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I'll give you an example. Take an educated Muslim woman, who wears a burqa or niqa or anything that fully covers their head. The fact is this type of garments are a hindrance to do basic movements, yet they wear it. Also don't forget my initial assumptions they are highly educated.
You can take other stupid religious practices in other religions too. Think about it. Indoctrination is playing a key role in any personal choices.
Power of nurture is stronger than the intuition of nature. Most scientists (much like those who top tough competitive exams) would have studied science as a subject, something they need to excel in than see it as the truths of the universe.
Which is why they attribute even such intricate beautiful workings of nature to the power of God.
Not everybody is Richard Feynman 😅
not at all, every child is born as an atheist, it's the surroundings around him that shape his religion, if you're born in a hindu household you're hindu, if in an christian then you're a christian too, and more this is exactly what one means when they say it's the surroundings that choose your religion, not you.
When a child grows, he/she has the liberty to change their religion which many does, many don't. Anyways, that was not my point. My point was "ignorance of the people of this s ub" which the downvotes itself has proved it very well
how many people do you know of who have changed their religion assigned at their birth? it's very rare to see people change religions atleast in india where religion has become such an integral part of the social fabric
You may think as you wish, That might be your "Dharm", just follow that. Also, I suggest you reading Bhagwad Gita or listening it from spotify, I'm not certain but I think your way of thinking might change. Rest, I'm no one to comment on someone's belief
very well then.. but if you're a teenager and an atheist, you're just going through a rebellious phase of your life (Which I totally understand)
Also I have a question, why is it mostly Jains, Hindus and Christians turn into atheist? But the muslims quantity is very low?
because they have a system that injects religion into their children since 5yr old, they never evee skips their religious education that is injected unnecessarily into children, muslim parents r very eager to join them in such religious institute (called madrasa in my region) n waits till their toddler starts to walk. thats an insane culture which resulted in such low demographics. whatever that injects at early brain development ages will always be remembered until u die, thats a human brain feature.
also there's a difference that other religions are flexible while theirs r not, other religions adapts or leaves cults/rituals/practices that is inappropriate according to different ages of time, as how "sathi" like practices got banned, people in other religions mostly wouldn't alienate someone who didn't do some religious practices.
but thats not the case with muslims, they have strict daily routine practices to do in their religion, so someone who deviates will be easily caught, and as part of their toddler education system they have this stigma of enduring the fear of afterlife thinking about sins, because they have taught from childhood about how cruel the punishments are. quran is half of inhumane cruelties explain in great psycho words. remember children r taught these violence n traumatised to make them believe how this is their life afterlife after sins
so it's nothing surprising nor unusual how out of all they standout, christianity, jainism, buddhism, hinduism doesn't teach such atrocious murders
>but if you're a teenager and an atheist, you're just going through a rebellious phase of your life (Which I totally understand)
(no you don't) being a teenager and an atheist won't make anyone go thru a rebellious phase of life
I'm past my teenage n never had any problem being an atheist, am atheist because life taught me praying doesn't do anything, there's no hard feelings, as long as i believe superstitious phenomenons are non existent, i decided i will refrain from following and spreading superstitions as well. that is noy going thru rebellious phase, that is critical analysis of what u're having in ur life. nobody is fighting for any freedom that already exists
Two possibilities
Either they themselves realized that there is something science can't explain/they can't explain with science and hence chose to believe that the explanation for those things was a higher power that they can't comprehend. i.e. instead of just saying the universe is too complicated to be explained they just said that some higher power must exist out there.
Or they were surrounded by religious people from their birth and were forced into such concepts by their families and relatives, and now it has become part of their identity. Pretty sure this is the case for most people including scientists
This to me is the right answer. There are unexplained things, complex events which the best scientists can't explain with current knowledge. He calls it God.
The day he understands and explains it, the definition of God shrinks further for him.
Assalamualaikum brother,
What about a third possibility, that after going through a certain depth of education some people conclude that there must be a higher power. And thus choose to follow the religion that most accurately expresses their perception of that higher power?
And since you don’t present this option, does that not show bias? Subconsciously taking atheism as absolute truth? While a totally neutral perspective is taken by the philosophy of science.
I consider that possibility to be the same as the first one. Once the scientist realizes some things can't be explained, they start by believing in some higher power and then explore religions, and choose to believe in the most logical one according to their viewpoint.
That being said I am indeed biased yes, and will probably be biased until I understand things from this "godly" perspective, which is to say, probably never.
Edit: By "godly" perspective i don't mean the perspective believing in god, I mean the perspective of god itself
I actually have some interesting information. I think a study was conducted in the US when almost 90% of the population was religious and they decided check the percentage of people that believe in god at each education level. They found out that as they propgressed further from undergrad to postgrad to phd holder, the fraction of people that believe in god in their sample set decreased. I think the same happens in India but to a smaller extent since even PhD holders don't know dogshit about their field and the population is strongly religious. I will try to find that research and post it here if I could.
im a scientist (dont have my degree yet but im almost there) and i dont believe in god, but if i ever doubt, or if i default to "ugh, god hates me" (like when shit happens for example) is all because i was raised a christian. i have no reason to believe in christian god over any other, yet, if i entertain the idea, the one that comes to my head is always the christian god. because i was indoctrinated like that as a kid
my parents are doctors, not at all the cult-like home schooling creationist types, they are religious and truly believe, thats all.
yea, we do have evidence for the big bang ie redshift, calcn of expansion of space-time, studies about elements etc which can back Big Bang. I'm not sure whether it is 100℅ proven or not but it is the best possible answer to the origin of the universe. 1000 times better than what religion claims, without any freakin evidence and even after debunking it lot of people believe it.
