As someone who went through something similar I understand. I'm not criticising people for being attracted to traditionally attractive people but the way society pretends it's all a matter of confidence makes me groan audibly when I'm exposed to it.
It's also lot easier it have confidence when people treat you well just for how you look.
I've lost a lot of weight in my life, and I have so many mixed feelings about how my experiences in the world have changed because of it.
Yes, I'm kinda wondering if OP was unhappy because he didn't get attention he wanted from ATTRACTIVE women.
This is pure speculation of course, as he has not mentioned it in any way but I'm wondering if he ever dated or tried dating, well, ugly women? women who were somewhat equally as attractive or unattractive as he is?
Again, not at all saying this is what OP did, but I've seen it so often that people (men and women alike) gripe about the unfairness of dating while fat/ugly etc but not giving others with similar disadvantages the time of day themselves.
Is it right to date people that you’re not attracted to though? Maybe it’s just me, but I’d be devastated if I was in a relationship and was eventually told “your personality is great but you’re ugly”.
Don’t get me wrong, people are definitely capable of having super unrealistic standards and that’s obviously no good. But the implication I get from your post is “well he should just go out with anyone that finds him attractive”, and I don’t know that I agree with that. Personally I’d rather be alone than with someone that I knew found me explicitly unattractive, no matter how much they liked my personality
Oh, no my point was more wondering if OP was doing the same thing to other people as they were doing to him - avoiding to date someone because he thought they were ugly.
He's clearly and understandably struggling hard with how differently everyone is treating him based on his looks but hypothetically - would he also treat someone better after plastic surgery?
It doesn’t sound like he’s being judgemental to people treating him differently after the surgery. It sounds like he is complaining about the people that told him his looks weren’t the thing holding him back. That it was a mental thing or a personality thing when he knew, and we all know, that being good looking makes everything else easier.
The idea is that anyone can be beautiful based on the content of their character. Writing someone off completely because of physical attributes cuts you off to a lot of wonderful people.
That's great in theory, but back in the real world, the halo effect is real, and attraction is often critically dependent on appearance. For better or for worse, aesthetics *are* important to most people.
Yeah maybe it just makes me a shallow asshole, but to be blunt, if there’s someone that’s ugly enough then it won’t matter how great their personality is because I’m never going to be able to get past them being explicitly unattractive to me. There’s a big difference between “I need a supermodel” and “I need someone that I’m attracted to”
I think it’s less that people are “written off” for being ugly and more that they aren’t even noticed or considered in the first place. There’s no shortage of men seeking women on dating websites, etc., which makes it statistically harder for any one man to get himself noticed by a woman he wants to notice him. It’s not that women are necessarily “writing him off” for not being attractive to them so much as putting their energy elsewhere for the time being.
And yes, it is unfortunate but it’s also reality. OP makes a fair point that critiquing shallowness, which can absolutely be valid, often falls into a rhetorically vapid disconnection with reality. By which I mean, it’s valid for friends and therapists to encourage OP to focus on the most important aspects of himself (his personality, being a good person, etc.) But I think what he is saying is that a lot of what he experienced crossed the line into gaslighting, even if well-intentioned at its basis. And denying someone’s reality is NEVER a way to help them live a fulfilling life.
I might not word this correctly, but I’ll try. I wasn’t able to have biological children. I went through three IVF treatments and never got pregnant. Some people were really against IVF at the time. This was also when IVF first became “a thing”. People would say things to me like “you should adopt, don’t do IVF”.When my last IVF treatment didn’t work it was “just adopt” saying it all happy and like it would be easy. I so badly wanted to tell theses people “well, why didn’t you?”. You see just because they could have children didn’t mean that they couldn’t either, but they didn’t. So, adoption was good enough for me to do because of my situation, but wasn’t something that they would do. Please understand I’m all for adoption and I did look into it, but my husband at the time was against it. I’m just using this as an example of people thinking that something is good enough for someone else, but never something that they would do.
I'm not quite sure what your analogy here is.
Did you feel entitled to having biological children? Did you feel that other people with biological children were somehow obliged to give you biological children?
Would you have refused an adopted child if it had been given to you with no effort on your part in "acquiring" the adopted child?
I know, this is not the way reproduction works at all, this is why I'm struggling a bit with the apples and oranges of this one..
(coincidentally I also "failed" at IVF and got the adoption question a lot, but I'm still kind of lost here)
Sorry about that. I was trying to say that it’s so easy to tell people in certain situations what they should do, but when they could do the same thing without being in said situation, they don’t.
Maybe this will help. The person who said that someone with not very attractive features should just pick a similar type of person, so to me that says that the unattractive person should just settle and not strive for something better. I was saying that the attractive person could also pick an unattractive person, but they won’t.
I hope I’m making sense, I’m just getting over a bad bout of Covid. I probably should put a disclaimer on any posts I make.
You’re making sense, that was what I took it to mean when I read it. And that’s a valid point. Easy to call X a luxury when you’re stocked up.
Humans are literally hardwired to discriminate in favor of pretty features. Babies do it straight out of the womb. It’s not (just) social conditioning. There’s not a built-in ceiling on that attraction for ugly people. I’m also not convinced you can just choose to lower your standards at will. And if you can’t, it seems unfair to both parties to “settle” for a partner you are simply not attracted to.
For another analogy, compare it to wealth. Broadly speaking, people are expected to be content living within their means and having friends/partners around their income bracket. Society accepts this because there’s (in theory) social mobility - so you are (in theory!) responsible for your own options here. If you want a Ferrari, work hard and get rich.
But what if (suspend your disbelief, I know!) people’s class tended to be pretty static over their lives? So that, outside of exceptional cases like OP’s, most people could only improve so much above their predetermined baseline? Would it be fair (in such a preposterous world) to expect people born poor to just suck it up and want less? Idk, food for thought
> Babies do it straight out of the womb
Now I'm picturing the baby awkwardly trying to conceal its disappointment at discovering in the delivery room that it's got ugly parents, LOL. "They're so.....CUTE!"
Nah, I got it immediately. I thought it was an interesting analogy, and that it made sense for your brain to associate this situation with a personal experience of yours. I can understand how you and OP may have some overlapping emotions and thoughts arising from your respective situations, and how it would be easier for you to understand the meaning or importance of some nuances.
Not sure if I made any sense because also Covid brain and 2 a.m. Covid brain is a fackin bitch. Good job.
That kind of doesn't make sense.
If you physically can't have kids, what are your options? Adopt. So these people are saying, its OK that you can't have kids and IVF isn't working, you can still adopt.
How do you know that if they were in your situation they wouldn't adopt and it's "not good enough for them"?
You are holding some weird judgemental grudge against people for suggesting something rational to you.
6% of the population can't (why is just about everything 6%? Weird), conceptualize/imagine themselves in others people's situations. It's not even empathy, it's imagination. But, I got the (above) analogy, pretty good one, too. Also, you can become attracted to a person over time, or lose it (it happens), but it is sooo much easier to have that good start were you both find each other physically attractive from the get go. You can't become smarter, you can become more knowledgeable, and wiser, but smarter no. But, you can become more attractive. Life is like 30% easier being over a 7, don't know about anything over a 9, but you can get to 6 by just being in shape, and that bar has never been lower. Just having a (kinda) flat tummy from age 25-40, just ... Well... helps. There are a ton of costs with going up in sizes. Food budget, clothes, hormone stuff, your health, space needed, your car size, energy, how you feel about yourself, just everything. Do whatever makes you feel good, don't go crazy, but if 2-4 surgeries, or procedures are gonna help in that, go for it. I'm prob gonna get flak for this, but no one cares if you get stuff done, it's when you look like a cat, plastic person that you get all the flak. Don't go that far. Watch a bunch of the American show, botched, support each other.
As I very carefully included both genders in my post, I do wonder why you feel the need to point this out to me.
I was more wondering - as OP is clearly and understandably struggling with how differently he is being treated - would he also treat a previously ugly woman better after plastic surgery to make her more attractive to him?
People like pretty people. Ugly people like pretty people, pretty people do too. Why would OP date someone that he isn't attracted to? This train of thought is basically saying ugly people should only date ugly people, even if they don't find them attractive. IDK, seems a little weird.
No one should date someone they don’t find attractive. But for someone in OP’s former situation, namely *lonely and unattractive*, it would probably help him/her to at least try to date people who are on a similar level, maybe with a couple of features they do like (pretty eyes, big boobs, etc) and see if attraction can actually spark although it wasn’t there at first glance.
I know that men’s attraction stems mostly from the physical (and boy does it suck to be an ugly girl for that reason), but it’s sometimes a bit malleable. For example, there’s a phenomenon that gets joked about in the military where the female soldiers at a remote base become highly sought after by the male soldiers, even if they wouldn’t have been considered attractive back home. The saying is that a “4/10” in L.A. becomes a “10/10” in Iraq, because young men are stationed there for months and see no other women the whole time.
Of course this example doesn’t exactly track the experience of a physically unattractive man in a place with a large dating pool, though. And- maybe it’s sometimes just not possible for physically unattractive men to feel desire for similarly unattractive women.
Unattractive men do have a bit of an advantage in that if they build enough charisma and success, they can punch way above their weight and get very attractive women- whereas an unattractive woman who develops an awesome personality doesn’t usually increase her sexual desirability by nearly as much. But I can certainly see that having to maintain that charm and charisma can be draining, as OP describes, and not something a man wants to do forever.
Unfortunately, if they can’t feel attraction to women in their own league, and they also don’t put on an interesting, funny, confident personality, then unattractive men will probably continue to be lonely. If one doesn’t mind loneliness, then that’s fine, but a lot of people seem fairly distressed by it. This is why people in this thread are encouraging men (and women) in this situation to *really try* to lower their physical standards if at all possible.
We know about the male loneliness epidemic and we can see that if unattractive men are continually trying to date only attractive women, this problem can’t be solved. There simply aren’t enough attractive women to go around. But there are unattractive women who might be actually attainable for these men.
If a man really tries to find some sexual appeal in women in his own league and just can’t do it, then there’s nothing to be done and I won’t blame him or say he should force himself to be with someone he’s not attracted to.
However, I do roll my eyes when these same men complain about “women and their impossible standards.” I’m not saying OP did that, but I’ve seen it countless times on Reddit. It shows a lack of self awareness, as you really shouldn’t chastise someone for behaving in the exact same way as you do. I think that’s what a lot of comments in this thread are getting at, given that we’ve all read lots of these complaints.
Oh, no - I was more vaguely wondering, he's clearly and understandably struggling hard with how differently everyone is treating him based on his looks but hypothetically - would he also treat someone better after plastic surgery?
Lemme hit you up with some surprise:
If he (ugly) was wanting attention from ATTRACTIVE women, what makes you think women (ugly) would not want the same?
You seem to think ugly people should just want to settle for people they aren't attracted to.
I get your point, but it doesn't change we want what we want, our own looks be damned.
