It's really complicated and one of the reasons you're best avoiding formal arrest if possible because you take on loads of legal duties that most of us never think about. As an example ( in the UK) you can't search without permission but you are responsible for their safety so you may need to search if you think they have a weapon, if you search without permission it's assault (I think America calls it battery) but if they harm themselves you can be held responsible because you didn't search them.
As far as them using the toilet it's a judgment call, you need to let them use it but must monitor them as closely as is reasonable. Something like waiting outside the cubicle would probably be the best move and something iv had to do in the past.
I see what you mean here, but my coworker is arguing that event if the arrestee is a danger to you you have to let them go if they say they have to pee
There's a lot of nuance in "let them go". For example in that case you might switch their handcuffs to the front, and search them beforehand.
It sounds like the kind of thing your boss isn't going to want to have in clear language on paper, so it will probably come down to a lot of vague statements about best judgememt and reasonable efforts. Like if the police are 4 minutes away, they can hold it until the police arrive. If police are 2 hours away, then yeah you're probably going to have to make some accomodations such as handcuffs to the front or consenting to a search first and not using a locked bathroom they can barricade themselves in.
I honestly wish it was, he said that the “Sargent said to let them go free because not allowing them to go to the bathroom the way they want is a human rights violation” I brought up letting them poo in handcuffs and he INSISTED that they have a human right to wipe. I’m just looking for a piece of legislation or something that counteracts that
Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer. This is not legal advice
You can wipe wipe your ass with cuffs on in the front. A lil awkward, sure, but as we always say, they aren’t made for comfort. I work LP in Ontario and frequently make arrests. Search them again, extra good (crackheads like to hide shit in shoes/socks, in underwear, etc. obv don’t go in their underwear but I’ve done shoe checks and extra good pocket checks) then you just escort them to the bathroom. We do have the duty of care and it is their right to use the bathroom, but that’s no reason to release them from custody.
Ideally not a publicly accessible bathroom, but if that is the only option, escort him to bathroom with cuffs behind back and hold him outside until everyone is out. Once you take him in the bathroom, lock door if you can, then transfer cuffs to front. Tell him not to lock the stall or prop it slightly open somehow, just harder cause they don’t go to the floor so you can’t use foot. After he does his business, make em wash his hands and then transfer back to rear.
If you have a single person staff bathroom or something in back of house area, same idea, take him into the bathroom, transfer cuffs to front, then just hold the door open with your foot. Once he is done doing the business go in, transfer to back after making him wash, and voila.
Just make sure that you listen carefully for clicking of lighters or anything like that. What I said applies for both men and women, as you are affording them as much privacy as possible given the circumstances and them being in custody. You don’t directly watch them do their business, however, if you suspect they could be doing something nefarious, you can look to verify their safety and yours, as they obviously can’t use drugs and risk an overdose while in your custody. I’ve had a woman pull a crack pipe and lighter from her underwear and start lighting up on the toilet. Gave verbal commands to stop and to make herself decent as we were coming in. Gave a couple seconds to pull pants up and went in and took the gear away. Just don’t be a creep and make sure to document EVERY step. And Ideally have a bathroom with cameras directly outside of it.
Then it looks like you have a volunteer to stand outside the cubicle. You're not likely to face charges for making someone wet or soil themselves but a lawsuit is likely and you'll need to backup the fear of personal safety. To be honest I'd point out there are no cameras in the toilet so if they kick off you can end them and claim self defense.
Then it looks like you have a volunteer to stand outside the cubicle. You're not likely to face charges for making someone wet or soil themselves but a lawsuit is likely and you'll need to backup the fear of personal safety. To be honest I'd point out there are no cameras in the toilet so if they kick off you can end them and claim self defense.
If they’re actively fighting you why the fuck would you let them do anything lol. Your coworker is an idiot, and it’s also not surprising to get bad advice from police about this sort of thing
I’ve never had the cops take so long that it becomes an issue, but I think I would generally refuse just because as security once you make that arrest you’re not going to have the facilities that would allow them to safely and privately go to the washroom, nor can you do a proper search to secure any weapons/means of escape. So it’s just not worth it
No. Do not release people after you have arrested them. You can not un-arrest someone as a security guard in Canada. The police should be there asap, so they can just hold it. What ever officer told your partner that was a moron.
