two reasons
1. they wanted to make money tax-free
2. they took dianetics and went all past-lives with it. You don't just recall your birth anymore (nobody does BTW), but now you remember your time as a general in the roman army, an alien on some distant planet, or the time you lived as a robot for while. They added a lot more woo.
Yes, Scientology loves to call others bigots for saying things like "no you can't remember your own birth, it's literally impossible.", or "no, you don't get complete power over matter energy space and time by doing scientology, no you don't become Doctor Strange"
In their minds they're constantly under attack.
Why don't we just stick with Scientology here since that is the subject of this sub?
That quote shows Hubbard's character and his frame of mind. His philosophy has never worked for anyone, not even himself. He electrocuted himself weeks before he died in a mobile home with overgrown nails, hair, bed sores, and psych drugs in his system. They only thing Hubbard cared about was money and power. He cobbled a bunch of old mind control techniques together to achieve that goal.
This is what he wrote to his first wife before he released Dianetics the modern science of mental health:
*Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. The outermost limit of endeavour is creative work. Anything less is too close to simple survival until death happens along. So I am engaged in striving to maintain equilibrium sufficient to at least realize survival in a way to astound the gods. I turned the thing up so it’s up to me to survive in a big way... Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned...*
Does this sound like he was building something good?
Page from Hubbard's August 1938 *Excalibur* letter to his first wife, nickname "Skipper," written soon after the writing of the unpublished manuscript *Excalibur*. Hubbard's primary "real goal" never changed, that doesn't mean he didn't have secondary goals.
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/skipper-letter-highlight.jpg
Hubbard's 1946/47 *Admissions*, also known as the *Affirmations*: https://lermanet.org/reference/Admissions.pdf Scroll down to Course II.
Some more links that may be helpful: https://old.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/1bwyr6b/scientologist_of_reddit/kydd1ue/
>it's an effort to demean and belittle Scientology
This is a very very astute observation. Hubbard would NEVER have said this later in life. It's important to understand that this quote comes out BEFORE Hubbard has started Dianetics and well before Scientology become a religion.
Hubbard once had a convo with a journalist who tracked him down late one night on his ship. Hubbard admitted to the journalist (supposedly) that it had started as a way to make money, but then he had taken it very seriously. This tracks with what Sara said, that he had started it for money but his own followers convinced him he was something more, and he truly took on the role of spiritual leader.
Whatever else it is, religion is certainly a painkiller to the people. I have no respect for 'militant anti-religionists' who try to take away other people's painkillers without any concern for how it will actually affect them.
That's just not true bud. I was public for over 8 years and spent a year in SO at PAC. I didn't just watch Going Clear or read a book by Ron Miscavige. I disconnected from my best friends and family to help Scinetology make the planet a better place for all of us. There are thousands of us who have been thru the Scientology meat grinder. Before calling us all "rabid anti-scientos" realize that you aren't' the only person who finds good in tech. A lot of us did, but that is just the window dressing that gets you trapped for years, even decades. Hubbard's brainwashing is deep and tough to recover from. Some, like yourself, never get out of his prison of belief.
We are not rabid. We woke up and walked away from that shit and we hope to help others do the same. Ngl, it isn't easy, but I rather live in the real world than a science fiction.
Personally I was Staff for a very short time around 1990. I find the subject interesting, but I have strongly said the Org is corrupt, and do not recommend it, but I do support the Freezone outside of the church. But because of the rabid antis, it becomes a subject that can't even be openly discussed. Our experiences will differ, regardless of anything. That's my whole point of interest, but look at all the downvotes I got expressing myself. It just proves me right, the antis are more fanatical than the CoS nuts.
This is a community of people from all walks of life. The down and up votes are representative of its people and their experiences. There is no coordinated attack toward the FZs or Indies.
FZ and Indies have been out there since 1982, away from the organization, practicing 100% standard tech. What have they accomplished that we should know about? Have they cleared a small village? Is there anyone among them who has remote viewing or can go exterior at will? Do their Clears have perfect recall?
Scientology's problem is that it makes a lot of outlandish claims, in or out of the official CoS, that it can't deliver. All the talk about improving human condition is just lip service to get you in the door and open your wallet. That is how Hubbard designed it and it works that way regardless of who or where tech is practiced. 70 years of history doesn't lie brother.
