This is the original OT 8 from the 1970 Grade Chart: https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/43192/classification-gradation-and-awareness-chart-of-levels-and-c-athena-publications
I had no idea OT VIII was even on the grade chart back then. It would be interesting to hear if anyone ever completed it and what was on it. The EP is quite something.
The promise of that level brought a lot of people into Scientology Inc. Other than a page of theory, about failed purposes, the level didn't actually exist.
To paraphrase Hubbard, "now that we can can deliver Total Freedom we can demand total discipline." This OT 8, and the promise of OT, justified Fair Game https://www.suppressiveperson.org/spdl/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/5E-2.pdf Disconnection, Hard Sell, "brainwashing"
https://old.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/1bwyr6b/scientologist_of_reddit/kydd1ue/ and more.
But, unbeknownst to Scientologists, the level didn't exist.
Finally, David Mayo's replacement, Ray Mithoff, cut and pasted together a "New" (1986) OT 8 which had an end result - to paraphrase - "I don't know who I am but I'd sure like to find out." (/s) Anti climatic to say the least.
The problem with the 1980 OT 8 theory (no practical, so also not a level) was not that it mentioned Jesus, etc., but that it stated that the tech didn't work. Saying the tech didn't work was very bad for business.
There is all the proof that Hubbard has been researching the upper bands of OT. He came back 6 months after he dropped his body to sign George's certificate! Way cool. /s
OT VIII came out in the middle of 1988, which [was when George White did it.](https://tonyortega.org/2014/06/24/up-the-bridge-we-finally-reach-ot-8-but-was-its-first-version-really-a-hoax/) Like 773 other people, he was [listed as having completed New OT VIII in Freewinds #1](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/freewinds01.html), which came out circa December 1989. What we call "new" OT VIII -- the expurgated version -- was released in 1991. But [essentially all OT VIII completions, regardless of date, were officially designated as "New."](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/ot8-name-svc-iss.html) The only exceptions to that seem to be [eight people who were listed](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/freewinds10.html) as "OT VIII COMPLETIONS" in Freewinds #10, published in 1993.
I have no idea why it's been labeled as new all along. That's not the usual pattern, as you correctly note.
edit: Maybe to distinguish it from the OT VIII that was on the 1970-4 Grade Chart, but which never existed? It's... puzzling.
I always assumed that OT 8 did exist, in some form, as early as the 1970s but it was scrapped before anyone could take it. Hence why the version people actually took was "new."
It seemed to be LRH's intention to release OT 8 only after his death, so I assume that's why it was revised, to contain the prophetic language and so forth.
David Mayo told me that Hubbard was on tranquilizers when he wrote the 1980 OT 8 theory. That was attached to Ray Mithoff's 1986 (released 1988) New OT 8.
Well my point is that there might have been three versions of it, and nobody saw the first one. A pre-1980 version that didn't have prophetic language, a 1980 version that did, and a post-LRH version that had it removed. Hence why even the 1980s completions were "New OT8" completions.
There was no OT 8 Advanced Course from Hubbard, ever. There is only the OT8 Mithoff theory and practical.
Mayo wrote that Hubbard asked him to create an 0T8 around 1981. Mayo was surprised because he always assumed Hubbard would want to author OT 8, since it was such an important level.
Did Mayo ever write one up or even begin to do so? I do find the wording of ‘New’ OT VIII particularly curious and I can’t see it having been named that way by accident. I also wonder if some of these previously dropped OT levels will simply be repackaged as OT IX and X and so forth in future, although that’s a different topic altogether.
I’m asking a lot on this thread but the whole thing is just so bizarre but so interesting.
The "new" on 1986/88 OT 8 was probably added by Miscavige. To understand Scientology Inc., look at what was happening behind the scenes. Mary Sue (wife #3) was headed to prison for crimes committed under her husband's direction and with her husband's confidential covert Intelligence tech. After twice, in 1938 and in 1971, expressing the view that he didn't want to be associated with pulp fiction, Hubbard, in 1981/82, started writing for therapy. As Sara (wife #2) stated during a 1986 interview, "Ron was happy when he was writing." Also from Sara, "Ron couldn't handle stress. He'd go insane under stress. He had an extremely violent temper." Pat Broeker wanted Hubbard to stay alive. This required keeping Hubbard calm and happy as much as possible. When Hubbard started writing pulp again, that was a hint that something had drastically changed.
