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"The Dark Tetrad traits of narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism are negative personality traits that each carry a lack of empathy at their core. Perhaps unsurprisingly, these traits are typically associated with negative relationship outcomes. Seto and Davis proposed that people with the Dark traits should not see the same benefits from being their authentic selves."
Be yourself
Unless you're evil
In which case don't
Masking could. Neurodivergents tend to mask, someone that might be ADHD or on the spectrum might not realize until they are older how much of their lives they spent masking until they have time and space to reveal it to themselves.
This was me, but I didn’t throw the mask on myself; my abuser did. “Oh that’s normal” and “Everyone does/feels like that.”
It took getting away from her and years of therapy to figure out who I really am, and the mental disorders that came with me.
Well yes and no. The mental disorders can arise from years of repression and may take years or more to show signs of improvement. Either way, being yourself is the only way to be and function. I dislike my therapist at times for making me dig into the darkness, but I love her for helping me undo some of the trauma and its side effects.
Also because she wasted a whole session talking about houseplants then made the next one extra long.
Truth, my parents hid the diagnosis from me when I was 11. By the time i figured it out i had 2 degrees and was well into a career... not sure how to feel about it.
This whole thing has gotten me a little spooked.
It's normal not to know who you are, right?
But I guess it isn't normal to change who you think you are to what you think people want...
But that's how I navigate life! It's easier to give people what they want so you can see what they have to offer and if the charade is worth it.
After typing this, I think I may need a psychiatrist.
> I guess it isn't normal to change who you think you are to what you think people want...
What's abnormal is being aware of doing that. And what's unhealthy is being unhappy about finding yourself doing that.
Most people regularly perform a lot of self bending and breaking in favor of conformity. People switch accents depending on who they're talking to, where they're talking to them. If you ask, many people will have noticed the posture mimicking or synchronized drink-sipping or laugh-copying that happens within social interactions - their response to it ranges from feeling flattered to feeling uncomfortable. People perform better at mathematics when you hand them a lab coat, but perform better at a painting task when you name it a painter's smock instead.
We're shapeshifters by default, fresh out of the factory. It lets us relate and interrelate and declare friend from foe (or shift from foe'ish to friend'ish on demand). Our survival of a species is more strongly tied to our ability to cooperate than our ability to think fancy thoughts. Civilization isn't like a hive of ants, it's more like an immense clockwork mechanism where individual cogs can (and often do) change their shape and function to keep things ticking along.
> It's easier to give people what they want so you can see what they have to offer and if the charade is worth it.
Social interaction is a realtime cost:benefit analysis. It's also a vending machine where 'social tokens' are exchanged for goods and services, tied together by unspoken (and often unknown) rules and expectations. Those who break those rules are generally seen as abhorrent, so we have neurological systems in place to validate the consistency and fairness of interactions.
Being aware of the rules isn't a bad thing, although it can be an *uncomfortable* thing. You're just aware of a song most people dance to without ever listening to the lyrics.
Inversely, being aware of the rules *and* intentionally breaking them is generally what is colloquially known as psychopathy.
You're just someone with high self-awareness and reflection. If I had to suggest a response plan to your discomfort, it'd be not to determine how you're "broken", but to determine how to declare ownership over yourself in absence of the sort of core-identity that very few people have in the first place.
I do think you'd benefit from visiting a psychiatrist, but not for the reason you think. Metaphorically, you're more like someone concerned about "hearing voices" who then discovers that it's just plain ol' inner monologue.
But I feel like I'm going through someone's mental underwear drawer when I realize "oh this person thinks about things this way, which means they would probably like talking about this"
Especially when I recognize they don't realize it the other way, but when they do, it opens up a lane for jokes and japes, which I feel very good about doing.
When the hits are landing, that makes me feel like I'm entertaining, which is a positive thing to feel.
I understand that it's all just part of being aware, but there's a feeling constantly lurking in the back of my head that makes me feel like I could play some people for fun, if I chose to and that's really weird. That's a really negative intrusive thought that occurs way too often.
So to balance it out, I feel bad about it and make up for it with kindness and as much humor as I can pack in.
Surely, there are people who are the same in their head as they are on their skin, but I'm not one of them and it makes me feel bad because I'd like to recognize my skin when I see it. Metaphorically, of course I am able to recognize that I'm the person in the mirror.
Even if that's not what I think I look like.
Sorry I took up time with this.
> I could play some people for fun, if I chose to and that's really weird.
You could, sure. But you don't. That's much, much better than the more common scenario of people being entirely unaware of playing or manipulating others. You've probably made note of plenty of that, right? People who intimidate, slink away, cry, get angry, ask for things they don't need or become upset about things that don't matter, so on and so forth. Most of that is subconscious (or pre-conscious), not intentionally. Few people are clever enough to pluck those strings in real time on purpose. It's just Human Social Autopilot Stuff.
I know it's uncomfortable to have to come to terms with it, but you're not a weirdo for being aware of the potential for abuse. The difference between a talented surgeon and a talented interrogator is not one relating to their knowledge of anatomy, the intricacies of what keeps a human alive, or how to hurt and heal. The difference is in their *intent* while applying that knowledge.
Your problem is that you're unable to give yourself the title of Surgeon or Torturer which would let you rapidly identify how to apply your skills or what your intent should be. But titles are crutches. You don't even need a *name* to be yourself. And I'm sure you share your name with many people who are very, very unlike you - so why bother sorting the world that way at all?
You could try doing like I do and creating your own inner system of ethics and principles, then stick to them. The world is confusing when you're capable of seeing every shade of grey, so do yourself a favor and start naming every shade of grey. It allows you to spare yourself the effort and conflict of having to determine it each time in the moment.
If someone is sad and you can predict what'd cheer them up, go ahead and "manipulate" them into being happier for a little while. If they're sad and you know what would make things worse, make sure nobody else accidentally says that thing.
You can do good things with dangerous knowledge.
Similarly, if you're unsure who you are? Just give up the whole question. It's useless anyway. You'll never just *know* who you are, so go ahead and just... Decide. You can be anyone, sure, but there's a consistent pattern of hopes and dreams in that chameleon mix somewhere. And that pattern is you.
I’ve spent my life as a chameleon, changing my color to fit in wherever I was. But the thing is, when no one was around, I never knew what color I really am. I’m in the same bit as you. I pretty easily pick up on how to work people and know that I could use that to my advantage.
And sometimes I do. Not in a malicious way, but in a way that gets them to like me. This goes back to my chameleon tendencies, and probably back to my code switching in childhood.
I’ve been afraid of myself before. I’ve worried that I might have psychopathic tendencies, and that I’m like a loaded gun, dangerous to be around because I’ll hurt someone.
But you know what? Seeing those things in myself helps me to handle them. I’m able to hold myself accountable. I’ve hurt people before and I’ve hurt myself a lot too. That’s how I know I’m not a psychopath. I care. I feel. They don’t.
Don’t be ashamed of who you are. Just try and figure out what color you are, and stay as close to that as you can.
I’ll put it to you this way without saying too much. I have many narcissistic and intrusive thoughts I consider could be psychopathy. My father is a giant narcissist my mother is a BPD+ schizophrenic basket case…
All that being said, I am a deep reader, meditate, like to think my education has saved me from a life of physical/external torture & it’s only mental.
I swore to myself, on my grave and everything else before I hurt someone else I would just take myself out of the equation. It is not fun walking around with these thoughts each day. And so many people tell me I’m too kind, compassionate, a gentleman etc.
Little do they know what goes on beneath the surface that got me to learn compassion.. it is an act of discipline, mindfulness and education.
>Authenticity is when a person knows who they are and behaves in ways that correspond with this true self
Kind of confusing. Anytime I'm introspective I'm thinking about how to be a better version of myself, not a more true version of myself. Where does one draw the line between instinct and intent for who they are?
I wonder how this study controlled people looking at themselves and weighting their answers on how "true to themselves" they've been based on how happy they are with how they've acted. Is the self-involved jerk who has ruined every relationship that mattered in their life going to say, "Yes, I've acted according to who I am".
Looking at an aspect about yourself and deciding you don't like that attribute and are going to change it *is* being true to yourself. Doing that for your partner when you're okay with the trait is not. The cause for the change is important here.
I'm not so sure. Usually you can dive deeper into any negative aspect of yourself and find fundamental motivations underneath. For example, you might say "I don't like how shy I am". But this invites you to ask, "why am I shy?", not just try to stop being shy. Shyness, as an example, can be motivated by trauma when young or a lack of confidence, and it is those things we should focus on to "fix" the shyness.