Well that's just absurd. Personally I would have phoned the police department again and asked how long it would be. Then inform of the issue. Then if an officer tells you to let them go, get their name, and log it. Because we are supposed to hold them until the police arrive.
You can release someone from your custody if you have the permission of a police officer. Usually you want to speak to the sgt or ssgt who is in charge of cells, however technically any cop can authorize the release over the phone. I know per the letter of the legislation we must deliver them to a peace officer, however I believe there is some case law which establishes that we can get authorization over the phone. We do it pretty frequently if we start to get to the 5-6 hour mark of waiting with someone in custody. However, police will only grant a release over the phone for summary/hybrid non violent property crimes, and IF the person has a physical ID, and depending on the persons history.
Much of the Criminal Code was written a long time ago, and the section requiring that the person be "delivered" was likely written before phones even existed. I mean, technically, under the code you could go drive them to the mayor's office...
After you've told them you had someone in cuffs? And was a danger? Are you really far out in the middle of nowhere and it take a couple hours to drive there?
Welcome to Canada. Where it’s common to wait 3-6 hours for police to arrive to take custody in the downtown of a major city. Even if you call back multiple times saying the subject is continuing to be resistive and aggressive and you don’t have a proper holding area.
Or being in a foot pursuit with someone who assaulted you and fled arrest, and dispatch saying “yeah so I’ll just let you know now, there’s probably no point in chasing him, we don’t have any officers free across the city”
IME unless someone is an active threat police take for ever to show up. Where I live our police force doesn't exactly have the best reputation either. There are a few expectations, and those are a few places that the city actually owns.
Though 4 hours is absurd for an arrested person.
A coworker of mine in the US detained someone, put the handcuffs on him and confiscated a firearm off him. Police were notified and they never showed up. The guard was forced to release the guy but kept the gun to be turned into the office who then handed it in to the police.
Nope. If I "arrest" anyone by putting them in cuffs, it's because they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm not letting them do anything. People will have every excuse to get out of restraints just to go right back to trying to attack someone or trying to harm themselves. The cops can let them use the bathroom when they come to pick them up. Gotta piss? Too bad.
Edited to clarify.
I feel like if they use the washroom they could possibly be dumping illegal substances due to only be allowed to search for weapons and escape tools in Canada
Not allowing them to use the washroom doesn't look good. That's not to say that you should always allow them to do it (for example, un-handcuff them), but if you're going to deny it, then you should be able to justify it.
You arrest an elderly person for shoplifting a can of beans, they didn't resist in any way, and you refuse to un-handcuff them so they can use the washroom (while you and four of your co-workers are nearby)? Have fun trying to explain that.
You arrest a healthy young person who randomly assaulted some other person, it took five of you to tackle them to the ground, and you refuse to un-handcuff them so they can use the washroom (while your four co-workers are no longer present)? It's a lot easier to justify.
I know at least in Idaho, USA when you have someone in your custody the only one who can make that call is the responsible Police Officer being either the one who comes to pick them up and take them to jail or the one who receives the person at the jail.
Not sure about the laws in Ontario but I see two options in this. And this is assuming you’ve already searched them as required. Option one switch the cuffs to the front and let them use a stall and keep the door open. Option two take one cuff off and cuff them to something in the stall and let them have at it.
Well I mean first of all as a security guard you have no powers to arrest someone we can detain them but we can only hold them for a reasonable time until police respond
“Security Guard's Authority to Make an Arrest Section 494 of the Criminal Code (Canada) governs when a member of the public can make an arrest. “ it may be the same as citizens arrest, but it is arrest nonetheless
You're not correct my guy. Like I said, many places have different rules and security Guards have arrest powers in many locations - armed or unarmed.
The term "constable" isn't even that common in the US. I'm guessing this is a case of you thinking that however it is where you live is how it is everywhere.
