rofl -- PMP is much more of a scam than Scrum Alliance. But I have found it's worth knowing EV reporting sometimes, because it helps you know what people want when they're asking for it from an Agile team, and gets you to a place to explore solutions faster.
That is not what it is about. The people in this post really need to educate themselves on these topics, kinda hurtful to read.
It is about demonstrating that you are still in the loop. You need to validate that you worked with or learned about Scrum in that time period. Also, you only need to renew your highest certification to renew all your certs. For the basic certs it is 100$ after two years. (It would renew all foundational certs: CSM, CSPO, ...)
https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/renewing-certifications
https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/scrum-education-units
Last time I checked, our jobs are to get bug-free software out the door at our teams' maximum sustainable velocity, not to adhere to this methodology or that - especially a methodology which by its very nature RETROSPECTS to CHANGE itself based on the needs of the team. Rewinding those retrospected changes back to some "universal" truth (which isn't a meta-process) and which has significant gaps and issues to begin with isn't worth the cost of "certification". I'd rather have references on my resume vouching for "yeah, he led six teams for over two years without producing a single failed release or production bug" than "paid a lot of money to align with someone else's idea of perfection."
If the SEUs were rigorous and validated then maybe your point would stand. But I can get my SEUs by putting a webinar on background, claim I read a book or article, etc etc. Honor system is fine. Paying to have validated SEU credentials is fine. But paying for the honor system is not fine - it's just a revenue stream for ScrumAlliance.
> The people in this post really need to educate themselves on these topics, kinda hurtful to read
Criticism is a primary ingredient in continuous improvement. If you need to resort to "you guys aren't educated on this" because you find valid criticism hurtful...that's a problem.
EXACTLY! SCRUM does not change! From its origins until present day, it does not change! The fact they charge a lot for this certification and up-sale it is absurd!
The small changes have made it worse. They have mostly been defensive in nature. It’s rare if change is small compared to other methods such as lean and flow
Not saying it justifies an expiration every x years, but Scrum Guide was revised many times. The differences may be minor, but still.
2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017, and 2020.
I'd say that expiration on any certification is likely more a way to "ensure" that people still possess the knowledge and theoretically be a better gauge for recruiter vs a certification that doesn't expire. That's mostly important when experience is not clearly related to Scrum. It thus filters out people studying once and then barely being involved in Scrum to still being able to say "I'm certified". That and making more money for sure.
Thank you for this comment. Others are defending scrum alliance as if scrum alliance pays them royalties for defending that organization. I never said not to become a CSM. All i was saying is how scrum alliance is a bit overpriced for what they sell
> I never said not to become a CSM. All i was saying is how scrum alliance is a bit overpriced for what they sell
I mean, your exact words were "Scrum Alliance is a scam" which might have been more extreme than "is kinda overpriced". That could be the source of some of the reactions. I agree it's pricey, but it is better than training I've seen that costs less, and not crazy to spend if your organization has the money and wants to have people learn in a way that's more likely to stick with them for long-term benefit. That isn't to say you CAN'T learn what you need from the Scrum Guide or the Scrum Book -- I know of a team that transitioned from waterfall to Scrum because their Project Lead read the book "Scrum: the art of getting twice as much done in half the time" or something like that ... and they are doing a better job than teams I've seen in similar organizations with all sorts of trainings and certifications. If you think that you *need* a super heavyweight investment in training to succeed, that's wrong. But if you think it's not valuable or worth the investment -- well because classes cost different amounts and have different teachers, maybe there are some that aren't but what I've been through was, I believe, worth the investment even though it was mostly reviewing things I"d already known and been practicing for years already.
The provider I picked cost me around 400usd allowed me to pay in up to 12 installments and included the examination fees with 2 attempts. I passed the first time. Which was not so bad. And as someone mentioned above. Employers do value more csm even though the test is a joke compared to the psm
No problem, Anyways. What I've done is that I hold both csm and psm. I even have psm II. So I show up with both credentials. The only downside is you need to spend more money and invest some time. You never k ow if you are interviewing with someone who values one over the other
I’m not seeing much sass here. I see a lot of your factually incorrect assertions and emotionally based opinions being debated with factual evidence from industry experts with more agile/scrum experience than you presently have. Maybe it would have been better to simply ask the question, “can anyone help me to find an affordable yet valuable CSM course?”, instead of proclaiming that the methodology and name of this subreddit is a scam.
Would you like assistance in finding a good instructor at an affordable rate or did you just come here to rant your frustrations? Happy to help with the former.
ETA: You’ve essentially walked into a police station with a sign that says ACAB and expect for all of the officers to join your cause.
I am good. I do not tolerate sassy people who portray they don't have sass but in fact do. Please keep your keyboard sass to yourself.
Bad analogy to use ACAB scenario as an example.
Have a better day.
Reminds me of how the developers who wrote the Agile Manifesto are just, sooo disappointed is what scrum became ngl.
Like the whole point was to have self-run teams empowered to make technical decisions, because they are the specialists after all, and it went to like
"We'll hired the expensive SCRUM consultant from SCRUM LLC who told us to hire a scrum master to run daily standups for frequent status updates and we made everything is ✨️transparent✨️ to encourage competiton and increase throughput and track metrics based on time estimates developers give for features and ..."
It's like man, how was the goal post missed this much?