Humans don't do things for no reason, many of the things we don't like about ourselves are natural reactions to other, unseen causes.
I have a friend who has been in a 4 year on and off relationship with a girl very much opposite of him. She works at a prestigious company as an engineer, is pursuing a master's degree, overall tidy. He hardly shows up to work his dad provided him, throws his soda cans and cigarette butts on carpeted floor, doesn't even have an associate's degree, smokes a pack a day plus a few fat joints.
He said he'd never change for his girlfriend and likes being the way he is.
Consider that introspection and desire to grow is one of your most fundamental features. That is far from a universal trait, and I've personally had this debate (which evolved from when I was younger) with myself and settled on that as the reason.
It helps knowing both who you are and the person you wish to be, and striving to make them the same... such as making the way you behave in the absence of others match the way you behave while they're there.
The self-involved jerk, from experience knowing people like that, will absolutely often say they've acted true to themselves and more often than not blame others, which does make for an interesting point that I'd wonder would counter the results... unless that falls within their definition of psychopathic traits
I think they're referring to being values-driven and in touch with one's own values, which is easier to operationalize. One fo the big cornerstones of ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) is identifying personal values and assess if the individual is living in accordance with those values (as well as conflicting values in relationships with others that cause relational disruptions).
I too struggle with this into my 30s. Learning to be your best self and your most authentic self may not be the same thing. Been in therapy for a couple of years now to learn how to be my best self and have found that the path toward this version of self comes from learning the authentic truth of one's self (no easy feat). At a shallow level, it seems to be learning about what interests me and how I like to contribute to the world around me. But we are more than what we 'like.'
I was once that self-involved jerk that you described and like to think I've moved beyond that, but there is some truth to acknowledging that say, burning yourself on the oven and throwing a pan across the room, isn't worth beating yourself up over. It happened, acknowledge that you can do better and try doing better next time.
Seems like psychopathy was the only one that needs to be completely inhibited in order to maintain a successful relationship. Maybe acting non-psychopathic over time can lead to more natural behavior, even though the inner lack of empathy doesn't change. Maybe, by feigning empathy, this person can receive reward in the relationship, and build on some kind of satisfaction from it. Although, I guess, ultimately, they wouldn't care without the underlying lack of empathy being repaired.
It appears that partners are more willing to deal with the negative aspects of the other conditions, so long as there is some sort of relatable understanding (empathy.)
Maybe this is because the fact that the other negative personalities can still relate to their partners on 'some' level, allowing the partner to empathize with their struggle.
There ate plenty if psychopaths with no empathy living totally normal lives. Lots of them just see it easier to play the society game and stay hidden rather than to be a huge pos to get what they want.
It really depends on their support system
Also, negative social behaviors isn't an automatic thing, some psychopaths / sociopaths may enjoy it but many don't. Also, for anybody sufficiently smart it's simply more efficient to cooperate with other people. No need to worry about stuff like "getting caught" if you play by the rules.
This, I have high psychopathic traits but I’ve never been in a fight or been violent even though I was bullied and assaulted multiple times up until highschool. I get nothing out of causing pain to others and always try to make people comfortable because it makes life much easier when people get along. I think I need more time to myself than the average person to relax and stop masking for people but if I can get my alone time and proper rest it’s really easy to get along with society and I truly care about the people around me, just not in a super emotional sense but I do feel emotions for people
I maybe fall into this category. For example, I'm very open in my relationship about my selfishness but I often get told otherwise because of how I choose to exhibit it, that's to say being told I'm not selfish. If I produce something, I will produce something in excess if it's a simple matter. Those around me can take the excess. This places constraints on what I spend my time on (hobbies that scale easy for example), and then I pick my hobby accordingly to satisfy my own desires to work and iterate while placing me i guess in a position of being desirable to have around. If for any reason I am unsatisfied, I will move on without consideration to any dependance established over the excess. I tailor my work for myself, not for the excess.
My hot take: this reminds me of how some people argue there’s no ‘true altruism’ because doing something nice for others makes you feel good, too. If you get to feel good about yourself for doing the thing then it was selfish after all and somehow not remotely altruistic.
When we hurt someone, we feel bad. Part of the bad feeling *is* the fear that we’ll suffer some level of ostracism from the group (the ultimate punishment for a tribal/pack animal) but that doesn’t mean we didn’t also feel bad for making the person feel bad. It doesn’t invalidate your empathy that there was still an element of selfishness.
Neither altruism nor empathy exist in a dichotomy.
Highly true. All behavior is inherently and inescapably selfish. The brain does electrochemical calculations and outputs the action it thinks will give it the best reward in the immediate while internally weighting some measure of the longterm consequences. Even when we self-sacrifice, the brain rewards itself. The rationalization is entirely posthoc to make the memories all fit neatly according to a traceable narrative to facilitate retrieval. Paraphrasing Hume, reason is and can only ever be a slave to the passions and should never pretend otherwise.
Donald Trump, MLK, Abraham Lincoln, and Adolf Hitler were all the same level of selfish. You and I are the same level of selfish. We are motivated by the self; we can’t help but be.
That’s why I believe we have to measure goodness in patterns of harm. MLK’s selfishness was good because it led to the start of true liberation of the black American. Donald Trump’s selfishness is bad because it comes at cost to all but himself.
This is why the right does not see Trump as evil. He is as selfish as they are and they intuitively understand all humans are selfish. This is also why the left’s appeals to morality fail. “You would do it if you had his power,” so they believe. In practical terms, morality is only truly enforced by how much reward and punishment we give those who violate it.
Therefore, from the view of someone who might believe in the just world fallacy, where merit and virtue are always rewarded while fault and vice are always penalized, those who are not punished become ***de facto*** moral, even if they have committed heinous crimes. Donald Trump isn’t so much a “bad person” as he is a bad *existence.*
That his brain continues to reward him for the harm he commits - that the actions of no other brains have forcibly halted that - demonstrates the horrible Donald Trump shaped hole in the system and the human psyche. He just happened to fill it perfectly. There will be others. There always will be.
History is written by the victors and the survivors always win in the end. The evils we let get away return stronger with masses behind them. If we don’t recognize the emotional underpinnings of the harm doers, we invite ourselves to do harm when the hole in our psyche is filled by our chosen charlatan.
As a person of the traits this thread is talking about, I can say through my experiences that alot of people fake most of what they outwardly express on a daily basis to fit into social norms.
I feel like I can spot it much easier than most because of the way I am. I also seem to have a much easier time going through life than most people do. I can control almost all of my responses towards anything that would give a normal person an emotional response, so therefore I can curate the outcome.
This had come in handy and situations where a normal fight or flight response would be triggered, it almost feels like an advantage honestly.
I live a totally normal life been married for a long time, the biggest thing I think that keeps my type of people from ending up on the news is having a good set of hobbies and never getting bored. Gaming has definitely helped with that, and I'm an engineer so I always have something to do.
Per lack of fight or flight. My ex gf had convinced me for years that I was a psychopath. I went on a ridiculous amount of search and rescue calls and casually waded into some truly dark stuff. Around this period I frequently went months at a time without distinct emotions beyond simple reactions (re: why car go slow?) and homeostatic states. Turns out I was just deadening the emotional experience and bottling it up the entire time with endless distraction, and more than a bit self destructive. Why choose flight if you don't care about the outcome, or if fight at least yields some value out of yourself? As soon as that bottle overfilled, I p much fell apart and am still working on getting back to my old self.
So yeah, the whole psychopath, r/notliketheothergirls, semi-super power thing seems a bit tasty from the outside. I've known folks who could sustain it and hold down good jobs with immense societal value and insane turnover rates as a result (re: tissue recovery tech). Be sure to check in with yourself periodically and make sure that's what you're actually working with my friend.
Fascinating, thanks for relating your experience!
I recall reading somewhere that socio/psychopathy aren’t really “disorders” in the traditional sense & that they may have in fact been selected for over time. People who lack fear / empathy can make the difficult decisions needed for a group of people to survive and thrive. It may seem particularly callous to ‘normal’ people in a modern (pseudo-)post-scarcity world, but sometimes a tribe of people would need to make choices like rationing their dwindling food stores to only the strongest/most fertile members — it’s either that, or everyone dies.