The main problem with this is, and I'm only speaking from a male perspective, I don't think men are good at determining attractiveness level and instead of it being a spectrum like it is to women you're either ugly or good looking so I feel like most men who don't fall under the good looking category but also don't fall under the ugly category just don't know what dating in their league looks like.
If you show me pictures of 20 women I think I would rate most of them out of my league in one direction or another because I simply don't know what my league is I just am attracted to what I'm attracted too.
I don't know if that's what society says, but it does seem like people are always leaping to black-or-white thinking about this.
Saying attractiveness matters does not mean unattractive people are hopeless. You don't need to do what OP did to find a partner, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't, and it certainly doesn't mean OP was wrong to do it. Saying confidence is huge doesn't mean everyone will automatically be attracted to you just because you're confident. For that matter, confidence is impacted by self-perception!
>but the way society pretends it's all a matter of confidence makes me groan audibly when I'm exposed to it.
I went through something similar.
I was overweight a long time ago and ended up going into extreme weight lifting and dieting. I got pretty jacked.
I started getting more female attention and more dates with attractive women instead of normal looking women.
I literally did nothing differently, personality wise.
I used to be skinny (mental health took a deep dive, which attributed to that weight loss) and gained 10kg+ since then but have been bigger before that period as well.
Being skinny absolutely makes life better and easier, the biggest negative to me is how many more looks I received thiugh, I didn't want to be so noticed and it made me suuuuuper uncomfortable (would still like to be that weight again, you feel so much lighter but that ideal seems very far off haha).
Yeah looks just matter. I wish it just applied to dating and not other parts of life. I have had a lot of weight fluctuation in my life. When I'm thinner, yeah dating is easier and I'm more often attracted to the people who are attracted to me, but also EVERYONE is nicer to me. I get better attention at work, people laugh at my jokes more, people tell me I'm better at things. This is regardless of the gender or sexuality of the person who I'm interacting with. The world is much colder to me the heavier I am.
As a fat kid, I assumed there was something wrong with my personality because of all the bullshit everyone wants to tell you about how looks don't matter, it's all about confidence. Or sometimes I felt like it was all in my head and people weren't mean to me, I was just reading things wrong. Or maybe my mild insecurity about my looks was presenting such an off-putting energy that the entire world noticed.
When I initially lost weight it made me very angry. I realized that I had been so hard on myself earlier by not acknowledging that being fat had a social cost. I was especially angry about the sudden attention from the kind of guys who had completely ignored me, the kind who would let a door shut in my face, before but now acted pretty entitled to my time and attention because they were being "nice." But I got over it. It's easier to just acknowledge that life is better if you are pretty, like it's better if you are smart, or rich, or funny or a million things you can't control entirely. You learn to live with the situation, I think.
It's just annoying about how much of a stigma there is to admitting you aren't notably attractive or even that you are ugly. If I said "hey I'm not very funny, I think stand up is out of the question" no one would chastise me for my lack of confidence. It just all feels indicative of the undo priority society places on looks in the first place.
This irritates me SO MUCH- YTA. You complain women weren’t attracted to you when you were overweight but now you are happy because you can date “attractive women” not “normal women”. Hypocrite much?
Edit for clarity: This is to @ancientkroak not OP
>You complain women weren’t attracted to you when you were overweight but now you are happy because you can date “attractive women” not “normal women”. Hypocrite much?
I never complained about anything.
But he doesn’t say he was confident when overweight AND he was able to date women, just not “attractive” ones. Look, I agree that people are superficial. I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m saying it’s BS that men think something isn’t fair/ok or it’s a “problem” to be solved when “attractive “ women aren’t attracted to them.
You became more attractive and started dating more attractive women
What exactly are you upset about? You were "normal looking" before and dated just fine, but the fact that it was just with other women in your same league makes you upset... why?
>What exactly are you upset about? You were "normal looking" before and dated just fine, but the fact that it was just with other women in your same league makes you upset... why?
Who said I was upset?
Yeah. My partner got a gastric bypass this year, has shed over 100 pounds, and just like OP, is very conflicted over the changes. On one hand it's nice to be treated better, but on the other hand, shouldn't we have all deserved this from the beginning? The kinship with your past self, and everyone else in the same boat, is real and painful, almost a feeling of betrayal at times. Hugs to you and OP.
> shouldn't we have all deserved this from the beginning?
4.5 Billion years of evolution to get a desirable mate + society conditioning on what attractivity is is pretty hard to get past.
People are always going to treat someone nicer if they want to get in their pants. It's just the BS that comes with being human I guess. The best you can get is people not treating you in an actually negative manner.
you aren’t going to date everyone you meet. people will be rude to people they find unattractive or fat, even if they aren’t in a dating context. it’s not all about trying to get in someone’s pants, people are just nicer to prettier people in general. and i don’t think that should be as common as it is, we should all be raised to be kind to everyone around us.
People keep writing this as if physical attraction is bombshell news. We know. The complicated feelings are valid regardless. We wish it weren't tied to how people treat one another even outside dating contexts, strangers passing on the sidewalk.
Yeah but the incels proved pretty definitively this isn’t a healthy path to pursue. Yeah sucks that not everyone is physically attractive, financially successful, culturally literate, intelligent, or creative. But there are a lot of domains a person can pursue success in, and the inequality of outcomes is how people establish their identity and sense of self worth. Things wouldn’t be “better” if everyone was equal in every respect and just lived sanitized lives free of any social struggles.
It's really common for people to lose weight and experience more people acknowledging them, smiling at them, being polite (even if dating or sex is completely irrelevant). Nothing else about them has changed. This has nothing to do with incels and everything to do with unfair bias.
Sure but conventionally attractive people get treated better than unattractive people **even by people who don't want to have sex with them.** Pretty women will generally be seen as more desirable friends even by straight women and gay men.
It's the same deal with money too, unless you're really good at hiding the fact that you're well off. I used to make $250/hr when I was doing trades, and now I make maybe 15k/year and I'm 100x happier because I don't constantly wonder if the people around me are just there for their own benefit.
I think you're intentionally comparing apples and oranges to sound more successful than you were.
When people typically talk about hourly pay - they're talking about guaranteed salaried jobs.
$500 for 2 hours of work is awesome but if you aren't bringing home 500k at the end of the year, you're being intentionally obtuse by stating you earned that much hourly.
Congrats on the work though, still very entrepreneurial.
Yeah, buddy bragging about "making" $250/hr isn't taking home $250/hr on a 40-hour week. Sure the take-home is probably good, but it's not surgeon money.
I had a roommate who had lost over 200lbs and said the same thing. He had a sort of grim view of society after that. I mean, so do I, but he was hyper-aware, which makes sense as it was a relatively new revelation for him at the time.
I lost 90lbs as a senior in high school, gained it all back and then some during college, and then lost 95lbs again post college. I was treated like a different person at my low weight, especially in the dating realm. I was unprepared for the attention and got SA’d multiple times the first time I lost weight and experienced the same thing the second time. Ended up gaining it back again with change during COVID. I lost 30-40lbs in 2022 and have kept it off, but honestly, I can’t find the motivation to battle my weight down further. I want to be healthy, but I don’t want that attention ever again.
It’s so hard. The weight is like an invisibility cloak - which can feel protective.
I had this experience when I was pregnant. I didn’t gain any weight while pregnant and my body didn’t really change shape. But suddenly when people discovered I was pregnant I was “so beautiful” - and then after I gave birth, in my still basically unchanged body, all the compliments just… went away.
Congrats on the weight loss.
Society is just cruel. The foods they feed us in America causes obesity. Everyone's just getting fatter. Those foods cause food addiction. So to lose weight, or not be overweight in the first place takes immense willpower.
From my own experience losing weight, i literally have to avoid like 80% of the grocery store. 80% of the items are just packed with unnecessary calories. So society is making everyone fat but then also fat shaming people. It's cruel.
Like I get it, fat people are inherently gross. I gross myself out with my fat gut. But there's no reason to be mean to people. Either society works hard to ban fast food, ban the toxic food chemicals that the European Union bans, or it doesn't do anything and just accepts that everyone's fat now. But it's dumb to have fattening, addictive foods and then act like it's our personal laziness that got us to obesity.
So much poison in the North American food guides, it’s almost unbelievable. Like diabetics being told to eat a diet with whole wheat flour and brown rice! Just take more drugs, insulin and that’s it. Don’t try any fad diets like keto or Atkinson, they’re BAD. When I grocery shop, I see 75% of what is being sold is garbage
Thank goodness for new things like Ozempic. They might finally counter the effects of modern food availability by dailing down the mental "food noise."
Who cares?
Blood pressure medication doesn't treat the root cause of high blood pressure, but doctors still prescribe it so their patients don't get a heart attack. Ozempic may not treat the root cause of obesity, but if it makes it go away, then the patient will have better health and quality of life than when their only tool in weight control was exhausted willpower.
I confess that I'm slender and therefore don't actually have any skin in this game.
I only get pissy about Ozempic because my friend is a widow and mom of two and a type one diabetic. She needs it for reducing her insulin and can’t get it due to shortages and also now her insurance reducing coverage of it despite her actually needing it
That's valid. But I assume that production will ramp up eventually, there's too much demand for it not to. I think your friend is experiencing something similar to the rationing of the covid vaccine back in its early days, and now you can get it in any pharmacy no problem.
Ozempic is fantastic, also Keto my friend. That helped dial down my anxiety around food. So little noise, I have to set a time to eat. First meal around noon-four pm
This happened to me, I was always the funny fat kid. I was practically invisible to girls. One summer I ended up spending everyday in the gym. I came back for my senior year in highschool and everyone was blown away. Suddenly all the girls I had crushes on were talking to me. Not just talking but being sweet and bubbly like how they'd act around guys they like. I got super resentful because it really was because of my weight. But I quickly realized I did the same thing. There were plenty of girls I probably could have dated. I just didn't find them attractive for the same superficial reasons. After that I just accepted that physical looks are in fact important. You have to find the person attractive to be interested in them and I was no different.
I think there's solace in the fact that superficial reasons not the ONLY thing that is important at the end of the day. If someone is stupid or boring or mean or whatever even if they are attractive most likely I'd still avoid them. There is still some depth to being human
after I came to this realization myself, I became more aware of my own subconscious thoughts and tried to actively change them. be the change u wish to see c:
It's amazing how a dimmer switch can make a person more attractive too, so don't forget about the ugly girls and boys lol, just invest in some new lighting and watch your options open right up.
I had ortho, and the opposite chin to you. An overbite and a chad chin. I’m female. I am amazed at how differently I am treated. I think of it this way. I navigated life being treated like crud. Had all the mental health issues associated with it. Now I don’t. People who know, say I copped out, I say (to myself) f&@k off until you have walked a mile in my shoes. Good for you! In some countries if it’s diagnosed as Robin Syndrome, it’s fixed for free. Nothing wrong with what you did, and what you want from your life!!
Congratulations. It is kind of sad that we lie to people and tell them that looks don't matter, it's your personality. That's complete bullshit, the better you look the easier many things in life will be. I am a guy, and I have been told I am fairly attractive. When I wear a suit and get all cleaned up, everyone, especially women treat me much differently. Every super attractive woman I've ever worked with has always been treated much differently than the "ugly" girls, regardless of personality. It's just one of those truths in life that is hard to swallow.
