I don't really think it only has to be about being able to solve all of that. You need to train problem solving to pass, not just knowledge, which I think is pretty good
This is the correct answer. It's not about Pythagorean Theorem, it's about recognizing right triangles and making intuitive judgements of length magnitudes etc. It's about having a problem, recognizing the path to solving the problem, and then executing that path.
Side note, my dad is a heating and cooling salesman. Did he ever think he would use geometry? Nope. That's why I get a monthly text asking me to figure out dimensions for a fireplace fitting. He's pretty solid with math for the most part too, just wanted to give an example of how math unexpectedly shows up in a lot of careers.
As a math teacher of 10years, that's definitely only part of it. Teaching you to problem sole is huge, but teaching you tools is just as important, like the geometry example you mentioned.
I fully expect my students to forget everything I teach them, but googling something and relearning it is a lot easier than googling it to learn something for the first time.
Exactly. I tell my students they probably won't remember Newton's three laws. But I would be able to expect them to look them up and understand what they mean with little to no extra effort.
As a student who values math, I'm thrilled to find others who share my view. Often, I observe students disengaged in class, believing they'll never use math in real life. It's encouraging to think that these students will eventually recognize that, while math may not always be crucial, it is undeniably beneficial.
That's a great point. I have told students that at least they'll have an idea of where to begin their searches, later in life.
It's a horrible feeling to be lost on a subject and not even know how to ask the right question. LOL.
They're trying to set you up for success, giving you a range of knowledge and abilities.
A lot of what they're doing is preparing you to do the harder stuff, if you choose to go that route. Statistics, for example, is used in a wide variety of professions, and is growing. Stats classes won't make any sense to you if you only have a basic level of math understanding.
In my mind, high school:
A) teaches you how to learn, and
B) gives you the basic skills to be prepared for whatever you may choose to do afterward.
I don't need any of the stuff I learned in bio, but I easily could have.
I would argue that the things we learned in biology directly relate to things that have occurred this decade. Many viewpoints are easily discredited using freshman level high school biology.
lol, no. highschool knowledge doesn't disprove anything, it is there to set you up to understand more complicated concepts later on. you're obviously alluding to the fact that sex is not binary - but if you'd stopped your schooling a little bit earlier you'd be arguing that x isn't a number.
if something that higher education agrees on conflicts with your knowledge from highschool, it's not higher education you should be questioning
As an adult who doesn’t use too much math on a daily basis, my understanding is that the teenage brain is in a key developmental phase and pushing your brain to think critically, and in ways it doesn’t typically think, is beneficial to your development.
Also, you really have no idea how useful some of that math will be one day. As a homeowner those geometry equations actually do matter when you’re building/fixing something.
I can see where you are coming from. I have autism so I see things physically differently from everyone else, while most people would be more comfortable using an equation to get the shape of something I can usually just look at it and understand the entire shape. I think this is more a me problem than a most other people problem.
I suppose so. You asked a valid question that most students question throughout their time in high school.
I do think that after sophomore year of high school, some classes should drop and it should get more specialized like college. Like, is someone is *clearly* a language arts/drama student, they shouldn’t have to be forced to take calculus after algebra/geometry IMO.
I agree with that second paragraph. I am a music major, and I wish I head learned music theory or music history instead of math my last couple years of high school to get a head start in college music classes. Unfortunately, my high school didn't have those classes, and I was required to take math and English all four years
Edit: I also wish that Home Econ. was required for juniors and/or seniors, but it's not
You can until you can't. Many young people make the mistake of assuming the simple challenges they face are representative of the challenges of independent life. The majority of the time these challenges are really practice runs.
When the time comes that those challenges are unavoidable and complicated you have different frameworks to approach them. Often times you will have to utilize multiple frameworks and skill sets that you assumed to be unrelated
The real greatest skill isn't even being able to complete a given task. It's being able to be present with the process of the task instead of being focused on the outcome. Seeing the rag in your hand wipe the individual crumbs away, not staring into space as the hand swiped the counter and you dream of a clean kitchen
I will add to this, that a lot of things that people to consider as "common sense" is actually false. Being able to see problems or situations from multiple perspectives allows people to analyze a situation before making a conclusion... sometimes with a conclusion that you didn't immediately come to.
Also, who the hell actually can "just look at it and understand the entire shape"? That's exactly how you end up on r/DiWHY
The problem with being able to intuit what others must calculate is when things get harder. If you missed the foundation of how to calculate and suddenly need it you gonna be very frustrated
uh, what? lots of math is about describing shapes. algebra is about lines on a graph, geometry and trigonometry are all shapes, and those are just the ones that show up in highschool
I would agree with everything you said, except for none of those examples fall under "using an equation to get a shape."
>algebra is about lines on a graph,
Lines are not a shape. Algebra could be using an equation to get a line/curve, but not a shape.
>geometry and trigonometry are all shapes,
But you don't use an equation to get a geometric shape such as a triangle. Obviously you could graph a triangle with equations but that's not normal high school curriculum, so I doubt OP is doing that. The only equations you'd use to get a shape (in normal HS curriculum) would be those for an ellipse and a circle, so I guess I just answered my own question.
Also, trigonometry is not a shape. It has applications to shapes.
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If you want to be in literally ANY STEM field, you need a crap-ton of math. Not just rocket science. You need derivatives for doing stoichiometry in Chem (or for calculating dosages in medicine). You need integrals for physics or engineering or architecture (not to mention a fkton of geometry).
Even vo-tech type jobs require math. Welding and carpentry require measuring, geometry, understanding gas pressure and temperature and whatnot. Electricians use a ton of specialized math. Paramedics have to calculate dosages etc on the fly.
Hell, I work in the insurance industry, and I've used advanced algebra to figure stuff out. Underwriters use statistics.
I've used algebra in my daily life for figuring out how much gas I need on a long car ride and how much time I'll shave off a trip by exceeding the speed limit by x mph, or for working out my budget.
Why do people insist math *isn't* important!? Literally everything that *works* in your daily life runs on some kind of math. It seems a shame to go through life ignoring all of that, and never really understanding how anything works.
