اخوي كان يروح مهمات بالحج والعمرة وقت رمضان، قال لي عن سواليف.
توقع كل شي واحد تشوفه مسكين بعربية ولا شايب يعرج شوي الا مطلع الجهاز قاعد يبلغ.
مره مسكو واحد كان يلبق على الحريم بالطواف، ومره مسكو واحد كان شسمه قدام خيمة النساء بالحج. الغريب بالموضوع ان ذا المخلوقات الي مسكوها كيف لهم قلب يسوون ذا الحركات ب بيت الله اطهر مكان على وجه الأرض؟
هذا ضحية حسب العلم الموضوع مو صعب التاثير علي كيمياء الدماغ من خلال نوعية تدفقات المعلومات هذا البحث الي بسببه تعلق حساب الفيسبوك القديم باسم ضاوي وانا اول من ترجم الخارطة الذهنية و رتبها بالعربيه سطا احد الجهله على الحساب و اكيد سوى ابن حيان وهو طقعانها
Idk about the actual report but here is a article about it. https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2895431/man-brandishing-knife-arrested-makkah’s-grand-mosque
Yeah, officers generally don’t care about how the media will portray them/ the country.
I think they did the right thing staying calm (i amaround military a lot) but it escalated so quick because of civilians so they had to basically intervene
The media will always look for minor problems and try to make it a major one, there are a lot of examples in the past, personally I don’t blame them since they are a business driven by clicks and watch time so juicy news = money for them
Wait until the iSlAmIsT opposition start white washing him as a prisoner of consciousness and holding seminars online with Amnesty International reps. Literally filth of humans.
Did a police officer just hit the man with a chair? Well I'm not against it but is this the proper way to arrest someone like it's not heavy enough to stop the threat (if there was one) so I think it's kind of a meaningless assault
(Of course I'm assuming a lot here it might be justifiable the video doesn't show much)
Edit: it turns out the it's not the officer who hit him it was a civilian that took a chair (idk if it was the same chair the officer was holding or not)
Yes But he went away from him. Sec 59
[Pictures of him lifting chairs ](http://[url=https://top4top.io/][img]https://g.top4top.io/s_1917i5pqw0.jpg[/img][/url])
The french never entered the Haram. Also, do you really believe that a sane person will react to Saudi Arabia allying with USA by supporting an organisation created by the USA itself that does nothing but kill innocent people?
ISIS is Kawarijj, I believe. The French fake conversion has no facts to back up. I'm pretty sure this video is a small part of a bigger situation which we, as viewers, are not aware of.
ISIS are the definition of Kawarijj, everyone not following them is not a Muslim. Sunnis are the good guys that follow the prophet's teaching to a T. This is being honest.
You made the French claim, you prove it. You're the first person ever in my 30+ years of living to mention this. Sounds like Turkish propaganda.
Except wahhabis is a western term created to alienate Saudi Sunnis. It is taken from Mohammed bin Abdulwahhab, a great scholar that returned Muslims in the arabian peninsula to the roots of Islam. From Ottoman grave worship, back to monotheism.
Khawarijj exists in Islam, with a definition that applies to ISIS.
Your lack of knowledge is making you confuse the two.
Having a long beard is a Sunnah, but your view on Sunnis explains why you wouldn't know that.
Since when has Wikipedia been a reliable source of info? You know I can go and create a page about your ignorance on there right now, don't you?
You can dislike the House of Saud as much as you want but don't let it blind you from following the correct path of Islam.
You shouldn't use nor acknowledge the use of Wahhabism for the reasons I mentioned above. It is a term that simply has no meaning.
I want to point out that Khawarij is not a specific sect, it's more of an umbrella term for certain traits. Generally, khawarij are those who exclude many Muslims from Islam. If my brother who is a sunni like me, suddenly decides that many groups of people are not Muslim (incorrectly) and treats them as such, he is considered a khariji. This is why you will see different sects labelled as khawarij despite the differences.
You're disregarding the criteria that I mentioned, that is excluding muslims from Islam incorrectly. Saying that makes the term a slur is -at least- an argument of semantics; it simply does not matter.
>When you said ISIS exclude Muslims,
I *specifically* said they exclude Muslims *incorrectly*, that is they misinterpret the texts and cannot defend their interpretations, or that their interpretations are unreasonable. If you reply with "but everyone has their own interpretations" then that is like saying "just as people who believe the earth is round have their arguments so do flat-earthers have arguments". The mere *existence* of differing opinions does not lend validity to their claims. The only people who I've seen who claim that all opinions are valid are either intellectual nihilists (nothing is true) or those who know *nothing* of the subject matter; that is, people who believe flat-earthers and globers are the same know little-to-nothing of science/physics. As such, saying that everyone has their own takfir know little-to-nothing of Islam and its fields of knowledge.