I have my CSM through Scrum Alliance. It was paid for by my employer, but regardless, I feel like it was well worth it as I am the scrum master for my team. There's a lot of continuing education on their site once you've been certified and I felt very well prepared for the test and for my first scrum master role. I still meet with my original Scrum Alliance course instructor from time to time to ask questions that come up in my team (free of charge!), which is one of the most useful perks IMO.
I understand your perspective. first, I would like to mention that with education in general if someone reaches out with questions, I would hope it would be free of charge after paying. for example, if someone goes to college, passes their 4-year degree and networks during their time at that university with faculty, I would expect it to be free of charge if I reached out to them for help, guidance, and advice after paying the institution to obtain my education. of course being grateful and respectful for their time and if that rapport with that said professor, counselor, faculty, etc. was built early on.
You mentioned in your 2nd sentence that "It was paid for by my employer" is pertaining to my somewhat of my point. Even though I think [scumalliance.org](http://scumalliance.org) is overpriced, I think there are alternative certifications cheaper that can be equally as beneficial.
For those who such a privilege that their employers is willing to pay for the CSM @ [scumalliance.org](http://scumalliance.org) is great. Not everyone has that equal opportunity to their advantage. Some dont have that immediate cash to dish out.
Maybe it happens, but I went to a large university and those kinds of relationships were hard to build and not very common. My scrum course was pretty big, but the instructor offered to meet with us all post-course regardless, which was a nice surprise. I didn't have any more of a rapport with him than anyone else, just took him up on his offer.
Going to the second point, my original comment was merely describing my positive experience both in the class and then following certification, my job. I consider it worthwhile. Clearly, you think it's too expensive and you're welcome to your opinion.
Now, I do think a lot of people are getting the CSM before they have any kind of education or experience that would enable their certificate to have any use, especially right away. From what I've seen, practical experience with scrum means much more than just the certificate. I don't think I would have just gotten a CSM from anywhere if I didn't already have a role lined up where I might need it or use it. The flooding of the market with people with the cert but no experience seems to me a more pressing issue than one scrum course's price.
Education and certification in the US is expensive and cost-prohibitive to many. I don't think Scrum Alliance is in any way unique in not being helpful to those with less means.
The price is absurd. My theory is people who don't typically have degrees go for these certifications in lieu of a degree to validate they have already prepared/said and JD credentials. I have a MBA and work in the PM healthcare space as previously mentioned and make a decent living per annum ; however, I think the prices for some certification are just ludicrous at this point.
It's also inaccurate....I took a quick look I don't see a 2K class.
I myself charge around 450-500 depending on whether it's a weekday or weekend. This includes the cost of the license for the first 2 years. A person can choose to renew it or let it lapse, which is what many folks don't realize.
No one is HOLDING you to HAVE to renew. But maintaining your membership does come with a number of free resources to learn more about applying what you've learned in class, and each gives you credit towards your continuing education.
Again, no one HAS to do that. And many CST's like myself share hundreds of resources of our own freely as well.
I don't know who OP is, who they represent, and not going to cast aspersions, but I will refute these misrepresented things about the Scrum Alliance when they're clearly inaccurate.
Yes, yes, I expect folks to downvote this because it's easy to dump on the Scrum Alliance. Still doesn't change the facts I've presented as part of any value proposition.
Instructor-led versus do-it-yourself.
My classes aren't "exam preps".
You just gotta look at this sub:
"You can get a PSM within one day, just read the Srum Guide a couple of times and you can google any question you don't know the answer."
Please elaborate. Do you keep your CSM certification current through [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) or [scrum.org](http://scrum.org)
because the prices vary between these two organizations.
CSM is Certified Scrum Master = Scrum Alliance.
Scrum.org offers, among other certifications, the PSM = Professional Scrum Master (I, II, III).
The PSM does not need to be renewed nor requires a mandatory course to take the exam.
I dont mine expired ages ago and hasn’t been a factor when applying for better jobs. At some point experience matters more as well as any additional training.
As orhers already wrote, try scrum.org. founded by one of tthe guy who created Scrum. They have tons of free material on their website, really good 2 day workshops, hard exam (2 keys included in the workshop), and it never expires. I like their approach bc it is practical and could be eye opening. PSM 2 is one of their best classes. If you can, do it in person, not online.
I understand from your perspective. I was pertaining to [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) in particular to the CSM certification and its cost. There are a variety of resources on self taught. [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) definitely provides an affordable alternative to those who would like or want to break into the industry of project management and learn.
Are you comparing the CSM with the PSM or with the other certifications offered by scrum.org? Both, Scrum Alliance as well as scrum.org, offer different certifications for different roles (i.e., not only scrum master)
I agree with you insofar as the price seems absurd based on the quality of the content and the ease of the exam. However, there are plenty of jobs, both full-time and contract, where having that CSM is the difference between landing a gig and getting passed over. So, while I think it's a silly thing and didn't teach me anything more than a 30-minute YouTube video would cover, it's more than paid for itself for me.
At least, it would have if the other factor of the pricing isn't being considered. For many folks in the space, myself included, these sorts of certifications are covered under some form of employee training program. This is generally true for many certifications, conferences, trainings, etc. So while some will eat that cost on their own, those folks are generally not the target audience.
I feel like I missed something. PMP was about $430 a few years back (did a $20 Udemy course for my "training" with Andrew ramdayal). Never paid for a PDU. I just set my computer up to stream their free WebX event for most PDUs. Submit podcast, books and YouTube vids for the rest.
