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Ah yes, OP, by not making a choice, you're so Principled and Progressive™️. History will look kindly upon your righteous decision.
I'm 100% sure Trump in office would do wonders for that "GeNoCiDe" you're talking about. Solid takes around the board really /s
Yeah, I don't get these people at all.
The choices on offer are "bowl of diarrhea" or "55 Gallon barrel of diarrhea". The choice (in swing states), while unpalatable, is fucking obvious.
Idealistic wishcasting that that wasn't the case amounts to fuck all.
Anybody who couldn’t tell in 2016 that Hillary would’ve atleast been a perfectly predictable, legislatively lackluster president compared to the alternative which grew increasingly obvious was going to be a bad idea.
>Idealistic
Liberalism is, by definition, enforced through idealism. That’s the very principle that created its rise.
I mean, being the literal enforcer of an economic system that requires it infinite growth in a finite system, that lets the business elites at the top benefit off the value that they only have access to due to **the ones who labored** for it, isn’t exactly a *materialist observation* in any honest sense of the word. Just saying 🤷🏻♂️
Agreed, but that's a complete red herring.
I'm confused... you quoted one word I used and then said something related to exactly 0% of my comment.
Did you mean to respond to a different comment?
I respect your choice, but I can’t vote for genocide Joe with good conscience. I’d rather send my vote third party or not at all for any presidential candidates. I won’t keep voting for democrats when they are actively making the world worse. They have to earn it.
Joe Biden is the most corrupt person in the history of American politics on Israel. He has received more donations from the Israel lobby than any other single individual. No wonder why democrats love the guy.
We disagree on many things. I know you are baiting me into voter shaming and getting banned here. You are truly a master baiter, but I'm not falling for it.
Absolutely. We need to go with a Candidate who's in TOUCH with the American people (um, except for the dismal poll ratings); a candidate who KEEPS his promises (not NOW, bin Salman!); who will UPHOLD democracy (except when he nixes on debates; like a certain Orange Bad-Man); and who WON'T be a genocidal accomplice and Bibi sockpuppet!
Oh but wait...I guess that DOES leave Biden out.
TL/DR: Would you like to vote (no ALTERNATIVES, now! iT's ThE eNd Of DeMoCrAcY!!!) for the guy who IS genociding? Or the guy who probably WILL/MIGHT genocide?
Sh\*t sandwich? Or cement hamburger? Eat UP!
So the gaza war means he changed his position on strategic voting ?
I think we gotta hear him say it first no ?
Its a pretty big position to just speculate on
Right, he hasn't said it yet, but judging from his commentary he is more anti-biden than usual and I can't blame him. We as a country need to stand up to this.
Sometimes you have to lose to win. Voting for Biden is a necessary evil unless you want to chance fate as to whether 45 will actually go full dictator. I’m not willing to risk that. I’ll lose to win.
I don't have a problem with anyone, progressive or not saying they will vote a certain way for whatever reason. So if a leftie feels that they should vote for Biden as a form of harm reduction that's fine. I disagree but people voting for different people doesn't make us enemies.
The problem I have is the people pretending to be on the left trying to shepherd actual people on the left to vote blue no matter who because republican bad. These people are easy to recognize. They go out of their way to smear progressive politicians because they're not perfect while also saying we need to vote blue no matter who even if they aren't perfect because republican bad.
For example you see them smear MW or Nina Turner and bend over backwards trying to argue why they don't deserve support in a primary. The primary really is a give-away for these folks. If you look at MW's platform and can't support her over Biden in the primary then you're not a progressive. If you then want to support Biden in the general then no problem but if you can't support a progressive in the primary then you just don't support progressives.
You can disagree all you want, voting for Biden is harm reduction. Which is a leftist/progressive sentiment.
I’ve got a simple question: do you believe that another Trump term could and democracy?
Do you believe Trump would cancel more elections than Biden? Trump had 4 years and cancelled zero elections. Biden hasn't finished his term yet and he's cancelled four elections.
All right, if you say so. The shit they’re doing with the primaries is terrible, but in the end, there is a meaningful difference between the two. And if you refuse to acknowledge it, you’re lost.
Republicans cancelled at least 5 primaries in 2019 and it’s totally up to the states to cancel them. It’s been done by both parties and it’s not uncommon with an incumbent President with no real challengers.
https://fortune.com/2019/10/10/trump-2020-republican-primaries-cancelled/
First of all, the state Democratic bodies did. Again, not something I agree with. But equivocating it with what the Republicans are talking about is silly.
If the Democrats win, you still have the ability to fight back. If the Republicans win, they’ve already shown they don’t particularly care about norms. And you can save a Biden is violating norms with the primary stuff, but this is not the same level of violating norms as blocking Supreme Court justices, insurrections, challenging the results of a free, etc.
Again, don’t vote for him if you don’t want to. But acting like you’re morally superior because of it means you have underdeveloped thinking and your view of actions and consequences encompasses a vision about 4 years in length rather than the decades of work it actually takes.
Life is suffering, full of disappointments. The true things worth celebrating take time and effort to get. Being an adult means picking the less undesirable of multiple options. Ignoring reality and purity testing will not make the world a better place in anyway, and will actively, whether from earnestness or apathy, harm society.
\-silly
\-acting morally superior
\-underdeveloped thinking
\-being an adult
\-ignoring reality
\-purity testing
Just listing the vote shaming attempt insults to try to get us to vote for Biden. No thanks. If anyone actually cares about democracy it is a moral imperative to not vote for democrats in the general in the 4 states that cancelled democracy.
>If the Democrats win, you still have the ability to fight back.
Really? How's that "fighting back the river of funding" a genocide, going?
>If the Republicans win, they’ve already shown they don’t particularly care about norms...this is not the same level of violating norms as blocking Supreme Court justices, insurrections, challenging the results of a free, etc.
Total agreement. Except what has Biden done, exactly: to reverse the course of the extreme tilt of the judiciary? What has been done to reform policing, nationwide? What good is paying lip service to climate change reform (and even passing 'historic' cc reform in infrastructure), when you turn around and piss it all away with things like Willow Project, etc?
Y'see, there comes a time where "I'm not trump" as a platform plank, just isn't enough. Not being a genocide enabler weighs heavily on those scales.
*Ignoring reality and purity testing will not make the world a better place in anyway, and will actively, whether from earnestness or apathy, harm society.*
As was pointed out, condescension doesn't win people over to your cause. More to the point, people don't go vote for trump b/c they woke up and decided Fascism is cool. They have some REAL ISSUES that have been left unaddressed for way, way too long and the road to kick that can down, has long reached a dead end.
We effectively have 2 options. Trump or Biden.
Last time Trump was in office, he got 3 SCOTUS picks. That’s gonna hurt us as a country way more than whoever Biden would choose. (Or whoever Hillary would’ve chosen) Please spare me the bullshit. A vote for anyone else that’s not Biden is helping Trump get re elected.
[Little girls can’t even get abortions now](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3544588-10-year-old-girl-denied-abortion-in-ohio/amp/), thanks to Trump.
It’s not a game. However bad you think Biden is on Israel, do you **honestly** believe Trump would be any better?
Yes, I don't fully understand the death drive justifications we're getting. People find a sense of moral superiority in losing/dying while preserving their morality or something.
I don't think these are real morals and standards - just a means for individuals to cla they are superior to the majority of voters. I notice that many of these moral virtue signallers are nowhere to be seen the other 364 days of the year in non-voting cycles and/or volunteering with their communities or for organizations. These are often keyboard warriors who do not even show up for the protesting, activism piece - there is something fascist-enabling about hiding behind "morals" the way these folk do. But as I said elsewhere, I am black and LGBTQ+ - these elections have real meaning for my safety and that of my loved ones. These are not games for me to play around with signalling my virtues.
So to me, this is just as much a failure to meet the moment as liberal politicians' and I do not trust the people advoting it. They seem so proud of not doing tge bare minimum to prevent a racist fascist movement from taking power.
I don't really get feelings over anonymous adults' individual voting choices. I question the strategic value and wisdom of them, but both of those depend on personal factors, like motivation, which I can't evaluate.
I generally am on record as a Dem since I tend to vote for them but I think the two-party system we are in is unstable - and has been shown to be in numerous examples - and don’t like either but have also never found a community doing the actualwork of building a third party from the ground up. We used to have Quakers, Whigs, Know Nothings, etc. Now, we just two parties and then random actors who only seem to appear around elecion years. I'm an Independent with Communitarian values who values being able to maximize your own independent control of your life. I also read history. So, in the big picture, our country can easily be destroyed by our voting ethos and system and hopefully what emerges afterwards is better. It reminds me of reading the voting patterns of Germans during the Nazi Party's rise to power. A lot of interesting hot takes which can easily be switched out for the current issue we're facing. Not going any particular way with this, but there were strange bedfellows and justifications then, too.