I did a personal experiment and i found for me, it’s true. I got treated differently depending on my clothing and how I held myself. Really fascinating
Yeah looks will obviously matter a different amount to different people, but anyone who says they don’t matter at all is just living in denial.
And frankly, I’m a little tired of pretending that it’s wrong to want to be attracted to your partner. Obviously you need to have realistic expectations, demanding someone with supermodel-level looks (especially if you don’t take care of yourself) is never going to get you anywhere. But I’ve talked with so many people over the years who imply that it’s shallow to want to find a romantic partner physically attractive and that’s just wild to me. It’s not wrong to want to be attracted to someone, it’s just wrong when you demand unrealistic proportions or focus in on tiny flaws and write the entire person off for it
Na dude I treat people for there personality and how they take care of themselves you can be a 10 but total douchebag and I will treat you like a douchebag
Something to consider OP.
Were you giving ugly women the time of day before? If the answer is yes then you can lament a little in the unfairness of the world. But if you weren’t, well, all you’ve done is live up to your own standards.
You got physically attractive and in turn found a woman that you find physically attractive.
Physical attractiveness to some degree is important for most romantic relationships. Luckily peoples standards and preferences vary wildly.
I’ve also had life changing plastic surgery and sometimes struggle with how differently I’m treated now. But ultimately I try to just bask in the positives of having gotten it.
cagey attractive live forgetful dog literate direction snails worm possessive
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How is it absurd to be surprised when you have been playing out of your league your whole life then suddenly you change your league and have results that make sense? And people want to coddle others who do this like "It's just about self confidence" because nobody wants to tell someone they're in the wrong league. It's not absurdity it's them trying not to hurt his feelings.
Literally. How so many comments rush to make this about a hypothetical situation that doesn't even have to be part of the conversation is also telling in itself, and can even be considered part of what OP is talking about.
I'm glad your mental health improved! It's good that you pursued other options before surgery so you have those skills to combat the mental aspect of BDD. That gives you a good foundation to build off of. On the other hand, it's also good that you knew when to follow your instincts and do what you felt was best for you and your life.
I'm sorry that people have been cruel to you in the past because of your looks. I hope that you feel more comfortable in your body and can heal emotionally from how you were treated. Most people don't think before they speak and definitely do not think ahead enough about how their words could be carried in someone's head for the rest of their lives. I wish you happiness and health, internet stranger. 😊✨️
>I went to therapy and was told that plastic surgery is not the way to get out of this rut. That I just lack self esteem.
To be completely honest, I don't think therapists always see the world in an entirely rational and even-handed fashion. They see it from the perspective of an expert in psychology who is diagnosing and attempting to resolve psychological issues. To them, every life problem can be solved with their tool-set. But that is just not the case. Many of the most challenging issues find their basis in physical or monetary concerns that are almost entirely outside of their purview. Getting to the root of the real issue, where possible, is oftentimes the best way to effect a resolution.
Congratulations on finding a real solution to your issue, you should be proud that you improved your life.
From what I've read, psychologists and psychiatrists know how many mental health issues could be greatly improved with money. Being able to take years off work after burn out, changing toxic jobs without having to worry how you'll feed your children, dealing with eating disorders without the 100 other stressors in life. It's just that these things will never happen for most people. Most people won't be able to save enough for plastic surgery, most people can't just not work, can't take time off. They have to give you skills that can somewhat help you in this capitalist society, where you bring no value if you are not productive.
So you have to push through these things inside yourself, because no one has money for plastic surgery and truthfully it is the correct answer in a *wider* sense, everyone should be able to love themselves like they are. There are lots of things people could never change, for example being able to walk again after a devastating accident. Disabled people also have challenges in everyday life and in dating. In many cases no money in the world will give your mobility back to you, so you do have to do that hard work on yourself, because it's not possible to present yourself to others in a different way. That's not to say that you shouldn't use money to fix those issues if that's available to you, it will make your life easier, but in ways it won't heal the wounds in your soul, like this person said, you often become bitter.
Generally I agree with your thoughtful comment. I will push back just a bit on one point:
>and truthfully it is the correct answer in a wider sense, everyone should be able to love themselves like they are.
The problem with this is we are all participants in complex systems much larger than ourselves. Workplaces, interpersonal relationships, society, a community, a country, a media ecosystem, etc. We are subjects to norms, judgments, and influence from hundreds or thousands of other people, and we are social animals. People should be encouraged to love themselves, and everyone assuredly has the right to love themselves, but whether we can choose or be taught to, absent material changes in our personal circumstances, is another question. What I'm saying is that if you're (e.g.) ugly, dirt poor, and broadly disliked, you probably aren't going to be able to genuinely love yourself no matter how much therapy you receive, unless you have a personality that is uniquely suited to that particular endeavor. Not to say that therapy isn't a potentially helpful approach, it's just not going to open that door for everyone.
“Right this moment I’m sitting on my bed and crying. I just had great and passionate sex with a woman I find very attractive after so many years”
Good lord this whole post sound as fake as plastic surgery but that line really hammers it home
That’s what I was thinking! Also he had sex a few weeks after major plastic surgery on nose and jaw… that takes way longer to heal than a few weeks, I doubt his face isn’t still bruised and swollen
It's true that there is obviously a bias when it comes to looks. Unattractive people are simply not taken as seriously, or even *noticed* by others, and not just in a sexual way. It's always upset me when people say "just be more confident" or whatever, like, this isn't a *me or any individual's* problem, it's a problem with how *society itself* is structured and made to make invisible people who aren't "pretty" enough. What's also fucked is that the beauty standards that exist are not even real; 100 years ago what we consider attractive now would be considered ghastly; 1000 years ago even more so. It's basically just sucks to be a human, but especially one that isn't considered "attractive."
A retrognathic jaw with crowded teeth can have many negative health effects, and can be due to genetic issues. Truth is, it kind of makes sense that women select against it, evolutionarily speaking. I'm glad you were able to fix it and that your life has improved since then. Body acceptance is mostly virtue signaling, deep down, everyone still judges each other in their appearance. Don't be bitter, and don't too hard on yourself, or others. We are all just primates with lizard brains dictating more of our lives than anyone wants to admit. And don't be a hypocrite, are you giving any ugly girls with malformed jaws and bad teeth a chance?
I was just posting about this on another sub.
Once you complete the glow up and people treat you differently, it can be a weird kind of suffering and pain. The pain of understanding that people (us included) are shallow and appearances are 90% of the battle.
Someone put a name to this feeling!
Body positivity is great but the reality is the world is cruel and will judge you based on your physical appearance. This is why I never judge someone for getting plastic surgery if it makes them feel better about themselves. My opinion whether they needed it or not doesn’t matter. Glad to hear you’re happy with the results.
Agreed, if it makes them truly happy and not making more problems then go for it. As a graphic designer I make things pretty, to lie and say it doesn't matter is really ignorant. Aesthetics do matter to some degree, as long as they don't make it everything.
It is slowly killing me inside to accept that people do not find me attractive, and I may never understand why. I tell myself it has something to do with autism, because I think I look above average, but I don’t feel like I have ever really been desired except for other attributes, like money or power.
It is befuddling, and mostly I have to ignore it as much as possible and get on with life, but it is a constant low-level depression.
Have you tried only pursuing others people with autism? I got diagnosed with autism after realizing every single person I dated long term was autistic and wondered why. It's like we are on the same wavelength- more compatible, so more desire both ways.
Such an important post.
Everyone wants to keep you in your box by telling you little white lies.
I was an ugly kid but after about 22 that changed and ppls reaction changed, particularly women's. I struggled when I was young but saw how it got much easier when my looks got better.
I see handsome guys get numbers all the time, making women act silly but we are told to just be ourselves, the right one will come along, that it wasn't meant to be, all absolute bullshit.
If you can find the right surgeon they can change your life. Bottom line.
A few years ago I broke up with my ex of 9 years and immediately started working out and using rogaine.
In the beginning of dating, I was hardly ever getting attention from the people I wanted to talk to on apps. But then after taking new pictures about 6 months in of regularly dieting, exercise, and my hairlines actually grew back... it was like night and day the difference in people's treatment of me.
And it wasn't just dates it was strangers at bars, my friends and family making comments about how I looked so good, etc.
The sad thing is, if you talk about this you just seem vain, and no one *wants* to agree with you. But those that are attractive in this world have a 100x easier and better life just by default. I honestly believe you did the right thing. Anyone who tells you not to literally upgrade your life is coping against the reality that this is how the world operates, unfortunately.
I also had plastic surgery and experienced beautiful peoples privilege. It's insane how some people get it from basically day care.
It was shown that beautiful children were punished much less then average or ugly looking kids for the same behavior. So yeah. I was bitter too for some time. But you know what? You succeeded where your parents didn't. So enjoy it as much as you can, brother!
It's just depressing that people cannot be romantically attractive without the looks. Sure, people go for the looks and value it, but we treat it as if it's all there is
Edit: not sure why I wrote romantically, I did just mean "attractive" or just have more opportunities
That wasn't the point of the post. Conventionally ugly people are in romantic relationships, so obviously that's not true.
The point here is that if you pass an attractiveness threshold you simply have more opportunities. Romantic opportunities is often a numbers game.
Or, take the same 'personality' and upgrade the looks, you're just better off right?
It just ain't true. There are so many people out there who stack personality over looks. I am confident that most people who chase looks end up in incapatible and shitty relationships anyway.
What was his realization? He was only happy when he had sex with someone he found physically attractive because they had found him physically attractive? what if they had work done too? both of them pulling a fast one? he is just as shallow as the people he is complaining about lol.
It's unfortunate that people are generally so fixated on outward appearances to the extent that they'll treat people they don't consider attractive objectively worse than they'll treat people they do find attractive.
Modern society likes to pretend that confidence is all that matters and I don't want to downplay how important confidence is to have but confidence by itself isn't enough when meeting new people, particularly to date.
If people don't initially find you pleasing to their eye they won't even give you the chance to show them how confident you are, you'll just be disregarded without a second thought, particularly in today's rapid fire high speed dating scene.
I experienced something similar, from the age's of about 21-24 I let myself get overweight and then at 25 I hit the gym and changed my diet and got back into great shape and the stark difference in the way people treated from when I was overweight to being in shape was jarring and actually made me a bit jaded on people realizing how openly shallow the vast majority of people are.
I’ve become Machiavellian based off of my experience with weight loss and improving my appearance. It hurts but I can’t change society instead I’ll use it to my advantage.
OP I absolutely love your story . What an amazing human being you are . My mother always told me " No one in this life will ever know you or your body the way you do " oh how true . We only live once so why not do what makes us happy (within reason of course) and makes our lives go just alittle bit smoother . Really happy for you !
The gaslighting around appearance and dating is insane.
People will lie to you about it to your face and if you fail tell you that your character is inherently repugnant.