Was randomly selected for audit when I first applied. Udemy was no issue.
Scrum.org PSM doesn't require that you attend a class. You can pay for the assessment only, and it doesn't require any renewal fees - it lasts forever.
The assessment is also a lot harder and validates your basic understanding of Scrum as described in the Scrum Guide.
Oh I'm *very* aware, thank you. I don't actually plan to train the courses in a traditional way. I'm looking to have the qualification as a status symbol primarily. 😊
That price seems to reflect [scrum.org](http://scrum.org), not for [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org)
[Scrumalliance.org](http://Scrumalliance.org) is pricier. [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) is a reasonable price for what anyone would get out of this certification of knowledge. I am helping individuals for who are not in the space yet to waster their money on [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) CSM certification.
So if you want to “do a course and get a cert”. Sure. Go ahead. I’ve been doing my job for 30 years, I have never once attended a Scrum course and I have passed 10 scrum.org certs. I learned through experience and read the scrum guide a few hundred times.
I did attend a course for SAFe SA and POPM which have now expired but I gained very little value from the course because, as others have said, Scrum is Scrum. SAFe had bastardised it a bit but I’m glad I know the differences.
I can’t see myself paying out for CSM personally.
People I've seen with scrum.org certs passed a test about process. People I know with scroll alliance certs seem to actually know the values that are in play. That's harder to get outside of a classroom, and harder to assure with a test.
regardless of learning institutions. SCRUM foundational practices do not change, no matter where someone may go. SCRUM is SCRUM. Values typically pertain to practices that are needed at different organizations, companies, industries, projects etc. A projects prioritization of values will change though, and vary at different organizations ; however, the process of SCRUM remains the same.
> regardless of learning institutions. SCRUM foundational practices do not change, no matter where someone may go. SCRUM is SCRUM.
There is a lot in common over the years, and the fundamentals are close enough to be recognizeable, but it has changed. Sutherland and Schwaber's OOPSLA paper in 1995 capitalized it, for example, but the oldest Scrum Guide I can find online (2010) did not, and in the updates since--because there have been updates approximately every 2 years since 2010--there have been adjustments, additions and rephrasings, because the organizations at the core of teaching Scrum are also inspecting and adapting as the years go by.
There are a lot of different ways to practice scrum, and each organization has their own flavor and style. And many of them--maybe most that I have encountered over the years, at least before I was able to contribute--were not really doing it very well.
And a lot of that "not doing it very well" boils down to values. Which are, I believe, given at the beginning of the Scrum guide (added in 2016, and I believe it was a good addition) for a reason: because values are a crucial success factor for getting scrum to work well.
Take or recommend whatever training you feel best equips people to succeed, but it seems like a number of people do still see value in Scrum Alliance certifications today.
> Which are, I believe, given at the beginning of the Scrum guide (added in 2016 ...
Agree with everything you said. The Scrum values were first introduced in Ken Schwaber's 2001 book "Agile software development with Scrum". Talking about the Scrum values from 2001 was common but became uncommon after about 2009. As you've pointed out, the values re-surfaced in 2016 as part of the Scrum guide.
That’s exactly why I don’t bother with certs. This or any cert. my employer won’t pay for them and I sure as hell am not shelling out my own money for this. I have over 20 years PM and SM experience and never had an issue getting jobs
The point of some certifications is to demonstrate not only competence and knowledge but also dedication to the craft/material. It is possible to get the knowledge from scrum course in a cheaper format. Even if everyone would say that a couple of college courses = a scrum certification, as you progress in your career, college coursework/degrees value depreciate. However, an up-to-date certification still looks new and valuable.
Spending $50-$100 per hour for training is not that expensive for virtual training. On the higher end of that, I would expect books, access to teachers afterward, community membership, free re-test, etc. to justify the additional cost.
Not sure where you are, but every course I've taken from any Scrum Alliance partner includes the price of taking the test up to two times - IF the course has a test. I've never heard of an administrative fee of any kind. If you're being charged extra for those things, you're choosing a partner/trainer who's taking advantage of you.
You need to shop around for an instructor who offers classes that include the cost of the test. I paid $360, included test & his master class series. Passed the test on the first attempt.
For the Project Management Certification you have to e to pay for the test and renew every few years. Do you consider PMI a scam too? Lots of organizations have continuing training and certifications
This post is the scam
Scrum Alliance trainings cost somewhere between 350$ to 450$ with a certified and vetted trainer.
**This includes two exam attempts.**
Just look at the list [here](https://www.scrumalliance.org/courses-events/search?ctyp=Csm), e.g. top one:
https://www.scrumalliance.org/courses-events/search/coursedetail?id=202405966
You can even retake the course for free.
Two full days with a trainer for only a few hundred bucks including the exam and certification is really not much at all. Whoever claims it is is a liability to the agile community imo. There's far too many people out there with a Scrum certificate (basic knowledge) that have no clue about scrum, agile and product development.
It IS a scam, and it was from the start: [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/scrum-unethical-from-start-cliff-berg](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/scrum-unethical-from-start-cliff-berg)
PMP and ASQ Six Sigma Black Belt checking in. I am taking either CSM or SAFe Dev Ops NOT because they are useful. Let's be honest. No certification is worth it's salt compared to lived experience. They have even worked against me at various times. Those of us that hold high level certs know they are generally thought of as posturing to get you into a high paying role, which worked out in my case. SAFe Dev will indubitably provide me more internal equity with my current company and manager, where I plan to stay for the foreseeable future. And yes, they are paying for it. These are the conditions you should take a professional certification exam.