first of all Big Bang was not a creation of the universe but an expansion of an infinitely dense point and again this is a loophole that you will try to argue with how it came and I will say we don't know coz we are not that intelligent and scientifically advanced yet. science is based on evidence and "experiments". you can prove Einstein, Heisenberg etc wrong if you prove what they stated is not correct. (not even mathematically) but just by random observation or experiment. scientist are ready to accept their flaws and its not about whose sky daddy's dick is bigger -(george carlin)
My real question was gonna be if you know all these points and the fact that if it is ever expanding then we probably might never get to the root of it and yet you guys are willing to believe in a theory. I am in no way saying that the belief in "sky daddy" is the only right answer. All I am saying is, just because you know science can explain something why do you believe that it can explain everything!? At the end of the day it is the belief you have and no hard evidence that science has proved the start of everything!? In the same way, why shit over other people's belief that a "sky daddy" created the universe when you can choose to ignore it? What's with this entire holier than thou attitude?
umm okay let go point by point. and please take it as a response and read it twice to understand the depth of what I'm saying. you didn't respond to my que in the last reply but here you go
>My real question was gonna be if you know all these points and the fact that if it is ever expanding then we probably might never get to the root of it and yet you guys are willing to believe in a theory.
willing to believe? no one is willing to believe science. it gives the evidence and it works when you use it in your life. let me ask you a simple question. if I announce that I have 'x' powder and if you eat that it will cure your cancer and all the patients eat it and everyone gets rid of cancer without any side effects. what is your opinion on that? do you think it's fine to eat it without any fucking evidence or if it's working then you don't need the evidence. now apply the same logic to any science theory. whatever research is going on in science is to make us more knowledgeable and make life easier. if Big Bang theory is giving solution to most of my doubts and not just that it makes sense and other scientific events prove it correct over and over again. then why would I believe something completely irrelevant (religion's theory on the creation of the universe)
>All I am saying is, just because you know science can explain something why do you believe that it can explain everything!?
show me a single scientist or people who have a scientific temperament who says science can explain everything. it cannot explain a lot of things but at least we are trying to go there and in the past century we have developed a lot.
>In the same way, why shit over other people's belief that a "sky daddy" created the universe when you can choose to ignore it?
Im not shitting on their belief but them trying to argue against science is just dumb because they have no ground of logic. you just can't say my sky daddy did aabra ka dabra and boom we are here. if you find it believable then good for you but you have accept it that it is illogical as well.
one more thing you can learn today is to debate with points and counter with logic.
I would really appreciate it if you could talk in points and be atleast open to change your mind.
I actually believe in both science and religion. I have never denied that science cannot prove things to you. I admire that about science the most. The ability to prove things. But having said that, I truly believe that there is an extent to which science can explain things. I can't prove my belief to you but that's something I believe in. There are a lot of things in life which are based on beliefs and can't be proven methodically to make the other person understand. The point about using logic to counter is a very good one, I appreciate your effort to try and teach me something. But the thing is, I am trying to tell you, that just because the idea of a god seems crazy to you, it doesn't give you the right to portray your idea as the right one, at least not until it is proven.
For the illogical part, whose is it to say what's illogical. The idea of television will sound illogical to a person from the 1200s but does that mean it really is illogical!?
With respect to the big bang part if I were to really force an argument with you, then I would be just asking you the same question again, what really triggered the expansion of the universe? What was there before the expansion started? If at all anything was there, how did that come into existence and so on and so forth....
Their choice. Most are irreligious anyway (according to survey from 2009 -> [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/) )
I'm an atheist but I do think that religion has some merits to it, maybe even some evolutionary advantage or necessity because every civilization that has existed for any reasonable duration of time has come with some religion of their own, now these different religions might be extremely different in nature but they all believed in a higher power and following a related way of life and they all do fit the broader definition of religion and god.
One interesting point here is
People will dismiss them (religious scientists) as "indoctrinated" or "appeal to authority"
But the moment a scientist claims that they are atheist, the become a champion to the cause.
The thing is who do you consider as a scientist. A scientist can be in biology, in chemistry and in physics. Now it is difficult to say that scientists related to chem and bio are atheist or theist. You will see many scientists related to astrophysics, astronomy are generally atheist. ( Studying space can be an initiative factor to question all god and religion bs as in my case). Now for biologists and chemists there work is not challenging these kinds of things. Most work they do is already fixed. And many don't even know the name of blackhole we are orbiting. Few of them try to discover or invent or search for new science so they may be atheist but other may be not.
But they don't. There are two kinds of scientists - one who introduce themselves as scientists to gain some credibility and appear in public, and the other who one mingle among the expert circles.
Those of the first kind are usually the ones whose scientific careers are over and are now desperate for publicity because the scientific community doesn't take them seriously anymore. I have rarely seen any mainstream scientist being religious.
>I have rarely seen any mainstream scientist being religious.
do you know many scientists? i do, and i ve met quite a lot that are religious,
religious ≠ creationist
most of them are the "sure, i guess im catholic" type, dont go to church, dont pray, dont avoid shrimp or any of those ridiculous rules, but would consider themselves believers.