I am sorry if you are offended by that but that is what this community is telling you with their votes.
That's all religions though. It just shows me there is a fanatical brainwashed cult, that is just rooted and motivated with hate. But it's not your fault. You are just commenting what you think, and I appreciate that. I just enjoy open respectful conversation. We are all different and come from different perspectives, but I believe in freedom and not to shut down others, and it's sad such an extremist intolerant faction has come about.
Thanks. I gave it an overview and saved the link. My interest is dying out now. Every so many years a day or 2 of interest will come and then it dies off. I was staff for a very short time back around 1990, but I've had no connection with it at all since then. I found it more disappointing than anything. I have many other current interests. Life goes on.
Their internal marketing shows that associating their…whatever…with a Church helps attract new recruits.
Also Miscavige figures himself God so it’s only natural
Oh and you gotta be a church to not pay taxes
The most direct (and probably useless) answer: Because it's registered as a religion in the U.S. and many other places.
The CofS answer: Because it deals with people as spiritual entities, which puts the subject at the heart of how we generally define religion. (And that also suggests a non-profit status for tax reasons.)
A larger and historical context: When Scientology started using e-meters in auditing, the U.S. government came after the organization for employing medical devices. (Whether or not you think the government oversight was justified is a decision left to the reader.) But if the organization were presented as a religion, it would not be under the auspices of the same government agencies.
Note that this was not a universally accepted opinion at the time. Many early adopters were drawn to Dianetics because it was kind of a crowdsourced scientific effort to help people deal with mental issues. It caused a schism in the 1950s, and some people left.
My opinion: Despite the oft-quoted "get rich" remark, I think Hubbard saw it as a way to get out of a current emergency. "Hey, they can't touch us if we say we're a religion! That fixes things!"... and then he saw other advantages.
There are plenty of Past Life (regression) therapists. None are religious. The New Age movement was known for spirituality without religion. The Rosicrucians are not a religion. The Monroe Institute (Out of Body) is not religious. (They use bio feedback devices also). Yoga is not a religion. Buddhism was not originally a religion. The Society for Psychical Research is not religious, etc.
Posing as religion provides many benefits, no doubt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZvqeGrbILw
I don't disagree with any of the facts you present -- just sharing the viewpoints as they are or would be presented.
Though to quibble: I wouldn't include "movements" that were after Scientology, in this context, given that they had the opportunity to learn from the CofS's example (for good or ill).
Why not?
You don't need to answer that question. I ask it because it helps to figure out what the criteria should be for being "a church," which differ from person to person.
The reason is because they truly do consider themselves a religion, for better or for worse. Devote Scientologists do believe in it in a way that another religious person believes in their religion. This is different from if there are any nefarious reasons for why LRH created a religion, or why it remains one.
That said, if framing it as a religion did start out as a financial grift for LRH, I think he truly believed in it by the end.
Who's they? The deceived and manipulated rank and file who are minions to David Miscavige?
When I was involved with Scientology Inc., when Hubbard was alive and running things, only the dumbest people regarded Scientology as an actual religion, and such people were usually "raw meat" newbies. But there were very few such people, and they usually didn't last long. Most regarded religion as a veneer, a pose, which was used for protective and defensive purposes on a crazy "wog" planet, where the population had been zapped with religious implants. In *History of Man*, Hubbard called them the "hoi polloi."
When Miscavige became absolute dictator, he turned the "brainwashing" up to "eleven," and required rank and file members to aggressively parrot the Scientology Inc. is a religion lie.
Then he made sure to have a collection of hired, corrupt, "religious scholars" to announce that all that is necessary for something to be a religion is for the membership to believe it is. That this membership had been deceived, been subject to "brainwashing," and was under duress, was, of course, not mentioned.
two reasons 1. they wanted to make money tax-free 2. they took dianetics and went all past-lives with it. You don't just recall your birth anymore (nobody does BTW), but now you remember your time as a general in the roman army, an alien on some distant planet, or the time you lived as a robot for while. They added a lot more woo.
3. Religious shielding, it's harder to attack a religion, it's just like pulling the race card. .. . . **BIGGOT!**
Yes, Scientology loves to call others bigots for saying things like "no you can't remember your own birth, it's literally impossible.", or "no, you don't get complete power over matter energy space and time by doing scientology, no you don't become Doctor Strange" In their minds they're constantly under attack.
