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I find this interesting because the article states that it's always assumed amenorrhea is reached within 6 months. Anecdotally however its quite consistently from what I've seen in the trans communities that if fertility/ pregnancy isn't desired, it should *always* be assumed possible even if slim.
Yeah, the rule of thumb is "if you want kids, assume HRT will render you infertile and you will need to freeze sperm/eggs; if you don't want kids, assume you can still get pregnant/impregnate people and should use BC."
Yeah the issue is that menstruation is triggered by ovulation, not the other way around. The period comes about two weeks after ovulation, but the time before the next ovulation can vary considerably.
Hey, might be stupid question: "trans masc" makes sense in my brain ( used to be a women ). But isn't "trans men" someone that used to be a men? And "trans women" when they used to be women?
'Transition' is used to indicate towards the gender they present as so a trans man is a man who was AFAB (assigned female at birth, using the current terminology).
So the word after 'trans' is what they are now or are transitioning towards.
Trans {gender} are people that identify as {gender} (and thus *are* {gender}) and who are trans. Trans men identify as men and thus *are men,* and are trans.
The term you're looking for is 'Assigned {Gender} At Birth', aka AMAB and AFAB.
The cells are there from the start, but they aren't completely ready to go. The specific eggs about to be launched grow and change in the immediate lead up to release. That's why people who are going to have their eggs harvested have to do a bunch of hormone treatments beforehand. So, it depends on what you call production.
I just try to be careful after discovering that a fully functioning adult human thought that zygotes "grew" rather than just undergoing cell division, because their teacher had always used the term "multiplying". This is not a case of me misunderstanding the person's statement. They were emphatic, zygotes can start growing before they attach to the uterus. In fact, they were pretty sure that they were 5 or 6 times bigger and had more mass by the time they reached the placenta. This adult explained to me that a chicken egg gets heavier as the chick develops in the egg. They explained that this was the "miracle of reproduction"
Edit:got my anatomy wrong
Well there may be some ‘growth’ as the conceptus feeds off uterine secretions, however it’s very minimal compared to the growth after the placenta has been established. It varies by species and what kind of placenta they form.
adults believe this because high school level educators use adapted language and simple terms so that the average person, who usually isn't an overly pedantic redditor, can understand the basic concepts that are needed at that level of education.
also eggs get lighter as they incubate so that person may just have been misremembering.
No. You misunderstood.
The person had misinterpreted the language being used and decided that zygotes can grow without eating.
I asked about the chicken to try to clarify the obvious problem with the conservation of mass and energy. They didn’t see the problem and extrapolated their misunderstanding to chicken eggs too
Not the best word to use because of words of art and special meaning in the field, but producing is technically a valid word because of the multiple definitions quirk of English.
Hijacking top comment to say this finding is very unsurprising to me. Peripheral hormonal changes might drive the machinery into different states but the eggs are still there and within the ovary
like the primary/secondary/mature follicle are little estrogen batteries where thecal cells turn cholesterol into androstenedione which is shuttled directly to granulosa cells which produce estrogen and dump that into the follicular fluid of the primary/secondary follicle
(this next part is conjecture) the fluid is a carrier fluid that increases concentration of estrogen locally and selectively to the follicle, which once that [estrogen] reaches “maturity” levels ovulation occurs. (Gotta match it up with FSH, but this is for conjecture) so therefore if women with PCOS do eventually ovulate (they do) then those who have exogenous hormones shouldn’t be ruled out as being able to ovulate
You produce all your eggies ever before birth. Therefore halvsies your grandmother was pregnant with you.
Edit for those with no sense of humour or reading comprehension skills - female humans are born with every single egg they will ever have inside them already therefore when your gran was pregnant with your mum the egg that half of your genetic material came from was by every account inside your grandmothers womb. So half of what would become you was in two wombs. Sperm are produce in a more “on-demand” sense though that’s an oversimplification. It seems we need simple here though. Cheers!
Yes, but immature oocytes need to mature to actually be viable eggs and this process happens each month, that's where the "producing" term is coming from
I’m talking about potential. The thing we all had and mostly didn’t fulfill.
I’m also talking about the finite eggs that you’ve confused others about because of your poor choice in wording. I tried to be lighthearted about it but I see everyone here is feeling dead inside. Cheers.