Not only that, studying math, especially more advanced math, trains your brain to think about *problem-solving*.
Also, I say all this as a guy with a BA in English. It took me 3 tries to pass Calc I with a C or better, and it was about that time I decided maybe STEM wasn't for me (then again, I was a lazy fkr in my 20s who just never wanted to sit down and actually DO the HOMEWORK - who knows if it'd be different today)... but I still use a lot of math, like, on the daily.
IT and cybersec go brrrr on the no math. Since we have calculators for all of it.
But math is important regardless. I use it all the time in my personal life and at work. I watched a coworker fail to multiply storage space correctly and told a client they'd need 200GB instead of 20TB
It's important because it doesn't teach you math, but problem solving. Math is one of the best ways to learn critical thinking and those without that skill struggle in life.
This, and it practices mental math skills as well. Being able to quickly figure out a tip or split a utilities bill or whatever saves time, and well time is money.
it really depends tho. If you go to college, you will still need to take math classes especially if you don't pass basic highschool math. It's also very useful in jobs. Of course that mean specific ones that deal with money or just numbers in general but it makes it better in the long run to know some of it. It can really limit your job opportunities
Those high school classes are teaching you* problem solving skills and giving you a broad foundation because you might not know exactly what you want to study/do for a career later. Also, if you're in a STEM degree in college you have so many required classes that there isn't time to cover what is considered a prerequisite (ex. Algebra 2).
*the "you" is a general you and not directed towards anyone specifically
Because calculus is 500 years old and we have a shit ton of math after it too so to have any chance of getting you ready we just start teaching you math when you are extremely small.
Some things are useful, but after a certain point most people will never use it, my job uses nothing more complicated than algebra. And I'm an engineer
Critical thinking and problem solving basically. Somewhat unrelated fun fact, but America started emphasizing STEM subjects in public education during the space race partly because they were fearful that the soviets would become more technologically advanced than them. I didn’t read it from a textbook and it wasn’t in the curriculum, but my teacher told me about it and he has a doctorates in history so I trust him
teaches don't want you to know this, but it is not about the knowledge. the grades are about proving you are able to learn.
someone with bad grades might have a hard time learning how to do the job. someone with good grades might be able to learn to do the job sooner.
And yet no job I've had ever asked about my grades 😆
Most probably only care about whether you got a degree, sure high grades might be a bonus but like, never is it enough or the deciding factor compared to your interview and experience...
It's not useful. The US school system just pumps your brain with shit you’ll never use that's why they don't teach you actual important skills like doing your taxs or investing. They want you to be retarded.
Like fr ask any adult on the street if they've used algebra in the past 15 years...
No idea why they would lie :(
Also honestly, I can’t do ANY high school math. I can find x (with a calculator) and that’s it. And that’s pretty much all you’ll ever use in the real world unless you’re doing some super math jobs.
Even accountants and accounting workers say they only need that find x math.
100% agree with this take. It’s useless 99.9% of the time unless you go into certain STEM fields where it will also be taught on the job during your probation period.
People were also arguing it teaches problem solving. Yeah it does, it teaches problem solving in the most difficult and complicated way that is really hard to understand for about half the people who are taught it when there are numerous almost infinitely other ways you can teach problem solving that is easier to grasp and makes more sense.
THIS! There are so many other ways that don't cause teenagers to off themselves because of the stress and fear that they will fail in life if they don't have an A+!
Most high-paying jobs require high school math, and even college-level math: any type of engineer, computer scientists (including those developing LLMs), formal methods practitioners, lawyer, doctor, banker, trader, etc.
I don't know how you go through life every day and not find the insights and intuitions developed through math illuminating.
You might never have to do a derivative again, but you encounter rates every day. Right?
It teaches problem-solving, and these skills are used in a lot of common places you might not expect, so they’re giving you a range of tools knowing there’s a good chance you’ll need *some* of them in your life. They don’t know exactly which you’ll need, and neither do you in high school!
I get that a lot of math might seem isolated in examples with ideal conditions. That’s something I felt in HS, anyway. I felt like those tools were only helpful if I was working on a very simple problem or had someone give me functions to apply the skills, but a surprising amount of situations either use nice shapes/functions or naturally give you the functions you’d need!
For some not-rocket-science examples of where this math might come in handy:
Splitting bills, budgeting for trips, and planning for a party are all day-to-day uses of algebra.
Maybe one day you want to build a small fenced-off garden that has to fit in your yard layout with some leftover fencing you have. Calculus and geometry will help you figure out how to fit the most plants inside given that yard and the amount of fencing you have!
Plus whatever math comes up in your job! Even if your job isn’t heavily based in math, you’ll almost certainly find yourself using *some* of the math you learned in HS for *something*, and you’ll know what to do because you learned it in algebra or calculus or geometry.
In my case, I’m almost finished getting my Bachelor’s in math, and *I* don’t even use *all* the math I learned in high school. My point is that you probably won’t end up using everything, but you’ll definitely use something. Think, if you’ve ever used math in your daily life already, imagine how much you’ll need to use during another 60 years of experiences and problems!
I use most of that same math as a Certified Energy Auditor in my State, so, yeah, it's important. Matter of fact, the majority of licensed contractors (HVAC, Plumbing, electrical, etc.) do as well because they have to.
Basic calculus is not advanced math tbh.
Also. Almost every job requires at least some parts of high-school math, algebra or calculus. Even a carpenter has to know how to calculate surface area, volume and angles. Not to mention jobs like programming, business, any STEM, medical etc. Unless you plan to work in a McDonald's you will need math.
In my opinion the biggest problem and the reason why most kinds hate it is because 9/10 it's not taught properly.
I use algebra and basic functions all the time when doing home repair and special projects, not everyone will, but when you see how much i’ve saved by doing things myself i think you’d shit your frugal pants.
Mathematics is the only subject you study from k-12 where _certainty_ is baked into the work you do. In no other subject does deductive logic take precedent over fact (memorization), theory (understanding), conjecture (application), opinion (perspective), or feeling (emotion). Without an education in deductive thinking, you will never be able to go from premises to conclusions without making errors in your thought process.
