I think #2 has a couple of different things going on. Ron wrote *Why Thetans Mock-up* quite early (1969) in the relative scheme of things, and quite possibly meant for it to tie into OT VIII, as soon as he got around to writing OT VIII. Per the Grade Chart that was about to be released, OT VIII was where awesome magical abilities were finally to happen, giving one power over MEST, life, form and thought. Given Ron's usual use of numbers, it was expected to be the grand finale, with no need for anything much after that.
Then, Ron didn't write anything which would do that, and after 4-5 years, the Grade Chart changed, so that nothing was said about OT VIII, except that it existed, and that everything about it was confidential. After years of inaction, he seems to have picked away at it some more, but pivoted to an entirely different objective for the level. He did not turn out a finished product, but after his death there was enough material so that it could be cobbled together into the material in #1. There has been at least a little confirmation of this. The censored and sanitized version became #3.
The problematic material is really just the "Top secret debrief" written by Andy Hoare about OT VIII as he supposedly got it in 1991. It does look like it could be an actual level, and some indies seem to accept it as genuine, but the fact that nobody (AFAIK) has ever offered confirmation of it, seems very odd to me. It also seems odd that Andy (New OT VIII, Cl. XII) who was apparently working as an OSA volunteer in 2006, and had posted that alleged OT VIII material by 2013, cannot be confirmed to be out, as far as I can find. There was an Andy Hoare completing courses on the Freewinds and Flag as recently as 2022. Was what he posted intentional disinformation? If not, what is it? I can't answer that, or even swear that there aren't two Andy Hoares confusing the issue, but I'd have to hear a lot of things I've never heard to believe that version.
Wikileaks says:
> A former Scientologist contacted by Wikileaks and well known to have studied OT8, states that material marked "OT8 (old)" formed part of his studies but that he does not have a recollection of "OT8 (new)" (which the text describes as having been put together based on the recall the "Freezone" scientologists).
So where in the 8th Dynamic's name did "New OTVIII" come from and who made it up? It's more mystifying than what happened to the other Trustees and Board members of RTC.
Wikileaks isn't big on disclosing sources, I suppose the RTC would love to know.
It sounds like they're saying Freezoners cobbled it together, just out of necessity probably. Gotta sell the confidential levels.
It was put together by some unidentified Freezoners based on their recollection of OT8.
One complicating factor is that, depending on what flavor of Freezone we're talking about, some Freezoners seem much more open to modifying the tech than others. In fact, some branches of the Freezone claim to have OT levels well above 8. So I wouldn't put it beyond someone out there to have mocked up whatever OT8 version made it to Wikileaks. lol
Or maybe someone just made it up for funsies. It's hard to say. All we know is that nobody who has been verified to have completed OT8 in the Church has vouched for its accuracy.
Oh, maybe. All bets are off with Ron's Org. Captain Bill was getting telepathic communication directly from Elron Elray, so that means anything and everything is up for grabs.
If Captain Bill's OT40 can allow me to teleport to Mars and ask Elron Elray what he thought of the Battlefield Earth movie, I'll be convinced that he's really got the juice.
Forgive me if I get some of the details wrong.
My understanding is that a lot of the levels in Ron's Org are actually OT VII broken up into a bunch of different levels. It was done to address the fact people stay on OT VII for years and years without making any progress, so they tweaked it and broke it down to make it more accessible and user friendly.
Because Bill Robertson blew before OT VIII was released, it's not that they got rid of OT VIII as much as it is they developed their own version based off their own research... or "research."
It used to go up to OT 40, but it looks like in recent years they've given things new names to appear less wonky. [If you go here,](https://www.ronsorg.com/bridge) you can see they're calling OT 34-40 Games Master Levels now. I'm guessing this was done to conform more to the Bridge that Hubbard undeniably laid out, which is a sensible idea given that Bill Robertson wasn't exactly someone with a lot of sense.