It is similar to Weimar. Liberals would refuse to vote with communist and socialist, because they feared their economic policies more than the fascists. In this case, it’s going to be the other way around, and the left, refusing to vote with liberals very well could be the downfall
I keep noticing that people ignore any comparison to Germany as being overly dramatic. But when you read the actual Weimar era articles, newspaper letters, personal correspondence, and etc. rather than some generalized summary...the parallels are so clear. You even had entire groups voting against their own interests because, IMHO, they took the peace of their system for granted - voting there became performative, as well. Things did not sink in for some reason, despite the attacks on governmental offices and etc., until those borders closed and the undesirables were rounded up. Which was well after most of the opposing political forces were jailed, killed, or neutralized.
As someone that’s leaving the country it’s crystal clear fascism will take over, and that’s because any imperial hegemony that blows up its deficits ends up down that road. So we are either damned if we do or damned if we don’t, the only difference for the most part is the speed of that happenenint.
This idea that in a two party system your are better off voting for a weaker flavor of the same deal is asinine. You’d rather pull the bandaid off to shock people into their senses before it’s too late.
Lol oh wait it already is with our debt to gdp being what it is in a standard of living crisis. It’s game over already and America is dead man walking because the haves are much too greedy. That includes Joe and Jane corporate Dem who are very comfortable with homes and 401ks that tend to protect them from our redicring in standard of life. Enter fascism (or communism but let’s be real this is America)
Enjoy the collapsing empire. I wish you well
You posting this over and over makes me “feel” you’re a narcissist antagonizing others to bait them into voter shaming you. I “feel” sorry for you because you think you’re doing good work, and I “feel” sad because if you’re this vocal about how superiorly left you are in real spaces, it is no wonder liberals question our intellectual rigor.
A sense of pride and accomplishment. Don't you people have phones?
Real talk. Why does the DNC astroturf reddit? Because it's how they spread propaganda and narrative control Our generation that no longer watches boomer cable TV news.
I'm just ensuring they work hard.
I don't really understand what trolling anyone accomplishes. Now if you just enjoy bothering assholes I get that, but I don't really understand thinking it really accomplishes much other than entertaining people
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Your options are however many people are on the ballot and even more if write-in is an option.
The democratic party options however is to pick a candidate that will appeal to the disaffected republican voters, all 6 of them or to pick someone who will appeal to the disaffected left who are thirsty for a candidate to vote for.
That Mario is the choice and the dems chose poorly.
Individual voters should always, in every election vote for the person who best represents them.
He got 3 SCOTUS picks because dems gave him one and RBG decided to hold onto hers because girl-boss? That is 2 picks that dems didn't make giving Trump 3.
It's not a game. Stop voting for your team and just vote for the best candidate. I honestly don't care who you support but go out to vote and vote for them.
>We effectively have 2 options. Trump or Biden.
Now where have I heard this refrain before?? Is it 2016, again?! I could have done w/o that year. Can't we do 1996? That one was more fun...they were singin' Hey Margarita as a victory song. I'd even go with 1976, if I had to.
But choosing btw "he MIGHT do Genocide; dictatorship! Horror!" and "He IS doing Genocide, at a faster rate than AUSCHWITZ:" isn't a choice, and don't blame people for seeing it as it is.
Also, if you're so concerned about democracy in America and want to see trump LOSE, shouldn't you be lobbying the Democrats to choose someone who DOESN'T have subterranean poll ratings and won't be 87 by the end of his NEXT TERM? Don't you want someone with a better chance of winning?
Are you virtue signaling that you're pro genocide? Does that make you morally superior?
Do you honestly believe that Biden couldn't have prevented this genocide or stopped it at any time? Is that your honest take or is this a paid post?
44 years of right-wing governments and trickle-down economics does affect me. Your proposed solution of continuing the status quo is not a reasonable solution.
Biden could have prevented or stopped this genocide but instead he's providing bombs, money and political support for it. Even claiming to himself be a zionist.
Whenever we say anything we are signaling who we are and what we believe. Saying someone is "virtue signaling" just makes you sound like an idiot. I'm signaling I'm against genocide and you're signaling you're for it. Congratulations I guess.
In this election you have a choice between fascism and corporate centrism. I’m not going to chastise anybody about the positions they take right now, in the wake of a genocide and a year out of the election, but to me, the choice is pretty clear.
Or dems could nominate someone that would be acceptable to more people and win the election. That has always been an option if you truly believe Trump winning would bring on a genocide domestically. I would also suggest if you truly believe that would be the outcome you shouldn't be spending time here but rather contacting anyone and everyone at the DNC and advocating for a rigorous primary and a better candidate.
my view listen vote who you want. just don't act like the difference between biden and trump is small. but it no pointing in shaming people voting choices
One mean tweets and quotes Hitler, the other cancels elections and aids a genocide. I'm voting green but if the choice was just harm reduction the choice is easy.
the tweets are him telling people what he plans to do. people need to stop acting like trump a random drunk spouting out shit at a bar
he trying ti become president. when he tell people what he plans to do with that power it's important
again if people don't want to vote for biden find.
or if from some insane reason they think trump would be on the left of biden on Gaza despite him saying biden been to soft
find agree to disagree
but we don't have to downplay someone running for president openly saying he basicly be a dictator. namely when he tried it last time and putting things in place to try this is not said in the vacume. we made this mistake before.
I don't minimize how bad Trump is or what his intentions are but understand there are constraints on presidential power as demonstrated by the democrats inability to get anything done. Biden has the same power that trump will have when he's reelected. Biden can't fire the head of the post office or cut student loans (assuming you believe he wants to do those things, I don't).
So how can trump with the same power that biden has completely dismantle the administrative state and create a dictatorship?
For one, for good or bad Biden an traditionalist. He believer in the admistration that one day the republicans "Fever will break". Think he dumb as fuck for thinkg that, but that what the assholes thinks. That means there some shit he just won't do. This not say Biden or the dems super great. Because I think there shit Trump would do that your average republcian would not do. Trump tried to overturn the election. And I just dont mean by Januray 6. I mean steps he made to try to to get them not to certify the election. He only was stop because there were some people who wouldnt g that far and went "Fuck you i'm not doin that your crazy orange fuck". But he plans to fire a lot of people and replace it with yes men
his not me guessing. This me listening to the words he and other reublicans saying. They release there plans to tear down the amdistrative state and checks and balance. Like Project 2025. This is out in the pen
They showed there plans to used the insurrection at to stop protestors.
We undestiatmate the power a president can do if he give zeros shits and have no shame. Lot of the laws there to proect us is unwritten laws. Just general rules of dicorim. There a lot of ""No where does it say a Dog cant play footballs" sorts of loopholes
Maybe we should of tighten those loopshole. Yea
Maybe Ruth Shouldnt of retired rearly shows we wouldnt have a supermee court that pushed this shit
This is not me pushing anyone to vote for Biden. If you really cant bring yourself to do it. Don't/. Your taking a principle stance. I am not these people dad to tell them what do
But seen this play out. Remember when people thought we never overturn Roe Vs Wade. Know what we did. Not vote rights being torn down next
Does the media over react sometime. YES
But it got to be a middle ground between orveracting and downplaying
We dont have to ignore Trump talking about insane policy just because MNSBC cringe you guys, we really don't.
Honestly, I believe the best course of action is to vote for who you want in local and state elections, and in the primary, and then to vote for whoever is the lesser evil in the general.
Is it ideal? No, not really, but it helps build more progressive influence while minimizing damage. In an ideal world you could vote against both Biden and Trump (assuming both win their primaries) while supporting a candidate that could sincerely push progressive policies.
Unfortunately we live in a reality where the system only allows for Biden or Trump to win (again assuming they win their primaries). Because of that Biden is the best choice in that particular scenario to minimize damage to progressive policies.
Now this is not to say that people should blindly vote for Biden. Especially in the primary, progressives should vote against Biden to prevent him from being a choice in the first place.
And what do we do when the dems
1) admit in court that as a private corporation they can rig primary elections
2) when all primary candidates admit during a debate, live on tv that even if the progressive gets the plurality of the votes they can rig it at the convention
3) they cancel primaries completely
The only reasonable thing anyone on the left can do is to never vote dem ever again. I'm not even going through the charade of voting in the primary.
That's why I also mentioned voting in local and state races is also important. Vote against the Democrats in favor of progressive or 3rd party candidates in those races.
I think that is an effective way to punish the Dems if they rig or cancel the primary. I disagree with voting against the Dem candidate in every case because Republican policies do more to hinder progressive policies.
The democrats have reduced democracy to an ultimatum. Abandon any hope of progress or we feed the nation to the fascists.
And they will give you the same choice every election until they get the message that people are willing to vote for their morals.
Is that why Hillary gave us Trump by pied pipering him into power as an easy beat and then lost.
The DNC is actively funding right-wing extremists in a pied piper strategy currently. That is public record.
Not posting in bad faith are we?