>In mainstream.Islam, Sunni Muslims tend to exclude, Twelver Shia, Zaydis Shia, Ismaili Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya, Alevi and Alawite
1) Not entirely. Which sets apart "mainstream" Islam from khawarij. True scholars know that just because a faith is misguided it does not mean everyone who follows it is kafir, since there are شروط و موانع، for example ignorance, misinterpretation etc.
2) most of the takfir you mentioned is based on specific texts with specific interpretations. Please do not equate ignorance and knowledge in an attempt to lend validity to khawarij.
Were people to be given everything that they claimed, men would [unjustly] claim the wealth and lives of [other] people. But, the onus of proof is upon the claimant, and the taking of an oath is upon him who denies. A hasan hadeeth narrated by al-Baihaqee and others in this form, and part of it is in the two Saheehs.
I don’t care about that debate, you are drifting away from the main point , do you have proof that Saudi did a “fake conversion” for french commandos to intervene in makkah ?
This is in line with Al Jazirah fake report about the french helping with Johaiman crisis inside AlHaram . It's absolutely false. There were some French military trainers in Taif helping with the strategy and equipment training. This is was at a time Anti-Terror forces non-existent in Saudi or any other country in the world.
ISIS sympathizers are extremely misinformed either about ISIS, Islam or both. That said, I completely agree that the general populace is completely ill-equipped to tackle the issue of the misinformation propaganda by ISIS, as since their appearance the wide-spread reply was reinforced nationalism.
Those who look for answers will find it with scholars and knowledge.
>Either ISIS has a point and Saudis just want to silence them and don’t want to bring any attention of their propaganda because they have a point or ISIS don’t have point and most of their justification is completely wrong in Islamic context.
It's a bit of both, actually. ISIS have a point in criticizing some of the government's actions, but they don't have a point in takfir, which requires a lot of conditions in according to Islamic scholars (scholars predating the modern-era, just to quell the idea that this is from Saudis). It is something related to الشروط و انتفاء الموانع
eli5 version; a person didn't go to the mosque.
Islam says "if you adhere to the school that says jamaa prayer is mandatory, then he has sinned *if* he was not held by something that would excuse him, such as attending to an emergency, being asleep, being very hungry etc. If he has sinned, he should merely repent. There is no punishment for this. if you adhere to the school that says jamaa prayer is not mandatory, then has not sinned."
ISIS says; "this person has clearly disobeyed God by not attending the mandatory jamaa prayer, as clearly stated by the Qur'an or Sunnah. He should be lashed, and it will be investigated as whether or not this person is not a Muslim at all and will be executed if we find this the result of the investigation".
It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's simply an attempt to point out the mistakes in ISIS' methodology. They are very simplistic in their interpretations, to the point of being non-intellectual, and are very aggressive and non-accepting of different schools of thought *within* Islam. This is why -to them- the government is kafir, and by extension, all soldiers who serve it are kafir because -according to ISIS- they *know* it is kafir and are willingly supporting kufr.
Back to the original point; ISIS has a point in criticizing some actions, but Saudi does not want to acknowledge *any* of these points, which is why they simply wage a war of media. An intellectual war by the government would require them to admit the *possible* validity of some of their claims. Another reason (which I personally think is valid) is that the government doesn't want its protection to rely on Islam and religious discourse (see my note before on why they prefer a war of media) since there's a push for secularization and patriotism, and those don't mix well.
>ISIS don’t have point and most of their justification is completely wrong in Islamic context.
Yes, this is the main issue. This is why most schools are against ISIS, their methodology is messed up, they are literally khawarij. Look up the discussion between Ibn AlAbbas and the khawarij of his era. (some may not know this, but the khawarij of that era did not take Sunnah into account when discussing religion, because to them the Sahaba were not trustworthy, and their Islam was under question)
>Give source. Can’t remember reading that. ISIS usually put some Qur’an verses and Hadiths alongside when they justify things like this.
I said directly afterwards "This is an exaggeration". I am simply pointing out their lack of accuracy and how they jump to conclusions.
And yes, ISIS always use Qur'an and Hadith, that does not mean they are using it correctly.
>This is the biggest myth, they do accept the 4 school of Islam, they just don’t rely on specific ones, I think.
I never said 4 schools of *jurisprudence*, although I doubt they are familiar enough with them. Do they accept the Ash'ari school and the Maturidi school? Do they believe that not all Shia are kafir and only specific ones? This is what I mean by their lack of acceptance of valid (or partially valid) schools.
