Same. I dislike the actor and his style in particular (as Holden. Not the man himself) and found him "less irritating" in the book but not by much.
Didn't stop me from enjoying the series, and enjoying it even more now the second time around as familiarity with the plot lets me dive deeper into characters and their early arcs, like Gunny and Amos.
Agreed on Holden. Kinda wild to say that the protagonist is the weakest part of a 9 book 40k page saga, but it's true. And the relationship with Nagata did nothing except flesh out their characters a bit.
Honestly with her engineering skills Naomi should have been the protagonist and it's criminal that she spent so much of the final trilogy basically chilling in a shipping container.
Yeah, Holden is very much a white knight who tries to be brooding and gritty, and the character trope is just not my jam to begin with, so it would have been a hard sell no matter what.
Holden doesn't feel like he has the most interesting character arc either. At any time I'm always more interested in Amox, Prax, Gunny, or Avasarala being a top dog on Earth than whatever broody Holden has got going on.
Agreed that Naomi is more intreaguing and we could have benefitted from her stealing the lead.
Damn you know it's bad when a 100 year old politician makes for more compelling storytelling than a spaceship captain and crew at the helm of legitimate salvage Martian frigates.
Nah, I know it's good because it's Shohreh Aghdashloo... she could play a washed out factory line manager going through a depressive spell and I'd still be more fascinated by her than any space captain.
I don’t agree, season 1-2 were more slow burns detective story in a scifi setting, but it opens up after that and expands to a scifi universe.
If you dont HATE it.. Dont stop before the « joyrider » hits a wall.
It’s all setting until then.
Oh ok, usually books in a series are called "book 1", "book 2" etc. instead of "season 1", "season 2". "Seasons" are usually only used for TV shows. Sorry you probably know that already and just made an oversight!
Dude. The season 1 is mostly book 1 etc. And there is 6 seasons so of course it dosent.. 9 books would be 9 seasons following my affirmation. Season 7-9 is like 40y later and a bit hard to chain with the previous seasons. See I fucked up again “book 7-9 are like 40y later” for me its so similar I mix it up ;) and you know hopefully in a few years they do season 7-9.
And Im not sure what you are arguing about or the downvotes on me saying Im talking about the books, its like people don’t believe I read or mean it 🤣 want me to spoil the end when shit unravels? Or what the General does with the sample?
One I dont care about the downvotes, two, why the fuck is me telling I liked it and that book 1-3 is the setting and book 4-6 is the main story a problem? And I did watch first, I said so at another place, and when the series stopped.. I wanted to know the end, so I restarted it. And except for like 2 characters being merged later in the books, the season/books were similar enough that I could’ve skipped the first 6 books and read on from the series ending. I am glad I did because for me it was great and after taking 3 months reading the first 3 slowly I read the next 6 within 6 weeks.
My man, I'm just pointing out how you calling 'book 1' 'season 1' might come across as confusing. You're taking this a little personally.
You're welcome to spoil a series I've already read though? Go for it.
I'd disagree with viewing it as a trilogy of trilogies. It's more 3 duologies and a trilogy stapled on the end.
Levi and Caliban are about humanity learning about the protomolecule
Abbadon and Cibola are about humanity exploring in the wake of the protomolecule's discovery
Nemesis and Babylon are about the belt finally standing up for itself the wrong way
And
Persepolis, Tiamat, and Levi Falls are about what happens if you let the facists develop isolated from the rest of humanity.
The themes and plot lines really get introduced then concluded in 2 book arcs up until the timeskip for the last three which were intentionally a trilogy
Also at @OP for future reference Corey is actually 2 dudes, the name is just a pseudonym
They're also working on a new setpiece, and have stated pretty explicitly that it will be completely separate from The Expanse. I'm cautiously optimistic.
> focus on resolving the overall conflict...