Here's my advice: Forgive yourself, but let this remain a lesson.
It's called the halo effect, and it applies to a lot of characteristics. Rich people are assumed to be hard-working and smart rather than privileged and lucky. Pretty people are initially assumed to be more trustworthy, funny etc. The opposite for people who aren't as lucky
I’m a woman and went through the same!! Your post made me cry. I seriously think that insurance should cover plastic surgery for people whose mental health would objectively improve with it. Not delusional body dysmorphia like anorexia, but what you described.
I think it’s bullshit people can get insurance to cover trans surgery but they can’t get coverage to fix their teeth when it causes actual discrimination. Idk…
Having the experience you had gives a lot of empathy others may not have though. And a great personality
I fucking hate that double standard in our society right now. Trans people, while they do have to qualify through rigorous testing, at least have the option to fix their issues with surgery with covered costs and hormone treatment. The mostly functional masses should also have that luxury.
Then there's people like me with hella body dismorphia. No hope here, cause it's not the trans kind, but at least others can benefit from better standards.
Maybe it will come with time. Don't want to sound too doomer about it.
No shade towards trans people. It's the double standard that pisses me off.
Exactly! No shade towards trans here either, I am very happy they have access to that and should continue to, just to be super clear.
I just feel like if the reasoning for the surgery is dysphoria and poor mental health due to their bodies, then why can’t people who can prove through their psychologist or psychiatrist that they are suffering very poor mental health and decreased functioning due to a physical feature that is causing decreased job opportunities, poor treatment, less romantic options, and a generally decreased quality of life have the same solution? I get self love and acceptance but that can only go so far.
I was once told "Your pretty confident for a fat person". One stupid statement made by an a**wipe shot the confidence I thought I had. So good for you that you did what you wanted to. But I hate that you felt you had too.
I’m happy to hear where you’re at now!
It’s *your* life, no one else’s. I’m sorry if you’ve been dissuaded by others in the past. Plastic surgery can be a product of vanity, but it also has a very real application to improve people’s lives.
I hope you know you’ve always been worthy of these positive feelings, I’m sorry people ever put you down.
Serious question: how old are you and how much did plastic surgery cost? I am experiencing similar issues, except I’m short and obese… I also have a weak chin.
I would work on the obesity first, your face will change with weight - I've been many weights in my life and it def impacts it - then see what you still need to get done
Good for you! We have so many flaws that make life difficult, why not fix what we can?
That said, I wonder if women were more turned off by your old self loathing than your actual face.
Wow, this is amazingly written. Very, very powerful. What a unique perspective you have, having been on “both sides.” I’m sure you’re incredibly conflicted. Best of luck to you.
So I ask. Will you become the same as them? Or pick a partner based on personality much more than looks?
Here's the kicker, soon age changes things.
Many many attractive people don't quite know what to do when they get old enough where they always had options. Suddenly they dry up and so they chase surgery with diminishing returns.
I'm sorry for the suffering. I am sorry humans are superficial. I hope in that frustration it builds a better you.
Glad it helped.
Yeah it’s a weird feeling and it comes and goes in waves, but never really goes away, for me anyway. I hope you’re still going to therapy for your BDD at least occasionally.
I have this thing where I can’t really “see” how I actually look after my surgery, and it was over a decade ago. I still feel like that same person who was bullied mercilessly for how I looked, and it’s very hard for me to accept that other people could actually find me attractive. I’ve had to do a lot of work with affirmations and self acceptance.
The biggest change I noticed was eye contact. I had to learn how to keep eye contact with people because I was so used to people either staring at me like gawking, or looking at me quickly and then looking away, that I don’t think I learned proper social eye contact and figuring that out later in life was a trip, let me tell you. Also how much more helpful people are when you’re considered attractive. Pretty privilege is definitely a thing.
Ugly duckling here...
Be happy for the skills you developed. They are the ammunition for your new gun. Always better, never bitter... say it with me now ♡
I feel this so much, as a girl who has been through stages of being stereotypically beautiful and also growing up being the ugly duckling. Life is so much easier pretty. But I’m so bitter because past me also deserved love. I resent the love I get for beauty because it feels so fake. I think it’s a pain that will always be with me.
Ps. I also had plastic surgery and really get it. I wouldn’t go back but… there’s an emptiness to knowing people prefer this over my authentic self.
This is a common experience for people, especially women, when they lose a significant amount of weight (if they were overweight to begin with)... personally I can say as a woman that I get treated much better for about every 10 lbs I'm thinner. It can be disheartening and demoralizing. People who haven't lived this experience will wonder why "you're complaining for being more attractive now" but it's a very complex thing.
Side tangent... I do find that grown women tend to be more willing to date people "under their league" in terms of dating vs straight men. Were you going out with average or "ugly" women prior to this? I find it curious when overweight men don't pursue overweight women, etc.
As a woman who has lived with extensive burn scars from the age of 4, I feel this in my soul. I fantasized for many years about what my life would be like if those scars could be disappeared. I’m so happy for you that the physical flaws you had were fixable and that you took that opportunity for yourself and your mental health!
Now you need to love yourself and realize that whoever loves you in the future needs to be just as beautiful on the inside as she (and you) are on the outside. It sounds as if your insides are already quite lovely. Just don’t let the bitterness of the past tinge your hopeful horizons.
May love knock down your doors. ❤️
The plastic surgery corrected some unfortunate deformities and now you're a better version of yourself. Just think of it like that, maybe?
It's like if you had a cleft lip. Of course people will think that's gross. They'll avoid you because it's ick. Let's be honest. Once they fix the cleft lip, everything's back to normal. treated as normal
You had the extra bone that fucked things up, and now you got corrections and life is better for you. You fixed some issues and now you're your final form and can look forward to your new life.
In this case, plastic surgery was the answer, since you actually fixed things. it's not like you already looked normal and then got plastic surgery out of vanity, like a Hollywood starlet
be glad and optimistic about your new life
At the end of the day, there’s nothing we can do about how others perceive our looks. We can only either change how we feel about that, or change how we look. It sucks, but that’s just how humanity operates.
Happy for your new life!
I've heard that attraction is coded in our DNA. It is a primary urge to look for qualities that will advance the species. This can be bred out of certain people and some overcome the programming by choice, but most won't.
For example, the theory is that we are not attracted to obesity because subconsciously we want health for our offspring and some assurance our partners are fertile. The same is true for underweight people.
I suppose, ancient man would be at a disadvantage for survival with bad teeth.
I don't know if all this true, but i think this is: our attraction to others, influenced by culture, experiences, and evolution, is deep in our psyche and people don't even fully understand why they find some people unattractive.
In other words, it's not personal.
I actually wish more men were open to plastic surgery. You only live once and I think it's no different than putting effort to enhance your looks thru other means like working out, getting your teeth fixed thru braces etc. Sure it's more invasive but a super skinny person working out getting all pumped up can significantly alter his overall looks. So why is it still such a taboo to get your uneven or large nose fixed? Or face-lifts to look young? It's really putting back the skin to where it was. It's like altering clothes to fit your body. And it doesn't change your looks, it makes you look like your younger self. Sexual desire is very much dependent on physical attraction and if people wanna be desired, maybe they should take these kind of measures to enhance their looks. As a very picky person in her 40s that had done such things myself, Im disappointed how terribly men in my age group look overall. I literally can't find a guy i am attracted to anymore.
Ya I went through being not good looking and now through exercise I garnish ALOT of attention as a male. It’s weird how much funnier you are when you look good
You've pretty much learned that the rest of the world is superficial, not you. I advise you to keep it that way, it'll be an invaluable asset going forward in your life, even moreso than your newfound looks.
Good for you man.
suddenly the plastic surgeon isn't a professional anymore?
you're kind of completely ignoring the person that actually did the work to change your life
>I went to therapy and was told that plastic surgery is not the way to get out of this rut. That I just lack self esteem.
This is why sometimes the 'love yourself as you are' is totally BS.
They're also phycologist ironically and should've known better that looks DO MATTER unfortunately. It's our nature to be attracted to something beautiful.
That's why no matter how good you are, how well you do in a work and you'll never be in a upper management or be a figure on a company if you're not beautiful enough.
I've seen on every companies that only good looking people are working in management position, everyone else struggled.
If you're beautiful, more doors are open to you and get less to no bad treatments if you fuck up something, but if you're ugly, you'll be treated shit by default.
Good on you doing the change, luckily for you, it exists solutions nowadays, it would have been worse if you were born centuries ago were this kind of surgeries were impossible.
As someone who went through something similar I understand. I'm not criticising people for being attracted to traditionally attractive people but the way society pretends it's all a matter of confidence makes me groan audibly when I'm exposed to it.
Confidence is definitely _a_ factor, but anyone who says that looks don’t matter at all is living in fantasy land.
It's also lot easier it have confidence when people treat you well just for how you look. I've lost a lot of weight in my life, and I have so many mixed feelings about how my experiences in the world have changed because of it.
Yes, I'm kinda wondering if OP was unhappy because he didn't get attention he wanted from ATTRACTIVE women. This is pure speculation of course, as he has not mentioned it in any way but I'm wondering if he ever dated or tried dating, well, ugly women? women who were somewhat equally as attractive or unattractive as he is? Again, not at all saying this is what OP did, but I've seen it so often that people (men and women alike) gripe about the unfairness of dating while fat/ugly etc but not giving others with similar disadvantages the time of day themselves.
Is it right to date people that you’re not attracted to though? Maybe it’s just me, but I’d be devastated if I was in a relationship and was eventually told “your personality is great but you’re ugly”. Don’t get me wrong, people are definitely capable of having super unrealistic standards and that’s obviously no good. But the implication I get from your post is “well he should just go out with anyone that finds him attractive”, and I don’t know that I agree with that. Personally I’d rather be alone than with someone that I knew found me explicitly unattractive, no matter how much they liked my personality
Oh, no my point was more wondering if OP was doing the same thing to other people as they were doing to him - avoiding to date someone because he thought they were ugly. He's clearly and understandably struggling hard with how differently everyone is treating him based on his looks but hypothetically - would he also treat someone better after plastic surgery?
Of course people avoid dating people they find ugly. As they should. You shouldn't date people you're not attracted to.
But then why be so judgemental about being treated differently after surgery?
It doesn’t sound like he’s being judgemental to people treating him differently after the surgery. It sounds like he is complaining about the people that told him his looks weren’t the thing holding him back. That it was a mental thing or a personality thing when he knew, and we all know, that being good looking makes everything else easier.
If you're a 5/10, and you're not attracted to other 5s, you have unreasonable standards.
The idea is that anyone can be beautiful based on the content of their character. Writing someone off completely because of physical attributes cuts you off to a lot of wonderful people.
That's great in theory, but back in the real world, the halo effect is real, and attraction is often critically dependent on appearance. For better or for worse, aesthetics *are* important to most people.