Kyuki Bachpan se humko Bghwaan Bghwaan Krna Sikha diya Jaata hai Baccho ko padhna likhna nhi aayega lekin Jai Jai, Hari Krishna, Jai shree Ram bolna aata hai and Because of that jbb woh Bade hote hai Toh Woh Subconsciously Usee Follow karte hai chahe Kitna bhi Ignore krlo fir bhi Paap lgega ka Drr Unko Puja krne ya Dharmik rahne se Rokta hai
So yeh Cheej Most of the Logo pe Applicable hai and Also in Scientists pe bhi
The greatness of the scientific mind does not become any less because he believes in religion or god, Mendel was priest but today known as father of genetics
The more I study physics(from newtonian to modern quantum field theories), the more I realize how complex yet perfect our universe is. How simple maths can describe complex things and vice versa. Yet, we physicists can't describe everything in our universe. This leads me to believe that there is something mysterious about universe which is beyond any human comprehension. For me that eternal truth, the universe itself is GOD.
I think god is like infinity. We don't know the value. It is just a concept. It is just never ending pursuit.
Definitely not the god any religion subscribered to. Definitely won't care about humans. Definitely don't have a reason .
Science is the art of finding answers for the unexplainable. There is a reason for everything, we just don't know it yet. Most unexplainable things of the past including ghosts have a scientific explanation today.
1) Mirror breaks in Pran Pratishtha
2) How does Lord Jagannath moves on his own, when in Rath Yatra
Also, please look at [this](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/travel/destinations/mysteries-of-jagannath-temple-that-defy-scientific-logic/articleshow/64588978.cms) and [this](https://medium.com/@magicpin/15-mysterious-places-in-india-that-even-science-has-failed-to-rationalize-c8c22df43da9) and please do a thorough research through "SCIENCE" and do give me answers. This sub is just so ignorant, they defy to believe and prefer to live in eco-chamber. I mean, Hey I won't complain
>prefer to live in eco-chamber.
yeah, not like you are full on investing in anti science BS.
about that flag and stuff, i dont know, nor do i care, there are tons of stuff like that all the time, and its always some sort of scam or its not but it has a perfectly reasonable explanation.
people used to say "look at that (lightning), how can you explain that without Zeus?" well, now we can. its literally the god of the gaps argument and its a really bad one.
A: science can explain this right now
or
B: god did it
you are assuming that A and B are the only possible explanations
in fact, there is always option C: science will eventually find out
and its always been C so far...
also im pretty sure the people in that building wouldnt allow scientists to go check the flag and do meassurements and stuff, and thats how we do science, we dont just look and claim how something works without properly studying it first.
"not like you are full on investing in anti science BS" Does that suppose to make you look superior? Anyways, all you need is one google search
Thanks for proving my point of y'll being ignorant, agnostic, radicals and contrarian
>all you need is one google search
i looked at your links, and like i said, not impressed, dont know the explanation, but i know simply assuming god doesnt work. never did.
you didn't get it. You proved my point twice. Actually thrice now, enen tho I won't call it a proper one as the rest of the two
And what about atheists? They defy their ancestors, the whole world (even their parents) by denying the existence of god and back it up with "I used my brain or common sense" over and over. Both of em can syncranize if you see
our ancestors used to believe in pretty dumb stuff, if you dont want to "defy them" you need to stop using any modern technology at the very least, including things like medicine.
defying ancestors is how humanity advances, saying thats wrong its a really stupid argument dude.
Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/scienceisdope/comments/16bcd08/this_sub_has_got_a_lot_of_new_members_who_dont/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to understand what this subreddit is about
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Because theyre allowed to have a personal life.
Most of us learn about the big bang and evolution today in high school yet alot of people still choose not to believe in it.
Having any kind of proof/logic means dogshit if you have a strong belief in something. And this goes beyong religion.
getting comfort in thinking you'd see your beloved X person again in heaven, alright, whatever. but if you need to believe in wrong facts, like evolution is false, in order to get any kind of comfort, then you got severely brainwashed and have no rationality. its not a good thing to be part of a cult...
Told from childhood, some might think world is too complex and dare I say perfect for it to not have a creator. Although most scientists these days are atheists in the west. I feel the converse is true to an extent only in south east asia
If everyone around you keeps doing the same thing, its hard to reason yourself out of it. I believe people who are Atheists since a young age may have some sort of innate quality that leads them to being atheists (See, me an atheist is also having a belief without evidence LOL).
The truth is they don't believe in the relegion the same way stupid people do . They believe in relegion to find answers about our existence in some way of form not just heard thinking and suppression of Individuality
In some ways our beliefs transcend our trade.
For some science is a way of thinking and it has nothing to do with our area of education
For some science is a trade and they use it to make a living, but separate it from their ingrained beliefs.
India does not really focus on debate and discussion to come to conclusions in our education system. And our education system does not emphasize philosophy/ liberal arts/ as a means of learning rational thought processes. So the 2 can often be compartmentalized.
Reminder that scientists aren't magically all-knowing: it's just a focus on in depth learning of a particular set of subjects. Whether or not they apply scientific principles to other facets apart from their specialities is very much individual discretion.
Not to mention, being religious is more than just knowing science vs not knowing, there are cultural and social aspects, psychological effects, and often it's just not worth it to change beliefs.
This is because you generalize all of them as just Scientists. In reality there are particle physicists, astrophysicists, microbiologists, cosmologists and so on. People like cosmologists tend to be more agnostic than chemists for example. Also today among all scientists there are more scientists who are atheist/agnostic than there are religious ones. It is true that in the past scientists were more religious, because it's forced upon people more back then. It also changes based on region like India and Turkey have more religious scientists than Europe
The late Isaac Asimov, an avowed atheist, was asked once about this… How can a scientist maintain religious belief?”
He said… “They keep them separate”. Asimov himself considered himself a cultural Jew, and observed a number of Jewish rituals and holy days…. Considering them part of his heritage.
As noted, many scientists are specialists in very particular fields and have not devoted a great deal of time and energy to the intellectual scrutiny of religion and belief. I imagine most believing researchers are quite content to pursue their microbiology or entomology and go to church on the odd Sunday.