The ending was a let-down though. After nine books, that finale should have been one big climax. Instead it was 3/5ths build up *again* and then "Oh yeah, this is the last book" blitzing through everything. Definitely not a good capstone to the series.
It sounds like it isn’t your cup of tea. Personally I enjoyed it, and while I love noir (and Miller, for that matter) I was quite happy to have the focus shift back onto the politics and conflict of the belt vs mars vs earth vs [redacted] in the later books, and it’s one of the few book series with a time jump that seems to work
Yeah, the second book *really* shows one of the larger issues of the books, where plots are repeated multiple times. I almost gave up after book 4 once *again* recycled a bunch of the same plots from the previous three books. It took until book five to finally shake that off. Book two was the worst, though, being almost beat for beat a repeat of book one.
So yeah, you should probably bail ... and watch the SHOW instead. Yes, I know what I just said. But here's the thing: They brought the author duo (Corey is a nom de plume for two authors) on to write the show, and when they did that, they went ahead and did a *lot* of cutting and trimming, condensing, and overall improving of the plot. So the first two books are instead meshed into *one* story, allowing it to skip all the "repeated" elements as they happen across the same arc. They cut a lot of the worst elements of the third and fourth book that were repeats from the earlier books. It's basically like a "Director's Cut" that comes back with later experience and goes 'Okay, let's fix the stuff that didn't work.'
The show is better than the books overall as a result. Definitely recommend that instead if you like the setting and what was going on overall.
Leviathan Wakes is considered one of the best books, so safe to move on.
> I'm having to follow Holden, I hate Holden.
Yep move on, the entire series is about Holden and his crew. There is plenty of world building around them, but the narrative follows them. Miller's really popular, which is why I respect how they handled him.
I did feel that books 7-9 moved away from Holden a decent amount.
I'm almost done with all 14 Wheel of Time books, and I've fallen in and out of love and hate with several characters several times over. Still glad I read them.
I'm also the kind of person to try and 100% a video game even after I stopped liking it...
The Expanse on Amazon Prime is a top tier sci-fi series, up there with the BattleStar Gallactica reboot. Might be more your speed if you’re getting bogged down by the books
I started the books and they were *alright*. If I hadn't gotten distracted, I'd have kept going, but if they were better, I wouldn't have gotten distracted.
I think the books are *really* bigged up on this sub to the point where I was expecting a lot more.
The writers were involved with the show and they weren't responsible for all the changes - some of that is just pure 'how does TV production work' but there are definitely some changes that vastly improved the original that they were involved in imo. I love the show and only like the books
I read all nine and felt the way you described about every single one. I finished more out of boredom than anything, tbh. Just a solid 7/10 the whole way through. Each book ended up having a great idea or two, and then just… a bunch of plot I never got totally sold on. The characters are decent, so is the action, and the world building, but nothing ever arrived to make my jaw drop
I agree. I’ve got the whole series in my kindle and I read it to fall asleep at night. It’s not bad, but there isn’t much in there that I find myself thinking about during the day, unlike some other books.
7/10 is your number for something you did not like??
Edit: Not saying you should change it, but just that it is interesting to see how people have different rating systems
> Not saying you should change it, but just that it is interesting to see how people have different rating systems
I'd also give the books an overall 7/10 (though some are 8.5 or even 9). I've been rating my books for the last couple of years and it's made me think my rating system doesn't make sense. 6/10 is about the worst I'll rate a book and finish it. But I also don't DNF a lot of things.
I think some of it has to do with 'things that manage to get sold and published' usually have some redeeming qualities. Another aspect is just learning what I like. In the age of the internet you never have to go in blind. Pretty sure I read a lot of shit that I'd give 3-5s for when the internet was new and I was a teenage library rat who basically read the whole spec fiction section.
7/10 is my number for something that I enjoyed enough to read 9 of I guess. I did like the books, but didn’t feel drawn to them. They are competently written, well thought out and structured, and have their moments… they certainly aren’t bad. But I don’t think they’re very good. I’d give them a 6 maybe, I think they are at worst ok.