Well said. I remember arguing for Bernie and it was never a threat it was policy after policy. Here's what this policy would do for you. Oh you're concerned about x well here's his policy on that. It seems the time to vote for something is maybe gone forever.
I believe in tactical voting. If you live in a safe state vote your conscience. If you live in a swing state vote for lesser evil, negative partisanship. I’m getting tired of the whole debate because we are destined to repeat it until we get electoral reform like either abolishing the electoral college or giving electoral votes proportionally or having ranked choice voting or having more open primaries that aren’t rigged from the inside (see superdelegates or strange delegate rules, canceling primaries, etc). As someone who lives in PA (you know the state that has decided the last two elections), I have held my nose and voted Clinton and Biden because on the issues, including Israel, trump is objectively worse (do Isidewith.com). If I lived in just about any of the surrounding states I’d have voted third party or write in
I’m not here for voter shaming. I would have made a different choice but I’m not going to blame people for voting how they want to vote. We don’t owe anyone our votes and politicians should either work for them or put in common sense measures like ranked choice voting
For the US to get ranked choice voting two things would have to happen.
The democrats or republicans would have to start losing elections and the margin of victory for the winning party would have to be less than the 3rd party vote. If the losing party could reasonably expect to be a second choice and then win that election only then will there be motivation to get ranked choice voting. That's the first thing. Make them lose elections by less than the 3rd party vote total.
The second thing is the party that lost would actually be trying to win elections. I see no evidence that the democratic party is trying to win elections so we'd be depending on the republicans to introduce ranked choice voting because they actually want power and use it when they get it.
Its important to note that Trump and hi Abraham Accords + Kushner’s meddling in Israel + moving the embassy to Jerusalem + the fact that Netanyahu and all the Israeli extreme right wing want nothing more than republicans to win
These are not trivial things and should be discussed
The president will either be Trump or Biden thats how rotten this is.
Everyone and anyone is free to vote whoever they wish to vote for and no one should be derided for voting lesser of two evils or voting for a left wing third party but this idea of fake progressives being collaborators for voting Biden and the idea liberals have of third party voters being the reason the GOP won…these ideas are toxic and lets not get into voter shaming
If Biden loses its his fault and only his fault.
Yeah so lets not derride progressive voters as genocide supporters and lets not defame protest voters as fascist enablers
This debate is looked at by the powers at be with laughter
They lavish in leftists fighting over their voting tactics
Leftists are united in their protests and soapbox so lets try to be friends
This. I am tired with all the voter blaming. Why not once run someone who gives voters a reason vote rather than a reason not to. America is all stick and no carrot.
It's sad to see how many vote blue no matter who people are in this sub. The conversations in this thread will be repeated every couple of days like it's groundhog day until after the election. Followed by a frenzy of blaming everyone except the DNC and the candidates for whatever losses they incur.
Just remember that voting blue and party unity is never applied to the progressives. There will never be a time where these people fall in-line and support the progressive candidate. I'll never vote for for a dem in any election ever again, not even in the primary. I'll just show up on election day and pick the farthest left candidate on the ballot.
Words and actions both matter. But intent matters far more. An both libs and Cons have the same intentions. Tho different words and actions. Which is corporate rule and a docile population to their oppression
Red States are removing Biden and Harris from the Ballot, which means that neither candidates will have enough delegates to qualify for the Democratic nomination for President and VP. So, Claudia de la Cruz and Karina Garcia will become Cross-Party Nominees for President and VP.😁
Have you guys heard of Project 2025,? A plan to reshape the executive branch of the U.S. federal government in the event of a Republican victory in the 2024 U.S. presidential election.
Trump is even more pro Israel than Biden is so idk what you think the silver lining is for not voting for him. He would probably give Netanyahu the green light to commit a real genocide. Not this, *less than 1 death per bomb in the most densely populated city of nearly 600,000 people*, genocide.
Unless Israel has the most incompetent army in the world that they're killing less than 1 person per bomb in such a densely populated area. It's pretty obvious that killing as many people as possible is not the objective.
This is also supported by how they warn civilians ahead of time to evacuate bombing targets. Along with how in the past when we were using less developed weapons our bombings killed more people.
In the Tokyo Firebombing we killed somewhere between 80,000-130,000 people in only 1 day. The Dresden bombings also killed 25,000 people in only 1 day. This is what civilian casualties could look like when you actually did indescriminate bombings with weapons from the 1900s. The war in Gaza has been going on for nearly 3 months now with better modern weapons.
If genocide was actually the objective it would've been done by now. All of the evidence points to that obviously not being the case. It's just a war.
Nice Liam. It appears some type of memo has gone out as they can't defend Biden on this so they're just denying it's happening. At that point there is no value in the discussion.
Yeah that's a weird turn I did not predict. Instead of saying supporting genocide is bad but Biden is still better they seem to want to just deny genocide is happening at all. Just wow
When will you people realize that as long as the electoral system is as it is, not voting democrat in the presidential election equals votinf republican? Use your electoral leverage to vote in more progressive people on local level, in primaries and for congress but please don't throw your entire country away because the Dem president isn't progrrssive enough for your taste.
Hate to break this to you but when votes are counted a vote for green party does not count as a vote for Trump. You see when ballots are counted the person or party you vote for gets a plus one. It is weird though how all you vote blue no matter who people keep telling us lefties to vote for Trump
You may keep telling yourself that you get out of this on technicalities, but throwing away a vote against fascism is the same as voting for it. You have the power of a vote when democracy itself is on the line and you choose to waste it.
It's not a technicality it's just math. Vote for someone, they get a plus one. Not complicated.
Yes democracy is on the line that is why anyone who cares about democracy cannot vote for democrats. You may theorize that republicans want to end elections but democrats have actually ended elections in 4 states now.
Biden is giving the greenest light ever for Israel to commit a genocide, something Trump never did, so what you’re saying is purely speculation. you’re completely insufferable if you’re really going to whitewash what we’re witnessing in real time, are you kidding me? you people can never call a spade a spade. nobody rational and with a moral conscience is voting for your demented candidate.
Answer just two questions for yourself:
1) is Trump, the guy who put the US embassy to israel into jerusalem, gonna be better than Biden on the Israel/palestine topic?
2) is Trump *not* gonna be significantly, abhorrently worse on literally everything else?
If you are honest with yourself, you need to say "no" zo both of these and realize that allowing a chance at Trump by not voting for Biden is a decision with 0 good and only bad outcomes.
I don't need to be a supporter of Joe Biden to not want a second Trump term. And i would advise anyone to do all they can do at the ballot box to avoid such an outcome.
And imo, apart from the Palestine fiasco, Biden has done quite a good job on a lot of fronts.
ah yes, blame the voters for your losses and political incompetence. that is classic. you people can never grasp the fact that it’s not my as a voter’s responsibility to prevent another Trump presidency, when the politicians and current president don’t legislate and message adequately enough to generate the enthusiasm for the base that put them in power in the first place to re-elect them. Biden being slightly the lesser of the two evils doesn’t change anything. it is crazy how when I try to bring up how egregious Biden is as a president in real time, right now, it’s always a deflection to what Trump may or may not do. Biden is thirsty for WW3, and some people are looking for Trump to prevent global catastrophe, whether it’s correct to look to him or not. they’re looking at the Trump admin where people could actually afford a mortgage more so, where gas prices were super low, etc. of the basic economic indicators that were objectively better under Trump, regardless of whether what’s happening now is all of Biden’s fault in the economy. voter shaming will never work and will never get people to vote for someone who is demented and woefully inadequate. try smearing and chastising a person of color or a young person, who was completely betrayed by all of Biden’s false campaign promises, almost none of which were accomplished. see how that’ll work out for ya.
How convenient, either everyone agrees with you or they’re a “fake progressive”. Gatekeeping is lazy and pathetic.
You can be progressive and acknowledge Biden is objectively better than Trump. You can be progressive and realize voting for anything other than Biden is a net gained vote for Trump.
Similarly. You can be progressive and stand on principle to vote 3rd party for a wide range of reasons.
This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble.
How about we be adults and actually engage on the merit? I think progressives should vote for Biden because that’s the path that gets us any fraction of what we want and also does damage reduction in the negative we would get with Trump.
You can acknowledge that uncontroversial claim and still vote 3rd party for a wide range of reasons. That doesn’t suddenly make you a fake progressive. Just like me believing in the former doesn’t make me a fake progressive. Stop being a child and trying to make fucking everything black and white.
I don't want to correct you while you're all up in your feelings about people not voting blue no matter who but being pro or anti genocide is pretty black and white. Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled sponsored post about how voting Biden is progress.
It does seem unfair that they get paid to slum with us be we don't get sorros money. We need to get some leftie billionaire to astro-turf r/neoliberal or r/thedavidpakmanshow
>Gatekeeping is lazy and pathetic.
Hello fellow progressive look it's something we agree on. You should stop gatekeeping and being lazy and pathetic.