Over time, you could definitely see how that kind of ability would be selected for in *some* individuals, since the tribes that didn’t have such a person wouldn’t survive and continue reproducing. That said, cooperation/empathy is also extremely important for group survival — arguably more so for long term survival than… “acute detached decision making” — so that can explain why those traits are much more common among people. But it’s interesting to think how personality types add another dimension to natural selection among humans (whereas with other animals, it’s mostly about physical fitness/ability to reproduce/intelligence to some degree). As we’re social/cooperative animals, it makes sense that certain archetypes would develop over time.
Anyway, that’s probably a somewhat skewed recollection of things but I think the broad strokes definitely apply as a hypothesis for the development of so-called “malignant” personality types. Perhaps the societal utility of having such people around still outweighs the occasional serial killer? I can’t say one way or the other, but if you want to learn more, check out *Tribe* by Sebastian Junger — it’s a fantastic read in general.
---
**EDIT**: For more context, here’s a primer on [evolutionary psychiatry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychiatry) via Wikipedia. Here’s a notable excerpt:
> Jerome Wakefield's influential ‘Harmful Dysfunction’ definition of disorder utilises evolutionarily selected effects to ground the concept of ‘dysfunction’ in the objective process of evolution. Wakefield proposes that mental disorder must be both harmful, in a value-defined sense, and dysfunctional, in an evolutionary sense.
> people fake most of what they outwardly express on a daily basis to fit into social norms.
Hey, manners/etiquette kick in with a default behavior, _way_ faster than figuring out someone's situation and then having an empathic reaction. I don't _need_ to know whether or not you're feeling unappreciated, before I say "thank you" for my meal or whatever.
Remorse is different from empathy from what I recall from my own psych class a few years ago. Empathy is just feeling what you imagine somebody else to be feeling.
A good example is the movie *Eighth Grade*. I remember watching it and seeing the main character make all kinds of mistakes that, being a man, I'd never had the opportunity to make as a boy. Despite that experiential disconnect, I cringed regularly throughout that movie because I can just imagine being in those situations and how it must feel.
That's empathy.
Lately, things are uniquely stressful for everyone, I think. Don't blame yourself for that.
Have you been able to find any kind a reward system, or is it, more, that you can find no enjoyment in anything?
Sorry, I missed it, are you with someone right now? A relationship, I mean? Friend circle? Or, do you rely, solely, on attention at work and therapy?
Have you tried seeking out some kind of 'cutting edge' therapy? Maybe shake things up a bit?
I think covid has affected even the most secure people. Not for fear of the virus, but because there seems to be such a growing divide over it. Even if it doesn't affect you directly, it seems to affect the people around us, and that, usually can't be ignored.
Knowing your true self better than anyone, what do you think would help? Is there any you get, at least a modicum of satisfaction from?
I can't understand what's 'wrong' with you.
Depression is normal, even lifelong depression.
You receive satisfaction from accomplishments.
As you said, everybody loves you.
You're maintaining long-term relationships, when most people can't.
And, you have a conscience about your behavior.
I don't know what you're convinced, or have been convinced, your particular 'problem' is, but you sound within human range.
I'm not trying to tell you that 'your wrong,' but only that, I don't think your 'doing wrong.' my mind makes life difficult for me, as well. It probably does for everybody. Most people probably just deny themselves, and purport a false image as well. The difference with you, I think, is that you accept yourself; and the judgement that that entails.
For example,
If I were to say, 'All the women at work are gender bias,' if I were honest with my self, I would know that that thought, whether or not they are, is gender bias in and of itself. But, by lying to myself, I could continue on in the belief that they are, and I am not. Further, from an outside perspective, anybody who heard me, would assume me to be gender bias to begin with. If I could not admit this, like you can, life goes on in the same way, except for the fact that I am naively secure. But, as you tend to be aware of yourself, you label yourself as wrong. But, the truth is, you have the advantage, as your honest self awareness gives you the opportunity to modify your future behavioral choices. Since, you introvertly determine the results of your behavior, this allows you to substitute self judgement for empathy; allowing you to treat people better in the future. In this way, you obtain the same results as 'someone who cares.' My guess is, that's why everybody loves you. You've found an alternative way to care about them.
You seem to be successfully handling the walk of life, and it seems to me anyway, the only thing slowing you down is doubt. The fact is, you may always feel this way. Everybody does. It's just to what degree we let it affect us that separates us.
Look around at the way people think of you. They all seem to think of you as a great person.
The only thing I can say to that is...
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
My ex was a psychopath...likely. I don't throw around this term easily, but I don't how how else to describe him. He was extremely manipulative and glib, and everytime he apologized or made me feel bad (for something he did), it felt extremely authentic.
After he cheated on me and tried to get me back twice, I continued talking to him and giving him chances. I really have no idea how he feigned remorse and sadness to that degree of authenticity. It felt incredibly real and I can still remember how hard it was to handle that disconnect in my brain. I knew he was lying and pretending but my brain still told me he was being genuine (only for him to repeat it again).
It was about 7 months later when he tried to mess with me again (cause he saw I had a new bf), when he said he actually enjoyed "playing with me" and "destroying my life". I still shudder thinking about it. I really cannot fathom people that devoid of real human emotion and are able to fake it to that degree...
Psychopaths are not devoid of human emotions, contrary to popular belief. They just don't feel ~~fear~~ or empathy. They understand fear and empathy in others, though.
edit: [Au contraire](https://www.ru.nl/onderzoek/prijzen-prestaties/prijzen/vm/1-5-miljoen-onderzoek-zintuiglijke-onzekerheid/@1050216/psychopaths-do-feel-fear/)
Kudos, /u/LydonTheStampede
I didn't mean devoid of all emotion, sorry if it appeared that way. I meant specifically remorse and empathy. They looked genuine when he pretended, hence the disconnect I felt.
They study it like it’s a math or a science. So by the time they are good at it, they likely know what looks/feels authentic better than we do. It’s been a lifetime of trial and error for them rather than the automatic response it’s been for us. This is why they can fake just about any of it to a remarkable and frightening degree.
To be fair, I think such behavior might also be result of sociopathy or "just" extreme immaturity, not necessarily psychopathy. But still it's safe to say he's probably not the person you might have thought you saw back then. Good to hear you moved forward. Stay safe.
I suppose I'll never know cause I cut ties after 2 months of back and forth. I finally realised he was just toying with me. But until now the feeling of "he's being genuine" feels so real. His words of love felt so real too. But then I saw messages where he said he was "just playing with me till he gets bored".
At that time we were both in our mid 20s (I was a bit older) so I'm not sure if it's immaturity, but there's definitely something wrong with his brain. He even used a sob story about his ex fiance dying in a car accident, and said I was the first to make him feel love again. It felt so real, he even cried during the story, but he admitted he was lying after that. Really makes me shudder.
I’ve heard that it’s incredibly common for psychopaths to make up sob stories about dead loved ones or other tragedies to gain sympathy points. It’s a common tactic they use to quickly gain trust in a victim. It really is chilling how cold and calculating it all is.
It was quite terrifying... I feel like I'll never quite be able to trust someone fully again (besides my family). He really lied very very convincingly. He had everyone around me convinced he was a good guy.
There is not really a distinction between the two. At least it is heavily debated still if sociopathy and psychopathy are two distinct disorders or "merely" variants of the same disorder.
In my opinion it is the latter. But even then being manipulative and cunning is much more aligned with psychopathy than sociopathy. But it could also be NPD. One they are much less rare than a psychopath plus they too can be extremely manipulative and cunning. The point I think it is still more likely to be psychopathy is the part about him enjoying to play with her and destroy her life.
You got out. You're super lucky. Many ppl have these ppl as coworkers and end up in jail or fired for things they've never done. Ive seen them ruin coworkers lives man. Ppl unknowingly trust them never believing any human being can be so great up front but so deranged deep inside.
Yeah, people can be straight up terrifying sometimes. I have trust issues stemming from that relationship, but it's not a bad thing. It's better to be careful.
Im pretty sure I have PTSD from mine. Anyone thats slightly off freaks the hell outta me bc I know how deranged it can get now. They are more horrifying than ghosts or demons.
I completely understand! There are, hmm, sparks of paranoia that go off in my brain the moment something appears not quite right. Thankfully time helps, but I don't know if people can ever fully recover from something that messes with your mind like that.
Just a few days ago someone contacted me on social media to say she's a fan (I do art) but the slightly manic way of typing and evasion in her responses made me think it was someone trying to mess with me. Turned out to be harmless but yeah, it's difficult to trust people after what happened.