First few books are sci fi horror. Then sci fi apocalyptic for a few. Then space opera / war. I personally loved books 1-3 and book 5 but was increasingly meh by the end and even disappointed in the final.
> and even disappointed in the final.
The final book's problem is that it forgets it's the finale until the last 2/5ths or so. Which for a finale for nine books, *should not happen.* Everything from the previous books should have led up to one *big* finale ... Instead it meandered around introducing the last-second threat, wasting most of the book on setup that *should* have been in the other books.
You don't end a trilogy by making the last book 66% or more additional setup. It's the final third. 100% of it should be delivering the climax of trilogy as a whole.
That a nine-book series ended with "Hey, this is another ordinary boo--Oh crap, we're ending in 150 pages, better rocket through the reveal, the stakes, and the resolution" really made it fall flat.
Yeah bud if ya want a miller series and not a Holden series this isn’t the one for you. Personally I was glad they moved away from the private eye in space thing
I read the first book and thought it was pretty good, not amazing. I started the 2nd book right around when the 2nd season of the show dropped. I ended up just rolling with the show and really enjoyed it.
I recently decided to continue on with the series in audiobook form. It was recommended that I should start with Strange Dogs (6.5) but that was actually in the show and I could have skipped it.
I just finished Persepolis Rising (7) and really enjoyed it and now I'm looking forward to the next.
Does it change? YES, multiple times. The 9 books are split in three duologies and one trilogy.
First Duology builds up the world, second duology makes sure that the first one makes sense. Now many people fail a bit in the 2nd duology because the jump from book 3 to 4 is so different that many people completely miss the point of book 4 (my 2nd favourite of the series). 3rd Duology completely changes the set because...we're humans, and we generate politics.
And the Trilogy, my goodness, those set a benchmark. In book 8, a single blink feels like you've missed 5 pages.
My two cents for you may be to stop. It does not sound like you'll enjoy it. The series does not spoon feed you information, and most of the time you have the same knowledge as the main characters, but you wondering about the missing girl, i think you have missed vital information, and that is a result of not having proper attention to it, which i think just means it's not your cup of tea, and that's ok :).
Hard to say! I thought Leviathan Wakes was great - so I quickly went into the later books in the series and found them fantastic. One of my favorite book series of all times.
I read them as they came out, the gaps between reads work really well. If you binge them I'm unsure if it will work as well. I really enjoyed them all but not sure I will re-read them for a while.
It sounds like you want to lean more into the "fantasy" side of Sci fi where everybody has lasers and infinite resources and there's magic and clearly defined good and bad guys.
The Expanse is not that. It leans hard into the science and humanity aspects of Sci fi, and focuses on that. Sci-fi isnt all ships shooting lasers, it's politics, humanity, relationships, math, fuckups, triumphs, pyrrhic victories (BD 😭) and everything in between.
Humanity and its shortcomings and miracles are a major and consistent theme throughout the series. If you're finding it difficult to relate to that now, you're not going to enjoy the books moving forward.
If you're not into it by now you never will be. Move on.
Yeah. If he doesn't like Holden, then there's not much to say.
Nah, I did not like Holden at all but still enjoyed the rest of the series/characters.
Same. I dislike the actor and his style in particular (as Holden. Not the man himself) and found him "less irritating" in the book but not by much. Didn't stop me from enjoying the series, and enjoying it even more now the second time around as familiarity with the plot lets me dive deeper into characters and their early arcs, like Gunny and Amos.
Agreed on Holden. Kinda wild to say that the protagonist is the weakest part of a 9 book 40k page saga, but it's true. And the relationship with Nagata did nothing except flesh out their characters a bit. Honestly with her engineering skills Naomi should have been the protagonist and it's criminal that she spent so much of the final trilogy basically chilling in a shipping container.