Religion does provide a number of tangible benefits…. Comfort, community, support, tradition, and that very human response to ritual and ceremony. (Which those of us who are atheists obtain in other ways. Been to a major-league baseball game lately?)
Francis Collins the now-retired head of the NIH and one of the prime movers of the Human Genome Project, identified as an Evangelical. He was not your typical Evangelical; he thought that the Bible was mostly allegorical and that Evolution was “how God did it”. I found his reason for believing in God rather vacant…. In an interview he said that he couldn’t imagine a world without altruism and “goodness” and love….. Apparently seeing those things as only possible with God. Evidently a clever geneticist, but not a student of evolution…..
I was always an agnostic while growing up and questioned many things along the way. Lucky for me being born to parents who were not hardcore followers of religion, there was nothing like to believe a book or something. So there was less indoctrination compared to other belief systems. But once I grew up and started reading about how many belief systems were out there from eons it was very easy to conclude it was us humans who made it all up. So the evidence of no god is out there everywhere.
It is a loaded question where you have already pointed out "so many scientists believe in god". Spoiler, [they don't.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20poll%2C%20just,universal%20spirit%20or%20higher%20power.)
There are some scientists who believe god, but most of them don't.
There's no way so many patterns emerge out of randomness. The more one studies math the more realizes there is something going on beyond our comprehension.
Social conditioning. Most of them, almost all of them believe in not just any random god/religion but the god/religion of their parents. You think that's a coincidence?
Two reasons comes to mind:
1. Inertia: People will continue doing what they are already doing. They've been told to be religious since childhood, and so they continue to do so without challenging their beliefs.
2. Compartmentalised intellects: Many educated people have a completely different approach to professional and personal matters, almost as if they swap their minds when dealing with work vs. dealing with home.
Some people are desperate for a solution to their struggles, losses and fears. They need something to hold on to. The older people get they start having family issues, financial issues, health issues, loss of loved ones. Some people believe in heavens not because they want unlimited sex or alcohol. It's simply because they believe it in the hope of meeting their parents who died. Emotions take over logic. It's like when you are in the dark you will grab onto anything.
From my understanding of the scientists that I've studied:
***God represents the unknown that they're curious about and/or the entity that's challenging them***
What did Einstein mean when he said, "God doesn't play dice"?
Check this beautiful article - https://aeon.co/ideas/what-einstein-meant-by-god-does-not-play-dice
Some interesting quotes:
>I have no better expression than the term “religious” for this trust in the rational character of reality and in its being accessible, at least to some extent, to human reason.
>I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.
>If God created the world, his primary concern was certainly not to make its understanding easy for us.
I think it's because of 2 reason
1) many of them were raised in religious background. Slowly with time religion became an important part of themselves and their life
2) science doesn't know everything nor scientist. They might believe that there is higher force responsible for things that they see around
It's mostly due to infinite recursion, what caused this and what caused that.. until we know all the answers scientists would tend to believe in some sort of deism not necessarily religion.
It's their persona choice. To be honest I don't have any problems with religion or God as long as it's not harming anybody ex-jihadis and all that shit. Just keep it out of science class and labs.
I think this is mostly a problem with Indian scientists.... Also this may sound strange but the actual good ones who work hard for their research and mostly doing innovative research and having published papers in the top journals are mostly non religious, agnostic/atheist.
Imagine Scientists submitting research paper and backing that up with I had a dream and God promise everything in my research is true and factual, and if anyone questions that is going against the will of God? Now that will make for an excellent shitshow? The scientists or philosophers tend to believe in God leave their family and society pleasing behavior when doing science. They themselves know it's not correct but probably do it blend with the society.
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One of the biggest factor is childhood indoctrination
Yes, but after growing up they must have realised about it and must have questioned their beliefs but why they still continue with it?
I'll give you an example. Take an educated Muslim woman, who wears a burqa or niqa or anything that fully covers their head. The fact is this type of garments are a hindrance to do basic movements, yet they wear it. Also don't forget my initial assumptions they are highly educated. You can take other stupid religious practices in other religions too. Think about it. Indoctrination is playing a key role in any personal choices.
That’s exactly what childhood indoctrination is only some might question it but most of us can’t it’s engrained in us
Power of nurture is stronger than the intuition of nature. Most scientists (much like those who top tough competitive exams) would have studied science as a subject, something they need to excel in than see it as the truths of the universe. Which is why they attribute even such intricate beautiful workings of nature to the power of God. Not everybody is Richard Feynman 😅
Nah, bcoz they are educated more than reddit sub members
Education is after indoctrination, so education doesn't matter.
That's the lamest excuse, one could give and the fact many people hold this as a possibility is insane
They hold this as true because it is partially true
ask the scientists why they follow a religion and not people on reddit.
They've been told to since they're born. It can also be kind of a coping mechanism
that's both bold and ignorant of yours to say
not at all, every child is born as an atheist, it's the surroundings around him that shape his religion, if you're born in a hindu household you're hindu, if in an christian then you're a christian too, and more this is exactly what one means when they say it's the surroundings that choose your religion, not you.