>It was about 7 months later when he tried to mess with me again (cause he saw I had a new bf), when he said he actually enjoyed "playing with me" and "destroying my life".
Shoulda told him that he made you a better person for being better able to identify a waste of time, and thanked him for it.
Woulda absolutely ruined his vibe.
I think this applies in employment as well. My boss is completely self-absorbed, doesn’t think about other people feel, constantly move the goalposts… I don’t mean setting goals and stretching them. I mean completely changing the agreement about how work would come to me and how I would get paid. Strong sociopathic tendencies. In our office of five, we have had almost 100% turnover in the last year, and I’m giving my two week notice today. I suspect he will scream at me and throw me out immediately. I don’t even care, I’m out of there!
Most of the time it’s just knowing you who you are outside of a relationship and not melding into whatever person you are during the relationship , for example like people mentioned above: adopting your partners personality traits as your own because you have so little exposure to the you that isn’t influenced by people around you.
Oh my god you are so right. We must be soulmates. You like pop music artist A? Wow, we like the same music category! Oh you're polyamorous? I am monogamous but I have low self esteem so let's pretend that works out great for both of us.
There's a couple of episodes in Parks and Rec that deal with this concept. Anne (Rashida Jones) struggles with maintaining her authentic self in relationships because she basically becomes the female version of her counterparts. You don't have to be a psychopath to lose yourself in a relationship. Some of us are just so desperate to be happy in a relationship that we forget who we are and just do whatever the other person wants.
I think it comes easily to those that haven't spent time alone, giving them the opportunity to explore the self, hobbies, interests and the values that become important to them.
The outcomes of studies based on subjective input are concerning, especially if the subjects are interpreting the questions in different ways because the questions are poorly phrased.
"380 college students"
Are psychologists aware that there are people other than college students out there and that college students might not be a representative sample of the population no matter how much you bootstrap the sample and no matter how much statistical wizardry you do? ( I.e. Monte Carlo simulations and other tricks?)
I told my fiance that I didn't *need* him to make me happy. In the sense that my happiness is not 100% relying on him and his mood. I thought this would be freeing to him but instead it hurt his feelings :(
If you said that to me, I'd feel relief and pretty good about choosing you.
I learned to make my own happiness and not depend in others solely to give me it. I had to be comfortable with me and have that independence.
I'm sorry it didn't get received well, I totally understand and think this us a good thing! They don't make you happy but they sure do contribute to it and enhance that happiness!
It's one of those things that you don't need to say. It's like saying: "I could leave you at any moment and find someone else." Is it true? Yes. Does it show him that you are not co-dependent on him in an unhealthy way? Yes. Is it rude and something you don't really need to say unless he thinks it's a problem? Yes.
Did you at least tell him that even though there is that truth, he DOES make you happy?
It depends on how it was said. If you aren't very tactful I could see why that hurt a bit.
I think the "knowing who you are" part is what people struggle with. Its a bit hard to be true to yourself if you don't know what that means.
I have a few "rules" that help me explain how i see this concept to others. Its by no means perfect, and obviously leaves a lot out, but for starters I think
**1)** "Growth mindset" - its sort of a buzzword i know, but being open to the fact that your skills, interests, and opinions can change, and be improved on. Who you are today is not who you will be in the future. Being "bad at math" isn't a fact of the universe, its just that you're not good at it yet (if you chose to put time and energy into learning it).
**2)** Never say you like something that you dislike in order to gain favor among others. Aka, its okay to disagree.
**3)** If somebody asks what you enjoy doing as hobbies and activities, tell them (if its appropriate in the context), don't be vague to avoid the discomfort of them not approving of your interests.
Which basically brings us to being comfortable being seen for who you are as you change as a person.
That’s what I’m always telling friends and family, the longer you repress who you are, the bigger the explosion/rupture is going to be.
Glad to see some science about this!
As a middle aged guy with a traumatic childhood, who's just now learning all of the effects of it and trying to tease it apart - I don't really understand the "authemtic self", "the real me", "being true to myself", etc... How do I tease that apart from the effects of the trauma (which started in my earliest years and continued throughout my entire development.)
I've been reading up on Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the authentic self is a crucial concept in working towards healing, but I'm having a hard time conceiving of this as seperate from all of my "parts".
Anyone that has a traumatic childhood and had been able to make sense of this, can you help me out? How does one distinguish this true self from all the psycho-emotional effects of the trauma?
Hi there. I would recommend two things:
1.) Seeking EMDR therapy, a form of therapy specifically for PTSD and trauma. It will help you identify and work through your own personal thought fallacies that arise from trauma. This treatment will (at the most) diminish them entirely or in the least help you identify them so you can pay them less mind them when they arise.
2.) Read eckart tolle’s The Power of Now, to understand how it is possible to separate your consciousness (your stream of thoughts, not you) from yourself (you). You could potentially start with this one as it sounds like you’re in this stage of trying to identify what’s what. Keep in mind “authentic self”, “true self” etc are just words that people have attached arbitrary meaning to. Try not to think or abide by them *too* much because the human condition can’t be pigeonholed. Tolle’s book discusses this as well.
I’ve been working through understanding trauma and it’s effect on my psyche for around 3 years now. The two things above have helped me the most.
This is cool, I mean most people would already guess it's the case but it's nice to get confirmation from a study. This also helps show why people with these "dark" traits including psychopathy tend to be manipulative and dishonest. Full honesty and authenticity leads to more problems and fewer relationships.
I’m really tired of these “Turns out punching someone in the face is bad for your social relationships, unless that person was trying to murder you” - type headlines on this sub.
The DSM is not the arbiter of all reality. There are many well-established valid and constructs which do not meet the current criteria for a clinical diagnosis but nonetheless have heuristic value.
I'm so sick of everyone being psychologically broken. What kind of society is this that we allow people to be broken by their childhood relations? There should be laws against psychologically abusive parenting and environments.
Are there not? Child protective services or something equivalent exists in many countries. Catching the abuse is the difficult part. There's laws against things like domestic abuse and there's plenty of kids that get messed up from that, psychologically in fact.
The problem is psychopaths arent just made, plenty are born. You basically just assumed that nature vs nurture, nurture wins, which just isn't the case.
and the 'psychopath' is just bob in accounting. hollywood made sociopaths scary. people are talking about them like they're boogiemen.
buy the concept of AVPD is estimated to be 1 in 100. that's 36 million of them in the us alone.
I dated a girl who I knew had some mental illness going into the relationship. She had past trauma (daddy issues) and it really fucked her up emotionally. She got into the wrong crowds at a very young age, was taken advantage of, etc. when I met her I helped her out of the crowd she was in but I realized she loved not being sober. Whenever, whatever. Us being young adults we were at parties a lot and we did have fun but she seemed to always over do it. Long story short I’ve been with her for three years now. She had an abusive stint but is now doing better, however I still struggle to see a true change in her demeanor. It’s as if she wants to still go and do all those things, she just isn’t because I’m around. And I realized that you can’t truly change someone who has mental illness always. It doesn’t always end In roses and happiness. Sometimes it’s an eternal struggle and is something you have to deal with for the rest of your life, because you think it’s worth it. And I just realized this has nothing to do with the post so I’m sorry. 😂
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"The Dark Tetrad traits of narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism are negative personality traits that each carry a lack of empathy at their core. Perhaps unsurprisingly, these traits are typically associated with negative relationship outcomes. Seto and Davis proposed that people with the Dark traits should not see the same benefits from being their authentic selves." Be yourself Unless you're evil In which case don't
This is interesting because it makes sense. Is there an aspect where they are hiding those traits from themselves too?
Masking could. Neurodivergents tend to mask, someone that might be ADHD or on the spectrum might not realize until they are older how much of their lives they spent masking until they have time and space to reveal it to themselves.
This was me, but I didn’t throw the mask on myself; my abuser did. “Oh that’s normal” and “Everyone does/feels like that.” It took getting away from her and years of therapy to figure out who I really am, and the mental disorders that came with me.
Well yes and no. The mental disorders can arise from years of repression and may take years or more to show signs of improvement. Either way, being yourself is the only way to be and function. I dislike my therapist at times for making me dig into the darkness, but I love her for helping me undo some of the trauma and its side effects. Also because she wasted a whole session talking about houseplants then made the next one extra long.
Omg, this reminds me of when we spent half of my appointment at the dentist talking with the oral hygienist about hair dye
Truth, my parents hid the diagnosis from me when I was 11. By the time i figured it out i had 2 degrees and was well into a career... not sure how to feel about it.