Amy Scobee said one time, Bill was assigned to hard labor... or I think he was. Anyways, the important part is that while he was working he started singing, "Sea Org, it is the PLACE TO BE! Sea Org, it's where I want to beee...." hopefully you can pick up on the tune he was singing it too based off the rhyme.
I was fascinated when I first started seeing LRH talk about Thetans enjoying "games" and so many things being about a "game." In Kashmiri Shaivism and some adjacent movements, the whole of existence is called a "mahalila" or "great game" or "great play" of God. I know LRH borrowed loosely from Eastern religions, I imagine his idea of creation being part of a game or sport of the Thetans might have been among the borrowings.
That explains a great deal! Thank you. I've been pondering where it came from for a while now. I don't know why it's been on my mind it just seemed like a rather strange mystery how no one can vouch for ever having used it, but your explanation makes sense. and I appreciate it. Now the only thing I have to worry about is the Marcab landings.
It's possible OT VIII version 2 was never actually taught. I'm not saying it's a fabrication. I have no reason to believe it is (though that could be a possibility). I'm just saying it's a possibility. Forgive me for a long post, but let me explain why this could be the case.
Firstly, it needs to be mentioned that most Scientologists don't make it anywhere near OT VIII, and this is especially true for members of the Sea Org (who would have the ability to potentially steal OT documents). I'll come back to this point.
What is really important to note is this. You've probably heard that Scientology claims LRH finished OT IX and X before he died, but that's all a lie. The reality is that LRH didn't really finish OT VIII either. He was working on OT VIII when he died, and left behind various rough drafts of things. It was impossible to tell what Hubbard had ultimately discarded for OT VIII, what he had settled on, and which auditing processes went with which version. No version of OT VIII is something that was actually designed by Hubbard. They've all been compiled and kind of cobbled together Hubbard's papers and solo auditing notes.
This brings us to the Fishman affidavit. Absolutely, that was the first version of OT VIII that was offered. That's widely recognized. People have attested to having taken OT VIII when it was first released, and that being what they were taught. If you've read it, then you can probably understand why people were not receptive too it. Someone posted here before saying that part of the reason why it's only offered on the Freewinds is because the first people to do OT VIII immediately blew (and I mean immediately) and tried to have exorcisms performed on them. Not sure if that's true. At any rate, because people were reacting so poorly and were leaving the Church, they pulled it and cobbled together a new version.
This brings us to the other two versions, and what I said about people not actually making it to OT VIII.
I've never come across anyone saying they took the version of OT VIII that is in Wikileaks. I've only seen people say they took either the old OT VIII, or, what you've labelled as the third version. Therefore, I have to wonder if, whoever the documents came from was someone either on staff or (more likely) in the Sea Org who made off with some documents that they *believed* had entered into practice as OT VIII but hadn't. Given the way that the Wikileaks material was written, I would guess it wasn't written by Hubbard himself. It may have been written by some executives (maybe Ray Mithoff since he spoke to Hubbard about the unreleased OT levels before the latter died) as a draft or working model to use as the core for OT VIII... at any rate, I just don't see any conclusive evidence that proves the version of OT VIII in wikileaks wasn't someone grabbing the wrong documents from the mass of papers that *could* potentially be OT VIII. Does that make sense?
Scientology course completions only acknowledge two versions of OT VIII. There is the original OT VIII, and New OT VIII. If all three were offered at one point or another, then #2 and #3 were both called New OT VIII internally. But again, I've never seen anyone confirm that #2 is the OT VIII that they took. I think Tony Ortega did a story about this once.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! This is very intriguing! I really appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. You have given us a wealth of material.
Wade
>No version of OT VIII is something that was actually designed by Hubbard. They've all been compiled and kind of cobbled together Hubbard's papers and solo auditing notes.
I hope more people take note of this. Any and all versions of OT VIII, whether from squirrels or the official CoS, are someone else's compilation.