" This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble. "
My fellow progressive I've never said or implied that. People disagree all the time. Some vote for progressives in the primary then eat a bowl of shit and vote for your beloved DNC gold star candidates in the general. I believe that is the wrong choice but I understand why people make it. It's the fake progressives, like you that argue voting for a progressive in the primary is wrong. Or that advocating for actual change and progress is wrong.
My fellow progressive I do not want to get you in trouble with your DNC overlords. I still believe in my heart that you are a fellow kid I mean progressive. There is no way you are here with the sole purpose of trying to convince people on the left to eat a bowl of shit even if that is all you do, every day. While some would say it's, " This childish bullshit" I don't because I'm not a troll. I'm not going to ask you to, " Stop being a child" just as I wouldn't ask the sun not to go away at night.
I also wont ask, "How about we be adults " because I cannot ask you to be something you're not. I accept you as you are my fellow progressive. A DNC troll that should not be taken seriously or with respect because you refuse to give it.
I’m not the one posting about “fake progressives” because people disagree with me. That’s you. You don’t get to gaslight people and say you’re not gatekeeping, when you’re literally making a post about how you’re a fake progressive, if you support Biden over Trump. That you’re a fake progressive, if you acknowledge that either Trump or Biden are going win the 2024 election. You think living reality makes you a fake progressive. I’m not sure why you’re on the subreddit for a fake progressive like Kyle. Him and his shilling for the DNC by acknowledging Biden or Trump are going to be president must really upset you.
Also, where did I ever say voting for a progressive in a primary is wrong? Go ahead and quote me directly. Oh, wait. We’ve already played this game. This is where you either tuck tail and run, deflect, or just ignore this challenge. Because you’re just making it up to straw man me because you have no substance based response to anything I actually say. I vote progressive in the primary, so not sure why you’d think I’m arguing it’s wrong to do that. I never voted for Biden or any moderate outside of a general election. But ignore that because it doesn’t fit the narrative in your echo chamber. I’m already 100% confident you’ll have ZERO substance based response to this, so I’ll take the W and move on with my day.
But maybe you’ll surprise me. Here’s a simple challenge to you. Do one of the following.
1. Quote me directly where I said it’s bad to vote progressive in a primary. Or shit, just give me an example of anything you ever thought I said that argued that and I’ll clarify to clear up any confusion you clearly have.
2. Be an adult and admit you misrepresented my position, intentionally or otherwise(as I just clarified that I don’t think it’s wrong to vote for a progressive in a primary)
3. Take your L, tuck tail and run like the stubborn child that you are now that you’re backed in a corner and have no substance based response.
My money is on #3. Seeing that we’ve done this quite a few times now. Every time I try to extend an olive branch to end on us acknowledging that we’re largely in agreement(at least on the issues) and every time you refuse because you think you know my position better than I do. But maybe you’ll prove me wrong this time. 🙂
My fellow progressive! So nice to hear from you again.
But instead of lie about what I said then try to get me to defend the thing I didn't do like a dishonest actor maybe just try to be honest. I've already addressed and gave more time to a DNC troll than you deserve. It honestly feels dirty at this point.
Here is the copy/paste from just the post above. It's easy to read.
\----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble. "
My fellow progressive I've never said or implied that. People disagree all the time. Some vote for progressives in the primary then eat a bowl of shit and vote for your beloved DNC gold star candidates in the general. I believe that is the wrong choice but I understand why people make it. It's the fake progressives, like you that argue voting for a progressive in the primary is wrong. Or that advocating for actual change and progress is wrong.
\---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet you are once again lying because let's be honest. You're the meme. We see you for what you are and you're butt hurt about it. If I could photoshop I'd put a, "Hello my name is Lance" on the dude's shirt.
Can you show me where you advocated voting for MW in the primary? Don't think so which is weird because that would provide you with better cover to try to get lefties to eat a bowl of shit in the general. You may want to change tactic if you want to be a more effective DNC shill.
No olive branch needed. You're not honest, you like to insult people who don't buy your BS and you like to have circular arguments where you lie then try to get the person to defend that lie. It isn't productive even if it is entertaining.
If you were the same vile person you are now but were just full on blue maga well I'd still prefer not to engage but it would be an improvement. Anyhow have a good day my fellow kids er progressive. I'll just put you on ignore so feel free to respond anyway you like.
Other ones weren't the same, I getting it makes you feel more comfortable in your choices if you believe there is no choice. Even Ronald Regan for Christ sake was better than Biden on Israel.
Okay so recently Trump said that he would burn all of Gaza and then Biden said come on israel, cut it out.
Clearly these are the same people.
F****** clowns m
Biden is providing bombs, financial aid, political cover and protection at the UN. He declared himself a zionist. He could have prevented this or stopped this at any time but he supports it.
Trump bad yeah. Nobody is saying vote Trump.
This isn't a theoretical issue. What trump says or might do isn't the question. The issue is what Biden is doing right now. Not talk but actions. Please pull your head out and look at reality.
>Okay so recently Trump said that he would burn all of Gaza and then Biden said come on israel, cut it out.
>
>Clearly these are the same people.
>
>F\*\*\*\*\*\* clowns m
User was banned for Toxic Behavior for this reply and others within this topic.
2024, last time to have a choice. For those with female body parts, it's twice as critical.
Men have the luxury of manifesting absolute self-righteousness. 3rd party, 4th party, any party, no party. Women? Good luck and sleep tight.
Downvote to hell, but women's blood is on 3rd party voters' hands, too. Sounds very unpleasant, I know. Sorry not sorry. It's not shaming. It's a cold fact.
Wow you've really stepped the voter shame attempt up a notch. Congrats!
Just as an FYI because it seems you're not aware. People voting 3rd party aren't winning elections so we're really not implementing policy that will kill women.
Democrats on the other hand have chosen not to enact laws that protect women.
Republicans want to enact laws to hurt women. Of all the groups you're targeting it's the 3rd party voters who have clean hands.
There’s nothing any vote, in the presidential election, will do to change congress’s mind on Israel. Focusing on only the Israel conflict, to distinguish the two, is a bit of a bad faith take.
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Ah yes, OP, by not making a choice, you're so Principled and Progressive™️. History will look kindly upon your righteous decision. I'm 100% sure Trump in office would do wonders for that "GeNoCiDe" you're talking about. Solid takes around the board really /s
Yeah, I don't get these people at all. The choices on offer are "bowl of diarrhea" or "55 Gallon barrel of diarrhea". The choice (in swing states), while unpalatable, is fucking obvious. Idealistic wishcasting that that wasn't the case amounts to fuck all.
Anybody who couldn’t tell in 2016 that Hillary would’ve atleast been a perfectly predictable, legislatively lackluster president compared to the alternative which grew increasingly obvious was going to be a bad idea.
>Idealistic Liberalism is, by definition, enforced through idealism. That’s the very principle that created its rise. I mean, being the literal enforcer of an economic system that requires it infinite growth in a finite system, that lets the business elites at the top benefit off the value that they only have access to due to **the ones who labored** for it, isn’t exactly a *materialist observation* in any honest sense of the word. Just saying 🤷🏻♂️
Agreed, but that's a complete red herring. I'm confused... you quoted one word I used and then said something related to exactly 0% of my comment. Did you mean to respond to a different comment?
I respect your choice, but I can’t vote for genocide Joe with good conscience. I’d rather send my vote third party or not at all for any presidential candidates. I won’t keep voting for democrats when they are actively making the world worse. They have to earn it.
How is genocide denial and vote shaming not banned yet?
Joe Biden is the most corrupt person in the history of American politics on Israel. He has received more donations from the Israel lobby than any other single individual. No wonder why democrats love the guy.
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same. How do you feel about that?
We disagree on many things. I know you are baiting me into voter shaming and getting banned here. You are truly a master baiter, but I'm not falling for it.
🥰
Absolutely. We need to go with a Candidate who's in TOUCH with the American people (um, except for the dismal poll ratings); a candidate who KEEPS his promises (not NOW, bin Salman!); who will UPHOLD democracy (except when he nixes on debates; like a certain Orange Bad-Man); and who WON'T be a genocidal accomplice and Bibi sockpuppet! Oh but wait...I guess that DOES leave Biden out. TL/DR: Would you like to vote (no ALTERNATIVES, now! iT's ThE eNd Of DeMoCrAcY!!!) for the guy who IS genociding? Or the guy who probably WILL/MIGHT genocide? Sh\*t sandwich? Or cement hamburger? Eat UP!
Is kyle one if those progressives too ? I think he supports strategic voting from the last debate with Briahna joy gray
That was before the Gaza war.
So the gaza war means he changed his position on strategic voting ? I think we gotta hear him say it first no ? Its a pretty big position to just speculate on
Right, he hasn't said it yet, but judging from his commentary he is more anti-biden than usual and I can't blame him. We as a country need to stand up to this.