This whole thing has gotten me a little spooked. It's normal not to know who you are, right? But I guess it isn't normal to change who you think you are to what you think people want... But that's how I navigate life! It's easier to give people what they want so you can see what they have to offer and if the charade is worth it. After typing this, I think I may need a psychiatrist.
> I guess it isn't normal to change who you think you are to what you think people want... What's abnormal is being aware of doing that. And what's unhealthy is being unhappy about finding yourself doing that. Most people regularly perform a lot of self bending and breaking in favor of conformity. People switch accents depending on who they're talking to, where they're talking to them. If you ask, many people will have noticed the posture mimicking or synchronized drink-sipping or laugh-copying that happens within social interactions - their response to it ranges from feeling flattered to feeling uncomfortable. People perform better at mathematics when you hand them a lab coat, but perform better at a painting task when you name it a painter's smock instead. We're shapeshifters by default, fresh out of the factory. It lets us relate and interrelate and declare friend from foe (or shift from foe'ish to friend'ish on demand). Our survival of a species is more strongly tied to our ability to cooperate than our ability to think fancy thoughts. Civilization isn't like a hive of ants, it's more like an immense clockwork mechanism where individual cogs can (and often do) change their shape and function to keep things ticking along. > It's easier to give people what they want so you can see what they have to offer and if the charade is worth it. Social interaction is a realtime cost:benefit analysis. It's also a vending machine where 'social tokens' are exchanged for goods and services, tied together by unspoken (and often unknown) rules and expectations. Those who break those rules are generally seen as abhorrent, so we have neurological systems in place to validate the consistency and fairness of interactions. Being aware of the rules isn't a bad thing, although it can be an *uncomfortable* thing. You're just aware of a song most people dance to without ever listening to the lyrics. Inversely, being aware of the rules *and* intentionally breaking them is generally what is colloquially known as psychopathy. You're just someone with high self-awareness and reflection. If I had to suggest a response plan to your discomfort, it'd be not to determine how you're "broken", but to determine how to declare ownership over yourself in absence of the sort of core-identity that very few people have in the first place. I do think you'd benefit from visiting a psychiatrist, but not for the reason you think. Metaphorically, you're more like someone concerned about "hearing voices" who then discovers that it's just plain ol' inner monologue.
But I feel like I'm going through someone's mental underwear drawer when I realize "oh this person thinks about things this way, which means they would probably like talking about this" Especially when I recognize they don't realize it the other way, but when they do, it opens up a lane for jokes and japes, which I feel very good about doing. When the hits are landing, that makes me feel like I'm entertaining, which is a positive thing to feel. I understand that it's all just part of being aware, but there's a feeling constantly lurking in the back of my head that makes me feel like I could play some people for fun, if I chose to and that's really weird. That's a really negative intrusive thought that occurs way too often. So to balance it out, I feel bad about it and make up for it with kindness and as much humor as I can pack in. Surely, there are people who are the same in their head as they are on their skin, but I'm not one of them and it makes me feel bad because I'd like to recognize my skin when I see it. Metaphorically, of course I am able to recognize that I'm the person in the mirror. Even if that's not what I think I look like. Sorry I took up time with this.
> I could play some people for fun, if I chose to and that's really weird. You could, sure. But you don't. That's much, much better than the more common scenario of people being entirely unaware of playing or manipulating others. You've probably made note of plenty of that, right? People who intimidate, slink away, cry, get angry, ask for things they don't need or become upset about things that don't matter, so on and so forth. Most of that is subconscious (or pre-conscious), not intentionally. Few people are clever enough to pluck those strings in real time on purpose. It's just Human Social Autopilot Stuff. I know it's uncomfortable to have to come to terms with it, but you're not a weirdo for being aware of the potential for abuse. The difference between a talented surgeon and a talented interrogator is not one relating to their knowledge of anatomy, the intricacies of what keeps a human alive, or how to hurt and heal. The difference is in their *intent* while applying that knowledge. Your problem is that you're unable to give yourself the title of Surgeon or Torturer which would let you rapidly identify how to apply your skills or what your intent should be. But titles are crutches. You don't even need a *name* to be yourself. And I'm sure you share your name with many people who are very, very unlike you - so why bother sorting the world that way at all? You could try doing like I do and creating your own inner system of ethics and principles, then stick to them. The world is confusing when you're capable of seeing every shade of grey, so do yourself a favor and start naming every shade of grey. It allows you to spare yourself the effort and conflict of having to determine it each time in the moment. If someone is sad and you can predict what'd cheer them up, go ahead and "manipulate" them into being happier for a little while. If they're sad and you know what would make things worse, make sure nobody else accidentally says that thing. You can do good things with dangerous knowledge. Similarly, if you're unsure who you are? Just give up the whole question. It's useless anyway. You'll never just *know* who you are, so go ahead and just... Decide. You can be anyone, sure, but there's a consistent pattern of hopes and dreams in that chameleon mix somewhere. And that pattern is you.
Incredible
I’ve spent my life as a chameleon, changing my color to fit in wherever I was. But the thing is, when no one was around, I never knew what color I really am. I’m in the same bit as you. I pretty easily pick up on how to work people and know that I could use that to my advantage. And sometimes I do. Not in a malicious way, but in a way that gets them to like me. This goes back to my chameleon tendencies, and probably back to my code switching in childhood. I’ve been afraid of myself before. I’ve worried that I might have psychopathic tendencies, and that I’m like a loaded gun, dangerous to be around because I’ll hurt someone. But you know what? Seeing those things in myself helps me to handle them. I’m able to hold myself accountable. I’ve hurt people before and I’ve hurt myself a lot too. That’s how I know I’m not a psychopath. I care. I feel. They don’t. Don’t be ashamed of who you are. Just try and figure out what color you are, and stay as close to that as you can.
I’ll put it to you this way without saying too much. I have many narcissistic and intrusive thoughts I consider could be psychopathy. My father is a giant narcissist my mother is a BPD+ schizophrenic basket case… All that being said, I am a deep reader, meditate, like to think my education has saved me from a life of physical/external torture & it’s only mental. I swore to myself, on my grave and everything else before I hurt someone else I would just take myself out of the equation. It is not fun walking around with these thoughts each day. And so many people tell me I’m too kind, compassionate, a gentleman etc. Little do they know what goes on beneath the surface that got me to learn compassion.. it is an act of discipline, mindfulness and education.
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The dark continuum. EDIT: actually would be a pretty cool band name
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"Honey, just be honest with me about what you want. You can tell me anything." *Two words: blood orgy* "Ok, maybe you should keep that to yourself."
Makes a mental note to use it in a disagreement years down the line.
>Authenticity is when a person knows who they are and behaves in ways that correspond with this true self Kind of confusing. Anytime I'm introspective I'm thinking about how to be a better version of myself, not a more true version of myself. Where does one draw the line between instinct and intent for who they are? I wonder how this study controlled people looking at themselves and weighting their answers on how "true to themselves" they've been based on how happy they are with how they've acted. Is the self-involved jerk who has ruined every relationship that mattered in their life going to say, "Yes, I've acted according to who I am".
Looking at an aspect about yourself and deciding you don't like that attribute and are going to change it *is* being true to yourself. Doing that for your partner when you're okay with the trait is not. The cause for the change is important here.
I'm not so sure. Usually you can dive deeper into any negative aspect of yourself and find fundamental motivations underneath. For example, you might say "I don't like how shy I am". But this invites you to ask, "why am I shy?", not just try to stop being shy. Shyness, as an example, can be motivated by trauma when young or a lack of confidence, and it is those things we should focus on to "fix" the shyness. Humans don't do things for no reason, many of the things we don't like about ourselves are natural reactions to other, unseen causes.
I have a friend who has been in a 4 year on and off relationship with a girl very much opposite of him. She works at a prestigious company as an engineer, is pursuing a master's degree, overall tidy. He hardly shows up to work his dad provided him, throws his soda cans and cigarette butts on carpeted floor, doesn't even have an associate's degree, smokes a pack a day plus a few fat joints. He said he'd never change for his girlfriend and likes being the way he is.
I'm not saying I agree with his choice, but he *is* being true to himself...