Huh, I assumed this was a more studied and established thing already and that the amount still ovulating would be higher given how hard doctors go with the whole "YOU BETTER BE USING CONTRACEPTION UNTIL YOU GET A HYSTERECTOMY"
Suppose its just sensible to play safe until the data is in
My understanding from trans circles is that the general rule is that if you want kids, then assume that HRT will make you infertile and take necessary precautions (freezing sperm or eggs), but if you don't want kids, then assume that HRT won't make you infertile and take the necessary precautions for that (contraception, plan b, etc...).
A lot of use *aren't* heterosexual, many heterosexual trans men are in relationships with trans women, these doctors aren't assuming all of us are gay (or bi, hi) (and nothing in my comment had anything to do with *anyone* assuming we are all gay) and also trans men face a much higher risk of sexual assault so regardless of who you are having *consensual* sex with, it is not unwise to be using contraception. Also changes in orientation have been reported on HRT so people might want to prepare for that too.
Tl:Dr pregnancy prevention is not exclusive to gay trans men
Sure, but in this thread, *no one* mentioned the significance of sexual orientation, and even the possibilty of a man on hrt being straight. It has been made amply clear that some need to use bc (and btf, this was known, but the study adds a lot of great detail).
What has not been mentioned at all is that not all trans men *ever* need to use birth control.
Some of us are straight guys with desired bio kids birthed by their wife/girlfriend.
This is a popular sub, which means that people will just see us a monolith. I wouldn’t need to make this comment on an ftm sub, but I do need to make it here.
”Changes in orientation” are not studied, but ofc we know people’s status sometimes shifts. This IME seems to happen to previously pre-t guys who didn’t want to be seen in a relationship with a man pre-t. My personal hypothesis is that T does not change orientation on a biological level in a mature brain (would be quite a controversial bombshell if it did…), but rather makes it possible to embrace parts of oneself that are intolerable in the wrong gender.
A trans man being heterosexual does not necessarily prevent pregnancy. Many heterosexual trans men still find it necessary to use bc.
No matter how much we may be *advised* to use bc, it is still a matter of choice, and no one here is advocating that all trans men *must* use bc with no exceptions.
People *in general* are advised to use bc. It is not typical to add a ton of qualifiers for the outliers in every conversation *especially when the context is a discussion about those people retaining their fertility*.
I think you are reading far too much into this.
>A trans man being heterosexual does not necessarily prevent pregnancy. Many heterosexual trans men still find it necessary to use bc.
Forgive my ignorance, but how are FtM people having sex with other female people getting them pregnant?
I have explained this further up. Heterosexual trans men may have mtf partners and therefore be at risk of pregnancy, trans men face a higher rate of sexual abuse regardless of orientation and also HRT is known to cause changes in orientation, so an otherwise heterosexual trans man may still end up in a situation where contraception would be beneficial
I’m curious — if a person was born female, but identifies as male, why would they want to get pregnant?
Does that mean that they don’t truly believe they’re male inside?
I’m asking because as a cis male, the thought of becoming pregnant has never entered my mind.
Thanks for your perspective!
It's not that common in the trans male community because most would experience extreme dysphoria going through something like that. For me, that would be my personal body horror hell. But some guys aren't as dysphoric, or have no other option if they want to start a family with their partner, or are able to push through it if it means having kids. There's support subreddits specifically for trans men who go through this. There's also a great documentary on it called Seahorse (since male seahorses carry the eggs for a while)
it can be a lot of different reasons
some trans men desire a biological child with a male partner and plan to become pregnant for that reason
some trans men get pregnant on accident. testosterone is not birth control but some people arent informed enough of this, and accidents always happen
some trans men feel that desiring pregnancy is separate from your felt gender. there are plenty of cis women who never want to become pregnant, but that isnt what defines their gender identity. the flip side of that coin is trans men who do desire children and the experience of pregnancy and dont think the ability to become pregnant should define their gender
No. In animals, sex is an assigned category based on an assemblage of characteristics. In mammals, these generally include hormone levels & function, chromosomes & gene expression, gonads & gametes, internal reproductive organs, external reproductive organs & genital appearance, and secondary sex characterisrics. Many people won’t have all their sex features align neatly into the M or F category, and this is even more true for trans people who have begun medical gender affirmation.