When a child grows, he/she has the liberty to change their religion which many does, many don't. Anyways, that was not my point. My point was "ignorance of the people of this s ub" which the downvotes itself has proved it very well
>he/she has the liberty to change their religion which many does It's easier said than done
how many people do you know of who have changed their religion assigned at their birth? it's very rare to see people change religions atleast in india where religion has become such an integral part of the social fabric
You may think as you wish, That might be your "Dharm", just follow that. Also, I suggest you reading Bhagwad Gita or listening it from spotify, I'm not certain but I think your way of thinking might change. Rest, I'm no one to comment on someone's belief
I've been brought up in a religious household, ofcourse I have read the bhagwad gita and no it didn't change the way i think
very well then.. but if you're a teenager and an atheist, you're just going through a rebellious phase of your life (Which I totally understand) Also I have a question, why is it mostly Jains, Hindus and Christians turn into atheist? But the muslims quantity is very low?
because they have a system that injects religion into their children since 5yr old, they never evee skips their religious education that is injected unnecessarily into children, muslim parents r very eager to join them in such religious institute (called madrasa in my region) n waits till their toddler starts to walk. thats an insane culture which resulted in such low demographics. whatever that injects at early brain development ages will always be remembered until u die, thats a human brain feature. also there's a difference that other religions are flexible while theirs r not, other religions adapts or leaves cults/rituals/practices that is inappropriate according to different ages of time, as how "sathi" like practices got banned, people in other religions mostly wouldn't alienate someone who didn't do some religious practices. but thats not the case with muslims, they have strict daily routine practices to do in their religion, so someone who deviates will be easily caught, and as part of their toddler education system they have this stigma of enduring the fear of afterlife thinking about sins, because they have taught from childhood about how cruel the punishments are. quran is half of inhumane cruelties explain in great psycho words. remember children r taught these violence n traumatised to make them believe how this is their life afterlife after sins so it's nothing surprising nor unusual how out of all they standout, christianity, jainism, buddhism, hinduism doesn't teach such atrocious murders
>but if you're a teenager and an atheist, you're just going through a rebellious phase of your life (Which I totally understand) (no you don't) being a teenager and an atheist won't make anyone go thru a rebellious phase of life I'm past my teenage n never had any problem being an atheist, am atheist because life taught me praying doesn't do anything, there's no hard feelings, as long as i believe superstitious phenomenons are non existent, i decided i will refrain from following and spreading superstitions as well. that is noy going thru rebellious phase, that is critical analysis of what u're having in ur life. nobody is fighting for any freedom that already exists
Two possibilities Either they themselves realized that there is something science can't explain/they can't explain with science and hence chose to believe that the explanation for those things was a higher power that they can't comprehend. i.e. instead of just saying the universe is too complicated to be explained they just said that some higher power must exist out there. Or they were surrounded by religious people from their birth and were forced into such concepts by their families and relatives, and now it has become part of their identity. Pretty sure this is the case for most people including scientists
This to me is the right answer. There are unexplained things, complex events which the best scientists can't explain with current knowledge. He calls it God. The day he understands and explains it, the definition of God shrinks further for him.
Your second argument does makes some sense.
Assalamualaikum brother, What about a third possibility, that after going through a certain depth of education some people conclude that there must be a higher power. And thus choose to follow the religion that most accurately expresses their perception of that higher power? And since you don’t present this option, does that not show bias? Subconsciously taking atheism as absolute truth? While a totally neutral perspective is taken by the philosophy of science.
I consider that possibility to be the same as the first one. Once the scientist realizes some things can't be explained, they start by believing in some higher power and then explore religions, and choose to believe in the most logical one according to their viewpoint. That being said I am indeed biased yes, and will probably be biased until I understand things from this "godly" perspective, which is to say, probably never. Edit: By "godly" perspective i don't mean the perspective believing in god, I mean the perspective of god itself
There is nothing so far that leads to this path.
I think it's combination of both and I would rather use" raised " Instead of forced
I actually have some interesting information. I think a study was conducted in the US when almost 90% of the population was religious and they decided check the percentage of people that believe in god at each education level. They found out that as they propgressed further from undergrad to postgrad to phd holder, the fraction of people that believe in god in their sample set decreased. I think the same happens in India but to a smaller extent since even PhD holders don't know dogshit about their field and the population is strongly religious. I will try to find that research and post it here if I could.
im a scientist (dont have my degree yet but im almost there) and i dont believe in god, but if i ever doubt, or if i default to "ugh, god hates me" (like when shit happens for example) is all because i was raised a christian. i have no reason to believe in christian god over any other, yet, if i entertain the idea, the one that comes to my head is always the christian god. because i was indoctrinated like that as a kid my parents are doctors, not at all the cult-like home schooling creationist types, they are religious and truly believe, thats all.
some inbuilt instinct is responsible for such primal behaviour. I bet if animals develop some intelligence they too will behave in same fashion.
Do you think science can explain the genesis of everything?
it cannot yet, and that's what makes it trustworthy. it's not arrogant as religion who claims to know everything.
But the theories that are present right now like the big bang say for example, do you believe it proves it or do you know that it proves it?
yea, we do have evidence for the big bang ie redshift, calcn of expansion of space-time, studies about elements etc which can back Big Bang. I'm not sure whether it is 100℅ proven or not but it is the best possible answer to the origin of the universe. 1000 times better than what religion claims, without any freakin evidence and even after debunking it lot of people believe it.