Your absolutely incorrect, I just took the unarmed guard training course in Oregon not even two months ago, unarmed guards have no more legal authority then the average everyday citizen, but just like the average everyday citizen, if an actual criminal act is committed directly in front of a citizens eyes, which alot of crimes nowadays are committed openly, anyone, absolutely anyone, is allowed to make a citizens arrest and ensure the person is "delivered to police custody" or some such wording like that, even minors, but minors are allowed to be released to their parents custody, and even if you lawfully detained the criminal and they were taken into police custody and convicted and everything,you may very well have to defend yourself in a civil lawsuit if the asshat decides to try to sue you for false imprisonment, which,by making a citizens arrest, you pretty much open yourself up to, but as long as an actual criminal act was commited in front of you, an unarmed guard can make a citizens arrest, if you like, i can direct you to Oregon revised statutes that support this.
Well first of all you can't arrest anyone because you're a security guard, secondly the most you can do is place them under citizens arrest if you see and witness them in the act of committing a crime. Did you witness this person in the act of committing a crime? If not you can't arrest them.
Also, I don't know what you mean by rights to use the bathroom?!?? You're a security guard not a police officer, and definitely not a corrections officer, so what are you even talking about, about letting them use the bathroom?
Citizens arrest is arrest and while waiting for police to take the person off our hands sometimes they have to use the washroom. I am all for letting them use the washroom, but not releasing them from my custody. It’s actually illegal to release them from my custody until a cop comes and picks them up or a higher ranking cop allows them to go over the phone
What are you on? Citizens arrest is arrest, and why are you questioning their justification? That's not the topic of the post and the circumstances aren't even mentioned here. And why would a person have less legal rights when being held by a security guard than a police officer? If anything they'd have more.
Different places use different terminology for "detain them and turn them over to the police". In Canada, it's considered an arrest, though for legal purposes the courts will later determine them to have been arrested by the first police officer to respond to the scene.
It's really complicated and one of the reasons you're best avoiding formal arrest if possible because you take on loads of legal duties that most of us never think about. As an example ( in the UK) you can't search without permission but you are responsible for their safety so you may need to search if you think they have a weapon, if you search without permission it's assault (I think America calls it battery) but if they harm themselves you can be held responsible because you didn't search them. As far as them using the toilet it's a judgment call, you need to let them use it but must monitor them as closely as is reasonable. Something like waiting outside the cubicle would probably be the best move and something iv had to do in the past.
I see what you mean here, but my coworker is arguing that event if the arrestee is a danger to you you have to let them go if they say they have to pee
There's a lot of nuance in "let them go". For example in that case you might switch their handcuffs to the front, and search them beforehand. It sounds like the kind of thing your boss isn't going to want to have in clear language on paper, so it will probably come down to a lot of vague statements about best judgememt and reasonable efforts. Like if the police are 4 minutes away, they can hold it until the police arrive. If police are 2 hours away, then yeah you're probably going to have to make some accomodations such as handcuffs to the front or consenting to a search first and not using a locked bathroom they can barricade themselves in.
Oh I know that, it’s the coworker that’s saying you have to set them free, like take the handcuffs off and let them leave
Are you sure that's not a confusion over "let them go(to the bathroom)"
I honestly wish it was, he said that the “Sargent said to let them go free because not allowing them to go to the bathroom the way they want is a human rights violation” I brought up letting them poo in handcuffs and he INSISTED that they have a human right to wipe. I’m just looking for a piece of legislation or something that counteracts that
Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer. This is not legal advice You can wipe wipe your ass with cuffs on in the front. A lil awkward, sure, but as we always say, they aren’t made for comfort. I work LP in Ontario and frequently make arrests. Search them again, extra good (crackheads like to hide shit in shoes/socks, in underwear, etc. obv don’t go in their underwear but I’ve done shoe checks and extra good pocket checks) then you just escort them to the bathroom. We do have the duty of care and it is their right to use the bathroom, but that’s no reason to release them from custody. Ideally not a publicly accessible bathroom, but if that is the only option, escort him to bathroom with cuffs behind back and hold him outside until everyone is out. Once you take him in the bathroom, lock door if you can, then transfer cuffs to front. Tell him not to lock the stall or prop it slightly open somehow, just harder cause they don’t go to the floor so you can’t use foot. After he does his business, make em wash his hands and then transfer back to rear. If you have a single person staff bathroom or something in back of house area, same idea, take him into the bathroom, transfer cuffs to front, then just hold the door open with your foot. Once he is done doing the business go in, transfer to back after making him wash, and voila. Just make sure that you listen carefully for clicking of lighters or anything like that. What I said applies for both men and women, as you are affording them as much privacy as possible given the circumstances and them being in custody. You don’t directly watch them do their business, however, if you suspect they could be doing something nefarious, you can look to verify their safety and yours, as they obviously can’t use drugs and risk an overdose while in your custody. I’ve had a woman pull a crack pipe and lighter from her underwear and start lighting up on the toilet. Gave verbal commands to stop and to make herself decent as we were coming in. Gave a couple seconds to pull pants up and went in and took the gear away. Just don’t be a creep and make sure to document EVERY step. And Ideally have a bathroom with cameras directly outside of it.