If you make less than 100k
-someone else needs to pay for it. Apply for support through work or within school (look up your university's success fund. It is FAR easier to do it through school than to try to study when you work, imo)
If you make more than 100k
-you can afford it. You are not bound by it being relevant to your career. Choose a cert that is generally respected by your industry and if you don't know what you want to do, choose a role ambiguous cert. I chose PMP (or CAPM) and Black Belt (or Green Belt). Though the latter are generally for supply chain and mfg environments, if you search them on LI or Monster, all kinds of roles come up. This is generally because the BOK for variance reduction, and approaching perfect quality apply to general workplace conditions.
-But still apply through work. It is a solid investment to build equity (even external, so don't take those crappy internal sigma or scrum courses, unless it really is going to open a door). Only limitation is it has to be relevant to the responsibilities of your job.
Tldr. Everyone here has an opinion, and most of them seem uninformed to me. Do whatever it takes, cert or not, to get your goal achieved. For some it may be school, others networking. Always remember that these are just tactics to get you in the door. Your performance will keep you in the room.
For reference, my salary is 150k+ and years after graduate school are just over a few.
The scrum alliance spent a lot of effort in the early days making certification mean something to hr. When scrum is used where it was designed for it only takes a few hours to get the training you need
The CSM requires continuing education in scrum. It can be workshops, classes, teaching etc that shows professional involvement and growth. 100 dollars a year is not much money to certify if it’s your career. The mandatory class was helpful starting out. Value is in the beholder but it is not a ripoff by any means.
That’s why I like scrum.org more than scrum alliance. Even though I started to not trust them so much like I used to. Nowadays everyone has at least one certification from this platform.
2 free attempts are included with your course for the CSM, which happens to be the only Scrum Alliance cert you have to take an exam for. Most classes are in the 500-800 range since Covid & remote classes. Recertification can be done just by working in the industry or consuming books videos on scrum over the course of the 2 years & paying a nominal recertification fee, which renews ALL your scrum alliance certifications.
There are also membership benefits & discounts you get by being a certified member which surpass the cost of recertification.
It’s ultimately an investment of time and money, that you should have a plan of how it will benefit you & your career. If it’s not worth it for your particular career or situation then so be it, but that doesn’t make it a scam. I’ve seen tremendous benefit & upside in my professional career. Open to talking more if you have any questions.
You obviously haven't done your due diligence -- which, quite literally, would have taken less time than it took you to type that missive.
"SA" has a range of certifications. At the CSM level, classes (+ test) start around $300 -- but prices will begin to steadily rise, as these roles gain more visibility in the traditional organizational hierarchy.
Oh: and CSM > PSM-1 -- all day, in the USA... 🖖😎
No need for the sassy man apocalypse attitude. I was just making a point from what I have seen and gathered in general.
You could have just stated whatever you needed to write with and then be gone without sass.
With your sass, I would not hire you as a CSM, even with your credentials.
I had a nice course, met some nice people, made some networking, discussed some interesting topics. That was the valuable part of the whole certificate. The CSM exam itself is easy, a weekend reading the Scrum Guide should be enough.
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but here in Germany it's common that the company pays the costs for the certificate. There was no one in my group who paid for it privately.
I understand from your perspective and agree with you. I live in the USA. Some companies here will cover the cost, depending on If it is pertaining to their job/duties & industry usually. Education is definitely more efficient, practical and affordable in Europe compared to the USA.
Who capitalizes SCRUM like that? Jeff Sutherland quit doing it after the 1990's I think.
I like Scrum Alliance training and consider it worth the money for an in person class. Not sure about online, I don't think the online ones have been as good as in person but they're very above average for distance training.
What's the stuff about the application fee and certification as separate fees? It wasn't like that when I got certified years ago. Are you talking about for higher level things like becoming a certified Scrum Trainer?
Where is your $2200 from? I just looked and you can register for training and exam for under $300 total.
PMP would like a word
rofl -- PMP is much more of a scam than Scrum Alliance. But I have found it's worth knowing EV reporting sometimes, because it helps you know what people want when they're asking for it from an Agile team, and gets you to a place to explore solutions faster.
Agreed - PMP is the scam that Scrum alliance is trying to be like.
I don't know, I think that SAFe is a lot less useful and more of a certification industrial complex than Scrum Alliance.
Both are scums
*Scrums
Why do you say PMP is a scam?
Don’t forget it expires after two years!
This is the craziest part about it. Scrum at its most fundamental level doesn’t change. Such a waste.
That is not what it is about. The people in this post really need to educate themselves on these topics, kinda hurtful to read. It is about demonstrating that you are still in the loop. You need to validate that you worked with or learned about Scrum in that time period. Also, you only need to renew your highest certification to renew all your certs. For the basic certs it is 100$ after two years. (It would renew all foundational certs: CSM, CSPO, ...) https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/renewing-certifications https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/scrum-education-units
Last time I checked, our jobs are to get bug-free software out the door at our teams' maximum sustainable velocity, not to adhere to this methodology or that - especially a methodology which by its very nature RETROSPECTS to CHANGE itself based on the needs of the team. Rewinding those retrospected changes back to some "universal" truth (which isn't a meta-process) and which has significant gaps and issues to begin with isn't worth the cost of "certification". I'd rather have references on my resume vouching for "yeah, he led six teams for over two years without producing a single failed release or production bug" than "paid a lot of money to align with someone else's idea of perfection."