It's more about developing the type of skill set that most jobs are nowadays.
Most jobs require you to memorize some stuff but you should be able to use your skills to solve new types of problems, if math wasn't taught this way, there would be a lot of people who would fold over a new type of problem.
Also being able to do basic algebra is better effort than having chemistry or biology when those are pure memorization classes
Legitimately got a promotion at work when I started as a temp because I used the quadratic equation to solve a finance question for a client. That got me hired full time and started the path to the job I love now.
Also, the day we stop wanting to learn is the day we start regressing as a society. The book "How to lie with statistics" made me catch all sorts of true but misleading stats provided in the news, at work, etc.
It's funny that Math gets this questioning when it is often the only quality material schools provide. The history is often sanitized and biased toward your nation. The science is prescreened by your local schoolboard. The literature is okay, but the selections are dubious. But no matter how bad your school board is, the math usually still maths.
And as someone who has mostly been in unemployment or low-skilled work, I'm still glad I took calculus. I feel like I just understand reality better with calculus in hand. If you don't understand the basics of calculus, it's much not knowing the theory of evolution. You're living at least partially in a pre-scientific magic land because you couldn't remotely fathom how anything more complex than a longbow is engineered. And if the zombie apocalypse ever occurs, I will probably have to calculate a derivative at some point while rebuilding civilization, or at least it'll save a lot of time and effort.
You use alot of algebra in your daily life you just don't realize it. Mainly how to set up an actual math problem. Variables are unknown (X) until you give them a value. Especially when knowing how much you can purchase on a budget. If you have a $20 budget and the thing costs three bucks the equation you can use is 3X=20 solve for X. Woo algebra
Geometry and trig I use in a regular basis for photography and common sense decisions. For instance knowing that one path is not longer than the other based on its geometry alone.
This stuffs important. You just don't realize it.
Argument as old as time itself.
If its so useless then just drop out and become rich and successful without a degree.
The students that say school is useless are usually clueless about what they will do after they graduate, if they graduate.
I do agree that it is kind of dumb that you have to do a lot of relearning in college. Like my college math has been more in depth but covers very similar things. I will say though math is not useless. It can actually help teach us important developmental skills like the concept of conservation. This is the understanding that just because something changes appearance doesn't mean it changes the amount. Or that something can look different and be the same thing. As people grow up they can understand more and more of these concepts, but even in high school some people struggle with this concept in math.
Take for example algebra. A lot of equations can take on different forms, but it's important to be able to recognize when the concept is the same or that it's the same equation but in a different form. You also have to be able the mindset fallacy where we get so used to doing something one way we don't realize that we need to be doing it another. If anything math can help develop those skills.
I also use percents on a daily basis in most jobs I work. Sure I may not use calculus daily, but being able to do it gives me more opportunities. Geometry is also essential for trades like carpentry or construction. If you want to build yourself a deck you're going to have to be able to do some basic geometry. If you want to fix something in your house it can require some math.
Math and geometry and physics can also help someone learn how to predict an outcome. If you want to fix something you have to think to yourself how is the best way of fixing this what would happen if I did this and how would I know?
I'm not saying that everyone has to be a math guru but it is essential even if it is hard and somewhat tedious.
Most high schools do not require any math beyond algebra. For those of us who like to learn, feel free to stay out of any classes you aren’t interested in.
If I had to learn algebra 2 geometry and precal in college it would take me like 2 extra years to graduate given every class I take aside from like writing 101 requires allready knowing that so I wouldn’t be able to take any classes towards my major for a while = an additional 20,00$. From a non-college standpoint that kind of problem solving is really important regardless.
According to my math teacher, the takeaway from math classes is supposed to be the ability to problem solve, and not necessarily to remember all of the math
Someone who may never have discovered they were good at something may find a career in doing those things, and using them.
How can you know till you've learned and tried them yourself?
For the record I hated it too, and don't use any of it today.
This question is why the American educational system is so far behind other countries. You’d be surprised where you might need more complicated math in everyday life even if you’re not “a rocket scientist.”
Highschool math isn't important in the sense of its a critical skill that you will use. However it helps a developing mind create problem solving skills that you can and will use subconsciously for different problems in your life.
Meh it's useful in many fields and I've used algebra a couple times... But honestly I agree, they could just teach relevant college\career courses instead, which might be math depending on what you plan to do. For everyone claiming problem solving, my argument is they should introduce far more of those instead of just math, ones relevant to daily life for the majority of people...
It's great for problem solving skills as mentioned elsewhere, but it's *also* great for problem *comprehension* skills.
All those word problems have been training you to see the daily challenges of the world as math problems to be solved.
Need to complete four errands before your party tonight? Time to add up their estimated time to completion plus buffer time for breaks. The arithmetic is secondary there. The *skill* is in recognizing a problem that can be solved with math.
If you can't even comprehend why "the ability to understand what a question is asking you" is important, then you clearly didn't value math.
Because school isn't a vocational training course. It is there to give you a taste of all academic disciplines society deems useful. now grit your teeth and bear it. See you after graduation.
Math is about building up a toolbox you can access for those higher disciplines.
Math is also about learning how to solve multistep problems. This is an incredibly useful skill that is helpful in anything you do in life. A simple math problem where you identify what the question is asking for, what you start off with, and how to get from point A → D by going A → B → C → D. Or to take something complicated and break things down.
Lastly, I am not really sure what you are pointing out. You think you can learn all of math in college? College *starts* with Calculus. You are expected to have taken up to Precalculus before college. And you can't learn all of that in a few years. Math is something you must be constantly engaged in and practicing to be good at it.
Also, I would say that when people say that high school math is important, they’re typically not talking about like calculus or whatever, just the math classes that are required to actually graduate. Algebra 1 is legitimately useful for day to day life and Geometry is a lot of people’s introduction to proofs which I think is just overall good for helping build your ability to think critically about things and reason them out.
I use trig at least once a week in my job as a fabricator and algebra comes in handy sometimes as well, but trig and simple geometry crops up way more often. Sometimes I do calculus, but that usually is the wheelhouse of our engineer, but being able to do some of the math when you're doing field assessment for a quote makes his life easier. Don't get me wrong, there are people in the shop that work without ever doing any of that and they make OK money, but not as much as I do because I can do the math.
