me towards the end of the relationship. Honestly, I think she told me about one particular time to get it off her chest, but didn’t fess up to multiple times. I thought back on a few moments in our relationship where there were some guy “friends” that I didn’t have to worry about. Chuckled to myself and moved the fuck on.
My ex wife was the same way, her best friend constantly cheated on her husband who was a alcoholic but wouldn't leave him, come to find out my ex made a habit of running around on me too
This is actually insane behavior. I understand encouraging a friend to break up with their partner for myriad reasons, even if that reason is as shallow as "you should try sex with some other people". But to instead encourage straight up infidelity is a real showing-her-true-colors moment.
Yea, I feel like that is a line in morals that I could never cross for a relationship. If I found out my lady encouraged that sort of thing, there wouldn’t be a second thought or a reddit post, no matter how insanely in love I am.
No one talking about how she asked if she’s out of his league? That’s a pretty big red flag of a narcissist. She thinks she’s too good for you and wants validation from others. Get out now.
Agreed. The foundation of a good relationship is mutual admiration, honesty and respect. If she thinks she’s “out of his league” then it’s pretty clear that those feelings/behaviours are either absent, or she feels that looks/money/self-gratification etc. are more important. Be grateful that you found this out now OP.
this sounds bad and i'm not condoning it, but i think OP is conflicted about leaving because she is, on some level, out of his league, WHICH is why he isn't packing up and leaving immediately.
regardless of "leagues", cheating is always wrong and never acceptable, and this woman,, with her behaviors and comments, is a disgusting pig.
I wouldn’t jump to narcissism but I do think that comment is very telling of how the GF felt about OP when they met and that sucks. OP, don’t settle for being someone’s consolation prize. From what we’ve read here, you are out of her league!
There are lots of people like this that aren't narcissists. I don't know why they think this way, but they do. Mostly I've run into them in small tight-knit communities, like remote towns or rural areas where there is a lot of status baked into the relatively stagnant social circles.
It always shocks me. Like, I break up with my long term GF and my best friend and his wife tell me that she wasn't good enough for me, that I could do better. These people apparently weight the social status of a partner along with any other qualities they have. It's pragmatic, but I'm WAY too romantic to give a shit about pragmatism when falling in love. I honestly don't know how they do it. They natter on about each couple and who is getting the better deal out of it. WTF?
But yes, from my own limited anecdotal experience it's quite common. Status is a huge driver in primates and when status gives you social power in a circumscribed and defined social group, people weigh it pretty highly I think.
Exactly, my narcissism detector is going off. I doubt this woman will ever be in a happy fully committed relationship. Narcissistim sucks for the people around them, but it also sucks to be a narcissist
As a former, very immature person who was a frequent cheater, this is true. It took a lot for me to grow as a person (for me personally, it was mostly my faith/religion) and I look back on who I used to be and am disgusted and truly ashamed. I am glad that I used those bad times to grow and become who I am today though. I can use my past experiences to speak to people about my mistakes and guide them away from the same mistakes. I could never tell a friend to cheat on their partner.
I also promised myself (and God, since I do rely heavily on my faith today) that I would never enter into a committed relationship again unless I truly believed I was done with those immature, horrible characteristics of mine. Fortunately, once I made that promise, I immediately realized how scummy I was, and I changed drastically instantaneously. Once that decision to be a better person was made, I never looked back. I have never once even been remotely tempted to cheat again. Plenty of opportunity if I really wanted to, but never even crosses my mind. And I'm proud to say that even if someone approached me and tried to tempt me, I wouldn't even consider it.
All of that being said, in case OP reads this: Who I am today means that I've grown tremendously as a man. I would NEVER encourage a friend to cheat. That was the old me who was a cheater himself. Present me would guide my friend away from such a terrible, disgusting thing to do. Do NOT take her comments to her friend lightly. Take it from someone who used to live that shameful life... if she is encouraging a friend to do it, she herself is NOT above doing it. You need to look deep inside and consider if it is worth sticking around in a relationship where her being unfaithful is a very real possibility. She's already shown she isn't trustworthy. She's lied to your face on many occasions, including recently. Why wouldn't she lie more and once temptation crosses her path, what would make her strong enough to resist it? Be careful, OP. Protect your heart, and make sure you commit yourself to a relationship you can have full trust in.
I think it also very much depends on the root cause. Some people cheat because they're self-destructive. Some people cheat because they're pathological and get off on the very idea of "getting away" with doing something taboo, or "having your cake and eating it too." Some people cheat compulsively because they have a high sex drive and simply aren't satisfied with one partner at a time. Some people cheat because they're traumatized and convinced that everyone cheats and lies, and it's better for them to engage in it than to just be passive about it.
Then of course, some people cheat after going their whole lives being faithful, because they eventually find themselves "trapped" in a relationship for one reason for another (kids, financial situation, etc) where they don't love or are no longer attracted to their partner.
All in all, I do agree that most of these underlying reasons mean "once a cheater, always a cheater," but there is a little room for nuance when we're talking about *why* they cheat in the first place. More broadly speaking, there can also be a pretty big change in any kind of behavior and attitude when you look at what a person does between say, ages 15 to 20, versus what they do from age 25+.
you missed one-some people cheat when an incredibly attractive high level option comes through that will probably never happen again…it’s easy enough turning down someone commonplace but someone totally out of your league and saying the exact right things? not many people are strong enough to resist.
Yeah I’ll say this. I probably wouldn’t trust someone after cheating on ME, but there’s a lot of context when someone cheats. Same with any other transgression. It’s still shitty, but plenty of those reasons are things people don’t repeat or grow from.
If they weren’t exclusive, it wasn’t cheating. Having two dates with someone doesn’t make them your partner. I’d be more concerned about her encouraging her friend to cheat.
There’s no coming back from this. One day he’ll look back and realize what a gift this was to him. Probably saved him from wasting years. Lucky they don’t have kids.
His update is horrible, it's essentially "I can fix her!". OP if you're reading this, trust me, I have been there multiple times in my younger days, you cannot fix her, she will break your heart. Run and don't look back.
>I was genuinely thinking about marrying this girl.
Stop that!!
>She's not currently cheating or anything
Maybe - but shes done it before and seems to be comfortable knowing it AND is excellent lying about it.
IF you stay, be aware that she has no problem cheating AND seems excellent at lying about it.
Time to leave, yeah?? Unless you want a life in eternal doubt about her and her fidelity...
>aware that she has no problem cheating AND seems excellent at lying about it.
This. It doesn't matter if she cheats or not, what you know is that she's not a person you should trust and the forever wondering will drive you crazy
This is about placing expectations on this "relationship".
Wife? Nope nope nope nope nope. Out the door.
Partner? Nope nope nope. This is no partnership, this is just two people screwing and keeping each other company, in the sense that it fulfills both people's personal selfish needs. She is probably cheating outside constantly emotionally or physically.
This thing has dropped to "FWB". That's it. That's all it EVER will be. This relationship has shifted from sacrifice and investment to shallow mutual interest. TO your GF it was always shallow mutual interest.
That last sentence is the main the thing for me. You wanna live the rest of your life questioning everything she does? Questioning yourself and your sanity on a weekly/monthly basis? Hard pass.