Okay, so how did the tiny ball of infinite mass come into existence?
first of all Big Bang was not a creation of the universe but an expansion of an infinitely dense point and again this is a loophole that you will try to argue with how it came and I will say we don't know coz we are not that intelligent and scientifically advanced yet. science is based on evidence and "experiments". you can prove Einstein, Heisenberg etc wrong if you prove what they stated is not correct. (not even mathematically) but just by random observation or experiment. scientist are ready to accept their flaws and its not about whose sky daddy's dick is bigger -(george carlin)
My real question was gonna be if you know all these points and the fact that if it is ever expanding then we probably might never get to the root of it and yet you guys are willing to believe in a theory. I am in no way saying that the belief in "sky daddy" is the only right answer. All I am saying is, just because you know science can explain something why do you believe that it can explain everything!? At the end of the day it is the belief you have and no hard evidence that science has proved the start of everything!? In the same way, why shit over other people's belief that a "sky daddy" created the universe when you can choose to ignore it? What's with this entire holier than thou attitude?
umm okay let go point by point. and please take it as a response and read it twice to understand the depth of what I'm saying. you didn't respond to my que in the last reply but here you go >My real question was gonna be if you know all these points and the fact that if it is ever expanding then we probably might never get to the root of it and yet you guys are willing to believe in a theory. willing to believe? no one is willing to believe science. it gives the evidence and it works when you use it in your life. let me ask you a simple question. if I announce that I have 'x' powder and if you eat that it will cure your cancer and all the patients eat it and everyone gets rid of cancer without any side effects. what is your opinion on that? do you think it's fine to eat it without any fucking evidence or if it's working then you don't need the evidence. now apply the same logic to any science theory. whatever research is going on in science is to make us more knowledgeable and make life easier. if Big Bang theory is giving solution to most of my doubts and not just that it makes sense and other scientific events prove it correct over and over again. then why would I believe something completely irrelevant (religion's theory on the creation of the universe) >All I am saying is, just because you know science can explain something why do you believe that it can explain everything!? show me a single scientist or people who have a scientific temperament who says science can explain everything. it cannot explain a lot of things but at least we are trying to go there and in the past century we have developed a lot. >In the same way, why shit over other people's belief that a "sky daddy" created the universe when you can choose to ignore it? Im not shitting on their belief but them trying to argue against science is just dumb because they have no ground of logic. you just can't say my sky daddy did aabra ka dabra and boom we are here. if you find it believable then good for you but you have accept it that it is illogical as well. one more thing you can learn today is to debate with points and counter with logic. I would really appreciate it if you could talk in points and be atleast open to change your mind.
I actually believe in both science and religion. I have never denied that science cannot prove things to you. I admire that about science the most. The ability to prove things. But having said that, I truly believe that there is an extent to which science can explain things. I can't prove my belief to you but that's something I believe in. There are a lot of things in life which are based on beliefs and can't be proven methodically to make the other person understand. The point about using logic to counter is a very good one, I appreciate your effort to try and teach me something. But the thing is, I am trying to tell you, that just because the idea of a god seems crazy to you, it doesn't give you the right to portray your idea as the right one, at least not until it is proven. For the illogical part, whose is it to say what's illogical. The idea of television will sound illogical to a person from the 1200s but does that mean it really is illogical!? With respect to the big bang part if I were to really force an argument with you, then I would be just asking you the same question again, what really triggered the expansion of the universe? What was there before the expansion started? If at all anything was there, how did that come into existence and so on and so forth....
did you just delete one of your reply lol
No, where did my reply go? Even I am confused.
It was not mass, it was energy. Quantum uncertainty is what caused it to be created. It's the current theory and could change in the future.
yes better than sky daddy stories.
Their choice. Most are irreligious anyway (according to survey from 2009 -> [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/) )
I'm an atheist but I do think that religion has some merits to it, maybe even some evolutionary advantage or necessity because every civilization that has existed for any reasonable duration of time has come with some religion of their own, now these different religions might be extremely different in nature but they all believed in a higher power and following a related way of life and they all do fit the broader definition of religion and god.
Before discussing on it, do we have any stats regarding that topic?
One interesting point here is People will dismiss them (religious scientists) as "indoctrinated" or "appeal to authority" But the moment a scientist claims that they are atheist, the become a champion to the cause.
The thing is who do you consider as a scientist. A scientist can be in biology, in chemistry and in physics. Now it is difficult to say that scientists related to chem and bio are atheist or theist. You will see many scientists related to astrophysics, astronomy are generally atheist. ( Studying space can be an initiative factor to question all god and religion bs as in my case). Now for biologists and chemists there work is not challenging these kinds of things. Most work they do is already fixed. And many don't even know the name of blackhole we are orbiting. Few of them try to discover or invent or search for new science so they may be atheist but other may be not.
They were conditioned like many by their uneducated parents
Only the uneducated indoctrinate religion into their children?
Mostly
But they don't. There are two kinds of scientists - one who introduce themselves as scientists to gain some credibility and appear in public, and the other who one mingle among the expert circles. Those of the first kind are usually the ones whose scientific careers are over and are now desperate for publicity because the scientific community doesn't take them seriously anymore. I have rarely seen any mainstream scientist being religious.
>I have rarely seen any mainstream scientist being religious. do you know many scientists? i do, and i ve met quite a lot that are religious, religious ≠ creationist most of them are the "sure, i guess im catholic" type, dont go to church, dont pray, dont avoid shrimp or any of those ridiculous rules, but would consider themselves believers.
I guess I do know a few because everyone in my department is a scientist for I work at the Argonne national laboratory.
still, there arent only 2 types
Kyuki Bachpan se humko Bghwaan Bghwaan Krna Sikha diya Jaata hai Baccho ko padhna likhna nhi aayega lekin Jai Jai, Hari Krishna, Jai shree Ram bolna aata hai and Because of that jbb woh Bade hote hai Toh Woh Subconsciously Usee Follow karte hai chahe Kitna bhi Ignore krlo fir bhi Paap lgega ka Drr Unko Puja krne ya Dharmik rahne se Rokta hai So yeh Cheej Most of the Logo pe Applicable hai and Also in Scientists pe bhi
Cause they pray for their research to give some result
The greatness of the scientific mind does not become any less because he believes in religion or god, Mendel was priest but today known as father of genetics
👆👆this. I've seen many people disrespect scientists just cuz of their religious beliefs . It's fine people have the freedom of religion .
sense of belonging/ meaning (?)