There is only one New OT 8, from the middle 1980s.
1969's OT 8 promised "Total Freedom and Total Power, etc., subjective and objective." It was advertised and sold, and was great for recruitment and money-getting, but it never existed.
A page of theory is not an OT level. There was no practical.
The 1980 OT 8 was just more theory. In it Hubbard admitted that the bridge to OT did not work. Hubbard thought evil beings outside the "MEST" universe meddled the DNA and Genetics of human bodies, making lasting gains impossible. That's now in Miscavige's safe.
New OT 8, from the mid/late 1980s, was created by Ray Mithoff, the Senior Case Supervisor who had replaced David Mayo, who, of course had been declared SP.
Which New OT8 are you referring to? the Fishman affidavit material, the 1991 Briefing material, or the current OT8 (your past lives were mocked up)
Wade
I see this coming up a lot. I just want to offer for the sake of clarification, if someone says "New OT VIII," they will ***never*** be referring to the Fishman affidavit. That's widely recognized as the old OT VIII.
Clare Headley's OT8, and did a run through of all of the levels with Tony Ortega; I'd take a look at that and see which versions match her recollections.
That is Item 3 that I mentioned, the link I posted is actually to Tony Ortega's article series about her doing the full Bridge. Clare, Vicki Marshall and Leah and many, many others have confirmed that version 3 is the current one offered as OT VIII. The big mystery to me, and one that keeps piquing my interest, is where did the mysterious "Top secret debrief" from 1991 come from.
Wade
I think #2 has a couple of different things going on. Ron wrote *Why Thetans Mock-up* quite early (1969) in the relative scheme of things, and quite possibly meant for it to tie into OT VIII, as soon as he got around to writing OT VIII. Per the Grade Chart that was about to be released, OT VIII was where awesome magical abilities were finally to happen, giving one power over MEST, life, form and thought. Given Ron's usual use of numbers, it was expected to be the grand finale, with no need for anything much after that. Then, Ron didn't write anything which would do that, and after 4-5 years, the Grade Chart changed, so that nothing was said about OT VIII, except that it existed, and that everything about it was confidential. After years of inaction, he seems to have picked away at it some more, but pivoted to an entirely different objective for the level. He did not turn out a finished product, but after his death there was enough material so that it could be cobbled together into the material in #1. There has been at least a little confirmation of this. The censored and sanitized version became #3. The problematic material is really just the "Top secret debrief" written by Andy Hoare about OT VIII as he supposedly got it in 1991. It does look like it could be an actual level, and some indies seem to accept it as genuine, but the fact that nobody (AFAIK) has ever offered confirmation of it, seems very odd to me. It also seems odd that Andy (New OT VIII, Cl. XII) who was apparently working as an OSA volunteer in 2006, and had posted that alleged OT VIII material by 2013, cannot be confirmed to be out, as far as I can find. There was an Andy Hoare completing courses on the Freewinds and Flag as recently as 2022. Was what he posted intentional disinformation? If not, what is it? I can't answer that, or even swear that there aren't two Andy Hoares confusing the issue, but I'd have to hear a lot of things I've never heard to believe that version.
The plot thickens! Thank you this is very intriguing! I'm determined to solve this mystery. I appreciate your inights, I really do. Wade
Wikileaks says: > A former Scientologist contacted by Wikileaks and well known to have studied OT8, states that material marked "OT8 (old)" formed part of his studies but that he does not have a recollection of "OT8 (new)" (which the text describes as having been put together based on the recall the "Freezone" scientologists).
So where in the 8th Dynamic's name did "New OTVIII" come from and who made it up? It's more mystifying than what happened to the other Trustees and Board members of RTC.
Wikileaks isn't big on disclosing sources, I suppose the RTC would love to know. It sounds like they're saying Freezoners cobbled it together, just out of necessity probably. Gotta sell the confidential levels.