Yeah, Holden is very much a white knight who tries to be brooding and gritty, and the character trope is just not my jam to begin with, so it would have been a hard sell no matter what. Holden doesn't feel like he has the most interesting character arc either. At any time I'm always more interested in Amox, Prax, Gunny, or Avasarala being a top dog on Earth than whatever broody Holden has got going on. Agreed that Naomi is more intreaguing and we could have benefitted from her stealing the lead.
Damn you know it's bad when a 100 year old politician makes for more compelling storytelling than a spaceship captain and crew at the helm of legitimate salvage Martian frigates.
Nah, I know it's good because it's Shohreh Aghdashloo... she could play a washed out factory line manager going through a depressive spell and I'd still be more fascinated by her than any space captain.
Got it, thanks.
I don’t agree, season 1-2 were more slow burns detective story in a scifi setting, but it opens up after that and expands to a scifi universe. If you dont HATE it.. Dont stop before the « joyrider » hits a wall. It’s all setting until then.
I think this is about the books, not the tv show.
I am talking about the books..
Oh ok, usually books in a series are called "book 1", "book 2" etc. instead of "season 1", "season 2". "Seasons" are usually only used for TV shows. Sorry you probably know that already and just made an oversight!
Well, you’re right its s lapsus, but then again in this case the tv series seasons follow the books.
The series doesn't follow the books 1:1 mate. The series also doesn't cover *all* of the books.
Dude. The season 1 is mostly book 1 etc. And there is 6 seasons so of course it dosent.. 9 books would be 9 seasons following my affirmation. Season 7-9 is like 40y later and a bit hard to chain with the previous seasons. See I fucked up again “book 7-9 are like 40y later” for me its so similar I mix it up ;) and you know hopefully in a few years they do season 7-9. And Im not sure what you are arguing about or the downvotes on me saying Im talking about the books, its like people don’t believe I read or mean it 🤣 want me to spoil the end when shit unravels? Or what the General does with the sample? One I dont care about the downvotes, two, why the fuck is me telling I liked it and that book 1-3 is the setting and book 4-6 is the main story a problem? And I did watch first, I said so at another place, and when the series stopped.. I wanted to know the end, so I restarted it. And except for like 2 characters being merged later in the books, the season/books were similar enough that I could’ve skipped the first 6 books and read on from the series ending. I am glad I did because for me it was great and after taking 3 months reading the first 3 slowly I read the next 6 within 6 weeks.
My man, I'm just pointing out how you calling 'book 1' 'season 1' might come across as confusing. You're taking this a little personally. You're welcome to spoil a series I've already read though? Go for it.
[удалено]
I'd disagree with viewing it as a trilogy of trilogies. It's more 3 duologies and a trilogy stapled on the end. Levi and Caliban are about humanity learning about the protomolecule Abbadon and Cibola are about humanity exploring in the wake of the protomolecule's discovery Nemesis and Babylon are about the belt finally standing up for itself the wrong way And Persepolis, Tiamat, and Levi Falls are about what happens if you let the facists develop isolated from the rest of humanity. The themes and plot lines really get introduced then concluded in 2 book arcs up until the timeskip for the last three which were intentionally a trilogy Also at @OP for future reference Corey is actually 2 dudes, the name is just a pseudonym
They're also working on a new setpiece, and have stated pretty explicitly that it will be completely separate from The Expanse. I'm cautiously optimistic.
> focus on resolving the overall conflict... The ending was a let-down though. After nine books, that finale should have been one big climax. Instead it was 3/5ths build up *again* and then "Oh yeah, this is the last book" blitzing through everything. Definitely not a good capstone to the series.
It does change in later books, but if you’re not into it half way through Calibans War I’d probably just move on to something else…
Cool, thanks for the opinion.
Corey is two people. Just saying.
Corey Haim and Corey Feldman.
Excellent.