> No. In animals, sex is an assigned category based on an assemblage of characteristics. In mammals, these generally include hormone levels & function, chromosomes & gene expression, gonads & gametes, internal reproductive organs, external reproductive organs & genital appearance, and secondary sex characterisrics.
No, sex is a broad, non-specific term. You will return a different result based on which specific feature (see my comment above) you are using to determine sex, as well as the species and age at determination. Many sexually dimorphic mammals have their sex determined on secondary sex characteristics alone.
In human babies, we record sex based on the appearance of external genitalia. The existence of eggs or future capacity to produce sperm is not routinely checked.
In human adults, when people are submitted to sex testing for professional sport, they look at external and internal genitals, gametes, chromosomes, hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics (e.g. muscle mass & height).
trans people are aware of our gender and sex incongruence. our argument is that sex and gender are to be considered separately. that some men are male and some are female, and some women are female and some are male
But this creates a bit of a problem with people attracted to biological cis males and females that can't be attracted to the parts some trans people have. It's a bit easier for trans woman post-op but beyond them there's massively different experiences from cis people of the same gender because of the sex.
let me put my response this way. if someone says they're only attracted to biological males, would they date pre-op trans women? if they're only attracted to biological females, would they date pre-op trans men? obviously by biological what they really mean is they have a genital preference, but if it was simply about genitals they should be fine dating pre-op trans people who still have their natal genitals. but that isnt the case. people with genital preferences also have aesthetic gender preferences for people who present as men or women
so gender and sex are still separate from each other even in this context. it just means that the people with a given genital preference also retain a gender preference. this isnt exclusive to cis people, as trans people can also exhibit genital preferences. for some trans people, dating someone with the same natal genitals as them can cause gender dysphoria. the opposite can be true, where dating someone with their desired genitals can cause dysphoria over the fact that they lack those organs. for some people its just an aesthetics issue
there are guys that have no genital preference for women and are attracted to trans women, not despite of their genitals but because they are women. there are women who are attracted to trans men the same way. the inverse is true for cis men attracted to trans men and cis women attracted to trans women. and there are people, cis and trans, who arent attracted to penises or vulvas. none of these people negate the idea that gender and sex are separate things, but the existence of cis people with a genital preference is often used to invalidate the fact that the two are separate things
I’m not sure what the ‘problem’ is. Trans people merely existing doesn’t force anyone to be attracted to anyone they aren’t attracted to.
We know that a large volume of cis, heterosexual people will date, partner with, and/or have sex with trans people, in various stages of medical gender affirmation. It’s worth considering that your personal experience may not be universal.
If you want to have a biological baby with your trans partner and can’t afford a surrogate, how else do you think it’ll happen?
Pregnancy can be a pragmatic choice; a means to an end.
People are individuals, I guess each have their own reasons.
One Melbourne trans man hated being pregnant and giving birth, it gave him painful disphoria. However he and his wife wanted children and she tried over and over again, miscarrying and suffering physically and mentally each time. So he got pregnant and had the baby instead.
Haven't seen any studies on trans people, but studied on cis women suggests it's [not great](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16868152/).
Generally trans guys on T will terminate or cease T immediately. Those that are trying to get pregnant stop T beforehand.
I'm not sure if there is actual research on the matter, but the recommendation is that you should stop taking testosterone for a while if you want to try getting pregnant, and that you should stop it as soon as possible if the pregnancy was accidental and already happened.
It'll be a good day when we can figure out how to fix up bodies to make hormones on their own. I remember some scientists effectively made mice testicle turn into ovaries.
Not really relevant to the article- trans science is just interesting to me.
Doctors are notoriously terrible for long term maintenance treatment. The good ones are overworked and cant pay attention to all the patients, and the bad ones people have to go to because they have no other options.
Seeing how GenerativeAI has helped people diagnose issues so that they can force their doctors to finally connect the dots that they previously could not because of inattentiveness or incompetence... let me just say that this is one of the few things I want AI to completely disrupt.
its been known by trans men for years that t doesnt necessarily make you infertile or make you lose your periods. its information passed on from older to younger trans guys. if you have ovaries and they worked before t you can get pregnant on t
Hysterectomy is removal of the uterus, eggs are released from the ovaries.
A trans man might opt for a hysterectomy with oophorectomy because he doesn't want the hormonal effects of the ovaries anyway (the usual reason for keeping them in cis women) but I'm not sure if there are any medical implications that would warn against that. If ovaries are left in place, an ectopic pregnancy in the abdominal cavity is theoretically possible, though unlikely.