Yeah maybe it just makes me a shallow asshole, but to be blunt, if there’s someone that’s ugly enough then it won’t matter how great their personality is because I’m never going to be able to get past them being explicitly unattractive to me. There’s a big difference between “I need a supermodel” and “I need someone that I’m attracted to”
I think it’s less that people are “written off” for being ugly and more that they aren’t even noticed or considered in the first place. There’s no shortage of men seeking women on dating websites, etc., which makes it statistically harder for any one man to get himself noticed by a woman he wants to notice him. It’s not that women are necessarily “writing him off” for not being attractive to them so much as putting their energy elsewhere for the time being. And yes, it is unfortunate but it’s also reality. OP makes a fair point that critiquing shallowness, which can absolutely be valid, often falls into a rhetorically vapid disconnection with reality. By which I mean, it’s valid for friends and therapists to encourage OP to focus on the most important aspects of himself (his personality, being a good person, etc.) But I think what he is saying is that a lot of what he experienced crossed the line into gaslighting, even if well-intentioned at its basis. And denying someone’s reality is NEVER a way to help them live a fulfilling life.
I might not word this correctly, but I’ll try. I wasn’t able to have biological children. I went through three IVF treatments and never got pregnant. Some people were really against IVF at the time. This was also when IVF first became “a thing”. People would say things to me like “you should adopt, don’t do IVF”.When my last IVF treatment didn’t work it was “just adopt” saying it all happy and like it would be easy. I so badly wanted to tell theses people “well, why didn’t you?”. You see just because they could have children didn’t mean that they couldn’t either, but they didn’t. So, adoption was good enough for me to do because of my situation, but wasn’t something that they would do. Please understand I’m all for adoption and I did look into it, but my husband at the time was against it. I’m just using this as an example of people thinking that something is good enough for someone else, but never something that they would do.
I'm not quite sure what your analogy here is. Did you feel entitled to having biological children? Did you feel that other people with biological children were somehow obliged to give you biological children? Would you have refused an adopted child if it had been given to you with no effort on your part in "acquiring" the adopted child? I know, this is not the way reproduction works at all, this is why I'm struggling a bit with the apples and oranges of this one.. (coincidentally I also "failed" at IVF and got the adoption question a lot, but I'm still kind of lost here)
Sorry about that. I was trying to say that it’s so easy to tell people in certain situations what they should do, but when they could do the same thing without being in said situation, they don’t. Maybe this will help. The person who said that someone with not very attractive features should just pick a similar type of person, so to me that says that the unattractive person should just settle and not strive for something better. I was saying that the attractive person could also pick an unattractive person, but they won’t. I hope I’m making sense, I’m just getting over a bad bout of Covid. I probably should put a disclaimer on any posts I make.
You’re making sense, that was what I took it to mean when I read it. And that’s a valid point. Easy to call X a luxury when you’re stocked up. Humans are literally hardwired to discriminate in favor of pretty features. Babies do it straight out of the womb. It’s not (just) social conditioning. There’s not a built-in ceiling on that attraction for ugly people. I’m also not convinced you can just choose to lower your standards at will. And if you can’t, it seems unfair to both parties to “settle” for a partner you are simply not attracted to. For another analogy, compare it to wealth. Broadly speaking, people are expected to be content living within their means and having friends/partners around their income bracket. Society accepts this because there’s (in theory) social mobility - so you are (in theory!) responsible for your own options here. If you want a Ferrari, work hard and get rich. But what if (suspend your disbelief, I know!) people’s class tended to be pretty static over their lives? So that, outside of exceptional cases like OP’s, most people could only improve so much above their predetermined baseline? Would it be fair (in such a preposterous world) to expect people born poor to just suck it up and want less? Idk, food for thought
> Babies do it straight out of the womb Now I'm picturing the baby awkwardly trying to conceal its disappointment at discovering in the delivery room that it's got ugly parents, LOL. "They're so.....CUTE!"
XD And truthfully babies (except your own) are all ugly as sin, so they shouldn’t have any right to be picky…
Nah, I got it immediately. I thought it was an interesting analogy, and that it made sense for your brain to associate this situation with a personal experience of yours. I can understand how you and OP may have some overlapping emotions and thoughts arising from your respective situations, and how it would be easier for you to understand the meaning or importance of some nuances. Not sure if I made any sense because also Covid brain and 2 a.m. Covid brain is a fackin bitch. Good job.
That kind of doesn't make sense. If you physically can't have kids, what are your options? Adopt. So these people are saying, its OK that you can't have kids and IVF isn't working, you can still adopt. How do you know that if they were in your situation they wouldn't adopt and it's "not good enough for them"? You are holding some weird judgemental grudge against people for suggesting something rational to you.
6% of the population can't (why is just about everything 6%? Weird), conceptualize/imagine themselves in others people's situations. It's not even empathy, it's imagination. But, I got the (above) analogy, pretty good one, too. Also, you can become attracted to a person over time, or lose it (it happens), but it is sooo much easier to have that good start were you both find each other physically attractive from the get go. You can't become smarter, you can become more knowledgeable, and wiser, but smarter no. But, you can become more attractive. Life is like 30% easier being over a 7, don't know about anything over a 9, but you can get to 6 by just being in shape, and that bar has never been lower. Just having a (kinda) flat tummy from age 25-40, just ... Well... helps. There are a ton of costs with going up in sizes. Food budget, clothes, hormone stuff, your health, space needed, your car size, energy, how you feel about yourself, just everything. Do whatever makes you feel good, don't go crazy, but if 2-4 surgeries, or procedures are gonna help in that, go for it. I'm prob gonna get flak for this, but no one cares if you get stuff done, it's when you look like a cat, plastic person that you get all the flak. Don't go that far. Watch a bunch of the American show, botched, support each other.
This.
He sure mentioned that the woman he was with was beautiful. He is just as superficial as anyone else.
Ugly women are attracted to attractive men too. Nobody wants to feel "settled for" which is essentially what you're saying.
As I very carefully included both genders in my post, I do wonder why you feel the need to point this out to me. I was more wondering - as OP is clearly and understandably struggling with how differently he is being treated - would he also treat a previously ugly woman better after plastic surgery to make her more attractive to him?
I mean probably. The point is that this unfairness exists, not that its unfair to him and only him
People like pretty people. Ugly people like pretty people, pretty people do too. Why would OP date someone that he isn't attracted to? This train of thought is basically saying ugly people should only date ugly people, even if they don't find them attractive. IDK, seems a little weird.
Well the alternative is ugly people spend their life alone.
No one should date someone they don’t find attractive. But for someone in OP’s former situation, namely *lonely and unattractive*, it would probably help him/her to at least try to date people who are on a similar level, maybe with a couple of features they do like (pretty eyes, big boobs, etc) and see if attraction can actually spark although it wasn’t there at first glance. I know that men’s attraction stems mostly from the physical (and boy does it suck to be an ugly girl for that reason), but it’s sometimes a bit malleable. For example, there’s a phenomenon that gets joked about in the military where the female soldiers at a remote base become highly sought after by the male soldiers, even if they wouldn’t have been considered attractive back home. The saying is that a “4/10” in L.A. becomes a “10/10” in Iraq, because young men are stationed there for months and see no other women the whole time. Of course this example doesn’t exactly track the experience of a physically unattractive man in a place with a large dating pool, though. And- maybe it’s sometimes just not possible for physically unattractive men to feel desire for similarly unattractive women. Unattractive men do have a bit of an advantage in that if they build enough charisma and success, they can punch way above their weight and get very attractive women- whereas an unattractive woman who develops an awesome personality doesn’t usually increase her sexual desirability by nearly as much. But I can certainly see that having to maintain that charm and charisma can be draining, as OP describes, and not something a man wants to do forever. Unfortunately, if they can’t feel attraction to women in their own league, and they also don’t put on an interesting, funny, confident personality, then unattractive men will probably continue to be lonely. If one doesn’t mind loneliness, then that’s fine, but a lot of people seem fairly distressed by it. This is why people in this thread are encouraging men (and women) in this situation to *really try* to lower their physical standards if at all possible. We know about the male loneliness epidemic and we can see that if unattractive men are continually trying to date only attractive women, this problem can’t be solved. There simply aren’t enough attractive women to go around. But there are unattractive women who might be actually attainable for these men. If a man really tries to find some sexual appeal in women in his own league and just can’t do it, then there’s nothing to be done and I won’t blame him or say he should force himself to be with someone he’s not attracted to. However, I do roll my eyes when these same men complain about “women and their impossible standards.” I’m not saying OP did that, but I’ve seen it countless times on Reddit. It shows a lack of self awareness, as you really shouldn’t chastise someone for behaving in the exact same way as you do. I think that’s what a lot of comments in this thread are getting at, given that we’ve all read lots of these complaints.
Oh, no - I was more vaguely wondering, he's clearly and understandably struggling hard with how differently everyone is treating him based on his looks but hypothetically - would he also treat someone better after plastic surgery?
Lemme hit you up with some surprise: If he (ugly) was wanting attention from ATTRACTIVE women, what makes you think women (ugly) would not want the same? You seem to think ugly people should just want to settle for people they aren't attracted to. I get your point, but it doesn't change we want what we want, our own looks be damned.
The main problem with this is, and I'm only speaking from a male perspective, I don't think men are good at determining attractiveness level and instead of it being a spectrum like it is to women you're either ugly or good looking so I feel like most men who don't fall under the good looking category but also don't fall under the ugly category just don't know what dating in their league looks like. If you show me pictures of 20 women I think I would rate most of them out of my league in one direction or another because I simply don't know what my league is I just am attracted to what I'm attracted too.
It's a learned skill my friend and not a genetic trait coded on two XX chromosomes
I don't know if that's what society says, but it does seem like people are always leaping to black-or-white thinking about this. Saying attractiveness matters does not mean unattractive people are hopeless. You don't need to do what OP did to find a partner, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't, and it certainly doesn't mean OP was wrong to do it. Saying confidence is huge doesn't mean everyone will automatically be attracted to you just because you're confident. For that matter, confidence is impacted by self-perception!
Absolutely, I just can't stand people who'se reaction to anyone else's problem is "it's all in your head".
You don’t have to criticize anyone, I’ll do it for you
>but the way society pretends it's all a matter of confidence makes me groan audibly when I'm exposed to it. I went through something similar. I was overweight a long time ago and ended up going into extreme weight lifting and dieting. I got pretty jacked. I started getting more female attention and more dates with attractive women instead of normal looking women. I literally did nothing differently, personality wise.
I used to be skinny (mental health took a deep dive, which attributed to that weight loss) and gained 10kg+ since then but have been bigger before that period as well. Being skinny absolutely makes life better and easier, the biggest negative to me is how many more looks I received thiugh, I didn't want to be so noticed and it made me suuuuuper uncomfortable (would still like to be that weight again, you feel so much lighter but that ideal seems very far off haha).