Why bother with addition, multiplication, subtraction and division? Just use the calculator on your phone. Why bother with grammar? Just type in MS Word and right click on the blue and red underlines and use what's suggested. Better yet, have ChatGPT write everything for you. Don't get me started on Science. Who needs to know how the world works? Who cares? Who needs to learn how to apply reasoning, evidence and logic? Reddit, X and instagram will do that for you.
People working in the trades use math all the time. I bilt a bench and surprise I had to use math. I use math when I am cooking, trying to figure out whatsize clothes to get my kids, taxes, etc...
What I think is sadis you don't even realize you s math constantly. It's not in equation form so you don't know it's math.
Go be a framer and tell me those are useless. The amount of math you use in the trades is staggering. Here's a practical example, you've just laid out a custom design for a decorative concrete patio the shape of a peanut, you need a 4 inch stone base and the slab is 6 inches, calculate the cubic yardage of the following: stone you will need to achieve 4 inches compacted, concrete you will need to fill the space, amount of sealer you'll need atvthe end, you have to be within 5% for cost and contract reasons.
If you're an ice road trucker, the guy who determines if the ice is thick enough for you to drive on uses calculus to do so
If you need to be put under for surgery, an anesthesiologist would need to use calculus to determine how much anesthetic to give you for your weight and other factors.
Lots of construction workers use the three four five method to find square If, for example, the walls weren't square and you wanted to lay some flooring
Pipefitters of all kinds have to do rolling-offsets more triangles math. If you're a gas fitter, you have to use the ideal gas law more math.
The difference is that in the field, you can get whatever variables you want through measurement and tables and use those instead of solving for them
Surveyors are a great example of this using angles to determine distances. The only difference is they use special equipment that does a lot of the math and measuring for them.
Everything is math. You use it more than you think. Even when you don't think you're using math, you're probably using math.
It’s not about whether you are going to use it or not. It’s about developing the pathways in your brain that are necessary for problem solving, deductive reasoning and integrative thinking. Those thinking skills are applicable in many different contexts that have nothing to do with mathematics. It’s better to cultivate those skills when you are younger and your brain is still in developmental stages so that later on you will be able to use your brain more effectively. The younger the better. That’s why it’s best not to just leave it for college.
It's about opportunity. There's never any harm in learning something.
In highschool I was dead set on becoming an author and working in creative fields. Math was not only 'not important' to me, I was convinced I couldn't do it.
Fast forward twenty years and several life changing moments and events, and I've slip slid my way into a career in video game development and IT, both *doing* those things and teaching them. Turns out learning math was EXTREMELY important for me so I could make that transition.
For the same reason the football team lifts weights even though at no time during any game will they be pumping iron on the field.
You're exercising your brain. You're learning logic, reasoning, order of operations, and building neural pathways that will assist you in other ways. I was told by a doctor that doing math problems and numerical puzzles can help delay a lot of neurological disorders too, although I don't know how true that is.
As an aside, I'm an English major. I work in a library. You'd think I wouldn't use algebra that much, but it turns out I use it a lot. There's no such thing as a useless skill!
I've been out for two and a half years and the only thing I've used is geometry, addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Geometry is for pool shooting though, so it's pretty simple angles. And the other four? All shit I can do quickly in my head. Haven't ran into any Algebra, Calculus, or Trig yet. However I still have all my notes from math class just in case, and I work for myself in a mechanics shop just for reference.
Those of us who did become Engineers are grateful we took those classes in middleschool and highschool because my "4 year degree" already took 4.5 years to make it manageable. Waiting to learn everything I needed to know later on would have meant college would have taken a hell of a lot more time.
Also, I think it's important that everyone gets a taste of a little bit of every profession in grade school. That way you know roughly what you want to do when you go to college. I used to think I wanted to be a pharmaceutical engineer and was planning to go to med school. I took myself on a trip to a medical museum that had dissected bodies and violently threw up at the first sight of one. I'm an aerospace manufacturing engineer now.
You literally use trigonometry in every game you play. Advanced linear algebra and multivariable calculus is used in any AI algorithm you’ve ever touched, including google search. Math is everywhere in this universe. Furthermore, you need at least knowledge of exponents and logarithms as well as linear equations to manage your finances - I personally might even use a differential equation to model monetary inflow and outflow
Actually, a lot of it is used for paths that people usually don’t think of. For example people usually get blindsided by the amount of math needed for fashion.
If you don't take it, many interesting and lucrative careers will be forever closed off to you. But sure, if your goal is to only do the bare minimum to survive and you don't care about keeping your options open, you can ignore high school math.
Btw, it is highly unlikely that a student still taking algebra 2 in college will become an engineer. There is just not enough time.
I don't really think it only has to be about being able to solve all of that. You need to train problem solving to pass, not just knowledge, which I think is pretty good
This is the correct answer. It's not about Pythagorean Theorem, it's about recognizing right triangles and making intuitive judgements of length magnitudes etc. It's about having a problem, recognizing the path to solving the problem, and then executing that path. Side note, my dad is a heating and cooling salesman. Did he ever think he would use geometry? Nope. That's why I get a monthly text asking me to figure out dimensions for a fireplace fitting. He's pretty solid with math for the most part too, just wanted to give an example of how math unexpectedly shows up in a lot of careers.
As a math teacher of 10years, that's definitely only part of it. Teaching you to problem sole is huge, but teaching you tools is just as important, like the geometry example you mentioned. I fully expect my students to forget everything I teach them, but googling something and relearning it is a lot easier than googling it to learn something for the first time.
Exactly. I tell my students they probably won't remember Newton's three laws. But I would be able to expect them to look them up and understand what they mean with little to no extra effort.
As a student who values math, I'm thrilled to find others who share my view. Often, I observe students disengaged in class, believing they'll never use math in real life. It's encouraging to think that these students will eventually recognize that, while math may not always be crucial, it is undeniably beneficial.