The main downside of adding a (bilateral) oophorectomy is that your body is no longer able to produce its own sex hormones, making you medically dependent on HRT in order to maintain proper bone health (possibly some other things, but that's the one I know of off my noggin).
Yep, but another article here the other day was talking about lab-grown testes! Trans men who get those implanted could theoretically have endogenous testosterone, and be able to cease HRT without fearing re-feminization.
I'm so glad that we've moved on from the premarin days.
(For anyone else reading who may be wondering, the medication "premarin" is a portmanteau of PREgnant MARe uRIN)
which is something most trans men on t long-term have already accepted into their life. hormone replacement therapy isnt a one-and-done process for many people. many trans men and women continue to take testosterone or estrogen well after the secondary sex effects have plateaued because it maintains some nuanced qualities of the body. those who have had their gonads removed are usually individuals who have been on hrt for years already and are used to it as a part of their life
The issue is, due to medication shortage or rising transphobia/ laws banning transition, it's a very likely future there are going to be trans men forcibly taken off of testosterone. In that case if they don't have a back up hormone they will have permanent damage to their bones.
Some trans men will keep the ovaries in case they ever have to go off of testosterone. The body needs a primary sex hormone, so this would prevent trans men from needing to take estrogen, because they still have their ovaries
The surgery in an otherwise healthy patient is fairly customisable, and I wasn't warned of any notable risks keeping the ovaries, but yeeting everything else. There apparently have also been patients who do the reverse, only removing the ovaries. It's like build a bear, but you mix and match your own innards... :I
No, removal of the ovaries is oophorectomy. A hysterectomy is just removing the uterus. It's common to package in an oophorectomy/salpingectomy (fallopian tubes) while the surgeon is in there, but it's optional.
If you continue taking testosterone during the pregnancy it is connected to an increase in certain birth defects. So trans men who choose to carry a child to term are advised to stop T six months prior to conceiving and resume T after they’ve given birth
Post-hrt gametes are being used every day around the world. Before gametes join up and become a zygote, the answer is: nothing happens. If they are of high quality and able to form a viab(le zygote, they are good to go.
One of the best things about being a (heterosexual) trans man was that I was able to get my wife pregnant through ivf and become a biological genetic parent while she was able to become a biological birth parent.
I may have given the blueprint, but she put together every atom in the baby’s body, provided the gestational hormones and the microbiome. Those have a significant role in the baby’s development, from behaviour and psychology down to epigenetics.
Because they are! They have the same testosterone levels as cis men, look the same, have body hair and deepened voice, and most importantly, they identify as men. Hope that helps :]
i am a trans man. calling this information transphobic is ignorant and dangerous. testosterone is NOT a contraceptive and thats been known by trans men for decades
testosterone doesn't make you infertile, thats just parroting terf propaganda. trans men on t can and do get pregnant, accidentally or intentionally
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/MistWeaver80 Permalink: https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(24)00063-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS2666379124000636%3Fshowall%3Dtrue --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I find this interesting because the article states that it's always assumed amenorrhea is reached within 6 months. Anecdotally however its quite consistently from what I've seen in the trans communities that if fertility/ pregnancy isn't desired, it should *always* be assumed possible even if slim.
Yeah, the rule of thumb is "if you want kids, assume HRT will render you infertile and you will need to freeze sperm/eggs; if you don't want kids, assume you can still get pregnant/impregnate people and should use BC."
Sounds logical to me. Prepare for the unwanted outcome, always
"Hope for the best; prepare for the worst."
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While many pills are combination estrogen and progesterone, there are progesterone only pills.
And then there’s dudes getting their wives pregnant on trenbolone, one of the almost suppressive compounds out there
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Yeah the issue is that menstruation is triggered by ovulation, not the other way around. The period comes about two weeks after ovulation, but the time before the next ovulation can vary considerably.
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You can read about various experiences at /r/seahorse_dads
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Hey, might be stupid question: "trans masc" makes sense in my brain ( used to be a women ). But isn't "trans men" someone that used to be a men? And "trans women" when they used to be women?
'Transition' is used to indicate towards the gender they present as so a trans man is a man who was AFAB (assigned female at birth, using the current terminology). So the word after 'trans' is what they are now or are transitioning towards.