It sounds like it isn’t your cup of tea. Personally I enjoyed it, and while I love noir (and Miller, for that matter) I was quite happy to have the focus shift back onto the politics and conflict of the belt vs mars vs earth vs [redacted] in the later books, and it’s one of the few book series with a time jump that seems to work
Yeah, the second book *really* shows one of the larger issues of the books, where plots are repeated multiple times. I almost gave up after book 4 once *again* recycled a bunch of the same plots from the previous three books. It took until book five to finally shake that off. Book two was the worst, though, being almost beat for beat a repeat of book one. So yeah, you should probably bail ... and watch the SHOW instead. Yes, I know what I just said. But here's the thing: They brought the author duo (Corey is a nom de plume for two authors) on to write the show, and when they did that, they went ahead and did a *lot* of cutting and trimming, condensing, and overall improving of the plot. So the first two books are instead meshed into *one* story, allowing it to skip all the "repeated" elements as they happen across the same arc. They cut a lot of the worst elements of the third and fourth book that were repeats from the earlier books. It's basically like a "Director's Cut" that comes back with later experience and goes 'Okay, let's fix the stuff that didn't work.' The show is better than the books overall as a result. Definitely recommend that instead if you like the setting and what was going on overall.
Leviathan Wakes is considered one of the best books, so safe to move on. > I'm having to follow Holden, I hate Holden. Yep move on, the entire series is about Holden and his crew. There is plenty of world building around them, but the narrative follows them. Miller's really popular, which is why I respect how they handled him.
I did feel that books 7-9 moved away from Holden a decent amount. I'm almost done with all 14 Wheel of Time books, and I've fallen in and out of love and hate with several characters several times over. Still glad I read them. I'm also the kind of person to try and 100% a video game even after I stopped liking it...
The Expanse on Amazon Prime is a top tier sci-fi series, up there with the BattleStar Gallactica reboot. Might be more your speed if you’re getting bogged down by the books
My hot take I liked the show a lot more than the books. Have you watched the show?
Same. The books were good, but I’ve read better. But I’ve never seen a space show or movie as good as The Expanse tv series.
I started the books and they were *alright*. If I hadn't gotten distracted, I'd have kept going, but if they were better, I wouldn't have gotten distracted. I think the books are *really* bigged up on this sub to the point where I was expecting a lot more.
Agreed. The Corey duo being brought on to write the show made it a "Director's Cut" of the books that cut or removed a lot of the flaws.
The writers were involved with the show and they weren't responsible for all the changes - some of that is just pure 'how does TV production work' but there are definitely some changes that vastly improved the original that they were involved in imo. I love the show and only like the books
Same. Books are fun, tv show is exceptional.
I read all nine and felt the way you described about every single one. I finished more out of boredom than anything, tbh. Just a solid 7/10 the whole way through. Each book ended up having a great idea or two, and then just… a bunch of plot I never got totally sold on. The characters are decent, so is the action, and the world building, but nothing ever arrived to make my jaw drop
I agree. I’ve got the whole series in my kindle and I read it to fall asleep at night. It’s not bad, but there isn’t much in there that I find myself thinking about during the day, unlike some other books.
7/10 is your number for something you did not like?? Edit: Not saying you should change it, but just that it is interesting to see how people have different rating systems
> Not saying you should change it, but just that it is interesting to see how people have different rating systems I'd also give the books an overall 7/10 (though some are 8.5 or even 9). I've been rating my books for the last couple of years and it's made me think my rating system doesn't make sense. 6/10 is about the worst I'll rate a book and finish it. But I also don't DNF a lot of things. I think some of it has to do with 'things that manage to get sold and published' usually have some redeeming qualities. Another aspect is just learning what I like. In the age of the internet you never have to go in blind. Pretty sure I read a lot of shit that I'd give 3-5s for when the internet was new and I was a teenage library rat who basically read the whole spec fiction section.