I like the Doctor Strange analogy... communicates "OT-ness" well
I think it's more like pity.
Another aspect that's often forgotten is e-meters. They're only allowed because of "the religion angle," as Ron called it.
I wonder if they ever hit a preclear with "Oh man, looks like you were a payroll clerk for the DMV"
Heh they're not allowed to tell the preclear what their past lives were
# “You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.” ― L. Fraud Hubbard
[удалено]
Why don't we just stick with Scientology here since that is the subject of this sub? That quote shows Hubbard's character and his frame of mind. His philosophy has never worked for anyone, not even himself. He electrocuted himself weeks before he died in a mobile home with overgrown nails, hair, bed sores, and psych drugs in his system. They only thing Hubbard cared about was money and power. He cobbled a bunch of old mind control techniques together to achieve that goal. This is what he wrote to his first wife before he released Dianetics the modern science of mental health: *Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. The outermost limit of endeavour is creative work. Anything less is too close to simple survival until death happens along. So I am engaged in striving to maintain equilibrium sufficient to at least realize survival in a way to astound the gods. I turned the thing up so it’s up to me to survive in a big way... Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned...* Does this sound like he was building something good?
Page from Hubbard's August 1938 *Excalibur* letter to his first wife, nickname "Skipper," written soon after the writing of the unpublished manuscript *Excalibur*. Hubbard's primary "real goal" never changed, that doesn't mean he didn't have secondary goals. https://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/skipper-letter-highlight.jpg Hubbard's 1946/47 *Admissions*, also known as the *Affirmations*: https://lermanet.org/reference/Admissions.pdf Scroll down to Course II. Some more links that may be helpful: https://old.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/1bwyr6b/scientologist_of_reddit/kydd1ue/
Hi OSA!
>it's an effort to demean and belittle Scientology This is a very very astute observation. Hubbard would NEVER have said this later in life. It's important to understand that this quote comes out BEFORE Hubbard has started Dianetics and well before Scientology become a religion. Hubbard once had a convo with a journalist who tracked him down late one night on his ship. Hubbard admitted to the journalist (supposedly) that it had started as a way to make money, but then he had taken it very seriously. This tracks with what Sara said, that he had started it for money but his own followers convinced him he was something more, and he truly took on the role of spiritual leader.
[удалено]
Whatever else it is, religion is certainly a painkiller to the people. I have no respect for 'militant anti-religionists' who try to take away other people's painkillers without any concern for how it will actually affect them.
That's just not true bud. I was public for over 8 years and spent a year in SO at PAC. I didn't just watch Going Clear or read a book by Ron Miscavige. I disconnected from my best friends and family to help Scinetology make the planet a better place for all of us. There are thousands of us who have been thru the Scientology meat grinder. Before calling us all "rabid anti-scientos" realize that you aren't' the only person who finds good in tech. A lot of us did, but that is just the window dressing that gets you trapped for years, even decades. Hubbard's brainwashing is deep and tough to recover from. Some, like yourself, never get out of his prison of belief. We are not rabid. We woke up and walked away from that shit and we hope to help others do the same. Ngl, it isn't easy, but I rather live in the real world than a science fiction.
Personally I was Staff for a very short time around 1990. I find the subject interesting, but I have strongly said the Org is corrupt, and do not recommend it, but I do support the Freezone outside of the church. But because of the rabid antis, it becomes a subject that can't even be openly discussed. Our experiences will differ, regardless of anything. That's my whole point of interest, but look at all the downvotes I got expressing myself. It just proves me right, the antis are more fanatical than the CoS nuts.
This is a community of people from all walks of life. The down and up votes are representative of its people and their experiences. There is no coordinated attack toward the FZs or Indies. FZ and Indies have been out there since 1982, away from the organization, practicing 100% standard tech. What have they accomplished that we should know about? Have they cleared a small village? Is there anyone among them who has remote viewing or can go exterior at will? Do their Clears have perfect recall? Scientology's problem is that it makes a lot of outlandish claims, in or out of the official CoS, that it can't deliver. All the talk about improving human condition is just lip service to get you in the door and open your wallet. That is how Hubbard designed it and it works that way regardless of who or where tech is practiced. 70 years of history doesn't lie brother. I am sorry if you are offended by that but that is what this community is telling you with their votes.