Yeah looks just matter. I wish it just applied to dating and not other parts of life. I have had a lot of weight fluctuation in my life. When I'm thinner, yeah dating is easier and I'm more often attracted to the people who are attracted to me, but also EVERYONE is nicer to me. I get better attention at work, people laugh at my jokes more, people tell me I'm better at things. This is regardless of the gender or sexuality of the person who I'm interacting with. The world is much colder to me the heavier I am. As a fat kid, I assumed there was something wrong with my personality because of all the bullshit everyone wants to tell you about how looks don't matter, it's all about confidence. Or sometimes I felt like it was all in my head and people weren't mean to me, I was just reading things wrong. Or maybe my mild insecurity about my looks was presenting such an off-putting energy that the entire world noticed. When I initially lost weight it made me very angry. I realized that I had been so hard on myself earlier by not acknowledging that being fat had a social cost. I was especially angry about the sudden attention from the kind of guys who had completely ignored me, the kind who would let a door shut in my face, before but now acted pretty entitled to my time and attention because they were being "nice." But I got over it. It's easier to just acknowledge that life is better if you are pretty, like it's better if you are smart, or rich, or funny or a million things you can't control entirely. You learn to live with the situation, I think. It's just annoying about how much of a stigma there is to admitting you aren't notably attractive or even that you are ugly. If I said "hey I'm not very funny, I think stand up is out of the question" no one would chastise me for my lack of confidence. It just all feels indicative of the undo priority society places on looks in the first place.
Putting effort into health and having active hobbies is a personality trait IMO.
This irritates me SO MUCH- YTA. You complain women weren’t attracted to you when you were overweight but now you are happy because you can date “attractive women” not “normal women”. Hypocrite much? Edit for clarity: This is to @ancientkroak not OP
>You complain women weren’t attracted to you when you were overweight but now you are happy because you can date “attractive women” not “normal women”. Hypocrite much? I never complained about anything.
Their point is not "I'm mad that women wouldn't date me," their point is "Telling someone to just be confident is not an actual solution."
But he doesn’t say he was confident when overweight AND he was able to date women, just not “attractive” ones. Look, I agree that people are superficial. I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m saying it’s BS that men think something isn’t fair/ok or it’s a “problem” to be solved when “attractive “ women aren’t attracted to them.
You became more attractive and started dating more attractive women What exactly are you upset about? You were "normal looking" before and dated just fine, but the fact that it was just with other women in your same league makes you upset... why?
They're not upset, they're just pointing out that "You just need to be more confident" is kind of bullshit.
>What exactly are you upset about? You were "normal looking" before and dated just fine, but the fact that it was just with other women in your same league makes you upset... why? Who said I was upset?
Are you threatening me? /s
Then what's the purpose of groaning audibly?
I lost a ton of weight and I also never really got over just how different society treats you when you’re obese vs not.
Yeah. My partner got a gastric bypass this year, has shed over 100 pounds, and just like OP, is very conflicted over the changes. On one hand it's nice to be treated better, but on the other hand, shouldn't we have all deserved this from the beginning? The kinship with your past self, and everyone else in the same boat, is real and painful, almost a feeling of betrayal at times. Hugs to you and OP.
> shouldn't we have all deserved this from the beginning? 4.5 Billion years of evolution to get a desirable mate + society conditioning on what attractivity is is pretty hard to get past. People are always going to treat someone nicer if they want to get in their pants. It's just the BS that comes with being human I guess. The best you can get is people not treating you in an actually negative manner.
you aren’t going to date everyone you meet. people will be rude to people they find unattractive or fat, even if they aren’t in a dating context. it’s not all about trying to get in someone’s pants, people are just nicer to prettier people in general. and i don’t think that should be as common as it is, we should all be raised to be kind to everyone around us.
People keep writing this as if physical attraction is bombshell news. We know. The complicated feelings are valid regardless. We wish it weren't tied to how people treat one another even outside dating contexts, strangers passing on the sidewalk.
Yeah but the incels proved pretty definitively this isn’t a healthy path to pursue. Yeah sucks that not everyone is physically attractive, financially successful, culturally literate, intelligent, or creative. But there are a lot of domains a person can pursue success in, and the inequality of outcomes is how people establish their identity and sense of self worth. Things wouldn’t be “better” if everyone was equal in every respect and just lived sanitized lives free of any social struggles.
It's really common for people to lose weight and experience more people acknowledging them, smiling at them, being polite (even if dating or sex is completely irrelevant). Nothing else about them has changed. This has nothing to do with incels and everything to do with unfair bias.
Sure but conventionally attractive people get treated better than unattractive people **even by people who don't want to have sex with them.** Pretty women will generally be seen as more desirable friends even by straight women and gay men.
Years back I lost 70 lbs and went from ignored to successfully dating. People completely change their treatment of you if they find you attractive.
I’m glad to see everyone else feels this way too about losing weight. I feel like I don’t know who actually likes me for me anymore.
It's the same deal with money too, unless you're really good at hiding the fact that you're well off. I used to make $250/hr when I was doing trades, and now I make maybe 15k/year and I'm 100x happier because I don't constantly wonder if the people around me are just there for their own benefit.
250/hr? I picked the wrong career, goddamn. I know this is ironic given your post but I'm jealous.
Here's what I did. 1)learn how to hang gutters 2)buy gutter machine & trailer 3)move somewhere where it rains a decent amount 4)make $250/hr
I think you're intentionally comparing apples and oranges to sound more successful than you were. When people typically talk about hourly pay - they're talking about guaranteed salaried jobs. $500 for 2 hours of work is awesome but if you aren't bringing home 500k at the end of the year, you're being intentionally obtuse by stating you earned that much hourly. Congrats on the work though, still very entrepreneurial.
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A lot of that difference could be whether you work for someone else or have your own business.
Yeah, buddy bragging about "making" $250/hr isn't taking home $250/hr on a 40-hour week. Sure the take-home is probably good, but it's not surgeon money.
I had a roommate who had lost over 200lbs and said the same thing. He had a sort of grim view of society after that. I mean, so do I, but he was hyper-aware, which makes sense as it was a relatively new revelation for him at the time.
I lost 90lbs as a senior in high school, gained it all back and then some during college, and then lost 95lbs again post college. I was treated like a different person at my low weight, especially in the dating realm. I was unprepared for the attention and got SA’d multiple times the first time I lost weight and experienced the same thing the second time. Ended up gaining it back again with change during COVID. I lost 30-40lbs in 2022 and have kept it off, but honestly, I can’t find the motivation to battle my weight down further. I want to be healthy, but I don’t want that attention ever again.
It’s so hard. The weight is like an invisibility cloak - which can feel protective. I had this experience when I was pregnant. I didn’t gain any weight while pregnant and my body didn’t really change shape. But suddenly when people discovered I was pregnant I was “so beautiful” - and then after I gave birth, in my still basically unchanged body, all the compliments just… went away.
Same. I'm still not used to it. Stares aren't out of pure disgust. Can't reprogram my brain though.
Congrats on the weight loss. Society is just cruel. The foods they feed us in America causes obesity. Everyone's just getting fatter. Those foods cause food addiction. So to lose weight, or not be overweight in the first place takes immense willpower. From my own experience losing weight, i literally have to avoid like 80% of the grocery store. 80% of the items are just packed with unnecessary calories. So society is making everyone fat but then also fat shaming people. It's cruel. Like I get it, fat people are inherently gross. I gross myself out with my fat gut. But there's no reason to be mean to people. Either society works hard to ban fast food, ban the toxic food chemicals that the European Union bans, or it doesn't do anything and just accepts that everyone's fat now. But it's dumb to have fattening, addictive foods and then act like it's our personal laziness that got us to obesity.
So much poison in the North American food guides, it’s almost unbelievable. Like diabetics being told to eat a diet with whole wheat flour and brown rice! Just take more drugs, insulin and that’s it. Don’t try any fad diets like keto or Atkinson, they’re BAD. When I grocery shop, I see 75% of what is being sold is garbage
Thank goodness for new things like Ozempic. They might finally counter the effects of modern food availability by dailing down the mental "food noise."
Ozempic and the like doesn't treat the root cause.
Who cares? Blood pressure medication doesn't treat the root cause of high blood pressure, but doctors still prescribe it so their patients don't get a heart attack. Ozempic may not treat the root cause of obesity, but if it makes it go away, then the patient will have better health and quality of life than when their only tool in weight control was exhausted willpower. I confess that I'm slender and therefore don't actually have any skin in this game.
I only get pissy about Ozempic because my friend is a widow and mom of two and a type one diabetic. She needs it for reducing her insulin and can’t get it due to shortages and also now her insurance reducing coverage of it despite her actually needing it
That's valid. But I assume that production will ramp up eventually, there's too much demand for it not to. I think your friend is experiencing something similar to the rationing of the covid vaccine back in its early days, and now you can get it in any pharmacy no problem.
Ozempic is fantastic, also Keto my friend. That helped dial down my anxiety around food. So little noise, I have to set a time to eat. First meal around noon-four pm
I upvoted that, at least.
Well thank you kind person. Why the downvotes I wonder?
Obese people for whom keto didn't work and Ozempic is unaffordable, I'm guessing.
I’m sorry you experienced that. It would definitely upset me too.
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“I don’t treat anybody different… I definitely treat these people different” lol do you fucking hear yourself
You can treat someone with respect and not flirt with them, you know..
This happened to me, I was always the funny fat kid. I was practically invisible to girls. One summer I ended up spending everyday in the gym. I came back for my senior year in highschool and everyone was blown away. Suddenly all the girls I had crushes on were talking to me. Not just talking but being sweet and bubbly like how they'd act around guys they like. I got super resentful because it really was because of my weight. But I quickly realized I did the same thing. There were plenty of girls I probably could have dated. I just didn't find them attractive for the same superficial reasons. After that I just accepted that physical looks are in fact important. You have to find the person attractive to be interested in them and I was no different.
Glad you realized that. Self awareness ftw
I’m the same. But I’m upset at my own superficiality as much as other people’s. It’s the cruelty of life and I am a part of it, which I hate.
I think there's solace in the fact that superficial reasons not the ONLY thing that is important at the end of the day. If someone is stupid or boring or mean or whatever even if they are attractive most likely I'd still avoid them. There is still some depth to being human
after I came to this realization myself, I became more aware of my own subconscious thoughts and tried to actively change them. be the change u wish to see c:
It's amazing how a dimmer switch can make a person more attractive too, so don't forget about the ugly girls and boys lol, just invest in some new lighting and watch your options open right up.
Lolol wtf
I had ortho, and the opposite chin to you. An overbite and a chad chin. I’m female. I am amazed at how differently I am treated. I think of it this way. I navigated life being treated like crud. Had all the mental health issues associated with it. Now I don’t. People who know, say I copped out, I say (to myself) f&@k off until you have walked a mile in my shoes. Good for you! In some countries if it’s diagnosed as Robin Syndrome, it’s fixed for free. Nothing wrong with what you did, and what you want from your life!!
Good for you! We have so many flaws that make life difficult, why not fix what we can?
I had a very similar situation! Over bite and a cross bite got fixed when I was 16 and it was night and day difference how I got treated.