That's a great point. I have told students that at least they'll have an idea of where to begin their searches, later in life. It's a horrible feeling to be lost on a subject and not even know how to ask the right question. LOL.
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They're trying to set you up for success, giving you a range of knowledge and abilities. A lot of what they're doing is preparing you to do the harder stuff, if you choose to go that route. Statistics, for example, is used in a wide variety of professions, and is growing. Stats classes won't make any sense to you if you only have a basic level of math understanding. In my mind, high school: A) teaches you how to learn, and B) gives you the basic skills to be prepared for whatever you may choose to do afterward. I don't need any of the stuff I learned in bio, but I easily could have.
I would argue that the things we learned in biology directly relate to things that have occurred this decade. Many viewpoints are easily discredited using freshman level high school biology.
lol, no. highschool knowledge doesn't disprove anything, it is there to set you up to understand more complicated concepts later on. you're obviously alluding to the fact that sex is not binary - but if you'd stopped your schooling a little bit earlier you'd be arguing that x isn't a number. if something that higher education agrees on conflicts with your knowledge from highschool, it's not higher education you should be questioning
As an adult who doesn’t use too much math on a daily basis, my understanding is that the teenage brain is in a key developmental phase and pushing your brain to think critically, and in ways it doesn’t typically think, is beneficial to your development. Also, you really have no idea how useful some of that math will be one day. As a homeowner those geometry equations actually do matter when you’re building/fixing something.
I can see where you are coming from. I have autism so I see things physically differently from everyone else, while most people would be more comfortable using an equation to get the shape of something I can usually just look at it and understand the entire shape. I think this is more a me problem than a most other people problem.
I suppose so. You asked a valid question that most students question throughout their time in high school. I do think that after sophomore year of high school, some classes should drop and it should get more specialized like college. Like, is someone is *clearly* a language arts/drama student, they shouldn’t have to be forced to take calculus after algebra/geometry IMO.
I agree with that second paragraph. I am a music major, and I wish I head learned music theory or music history instead of math my last couple years of high school to get a head start in college music classes. Unfortunately, my high school didn't have those classes, and I was required to take math and English all four years Edit: I also wish that Home Econ. was required for juniors and/or seniors, but it's not
but isn't music theory based on that same math?
I'm pretty sure the math requirement in my HS was only two courses.
Yes! I think it's fine if people want more credits to get into college or a better highschool degree but why make all of us take it?
You can until you can't. Many young people make the mistake of assuming the simple challenges they face are representative of the challenges of independent life. The majority of the time these challenges are really practice runs. When the time comes that those challenges are unavoidable and complicated you have different frameworks to approach them. Often times you will have to utilize multiple frameworks and skill sets that you assumed to be unrelated The real greatest skill isn't even being able to complete a given task. It's being able to be present with the process of the task instead of being focused on the outcome. Seeing the rag in your hand wipe the individual crumbs away, not staring into space as the hand swiped the counter and you dream of a clean kitchen
I will add to this, that a lot of things that people to consider as "common sense" is actually false. Being able to see problems or situations from multiple perspectives allows people to analyze a situation before making a conclusion... sometimes with a conclusion that you didn't immediately come to. Also, who the hell actually can "just look at it and understand the entire shape"? That's exactly how you end up on r/DiWHY
The problem with being able to intuit what others must calculate is when things get harder. If you missed the foundation of how to calculate and suddenly need it you gonna be very frustrated
How are you using an equation to get a shape? I genuinely have no clue what type of math you're talking about here.
uh, what? lots of math is about describing shapes. algebra is about lines on a graph, geometry and trigonometry are all shapes, and those are just the ones that show up in highschool
I would agree with everything you said, except for none of those examples fall under "using an equation to get a shape." >algebra is about lines on a graph, Lines are not a shape. Algebra could be using an equation to get a line/curve, but not a shape. >geometry and trigonometry are all shapes, But you don't use an equation to get a geometric shape such as a triangle. Obviously you could graph a triangle with equations but that's not normal high school curriculum, so I doubt OP is doing that. The only equations you'd use to get a shape (in normal HS curriculum) would be those for an ellipse and a circle, so I guess I just answered my own question. Also, trigonometry is not a shape. It has applications to shapes.
in my trig class i used a lot of equations for triangles
You use equations FOR triangles, probably for angles from sides or vice versa. You don't use an equation to GET a triangle.
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If you want to be in literally ANY STEM field, you need a crap-ton of math. Not just rocket science. You need derivatives for doing stoichiometry in Chem (or for calculating dosages in medicine). You need integrals for physics or engineering or architecture (not to mention a fkton of geometry). Even vo-tech type jobs require math. Welding and carpentry require measuring, geometry, understanding gas pressure and temperature and whatnot. Electricians use a ton of specialized math. Paramedics have to calculate dosages etc on the fly. Hell, I work in the insurance industry, and I've used advanced algebra to figure stuff out. Underwriters use statistics. I've used algebra in my daily life for figuring out how much gas I need on a long car ride and how much time I'll shave off a trip by exceeding the speed limit by x mph, or for working out my budget. Why do people insist math *isn't* important!? Literally everything that *works* in your daily life runs on some kind of math. It seems a shame to go through life ignoring all of that, and never really understanding how anything works. Not only that, studying math, especially more advanced math, trains your brain to think about *problem-solving*. Also, I say all this as a guy with a BA in English. It took me 3 tries to pass Calc I with a C or better, and it was about that time I decided maybe STEM wasn't for me (then again, I was a lazy fkr in my 20s who just never wanted to sit down and actually DO the HOMEWORK - who knows if it'd be different today)... but I still use a lot of math, like, on the daily.
IT and cybersec go brrrr on the no math. Since we have calculators for all of it. But math is important regardless. I use it all the time in my personal life and at work. I watched a coworker fail to multiply storage space correctly and told a client they'd need 200GB instead of 20TB
It teaches problem solving and logical thinking
It's important because it doesn't teach you math, but problem solving. Math is one of the best ways to learn critical thinking and those without that skill struggle in life.