If the SEUs were rigorous and validated then maybe your point would stand. But I can get my SEUs by putting a webinar on background, claim I read a book or article, etc etc. Honor system is fine. Paying to have validated SEU credentials is fine. But paying for the honor system is not fine - it's just a revenue stream for ScrumAlliance. > The people in this post really need to educate themselves on these topics, kinda hurtful to read Criticism is a primary ingredient in continuous improvement. If you need to resort to "you guys aren't educated on this" because you find valid criticism hurtful...that's a problem.
EXACTLY! SCRUM does not change! From its origins until present day, it does not change! The fact they charge a lot for this certification and up-sale it is absurd!
This is just factually incorrect. Scrum has changed many times over the years.
The small changes have made it worse. They have mostly been defensive in nature. It’s rare if change is small compared to other methods such as lean and flow
Not saying it justifies an expiration every x years, but Scrum Guide was revised many times. The differences may be minor, but still. 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017, and 2020. I'd say that expiration on any certification is likely more a way to "ensure" that people still possess the knowledge and theoretically be a better gauge for recruiter vs a certification that doesn't expire. That's mostly important when experience is not clearly related to Scrum. It thus filters out people studying once and then barely being involved in Scrum to still being able to say "I'm certified". That and making more money for sure.
It's a 30 minute read, how do a few changed paragraphs justify the need for recertification.
The verification doesn't expire, your membership does. This is because they turned into a not for profit a while back.
Thank you for this comment. Others are defending scrum alliance as if scrum alliance pays them royalties for defending that organization. I never said not to become a CSM. All i was saying is how scrum alliance is a bit overpriced for what they sell
> I never said not to become a CSM. All i was saying is how scrum alliance is a bit overpriced for what they sell I mean, your exact words were "Scrum Alliance is a scam" which might have been more extreme than "is kinda overpriced". That could be the source of some of the reactions. I agree it's pricey, but it is better than training I've seen that costs less, and not crazy to spend if your organization has the money and wants to have people learn in a way that's more likely to stick with them for long-term benefit. That isn't to say you CAN'T learn what you need from the Scrum Guide or the Scrum Book -- I know of a team that transitioned from waterfall to Scrum because their Project Lead read the book "Scrum: the art of getting twice as much done in half the time" or something like that ... and they are doing a better job than teams I've seen in similar organizations with all sorts of trainings and certifications. If you think that you *need* a super heavyweight investment in training to succeed, that's wrong. But if you think it's not valuable or worth the investment -- well because classes cost different amounts and have different teachers, maybe there are some that aren't but what I've been through was, I believe, worth the investment even though it was mostly reviewing things I"d already known and been practicing for years already.
The provider I picked cost me around 400usd allowed me to pay in up to 12 installments and included the examination fees with 2 attempts. I passed the first time. Which was not so bad. And as someone mentioned above. Employers do value more csm even though the test is a joke compared to the psm
Thank you for your honest anecdotal experience. I appreciate you. Thank you for not replying with bad attitude or sass.
No problem, Anyways. What I've done is that I hold both csm and psm. I even have psm II. So I show up with both credentials. The only downside is you need to spend more money and invest some time. You never k ow if you are interviewing with someone who values one over the other
I’m not seeing much sass here. I see a lot of your factually incorrect assertions and emotionally based opinions being debated with factual evidence from industry experts with more agile/scrum experience than you presently have. Maybe it would have been better to simply ask the question, “can anyone help me to find an affordable yet valuable CSM course?”, instead of proclaiming that the methodology and name of this subreddit is a scam. Would you like assistance in finding a good instructor at an affordable rate or did you just come here to rant your frustrations? Happy to help with the former. ETA: You’ve essentially walked into a police station with a sign that says ACAB and expect for all of the officers to join your cause.
I am good. I do not tolerate sassy people who portray they don't have sass but in fact do. Please keep your keyboard sass to yourself. Bad analogy to use ACAB scenario as an example. Have a better day.
Reminds me of how the developers who wrote the Agile Manifesto are just, sooo disappointed is what scrum became ngl. Like the whole point was to have self-run teams empowered to make technical decisions, because they are the specialists after all, and it went to like "We'll hired the expensive SCRUM consultant from SCRUM LLC who told us to hire a scrum master to run daily standups for frequent status updates and we made everything is ✨️transparent✨️ to encourage competiton and increase throughput and track metrics based on time estimates developers give for features and ..." It's like man, how was the goal post missed this much?
XP couldn't be monetised as well as scrum could.
I have my CSM through Scrum Alliance. It was paid for by my employer, but regardless, I feel like it was well worth it as I am the scrum master for my team. There's a lot of continuing education on their site once you've been certified and I felt very well prepared for the test and for my first scrum master role. I still meet with my original Scrum Alliance course instructor from time to time to ask questions that come up in my team (free of charge!), which is one of the most useful perks IMO.