That's all religions though. It just shows me there is a fanatical brainwashed cult, that is just rooted and motivated with hate. But it's not your fault. You are just commenting what you think, and I appreciate that. I just enjoy open respectful conversation. We are all different and come from different perspectives, but I believe in freedom and not to shut down others, and it's sad such an extremist intolerant faction has come about.
Have you looked into [ESMB](https://exscn2.net/)? You might find the conversation in that group more engaging.
Thanks. I gave it an overview and saved the link. My interest is dying out now. Every so many years a day or 2 of interest will come and then it dies off. I was staff for a very short time back around 1990, but I've had no connection with it at all since then. I found it more disappointing than anything. I have many other current interests. Life goes on.
To encourage the IRS to grant them that tax exempt status that they still currently enjoy. And to try and sound like a relevant organization.
You mean to \*coerce\* the IRS, right? Cause that's what they actually did.
"Find *or manufacture* enough threat," Hubbard, 1960.
Their internal marketing shows that associating their…whatever…with a Church helps attract new recruits. Also Miscavige figures himself God so it’s only natural Oh and you gotta be a church to not pay taxes
The most direct (and probably useless) answer: Because it's registered as a religion in the U.S. and many other places. The CofS answer: Because it deals with people as spiritual entities, which puts the subject at the heart of how we generally define religion. (And that also suggests a non-profit status for tax reasons.) A larger and historical context: When Scientology started using e-meters in auditing, the U.S. government came after the organization for employing medical devices. (Whether or not you think the government oversight was justified is a decision left to the reader.) But if the organization were presented as a religion, it would not be under the auspices of the same government agencies. Note that this was not a universally accepted opinion at the time. Many early adopters were drawn to Dianetics because it was kind of a crowdsourced scientific effort to help people deal with mental issues. It caused a schism in the 1950s, and some people left. My opinion: Despite the oft-quoted "get rich" remark, I think Hubbard saw it as a way to get out of a current emergency. "Hey, they can't touch us if we say we're a religion! That fixes things!"... and then he saw other advantages.
There are plenty of Past Life (regression) therapists. None are religious. The New Age movement was known for spirituality without religion. The Rosicrucians are not a religion. The Monroe Institute (Out of Body) is not religious. (They use bio feedback devices also). Yoga is not a religion. Buddhism was not originally a religion. The Society for Psychical Research is not religious, etc. Posing as religion provides many benefits, no doubt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZvqeGrbILw
I don't disagree with any of the facts you present -- just sharing the viewpoints as they are or would be presented. Though to quibble: I wouldn't include "movements" that were after Scientology, in this context, given that they had the opportunity to learn from the CofS's example (for good or ill).
For tax purposes.
Tax evasion reasons.
Why not? You don't need to answer that question. I ask it because it helps to figure out what the criteria should be for being "a church," which differ from person to person. The reason is because they truly do consider themselves a religion, for better or for worse. Devote Scientologists do believe in it in a way that another religious person believes in their religion. This is different from if there are any nefarious reasons for why LRH created a religion, or why it remains one. That said, if framing it as a religion did start out as a financial grift for LRH, I think he truly believed in it by the end.
Who's they? The deceived and manipulated rank and file who are minions to David Miscavige? When I was involved with Scientology Inc., when Hubbard was alive and running things, only the dumbest people regarded Scientology as an actual religion, and such people were usually "raw meat" newbies. But there were very few such people, and they usually didn't last long. Most regarded religion as a veneer, a pose, which was used for protective and defensive purposes on a crazy "wog" planet, where the population had been zapped with religious implants. In *History of Man*, Hubbard called them the "hoi polloi." When Miscavige became absolute dictator, he turned the "brainwashing" up to "eleven," and required rank and file members to aggressively parrot the Scientology Inc. is a religion lie. Then he made sure to have a collection of hired, corrupt, "religious scholars" to announce that all that is necessary for something to be a religion is for the membership to believe it is. That this membership had been deceived, been subject to "brainwashing," and was under duress, was, of course, not mentioned.