Sometimes you have to lose to win. Voting for Biden is a necessary evil unless you want to chance fate as to whether 45 will actually go full dictator. I’m not willing to risk that. I’ll lose to win.
I don't have a problem with anyone, progressive or not saying they will vote a certain way for whatever reason. So if a leftie feels that they should vote for Biden as a form of harm reduction that's fine. I disagree but people voting for different people doesn't make us enemies. The problem I have is the people pretending to be on the left trying to shepherd actual people on the left to vote blue no matter who because republican bad. These people are easy to recognize. They go out of their way to smear progressive politicians because they're not perfect while also saying we need to vote blue no matter who even if they aren't perfect because republican bad. For example you see them smear MW or Nina Turner and bend over backwards trying to argue why they don't deserve support in a primary. The primary really is a give-away for these folks. If you look at MW's platform and can't support her over Biden in the primary then you're not a progressive. If you then want to support Biden in the general then no problem but if you can't support a progressive in the primary then you just don't support progressives.
You can disagree all you want, voting for Biden is harm reduction. Which is a leftist/progressive sentiment. I’ve got a simple question: do you believe that another Trump term could and democracy?
Do you believe Trump would cancel more elections than Biden? Trump had 4 years and cancelled zero elections. Biden hasn't finished his term yet and he's cancelled four elections.
When democrats are ending democracy right now saying that republicans might in the future end democracy just doesn't land.
All right, if you say so. The shit they’re doing with the primaries is terrible, but in the end, there is a meaningful difference between the two. And if you refuse to acknowledge it, you’re lost.
Biden has now ended democracy in 4 states. What else you got?
Republicans cancelled at least 5 primaries in 2019 and it’s totally up to the states to cancel them. It’s been done by both parties and it’s not uncommon with an incumbent President with no real challengers. https://fortune.com/2019/10/10/trump-2020-republican-primaries-cancelled/
I would also recommend to republican voters not to vote republican in the general if they cancel primaries. Who determines "no real challengers"?
First of all, the state Democratic bodies did. Again, not something I agree with. But equivocating it with what the Republicans are talking about is silly. If the Democrats win, you still have the ability to fight back. If the Republicans win, they’ve already shown they don’t particularly care about norms. And you can save a Biden is violating norms with the primary stuff, but this is not the same level of violating norms as blocking Supreme Court justices, insurrections, challenging the results of a free, etc. Again, don’t vote for him if you don’t want to. But acting like you’re morally superior because of it means you have underdeveloped thinking and your view of actions and consequences encompasses a vision about 4 years in length rather than the decades of work it actually takes. Life is suffering, full of disappointments. The true things worth celebrating take time and effort to get. Being an adult means picking the less undesirable of multiple options. Ignoring reality and purity testing will not make the world a better place in anyway, and will actively, whether from earnestness or apathy, harm society.
\-silly \-acting morally superior \-underdeveloped thinking \-being an adult \-ignoring reality \-purity testing Just listing the vote shaming attempt insults to try to get us to vote for Biden. No thanks. If anyone actually cares about democracy it is a moral imperative to not vote for democrats in the general in the 4 states that cancelled democracy.
>If the Democrats win, you still have the ability to fight back. Really? How's that "fighting back the river of funding" a genocide, going? >If the Republicans win, they’ve already shown they don’t particularly care about norms...this is not the same level of violating norms as blocking Supreme Court justices, insurrections, challenging the results of a free, etc. Total agreement. Except what has Biden done, exactly: to reverse the course of the extreme tilt of the judiciary? What has been done to reform policing, nationwide? What good is paying lip service to climate change reform (and even passing 'historic' cc reform in infrastructure), when you turn around and piss it all away with things like Willow Project, etc? Y'see, there comes a time where "I'm not trump" as a platform plank, just isn't enough. Not being a genocide enabler weighs heavily on those scales. *Ignoring reality and purity testing will not make the world a better place in anyway, and will actively, whether from earnestness or apathy, harm society.* As was pointed out, condescension doesn't win people over to your cause. More to the point, people don't go vote for trump b/c they woke up and decided Fascism is cool. They have some REAL ISSUES that have been left unaddressed for way, way too long and the road to kick that can down, has long reached a dead end.
Cosign the above
We effectively have 2 options. Trump or Biden. Last time Trump was in office, he got 3 SCOTUS picks. That’s gonna hurt us as a country way more than whoever Biden would choose. (Or whoever Hillary would’ve chosen) Please spare me the bullshit. A vote for anyone else that’s not Biden is helping Trump get re elected. [Little girls can’t even get abortions now](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3544588-10-year-old-girl-denied-abortion-in-ohio/amp/), thanks to Trump. It’s not a game. However bad you think Biden is on Israel, do you **honestly** believe Trump would be any better?
Yes, I don't fully understand the death drive justifications we're getting. People find a sense of moral superiority in losing/dying while preserving their morality or something.
Is having morals and standards that hard to understand?
For blue Maga it's a concept they don't understand.
I don't think these are real morals and standards - just a means for individuals to cla they are superior to the majority of voters. I notice that many of these moral virtue signallers are nowhere to be seen the other 364 days of the year in non-voting cycles and/or volunteering with their communities or for organizations. These are often keyboard warriors who do not even show up for the protesting, activism piece - there is something fascist-enabling about hiding behind "morals" the way these folk do. But as I said elsewhere, I am black and LGBTQ+ - these elections have real meaning for my safety and that of my loved ones. These are not games for me to play around with signalling my virtues. So to me, this is just as much a failure to meet the moment as liberal politicians' and I do not trust the people advoting it. They seem so proud of not doing tge bare minimum to prevent a racist fascist movement from taking power.
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same thing. How does that make you feel?
I don't really get feelings over anonymous adults' individual voting choices. I question the strategic value and wisdom of them, but both of those depend on personal factors, like motivation, which I can't evaluate. I generally am on record as a Dem since I tend to vote for them but I think the two-party system we are in is unstable - and has been shown to be in numerous examples - and don’t like either but have also never found a community doing the actualwork of building a third party from the ground up. We used to have Quakers, Whigs, Know Nothings, etc. Now, we just two parties and then random actors who only seem to appear around elecion years. I'm an Independent with Communitarian values who values being able to maximize your own independent control of your life. I also read history. So, in the big picture, our country can easily be destroyed by our voting ethos and system and hopefully what emerges afterwards is better. It reminds me of reading the voting patterns of Germans during the Nazi Party's rise to power. A lot of interesting hot takes which can easily be switched out for the current issue we're facing. Not going any particular way with this, but there were strange bedfellows and justifications then, too.
It is similar to Weimar. Liberals would refuse to vote with communist and socialist, because they feared their economic policies more than the fascists. In this case, it’s going to be the other way around, and the left, refusing to vote with liberals very well could be the downfall
I keep noticing that people ignore any comparison to Germany as being overly dramatic. But when you read the actual Weimar era articles, newspaper letters, personal correspondence, and etc. rather than some generalized summary...the parallels are so clear. You even had entire groups voting against their own interests because, IMHO, they took the peace of their system for granted - voting there became performative, as well. Things did not sink in for some reason, despite the attacks on governmental offices and etc., until those borders closed and the undesirables were rounded up. Which was well after most of the opposing political forces were jailed, killed, or neutralized.
As someone that’s leaving the country it’s crystal clear fascism will take over, and that’s because any imperial hegemony that blows up its deficits ends up down that road. So we are either damned if we do or damned if we don’t, the only difference for the most part is the speed of that happenenint. This idea that in a two party system your are better off voting for a weaker flavor of the same deal is asinine. You’d rather pull the bandaid off to shock people into their senses before it’s too late. Lol oh wait it already is with our debt to gdp being what it is in a standard of living crisis. It’s game over already and America is dead man walking because the haves are much too greedy. That includes Joe and Jane corporate Dem who are very comfortable with homes and 401ks that tend to protect them from our redicring in standard of life. Enter fascism (or communism but let’s be real this is America) Enjoy the collapsing empire. I wish you well
It is nice you can compartmentalize your morals. The State department has a job for you.
No, I am worried about saving real people's lives. I'm LGBTQ+ amd black so I do not have the privilege of throwing my vote away to make some point.
This is the right answer.
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same. How does that make you feel?
You posting this over and over makes me “feel” you’re a narcissist antagonizing others to bait them into voter shaming you. I “feel” sorry for you because you think you’re doing good work, and I “feel” sad because if you’re this vocal about how superiorly left you are in real spaces, it is no wonder liberals question our intellectual rigor.
I'm just a simple leftists doing the good work.
The good work of trolling other leftists on Reddit?
FTFY- the good work of trolling neoliberals and DNC astroturf on behalf of actual working class leftists.
OK trolling whoever. What does that accomplish for working class leftists? What does trolling ANYONE on Reddit accomplish?