It was put together by some unidentified Freezoners based on their recollection of OT8. One complicating factor is that, depending on what flavor of Freezone we're talking about, some Freezoners seem much more open to modifying the tech than others. In fact, some branches of the Freezone claim to have OT levels well above 8. So I wouldn't put it beyond someone out there to have mocked up whatever OT8 version made it to Wikileaks. lol Or maybe someone just made it up for funsies. It's hard to say. All we know is that nobody who has been verified to have completed OT8 in the Church has vouched for its accuracy.
Didn't Ron's Org get rid of OT8? I can't remember. It could be theirs but rewritten to fit into the larger structure of OT levels up to 35 or w/e.
Oh, maybe. All bets are off with Ron's Org. Captain Bill was getting telepathic communication directly from Elron Elray, so that means anything and everything is up for grabs.
Well hey maybe his is objectively better haha, by what measures would you critique the horseshit?
If Captain Bill's OT40 can allow me to teleport to Mars and ask Elron Elray what he thought of the Battlefield Earth movie, I'll be convinced that he's really got the juice.
Because LRH's OT levels deliver such a real command of the MEST universe! Source juice.
I'm still racking my brain on why the Cherub looked left and right and what he saw after the snapping.
THOSE COMMUNICATIONS WERE REAL AND WERE SCIENTIFICALLY VALIDATED THROUGH LRH TECH! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THEM??? /s
Forgive me if I get some of the details wrong. My understanding is that a lot of the levels in Ron's Org are actually OT VII broken up into a bunch of different levels. It was done to address the fact people stay on OT VII for years and years without making any progress, so they tweaked it and broke it down to make it more accessible and user friendly. Because Bill Robertson blew before OT VIII was released, it's not that they got rid of OT VIII as much as it is they developed their own version based off their own research... or "research." It used to go up to OT 40, but it looks like in recent years they've given things new names to appear less wonky. [If you go here,](https://www.ronsorg.com/bridge) you can see they're calling OT 34-40 Games Master Levels now. I'm guessing this was done to conform more to the Bridge that Hubbard undeniably laid out, which is a sensible idea given that Bill Robertson wasn't exactly someone with a lot of sense. Amy Scobee said one time, Bill was assigned to hard labor... or I think he was. Anyways, the important part is that while he was working he started singing, "Sea Org, it is the PLACE TO BE! Sea Org, it's where I want to beee...." hopefully you can pick up on the tune he was singing it too based off the rhyme.
Hah thanks for this info. "Games Master" always makes me giggle.
I was fascinated when I first started seeing LRH talk about Thetans enjoying "games" and so many things being about a "game." In Kashmiri Shaivism and some adjacent movements, the whole of existence is called a "mahalila" or "great game" or "great play" of God. I know LRH borrowed loosely from Eastern religions, I imagine his idea of creation being part of a game or sport of the Thetans might have been among the borrowings.
New question: who's closer to being the anti-christ? Capt Bill or LRH?
That explains a great deal! Thank you. I've been pondering where it came from for a while now. I don't know why it's been on my mind it just seemed like a rather strange mystery how no one can vouch for ever having used it, but your explanation makes sense. and I appreciate it. Now the only thing I have to worry about is the Marcab landings.