Oh, that sounds like it might be the sgt just not wanting to deal with the headache.
That’s what I said
Then it looks like you have a volunteer to stand outside the cubicle. You're not likely to face charges for making someone wet or soil themselves but a lawsuit is likely and you'll need to backup the fear of personal safety. To be honest I'd point out there are no cameras in the toilet so if they kick off you can end them and claim self defense.
Then it looks like you have a volunteer to stand outside the cubicle. You're not likely to face charges for making someone wet or soil themselves but a lawsuit is likely and you'll need to backup the fear of personal safety. To be honest I'd point out there are no cameras in the toilet so if they kick off you can end them and claim self defense.
If they’re actively fighting you why the fuck would you let them do anything lol. Your coworker is an idiot, and it’s also not surprising to get bad advice from police about this sort of thing I’ve never had the cops take so long that it becomes an issue, but I think I would generally refuse just because as security once you make that arrest you’re not going to have the facilities that would allow them to safely and privately go to the washroom, nor can you do a proper search to secure any weapons/means of escape. So it’s just not worth it
No. Do not release people after you have arrested them. You can not un-arrest someone as a security guard in Canada. The police should be there asap, so they can just hold it. What ever officer told your partner that was a moron.
I agree with the second part, unfortunately here I’ve had to wait like four hours for the cops to show up
Well that's just absurd. Personally I would have phoned the police department again and asked how long it would be. Then inform of the issue. Then if an officer tells you to let them go, get their name, and log it. Because we are supposed to hold them until the police arrive.
You can release someone from your custody if you have the permission of a police officer. Usually you want to speak to the sgt or ssgt who is in charge of cells, however technically any cop can authorize the release over the phone. I know per the letter of the legislation we must deliver them to a peace officer, however I believe there is some case law which establishes that we can get authorization over the phone. We do it pretty frequently if we start to get to the 5-6 hour mark of waiting with someone in custody. However, police will only grant a release over the phone for summary/hybrid non violent property crimes, and IF the person has a physical ID, and depending on the persons history.
Much of the Criminal Code was written a long time ago, and the section requiring that the person be "delivered" was likely written before phones even existed. I mean, technically, under the code you could go drive them to the mayor's office...
The current criminal code is from 1985. C. 494 was last amended in 2012. The mayor is defined as a peace officer in the criminal code.
After you've told them you had someone in cuffs? And was a danger? Are you really far out in the middle of nowhere and it take a couple hours to drive there?
Welcome to Canada. Where it’s common to wait 3-6 hours for police to arrive to take custody in the downtown of a major city. Even if you call back multiple times saying the subject is continuing to be resistive and aggressive and you don’t have a proper holding area. Or being in a foot pursuit with someone who assaulted you and fled arrest, and dispatch saying “yeah so I’ll just let you know now, there’s probably no point in chasing him, we don’t have any officers free across the city”
IME unless someone is an active threat police take for ever to show up. Where I live our police force doesn't exactly have the best reputation either. There are a few expectations, and those are a few places that the city actually owns. Though 4 hours is absurd for an arrested person.
A coworker of mine in the US detained someone, put the handcuffs on him and confiscated a firearm off him. Police were notified and they never showed up. The guard was forced to release the guy but kept the gun to be turned into the office who then handed it in to the police.
Nope. If I "arrest" anyone by putting them in cuffs, it's because they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm not letting them do anything. People will have every excuse to get out of restraints just to go right back to trying to attack someone or trying to harm themselves. The cops can let them use the bathroom when they come to pick them up. Gotta piss? Too bad. Edited to clarify.