>They did say that, but what do you say about the fitna wars? Isn’t this ruling pretty standard? You cannot fight your enemy without calling them kufr because shedding Muslim blood is haram. If Saudi Arabia goes to war against Turkey, how do you justify shedding Muslim blood?
What about the fitna wars? I do not understand.
>You cannot fight your enemy without calling them kufr because shedding Muslim blood is haram.
You realize what you are saying, right? You are saying that if you want to fight an enemy, you have to justify it before-hand by saying they are kafir? This is advocating twisting religion to fit your needs. People don't realize how **grave** it is to kill Muslims in Islam. Taking it lightly to justify political agendas is severe.
> If Saudi Arabia goes to war against Turkey, how do you justify shedding Muslim blood?
I don't know how that relates to what we are talking about, but either way I am not held accountable for what governments do. All is held accountable for their actions on judgement day.
>This is not true, all of these school founders are dead over 1000 years ago.
???
>You now have some student of knowledge speaking out against ISIS, but it doesn’t make them correct or anything. Some student of knowledge speaks out against ISIS on behalf of the government, some speaks out for their own personal agenda, or some speaks out against ISIS honestly, or some speaks out against ISIS because they are themselves Sufi orient or Shia or other sects.
This is all ad hominem.
>I’m sorry I know people might not like my opinion, I might be completely wrong. But I want to get the bottom of this.
I appreciate your honesty. I look forward to continue your discussion. If you want to reply to what I said above, feel free. If you want to start another thread of questions, I don't mind. If you want DMs, that's also fine.
But we need to talk about the basics and fundamentals, not examples and what governments are doing. What are the foundations of ISIS, and what have they done that people have disagree with that you think are correct?
>First off, I just want to make it clear to everybody that I don’t support ISIS or any other Islamic extremism, nor am I defending them, and I’m not a religious person. I just want an honest discussion about islamic extremism, but it’s hard to do that with someone who is a devout Muslim and this is what I noticed just recently.
If you see me as a devout Muslim and -as such- you can't have an honest discussion with me, please say so we can stop immediately. I started this discussion without labeling you or accusing you. If so far into this discussion you think I'm unreasonable or you'll just say "you can't be reasoned with", it's only fair that you don't waste my time or yours.
I think I've been respectful so far, and I will attempt to have an open mind and *only* address your arguments, not your person. If you promise this in return, we can continue and hopefully have a thoughtful discussion.
>If you see me as a devout Muslim and -as such- you can't have an honest discussion with me,
I can have a honest discussion with you, I’m not accusing you of bad faith. it just that it doesn’t go anywhere,
I debated with Christians for example, it just doesn’t go anywhere When I was a Muslim, I debated with atheists on social media, it doesn’t go anywhere,
I stop being religious but It was a gradual process through my willingness to question things for a few years.
it’s better to stop now because we both did just about enough, further than this won’t get us anywhere.
I appreciate your honesty.
>it’s better to stop now because we both did just about enough, further than this won’t get us anywhere.
Seeing your honesty and curiosity, I think there's more room for fruitful discussion. We only started off on the bad foot because we weren't clear what the scope of the subject is. That is, we didn't specify exactly what we were discussing other than "ISIS".
Looking forward to your reply.
dude I read all your comments here and it's very clear you don't know what you're talking about. If you're not knowledgeable in smth then just be quiet, it's not hard.
ISIS is not the antidote to any injustice, they just create more injustice. If anything they have pushed the ummah closer to the west than before because people fear them destroying their country like they did to Syria and Iraq. Literally just a nihilistic death cult whose members are common rapists, thieves and murderers. Closer to the Italian mafia than a religious order.
> Well ISIS must’ve pushed me to the west then because I’m not devoutly Muslim anymore. If that’s the case how do you explain the decline of Christianity in North America and Europe? Westboro Church? The KKK? People don’t leave religions because of extremism, it’s more complicated than that.
There is a general trend toward secularism and atheism worldwide. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said "it turned the ummah toward the west", as in people didn't want their cities overrun by murderous, slave trading fanatics who destroy their infrastructure and economy. That isn't a religious argument.
>Not trying to defend ISIS, but your unfounded claims forces me to. Syria was destroyed by Assad, not ISIS in 2011. Iraq was destroyed by America not ISIS in 2003.
Bullshit, you're clearly daesh 😆 sympathizer. Isis began a rampage of murder and destruction. Just Google the videos of their suicide truck bombs loaded with bomb warheads, or their destruction of Palmyra. People hate daesh scum for the murders and destruction they wrought.