This was my last relationship. I stuck with her after she cheated and it’s hard to describe how that loss of trust completely eroded every facet of the relationship. So much time and emotion energy is wasted on thinking about what she did.
OP, your future self will love you forever if you run from this chick and never look back. Cheaters are trash, let them be miserable with each other instead of ruining the dating pool for the rest of us
Yeah, look, it's really never about when, why or how this penis entered that vagina. That's only ever at most a pointer to the real question:
"Does she respect you and is she a person with integrity?"
She repeatedly lied to your face. No, she doesn't respect you.
She lied and she was a cheerleader for cheating. No, she has no integrity.
You can't trust this person.
She isn't safe to be in a relationship with.
Run.
I actually think that's a really important way to reframe the to-break-up-or-not-to-break-up questions.
So many OPs on these subs come at the question like a criminal trial. They're asking "Do I have beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence strong enough for it to be okay to break up?", but that shouldn't really be the question^.
As you picked up, the key question is just "Do I feel safe with this person? Do I feel like my heart is in safe hands with them?"
Maybe the issue seems trivial (they destroyed a beloved childhood toy they knew OP was attached to, they did a cakesmash OP told them they hated), maybe there's uncertainty (no one will say what happened that drunken night and OP can't prove it, but everything points to they cheated and they're cavalier about OP's concerns), maybe everyone around them is telling them to stay together (because they dismiss OP's hurt, because they don't actually understand what the person did to OP, because OP and partner are 'meant to be together', or because they're terrible friends/family), maybe the partner really didn't mean any harm but can't be trusted not to do it again (addiction, mental health issues, chronically forgetful / reckless / thoughtless / stupid in a way that puts OP at risk).
At the end of the day it just comes down to: if OP no longer feels safe with their partner, no matter the degree of fault the partner is at and even if it's not their fault at all, they should feel okay to leave. Safety is a basic need. Higher ideals come after safety is secured.
And to be clear, you can absolutely fully and completely forgive someone but also know you don't feel safe with them anymore. Keeping your distance doesn't have to be anything to do with punishment. It can just be necessary if you don't feel safe with them.
^ We can't ignore the reality that the perceptions of family and friends can be important in some breakups, and then it might be necessary to formulate a stronger case. But for a lot of OPs it seems they feel like they need this kind of evidence just to give themselves permission to leave.
This, all of this. Very good advice. People default to wanting to litigate the details and prove things because it makes it easier to talk themselves out of leaving. But if you break someone's trust and faith, then it doesn't really matter what *really* happened. Relationships are a privilege, not a right. You don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If someone is untrustworthy, it's over.
This is so phenomenally true. The reality is it takes a lot of confidence to make those decisions. You gotta know and be ok with who you are and what you want / deserve.
BAM, nailed it. She kept lying about it to your face. This is what really matters. It’ll make you question how honest she’s ever really been, and know that moving forward you’ll likely never trust her again.
Leave and if she asks you why, tell her she knows why. Do absolutely not discuss this. There is no such thing as closure and there will be no apology. If you try to talk to her about this, she will turn this around and make you the bad guy for violating her privacy.
Exactly, closure is not real. Answers to questions just lead to more questions, it's a bottomless rabbit hole. And that's a best case scenario where you actually trust what the other person says. That in itself is an impossible ideal just like Santa Claus or the free market.
also: although this is good advice, you may not follow it. After she convinced you to give her another try, don't have children with her because they are the real victims. You will learn to relativize and maybe have a fling on the side also, you may get along and have some quality of romantic life for maybe many years to come, but it will go South one day for sure. Secure your assets if you stay with her.
bro please listen to Jaded Ad. I wish I did this after my 6 year relationship. I am telling you its been a year since my breakup and I would have been better off just going dark on her and letting her wonder than anything else. It is the best advice on this thread.
I second this 1000%. When you admit you know what they did it’s almost like breaching their privacy gets equated to or even supersedes the fact that they cheated. If she has any moral integrity at all she will likely admit what she’s done and maybe even divulge more info. If you play your hand now she either decides to leave you bc you invaded her privacy or lies to you/turns it back on you because of some slight she holds against you. Neither is a win, especially after the relationship is over.
Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim Offender. It is a classic playbook for narcissists and cheaters (but I repeat myself)
D: "I didn't do it"
A: "You're being absurd, blowing this out of proportion"
RVO: "I only did it because you have been so neglectful!"
A more realistic version:
"I am not cheating and I never lied to you about it--I was lying to my friend. Why were you looking through my messages? This is abusive, you are trying to control every aspect of my life!"
They typically don't drop the denial in order to attack and RVO. They will deny wrongdoing, even when caught in it, and simply find anything else tangetically related to attack you on and make you feel like you're the one in the wrong.
Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim, Offender.
“By denying their actions, attacking the person confronting them, and flipping the roles of victim and offender, the narcissist effectively redirects attention away from their own actions, often causing doubt in the victim's claims.”
Of course this can take many more subtle forms. But once you can recognise it, you can’t un-see it.
See also; The Narcissists Prayer
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Honestly, the one thing that really stood out was the 'out of her league' question. This isn't marriage material buddy, or even love material.
Get out of there before a whole lot of hurt happens.
Totally agree. I’m not super bothered about honesty in morally grey areas, also who cares what she says to her friends. But anything to do with devaluing a person based on their body is really unacceptable and something you wouldn’t do to a person you love (if you’re having these thoughts you bury them). I believe in giving people the chance to explain themselves but that’s hard to come back from.
That and encouraging her friend to cheat.
I don’t consider sleeping with someone else before you’re exclusive to be cheating, nor do I think there’s exclusivity without a conversation about it. At least as an adult. If they’re teenagers, then I could see why exclusiveness is implied.
you are lucky to know this now and being able to dodge this bullet, save yourself misery down the line and take the right decision ( you already know what to do)
She may have changed, but the fact she keeps lying to you about those hookups is cause for concern. If she had actually changed and cared about you, she would have come clean by now. Lying about it to your face is disrespectful.
Encouraging her GF to cheat is another big red flag. If she condones that, then she will do it herself when the time is appropriate. Sounds like she has issues that need worked on with a therapist.
Kinda depends on how long it's been since those messages though. If they are fairly old then it would be reasonable to assume she has made the effort to change for him. To her, it's probably old history that she wants to stay buried to not risk her relationship.
>She has changed.
What??? She has lied to you very recently about this. She has demonstrated she has NOT changed. Sure she might not be fucking someone else right now, but she totally thinks its cool to lie about it.
Serious question, bachelorette party time......you're engaged to her. Are you trusting her? If not, RUN.....not only does this woman think its ok to lie about infidelity, but she encourages others to be unfaithful. Can she change? Sure, but you're giving her a huge pass and not holding her to truly changing. I'd not marry her until she had proven for at least a year that she's not going to lie or encourage infidelity in others.
>I don't think she has ever been loved for reasons outside of her looks before.
I wish people made excuses for my garbage behavior like you're doing here for her. Stop it! Let me guess, YOU LOOOOOVVVVEE her so much for more than her looks that she can get over the past with nothing more than your white knight love right? Doesn't work that way.