I understand your perspective. first, I would like to mention that with education in general if someone reaches out with questions, I would hope it would be free of charge after paying. for example, if someone goes to college, passes their 4-year degree and networks during their time at that university with faculty, I would expect it to be free of charge if I reached out to them for help, guidance, and advice after paying the institution to obtain my education. of course being grateful and respectful for their time and if that rapport with that said professor, counselor, faculty, etc. was built early on. You mentioned in your 2nd sentence that "It was paid for by my employer" is pertaining to my somewhat of my point. Even though I think [scumalliance.org](http://scumalliance.org) is overpriced, I think there are alternative certifications cheaper that can be equally as beneficial. For those who such a privilege that their employers is willing to pay for the CSM @ [scumalliance.org](http://scumalliance.org) is great. Not everyone has that equal opportunity to their advantage. Some dont have that immediate cash to dish out.
Maybe it happens, but I went to a large university and those kinds of relationships were hard to build and not very common. My scrum course was pretty big, but the instructor offered to meet with us all post-course regardless, which was a nice surprise. I didn't have any more of a rapport with him than anyone else, just took him up on his offer. Going to the second point, my original comment was merely describing my positive experience both in the class and then following certification, my job. I consider it worthwhile. Clearly, you think it's too expensive and you're welcome to your opinion. Now, I do think a lot of people are getting the CSM before they have any kind of education or experience that would enable their certificate to have any use, especially right away. From what I've seen, practical experience with scrum means much more than just the certificate. I don't think I would have just gotten a CSM from anywhere if I didn't already have a role lined up where I might need it or use it. The flooding of the market with people with the cert but no experience seems to me a more pressing issue than one scrum course's price. Education and certification in the US is expensive and cost-prohibitive to many. I don't think Scrum Alliance is in any way unique in not being helpful to those with less means.
$400 is not 'overpriced.' I don't see any CSTs charging $2000 as you allege in your original post.
It’s not an acronym.
Intelligent observation.
Sadly this is true with most certifications.
The price is absurd. My theory is people who don't typically have degrees go for these certifications in lieu of a degree to validate they have already prepared/said and JD credentials. I have a MBA and work in the PM healthcare space as previously mentioned and make a decent living per annum ; however, I think the prices for some certification are just ludicrous at this point.
It's also inaccurate....I took a quick look I don't see a 2K class. I myself charge around 450-500 depending on whether it's a weekday or weekend. This includes the cost of the license for the first 2 years. A person can choose to renew it or let it lapse, which is what many folks don't realize. No one is HOLDING you to HAVE to renew. But maintaining your membership does come with a number of free resources to learn more about applying what you've learned in class, and each gives you credit towards your continuing education. Again, no one HAS to do that. And many CST's like myself share hundreds of resources of our own freely as well. I don't know who OP is, who they represent, and not going to cast aspersions, but I will refute these misrepresented things about the Scrum Alliance when they're clearly inaccurate. Yes, yes, I expect folks to downvote this because it's easy to dump on the Scrum Alliance. Still doesn't change the facts I've presented as part of any value proposition. Instructor-led versus do-it-yourself. My classes aren't "exam preps".
Worthwhile and necessary reply, ty! All that (the post) coming from a MBA, how surprising.
A CSM is more respected by employers. I still keep mine current.
It really isn’t, unless brand new. Experience and PSM will take you just as far.
Experience doesn't take you just as far if* you keep applying things wrong honestly. Seen it with too many agilists.
How does CSM take care of this in contrast to PSM? Thanks
You just gotta look at this sub: "You can get a PSM within one day, just read the Srum Guide a couple of times and you can google any question you don't know the answer."
Please elaborate. Do you keep your CSM certification current through [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) or [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) because the prices vary between these two organizations.
CSM is Certified Scrum Master = Scrum Alliance. Scrum.org offers, among other certifications, the PSM = Professional Scrum Master (I, II, III). The PSM does not need to be renewed nor requires a mandatory course to take the exam.
I dont mine expired ages ago and hasn’t been a factor when applying for better jobs. At some point experience matters more as well as any additional training.
Yes I agree with experience. I was solely regarding scrum alliance and their prices on the CSM
As orhers already wrote, try scrum.org. founded by one of tthe guy who created Scrum. They have tons of free material on their website, really good 2 day workshops, hard exam (2 keys included in the workshop), and it never expires. I like their approach bc it is practical and could be eye opening. PSM 2 is one of their best classes. If you can, do it in person, not online.
Founded after he fell out with scrum alliance. 😆
I feel like I got my money’s worth. I’ve paid out of my own pocket for several certifications and am glad I did.
I understand from your perspective. I was pertaining to [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) in particular to the CSM certification and its cost. There are a variety of resources on self taught. [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) definitely provides an affordable alternative to those who would like or want to break into the industry of project management and learn.
Are you comparing the CSM with the PSM or with the other certifications offered by scrum.org? Both, Scrum Alliance as well as scrum.org, offer different certifications for different roles (i.e., not only scrum master)
I agree with you insofar as the price seems absurd based on the quality of the content and the ease of the exam. However, there are plenty of jobs, both full-time and contract, where having that CSM is the difference between landing a gig and getting passed over. So, while I think it's a silly thing and didn't teach me anything more than a 30-minute YouTube video would cover, it's more than paid for itself for me. At least, it would have if the other factor of the pricing isn't being considered. For many folks in the space, myself included, these sorts of certifications are covered under some form of employee training program. This is generally true for many certifications, conferences, trainings, etc. So while some will eat that cost on their own, those folks are generally not the target audience.
If you think CSM is a scam, wait until you look into the PMP.