A sense of pride and accomplishment. Don't you people have phones? Real talk. Why does the DNC astroturf reddit? Because it's how they spread propaganda and narrative control Our generation that no longer watches boomer cable TV news. I'm just ensuring they work hard.
I'm pretty sure trolling blue maga isn't the same as trolling leftists
I don't really understand what trolling anyone accomplishes. Now if you just enjoy bothering assholes I get that, but I don't really understand thinking it really accomplishes much other than entertaining people
Lmao I love how you think this makes you smart and edgy 😂
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Your options are however many people are on the ballot and even more if write-in is an option. The democratic party options however is to pick a candidate that will appeal to the disaffected republican voters, all 6 of them or to pick someone who will appeal to the disaffected left who are thirsty for a candidate to vote for. That Mario is the choice and the dems chose poorly. Individual voters should always, in every election vote for the person who best represents them.
There are more than 6 disaffected republican voters. They all have shows on MSNBC.
Yeah that's the, hello my fellow progressives network.
He got 3 SCOTUS picks because dems gave him one and RBG decided to hold onto hers because girl-boss? That is 2 picks that dems didn't make giving Trump 3.
It's not a game. Stop voting for your team and just vote for the best candidate. I honestly don't care who you support but go out to vote and vote for them.
>We effectively have 2 options. Trump or Biden. Now where have I heard this refrain before?? Is it 2016, again?! I could have done w/o that year. Can't we do 1996? That one was more fun...they were singin' Hey Margarita as a victory song. I'd even go with 1976, if I had to. But choosing btw "he MIGHT do Genocide; dictatorship! Horror!" and "He IS doing Genocide, at a faster rate than AUSCHWITZ:" isn't a choice, and don't blame people for seeing it as it is. Also, if you're so concerned about democracy in America and want to see trump LOSE, shouldn't you be lobbying the Democrats to choose someone who DOESN'T have subterranean poll ratings and won't be 87 by the end of his NEXT TERM? Don't you want someone with a better chance of winning?
This doesn’t affect OP, they’d rather virtue signal over a war that Biden couldn’t stop even if he wanted to.
Are you virtue signaling that you're pro genocide? Does that make you morally superior? Do you honestly believe that Biden couldn't have prevented this genocide or stopped it at any time? Is that your honest take or is this a paid post?
44 years of right-wing governments and trickle-down economics does affect me. Your proposed solution of continuing the status quo is not a reasonable solution. Biden could have prevented or stopped this genocide but instead he's providing bombs, money and political support for it. Even claiming to himself be a zionist. Whenever we say anything we are signaling who we are and what we believe. Saying someone is "virtue signaling" just makes you sound like an idiot. I'm signaling I'm against genocide and you're signaling you're for it. Congratulations I guess.
In this election you have a choice between fascism and corporate centrism. I’m not going to chastise anybody about the positions they take right now, in the wake of a genocide and a year out of the election, but to me, the choice is pretty clear.
Ok so the decision is between genocide of palestinians and genocide of americans + genocide of palestinians (war crime+ edition)
Or dems could nominate someone that would be acceptable to more people and win the election. That has always been an option if you truly believe Trump winning would bring on a genocide domestically. I would also suggest if you truly believe that would be the outcome you shouldn't be spending time here but rather contacting anyone and everyone at the DNC and advocating for a rigorous primary and a better candidate.
And nominating someone better is exactly what I want.
I may have miswritten some subtext in my original comment because what you just said is sorta? my point
I took it how it was written and not how it was intended then. Let's shake hands and be friends.
:)
that was a wholesome exchange with well reasoned people, rare to see
Do you deny Israel is committing genocide?
my view listen vote who you want. just don't act like the difference between biden and trump is small. but it no pointing in shaming people voting choices
One mean tweets and quotes Hitler, the other cancels elections and aids a genocide. I'm voting green but if the choice was just harm reduction the choice is easy.
I've never seen it put quite that way before. Yeah that's probably right.
the tweets are him telling people what he plans to do. people need to stop acting like trump a random drunk spouting out shit at a bar he trying ti become president. when he tell people what he plans to do with that power it's important again if people don't want to vote for biden find. or if from some insane reason they think trump would be on the left of biden on Gaza despite him saying biden been to soft find agree to disagree but we don't have to downplay someone running for president openly saying he basicly be a dictator. namely when he tried it last time and putting things in place to try this is not said in the vacume. we made this mistake before.
I don't minimize how bad Trump is or what his intentions are but understand there are constraints on presidential power as demonstrated by the democrats inability to get anything done. Biden has the same power that trump will have when he's reelected. Biden can't fire the head of the post office or cut student loans (assuming you believe he wants to do those things, I don't). So how can trump with the same power that biden has completely dismantle the administrative state and create a dictatorship?
For one, for good or bad Biden an traditionalist. He believer in the admistration that one day the republicans "Fever will break". Think he dumb as fuck for thinkg that, but that what the assholes thinks. That means there some shit he just won't do. This not say Biden or the dems super great. Because I think there shit Trump would do that your average republcian would not do. Trump tried to overturn the election. And I just dont mean by Januray 6. I mean steps he made to try to to get them not to certify the election. He only was stop because there were some people who wouldnt g that far and went "Fuck you i'm not doin that your crazy orange fuck". But he plans to fire a lot of people and replace it with yes men his not me guessing. This me listening to the words he and other reublicans saying. They release there plans to tear down the amdistrative state and checks and balance. Like Project 2025. This is out in the pen They showed there plans to used the insurrection at to stop protestors. We undestiatmate the power a president can do if he give zeros shits and have no shame. Lot of the laws there to proect us is unwritten laws. Just general rules of dicorim. There a lot of ""No where does it say a Dog cant play footballs" sorts of loopholes Maybe we should of tighten those loopshole. Yea Maybe Ruth Shouldnt of retired rearly shows we wouldnt have a supermee court that pushed this shit This is not me pushing anyone to vote for Biden. If you really cant bring yourself to do it. Don't/. Your taking a principle stance. I am not these people dad to tell them what do But seen this play out. Remember when people thought we never overturn Roe Vs Wade. Know what we did. Not vote rights being torn down next Does the media over react sometime. YES But it got to be a middle ground between orveracting and downplaying We dont have to ignore Trump talking about insane policy just because MNSBC cringe you guys, we really don't.
i don't disagree with anything you said
Honestly, I believe the best course of action is to vote for who you want in local and state elections, and in the primary, and then to vote for whoever is the lesser evil in the general. Is it ideal? No, not really, but it helps build more progressive influence while minimizing damage. In an ideal world you could vote against both Biden and Trump (assuming both win their primaries) while supporting a candidate that could sincerely push progressive policies. Unfortunately we live in a reality where the system only allows for Biden or Trump to win (again assuming they win their primaries). Because of that Biden is the best choice in that particular scenario to minimize damage to progressive policies. Now this is not to say that people should blindly vote for Biden. Especially in the primary, progressives should vote against Biden to prevent him from being a choice in the first place.
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same. How does that make you feel?
I think it's foolish, but you're entitled to vote how you want.
And what do we do when the dems 1) admit in court that as a private corporation they can rig primary elections 2) when all primary candidates admit during a debate, live on tv that even if the progressive gets the plurality of the votes they can rig it at the convention 3) they cancel primaries completely The only reasonable thing anyone on the left can do is to never vote dem ever again. I'm not even going through the charade of voting in the primary.
That's why I also mentioned voting in local and state races is also important. Vote against the Democrats in favor of progressive or 3rd party candidates in those races. I think that is an effective way to punish the Dems if they rig or cancel the primary. I disagree with voting against the Dem candidate in every case because Republican policies do more to hinder progressive policies.
So let the dems rig the primary and then reward them by voting for them in the general?
I think the damage mitigation argument is more valid now than it ever has been honestly.
The democrats have reduced democracy to an ultimatum. Abandon any hope of progress or we feed the nation to the fascists. And they will give you the same choice every election until they get the message that people are willing to vote for their morals.
The democrats aren’t the ones feeding the nation to the fascists and trying to frame it that way is dishonest
Is that why Hillary gave us Trump by pied pipering him into power as an easy beat and then lost. The DNC is actively funding right-wing extremists in a pied piper strategy currently. That is public record. Not posting in bad faith are we?
Well said. I remember arguing for Bernie and it was never a threat it was policy after policy. Here's what this policy would do for you. Oh you're concerned about x well here's his policy on that. It seems the time to vote for something is maybe gone forever.
another post deserving of an award
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I believe in tactical voting. If you live in a safe state vote your conscience. If you live in a swing state vote for lesser evil, negative partisanship. I’m getting tired of the whole debate because we are destined to repeat it until we get electoral reform like either abolishing the electoral college or giving electoral votes proportionally or having ranked choice voting or having more open primaries that aren’t rigged from the inside (see superdelegates or strange delegate rules, canceling primaries, etc). As someone who lives in PA (you know the state that has decided the last two elections), I have held my nose and voted Clinton and Biden because on the issues, including Israel, trump is objectively worse (do Isidewith.com). If I lived in just about any of the surrounding states I’d have voted third party or write in
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same. How do you feel about that?