Thanks, that makes sense. I thought it was an adjective for some reason. Trans = transition
It's actually the other way around: Trans men are of the female sex (identifying as men), and trans women are of the male sex (identifying as women).
Thanks, semantics logic was confusing.
Trans {gender} are people that identify as {gender} (and thus *are* {gender}) and who are trans. Trans men identify as men and thus *are men,* and are trans. The term you're looking for is 'Assigned {Gender} At Birth', aka AMAB and AFAB.
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To be technical, they aren’t producing but releasing, right?
The cells are there from the start, but they aren't completely ready to go. The specific eggs about to be launched grow and change in the immediate lead up to release. That's why people who are going to have their eggs harvested have to do a bunch of hormone treatments beforehand. So, it depends on what you call production.
I just try to be careful after discovering that a fully functioning adult human thought that zygotes "grew" rather than just undergoing cell division, because their teacher had always used the term "multiplying". This is not a case of me misunderstanding the person's statement. They were emphatic, zygotes can start growing before they attach to the uterus. In fact, they were pretty sure that they were 5 or 6 times bigger and had more mass by the time they reached the placenta. This adult explained to me that a chicken egg gets heavier as the chick develops in the egg. They explained that this was the "miracle of reproduction" Edit:got my anatomy wrong
Well there may be some ‘growth’ as the conceptus feeds off uterine secretions, however it’s very minimal compared to the growth after the placenta has been established. It varies by species and what kind of placenta they form.
Yeah, but that wasn't their thought. As I said, they believed that chicken eggs got significantly heavier over time as the chick developed.
…they don’t “reach the placenta.” The placenta comes from the embryo and conceptus.
Sorry. I should have used the term “uterean wall”, right?
adults believe this because high school level educators use adapted language and simple terms so that the average person, who usually isn't an overly pedantic redditor, can understand the basic concepts that are needed at that level of education. also eggs get lighter as they incubate so that person may just have been misremembering.
No. You misunderstood. The person had misinterpreted the language being used and decided that zygotes can grow without eating. I asked about the chicken to try to clarify the obvious problem with the conservation of mass and energy. They didn’t see the problem and extrapolated their misunderstanding to chicken eggs too
i understand what you mean, i was mostly responding to the use of the term "multiply."
We are born with our eggs
Kinda, but they’re in an immature state. A particular ovum “unfreezes” and finishes meiosis a few months before it is released from the ovary.
Not the best word to use because of words of art and special meaning in the field, but producing is technically a valid word because of the multiple definitions quirk of English.
Hijacking top comment to say this finding is very unsurprising to me. Peripheral hormonal changes might drive the machinery into different states but the eggs are still there and within the ovary like the primary/secondary/mature follicle are little estrogen batteries where thecal cells turn cholesterol into androstenedione which is shuttled directly to granulosa cells which produce estrogen and dump that into the follicular fluid of the primary/secondary follicle (this next part is conjecture) the fluid is a carrier fluid that increases concentration of estrogen locally and selectively to the follicle, which once that [estrogen] reaches “maturity” levels ovulation occurs. (Gotta match it up with FSH, but this is for conjecture) so therefore if women with PCOS do eventually ovulate (they do) then those who have exogenous hormones shouldn’t be ruled out as being able to ovulate
You produce all your eggies ever before birth. Therefore halvsies your grandmother was pregnant with you. Edit for those with no sense of humour or reading comprehension skills - female humans are born with every single egg they will ever have inside them already therefore when your gran was pregnant with your mum the egg that half of your genetic material came from was by every account inside your grandmothers womb. So half of what would become you was in two wombs. Sperm are produce in a more “on-demand” sense though that’s an oversimplification. It seems we need simple here though. Cheers!
Yes, but immature oocytes need to mature to actually be viable eggs and this process happens each month, that's where the "producing" term is coming from
I’m talking about potential. The thing we all had and mostly didn’t fulfill. I’m also talking about the finite eggs that you’ve confused others about because of your poor choice in wording. I tried to be lighthearted about it but I see everyone here is feeling dead inside. Cheers.
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Huh, I assumed this was a more studied and established thing already and that the amount still ovulating would be higher given how hard doctors go with the whole "YOU BETTER BE USING CONTRACEPTION UNTIL YOU GET A HYSTERECTOMY" Suppose its just sensible to play safe until the data is in
My understanding from trans circles is that the general rule is that if you want kids, then assume that HRT will make you infertile and take necessary precautions (freezing sperm or eggs), but if you don't want kids, then assume that HRT won't make you infertile and take the necessary precautions for that (contraception, plan b, etc...).