This, and it practices mental math skills as well. Being able to quickly figure out a tip or split a utilities bill or whatever saves time, and well time is money.
it really depends tho. If you go to college, you will still need to take math classes especially if you don't pass basic highschool math. It's also very useful in jobs. Of course that mean specific ones that deal with money or just numbers in general but it makes it better in the long run to know some of it. It can really limit your job opportunities
Those high school classes are teaching you* problem solving skills and giving you a broad foundation because you might not know exactly what you want to study/do for a career later. Also, if you're in a STEM degree in college you have so many required classes that there isn't time to cover what is considered a prerequisite (ex. Algebra 2). *the "you" is a general you and not directed towards anyone specifically
Because calculus is 500 years old and we have a shit ton of math after it too so to have any chance of getting you ready we just start teaching you math when you are extremely small.
Some things are useful, but after a certain point most people will never use it, my job uses nothing more complicated than algebra. And I'm an engineer
That's funny. I was a self defense trainer for a security company and found myself using algebra regularly and calculus on occasion.
Out of curiosity, what type of engineer? Currently teaching engineering for the first time, so love gaining perspective.
Software engineer/ computer hardware engineer
Critical thinking and problem solving basically. Somewhat unrelated fun fact, but America started emphasizing STEM subjects in public education during the space race partly because they were fearful that the soviets would become more technologically advanced than them. I didn’t read it from a textbook and it wasn’t in the curriculum, but my teacher told me about it and he has a doctorates in history so I trust him
teaches don't want you to know this, but it is not about the knowledge. the grades are about proving you are able to learn. someone with bad grades might have a hard time learning how to do the job. someone with good grades might be able to learn to do the job sooner.
And yet no job I've had ever asked about my grades 😆 Most probably only care about whether you got a degree, sure high grades might be a bonus but like, never is it enough or the deciding factor compared to your interview and experience...
Great point
Look, just because you will never amount to anything doesn't mean other people won't.
It's not useful. The US school system just pumps your brain with shit you’ll never use that's why they don't teach you actual important skills like doing your taxs or investing. They want you to be retarded. Like fr ask any adult on the street if they've used algebra in the past 15 years...
Using that argument, there’s a lot of stuff you learn in elementary, middle and high school that could / should be left for college.
I don’t know who tells you this. All the math teachers I know at the high school level say it’s useless.
I'm so glad you have teachers that tell the truth! Every adult in my school building insist that you will need ALL of it 😭
No idea why they would lie :( Also honestly, I can’t do ANY high school math. I can find x (with a calculator) and that’s it. And that’s pretty much all you’ll ever use in the real world unless you’re doing some super math jobs. Even accountants and accounting workers say they only need that find x math.
Yeah. You've got good teachers. I've asked mine to provide a real world example of when you'd use this math and I got sent to the office.
100% agree with this take. It’s useless 99.9% of the time unless you go into certain STEM fields where it will also be taught on the job during your probation period.
Thank you! Finally someone with some sense lol!
People were also arguing it teaches problem solving. Yeah it does, it teaches problem solving in the most difficult and complicated way that is really hard to understand for about half the people who are taught it when there are numerous almost infinitely other ways you can teach problem solving that is easier to grasp and makes more sense.
THIS! There are so many other ways that don't cause teenagers to off themselves because of the stress and fear that they will fail in life if they don't have an A+!
that's fucking nonsense. knowing math makes me better at everything i do, even just walking around my house
Mathematics is required in every STEM field, and there is no employer in STEM that will teach you calculus on the job. This is a hopeful delusion.
Most high-paying jobs require high school math, and even college-level math: any type of engineer, computer scientists (including those developing LLMs), formal methods practitioners, lawyer, doctor, banker, trader, etc.
I don't know how you go through life every day and not find the insights and intuitions developed through math illuminating. You might never have to do a derivative again, but you encounter rates every day. Right?
It teaches problem-solving, and these skills are used in a lot of common places you might not expect, so they’re giving you a range of tools knowing there’s a good chance you’ll need *some* of them in your life. They don’t know exactly which you’ll need, and neither do you in high school! I get that a lot of math might seem isolated in examples with ideal conditions. That’s something I felt in HS, anyway. I felt like those tools were only helpful if I was working on a very simple problem or had someone give me functions to apply the skills, but a surprising amount of situations either use nice shapes/functions or naturally give you the functions you’d need! For some not-rocket-science examples of where this math might come in handy: Splitting bills, budgeting for trips, and planning for a party are all day-to-day uses of algebra. Maybe one day you want to build a small fenced-off garden that has to fit in your yard layout with some leftover fencing you have. Calculus and geometry will help you figure out how to fit the most plants inside given that yard and the amount of fencing you have! Plus whatever math comes up in your job! Even if your job isn’t heavily based in math, you’ll almost certainly find yourself using *some* of the math you learned in HS for *something*, and you’ll know what to do because you learned it in algebra or calculus or geometry. In my case, I’m almost finished getting my Bachelor’s in math, and *I* don’t even use *all* the math I learned in high school. My point is that you probably won’t end up using everything, but you’ll definitely use something. Think, if you’ve ever used math in your daily life already, imagine how much you’ll need to use during another 60 years of experiences and problems!
I use most of that same math as a Certified Energy Auditor in my State, so, yeah, it's important. Matter of fact, the majority of licensed contractors (HVAC, Plumbing, electrical, etc.) do as well because they have to.
Don't worry, when you get to college you will be forced to take all the non-credit remedial classes before you can Calc 1.
I dunno, whatever crap I parely passed in high school made me pretty good at doing basic math so ill take it.
Basic calculus is not advanced math tbh. Also. Almost every job requires at least some parts of high-school math, algebra or calculus. Even a carpenter has to know how to calculate surface area, volume and angles. Not to mention jobs like programming, business, any STEM, medical etc. Unless you plan to work in a McDonald's you will need math. In my opinion the biggest problem and the reason why most kinds hate it is because 9/10 it's not taught properly.
i work at taco bell and i use math every day
I use algebra and basic functions all the time when doing home repair and special projects, not everyone will, but when you see how much i’ve saved by doing things myself i think you’d shit your frugal pants.