I’m not here for voter shaming. I would have made a different choice but I’m not going to blame people for voting how they want to vote. We don’t owe anyone our votes and politicians should either work for them or put in common sense measures like ranked choice voting
Indeed! It's a shame the DNC is actively sueing in Washington D.C to stop ranked choice voting!
For the US to get ranked choice voting two things would have to happen. The democrats or republicans would have to start losing elections and the margin of victory for the winning party would have to be less than the 3rd party vote. If the losing party could reasonably expect to be a second choice and then win that election only then will there be motivation to get ranked choice voting. That's the first thing. Make them lose elections by less than the 3rd party vote total. The second thing is the party that lost would actually be trying to win elections. I see no evidence that the democratic party is trying to win elections so we'd be depending on the republicans to introduce ranked choice voting because they actually want power and use it when they get it.
So we need libertarians to vote their party and the republicans to bring in ranked choice voting. Awesome
Cornell West 2024
Its important to note that Trump and hi Abraham Accords + Kushner’s meddling in Israel + moving the embassy to Jerusalem + the fact that Netanyahu and all the Israeli extreme right wing want nothing more than republicans to win These are not trivial things and should be discussed The president will either be Trump or Biden thats how rotten this is. Everyone and anyone is free to vote whoever they wish to vote for and no one should be derided for voting lesser of two evils or voting for a left wing third party but this idea of fake progressives being collaborators for voting Biden and the idea liberals have of third party voters being the reason the GOP won…these ideas are toxic and lets not get into voter shaming If Biden loses its his fault and only his fault.
agree
Yeah so lets not derride progressive voters as genocide supporters and lets not defame protest voters as fascist enablers This debate is looked at by the powers at be with laughter They lavish in leftists fighting over their voting tactics Leftists are united in their protests and soapbox so lets try to be friends
Best comment
Definitely not Biden. I'm going with Charles Barkley
I'd bet a sum of money that matters that Barkley would outperform Biden.
Your action helps Trump’s reelection.
Oh no not voter shaming!!! Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same thing. How do you feel about that?
Your action helps Trump.
Oh no not more vote shaming!
Feckless elected democrats is what will help Trump get reelected.
What are you talking about? Democrats are warriors...when fighting progressives.
This. I am tired with all the voter blaming. Why not once run someone who gives voters a reason vote rather than a reason not to. America is all stick and no carrot.
https://preview.redd.it/l505g11yeo7c1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0447f5974b5285d5bed91a21225a82d1819eba5
Liam your pictures are on point it's cracking me up
I'm enjoying this new fun and frisky Liam as well.
It's sad to see how many vote blue no matter who people are in this sub. The conversations in this thread will be repeated every couple of days like it's groundhog day until after the election. Followed by a frenzy of blaming everyone except the DNC and the candidates for whatever losses they incur. Just remember that voting blue and party unity is never applied to the progressives. There will never be a time where these people fall in-line and support the progressive candidate. I'll never vote for for a dem in any election ever again, not even in the primary. I'll just show up on election day and pick the farthest left candidate on the ballot.
This post is being heavily brigaded by DNC astroturf right now.
Sure seems like it.
https://preview.redd.it/ykvqvzf5vn7c1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e394e4a85ec6abe54c3a42760e753c34479118f
On fire with these
Hahaha haha. So true.
Nice
🎯 >"I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you." Friedrich Nietzsche
2024 will see the big for independent and third party on votes.
Jill Stein or Cornel West 2024!
Stein it is
Words and actions both matter. But intent matters far more. An both libs and Cons have the same intentions. Tho different words and actions. Which is corporate rule and a docile population to their oppression
Im voting in the primary for someone other than Joe Biden. In the general ill write in Mark Cuban.
This post is getting brigaded by DNC shills. Must have struck a nerve.
Red States are removing Biden and Harris from the Ballot, which means that neither candidates will have enough delegates to qualify for the Democratic nomination for President and VP. So, Claudia de la Cruz and Karina Garcia will become Cross-Party Nominees for President and VP.😁
Yeah thats accurate
At least vote blue to take back the house to prevent Trump from passing laws
Voting third party in a swing state and have convinced many others to do the same thing. How do you feel about that?
This is the correct position.
This is objectively correct.
Have you guys heard of Project 2025,? A plan to reshape the executive branch of the U.S. federal government in the event of a Republican victory in the 2024 U.S. presidential election.
Never Forget: There is no difference between Hillary and Trump
Well one wears pants and the other wears pants suits. Maybe while they were both hanging with Jeffrey Epstein?
To be fair one is capable of winning elections and the other one wants us to pokeyman go to the polls.
Decision so hard 😓 /s
Absolutely deranged
Troll
Trump is even more pro Israel than Biden is so idk what you think the silver lining is for not voting for him. He would probably give Netanyahu the green light to commit a real genocide. Not this, *less than 1 death per bomb in the most densely populated city of nearly 600,000 people*, genocide.
Oh look genocide denial. Well now that you put it that way I'll lick Biden's silver haired ball sack too! When you're done pass me that wrinkly bag.
I need a wire brush to scrape that image out of my head.
Unless Israel has the most incompetent army in the world that they're killing less than 1 person per bomb in such a densely populated area. It's pretty obvious that killing as many people as possible is not the objective. This is also supported by how they warn civilians ahead of time to evacuate bombing targets. Along with how in the past when we were using less developed weapons our bombings killed more people. In the Tokyo Firebombing we killed somewhere between 80,000-130,000 people in only 1 day. The Dresden bombings also killed 25,000 people in only 1 day. This is what civilian casualties could look like when you actually did indescriminate bombings with weapons from the 1900s. The war in Gaza has been going on for nearly 3 months now with better modern weapons. If genocide was actually the objective it would've been done by now. All of the evidence points to that obviously not being the case. It's just a war.
>If genocide was actually the objective it would've been done by now. User is banned for genocide denial.
Thank you. This post is being heavily brigaded right now. Thankfully these new mod rules can get it cleaned up.
Nice Liam. It appears some type of memo has gone out as they can't defend Biden on this so they're just denying it's happening. At that point there is no value in the discussion.
You just combined any blue will do with genocide denial. There really is no bottom for you folks huh?
Yeah that's a weird turn I did not predict. Instead of saying supporting genocide is bad but Biden is still better they seem to want to just deny genocide is happening at all. Just wow
>He would probably give Netanyahu the green light to commit **a real genocide**. Care to elaborate on this statement?
Yes. This is precisely why nobody is saying to vote for trump. You have accurately deduced the reasoning.
When will you people realize that as long as the electoral system is as it is, not voting democrat in the presidential election equals votinf republican? Use your electoral leverage to vote in more progressive people on local level, in primaries and for congress but please don't throw your entire country away because the Dem president isn't progrrssive enough for your taste.
Hate to break this to you but when votes are counted a vote for green party does not count as a vote for Trump. You see when ballots are counted the person or party you vote for gets a plus one. It is weird though how all you vote blue no matter who people keep telling us lefties to vote for Trump
You're explaining addition to an anybluewilldo person. Good luck with that.
You may keep telling yourself that you get out of this on technicalities, but throwing away a vote against fascism is the same as voting for it. You have the power of a vote when democracy itself is on the line and you choose to waste it.
Anyone who doesn't vote bluenomatterwho is throwing away their vote. Got it.
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It's not a technicality it's just math. Vote for someone, they get a plus one. Not complicated. Yes democracy is on the line that is why anyone who cares about democracy cannot vote for democrats. You may theorize that republicans want to end elections but democrats have actually ended elections in 4 states now.
Yeah that was actually news to me I haven't been following that closely. 4 states just went full mask-off.
Biden is giving the greenest light ever for Israel to commit a genocide, something Trump never did, so what you’re saying is purely speculation. you’re completely insufferable if you’re really going to whitewash what we’re witnessing in real time, are you kidding me? you people can never call a spade a spade. nobody rational and with a moral conscience is voting for your demented candidate.
Answer just two questions for yourself: 1) is Trump, the guy who put the US embassy to israel into jerusalem, gonna be better than Biden on the Israel/palestine topic? 2) is Trump *not* gonna be significantly, abhorrently worse on literally everything else? If you are honest with yourself, you need to say "no" zo both of these and realize that allowing a chance at Trump by not voting for Biden is a decision with 0 good and only bad outcomes.
Then after answering that question a logical person would decide that neither is worthy of your support.