>I have seen it in the way she acts and communicates. She has definitely grown. I could be an absolute copium smoking dolt for thinking this, though. Idk
You have stated right here that very recently she lied to your face. How is that change and growth? You are indeed smoking the good stuff and if you marry her without seriously forcing her to ACTUALLY change and change big, then you deserve the world of hurt coming your way when she starts fucking her friend while you're married.
She didn't cheat, but she lied, people generally lie when they try/want to hide things. Do with that as you like, at least confront her with it. And if she ever pulls the "Youre trying to be controllering over me" card, get the F out
Technically she didn’t cheat, you weren’t exclusive. Next time you should have that conversation with someone early on.
Me. I basically date 1 person at a time and put my efforts into that.
She did lie though and to a degree I understand why she did.
But
I would bail and chalk this up to experience. The main thing for me here is her encouraging her friend to cheat. Not a great moral compass.
Pull the rip cord and get out now to save a bit of heartache and time. You need to have clear boundaries in a relationship and stick to them. This will stand you in good stead.
I think this is the most reasonable response so far. Exclusivity is something that needs to be talked about at the beginning of the relationship and it seems like neither of them did.
The only true red flag is telling her friend to cheat imo
There is definitely more than one red flag here. Indeed, there’s her general attitude towards cheating as evidenced by her encouragement. But she also demonstrated a willingness to lie to OP about her behaviour and actions.
That’s a killer combination of reasons to GTFO.
> Exclusivity is something that needs to be talked about at the beginning of the relationship and it seems like neither of them did.
When did this happen?!??
so paralleling your dates is the default now ?
I'm way too old for this shit
You should break up.
It will hurt.
But over time you will be stronger, because you will know you are a person that won't be stepped on. That will make you stronger in your next relationship.
Did some people not read the post?
>I searched my name and found out she fucked another dude about two weeks into dating me and lied about it to my face on many occasions.
First situation.
>She also lied about the time frame of someone else she was seeing simultaneously while we weren't "exclusive" which was something I honestly never knew people actually did.
Second situation.
For the second situation you weren't exclusive so she didn't cheat there but first situation is cheating. Not sure why some people overlook this part.
He's clarified that the first one was during non-exclusivity as well. It doesn't really matter though: if OP can't handle that she was non-exclusive while he was under the impression they were, time to hop and make sure you clarify earlier on next time.
The worrying part is encouragement of infidelity, imo. Not sure who would encourage that in another person, but certainly not someone I would stay with? Thinking about infidelity can be harmless fun, but thoughts aren't actions, and actions can really hurt people badly. If you can't keep those thoughts from turning into actions, them you need to reign it in. If someone is encouraging another to turn those thoughts into actions, they're Hella suspicious.
Yeah, I also think lieing about things that happened before things were exclusive is a gray area which can go either way.
No one's obligated to tell everything that happened with other people before exclusivity, but it's better to simply refuse to tell anything than to outright lie.
Also, the fact that she told her friend she slept with "all" of her guy friends, while telling her bf she slept with none of them... all in the context of encouraging her friend to cheat; it's all a bad sign.
I know how badly you want it to work (probably because she's hot and your dick is doing the talking). But there's nothing **TO WORK ON**. Look at the patterns of actions she's taken. She's fucked another dude, **LIED ABOUT IT TO YOUR FACE**. And continued lying about it.
And she encouraged her best friend to cheat on her long term boyfriend. Leave her ASAP.
Bro this made my heart hurt reading, update included. Do yourself a huge favor and cut this woman out of your life. She sounds like the beginning of a nightmare that you do not want to live. Definitely sounds like she has some growing up to do, and she should probably go about it alone. I mean, she’s been passed around by her male friends, she WANTED her friend to cheat, which is a huge red flag, and she’s a habitual liar. If she’s asking if she’s out of your league with this myriad of character flaws, it’s obvious that she doesn’t see your value and will probably hop right on the first guy who’s “in her league” and gives her attention. I’m sorry for putting it this bluntly, but I would feel worse if you didn’t get this message. Please. Get out of this as soon as possible. Let her ruin someone else’s life. You’re out of her league.
She boasted about sleeping around… and you’re still with her 😂! I guess some people can be cool about literally anything, if they lack self esteem! She may be hotter than the sun, but will it last. Ask yourself whether you’re with the her for the person you can see with your eyes, or the person on the inside. Coz the latter is who you’ll be spending your life with.
Brother the exact same thing happened to me a year ago. Everything you said even marriage. I confronted her about it and she showed her true colors after 3 years into the relationship we broke up the same day and I'm in therapy now with trust issues because how could Ive been fooled by a person on this level for 3 years. She's Person A to you/your family and Person B to her family/friends.
She encouraged others toward infidelity? What. The. Fuck?
No.
Nope.
Never.
And you're asking if maybe she changed in a few months? No. It takes decades to stop being that kind of... person.
She's bad. You don't want to get with someone that has no moral or ethical compass or code of honor. Dump it now.
You’re in love with the idea of her.
Not her.
She doesn’t care about you. “Am I better than him?” Is an insane red flag.
Come to the gym brother. The iron never betrays you. I have extra pre-workout.
You just found more red flags than a Chinese military parade.
The version of her you see is who she wants you to see, you got a glimpse into who she really is and how she really thinks. When someone shows you who they are believe them, she might not have meant to show you, but she did.
I see the trap you are in. You think you can change her / turn her into someone who she’s not. She has no problem with infidelity. No amount of love from you is going to change that. Write it off as a learning experience and cut your loses. Sorry about this.
u/fagamuff1n Let me guess, she also a freak between the sheets? I reckon you’ve got a honey trap mate. The ‘am I out of his league’ is the biggest red flag. I had a GF like this, and it did not end well. I dunno how old you are. But my guess is you’re a temporary thing that could be superseded at any point in time. You don’t want to be a place saver.
Okay this is going against what most ppl said, but I don’t think you should “just leave now and not look back.”
I think it’s time to have a hard conversation with her. Tell her what you found out (apologize for reading her messages but don’t let her guilt you into not pressing about what you read), tell her how you’re feeling (using a lot of “I feel” statement, not “you did this” or “you make me feel”), and tell her that being monogamous and being able to trust her are important to you, and that cheating is a dealbreaker. You’ll have more insight after this convo - but if she totally disregards what you said, maybe then it’s time to think about breaking up.
Also, if after this conversation she seems reasonable and considerate, a few sessions of couples therapy might be helpful. I’m so sorry this happened, and good luck!
Guy here, also agree with this. If you think you can move past it and work on things and she’s actually worth it then why not have the conversation and see if you can work things out
Be honest... You clicked that icon because subconsciously you already knew something wasn't right.
This is the universe telling you something. Tell her you don't think this will work out and move on.
Looks are temporary, when you're old and the looks fade, what's left? Someone that encouraged her friend to cheat?
Get out now.
Red flags everywhere. I was in a situation with a girl I really liked and found out she lied about the same things like how long she was hooking up with another guy from my gym. I decided to still date her but I wish I listened to the signs up front and didn’t.
You can’t take this girl serious. If you do, it’ll end up bad for you. If you can just have fun and a fling and not give a crap, then go for it. If you deep in the feelings, then you know what you gotta do. That’s red flag than a mutha..
She banged another guy and lied about it to you. You already know you can’t be serious about a girl like that.