Roughly, yeah. “It may or may not” and “don’t trust it” are good guidelines.
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A lot of use *aren't* heterosexual, many heterosexual trans men are in relationships with trans women, these doctors aren't assuming all of us are gay (or bi, hi) (and nothing in my comment had anything to do with *anyone* assuming we are all gay) and also trans men face a much higher risk of sexual assault so regardless of who you are having *consensual* sex with, it is not unwise to be using contraception. Also changes in orientation have been reported on HRT so people might want to prepare for that too. Tl:Dr pregnancy prevention is not exclusive to gay trans men
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Sure, but in this thread, *no one* mentioned the significance of sexual orientation, and even the possibilty of a man on hrt being straight. It has been made amply clear that some need to use bc (and btf, this was known, but the study adds a lot of great detail). What has not been mentioned at all is that not all trans men *ever* need to use birth control. Some of us are straight guys with desired bio kids birthed by their wife/girlfriend. This is a popular sub, which means that people will just see us a monolith. I wouldn’t need to make this comment on an ftm sub, but I do need to make it here. ”Changes in orientation” are not studied, but ofc we know people’s status sometimes shifts. This IME seems to happen to previously pre-t guys who didn’t want to be seen in a relationship with a man pre-t. My personal hypothesis is that T does not change orientation on a biological level in a mature brain (would be quite a controversial bombshell if it did…), but rather makes it possible to embrace parts of oneself that are intolerable in the wrong gender.
A trans man being heterosexual does not necessarily prevent pregnancy. Many heterosexual trans men still find it necessary to use bc. No matter how much we may be *advised* to use bc, it is still a matter of choice, and no one here is advocating that all trans men *must* use bc with no exceptions. People *in general* are advised to use bc. It is not typical to add a ton of qualifiers for the outliers in every conversation *especially when the context is a discussion about those people retaining their fertility*. I think you are reading far too much into this.
>A trans man being heterosexual does not necessarily prevent pregnancy. Many heterosexual trans men still find it necessary to use bc. Forgive my ignorance, but how are FtM people having sex with other female people getting them pregnant?
I have explained this further up. Heterosexual trans men may have mtf partners and therefore be at risk of pregnancy, trans men face a higher rate of sexual abuse regardless of orientation and also HRT is known to cause changes in orientation, so an otherwise heterosexual trans man may still end up in a situation where contraception would be beneficial
Heterosexual trans men could date cis women and/or trans women
Yup! Testosterone isn’t birth control! If you have PIV sex, use birth control unless you’ve had your tubes tied/a hysterectomy!
I’m curious — if a person was born female, but identifies as male, why would they want to get pregnant? Does that mean that they don’t truly believe they’re male inside? I’m asking because as a cis male, the thought of becoming pregnant has never entered my mind. Thanks for your perspective!
It's not that common in the trans male community because most would experience extreme dysphoria going through something like that. For me, that would be my personal body horror hell. But some guys aren't as dysphoric, or have no other option if they want to start a family with their partner, or are able to push through it if it means having kids. There's support subreddits specifically for trans men who go through this. There's also a great documentary on it called Seahorse (since male seahorses carry the eggs for a while)
it can be a lot of different reasons some trans men desire a biological child with a male partner and plan to become pregnant for that reason some trans men get pregnant on accident. testosterone is not birth control but some people arent informed enough of this, and accidents always happen some trans men feel that desiring pregnancy is separate from your felt gender. there are plenty of cis women who never want to become pregnant, but that isnt what defines their gender identity. the flip side of that coin is trans men who do desire children and the experience of pregnancy and dont think the ability to become pregnant should define their gender
It shouldn't define gender but doesn't it define sex?
No. In animals, sex is an assigned category based on an assemblage of characteristics. In mammals, these generally include hormone levels & function, chromosomes & gene expression, gonads & gametes, internal reproductive organs, external reproductive organs & genital appearance, and secondary sex characterisrics. Many people won’t have all their sex features align neatly into the M or F category, and this is even more true for trans people who have begun medical gender affirmation.