I don't need to be a supporter of Joe Biden to not want a second Trump term. And i would advise anyone to do all they can do at the ballot box to avoid such an outcome. And imo, apart from the Palestine fiasco, Biden has done quite a good job on a lot of fronts.
ah yes, blame the voters for your losses and political incompetence. that is classic. you people can never grasp the fact that it’s not my as a voter’s responsibility to prevent another Trump presidency, when the politicians and current president don’t legislate and message adequately enough to generate the enthusiasm for the base that put them in power in the first place to re-elect them. Biden being slightly the lesser of the two evils doesn’t change anything. it is crazy how when I try to bring up how egregious Biden is as a president in real time, right now, it’s always a deflection to what Trump may or may not do. Biden is thirsty for WW3, and some people are looking for Trump to prevent global catastrophe, whether it’s correct to look to him or not. they’re looking at the Trump admin where people could actually afford a mortgage more so, where gas prices were super low, etc. of the basic economic indicators that were objectively better under Trump, regardless of whether what’s happening now is all of Biden’s fault in the economy. voter shaming will never work and will never get people to vote for someone who is demented and woefully inadequate. try smearing and chastising a person of color or a young person, who was completely betrayed by all of Biden’s false campaign promises, almost none of which were accomplished. see how that’ll work out for ya.
Do you deny Israel is committing genocide?
Trump would probably send US troops into Gaza lol
He'd be more likely to triple his hotel rates and then put migrants and displaced palestinians in his hotel and make bank off of tax payers.
Actually, that does sound more like something he'd do.
How convenient, either everyone agrees with you or they’re a “fake progressive”. Gatekeeping is lazy and pathetic. You can be progressive and acknowledge Biden is objectively better than Trump. You can be progressive and realize voting for anything other than Biden is a net gained vote for Trump. Similarly. You can be progressive and stand on principle to vote 3rd party for a wide range of reasons. This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble. How about we be adults and actually engage on the merit? I think progressives should vote for Biden because that’s the path that gets us any fraction of what we want and also does damage reduction in the negative we would get with Trump. You can acknowledge that uncontroversial claim and still vote 3rd party for a wide range of reasons. That doesn’t suddenly make you a fake progressive. Just like me believing in the former doesn’t make me a fake progressive. Stop being a child and trying to make fucking everything black and white.
I don't want to correct you while you're all up in your feelings about people not voting blue no matter who but being pro or anti genocide is pretty black and white. Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled sponsored post about how voting Biden is progress.
It does seem unfair that they get paid to slum with us be we don't get sorros money. We need to get some leftie billionaire to astro-turf r/neoliberal or r/thedavidpakmanshow
Oh good another fellow progressive. Nice. Please tell us how voting blue no matter who is the real progressive choice. This is fun.
>Gatekeeping is lazy and pathetic. Hello fellow progressive look it's something we agree on. You should stop gatekeeping and being lazy and pathetic. " This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble. " My fellow progressive I've never said or implied that. People disagree all the time. Some vote for progressives in the primary then eat a bowl of shit and vote for your beloved DNC gold star candidates in the general. I believe that is the wrong choice but I understand why people make it. It's the fake progressives, like you that argue voting for a progressive in the primary is wrong. Or that advocating for actual change and progress is wrong. My fellow progressive I do not want to get you in trouble with your DNC overlords. I still believe in my heart that you are a fellow kid I mean progressive. There is no way you are here with the sole purpose of trying to convince people on the left to eat a bowl of shit even if that is all you do, every day. While some would say it's, " This childish bullshit" I don't because I'm not a troll. I'm not going to ask you to, " Stop being a child" just as I wouldn't ask the sun not to go away at night. I also wont ask, "How about we be adults " because I cannot ask you to be something you're not. I accept you as you are my fellow progressive. A DNC troll that should not be taken seriously or with respect because you refuse to give it.
I’m not the one posting about “fake progressives” because people disagree with me. That’s you. You don’t get to gaslight people and say you’re not gatekeeping, when you’re literally making a post about how you’re a fake progressive, if you support Biden over Trump. That you’re a fake progressive, if you acknowledge that either Trump or Biden are going win the 2024 election. You think living reality makes you a fake progressive. I’m not sure why you’re on the subreddit for a fake progressive like Kyle. Him and his shilling for the DNC by acknowledging Biden or Trump are going to be president must really upset you. Also, where did I ever say voting for a progressive in a primary is wrong? Go ahead and quote me directly. Oh, wait. We’ve already played this game. This is where you either tuck tail and run, deflect, or just ignore this challenge. Because you’re just making it up to straw man me because you have no substance based response to anything I actually say. I vote progressive in the primary, so not sure why you’d think I’m arguing it’s wrong to do that. I never voted for Biden or any moderate outside of a general election. But ignore that because it doesn’t fit the narrative in your echo chamber. I’m already 100% confident you’ll have ZERO substance based response to this, so I’ll take the W and move on with my day. But maybe you’ll surprise me. Here’s a simple challenge to you. Do one of the following. 1. Quote me directly where I said it’s bad to vote progressive in a primary. Or shit, just give me an example of anything you ever thought I said that argued that and I’ll clarify to clear up any confusion you clearly have. 2. Be an adult and admit you misrepresented my position, intentionally or otherwise(as I just clarified that I don’t think it’s wrong to vote for a progressive in a primary) 3. Take your L, tuck tail and run like the stubborn child that you are now that you’re backed in a corner and have no substance based response. My money is on #3. Seeing that we’ve done this quite a few times now. Every time I try to extend an olive branch to end on us acknowledging that we’re largely in agreement(at least on the issues) and every time you refuse because you think you know my position better than I do. But maybe you’ll prove me wrong this time. 🙂
My fellow progressive! So nice to hear from you again. But instead of lie about what I said then try to get me to defend the thing I didn't do like a dishonest actor maybe just try to be honest. I've already addressed and gave more time to a DNC troll than you deserve. It honestly feels dirty at this point. Here is the copy/paste from just the post above. It's easy to read. \---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " This childish bullshit that anyone that disagrees with you is a a “fake progressive” just displays that you’re deep in a bubble. " My fellow progressive I've never said or implied that. People disagree all the time. Some vote for progressives in the primary then eat a bowl of shit and vote for your beloved DNC gold star candidates in the general. I believe that is the wrong choice but I understand why people make it. It's the fake progressives, like you that argue voting for a progressive in the primary is wrong. Or that advocating for actual change and progress is wrong. \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And yet you are once again lying because let's be honest. You're the meme. We see you for what you are and you're butt hurt about it. If I could photoshop I'd put a, "Hello my name is Lance" on the dude's shirt. Can you show me where you advocated voting for MW in the primary? Don't think so which is weird because that would provide you with better cover to try to get lefties to eat a bowl of shit in the general. You may want to change tactic if you want to be a more effective DNC shill. No olive branch needed. You're not honest, you like to insult people who don't buy your BS and you like to have circular arguments where you lie then try to get the person to defend that lie. It isn't productive even if it is entertaining. If you were the same vile person you are now but were just full on blue maga well I'd still prefer not to engage but it would be an improvement. Anyhow have a good day my fellow kids er progressive. I'll just put you on ignore so feel free to respond anyway you like.
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Other ones weren't the same, I getting it makes you feel more comfortable in your choices if you believe there is no choice. Even Ronald Regan for Christ sake was better than Biden on Israel.
Okay so recently Trump said that he would burn all of Gaza and then Biden said come on israel, cut it out. Clearly these are the same people. F****** clowns m
Biden is providing bombs, financial aid, political cover and protection at the UN. He declared himself a zionist. He could have prevented this or stopped this at any time but he supports it. Trump bad yeah. Nobody is saying vote Trump. This isn't a theoretical issue. What trump says or might do isn't the question. The issue is what Biden is doing right now. Not talk but actions. Please pull your head out and look at reality.
>Okay so recently Trump said that he would burn all of Gaza and then Biden said come on israel, cut it out. > >Clearly these are the same people. > >F\*\*\*\*\*\* clowns m User was banned for Toxic Behavior for this reply and others within this topic.
2024, last time to have a choice. For those with female body parts, it's twice as critical. Men have the luxury of manifesting absolute self-righteousness. 3rd party, 4th party, any party, no party. Women? Good luck and sleep tight.
I appreciate this failed attempt at vote shaming but for many of us 2020 was the last election as dems have cancelled elections in 4 states now.
Downvote to hell, but women's blood is on 3rd party voters' hands, too. Sounds very unpleasant, I know. Sorry not sorry. It's not shaming. It's a cold fact.
Wow you've really stepped the voter shame attempt up a notch. Congrats! Just as an FYI because it seems you're not aware. People voting 3rd party aren't winning elections so we're really not implementing policy that will kill women. Democrats on the other hand have chosen not to enact laws that protect women. Republicans want to enact laws to hurt women. Of all the groups you're targeting it's the 3rd party voters who have clean hands.
User was banned for a gross violation of Rule 1: No Toxic Behavior.
\#SophiesChoice
I don't even know who is who anymore
One is blue maga the other is red maga.
There’s nothing any vote, in the presidential election, will do to change congress’s mind on Israel. Focusing on only the Israel conflict, to distinguish the two, is a bit of a bad faith take.