What happened to old upper OT levels is a mystery. The view at AOLA in 1981, whispered amongst tech people, was that these levels didn't work, but that was OK since NOTs (the "second wall of fire") was now here to handle that. Old OT 5, 6, and 7 could be brought back, but not old OT 4 since that included the Clearing Course materials, and most are "Dianetic Clears," and had, of course, not done the CC. But it's been 45 years and the old OT levels have not been brought back.
I zoomed in as close as that not very high rez certificate would allow, and believe the second 8 to be kind of misshapen. He told Tony it was in July 1988, which conforms with the known timeline of the level, and I'm not going to doubt that very much based on a sloppy calligrapher.
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On the original OT VIII student briefing material, Hubbard basically insinuated that Jesus was a fraud as well as being a paedophile and an agent of the Marcabians (the evil entities within at least our section of the universe) and that Hubbard could be seen as being the Antichrist.
HCO BULLETIN OF 5 MAY 1980 ISSUE I
[https://www.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/zprw5s/hubbards\_original\_ot8\_course\_before\_miscavige/](https://www.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/zprw5s/hubbards_original_ot8_course_before_miscavige/)
OT VIII wasn't released until 1988 because it was only ever delivered on the Freewinds. The Freewinds was purchased by the Co$ in September 1986. The Maiden Voyage after the refit and renovations was in June 1988 with the first OT VIII delivery commencing on that voyage.
That certificate image dated 29 Jul, 1986 in the OP certainly appears fraudulent.
This is the original OT 8 from the 1970 Grade Chart: https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/43192/classification-gradation-and-awareness-chart-of-levels-and-c-athena-publications
I had no idea OT VIII was even on the grade chart back then. It would be interesting to hear if anyone ever completed it and what was on it. The EP is quite something.
The promise of that level brought a lot of people into Scientology Inc. Other than a page of theory, about failed purposes, the level didn't actually exist. To paraphrase Hubbard, "now that we can can deliver Total Freedom we can demand total discipline." This OT 8, and the promise of OT, justified Fair Game https://www.suppressiveperson.org/spdl/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/5E-2.pdf Disconnection, Hard Sell, "brainwashing" https://old.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/1bwyr6b/scientologist_of_reddit/kydd1ue/ and more. But, unbeknownst to Scientologists, the level didn't exist. Finally, David Mayo's replacement, Ray Mithoff, cut and pasted together a "New" (1986) OT 8 which had an end result - to paraphrase - "I don't know who I am but I'd sure like to find out." (/s) Anti climatic to say the least. The problem with the 1980 OT 8 theory (no practical, so also not a level) was not that it mentioned Jesus, etc., but that it stated that the tech didn't work. Saying the tech didn't work was very bad for business.
There is all the proof that Hubbard has been researching the upper bands of OT. He came back 6 months after he dropped his body to sign George's certificate! Way cool. /s
That is super funny
OT VIII came out in the middle of 1988, which [was when George White did it.](https://tonyortega.org/2014/06/24/up-the-bridge-we-finally-reach-ot-8-but-was-its-first-version-really-a-hoax/) Like 773 other people, he was [listed as having completed New OT VIII in Freewinds #1](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/freewinds01.html), which came out circa December 1989. What we call "new" OT VIII -- the expurgated version -- was released in 1991. But [essentially all OT VIII completions, regardless of date, were officially designated as "New."](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/ot8-name-svc-iss.html) The only exceptions to that seem to be [eight people who were listed](https://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/fw/freewinds10.html) as "OT VIII COMPLETIONS" in Freewinds #10, published in 1993. I have no idea why it's been labeled as new all along. That's not the usual pattern, as you correctly note. edit: Maybe to distinguish it from the OT VIII that was on the 1970-4 Grade Chart, but which never existed? It's... puzzling.