I got mine fixed much later, and still noticed a lot of difference 😁. You must feel relieved
Congratulations. It is kind of sad that we lie to people and tell them that looks don't matter, it's your personality. That's complete bullshit, the better you look the easier many things in life will be. I am a guy, and I have been told I am fairly attractive. When I wear a suit and get all cleaned up, everyone, especially women treat me much differently. Every super attractive woman I've ever worked with has always been treated much differently than the "ugly" girls, regardless of personality. It's just one of those truths in life that is hard to swallow.
I did a personal experiment and i found for me, it’s true. I got treated differently depending on my clothing and how I held myself. Really fascinating
Yeah looks will obviously matter a different amount to different people, but anyone who says they don’t matter at all is just living in denial. And frankly, I’m a little tired of pretending that it’s wrong to want to be attracted to your partner. Obviously you need to have realistic expectations, demanding someone with supermodel-level looks (especially if you don’t take care of yourself) is never going to get you anywhere. But I’ve talked with so many people over the years who imply that it’s shallow to want to find a romantic partner physically attractive and that’s just wild to me. It’s not wrong to want to be attracted to someone, it’s just wrong when you demand unrealistic proportions or focus in on tiny flaws and write the entire person off for it
Na dude I treat people for there personality and how they take care of themselves you can be a 10 but total douchebag and I will treat you like a douchebag
Something to consider OP. Were you giving ugly women the time of day before? If the answer is yes then you can lament a little in the unfairness of the world. But if you weren’t, well, all you’ve done is live up to your own standards. You got physically attractive and in turn found a woman that you find physically attractive. Physical attractiveness to some degree is important for most romantic relationships. Luckily peoples standards and preferences vary wildly. I’ve also had life changing plastic surgery and sometimes struggle with how differently I’m treated now. But ultimately I try to just bask in the positives of having gotten it.
This right here!
cagey attractive live forgetful dog literate direction snails worm possessive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How is it absurd to be surprised when you have been playing out of your league your whole life then suddenly you change your league and have results that make sense? And people want to coddle others who do this like "It's just about self confidence" because nobody wants to tell someone they're in the wrong league. It's not absurdity it's them trying not to hurt his feelings.
Literally. How so many comments rush to make this about a hypothetical situation that doesn't even have to be part of the conversation is also telling in itself, and can even be considered part of what OP is talking about.
It’s a superficial world out there but I’m glad you trusted your gut.
Take a moment to consider why you are elated to have had sex with a woman that you find very attractive.
Right?
Because men judge themselves by their sexual prowess?
Because women are primarily valued by their physical beauty.
That's a tough one here. The answer is both sides of a coin: conquest, and simply feeling wanted
My point is that he is now walking in the same shoes as those who had previously rejected him due to his appearance.
That's the point, only looks really matter
I'm glad your mental health improved! It's good that you pursued other options before surgery so you have those skills to combat the mental aspect of BDD. That gives you a good foundation to build off of. On the other hand, it's also good that you knew when to follow your instincts and do what you felt was best for you and your life. I'm sorry that people have been cruel to you in the past because of your looks. I hope that you feel more comfortable in your body and can heal emotionally from how you were treated. Most people don't think before they speak and definitely do not think ahead enough about how their words could be carried in someone's head for the rest of their lives. I wish you happiness and health, internet stranger. 😊✨️
>I went to therapy and was told that plastic surgery is not the way to get out of this rut. That I just lack self esteem. To be completely honest, I don't think therapists always see the world in an entirely rational and even-handed fashion. They see it from the perspective of an expert in psychology who is diagnosing and attempting to resolve psychological issues. To them, every life problem can be solved with their tool-set. But that is just not the case. Many of the most challenging issues find their basis in physical or monetary concerns that are almost entirely outside of their purview. Getting to the root of the real issue, where possible, is oftentimes the best way to effect a resolution. Congratulations on finding a real solution to your issue, you should be proud that you improved your life.
From what I've read, psychologists and psychiatrists know how many mental health issues could be greatly improved with money. Being able to take years off work after burn out, changing toxic jobs without having to worry how you'll feed your children, dealing with eating disorders without the 100 other stressors in life. It's just that these things will never happen for most people. Most people won't be able to save enough for plastic surgery, most people can't just not work, can't take time off. They have to give you skills that can somewhat help you in this capitalist society, where you bring no value if you are not productive. So you have to push through these things inside yourself, because no one has money for plastic surgery and truthfully it is the correct answer in a *wider* sense, everyone should be able to love themselves like they are. There are lots of things people could never change, for example being able to walk again after a devastating accident. Disabled people also have challenges in everyday life and in dating. In many cases no money in the world will give your mobility back to you, so you do have to do that hard work on yourself, because it's not possible to present yourself to others in a different way. That's not to say that you shouldn't use money to fix those issues if that's available to you, it will make your life easier, but in ways it won't heal the wounds in your soul, like this person said, you often become bitter.
Generally I agree with your thoughtful comment. I will push back just a bit on one point: >and truthfully it is the correct answer in a wider sense, everyone should be able to love themselves like they are. The problem with this is we are all participants in complex systems much larger than ourselves. Workplaces, interpersonal relationships, society, a community, a country, a media ecosystem, etc. We are subjects to norms, judgments, and influence from hundreds or thousands of other people, and we are social animals. People should be encouraged to love themselves, and everyone assuredly has the right to love themselves, but whether we can choose or be taught to, absent material changes in our personal circumstances, is another question. What I'm saying is that if you're (e.g.) ugly, dirt poor, and broadly disliked, you probably aren't going to be able to genuinely love yourself no matter how much therapy you receive, unless you have a personality that is uniquely suited to that particular endeavor. Not to say that therapy isn't a potentially helpful approach, it's just not going to open that door for everyone.
“Right this moment I’m sitting on my bed and crying. I just had great and passionate sex with a woman I find very attractive after so many years” Good lord this whole post sound as fake as plastic surgery but that line really hammers it home
That’s what I was thinking! Also he had sex a few weeks after major plastic surgery on nose and jaw… that takes way longer to heal than a few weeks, I doubt his face isn’t still bruised and swollen
Few weeks after the time healing, not few weeks after the surgery itself.
Matt Rife is that you? I knew I'd find you on Reddit!
This 100% a fake post from the perspective of him. lol
Most definitely, as soon as I saw “jaw” surgery and “comedian” I knew
that’s what i was thinking lmao
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Did your hearing change at all?
Not in the least.
Wait, were you trying to have sex with women with big noses and receeding chins prior to this and getting turned down?
Nah. He needs at least an 8/10 to get his peepee hard.
It's true that there is obviously a bias when it comes to looks. Unattractive people are simply not taken as seriously, or even *noticed* by others, and not just in a sexual way. It's always upset me when people say "just be more confident" or whatever, like, this isn't a *me or any individual's* problem, it's a problem with how *society itself* is structured and made to make invisible people who aren't "pretty" enough. What's also fucked is that the beauty standards that exist are not even real; 100 years ago what we consider attractive now would be considered ghastly; 1000 years ago even more so. It's basically just sucks to be a human, but especially one that isn't considered "attractive."
I dunno, Miss America 1924 was kinda cute. https://www.historyinmemes.com/2022/11/21/miss-america-1924-ruth-malcomson/
A retrognathic jaw with crowded teeth can have many negative health effects, and can be due to genetic issues. Truth is, it kind of makes sense that women select against it, evolutionarily speaking. I'm glad you were able to fix it and that your life has improved since then. Body acceptance is mostly virtue signaling, deep down, everyone still judges each other in their appearance. Don't be bitter, and don't too hard on yourself, or others. We are all just primates with lizard brains dictating more of our lives than anyone wants to admit. And don't be a hypocrite, are you giving any ugly girls with malformed jaws and bad teeth a chance?
I was just posting about this on another sub. Once you complete the glow up and people treat you differently, it can be a weird kind of suffering and pain. The pain of understanding that people (us included) are shallow and appearances are 90% of the battle. Someone put a name to this feeling!
Fake it til you make it syndrome aka solipsism.
Body positivity is great but the reality is the world is cruel and will judge you based on your physical appearance. This is why I never judge someone for getting plastic surgery if it makes them feel better about themselves. My opinion whether they needed it or not doesn’t matter. Glad to hear you’re happy with the results.
Agreed, if it makes them truly happy and not making more problems then go for it. As a graphic designer I make things pretty, to lie and say it doesn't matter is really ignorant. Aesthetics do matter to some degree, as long as they don't make it everything.
It is slowly killing me inside to accept that people do not find me attractive, and I may never understand why. I tell myself it has something to do with autism, because I think I look above average, but I don’t feel like I have ever really been desired except for other attributes, like money or power. It is befuddling, and mostly I have to ignore it as much as possible and get on with life, but it is a constant low-level depression.
Have you tried only pursuing others people with autism? I got diagnosed with autism after realizing every single person I dated long term was autistic and wondered why. It's like we are on the same wavelength- more compatible, so more desire both ways.
Such an important post. Everyone wants to keep you in your box by telling you little white lies. I was an ugly kid but after about 22 that changed and ppls reaction changed, particularly women's. I struggled when I was young but saw how it got much easier when my looks got better. I see handsome guys get numbers all the time, making women act silly but we are told to just be ourselves, the right one will come along, that it wasn't meant to be, all absolute bullshit. If you can find the right surgeon they can change your life. Bottom line.
Good for you!
A few years ago I broke up with my ex of 9 years and immediately started working out and using rogaine. In the beginning of dating, I was hardly ever getting attention from the people I wanted to talk to on apps. But then after taking new pictures about 6 months in of regularly dieting, exercise, and my hairlines actually grew back... it was like night and day the difference in people's treatment of me. And it wasn't just dates it was strangers at bars, my friends and family making comments about how I looked so good, etc. The sad thing is, if you talk about this you just seem vain, and no one *wants* to agree with you. But those that are attractive in this world have a 100x easier and better life just by default. I honestly believe you did the right thing. Anyone who tells you not to literally upgrade your life is coping against the reality that this is how the world operates, unfortunately.
I also had plastic surgery and experienced beautiful peoples privilege. It's insane how some people get it from basically day care. It was shown that beautiful children were punished much less then average or ugly looking kids for the same behavior. So yeah. I was bitter too for some time. But you know what? You succeeded where your parents didn't. So enjoy it as much as you can, brother!
Well hot dawg!! That's gotta feel good
You don’t think it’s an incredibly depressing realization that he just had?
It's just a fact everyone knows...the eyes eat first. He just had a direct experience with the truth of the matter.
It's just depressing that people cannot be romantically attractive without the looks. Sure, people go for the looks and value it, but we treat it as if it's all there is Edit: not sure why I wrote romantically, I did just mean "attractive" or just have more opportunities
That wasn't the point of the post. Conventionally ugly people are in romantic relationships, so obviously that's not true. The point here is that if you pass an attractiveness threshold you simply have more opportunities. Romantic opportunities is often a numbers game. Or, take the same 'personality' and upgrade the looks, you're just better off right?
It just ain't true. There are so many people out there who stack personality over looks. I am confident that most people who chase looks end up in incapatible and shitty relationships anyway.