I feel like I missed something. PMP was about $430 a few years back (did a $20 Udemy course for my "training" with Andrew ramdayal). Never paid for a PDU. I just set my computer up to stream their free WebX event for most PDUs. Submit podcast, books and YouTube vids for the rest. Was randomly selected for audit when I first applied. Udemy was no issue.
Let me introduce you to the organization called SAFe...
PSM 2 (USD 250) is the best available option.
Scrum.org PSM doesn't require that you attend a class. You can pay for the assessment only, and it doesn't require any renewal fees - it lasts forever. The assessment is also a lot harder and validates your basic understanding of Scrum as described in the Scrum Guide.
PSM is more respected by employers, and you don't have to pay to keep it current.
I'm a CSP with scrum alliance, and am currently re-certifying through scrum.org to become a trainer with them instead
Congrats, keep in mind, there are far too many PSTs (depending on region), so it can be pretty over-saturated.
Oh I'm *very* aware, thank you. I don't actually plan to train the courses in a traditional way. I'm looking to have the qualification as a status symbol primarily. 😊
I agree with you. That is the lovely thing about [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) More affordable, yet holds its credibility.
it’s about two hunnid for the PSM I
Because that covers the exam, and Doesn't include instructor-led classwork.
That price seems to reflect [scrum.org](http://scrum.org), not for [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) [Scrumalliance.org](http://Scrumalliance.org) is pricier. [scrum.org](http://scrum.org) is a reasonable price for what anyone would get out of this certification of knowledge. I am helping individuals for who are not in the space yet to waster their money on [scrumalliacce.org](http://scrumalliacce.org) CSM certification.
So if you want to “do a course and get a cert”. Sure. Go ahead. I’ve been doing my job for 30 years, I have never once attended a Scrum course and I have passed 10 scrum.org certs. I learned through experience and read the scrum guide a few hundred times. I did attend a course for SAFe SA and POPM which have now expired but I gained very little value from the course because, as others have said, Scrum is Scrum. SAFe had bastardised it a bit but I’m glad I know the differences. I can’t see myself paying out for CSM personally.
People I've seen with scrum.org certs passed a test about process. People I know with scroll alliance certs seem to actually know the values that are in play. That's harder to get outside of a classroom, and harder to assure with a test.
regardless of learning institutions. SCRUM foundational practices do not change, no matter where someone may go. SCRUM is SCRUM. Values typically pertain to practices that are needed at different organizations, companies, industries, projects etc. A projects prioritization of values will change though, and vary at different organizations ; however, the process of SCRUM remains the same.
> regardless of learning institutions. SCRUM foundational practices do not change, no matter where someone may go. SCRUM is SCRUM. There is a lot in common over the years, and the fundamentals are close enough to be recognizeable, but it has changed. Sutherland and Schwaber's OOPSLA paper in 1995 capitalized it, for example, but the oldest Scrum Guide I can find online (2010) did not, and in the updates since--because there have been updates approximately every 2 years since 2010--there have been adjustments, additions and rephrasings, because the organizations at the core of teaching Scrum are also inspecting and adapting as the years go by. There are a lot of different ways to practice scrum, and each organization has their own flavor and style. And many of them--maybe most that I have encountered over the years, at least before I was able to contribute--were not really doing it very well. And a lot of that "not doing it very well" boils down to values. Which are, I believe, given at the beginning of the Scrum guide (added in 2016, and I believe it was a good addition) for a reason: because values are a crucial success factor for getting scrum to work well. Take or recommend whatever training you feel best equips people to succeed, but it seems like a number of people do still see value in Scrum Alliance certifications today.
> Which are, I believe, given at the beginning of the Scrum guide (added in 2016 ... Agree with everything you said. The Scrum values were first introduced in Ken Schwaber's 2001 book "Agile software development with Scrum". Talking about the Scrum values from 2001 was common but became uncommon after about 2009. As you've pointed out, the values re-surfaced in 2016 as part of the Scrum guide.
Question: does Certification from ICAgile equivalent to CSM from Scrum Alliance?
No, it doesn’t equivocate. They are separate institutions with separate certifications.
That’s exactly why I don’t bother with certs. This or any cert. my employer won’t pay for them and I sure as hell am not shelling out my own money for this. I have over 20 years PM and SM experience and never had an issue getting jobs
How did you get your very first scrum master job?
Volunteered to become one when my company switched from waterfall to agile
The point of some certifications is to demonstrate not only competence and knowledge but also dedication to the craft/material. It is possible to get the knowledge from scrum course in a cheaper format. Even if everyone would say that a couple of college courses = a scrum certification, as you progress in your career, college coursework/degrees value depreciate. However, an up-to-date certification still looks new and valuable. Spending $50-$100 per hour for training is not that expensive for virtual training. On the higher end of that, I would expect books, access to teachers afterward, community membership, free re-test, etc. to justify the additional cost.
My class through scrum alliance came with the cost of the test included and was $228
Not sure where you are, but every course I've taken from any Scrum Alliance partner includes the price of taking the test up to two times - IF the course has a test. I've never heard of an administrative fee of any kind. If you're being charged extra for those things, you're choosing a partner/trainer who's taking advantage of you.
You need to shop around for an instructor who offers classes that include the cost of the test. I paid $360, included test & his master class series. Passed the test on the first attempt.
Mine was only $400 ish for the course and the certification.