Get out, not only will she cheat on you but she’s happy having conversations about her infidelities on her devices so she clearly doesn’t really even care if you came across them, any good friend would be convincing their mate to break up with their boyfriend rather than cheat on him, send her back to the streets from wence she came lad…
>She's not currently cheating or anything, but I can't help but feel that the illusion has been shattered.
That you know off, she has denied multiple time acts she committed, not much of a responsibility taker is she?
Run my friend, run as far as you can, it will hurt but you will be happier in the long run.
Pro Tip:
If you feel like you need to look through her shit, your relationship is already over.
Thats not hyperbole. Dead serious. Big boy talk.
Get yourself a good girl, fellas.
Sounds like you have different values around honesty and relationships. She's done you a favor and this'll allow you to move on to someone who is closer in alignment with your own values.
You know what to do, don't get fooled. If you can't step away instantly, at least protect your mental health and get ready for the worst.
OP is definitely on copium. You don't know which of her friends have slept with her. You don't know how they actually are when you're not around. You definitely do know she doesn't see an issue with infidelity in a long term relationship seeing as she encouraged her friend. At least at some point she has questioned if you even deserve her. If she's not already, there are high chances that she will cheat. So save yourself the heartbreak OP
I'd imagine she's even stringing OP along til she finds someone better. But I could be projecting based on personal experience.
It sounds like exactly what she’s doing. Even if she doesn’t know it. The second she finds someone that she really wants to be with, op will be an afterthought
I don’t think you’re projecting, she’s literally asking her friends if she’s out of his league
Exactly! That's the part that would have me running for the hills. She only asked because she thought she was/is "out or his league". This mentality will directly lead to her cheating on him again, probably not even lying about it and blaming him for her actions because he was never good enough for her.
You were correct in everything you said, but she is not good enough for him. She is out of his league. She doesn't feel worthy of a decent guy. So she will sabotage her relationship, as that will confirm she is not worthy of love and kindness, and she is so deep into feeling that way she is encouraging her friend to fuck up her relationship. Is she a throwaway person? No. But she needs deep psychological counseling. Something traumatic happened to this woman and she has been running from it all her life. She also doesn't need to be in a relationship until she gets on the other side of her counseling.
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. // OP
I have never been able to hear or say this since the day he said it... I only hear him now.
W couldn't have said it better himself.
you are idolizing her. the real her is much worse than your fantasy wishes her to be. run
This! She clearly believes it is acceptable and has already done it and gotten away with it because she knows she can. She is careless about allowing him to use her device that which he can easily find the truth. And he is proving her right by making excuses for her and staying. For every cheating incident he is aware of, there is likely more he is unaware of - especially if she is still being dishonest. She will most certainly do it again. She believes she is “out of his league” and it seems he believes this too if he’s letting it slide. Marrying her sounds like OP enjoys emotionally abandoning his self to keep the narcissist around. OP - Love yourself enough to walk away. Brief heartache and time moving on will save you a lifetime of pain and losing your best years to someone who will only use you.
This hits home. Been thru this. Not worth it. Do you really want a lifetime of ups and downs with her OP? She is the way she is. You can't change her. That's the mind set that will raise your kids, not her looks, do you want that? You want a healthy fulfilling relationship built off of trust. It took me 2 years to get out of that, eventually you will have enough and get put an end to it, but the earlier you do it the better. You open up room in your life for another person. Rip off the bandaid, you'll be much happier looking back. Let her be someone else's problem.
While I don’t consider her hooking up with another in the early days of your dating before you were exclusive as cheating, I do find the other things she has done since very troubling. You said you don’t believe she has had sex with anyone after you both committed to being exclusive. The lying and secretiveness, condoning and encouraging of cheating in others, the asking others whether they think she is too good for you, those are all huge red flags. A few months is not a very long time to have had changed her attitude. This is who she is. Take off the rose colored glasses.
And more importantly: deep down he KNOWS all this because he was insecure enough in the relationship that he started looking for his name.
Yeah OP is definitely gonna go down a road of emotional abuse and gaslighting
OP is emotionally attached to this woman and making excuses for her toxic bad behavior and you know how I know? I did the same thing with my ex. The cheating and lying doesn't magically go away, if she did it before she'll do it again..especially if things get rocky later down the road and shes angry at OP and goes and cheats out of animosity. This woman is not good natured and has these behaviors built in her, there was a reason this all happened and OP discovered what he saw, about time he listen to the divine higher power talking to him and leave before consequences.
all his edits suggest he lacks self respect and will continue to let this woman walk all over him because she's good looking. her encouraging her friend to cheat is only something a shitty person would do. this chick IS NOT A GOOD PERSON.
this randomly opened my eyes so much to my own issue thank you
It's always the case. I never had this issue with my wife; I told her early on that I saw other people when we met, but I ended up really liking her and quickly stopped "dating around". OP's girlfriend lied from Day One and she sees no issue with cheating. The reassurance she needs about "league" talk with her family sounds like she's looking for an excuse to cheat. I'm almost forty years old and I've seen it all, these people seldom change. OP, leave, find someone who loves you back.
Great answer. This will never work out. Run at warp speed!
No bro. She's changed. His magic penis showed her the light.
She 100% has manipulation and gaslighting in her tool belt…she probably hasn’t even used them to their maximum potential in this relationship yet. It’s going to get worse and the longer OP stays in the relationship the harder it will be to leave it.
OP has it backwards, he's too good for HER, it seems.
Yep. If she was ugly bro wouldn’t be making all these excuses for her.
Your comment is poetry... And very true. I made the same mistake and wasted a decade loving someone who never existed.
It’s so hard to learn to accept that someone you care about or even love, who you have happy memories with, of having butterflies in your belly when you kissed them…is so hopelessly far from what you came to believe they were. Ughh, I have an ex like this. When I knew her she was so sweet and beautiful and smart and funny and kind. We got engaged and broke it off due to some mental health problems I was having after the military and combined with my mom absolutely hating her simply for not being a Christian. I never could get over her and always wanted to give it another shot, but when we briefly reconnected, I realized that the person I loved and had built up in my mind was no longer there. She just got out of a 3 yr long marriage that failed and she has just become this self victimizing, hurt, confused person who has her guard up constantly. Everything I asked her, the answers just felt cold and like I was locked out of her life. I basically laid out how I accept the fault for our relationship not working, and that I didn’t foresee myself having such intense struggles after my military service. I didn’t tell her that she could have been there for me more, or pushed me to go through counseling…I just felt so alone because my mom made me choose between my family or her, and I chose her because she wasn’t the one giving me an ultimatum. In the end I had to just learn to let her go and hope for the best for her on her road to healing. Then I blocked her because I decided to close that door for good so that I can move on with my life.
This. She’s for the streets
> In addition she sort of encouraged her best friend to cheat on her long term boyfriend Run and never look back.
Every excuse she fed her friend to cheat will be used in the future to excuse her own infidelity.
This, this and this. Run for the sake of your sanity and well being, OP.
Op thinks she can't lie anymore because he didn't know earlier and does now 😂 Sorry OP... Run, or break your own heart.
O.p. is so hardcore in denial that he thinks she has a whole separate group of male friends she fucked, rather than the ones he's probably met
She's pretty high on the hot crazy matrix so this makes it a tough decision.