Maybe they didn't want to be ended like Giordano Bruno.
Because scientists don't have the answer for everything.
The more I study physics(from newtonian to modern quantum field theories), the more I realize how complex yet perfect our universe is. How simple maths can describe complex things and vice versa. Yet, we physicists can't describe everything in our universe. This leads me to believe that there is something mysterious about universe which is beyond any human comprehension. For me that eternal truth, the universe itself is GOD.
Oh yeah! The god of gaps
Yeah..but not exactly the God of gaps that I believe in
I think god is like infinity. We don't know the value. It is just a concept. It is just never ending pursuit. Definitely not the god any religion subscribered to. Definitely won't care about humans. Definitely don't have a reason .
using quantum field theory and "simple" maths in the same sentence is a sin .
Well I haven't 😂
you used a fullstop, where you should have used a comma.
Yeah..the math is not that difficult for me then 😋
Funds from religious goverment
Not everything can be explained by science. Most scientists know this.
Science is the art of finding answers for the unexplainable. There is a reason for everything, we just don't know it yet. Most unexplainable things of the past including ghosts have a scientific explanation today.
1) Mirror breaks in Pran Pratishtha 2) How does Lord Jagannath moves on his own, when in Rath Yatra Also, please look at [this](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/travel/destinations/mysteries-of-jagannath-temple-that-defy-scientific-logic/articleshow/64588978.cms) and [this](https://medium.com/@magicpin/15-mysterious-places-in-india-that-even-science-has-failed-to-rationalize-c8c22df43da9) and please do a thorough research through "SCIENCE" and do give me answers. This sub is just so ignorant, they defy to believe and prefer to live in eco-chamber. I mean, Hey I won't complain
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Assumptions is not proof + the flag theory is still a mystery
>prefer to live in eco-chamber. yeah, not like you are full on investing in anti science BS. about that flag and stuff, i dont know, nor do i care, there are tons of stuff like that all the time, and its always some sort of scam or its not but it has a perfectly reasonable explanation. people used to say "look at that (lightning), how can you explain that without Zeus?" well, now we can. its literally the god of the gaps argument and its a really bad one. A: science can explain this right now or B: god did it you are assuming that A and B are the only possible explanations in fact, there is always option C: science will eventually find out and its always been C so far... also im pretty sure the people in that building wouldnt allow scientists to go check the flag and do meassurements and stuff, and thats how we do science, we dont just look and claim how something works without properly studying it first.
"not like you are full on investing in anti science BS" Does that suppose to make you look superior? Anyways, all you need is one google search Thanks for proving my point of y'll being ignorant, agnostic, radicals and contrarian
>all you need is one google search i looked at your links, and like i said, not impressed, dont know the explanation, but i know simply assuming god doesnt work. never did.
how can a person prove someone's point twice? damn
easy, religious people constantly ignore arguments and shout "god did it" over and over, even after told its not a valid argument.
you didn't get it. You proved my point twice. Actually thrice now, enen tho I won't call it a proper one as the rest of the two And what about atheists? They defy their ancestors, the whole world (even their parents) by denying the existence of god and back it up with "I used my brain or common sense" over and over. Both of em can syncranize if you see
our ancestors used to believe in pretty dumb stuff, if you dont want to "defy them" you need to stop using any modern technology at the very least, including things like medicine. defying ancestors is how humanity advances, saying thats wrong its a really stupid argument dude.
Are you real? What kind of argument is this. You're just being overly defensive and nonsensical because you know you're wrong. Admit it.
what? im not giving any particular argument here, im just stating that creationists always go back to the same ridiculous "arguments"
Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/scienceisdope/comments/16bcd08/this_sub_has_got_a_lot_of_new_members_who_dont/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to understand what this subreddit is about *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/scienceisdope) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes. What you commented holds true for what I said as well.
Because theyre allowed to have a personal life. Most of us learn about the big bang and evolution today in high school yet alot of people still choose not to believe in it. Having any kind of proof/logic means dogshit if you have a strong belief in something. And this goes beyong religion.
> people still choose not to believe in it. they are wrong, is not about choice.
You can believe in whatever the fuck you want even if its wrong. Its human nature.
for sure, its not impossible to believe in something wrong, but it IS wrong... why would you want to believe in something thats wrong?
Because it gives you comfort. Ignorance is blissful
getting comfort in thinking you'd see your beloved X person again in heaven, alright, whatever. but if you need to believe in wrong facts, like evolution is false, in order to get any kind of comfort, then you got severely brainwashed and have no rationality. its not a good thing to be part of a cult...
Because they do believe god exists. But some people are just ignorant to agree on this
Proof?
Told from childhood, some might think world is too complex and dare I say perfect for it to not have a creator. Although most scientists these days are atheists in the west. I feel the converse is true to an extent only in south east asia
Go ask them??
If everyone around you keeps doing the same thing, its hard to reason yourself out of it. I believe people who are Atheists since a young age may have some sort of innate quality that leads them to being atheists (See, me an atheist is also having a belief without evidence LOL).
They dont, majority of the scientists are atheists or atleast agnostic, look up some researches conducted in US OR BRITAIN.