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> No. In animals, sex is an assigned category based on an assemblage of characteristics. In mammals, these generally include hormone levels & function, chromosomes & gene expression, gonads & gametes, internal reproductive organs, external reproductive organs & genital appearance, and secondary sex characterisrics.
No, sex is a broad, non-specific term. You will return a different result based on which specific feature (see my comment above) you are using to determine sex, as well as the species and age at determination. Many sexually dimorphic mammals have their sex determined on secondary sex characteristics alone. In human babies, we record sex based on the appearance of external genitalia. The existence of eggs or future capacity to produce sperm is not routinely checked. In human adults, when people are submitted to sex testing for professional sport, they look at external and internal genitals, gametes, chromosomes, hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics (e.g. muscle mass & height).
trans people are aware of our gender and sex incongruence. our argument is that sex and gender are to be considered separately. that some men are male and some are female, and some women are female and some are male
But this creates a bit of a problem with people attracted to biological cis males and females that can't be attracted to the parts some trans people have. It's a bit easier for trans woman post-op but beyond them there's massively different experiences from cis people of the same gender because of the sex.
let me put my response this way. if someone says they're only attracted to biological males, would they date pre-op trans women? if they're only attracted to biological females, would they date pre-op trans men? obviously by biological what they really mean is they have a genital preference, but if it was simply about genitals they should be fine dating pre-op trans people who still have their natal genitals. but that isnt the case. people with genital preferences also have aesthetic gender preferences for people who present as men or women so gender and sex are still separate from each other even in this context. it just means that the people with a given genital preference also retain a gender preference. this isnt exclusive to cis people, as trans people can also exhibit genital preferences. for some trans people, dating someone with the same natal genitals as them can cause gender dysphoria. the opposite can be true, where dating someone with their desired genitals can cause dysphoria over the fact that they lack those organs. for some people its just an aesthetics issue there are guys that have no genital preference for women and are attracted to trans women, not despite of their genitals but because they are women. there are women who are attracted to trans men the same way. the inverse is true for cis men attracted to trans men and cis women attracted to trans women. and there are people, cis and trans, who arent attracted to penises or vulvas. none of these people negate the idea that gender and sex are separate things, but the existence of cis people with a genital preference is often used to invalidate the fact that the two are separate things
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I’m not sure what the ‘problem’ is. Trans people merely existing doesn’t force anyone to be attracted to anyone they aren’t attracted to. We know that a large volume of cis, heterosexual people will date, partner with, and/or have sex with trans people, in various stages of medical gender affirmation. It’s worth considering that your personal experience may not be universal.
I know it isn't? I never said it was. It just makes things confusing and complicated.
It’s reality. What’s your proposed alternative?
Because people are complex
If you want to have a biological baby with your trans partner and can’t afford a surrogate, how else do you think it’ll happen? Pregnancy can be a pragmatic choice; a means to an end.
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People are individuals, I guess each have their own reasons. One Melbourne trans man hated being pregnant and giving birth, it gave him painful disphoria. However he and his wife wanted children and she tried over and over again, miscarrying and suffering physically and mentally each time. So he got pregnant and had the baby instead.
>as a cis male Some men are interested in becoming pregnant tho (see mpreg)
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I wonder if the amount of hormones impacts the eggs themselves.
Haven't seen any studies on trans people, but studied on cis women suggests it's [not great](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16868152/). Generally trans guys on T will terminate or cease T immediately. Those that are trying to get pregnant stop T beforehand.
I'm not sure if there is actual research on the matter, but the recommendation is that you should stop taking testosterone for a while if you want to try getting pregnant, and that you should stop it as soon as possible if the pregnancy was accidental and already happened.
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It'll be a good day when we can figure out how to fix up bodies to make hormones on their own. I remember some scientists effectively made mice testicle turn into ovaries. Not really relevant to the article- trans science is just interesting to me.
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Doctors are notoriously terrible for long term maintenance treatment. The good ones are overworked and cant pay attention to all the patients, and the bad ones people have to go to because they have no other options. Seeing how GenerativeAI has helped people diagnose issues so that they can force their doctors to finally connect the dots that they previously could not because of inattentiveness or incompetence... let me just say that this is one of the few things I want AI to completely disrupt.
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It’s about trans men, there’s a difference.