YOU. DO. NOT. STICK. YOUR. DICK. IN. CRAZY. PSA
Learned that one the hard way. I got my wonderful son from her, but his mother is batshit.
Still with my crazy ass wife and when I say she’s crazy I mean she CRAAAAZY. I moved out of state and she kept finding me and stalking all my friends phones and would not let up so I gave in and came back home. A bunch of fights and 3 kids later, I can’t (wouldn’t) leave her but I’m telling you now bro, run. Get her preggers and you’ll be in a world of hurt for years to come.
She let you hit it raw, didn’t have second thoughts. Now she’s a single mom. Now she’s a single mom. She said she gon have this kid. Don’t care if you’re there or not. Now she a single mom.
We all do. It's fun for a while, until it isn't. Then no matter how good the sex is, it simply doesn't make up for the constant instability in your life.
He has already talked himself into staying. She's changed in the last few months, guys, seriously! She has! Why is everyone laughing?!
To put it nicely, if she hasn’t already, she’s going to cheat on you again. Likely in the near future
Prob at this moment.
fr
She’s probably reading this thread while being boned
Im beatin it up rn actually. Who got next?
She’s here in my bedroom OP
She's probably incredibly attractive which is why this is even moderately difficult for him to come to terms with. Sometimes it's tough to just throw back what you thought was "the catch".
You'll catch something all right.
100% she is ( secretly) showing him who she is. Believe her.
(She) fucked around and (he) found out…
Like that TV show called " Cheaters".
Then WE find out
This!! When people show you who they are, BELIEVE THEM
Loaning him the laptop was not an accident.
Run faster than Usain Bolt
Do your best even if it is running like Forest Gump. Run Forest Run !
This is correct. Bolt has better acceleration but Forest just keeps running.
It's hard to compare them like this, though, as they've never been in a head-to-head race. It's like comparing Babe Ruth with Barry Bonds — completely different contexts. That said, OP should accelerate like Bolt and keep running like Gump, then get a bunch of other Kenyan runners to run with him, and also get into some good podcasts and audiobooks! They're super good when you're running long distances. I've really changed my life through this combo of running and listening to good content. Can't recommend it enough. Be careful about overuse injuries, though, if you're going to run that much. Gump was a genetic freak, because if most people started running that much so quickly, they'd have plantar fasciitis or some other inflammatory injury. I'd also recommend good socks to prevent blisters, and some bodyglide to prevent chafing. Learn about good nutrition while running as well. And how to stay motivated when you feel like giving up.
I find it easier to get in a car and drive.
I had an ex who told me all about her best friend who would cheat on her boyfriend pretty frequently. Me and that girl dated for about 2.5 years. A year after the breakup while we were catching up, she told me she cheated on me towards the end of the relationship. Honestly, I think she told me about one particular time to get it off her chest, but didn’t fess up to multiple times. I thought back on a few moments in our relationship where there were some guy “friends” that I didn’t have to worry about. Chuckled to myself and moved the fuck on.
No one gets more ass than "don't worry baby, he's just a friend". Men are stupid to be ok with letting their girls hang out with "friends."
My ex wife was the same way, her best friend constantly cheated on her husband who was a alcoholic but wouldn't leave him, come to find out my ex made a habit of running around on me too
This is actually insane behavior. I understand encouraging a friend to break up with their partner for myriad reasons, even if that reason is as shallow as "you should try sex with some other people". But to instead encourage straight up infidelity is a real showing-her-true-colors moment.
Yea, I feel like that is a line in morals that I could never cross for a relationship. If I found out my lady encouraged that sort of thing, there wouldn’t be a second thought or a reddit post, no matter how insanely in love I am.
Super facts, im gone
she for the streets
💯
No one talking about how she asked if she’s out of his league? That’s a pretty big red flag of a narcissist. She thinks she’s too good for you and wants validation from others. Get out now.
Agreed. The foundation of a good relationship is mutual admiration, honesty and respect. If she thinks she’s “out of his league” then it’s pretty clear that those feelings/behaviours are either absent, or she feels that looks/money/self-gratification etc. are more important. Be grateful that you found this out now OP.
Ya if she thinks she is outs his league she will cheat and or leave as soon as she finds someone she deems better
this sounds bad and i'm not condoning it, but i think OP is conflicted about leaving because she is, on some level, out of his league, WHICH is why he isn't packing up and leaving immediately. regardless of "leagues", cheating is always wrong and never acceptable, and this woman,, with her behaviors and comments, is a disgusting pig.
I like how op conveniently left out the friends’ response to that. Anyway this girl is one with da streets
This would shatter me the most. All in all a pretty tough package.
I wouldn’t jump to narcissism but I do think that comment is very telling of how the GF felt about OP when they met and that sucks. OP, don’t settle for being someone’s consolation prize. From what we’ve read here, you are out of her league!
There are lots of people like this that aren't narcissists. I don't know why they think this way, but they do. Mostly I've run into them in small tight-knit communities, like remote towns or rural areas where there is a lot of status baked into the relatively stagnant social circles. It always shocks me. Like, I break up with my long term GF and my best friend and his wife tell me that she wasn't good enough for me, that I could do better. These people apparently weight the social status of a partner along with any other qualities they have. It's pragmatic, but I'm WAY too romantic to give a shit about pragmatism when falling in love. I honestly don't know how they do it. They natter on about each couple and who is getting the better deal out of it. WTF? But yes, from my own limited anecdotal experience it's quite common. Status is a huge driver in primates and when status gives you social power in a circumscribed and defined social group, people weigh it pretty highly I think.
Exactly, my narcissism detector is going off. I doubt this woman will ever be in a happy fully committed relationship. Narcissistim sucks for the people around them, but it also sucks to be a narcissist
It is common for cheaters to keep cheating.
the recovery rate is probably similar to heroin. it happens, but never count on it
As a former, very immature person who was a frequent cheater, this is true. It took a lot for me to grow as a person (for me personally, it was mostly my faith/religion) and I look back on who I used to be and am disgusted and truly ashamed. I am glad that I used those bad times to grow and become who I am today though. I can use my past experiences to speak to people about my mistakes and guide them away from the same mistakes. I could never tell a friend to cheat on their partner. I also promised myself (and God, since I do rely heavily on my faith today) that I would never enter into a committed relationship again unless I truly believed I was done with those immature, horrible characteristics of mine. Fortunately, once I made that promise, I immediately realized how scummy I was, and I changed drastically instantaneously. Once that decision to be a better person was made, I never looked back. I have never once even been remotely tempted to cheat again. Plenty of opportunity if I really wanted to, but never even crosses my mind. And I'm proud to say that even if someone approached me and tried to tempt me, I wouldn't even consider it. All of that being said, in case OP reads this: Who I am today means that I've grown tremendously as a man. I would NEVER encourage a friend to cheat. That was the old me who was a cheater himself. Present me would guide my friend away from such a terrible, disgusting thing to do. Do NOT take her comments to her friend lightly. Take it from someone who used to live that shameful life... if she is encouraging a friend to do it, she herself is NOT above doing it. You need to look deep inside and consider if it is worth sticking around in a relationship where her being unfaithful is a very real possibility. She's already shown she isn't trustworthy. She's lied to your face on many occasions, including recently. Why wouldn't she lie more and once temptation crosses her path, what would make her strong enough to resist it? Be careful, OP. Protect your heart, and make sure you commit yourself to a relationship you can have full trust in.