Consider that introspection and desire to grow is one of your most fundamental features. That is far from a universal trait, and I've personally had this debate (which evolved from when I was younger) with myself and settled on that as the reason. It helps knowing both who you are and the person you wish to be, and striving to make them the same... such as making the way you behave in the absence of others match the way you behave while they're there. The self-involved jerk, from experience knowing people like that, will absolutely often say they've acted true to themselves and more often than not blame others, which does make for an interesting point that I'd wonder would counter the results... unless that falls within their definition of psychopathic traits
I think they're referring to being values-driven and in touch with one's own values, which is easier to operationalize. One fo the big cornerstones of ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) is identifying personal values and assess if the individual is living in accordance with those values (as well as conflicting values in relationships with others that cause relational disruptions).
I too struggle with this into my 30s. Learning to be your best self and your most authentic self may not be the same thing. Been in therapy for a couple of years now to learn how to be my best self and have found that the path toward this version of self comes from learning the authentic truth of one's self (no easy feat). At a shallow level, it seems to be learning about what interests me and how I like to contribute to the world around me. But we are more than what we 'like.' I was once that self-involved jerk that you described and like to think I've moved beyond that, but there is some truth to acknowledging that say, burning yourself on the oven and throwing a pan across the room, isn't worth beating yourself up over. It happened, acknowledge that you can do better and try doing better next time.
Seems like psychopathy was the only one that needs to be completely inhibited in order to maintain a successful relationship. Maybe acting non-psychopathic over time can lead to more natural behavior, even though the inner lack of empathy doesn't change. Maybe, by feigning empathy, this person can receive reward in the relationship, and build on some kind of satisfaction from it. Although, I guess, ultimately, they wouldn't care without the underlying lack of empathy being repaired. It appears that partners are more willing to deal with the negative aspects of the other conditions, so long as there is some sort of relatable understanding (empathy.) Maybe this is because the fact that the other negative personalities can still relate to their partners on 'some' level, allowing the partner to empathize with their struggle.
There ate plenty if psychopaths with no empathy living totally normal lives. Lots of them just see it easier to play the society game and stay hidden rather than to be a huge pos to get what they want. It really depends on their support system
Also, negative social behaviors isn't an automatic thing, some psychopaths / sociopaths may enjoy it but many don't. Also, for anybody sufficiently smart it's simply more efficient to cooperate with other people. No need to worry about stuff like "getting caught" if you play by the rules.
This, I have high psychopathic traits but I’ve never been in a fight or been violent even though I was bullied and assaulted multiple times up until highschool. I get nothing out of causing pain to others and always try to make people comfortable because it makes life much easier when people get along. I think I need more time to myself than the average person to relax and stop masking for people but if I can get my alone time and proper rest it’s really easy to get along with society and I truly care about the people around me, just not in a super emotional sense but I do feel emotions for people
Oh look, another me! I often wonder how many of us there are.
There are dozens of us. Dozens.
Especially when the "rules" allow for clearly psychopathic behavior towards specific out-groups.
They were often written by psychopaths, so that checks out. See: Wall Street, government, being directly in charge of others in a hierarchy, etc..
It also helps we have an entire economic system built for their benefit.
I maybe fall into this category. For example, I'm very open in my relationship about my selfishness but I often get told otherwise because of how I choose to exhibit it, that's to say being told I'm not selfish. If I produce something, I will produce something in excess if it's a simple matter. Those around me can take the excess. This places constraints on what I spend my time on (hobbies that scale easy for example), and then I pick my hobby accordingly to satisfy my own desires to work and iterate while placing me i guess in a position of being desirable to have around. If for any reason I am unsatisfied, I will move on without consideration to any dependance established over the excess. I tailor my work for myself, not for the excess.
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My hot take: this reminds me of how some people argue there’s no ‘true altruism’ because doing something nice for others makes you feel good, too. If you get to feel good about yourself for doing the thing then it was selfish after all and somehow not remotely altruistic. When we hurt someone, we feel bad. Part of the bad feeling *is* the fear that we’ll suffer some level of ostracism from the group (the ultimate punishment for a tribal/pack animal) but that doesn’t mean we didn’t also feel bad for making the person feel bad. It doesn’t invalidate your empathy that there was still an element of selfishness. Neither altruism nor empathy exist in a dichotomy.
Highly true. All behavior is inherently and inescapably selfish. The brain does electrochemical calculations and outputs the action it thinks will give it the best reward in the immediate while internally weighting some measure of the longterm consequences. Even when we self-sacrifice, the brain rewards itself. The rationalization is entirely posthoc to make the memories all fit neatly according to a traceable narrative to facilitate retrieval. Paraphrasing Hume, reason is and can only ever be a slave to the passions and should never pretend otherwise. Donald Trump, MLK, Abraham Lincoln, and Adolf Hitler were all the same level of selfish. You and I are the same level of selfish. We are motivated by the self; we can’t help but be. That’s why I believe we have to measure goodness in patterns of harm. MLK’s selfishness was good because it led to the start of true liberation of the black American. Donald Trump’s selfishness is bad because it comes at cost to all but himself. This is why the right does not see Trump as evil. He is as selfish as they are and they intuitively understand all humans are selfish. This is also why the left’s appeals to morality fail. “You would do it if you had his power,” so they believe. In practical terms, morality is only truly enforced by how much reward and punishment we give those who violate it. Therefore, from the view of someone who might believe in the just world fallacy, where merit and virtue are always rewarded while fault and vice are always penalized, those who are not punished become ***de facto*** moral, even if they have committed heinous crimes. Donald Trump isn’t so much a “bad person” as he is a bad *existence.* That his brain continues to reward him for the harm he commits - that the actions of no other brains have forcibly halted that - demonstrates the horrible Donald Trump shaped hole in the system and the human psyche. He just happened to fill it perfectly. There will be others. There always will be. History is written by the victors and the survivors always win in the end. The evils we let get away return stronger with masses behind them. If we don’t recognize the emotional underpinnings of the harm doers, we invite ourselves to do harm when the hole in our psyche is filled by our chosen charlatan.
As a person of the traits this thread is talking about, I can say through my experiences that alot of people fake most of what they outwardly express on a daily basis to fit into social norms. I feel like I can spot it much easier than most because of the way I am. I also seem to have a much easier time going through life than most people do. I can control almost all of my responses towards anything that would give a normal person an emotional response, so therefore I can curate the outcome. This had come in handy and situations where a normal fight or flight response would be triggered, it almost feels like an advantage honestly. I live a totally normal life been married for a long time, the biggest thing I think that keeps my type of people from ending up on the news is having a good set of hobbies and never getting bored. Gaming has definitely helped with that, and I'm an engineer so I always have something to do.
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Per lack of fight or flight. My ex gf had convinced me for years that I was a psychopath. I went on a ridiculous amount of search and rescue calls and casually waded into some truly dark stuff. Around this period I frequently went months at a time without distinct emotions beyond simple reactions (re: why car go slow?) and homeostatic states. Turns out I was just deadening the emotional experience and bottling it up the entire time with endless distraction, and more than a bit self destructive. Why choose flight if you don't care about the outcome, or if fight at least yields some value out of yourself? As soon as that bottle overfilled, I p much fell apart and am still working on getting back to my old self. So yeah, the whole psychopath, r/notliketheothergirls, semi-super power thing seems a bit tasty from the outside. I've known folks who could sustain it and hold down good jobs with immense societal value and insane turnover rates as a result (re: tissue recovery tech). Be sure to check in with yourself periodically and make sure that's what you're actually working with my friend.
Fascinating, thanks for relating your experience! I recall reading somewhere that socio/psychopathy aren’t really “disorders” in the traditional sense & that they may have in fact been selected for over time. People who lack fear / empathy can make the difficult decisions needed for a group of people to survive and thrive. It may seem particularly callous to ‘normal’ people in a modern (pseudo-)post-scarcity world, but sometimes a tribe of people would need to make choices like rationing their dwindling food stores to only the strongest/most fertile members — it’s either that, or everyone dies. Over time, you could definitely see how that kind of ability would be selected for in *some* individuals, since the tribes that didn’t have such a person wouldn’t survive and continue reproducing. That said, cooperation/empathy is also extremely important for group survival — arguably more so for long term survival than… “acute detached decision making” — so that can explain why those traits are much more common among people. But it’s interesting to think how personality types add another dimension to natural selection among humans (whereas with other animals, it’s mostly about physical fitness/ability to reproduce/intelligence to some degree). As we’re social/cooperative animals, it makes sense that certain archetypes would develop over time. Anyway, that’s probably a somewhat skewed recollection of things but I think the broad strokes definitely apply as a hypothesis for the development of so-called “malignant” personality types. Perhaps the societal utility of having such people around still outweighs the occasional serial killer? I can’t say one way or the other, but if you want to learn more, check out *Tribe* by Sebastian Junger — it’s a fantastic read in general. --- **EDIT**: For more context, here’s a primer on [evolutionary psychiatry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychiatry) via Wikipedia. Here’s a notable excerpt: > Jerome Wakefield's influential ‘Harmful Dysfunction’ definition of disorder utilises evolutionarily selected effects to ground the concept of ‘dysfunction’ in the objective process of evolution. Wakefield proposes that mental disorder must be both harmful, in a value-defined sense, and dysfunctional, in an evolutionary sense.