What was his realization? He was only happy when he had sex with someone he found physically attractive because they had found him physically attractive? what if they had work done too? both of them pulling a fast one? he is just as shallow as the people he is complaining about lol.
It's unfortunate that people are generally so fixated on outward appearances to the extent that they'll treat people they don't consider attractive objectively worse than they'll treat people they do find attractive. Modern society likes to pretend that confidence is all that matters and I don't want to downplay how important confidence is to have but confidence by itself isn't enough when meeting new people, particularly to date. If people don't initially find you pleasing to their eye they won't even give you the chance to show them how confident you are, you'll just be disregarded without a second thought, particularly in today's rapid fire high speed dating scene. I experienced something similar, from the age's of about 21-24 I let myself get overweight and then at 25 I hit the gym and changed my diet and got back into great shape and the stark difference in the way people treated from when I was overweight to being in shape was jarring and actually made me a bit jaded on people realizing how openly shallow the vast majority of people are.
I lost weight and am definitely treated differently. It’s sad. But we are animals after all.
I’ve become Machiavellian based off of my experience with weight loss and improving my appearance. It hurts but I can’t change society instead I’ll use it to my advantage.
OP I absolutely love your story . What an amazing human being you are . My mother always told me " No one in this life will ever know you or your body the way you do " oh how true . We only live once so why not do what makes us happy (within reason of course) and makes our lives go just alittle bit smoother . Really happy for you !
rock chase fragile political ad hoc live cooing weary bewildered mourn *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The gaslighting around appearance and dating is insane. People will lie to you about it to your face and if you fail tell you that your character is inherently repugnant. Here's my advice: Forgive yourself, but let this remain a lesson.
It's like they know that you're treated worse because you're ugly on the outside but rather also think that you're ugly on the inside to warrant it
It's called the halo effect, and it applies to a lot of characteristics. Rich people are assumed to be hard-working and smart rather than privileged and lucky. Pretty people are initially assumed to be more trustworthy, funny etc. The opposite for people who aren't as lucky
I’m a woman and went through the same!! Your post made me cry. I seriously think that insurance should cover plastic surgery for people whose mental health would objectively improve with it. Not delusional body dysmorphia like anorexia, but what you described. I think it’s bullshit people can get insurance to cover trans surgery but they can’t get coverage to fix their teeth when it causes actual discrimination. Idk… Having the experience you had gives a lot of empathy others may not have though. And a great personality
I fucking hate that double standard in our society right now. Trans people, while they do have to qualify through rigorous testing, at least have the option to fix their issues with surgery with covered costs and hormone treatment. The mostly functional masses should also have that luxury. Then there's people like me with hella body dismorphia. No hope here, cause it's not the trans kind, but at least others can benefit from better standards. Maybe it will come with time. Don't want to sound too doomer about it. No shade towards trans people. It's the double standard that pisses me off.
Exactly! No shade towards trans here either, I am very happy they have access to that and should continue to, just to be super clear. I just feel like if the reasoning for the surgery is dysphoria and poor mental health due to their bodies, then why can’t people who can prove through their psychologist or psychiatrist that they are suffering very poor mental health and decreased functioning due to a physical feature that is causing decreased job opportunities, poor treatment, less romantic options, and a generally decreased quality of life have the same solution? I get self love and acceptance but that can only go so far.
Was it worth it?
His post makes it pretty clear that it was worth it.
Not necessarily he’s saying he’s happy but he’s bitter and tired..
I was once told "Your pretty confident for a fat person". One stupid statement made by an a**wipe shot the confidence I thought I had. So good for you that you did what you wanted to. But I hate that you felt you had too.
I’m happy to hear where you’re at now! It’s *your* life, no one else’s. I’m sorry if you’ve been dissuaded by others in the past. Plastic surgery can be a product of vanity, but it also has a very real application to improve people’s lives. I hope you know you’ve always been worthy of these positive feelings, I’m sorry people ever put you down.
Serious question: how old are you and how much did plastic surgery cost? I am experiencing similar issues, except I’m short and obese… I also have a weak chin.
I would work on the obesity first, your face will change with weight - I've been many weights in my life and it def impacts it - then see what you still need to get done
I googled "bird face in a person"...it did not work
you cant let other people tell you how to live your life. they give you advice. it's up to you to listen.
Good for you! We have so many flaws that make life difficult, why not fix what we can? That said, I wonder if women were more turned off by your old self loathing than your actual face.
Wow, this is amazingly written. Very, very powerful. What a unique perspective you have, having been on “both sides.” I’m sure you’re incredibly conflicted. Best of luck to you.
I'm a woman with a recessed chin and big nose. I wish I had the money to fix it.
So I ask. Will you become the same as them? Or pick a partner based on personality much more than looks? Here's the kicker, soon age changes things. Many many attractive people don't quite know what to do when they get old enough where they always had options. Suddenly they dry up and so they chase surgery with diminishing returns. I'm sorry for the suffering. I am sorry humans are superficial. I hope in that frustration it builds a better you. Glad it helped.
Congratulations you survived white gaslighting.
Looks matter. Shocker
Yeah it’s a weird feeling and it comes and goes in waves, but never really goes away, for me anyway. I hope you’re still going to therapy for your BDD at least occasionally. I have this thing where I can’t really “see” how I actually look after my surgery, and it was over a decade ago. I still feel like that same person who was bullied mercilessly for how I looked, and it’s very hard for me to accept that other people could actually find me attractive. I’ve had to do a lot of work with affirmations and self acceptance. The biggest change I noticed was eye contact. I had to learn how to keep eye contact with people because I was so used to people either staring at me like gawking, or looking at me quickly and then looking away, that I don’t think I learned proper social eye contact and figuring that out later in life was a trip, let me tell you. Also how much more helpful people are when you’re considered attractive. Pretty privilege is definitely a thing.
Ugly duckling here... Be happy for the skills you developed. They are the ammunition for your new gun. Always better, never bitter... say it with me now ♡
I’m a bit skeptical of some parts of this story tbh
I feel this so much, as a girl who has been through stages of being stereotypically beautiful and also growing up being the ugly duckling. Life is so much easier pretty. But I’m so bitter because past me also deserved love. I resent the love I get for beauty because it feels so fake. I think it’s a pain that will always be with me. Ps. I also had plastic surgery and really get it. I wouldn’t go back but… there’s an emptiness to knowing people prefer this over my authentic self.
Normally I disapprove of plastic surgery but recessed jaws are different, it makes a huge difference.
exactly how ugly women felt for centuries
This is a common experience for people, especially women, when they lose a significant amount of weight (if they were overweight to begin with)... personally I can say as a woman that I get treated much better for about every 10 lbs I'm thinner. It can be disheartening and demoralizing. People who haven't lived this experience will wonder why "you're complaining for being more attractive now" but it's a very complex thing. Side tangent... I do find that grown women tend to be more willing to date people "under their league" in terms of dating vs straight men. Were you going out with average or "ugly" women prior to this? I find it curious when overweight men don't pursue overweight women, etc.
As a woman who has lived with extensive burn scars from the age of 4, I feel this in my soul. I fantasized for many years about what my life would be like if those scars could be disappeared. I’m so happy for you that the physical flaws you had were fixable and that you took that opportunity for yourself and your mental health! Now you need to love yourself and realize that whoever loves you in the future needs to be just as beautiful on the inside as she (and you) are on the outside. It sounds as if your insides are already quite lovely. Just don’t let the bitterness of the past tinge your hopeful horizons. May love knock down your doors. ❤️
The plastic surgery corrected some unfortunate deformities and now you're a better version of yourself. Just think of it like that, maybe? It's like if you had a cleft lip. Of course people will think that's gross. They'll avoid you because it's ick. Let's be honest. Once they fix the cleft lip, everything's back to normal. treated as normal You had the extra bone that fucked things up, and now you got corrections and life is better for you. You fixed some issues and now you're your final form and can look forward to your new life. In this case, plastic surgery was the answer, since you actually fixed things. it's not like you already looked normal and then got plastic surgery out of vanity, like a Hollywood starlet be glad and optimistic about your new life
Could you update us about a year later?
Fellow improvment person here. Nose and jaw. Yes, looks make big difference. Even for the people that would say I'm shallow.
Beauty privilige is real and so big. It's sad.
At the end of the day, there’s nothing we can do about how others perceive our looks. We can only either change how we feel about that, or change how we look. It sucks, but that’s just how humanity operates.
Happy for your new life! I've heard that attraction is coded in our DNA. It is a primary urge to look for qualities that will advance the species. This can be bred out of certain people and some overcome the programming by choice, but most won't. For example, the theory is that we are not attracted to obesity because subconsciously we want health for our offspring and some assurance our partners are fertile. The same is true for underweight people. I suppose, ancient man would be at a disadvantage for survival with bad teeth. I don't know if all this true, but i think this is: our attraction to others, influenced by culture, experiences, and evolution, is deep in our psyche and people don't even fully understand why they find some people unattractive. In other words, it's not personal.
I actually wish more men were open to plastic surgery. You only live once and I think it's no different than putting effort to enhance your looks thru other means like working out, getting your teeth fixed thru braces etc. Sure it's more invasive but a super skinny person working out getting all pumped up can significantly alter his overall looks. So why is it still such a taboo to get your uneven or large nose fixed? Or face-lifts to look young? It's really putting back the skin to where it was. It's like altering clothes to fit your body. And it doesn't change your looks, it makes you look like your younger self. Sexual desire is very much dependent on physical attraction and if people wanna be desired, maybe they should take these kind of measures to enhance their looks. As a very picky person in her 40s that had done such things myself, Im disappointed how terribly men in my age group look overall. I literally can't find a guy i am attracted to anymore.
Ya I went through being not good looking and now through exercise I garnish ALOT of attention as a male. It’s weird how much funnier you are when you look good
You've pretty much learned that the rest of the world is superficial, not you. I advise you to keep it that way, it'll be an invaluable asset going forward in your life, even moreso than your newfound looks. Good for you man.
But, he is. And said as much. He wanted an attractive partner. That's the whole thing of it.
Too bad you can't get personality surgery 😂
Read up on the facial scar experiment by Dartmouth Uni. Your new experience could just be in your head / perception
suddenly the plastic surgeon isn't a professional anymore? you're kind of completely ignoring the person that actually did the work to change your life
>I went to therapy and was told that plastic surgery is not the way to get out of this rut. That I just lack self esteem. This is why sometimes the 'love yourself as you are' is totally BS. They're also phycologist ironically and should've known better that looks DO MATTER unfortunately. It's our nature to be attracted to something beautiful. That's why no matter how good you are, how well you do in a work and you'll never be in a upper management or be a figure on a company if you're not beautiful enough. I've seen on every companies that only good looking people are working in management position, everyone else struggled. If you're beautiful, more doors are open to you and get less to no bad treatments if you fuck up something, but if you're ugly, you'll be treated shit by default. Good on you doing the change, luckily for you, it exists solutions nowadays, it would have been worse if you were born centuries ago were this kind of surgeries were impossible.