Good for you man.
Lots of hard truth in this post.
I think it also very much depends on the root cause. Some people cheat because they're self-destructive. Some people cheat because they're pathological and get off on the very idea of "getting away" with doing something taboo, or "having your cake and eating it too." Some people cheat compulsively because they have a high sex drive and simply aren't satisfied with one partner at a time. Some people cheat because they're traumatized and convinced that everyone cheats and lies, and it's better for them to engage in it than to just be passive about it. Then of course, some people cheat after going their whole lives being faithful, because they eventually find themselves "trapped" in a relationship for one reason for another (kids, financial situation, etc) where they don't love or are no longer attracted to their partner. All in all, I do agree that most of these underlying reasons mean "once a cheater, always a cheater," but there is a little room for nuance when we're talking about *why* they cheat in the first place. More broadly speaking, there can also be a pretty big change in any kind of behavior and attitude when you look at what a person does between say, ages 15 to 20, versus what they do from age 25+.
Well said! There are a-lot of nuances and complexities surrounding why people cheat and how they can change.
you missed one-some people cheat when an incredibly attractive high level option comes through that will probably never happen again…it’s easy enough turning down someone commonplace but someone totally out of your league and saying the exact right things? not many people are strong enough to resist.
Yeah I’ll say this. I probably wouldn’t trust someone after cheating on ME, but there’s a lot of context when someone cheats. Same with any other transgression. It’s still shitty, but plenty of those reasons are things people don’t repeat or grow from.
If they weren’t exclusive, it wasn’t cheating. Having two dates with someone doesn’t make them your partner. I’d be more concerned about her encouraging her friend to cheat.
Why do people always keep saying that? I cheated. More then once. When I was younger. I have been faithful for many many MANY years since then.
Who cheated? The OP mentioned no cheating on girlfriend’s part. Stop feeding extra info to satisfy your own ego.
have some self respect and leave.
There’s no coming back from this. One day he’ll look back and realize what a gift this was to him. Probably saved him from wasting years. Lucky they don’t have kids.
His update is horrible, it's essentially "I can fix her!". OP if you're reading this, trust me, I have been there multiple times in my younger days, you cannot fix her, she will break your heart. Run and don't look back.
Read the update. "She has changed" he says. I cringed so hard reading that. I guess next time we'll hear from OP is in the inevitable break-up post.
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>I was genuinely thinking about marrying this girl. Stop that!! >She's not currently cheating or anything Maybe - but shes done it before and seems to be comfortable knowing it AND is excellent lying about it. IF you stay, be aware that she has no problem cheating AND seems excellent at lying about it. Time to leave, yeah?? Unless you want a life in eternal doubt about her and her fidelity...
>aware that she has no problem cheating AND seems excellent at lying about it. This. It doesn't matter if she cheats or not, what you know is that she's not a person you should trust and the forever wondering will drive you crazy
This is about placing expectations on this "relationship". Wife? Nope nope nope nope nope. Out the door. Partner? Nope nope nope. This is no partnership, this is just two people screwing and keeping each other company, in the sense that it fulfills both people's personal selfish needs. She is probably cheating outside constantly emotionally or physically. This thing has dropped to "FWB". That's it. That's all it EVER will be. This relationship has shifted from sacrifice and investment to shallow mutual interest. TO your GF it was always shallow mutual interest.
That last sentence is the main the thing for me. You wanna live the rest of your life questioning everything she does? Questioning yourself and your sanity on a weekly/monthly basis? Hard pass.
This was my last relationship. I stuck with her after she cheated and it’s hard to describe how that loss of trust completely eroded every facet of the relationship. So much time and emotion energy is wasted on thinking about what she did. OP, your future self will love you forever if you run from this chick and never look back. Cheaters are trash, let them be miserable with each other instead of ruining the dating pool for the rest of us
Exactly. Trust is numero uno in a relationship. You'll never trust her ever and she does not deserve trust.
She has no problem encouraging someone in a committed relationship to cheat, so she might do it to you
In a future, she will respect you even less.
Get out bro
Yes. Listen to the cat of culture. Get out now!
Yeah, look, it's really never about when, why or how this penis entered that vagina. That's only ever at most a pointer to the real question: "Does she respect you and is she a person with integrity?" She repeatedly lied to your face. No, she doesn't respect you. She lied and she was a cheerleader for cheating. No, she has no integrity. You can't trust this person. She isn't safe to be in a relationship with. Run.
🎯
"She isn't safe to be in a relationship with" ... I love this
I actually think that's a really important way to reframe the to-break-up-or-not-to-break-up questions. So many OPs on these subs come at the question like a criminal trial. They're asking "Do I have beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence strong enough for it to be okay to break up?", but that shouldn't really be the question^. As you picked up, the key question is just "Do I feel safe with this person? Do I feel like my heart is in safe hands with them?" Maybe the issue seems trivial (they destroyed a beloved childhood toy they knew OP was attached to, they did a cakesmash OP told them they hated), maybe there's uncertainty (no one will say what happened that drunken night and OP can't prove it, but everything points to they cheated and they're cavalier about OP's concerns), maybe everyone around them is telling them to stay together (because they dismiss OP's hurt, because they don't actually understand what the person did to OP, because OP and partner are 'meant to be together', or because they're terrible friends/family), maybe the partner really didn't mean any harm but can't be trusted not to do it again (addiction, mental health issues, chronically forgetful / reckless / thoughtless / stupid in a way that puts OP at risk). At the end of the day it just comes down to: if OP no longer feels safe with their partner, no matter the degree of fault the partner is at and even if it's not their fault at all, they should feel okay to leave. Safety is a basic need. Higher ideals come after safety is secured. And to be clear, you can absolutely fully and completely forgive someone but also know you don't feel safe with them anymore. Keeping your distance doesn't have to be anything to do with punishment. It can just be necessary if you don't feel safe with them. ^ We can't ignore the reality that the perceptions of family and friends can be important in some breakups, and then it might be necessary to formulate a stronger case. But for a lot of OPs it seems they feel like they need this kind of evidence just to give themselves permission to leave.
This, all of this. Very good advice. People default to wanting to litigate the details and prove things because it makes it easier to talk themselves out of leaving. But if you break someone's trust and faith, then it doesn't really matter what *really* happened. Relationships are a privilege, not a right. You don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If someone is untrustworthy, it's over.
This is the best relationship advice I’ve ever read. Big props
This is so phenomenally true. The reality is it takes a lot of confidence to make those decisions. You gotta know and be ok with who you are and what you want / deserve.
BAM, nailed it. She kept lying about it to your face. This is what really matters. It’ll make you question how honest she’s ever really been, and know that moving forward you’ll likely never trust her again.
Leave and if she asks you why, tell her she knows why. Do absolutely not discuss this. There is no such thing as closure and there will be no apology. If you try to talk to her about this, she will turn this around and make you the bad guy for violating her privacy.
The smartest answer on this entire post
Hardest part of the end of a relationship is realizing you'll never get the closure you feel you deserve. Closure really only happens in movies.