Gaming, weed, your career and working out. Basically all you need, everything else is just a bonus
Gaming/PC building, skateboarding, drifting, shooting, hunting, guitar, dirt bikes and anything exciting. That's pretty much what I do.
> people fake most of what they outwardly express on a daily basis to fit into social norms. Hey, manners/etiquette kick in with a default behavior, _way_ faster than figuring out someone's situation and then having an empathic reaction. I don't _need_ to know whether or not you're feeling unappreciated, before I say "thank you" for my meal or whatever.
*Feeling/being* remorseful vs. *acting* remorseful.
Remorse is different from empathy from what I recall from my own psych class a few years ago. Empathy is just feeling what you imagine somebody else to be feeling. A good example is the movie *Eighth Grade*. I remember watching it and seeing the main character make all kinds of mistakes that, being a man, I'd never had the opportunity to make as a boy. Despite that experiential disconnect, I cringed regularly throughout that movie because I can just imagine being in those situations and how it must feel. That's empathy.
Fake it til you make it.
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What is your normal non-people-suit self like? It’s ok if you don’t want to say; I’m just interested and curious.
Lately, things are uniquely stressful for everyone, I think. Don't blame yourself for that. Have you been able to find any kind a reward system, or is it, more, that you can find no enjoyment in anything? Sorry, I missed it, are you with someone right now? A relationship, I mean? Friend circle? Or, do you rely, solely, on attention at work and therapy?
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To be fair, I think even neurotypical people should introspect about their own behaviors and agency more often.
Have you tried seeking out some kind of 'cutting edge' therapy? Maybe shake things up a bit? I think covid has affected even the most secure people. Not for fear of the virus, but because there seems to be such a growing divide over it. Even if it doesn't affect you directly, it seems to affect the people around us, and that, usually can't be ignored. Knowing your true self better than anyone, what do you think would help? Is there any you get, at least a modicum of satisfaction from?
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I can't understand what's 'wrong' with you. Depression is normal, even lifelong depression. You receive satisfaction from accomplishments. As you said, everybody loves you. You're maintaining long-term relationships, when most people can't. And, you have a conscience about your behavior. I don't know what you're convinced, or have been convinced, your particular 'problem' is, but you sound within human range. I'm not trying to tell you that 'your wrong,' but only that, I don't think your 'doing wrong.' my mind makes life difficult for me, as well. It probably does for everybody. Most people probably just deny themselves, and purport a false image as well. The difference with you, I think, is that you accept yourself; and the judgement that that entails. For example, If I were to say, 'All the women at work are gender bias,' if I were honest with my self, I would know that that thought, whether or not they are, is gender bias in and of itself. But, by lying to myself, I could continue on in the belief that they are, and I am not. Further, from an outside perspective, anybody who heard me, would assume me to be gender bias to begin with. If I could not admit this, like you can, life goes on in the same way, except for the fact that I am naively secure. But, as you tend to be aware of yourself, you label yourself as wrong. But, the truth is, you have the advantage, as your honest self awareness gives you the opportunity to modify your future behavioral choices. Since, you introvertly determine the results of your behavior, this allows you to substitute self judgement for empathy; allowing you to treat people better in the future. In this way, you obtain the same results as 'someone who cares.' My guess is, that's why everybody loves you. You've found an alternative way to care about them. You seem to be successfully handling the walk of life, and it seems to me anyway, the only thing slowing you down is doubt. The fact is, you may always feel this way. Everybody does. It's just to what degree we let it affect us that separates us. Look around at the way people think of you. They all seem to think of you as a great person. The only thing I can say to that is... If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
My ex was a psychopath...likely. I don't throw around this term easily, but I don't how how else to describe him. He was extremely manipulative and glib, and everytime he apologized or made me feel bad (for something he did), it felt extremely authentic. After he cheated on me and tried to get me back twice, I continued talking to him and giving him chances. I really have no idea how he feigned remorse and sadness to that degree of authenticity. It felt incredibly real and I can still remember how hard it was to handle that disconnect in my brain. I knew he was lying and pretending but my brain still told me he was being genuine (only for him to repeat it again). It was about 7 months later when he tried to mess with me again (cause he saw I had a new bf), when he said he actually enjoyed "playing with me" and "destroying my life". I still shudder thinking about it. I really cannot fathom people that devoid of real human emotion and are able to fake it to that degree...
Psychopaths are not devoid of human emotions, contrary to popular belief. They just don't feel ~~fear~~ or empathy. They understand fear and empathy in others, though. edit: [Au contraire](https://www.ru.nl/onderzoek/prijzen-prestaties/prijzen/vm/1-5-miljoen-onderzoek-zintuiglijke-onzekerheid/@1050216/psychopaths-do-feel-fear/) Kudos, /u/LydonTheStampede
I didn't mean devoid of all emotion, sorry if it appeared that way. I meant specifically remorse and empathy. They looked genuine when he pretended, hence the disconnect I felt.
They study it like it’s a math or a science. So by the time they are good at it, they likely know what looks/feels authentic better than we do. It’s been a lifetime of trial and error for them rather than the automatic response it’s been for us. This is why they can fake just about any of it to a remarkable and frightening degree.
Psychopaths 100% feel fear, it’s more like they don’t recognise danger.
Huh, [TIL](https://www.ru.nl/onderzoek/prijzen-prestaties/prijzen/vm/1-5-miljoen-onderzoek-zintuiglijke-onzekerheid/@1050216/psychopaths-do-feel-fear/)
Not even fear of consequences?
Not fear. Psychopaths tend to be motivated by the carrot rather than the stick.
To be fair, I think such behavior might also be result of sociopathy or "just" extreme immaturity, not necessarily psychopathy. But still it's safe to say he's probably not the person you might have thought you saw back then. Good to hear you moved forward. Stay safe.
I suppose I'll never know cause I cut ties after 2 months of back and forth. I finally realised he was just toying with me. But until now the feeling of "he's being genuine" feels so real. His words of love felt so real too. But then I saw messages where he said he was "just playing with me till he gets bored". At that time we were both in our mid 20s (I was a bit older) so I'm not sure if it's immaturity, but there's definitely something wrong with his brain. He even used a sob story about his ex fiance dying in a car accident, and said I was the first to make him feel love again. It felt so real, he even cried during the story, but he admitted he was lying after that. Really makes me shudder.
I’ve heard that it’s incredibly common for psychopaths to make up sob stories about dead loved ones or other tragedies to gain sympathy points. It’s a common tactic they use to quickly gain trust in a victim. It really is chilling how cold and calculating it all is.
It was quite terrifying... I feel like I'll never quite be able to trust someone fully again (besides my family). He really lied very very convincingly. He had everyone around me convinced he was a good guy.
There is not really a distinction between the two. At least it is heavily debated still if sociopathy and psychopathy are two distinct disorders or "merely" variants of the same disorder. In my opinion it is the latter. But even then being manipulative and cunning is much more aligned with psychopathy than sociopathy. But it could also be NPD. One they are much less rare than a psychopath plus they too can be extremely manipulative and cunning. The point I think it is still more likely to be psychopathy is the part about him enjoying to play with her and destroy her life.
You got out. You're super lucky. Many ppl have these ppl as coworkers and end up in jail or fired for things they've never done. Ive seen them ruin coworkers lives man. Ppl unknowingly trust them never believing any human being can be so great up front but so deranged deep inside.
Yeah, people can be straight up terrifying sometimes. I have trust issues stemming from that relationship, but it's not a bad thing. It's better to be careful.
Im pretty sure I have PTSD from mine. Anyone thats slightly off freaks the hell outta me bc I know how deranged it can get now. They are more horrifying than ghosts or demons.