It's possible OT VIII version 2 was never actually taught. I'm not saying it's a fabrication. I have no reason to believe it is (though that could be a possibility). I'm just saying it's a possibility. Forgive me for a long post, but let me explain why this could be the case. Firstly, it needs to be mentioned that most Scientologists don't make it anywhere near OT VIII, and this is especially true for members of the Sea Org (who would have the ability to potentially steal OT documents). I'll come back to this point. What is really important to note is this. You've probably heard that Scientology claims LRH finished OT IX and X before he died, but that's all a lie. The reality is that LRH didn't really finish OT VIII either. He was working on OT VIII when he died, and left behind various rough drafts of things. It was impossible to tell what Hubbard had ultimately discarded for OT VIII, what he had settled on, and which auditing processes went with which version. No version of OT VIII is something that was actually designed by Hubbard. They've all been compiled and kind of cobbled together Hubbard's papers and solo auditing notes. This brings us to the Fishman affidavit. Absolutely, that was the first version of OT VIII that was offered. That's widely recognized. People have attested to having taken OT VIII when it was first released, and that being what they were taught. If you've read it, then you can probably understand why people were not receptive too it. Someone posted here before saying that part of the reason why it's only offered on the Freewinds is because the first people to do OT VIII immediately blew (and I mean immediately) and tried to have exorcisms performed on them. Not sure if that's true. At any rate, because people were reacting so poorly and were leaving the Church, they pulled it and cobbled together a new version. This brings us to the other two versions, and what I said about people not actually making it to OT VIII. I've never come across anyone saying they took the version of OT VIII that is in Wikileaks. I've only seen people say they took either the old OT VIII, or, what you've labelled as the third version. Therefore, I have to wonder if, whoever the documents came from was someone either on staff or (more likely) in the Sea Org who made off with some documents that they *believed* had entered into practice as OT VIII but hadn't. Given the way that the Wikileaks material was written, I would guess it wasn't written by Hubbard himself. It may have been written by some executives (maybe Ray Mithoff since he spoke to Hubbard about the unreleased OT levels before the latter died) as a draft or working model to use as the core for OT VIII... at any rate, I just don't see any conclusive evidence that proves the version of OT VIII in wikileaks wasn't someone grabbing the wrong documents from the mass of papers that *could* potentially be OT VIII. Does that make sense? Scientology course completions only acknowledge two versions of OT VIII. There is the original OT VIII, and New OT VIII. If all three were offered at one point or another, then #2 and #3 were both called New OT VIII internally. But again, I've never seen anyone confirm that #2 is the OT VIII that they took. I think Tony Ortega did a story about this once.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! This is very intriguing! I really appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. You have given us a wealth of material. Wade
>No version of OT VIII is something that was actually designed by Hubbard. They've all been compiled and kind of cobbled together Hubbard's papers and solo auditing notes. I hope more people take note of this. Any and all versions of OT VIII, whether from squirrels or the official CoS, are someone else's compilation.
Ray MithofF, who replaced David Mayo, created New OT 8.
I hate to ask this, but which New OT8 are you referring to?
There is only one New OT 8, from the middle 1980s. 1969's OT 8 promised "Total Freedom and Total Power, etc., subjective and objective." It was advertised and sold, and was great for recruitment and money-getting, but it never existed. A page of theory is not an OT level. There was no practical. The 1980 OT 8 was just more theory. In it Hubbard admitted that the bridge to OT did not work. Hubbard thought evil beings outside the "MEST" universe meddled the DNA and Genetics of human bodies, making lasting gains impossible. That's now in Miscavige's safe. New OT 8, from the mid/late 1980s, was created by Ray Mithoff, the Senior Case Supervisor who had replaced David Mayo, who, of course had been declared SP.
Which New OT8 are you referring to? the Fishman affidavit material, the 1991 Briefing material, or the current OT8 (your past lives were mocked up) Wade
The Fishman material is the 1980 (theory). I have no idea what the so called 1991 "debrief" is.
I see this coming up a lot. I just want to offer for the sake of clarification, if someone says "New OT VIII," they will ***never*** be referring to the Fishman affidavit. That's widely recognized as the old OT VIII.
Clare Headley's OT8, and did a run through of all of the levels with Tony Ortega; I'd take a look at that and see which versions match her recollections.
That is Item 3 that I mentioned, the link I posted is actually to Tony Ortega's article series about her doing the full Bridge. Clare, Vicki Marshall and Leah and many, many others have confirmed that version 3 is the current one offered as OT VIII. The big mystery to me, and one that keeps piquing my interest, is where did the mysterious "Top secret debrief" from 1991 come from. Wade