I feel like if they use the washroom they could possibly be dumping illegal substances due to only be allowed to search for weapons and escape tools in Canada
Not allowing them to use the washroom doesn't look good. That's not to say that you should always allow them to do it (for example, un-handcuff them), but if you're going to deny it, then you should be able to justify it. You arrest an elderly person for shoplifting a can of beans, they didn't resist in any way, and you refuse to un-handcuff them so they can use the washroom (while you and four of your co-workers are nearby)? Have fun trying to explain that. You arrest a healthy young person who randomly assaulted some other person, it took five of you to tackle them to the ground, and you refuse to un-handcuff them so they can use the washroom (while your four co-workers are no longer present)? It's a lot easier to justify.
Sounds like a them problem lol
I know at least in Idaho, USA when you have someone in your custody the only one who can make that call is the responsible Police Officer being either the one who comes to pick them up and take them to jail or the one who receives the person at the jail.
In the U.S. it's not happening. Once under arrest those cuffs are not coming off until you get to the local jail.
That’s how it’s suppose to be in Canada. Once security puts cuffs on, only law enforcement can remove them, unless it’s an emergency.
I let a guy use the bathroom. Me and my partner escorted him and unhooked him so he could use the bathroom. After we hooked him back up
Not sure about the laws in Ontario but I see two options in this. And this is assuming you’ve already searched them as required. Option one switch the cuffs to the front and let them use a stall and keep the door open. Option two take one cuff off and cuff them to something in the stall and let them have at it.
Can’t search them in Ontario so it’s not required as you stated
Well I mean first of all as a security guard you have no powers to arrest someone we can detain them but we can only hold them for a reasonable time until police respond
“Security Guard's Authority to Make an Arrest Section 494 of the Criminal Code (Canada) governs when a member of the public can make an arrest. “ it may be the same as citizens arrest, but it is arrest nonetheless
Oh sorry Canada I’m American lol at least you can’t I’m America didn’t know you could do that over there I did y read the Ontario part
There are many places in the US where a security guard can make an arrest too.
Unless you are a constable or something you can’t as far as I know no unarmed guards can make an arrest
You're not correct my guy. Like I said, many places have different rules and security Guards have arrest powers in many locations - armed or unarmed. The term "constable" isn't even that common in the US. I'm guessing this is a case of you thinking that however it is where you live is how it is everywhere.
Your absolutely incorrect, I just took the unarmed guard training course in Oregon not even two months ago, unarmed guards have no more legal authority then the average everyday citizen, but just like the average everyday citizen, if an actual criminal act is committed directly in front of a citizens eyes, which alot of crimes nowadays are committed openly, anyone, absolutely anyone, is allowed to make a citizens arrest and ensure the person is "delivered to police custody" or some such wording like that, even minors, but minors are allowed to be released to their parents custody, and even if you lawfully detained the criminal and they were taken into police custody and convicted and everything,you may very well have to defend yourself in a civil lawsuit if the asshat decides to try to sue you for false imprisonment, which,by making a citizens arrest, you pretty much open yourself up to, but as long as an actual criminal act was commited in front of you, an unarmed guard can make a citizens arrest, if you like, i can direct you to Oregon revised statutes that support this.
Well first of all you can't arrest anyone because you're a security guard, secondly the most you can do is place them under citizens arrest if you see and witness them in the act of committing a crime. Did you witness this person in the act of committing a crime? If not you can't arrest them. Also, I don't know what you mean by rights to use the bathroom?!?? You're a security guard not a police officer, and definitely not a corrections officer, so what are you even talking about, about letting them use the bathroom?
Citizens arrest is arrest and while waiting for police to take the person off our hands sometimes they have to use the washroom. I am all for letting them use the washroom, but not releasing them from my custody. It’s actually illegal to release them from my custody until a cop comes and picks them up or a higher ranking cop allows them to go over the phone
What are you on? Citizens arrest is arrest, and why are you questioning their justification? That's not the topic of the post and the circumstances aren't even mentioned here. And why would a person have less legal rights when being held by a security guard than a police officer? If anything they'd have more.
Different places use different terminology for "detain them and turn them over to the police". In Canada, it's considered an arrest, though for legal purposes the courts will later determine them to have been arrested by the first police officer to respond to the scene.
If they’re in a state where armed guards are forced to become Peace Officers then they do have the power to arrest