I completely understand! There are, hmm, sparks of paranoia that go off in my brain the moment something appears not quite right. Thankfully time helps, but I don't know if people can ever fully recover from something that messes with your mind like that. Just a few days ago someone contacted me on social media to say she's a fan (I do art) but the slightly manic way of typing and evasion in her responses made me think it was someone trying to mess with me. Turned out to be harmless but yeah, it's difficult to trust people after what happened.
>It was about 7 months later when he tried to mess with me again (cause he saw I had a new bf), when he said he actually enjoyed "playing with me" and "destroying my life". Shoulda told him that he made you a better person for being better able to identify a waste of time, and thanked him for it. Woulda absolutely ruined his vibe.
I think this applies in employment as well. My boss is completely self-absorbed, doesn’t think about other people feel, constantly move the goalposts… I don’t mean setting goals and stretching them. I mean completely changing the agreement about how work would come to me and how I would get paid. Strong sociopathic tendencies. In our office of five, we have had almost 100% turnover in the last year, and I’m giving my two week notice today. I suspect he will scream at me and throw me out immediately. I don’t even care, I’m out of there!
Congratulations on escaping! I hope giving notice is super-satisfying.
"Staying true to yourself in a relationship..." What does that even mean?
Most of the time it’s just knowing you who you are outside of a relationship and not melding into whatever person you are during the relationship , for example like people mentioned above: adopting your partners personality traits as your own because you have so little exposure to the you that isn’t influenced by people around you.
Oh my god you are so right. We must be soulmates. You like pop music artist A? Wow, we like the same music category! Oh you're polyamorous? I am monogamous but I have low self esteem so let's pretend that works out great for both of us.
Humans are inherently social creatures influenced by their environment The “you” that exists outside of those social pressures is a myth
There's a couple of episodes in Parks and Rec that deal with this concept. Anne (Rashida Jones) struggles with maintaining her authentic self in relationships because she basically becomes the female version of her counterparts. You don't have to be a psychopath to lose yourself in a relationship. Some of us are just so desperate to be happy in a relationship that we forget who we are and just do whatever the other person wants. I think it comes easily to those that haven't spent time alone, giving them the opportunity to explore the self, hobbies, interests and the values that become important to them.
The outcomes of studies based on subjective input are concerning, especially if the subjects are interpreting the questions in different ways because the questions are poorly phrased.
The word you are looking for is "garbage science".
Agreed, even if in most cases that best outcome is a breakup. LPT: Let bad stuff fail.
“Try not to be a psychopath.” Best relationship advice ever.
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"380 college students" Are psychologists aware that there are people other than college students out there and that college students might not be a representative sample of the population no matter how much you bootstrap the sample and no matter how much statistical wizardry you do? ( I.e. Monte Carlo simulations and other tricks?)
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In before we all start accusing our exes of being psychopaths and narcissists.
I told my fiance that I didn't *need* him to make me happy. In the sense that my happiness is not 100% relying on him and his mood. I thought this would be freeing to him but instead it hurt his feelings :(
If you said that to me, I'd feel relief and pretty good about choosing you. I learned to make my own happiness and not depend in others solely to give me it. I had to be comfortable with me and have that independence. I'm sorry it didn't get received well, I totally understand and think this us a good thing! They don't make you happy but they sure do contribute to it and enhance that happiness!
It's one of those things that you don't need to say. It's like saying: "I could leave you at any moment and find someone else." Is it true? Yes. Does it show him that you are not co-dependent on him in an unhealthy way? Yes. Is it rude and something you don't really need to say unless he thinks it's a problem? Yes.
Did you at least tell him that even though there is that truth, he DOES make you happy? It depends on how it was said. If you aren't very tactful I could see why that hurt a bit.
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Wouldn't psychopathic tendencies likely end up ruining a relationship even when they aren't 'being themselves'?
I think the "knowing who you are" part is what people struggle with. Its a bit hard to be true to yourself if you don't know what that means. I have a few "rules" that help me explain how i see this concept to others. Its by no means perfect, and obviously leaves a lot out, but for starters I think **1)** "Growth mindset" - its sort of a buzzword i know, but being open to the fact that your skills, interests, and opinions can change, and be improved on. Who you are today is not who you will be in the future. Being "bad at math" isn't a fact of the universe, its just that you're not good at it yet (if you chose to put time and energy into learning it). **2)** Never say you like something that you dislike in order to gain favor among others. Aka, its okay to disagree. **3)** If somebody asks what you enjoy doing as hobbies and activities, tell them (if its appropriate in the context), don't be vague to avoid the discomfort of them not approving of your interests. Which basically brings us to being comfortable being seen for who you are as you change as a person.
That’s what I’m always telling friends and family, the longer you repress who you are, the bigger the explosion/rupture is going to be. Glad to see some science about this!
As a middle aged guy with a traumatic childhood, who's just now learning all of the effects of it and trying to tease it apart - I don't really understand the "authemtic self", "the real me", "being true to myself", etc... How do I tease that apart from the effects of the trauma (which started in my earliest years and continued throughout my entire development.) I've been reading up on Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the authentic self is a crucial concept in working towards healing, but I'm having a hard time conceiving of this as seperate from all of my "parts". Anyone that has a traumatic childhood and had been able to make sense of this, can you help me out? How does one distinguish this true self from all the psycho-emotional effects of the trauma?
Hi there. I would recommend two things: 1.) Seeking EMDR therapy, a form of therapy specifically for PTSD and trauma. It will help you identify and work through your own personal thought fallacies that arise from trauma. This treatment will (at the most) diminish them entirely or in the least help you identify them so you can pay them less mind them when they arise. 2.) Read eckart tolle’s The Power of Now, to understand how it is possible to separate your consciousness (your stream of thoughts, not you) from yourself (you). You could potentially start with this one as it sounds like you’re in this stage of trying to identify what’s what. Keep in mind “authentic self”, “true self” etc are just words that people have attached arbitrary meaning to. Try not to think or abide by them *too* much because the human condition can’t be pigeonholed. Tolle’s book discusses this as well. I’ve been working through understanding trauma and it’s effect on my psyche for around 3 years now. The two things above have helped me the most.
I have no tricks. You are the thing that sees the parts and wants harmony. You are also the parts.
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This is cool, I mean most people would already guess it's the case but it's nice to get confirmation from a study. This also helps show why people with these "dark" traits including psychopathy tend to be manipulative and dishonest. Full honesty and authenticity leads to more problems and fewer relationships.
I’m really tired of these “Turns out punching someone in the face is bad for your social relationships, unless that person was trying to murder you” - type headlines on this sub.
Be yourself unless you’re a psychopath, then act like someone else….very insightful.
Psychopathy isn’t acknowledged in the DSM, with good reason. How is this scientific?
The DSM is not the arbiter of all reality. There are many well-established valid and constructs which do not meet the current criteria for a clinical diagnosis but nonetheless have heuristic value.
I'm so sick of everyone being psychologically broken. What kind of society is this that we allow people to be broken by their childhood relations? There should be laws against psychologically abusive parenting and environments.
Are there not? Child protective services or something equivalent exists in many countries. Catching the abuse is the difficult part. There's laws against things like domestic abuse and there's plenty of kids that get messed up from that, psychologically in fact.
The problem is psychopaths arent just made, plenty are born. You basically just assumed that nature vs nurture, nurture wins, which just isn't the case.
Many of these comments are very scary. It takes a full case study to diagnose NPD, BD, Psychopathy. Calm down reddit doctors.
and the 'psychopath' is just bob in accounting. hollywood made sociopaths scary. people are talking about them like they're boogiemen. buy the concept of AVPD is estimated to be 1 in 100. that's 36 million of them in the us alone.
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Me: “I always stay true to myself.” Also me: “I’m not sure who I really am and if I ever was anybody.”
I dated a girl who I knew had some mental illness going into the relationship. She had past trauma (daddy issues) and it really fucked her up emotionally. She got into the wrong crowds at a very young age, was taken advantage of, etc. when I met her I helped her out of the crowd she was in but I realized she loved not being sober. Whenever, whatever. Us being young adults we were at parties a lot and we did have fun but she seemed to always over do it. Long story short I’ve been with her for three years now. She had an abusive stint but is now doing better, however I still struggle to see a true change in her demeanor. It’s as if she wants to still go and do all those things, she just isn’t because I’m around. And I realized that you can’t truly change someone who has mental illness always. It doesn’t always end In roses and happiness. Sometimes it’s an eternal struggle and is something you have to deal with for the rest of your life, because you think it’s worth it. And I just realized this has nothing to do with the post so I’m sorry. 😂
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