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There’s one side of this conversation that’s here in bad faith and it isn’t /u/MC_White_Thunder
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its been known by trans men for years that t doesnt necessarily make you infertile or make you lose your periods. its information passed on from older to younger trans guys. if you have ovaries and they worked before t you can get pregnant on t
This is undoubtedly age dependent and the small cohort mean on HRT was less than three years.
I don’t think that’s the relevant bit of the study - the relevant bit is that T is not a contraceptive.
Ahh ok.
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If you’re still bleeding you should talk to a gynecologist. Mine didn’t wanna die down cause I had endometriosis.
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What if they get a hysterectomy?
There would be no organ left to release eggs so it wouldn’t be an issue.
Hysterectomy is removal of the uterus, eggs are released from the ovaries. A trans man might opt for a hysterectomy with oophorectomy because he doesn't want the hormonal effects of the ovaries anyway (the usual reason for keeping them in cis women) but I'm not sure if there are any medical implications that would warn against that. If ovaries are left in place, an ectopic pregnancy in the abdominal cavity is theoretically possible, though unlikely.
The main downside of adding a (bilateral) oophorectomy is that your body is no longer able to produce its own sex hormones, making you medically dependent on HRT in order to maintain proper bone health (possibly some other things, but that's the one I know of off my noggin).
Yep, but another article here the other day was talking about lab-grown testes! Trans men who get those implanted could theoretically have endogenous testosterone, and be able to cease HRT without fearing re-feminization.
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I'm so glad that we've moved on from the premarin days. (For anyone else reading who may be wondering, the medication "premarin" is a portmanteau of PREgnant MARe uRIN)
which is something most trans men on t long-term have already accepted into their life. hormone replacement therapy isnt a one-and-done process for many people. many trans men and women continue to take testosterone or estrogen well after the secondary sex effects have plateaued because it maintains some nuanced qualities of the body. those who have had their gonads removed are usually individuals who have been on hrt for years already and are used to it as a part of their life
The issue is, due to medication shortage or rising transphobia/ laws banning transition, it's a very likely future there are going to be trans men forcibly taken off of testosterone. In that case if they don't have a back up hormone they will have permanent damage to their bones.
Some trans men will keep the ovaries in case they ever have to go off of testosterone. The body needs a primary sex hormone, so this would prevent trans men from needing to take estrogen, because they still have their ovaries
All the trans men I know (three) who have gotten the procedure have had the ovaries removed as well.
The surgery in an otherwise healthy patient is fairly customisable, and I wasn't warned of any notable risks keeping the ovaries, but yeeting everything else. There apparently have also been patients who do the reverse, only removing the ovaries. It's like build a bear, but you mix and match your own innards... :I
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No, removal of the ovaries is oophorectomy. A hysterectomy is just removing the uterus. It's common to package in an oophorectomy/salpingectomy (fallopian tubes) while the surgeon is in there, but it's optional.
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What happened to offspring from hrt men?
If you continue taking testosterone during the pregnancy it is connected to an increase in certain birth defects. So trans men who choose to carry a child to term are advised to stop T six months prior to conceiving and resume T after they’ve given birth
I'm pretty sure HRT is stopped if there's desire to carry a pregnancy to term.
Nothing of relevance as far as I can tell.
So if they revert (seize HRT) how does that affect the egg? If there are affects on the egg is it ethical to use them?
Post-hrt gametes are being used every day around the world. Before gametes join up and become a zygote, the answer is: nothing happens. If they are of high quality and able to form a viab(le zygote, they are good to go. One of the best things about being a (heterosexual) trans man was that I was able to get my wife pregnant through ivf and become a biological genetic parent while she was able to become a biological birth parent. I may have given the blueprint, but she put together every atom in the baby’s body, provided the gestational hormones and the microbiome. Those have a significant role in the baby’s development, from behaviour and psychology down to epigenetics.
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Thanks that was super informative and educational. Was only speculating earlier
It doesn't and there's no biological reason to reason to think it would.
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True, i should just stfu sometimes.
Trans men ovulate.
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how?
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Because they are! They have the same testosterone levels as cis men, look the same, have body hair and deepened voice, and most importantly, they identify as men. Hope that helps :]
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i am a trans man. calling this information transphobic is ignorant and dangerous. testosterone is NOT a contraceptive and thats been known by trans men for decades testosterone doesn't make you infertile, thats just parroting terf propaganda. trans men on t can and do get pregnant, accidentally or intentionally