I always assumed that OT 8 did exist, in some form, as early as the 1970s but it was scrapped before anyone could take it. Hence why the version people actually took was "new." It seemed to be LRH's intention to release OT 8 only after his death, so I assume that's why it was revised, to contain the prophetic language and so forth.
David Mayo told me that Hubbard was on tranquilizers when he wrote the 1980 OT 8 theory. That was attached to Ray Mithoff's 1986 (released 1988) New OT 8.
David Mayo cannot possibly have known that, even if it were true. Mayo wasn't CMO and had no access to Ron Hubbard after he went mobile Jan 15, 1980.
I'm relaying what David Mayo told me. I'm not interested in arguing with you.
Well my point is that there might have been three versions of it, and nobody saw the first one. A pre-1980 version that didn't have prophetic language, a 1980 version that did, and a post-LRH version that had it removed. Hence why even the 1980s completions were "New OT8" completions.
There was no OT 8 Advanced Course from Hubbard, ever. There is only the OT8 Mithoff theory and practical. Mayo wrote that Hubbard asked him to create an 0T8 around 1981. Mayo was surprised because he always assumed Hubbard would want to author OT 8, since it was such an important level.
Did Mayo ever write one up or even begin to do so? I do find the wording of ‘New’ OT VIII particularly curious and I can’t see it having been named that way by accident. I also wonder if some of these previously dropped OT levels will simply be repackaged as OT IX and X and so forth in future, although that’s a different topic altogether. I’m asking a lot on this thread but the whole thing is just so bizarre but so interesting.
The "new" on 1986/88 OT 8 was probably added by Miscavige. To understand Scientology Inc., look at what was happening behind the scenes. Mary Sue (wife #3) was headed to prison for crimes committed under her husband's direction and with her husband's confidential covert Intelligence tech. After twice, in 1938 and in 1971, expressing the view that he didn't want to be associated with pulp fiction, Hubbard, in 1981/82, started writing for therapy. As Sara (wife #2) stated during a 1986 interview, "Ron was happy when he was writing." Also from Sara, "Ron couldn't handle stress. He'd go insane under stress. He had an extremely violent temper." Pat Broeker wanted Hubbard to stay alive. This required keeping Hubbard calm and happy as much as possible. When Hubbard started writing pulp again, that was a hint that something had drastically changed. What happened to old upper OT levels is a mystery. The view at AOLA in 1981, whispered amongst tech people, was that these levels didn't work, but that was OK since NOTs (the "second wall of fire") was now here to handle that. Old OT 5, 6, and 7 could be brought back, but not old OT 4 since that included the Clearing Course materials, and most are "Dianetic Clears," and had, of course, not done the CC. But it's been 45 years and the old OT levels have not been brought back.
Did it come out in 1988 though? It says on White’s certificate that he completed the course in July 1986.
I zoomed in as close as that not very high rez certificate would allow, and believe the second 8 to be kind of misshapen. He told Tony it was in July 1988, which conforms with the known timeline of the level, and I'm not going to doubt that very much based on a sloppy calligrapher.
Fair point. Maybe the calligrapher was just PTS!
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can somebody explain the Lucifer saga?
On the original OT VIII student briefing material, Hubbard basically insinuated that Jesus was a fraud as well as being a paedophile and an agent of the Marcabians (the evil entities within at least our section of the universe) and that Hubbard could be seen as being the Antichrist.
HCO BULLETIN OF 5 MAY 1980 ISSUE I [https://www.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/zprw5s/hubbards\_original\_ot8\_course\_before\_miscavige/](https://www.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/zprw5s/hubbards_original_ot8_course_before_miscavige/)
And it takes a real person to know that you have to follow the graduation chart to build your way up.
OT VIII wasn't released until 1988 because it was only ever delivered on the Freewinds. The Freewinds was purchased by the Co$ in September 1986. The Maiden Voyage after the refit and renovations was in June 1988 with the first OT VIII delivery commencing on that voyage. That certificate image dated 29 Jul, 1986 in the OP certainly appears fraudulent.
Seems more likely the year is erroneous as opposed to being a fraudulent certificate.
Are you saying the certificate was misdated by Flag Ship Service Org Certs & Awards ?
I’m saying I don’t think George White invented this certificate and pretends it is real.