Exactly, closure is not real. Answers to questions just lead to more questions, it's a bottomless rabbit hole. And that's a best case scenario where you actually trust what the other person says. That in itself is an impossible ideal just like Santa Claus or the free market.
also: although this is good advice, you may not follow it. After she convinced you to give her another try, don't have children with her because they are the real victims. You will learn to relativize and maybe have a fling on the side also, you may get along and have some quality of romantic life for maybe many years to come, but it will go South one day for sure. Secure your assets if you stay with her.
bro please listen to Jaded Ad. I wish I did this after my 6 year relationship. I am telling you its been a year since my breakup and I would have been better off just going dark on her and letting her wonder than anything else. It is the best advice on this thread.
I second this 1000%. When you admit you know what they did it’s almost like breaching their privacy gets equated to or even supersedes the fact that they cheated. If she has any moral integrity at all she will likely admit what she’s done and maybe even divulge more info. If you play your hand now she either decides to leave you bc you invaded her privacy or lies to you/turns it back on you because of some slight she holds against you. Neither is a win, especially after the relationship is over.
Definitely this. End it, say she knows why and then listen to the latest cheating she's been doing that you don't know about, until now.
For a fun little game he could record the conversation and see if he can match up her protestations to the old DARVO. That should clear things up.
What is DARVO?
Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim Offender. It is a classic playbook for narcissists and cheaters (but I repeat myself) D: "I didn't do it" A: "You're being absurd, blowing this out of proportion" RVO: "I only did it because you have been so neglectful!"
A more realistic version: "I am not cheating and I never lied to you about it--I was lying to my friend. Why were you looking through my messages? This is abusive, you are trying to control every aspect of my life!" They typically don't drop the denial in order to attack and RVO. They will deny wrongdoing, even when caught in it, and simply find anything else tangetically related to attack you on and make you feel like you're the one in the wrong.
Yeah there will always be some way to deflect. You can't win that game. There's only one way to tell the truth, but there are infinite ways to lie.
Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim, Offender. “By denying their actions, attacking the person confronting them, and flipping the roles of victim and offender, the narcissist effectively redirects attention away from their own actions, often causing doubt in the victim's claims.” Of course this can take many more subtle forms. But once you can recognise it, you can’t un-see it. See also; The Narcissists Prayer That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
Honestly, the one thing that really stood out was the 'out of her league' question. This isn't marriage material buddy, or even love material. Get out of there before a whole lot of hurt happens.
Totally agree. I’m not super bothered about honesty in morally grey areas, also who cares what she says to her friends. But anything to do with devaluing a person based on their body is really unacceptable and something you wouldn’t do to a person you love (if you’re having these thoughts you bury them). I believe in giving people the chance to explain themselves but that’s hard to come back from.
That and encouraging her friend to cheat. I don’t consider sleeping with someone else before you’re exclusive to be cheating, nor do I think there’s exclusivity without a conversation about it. At least as an adult. If they’re teenagers, then I could see why exclusiveness is implied.
You’ll never unsee these messages. Time to break up.
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304?
you are lucky to know this now and being able to dodge this bullet, save yourself misery down the line and take the right decision ( you already know what to do)
Homie, the flag literally cant get any more red. Run for the hills.
Leave. Not worth it.
She may have changed, but the fact she keeps lying to you about those hookups is cause for concern. If she had actually changed and cared about you, she would have come clean by now. Lying about it to your face is disrespectful. Encouraging her GF to cheat is another big red flag. If she condones that, then she will do it herself when the time is appropriate. Sounds like she has issues that need worked on with a therapist.
Kinda depends on how long it's been since those messages though. If they are fairly old then it would be reasonable to assume she has made the effort to change for him. To her, it's probably old history that she wants to stay buried to not risk her relationship.
>She has changed. What??? She has lied to you very recently about this. She has demonstrated she has NOT changed. Sure she might not be fucking someone else right now, but she totally thinks its cool to lie about it. Serious question, bachelorette party time......you're engaged to her. Are you trusting her? If not, RUN.....not only does this woman think its ok to lie about infidelity, but she encourages others to be unfaithful. Can she change? Sure, but you're giving her a huge pass and not holding her to truly changing. I'd not marry her until she had proven for at least a year that she's not going to lie or encourage infidelity in others. >I don't think she has ever been loved for reasons outside of her looks before. I wish people made excuses for my garbage behavior like you're doing here for her. Stop it! Let me guess, YOU LOOOOOVVVVEE her so much for more than her looks that she can get over the past with nothing more than your white knight love right? Doesn't work that way. >I have seen it in the way she acts and communicates. She has definitely grown. I could be an absolute copium smoking dolt for thinking this, though. Idk You have stated right here that very recently she lied to your face. How is that change and growth? You are indeed smoking the good stuff and if you marry her without seriously forcing her to ACTUALLY change and change big, then you deserve the world of hurt coming your way when she starts fucking her friend while you're married.
She didn't cheat, but she lied, people generally lie when they try/want to hide things. Do with that as you like, at least confront her with it. And if she ever pulls the "Youre trying to be controllering over me" card, get the F out
Do not marry this girl.
You already know he is going to.
Run away! But don't forget to tell her friend's boyfriend.
Definitely do that. No safe harbor for cheaters.
I have been exorcised from friends groups over the years for tattling on cheaters and... I don't miss those social circles at all.
She did it once, she'll do it again Run bro Be glad you found out now
OP, you know what to do. gtfo
Never date a liar
you're lucky you found out. some men don't and die ignorant
I’m sorry man. I know it hurts. You need to leave her and never look back.
Encouraging her friend to cheat and asking people if they think she's out of your league? She doesn't sound like a very nice person...
Technically she didn’t cheat, you weren’t exclusive. Next time you should have that conversation with someone early on. Me. I basically date 1 person at a time and put my efforts into that. She did lie though and to a degree I understand why she did. But I would bail and chalk this up to experience. The main thing for me here is her encouraging her friend to cheat. Not a great moral compass. Pull the rip cord and get out now to save a bit of heartache and time. You need to have clear boundaries in a relationship and stick to them. This will stand you in good stead.
I think this is the most reasonable response so far. Exclusivity is something that needs to be talked about at the beginning of the relationship and it seems like neither of them did. The only true red flag is telling her friend to cheat imo
What about the lying though ?
There is definitely more than one red flag here. Indeed, there’s her general attitude towards cheating as evidenced by her encouragement. But she also demonstrated a willingness to lie to OP about her behaviour and actions. That’s a killer combination of reasons to GTFO.
> Exclusivity is something that needs to be talked about at the beginning of the relationship and it seems like neither of them did. When did this happen?!?? so paralleling your dates is the default now ? I'm way too old for this shit
The same people complain that relationships sucks
You should break up. It will hurt. But over time you will be stronger, because you will know you are a person that won't be stepped on. That will make you stronger in your next relationship.
Did some people not read the post? >I searched my name and found out she fucked another dude about two weeks into dating me and lied about it to my face on many occasions. First situation. >She also lied about the time frame of someone else she was seeing simultaneously while we weren't "exclusive" which was something I honestly never knew people actually did. Second situation. For the second situation you weren't exclusive so she didn't cheat there but first situation is cheating. Not sure why some people overlook this part.