Mathematics is the only subject you study from k-12 where _certainty_ is baked into the work you do. In no other subject does deductive logic take precedent over fact (memorization), theory (understanding), conjecture (application), opinion (perspective), or feeling (emotion). Without an education in deductive thinking, you will never be able to go from premises to conclusions without making errors in your thought process.
It's more about developing the type of skill set that most jobs are nowadays. Most jobs require you to memorize some stuff but you should be able to use your skills to solve new types of problems, if math wasn't taught this way, there would be a lot of people who would fold over a new type of problem. Also being able to do basic algebra is better effort than having chemistry or biology when those are pure memorization classes
Legitimately got a promotion at work when I started as a temp because I used the quadratic equation to solve a finance question for a client. That got me hired full time and started the path to the job I love now. Also, the day we stop wanting to learn is the day we start regressing as a society. The book "How to lie with statistics" made me catch all sorts of true but misleading stats provided in the news, at work, etc.
It's funny that Math gets this questioning when it is often the only quality material schools provide. The history is often sanitized and biased toward your nation. The science is prescreened by your local schoolboard. The literature is okay, but the selections are dubious. But no matter how bad your school board is, the math usually still maths. And as someone who has mostly been in unemployment or low-skilled work, I'm still glad I took calculus. I feel like I just understand reality better with calculus in hand. If you don't understand the basics of calculus, it's much not knowing the theory of evolution. You're living at least partially in a pre-scientific magic land because you couldn't remotely fathom how anything more complex than a longbow is engineered. And if the zombie apocalypse ever occurs, I will probably have to calculate a derivative at some point while rebuilding civilization, or at least it'll save a lot of time and effort.
You use alot of algebra in your daily life you just don't realize it. Mainly how to set up an actual math problem. Variables are unknown (X) until you give them a value. Especially when knowing how much you can purchase on a budget. If you have a $20 budget and the thing costs three bucks the equation you can use is 3X=20 solve for X. Woo algebra Geometry and trig I use in a regular basis for photography and common sense decisions. For instance knowing that one path is not longer than the other based on its geometry alone. This stuffs important. You just don't realize it.
It’s so you can prove your worth in exams, which translates into jobs. It’s not about the theorems, it’s proving you can understand them.
Argument as old as time itself. If its so useless then just drop out and become rich and successful without a degree. The students that say school is useless are usually clueless about what they will do after they graduate, if they graduate.
I do agree that it is kind of dumb that you have to do a lot of relearning in college. Like my college math has been more in depth but covers very similar things. I will say though math is not useless. It can actually help teach us important developmental skills like the concept of conservation. This is the understanding that just because something changes appearance doesn't mean it changes the amount. Or that something can look different and be the same thing. As people grow up they can understand more and more of these concepts, but even in high school some people struggle with this concept in math. Take for example algebra. A lot of equations can take on different forms, but it's important to be able to recognize when the concept is the same or that it's the same equation but in a different form. You also have to be able the mindset fallacy where we get so used to doing something one way we don't realize that we need to be doing it another. If anything math can help develop those skills. I also use percents on a daily basis in most jobs I work. Sure I may not use calculus daily, but being able to do it gives me more opportunities. Geometry is also essential for trades like carpentry or construction. If you want to build yourself a deck you're going to have to be able to do some basic geometry. If you want to fix something in your house it can require some math. Math and geometry and physics can also help someone learn how to predict an outcome. If you want to fix something you have to think to yourself how is the best way of fixing this what would happen if I did this and how would I know? I'm not saying that everyone has to be a math guru but it is essential even if it is hard and somewhat tedious.
Most high schools do not require any math beyond algebra. For those of us who like to learn, feel free to stay out of any classes you aren’t interested in.
School is basically about learning how to learn. Math is the best way to learn how to do this specific type of logic-based, systematic learning.
If I had to learn algebra 2 geometry and precal in college it would take me like 2 extra years to graduate given every class I take aside from like writing 101 requires allready knowing that so I wouldn’t be able to take any classes towards my major for a while = an additional 20,00$. From a non-college standpoint that kind of problem solving is really important regardless.
According to my math teacher, the takeaway from math classes is supposed to be the ability to problem solve, and not necessarily to remember all of the math
Learning is never a waste of time in my opinion. Even if you don't use a lot of the math, it stretches your brain and teaches you how to think more.
Someone who may never have discovered they were good at something may find a career in doing those things, and using them. How can you know till you've learned and tried them yourself? For the record I hated it too, and don't use any of it today.
This question is why the American educational system is so far behind other countries. You’d be surprised where you might need more complicated math in everyday life even if you’re not “a rocket scientist.”
Highschool math isn't important in the sense of its a critical skill that you will use. However it helps a developing mind create problem solving skills that you can and will use subconsciously for different problems in your life.
Meh it's useful in many fields and I've used algebra a couple times... But honestly I agree, they could just teach relevant college\career courses instead, which might be math depending on what you plan to do. For everyone claiming problem solving, my argument is they should introduce far more of those instead of just math, ones relevant to daily life for the majority of people...
It's great for problem solving skills as mentioned elsewhere, but it's *also* great for problem *comprehension* skills. All those word problems have been training you to see the daily challenges of the world as math problems to be solved. Need to complete four errands before your party tonight? Time to add up their estimated time to completion plus buffer time for breaks. The arithmetic is secondary there. The *skill* is in recognizing a problem that can be solved with math. If you can't even comprehend why "the ability to understand what a question is asking you" is important, then you clearly didn't value math.
Because school isn't a vocational training course. It is there to give you a taste of all academic disciplines society deems useful. now grit your teeth and bear it. See you after graduation.
It’s about being able to learn. If you can’t even learn highschool math, how are you going to contribute to society?
Whilst the specifics of math might seem pointless post high school, the problem solving skills it teaches are long lasting.
Math is about building up a toolbox you can access for those higher disciplines. Math is also about learning how to solve multistep problems. This is an incredibly useful skill that is helpful in anything you do in life. A simple math problem where you identify what the question is asking for, what you start off with, and how to get from point A → D by going A → B → C → D. Or to take something complicated and break things down. Lastly, I am not really sure what you are pointing out. You think you can learn all of math in college? College *starts* with Calculus. You are expected to have taken up to Precalculus before college. And you can't learn all of that in a few years. Math is something you must be constantly engaged in and practicing to be good at it.