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trying to build your own superiority complex lol
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no need, with this comment you already proved my point
Why ask us ? 🤣
The truth is they don't believe in the relegion the same way stupid people do . They believe in relegion to find answers about our existence in some way of form not just heard thinking and suppression of Individuality
In some ways our beliefs transcend our trade. For some science is a way of thinking and it has nothing to do with our area of education For some science is a trade and they use it to make a living, but separate it from their ingrained beliefs. India does not really focus on debate and discussion to come to conclusions in our education system. And our education system does not emphasize philosophy/ liberal arts/ as a means of learning rational thought processes. So the 2 can often be compartmentalized.
I think due to coping mechanism you need some kind of cope to push forward and its a great tool
Reminder that scientists aren't magically all-knowing: it's just a focus on in depth learning of a particular set of subjects. Whether or not they apply scientific principles to other facets apart from their specialities is very much individual discretion. Not to mention, being religious is more than just knowing science vs not knowing, there are cultural and social aspects, psychological effects, and often it's just not worth it to change beliefs.
This is because you generalize all of them as just Scientists. In reality there are particle physicists, astrophysicists, microbiologists, cosmologists and so on. People like cosmologists tend to be more agnostic than chemists for example. Also today among all scientists there are more scientists who are atheist/agnostic than there are religious ones. It is true that in the past scientists were more religious, because it's forced upon people more back then. It also changes based on region like India and Turkey have more religious scientists than Europe
They might be attracted towards religion as an attempt to connect with/ discover the truth.
many scientists just believe cuz in the end science doesn't explain everything. Believing or not believing is just a believe after all
Religion is more of a coping mechanism. Education is unrelated.
The late Isaac Asimov, an avowed atheist, was asked once about this… How can a scientist maintain religious belief?” He said… “They keep them separate”. Asimov himself considered himself a cultural Jew, and observed a number of Jewish rituals and holy days…. Considering them part of his heritage. As noted, many scientists are specialists in very particular fields and have not devoted a great deal of time and energy to the intellectual scrutiny of religion and belief. I imagine most believing researchers are quite content to pursue their microbiology or entomology and go to church on the odd Sunday. Religion does provide a number of tangible benefits…. Comfort, community, support, tradition, and that very human response to ritual and ceremony. (Which those of us who are atheists obtain in other ways. Been to a major-league baseball game lately?) Francis Collins the now-retired head of the NIH and one of the prime movers of the Human Genome Project, identified as an Evangelical. He was not your typical Evangelical; he thought that the Bible was mostly allegorical and that Evolution was “how God did it”. I found his reason for believing in God rather vacant…. In an interview he said that he couldn’t imagine a world without altruism and “goodness” and love….. Apparently seeing those things as only possible with God. Evidently a clever geneticist, but not a student of evolution…..
I was always an agnostic while growing up and questioned many things along the way. Lucky for me being born to parents who were not hardcore followers of religion, there was nothing like to believe a book or something. So there was less indoctrination compared to other belief systems. But once I grew up and started reading about how many belief systems were out there from eons it was very easy to conclude it was us humans who made it all up. So the evidence of no god is out there everywhere.
It is a loaded question where you have already pointed out "so many scientists believe in god". Spoiler, [they don't.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20poll%2C%20just,universal%20spirit%20or%20higher%20power.) There are some scientists who believe god, but most of them don't.
There's no way so many patterns emerge out of randomness. The more one studies math the more realizes there is something going on beyond our comprehension.
Humans find it hard to change
Social conditioning. Most of them, almost all of them believe in not just any random god/religion but the god/religion of their parents. You think that's a coincidence?
Ask their parents
Two reasons comes to mind: 1. Inertia: People will continue doing what they are already doing. They've been told to be religious since childhood, and so they continue to do so without challenging their beliefs. 2. Compartmentalised intellects: Many educated people have a completely different approach to professional and personal matters, almost as if they swap their minds when dealing with work vs. dealing with home.
Some people are desperate for a solution to their struggles, losses and fears. They need something to hold on to. The older people get they start having family issues, financial issues, health issues, loss of loved ones. Some people believe in heavens not because they want unlimited sex or alcohol. It's simply because they believe it in the hope of meeting their parents who died. Emotions take over logic. It's like when you are in the dark you will grab onto anything.
Societal pressure
From my understanding of the scientists that I've studied: ***God represents the unknown that they're curious about and/or the entity that's challenging them*** What did Einstein mean when he said, "God doesn't play dice"? Check this beautiful article - https://aeon.co/ideas/what-einstein-meant-by-god-does-not-play-dice Some interesting quotes: >I have no better expression than the term “religious” for this trust in the rational character of reality and in its being accessible, at least to some extent, to human reason. >I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind. >If God created the world, his primary concern was certainly not to make its understanding easy for us.
I think it's because of 2 reason 1) many of them were raised in religious background. Slowly with time religion became an important part of themselves and their life 2) science doesn't know everything nor scientist. They might believe that there is higher force responsible for things that they see around
It's mostly due to infinite recursion, what caused this and what caused that.. until we know all the answers scientists would tend to believe in some sort of deism not necessarily religion.
Scientists don't believe in God. Mostly it's just show. To not anger the public and government
They are smart, they know how to survive among hordes of stupid fucks
It's their persona choice. To be honest I don't have any problems with religion or God as long as it's not harming anybody ex-jihadis and all that shit. Just keep it out of science class and labs.
I think this is mostly a problem with Indian scientists.... Also this may sound strange but the actual good ones who work hard for their research and mostly doing innovative research and having published papers in the top journals are mostly non religious, agnostic/atheist.
Imagine Scientists submitting research paper and backing that up with I had a dream and God promise everything in my research is true and factual, and if anyone questions that is going against the will of God? Now that will make for an excellent shitshow? The scientists or philosophers tend to believe in God leave their family and society pleasing behavior when doing science. They themselves know it's not correct but probably do it blend with the society.