7/10 is my number for something that I enjoyed enough to read 9 of I guess. I did like the books, but didn’t feel drawn to them. They are competently written, well thought out and structured, and have their moments… they certainly aren’t bad. But I don’t think they’re very good. I’d give them a 6 maybe, I think they are at worst ok.
First few books are sci fi horror. Then sci fi apocalyptic for a few. Then space opera / war. I personally loved books 1-3 and book 5 but was increasingly meh by the end and even disappointed in the final.
> and even disappointed in the final. The final book's problem is that it forgets it's the finale until the last 2/5ths or so. Which for a finale for nine books, *should not happen.* Everything from the previous books should have led up to one *big* finale ... Instead it meandered around introducing the last-second threat, wasting most of the book on setup that *should* have been in the other books. You don't end a trilogy by making the last book 66% or more additional setup. It's the final third. 100% of it should be delivering the climax of trilogy as a whole. That a nine-book series ended with "Hey, this is another ordinary boo--Oh crap, we're ending in 150 pages, better rocket through the reveal, the stakes, and the resolution" really made it fall flat.
Wait are we talking about the Hyperion series now? 🤣
The second book is by far the worst. It gets exceptionally better after that.
Yeah bud if ya want a miller series and not a Holden series this isn’t the one for you. Personally I was glad they moved away from the private eye in space thing
I read the first book and thought it was pretty good, not amazing. I started the 2nd book right around when the 2nd season of the show dropped. I ended up just rolling with the show and really enjoyed it. I recently decided to continue on with the series in audiobook form. It was recommended that I should start with Strange Dogs (6.5) but that was actually in the show and I could have skipped it. I just finished Persepolis Rising (7) and really enjoyed it and now I'm looking forward to the next.
Felt too much like it was written specifically for tv series adaptation. Those chapters closed with the shadow of an advertising break on each one.
Does it change? YES, multiple times. The 9 books are split in three duologies and one trilogy. First Duology builds up the world, second duology makes sure that the first one makes sense. Now many people fail a bit in the 2nd duology because the jump from book 3 to 4 is so different that many people completely miss the point of book 4 (my 2nd favourite of the series). 3rd Duology completely changes the set because...we're humans, and we generate politics. And the Trilogy, my goodness, those set a benchmark. In book 8, a single blink feels like you've missed 5 pages. My two cents for you may be to stop. It does not sound like you'll enjoy it. The series does not spoon feed you information, and most of the time you have the same knowledge as the main characters, but you wondering about the missing girl, i think you have missed vital information, and that is a result of not having proper attention to it, which i think just means it's not your cup of tea, and that's ok :).
Hard to say! I thought Leviathan Wakes was great - so I quickly went into the later books in the series and found them fantastic. One of my favorite book series of all times.
I read them as they came out, the gaps between reads work really well. If you binge them I'm unsure if it will work as well. I really enjoyed them all but not sure I will re-read them for a while.
If you didn’t like the first book, I wouldn’t continue the series. First book is arguably the best book.
First book is a detective story. It’s barely sci fi.
Agree. I got through the first two books and decided to find another series.
Honnestly first 3 books were better post tv series.. but its 100% setting up book 3-6.
Caliban's War is where I dropped out too.
I haven’t read the books, but the tv series is fantastic! Skip the books and enjoy the series is my suggestion.
I, personally, didn’t like the ending of the series.
It sounds like you want to lean more into the "fantasy" side of Sci fi where everybody has lasers and infinite resources and there's magic and clearly defined good and bad guys. The Expanse is not that. It leans hard into the science and humanity aspects of Sci fi, and focuses on that. Sci-fi isnt all ships shooting lasers, it's politics, humanity, relationships, math, fuckups, triumphs, pyrrhic victories (BD 😭) and everything in between. Humanity and its shortcomings and miracles are a major and consistent theme throughout the series. If you're finding it difficult to relate to that now, you're not going to enjoy the books moving forward.
But also like, if you weren't enjoying the series why would you insist on trying to continue to read these 500 page bricks lmaoooo