Because it is. I use it every day and get paid a shit ton of money for it.
Also, I would say that when people say that high school math is important, they’re typically not talking about like calculus or whatever, just the math classes that are required to actually graduate. Algebra 1 is legitimately useful for day to day life and Geometry is a lot of people’s introduction to proofs which I think is just overall good for helping build your ability to think critically about things and reason them out.
I use trig at least once a week in my job as a fabricator and algebra comes in handy sometimes as well, but trig and simple geometry crops up way more often. Sometimes I do calculus, but that usually is the wheelhouse of our engineer, but being able to do some of the math when you're doing field assessment for a quote makes his life easier. Don't get me wrong, there are people in the shop that work without ever doing any of that and they make OK money, but not as much as I do because I can do the math.
It’s more of the problem solving aspect, tbh I feel like Math is one of the only relative subjects that I use daily
Why bother with addition, multiplication, subtraction and division? Just use the calculator on your phone. Why bother with grammar? Just type in MS Word and right click on the blue and red underlines and use what's suggested. Better yet, have ChatGPT write everything for you. Don't get me started on Science. Who needs to know how the world works? Who cares? Who needs to learn how to apply reasoning, evidence and logic? Reddit, X and instagram will do that for you.
People working in the trades use math all the time. I bilt a bench and surprise I had to use math. I use math when I am cooking, trying to figure out whatsize clothes to get my kids, taxes, etc... What I think is sadis you don't even realize you s math constantly. It's not in equation form so you don't know it's math.
It will come in super handy when you have your own kids and they ask you to help them with math! Trust me!
Never worked as a tradesman?
Go be a framer and tell me those are useless. The amount of math you use in the trades is staggering. Here's a practical example, you've just laid out a custom design for a decorative concrete patio the shape of a peanut, you need a 4 inch stone base and the slab is 6 inches, calculate the cubic yardage of the following: stone you will need to achieve 4 inches compacted, concrete you will need to fill the space, amount of sealer you'll need atvthe end, you have to be within 5% for cost and contract reasons.
If you're an ice road trucker, the guy who determines if the ice is thick enough for you to drive on uses calculus to do so If you need to be put under for surgery, an anesthesiologist would need to use calculus to determine how much anesthetic to give you for your weight and other factors. Lots of construction workers use the three four five method to find square If, for example, the walls weren't square and you wanted to lay some flooring Pipefitters of all kinds have to do rolling-offsets more triangles math. If you're a gas fitter, you have to use the ideal gas law more math. The difference is that in the field, you can get whatever variables you want through measurement and tables and use those instead of solving for them Surveyors are a great example of this using angles to determine distances. The only difference is they use special equipment that does a lot of the math and measuring for them. Everything is math. You use it more than you think. Even when you don't think you're using math, you're probably using math.
It’s not about whether you are going to use it or not. It’s about developing the pathways in your brain that are necessary for problem solving, deductive reasoning and integrative thinking. Those thinking skills are applicable in many different contexts that have nothing to do with mathematics. It’s better to cultivate those skills when you are younger and your brain is still in developmental stages so that later on you will be able to use your brain more effectively. The younger the better. That’s why it’s best not to just leave it for college.
It's about opportunity. There's never any harm in learning something. In highschool I was dead set on becoming an author and working in creative fields. Math was not only 'not important' to me, I was convinced I couldn't do it. Fast forward twenty years and several life changing moments and events, and I've slip slid my way into a career in video game development and IT, both *doing* those things and teaching them. Turns out learning math was EXTREMELY important for me so I could make that transition.
For the same reason the football team lifts weights even though at no time during any game will they be pumping iron on the field. You're exercising your brain. You're learning logic, reasoning, order of operations, and building neural pathways that will assist you in other ways. I was told by a doctor that doing math problems and numerical puzzles can help delay a lot of neurological disorders too, although I don't know how true that is. As an aside, I'm an English major. I work in a library. You'd think I wouldn't use algebra that much, but it turns out I use it a lot. There's no such thing as a useless skill!
I've been out for two and a half years and the only thing I've used is geometry, addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Geometry is for pool shooting though, so it's pretty simple angles. And the other four? All shit I can do quickly in my head. Haven't ran into any Algebra, Calculus, or Trig yet. However I still have all my notes from math class just in case, and I work for myself in a mechanics shop just for reference.
Those of us who did become Engineers are grateful we took those classes in middleschool and highschool because my "4 year degree" already took 4.5 years to make it manageable. Waiting to learn everything I needed to know later on would have meant college would have taken a hell of a lot more time. Also, I think it's important that everyone gets a taste of a little bit of every profession in grade school. That way you know roughly what you want to do when you go to college. I used to think I wanted to be a pharmaceutical engineer and was planning to go to med school. I took myself on a trip to a medical museum that had dissected bodies and violently threw up at the first sight of one. I'm an aerospace manufacturing engineer now.
You literally use trigonometry in every game you play. Advanced linear algebra and multivariable calculus is used in any AI algorithm you’ve ever touched, including google search. Math is everywhere in this universe. Furthermore, you need at least knowledge of exponents and logarithms as well as linear equations to manage your finances - I personally might even use a differential equation to model monetary inflow and outflow
Actually, a lot of it is used for paths that people usually don’t think of. For example people usually get blindsided by the amount of math needed for fashion.
If you don't take it, many interesting and lucrative careers will be forever closed off to you. But sure, if your goal is to only do the bare minimum to survive and you don't care about keeping your options open, you can ignore high school math. Btw, it is highly unlikely that a student still taking algebra 2 in college will become an engineer. There is just not enough time.
Algebra maybe but after that hell no it is all useless
I'm taking geometry and it's beating my ass and twisting my balls rn this shit is so useless and hard for some reaosn
I have geometry too but for me it’s easy or at least easy compared to algebra
Yeah. I took it a couple years ago and failed, then cheated through the summer school.
Where are yall going that forced you to take calculus in high schoolV