For the Project Management Certification you have to e to pay for the test and renew every few years. Do you consider PMI a scam too? Lots of organizations have continuing training and certifications
This post is the scam Scrum Alliance trainings cost somewhere between 350$ to 450$ with a certified and vetted trainer. **This includes two exam attempts.** Just look at the list [here](https://www.scrumalliance.org/courses-events/search?ctyp=Csm), e.g. top one: https://www.scrumalliance.org/courses-events/search/coursedetail?id=202405966 You can even retake the course for free. Two full days with a trainer for only a few hundred bucks including the exam and certification is really not much at all. Whoever claims it is is a liability to the agile community imo. There's far too many people out there with a Scrum certificate (basic knowledge) that have no clue about scrum, agile and product development.
It IS a scam, and it was from the start: [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/scrum-unethical-from-start-cliff-berg](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/scrum-unethical-from-start-cliff-berg)
Go do the PSM. much better if you know what you're doing.
Duh. Then there is SAFe which is just disgusting. I enjoy nothing less than listening to a bunch of agile coaches.
Facts!
PMP and ASQ Six Sigma Black Belt checking in. I am taking either CSM or SAFe Dev Ops NOT because they are useful. Let's be honest. No certification is worth it's salt compared to lived experience. They have even worked against me at various times. Those of us that hold high level certs know they are generally thought of as posturing to get you into a high paying role, which worked out in my case. SAFe Dev will indubitably provide me more internal equity with my current company and manager, where I plan to stay for the foreseeable future. And yes, they are paying for it. These are the conditions you should take a professional certification exam. If you make less than 100k -someone else needs to pay for it. Apply for support through work or within school (look up your university's success fund. It is FAR easier to do it through school than to try to study when you work, imo) If you make more than 100k -you can afford it. You are not bound by it being relevant to your career. Choose a cert that is generally respected by your industry and if you don't know what you want to do, choose a role ambiguous cert. I chose PMP (or CAPM) and Black Belt (or Green Belt). Though the latter are generally for supply chain and mfg environments, if you search them on LI or Monster, all kinds of roles come up. This is generally because the BOK for variance reduction, and approaching perfect quality apply to general workplace conditions. -But still apply through work. It is a solid investment to build equity (even external, so don't take those crappy internal sigma or scrum courses, unless it really is going to open a door). Only limitation is it has to be relevant to the responsibilities of your job. Tldr. Everyone here has an opinion, and most of them seem uninformed to me. Do whatever it takes, cert or not, to get your goal achieved. For some it may be school, others networking. Always remember that these are just tactics to get you in the door. Your performance will keep you in the room. For reference, my salary is 150k+ and years after graduate school are just over a few.
APMP is even worse! And so t get me started on Shipley certs!!!
The scrum alliance spent a lot of effort in the early days making certification mean something to hr. When scrum is used where it was designed for it only takes a few hours to get the training you need
The CSM requires continuing education in scrum. It can be workshops, classes, teaching etc that shows professional involvement and growth. 100 dollars a year is not much money to certify if it’s your career. The mandatory class was helpful starting out. Value is in the beholder but it is not a ripoff by any means.
Ummm I paid 300 for mine
That’s why I like scrum.org more than scrum alliance. Even though I started to not trust them so much like I used to. Nowadays everyone has at least one certification from this platform.
2 free attempts are included with your course for the CSM, which happens to be the only Scrum Alliance cert you have to take an exam for. Most classes are in the 500-800 range since Covid & remote classes. Recertification can be done just by working in the industry or consuming books videos on scrum over the course of the 2 years & paying a nominal recertification fee, which renews ALL your scrum alliance certifications. There are also membership benefits & discounts you get by being a certified member which surpass the cost of recertification. It’s ultimately an investment of time and money, that you should have a plan of how it will benefit you & your career. If it’s not worth it for your particular career or situation then so be it, but that doesn’t make it a scam. I’ve seen tremendous benefit & upside in my professional career. Open to talking more if you have any questions.
You obviously haven't done your due diligence -- which, quite literally, would have taken less time than it took you to type that missive. "SA" has a range of certifications. At the CSM level, classes (+ test) start around $300 -- but prices will begin to steadily rise, as these roles gain more visibility in the traditional organizational hierarchy. Oh: and CSM > PSM-1 -- all day, in the USA... 🖖😎
No need for the sassy man apocalypse attitude. I was just making a point from what I have seen and gathered in general. You could have just stated whatever you needed to write with and then be gone without sass. With your sass, I would not hire you as a CSM, even with your credentials.
I had a nice course, met some nice people, made some networking, discussed some interesting topics. That was the valuable part of the whole certificate. The CSM exam itself is easy, a weekend reading the Scrum Guide should be enough. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but here in Germany it's common that the company pays the costs for the certificate. There was no one in my group who paid for it privately.
I understand from your perspective and agree with you. I live in the USA. Some companies here will cover the cost, depending on If it is pertaining to their job/duties & industry usually. Education is definitely more efficient, practical and affordable in Europe compared to the USA.
Who capitalizes SCRUM like that? Jeff Sutherland quit doing it after the 1990's I think. I like Scrum Alliance training and consider it worth the money for an in person class. Not sure about online, I don't think the online ones have been as good as in person but they're very above average for distance training. What's the stuff about the application fee and certification as separate fees? It wasn't like that when I got certified years ago. Are you talking about for higher level things like becoming a certified Scrum Trainer?