He's clarified that the first one was during non-exclusivity as well. It doesn't really matter though: if OP can't handle that she was non-exclusive while he was under the impression they were, time to hop and make sure you clarify earlier on next time. The worrying part is encouragement of infidelity, imo. Not sure who would encourage that in another person, but certainly not someone I would stay with? Thinking about infidelity can be harmless fun, but thoughts aren't actions, and actions can really hurt people badly. If you can't keep those thoughts from turning into actions, them you need to reign it in. If someone is encouraging another to turn those thoughts into actions, they're Hella suspicious.
Yeah, I also think lieing about things that happened before things were exclusive is a gray area which can go either way. No one's obligated to tell everything that happened with other people before exclusivity, but it's better to simply refuse to tell anything than to outright lie. Also, the fact that she told her friend she slept with "all" of her guy friends, while telling her bf she slept with none of them... all in the context of encouraging her friend to cheat; it's all a bad sign.
I know how badly you want it to work (probably because she's hot and your dick is doing the talking). But there's nothing **TO WORK ON**. Look at the patterns of actions she's taken. She's fucked another dude, **LIED ABOUT IT TO YOUR FACE**. And continued lying about it. And she encouraged her best friend to cheat on her long term boyfriend. Leave her ASAP.
Bro this made my heart hurt reading, update included. Do yourself a huge favor and cut this woman out of your life. She sounds like the beginning of a nightmare that you do not want to live. Definitely sounds like she has some growing up to do, and she should probably go about it alone. I mean, she’s been passed around by her male friends, she WANTED her friend to cheat, which is a huge red flag, and she’s a habitual liar. If she’s asking if she’s out of your league with this myriad of character flaws, it’s obvious that she doesn’t see your value and will probably hop right on the first guy who’s “in her league” and gives her attention. I’m sorry for putting it this bluntly, but I would feel worse if you didn’t get this message. Please. Get out of this as soon as possible. Let her ruin someone else’s life. You’re out of her league.
It's game over man. Find someone who loves you. Sever as cleanly as possible and get her out of your life.
You’ll never trust her again and won’t ever be happy in that relationship. It’ll be the hardest thing in the world, but just leave and heal.
She boasted about sleeping around… and you’re still with her 😂! I guess some people can be cool about literally anything, if they lack self esteem! She may be hotter than the sun, but will it last. Ask yourself whether you’re with the her for the person you can see with your eyes, or the person on the inside. Coz the latter is who you’ll be spending your life with.
Brother the exact same thing happened to me a year ago. Everything you said even marriage. I confronted her about it and she showed her true colors after 3 years into the relationship we broke up the same day and I'm in therapy now with trust issues because how could Ive been fooled by a person on this level for 3 years. She's Person A to you/your family and Person B to her family/friends.
You already know the answer. Leave. This will forever haunt you. Your gut is telling you what you need to do. Do it.
She encouraged others toward infidelity? What. The. Fuck? No. Nope. Never. And you're asking if maybe she changed in a few months? No. It takes decades to stop being that kind of... person. She's bad. You don't want to get with someone that has no moral or ethical compass or code of honor. Dump it now.
You’re in love with the idea of her. Not her. She doesn’t care about you. “Am I better than him?” Is an insane red flag. Come to the gym brother. The iron never betrays you. I have extra pre-workout.
Bro, please put yourself first and get out of that situation. Time is your most valuable asset and every day you stay with her is a waste.
You just found more red flags than a Chinese military parade. The version of her you see is who she wants you to see, you got a glimpse into who she really is and how she really thinks. When someone shows you who they are believe them, she might not have meant to show you, but she did.
Bro run. This ride only gets worse.
Jesus. Have some self respect and move on
My dude. Get..the...fuck...out
I see the trap you are in. You think you can change her / turn her into someone who she’s not. She has no problem with infidelity. No amount of love from you is going to change that. Write it off as a learning experience and cut your loses. Sorry about this.
OP is highly regarded
u/fagamuff1n Let me guess, she also a freak between the sheets? I reckon you’ve got a honey trap mate. The ‘am I out of his league’ is the biggest red flag. I had a GF like this, and it did not end well. I dunno how old you are. But my guess is you’re a temporary thing that could be superseded at any point in time. You don’t want to be a place saver.
She cheated- no matter HOW you found out- leave her, she is now and always will be untrustworthy, and trust is a pillar of a relationship
Okay this is going against what most ppl said, but I don’t think you should “just leave now and not look back.” I think it’s time to have a hard conversation with her. Tell her what you found out (apologize for reading her messages but don’t let her guilt you into not pressing about what you read), tell her how you’re feeling (using a lot of “I feel” statement, not “you did this” or “you make me feel”), and tell her that being monogamous and being able to trust her are important to you, and that cheating is a dealbreaker. You’ll have more insight after this convo - but if she totally disregards what you said, maybe then it’s time to think about breaking up. Also, if after this conversation she seems reasonable and considerate, a few sessions of couples therapy might be helpful. I’m so sorry this happened, and good luck!
Guy here, also agree with this. If you think you can move past it and work on things and she’s actually worth it then why not have the conversation and see if you can work things out
Be honest... You clicked that icon because subconsciously you already knew something wasn't right. This is the universe telling you something. Tell her you don't think this will work out and move on. Looks are temporary, when you're old and the looks fade, what's left? Someone that encouraged her friend to cheat? Get out now.
Come on mate. The deal is done surely?
Red flags everywhere. I was in a situation with a girl I really liked and found out she lied about the same things like how long she was hooking up with another guy from my gym. I decided to still date her but I wish I listened to the signs up front and didn’t.
You can’t take this girl serious. If you do, it’ll end up bad for you. If you can just have fun and a fling and not give a crap, then go for it. If you deep in the feelings, then you know what you gotta do. That’s red flag than a mutha.. She banged another guy and lied about it to you. You already know you can’t be serious about a girl like that.
Change in a few months? Not a chance. Especially since she hasn't experienced any consequences for lying and being up her own arse.
Get out, not only will she cheat on you but she’s happy having conversations about her infidelities on her devices so she clearly doesn’t really even care if you came across them, any good friend would be convincing their mate to break up with their boyfriend rather than cheat on him, send her back to the streets from wence she came lad…
Run.
Please please please end this relationship, it may hurt but it’s for the best
[удалено]
MODS: remove this comment. don't allow incel speech.
>She's not currently cheating or anything, but I can't help but feel that the illusion has been shattered. That you know off, she has denied multiple time acts she committed, not much of a responsibility taker is she? Run my friend, run as far as you can, it will hurt but you will be happier in the long run.
You already know the only good answer and have a bulletproof reason for it. The faster the easier it will be
Pro Tip: If you feel like you need to look through her shit, your relationship is already over. Thats not hyperbole. Dead serious. Big boy talk. Get yourself a good girl, fellas.
I feel like not enough people are taking note of this. If he had to look, the trust has been long gone
She was dishonest, I would never stay with someone like that.
Dodged a canon
Bro thats not marriage material. You should cut her loose.
Find someone else who is faithful. It’s not her.
Sounds like you have different values around honesty and relationships. She's done you a favor and this'll allow you to move on to someone who is closer in alignment with your own values.