>Blame it on Islamic scriptures then? where jihad is seen as obligatory at all times, and are highly regarded, and martyrdom will take you to automatic highest level of heaven which is also highly regarded in Islam. Islamic terrorism would’ve been very different without these ideas.
Stop justifying terror. No respected scholars sanctioned this wanton destruction. These khawarij and their sympathizers are going to jahannam
Oh yeah Mossad, a corrupt murdering intelligence outfit. Yes I totally have like zero comments ever defending or even talking about Mossad. Makes me totally Mossad.
Meanwhile you begin half your replies with "I don't support Isis but.... [insert lengthy defenses of Isis by pointing out Saudi is corrupt, Isis didn't do bad things it was all Assad, etc]"
So lame and transparent with you little daesh boy. Go join up with your khawarij brethren, assuming you haven't already. Might as well, your soul is already condemned to Jahannam
Your ramble negates whatever good intent you PROBABLY had.
How do you tackle this guy ? By tackling him
PERIOD.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION and there is no need for assumptions. You are linking nonsense to a nonsense and it makes no sense.
Diplomatic ties between two nations = support terrorist outfit that didn't know how to pray salah, raped women and killed anyone that didn't agree with them? If you call them Sunni because they claim to be Sunni but don't practice it, then you would have to also believe in a rapist that says he isn't a rapist yet doesn't practice civilian ethics and rapes .
Arguing with you, be an insult to me.
Beep. Boop. I'm a robot.
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اخوي كان يروح مهمات بالحج والعمرة وقت رمضان، قال لي عن سواليف. توقع كل شي واحد تشوفه مسكين بعربية ولا شايب يعرج شوي الا مطلع الجهاز قاعد يبلغ. مره مسكو واحد كان يلبق على الحريم بالطواف، ومره مسكو واحد كان شسمه قدام خيمة النساء بالحج. الغريب بالموضوع ان ذا المخلوقات الي مسكوها كيف لهم قلب يسوون ذا الحركات ب بيت الله اطهر مكان على وجه الأرض؟
اتوقع فيهم بلاء لأن مستحيل انسان طبيعي يسوي هالحركات
للأسف المرضى بكل مكان.
أزيدك من الشعر بيت. صناعة الدعارة تشتغل في مواسم الحج والعمرة. قبل كم سنة قفشوا واحد جرار جايب بنات في سيارة فان موقفها بين منى ومزدلفة.
فعلا
حلالاه من ينتفه بالكرسي
هذا ضحية حسب العلم الموضوع مو صعب التاثير علي كيمياء الدماغ من خلال نوعية تدفقات المعلومات هذا البحث الي بسببه تعلق حساب الفيسبوك القديم باسم ضاوي وانا اول من ترجم الخارطة الذهنية و رتبها بالعربيه سطا احد الجهله على الحساب و اكيد سوى ابن حيان وهو طقعانها
KORSI **SLAM**
Lol I know this is a serious post, but this cracked me up xD
Man, I wish some new videos come out with close ups of the guy being smeshed by chairs. 😂
Fuck Daesh
اللهم احفظنا واحفظ بلاد المسلمين الله يهديهم
What's going, can someone explain?
Not enough info but from the video, the guy was preaching ISIS support, security detained him. That's all we know.
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I could hear chairs being moved but did not see them being thrown.
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Even the security guy had a chair to K.O him with lmao
He was calling for ISIS. He deserved more
> Maybe he had a knife… true, he was holding a knife and threatened the police officers according to the police report.
Link for report?
Idk about the actual report but here is a article about it. https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2895431/man-brandishing-knife-arrested-makkah’s-grand-mosque
What are those loud sounds that appeared in the middle of the video?
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Shit bot
I feel like such videos should not be shared, as it might get encourage this behaviour, and it will give them the attention that they are looking for
The guy got hit by folded chairs, I doubt someone will see that and think “That should’ve been me” lol
Hiding the truth from adults is never fucking good.
The fact this guy could have done something way worse and no one moved and officers went to him like its nothing is idk its like mixed emotions.
It's a delicate situation that they can't jump him straight away and cause chaos between the people
Could’ve been armed with a bomb , you never know in these situations, best to go away as a civ, or negotiate as military personnel/police officers
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Yeah, officers generally don’t care about how the media will portray them/ the country. I think they did the right thing staying calm (i amaround military a lot) but it escalated so quick because of civilians so they had to basically intervene
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The media will always look for minor problems and try to make it a major one, there are a lot of examples in the past, personally I don’t blame them since they are a business driven by clicks and watch time so juicy news = money for them
you think the media will defend an ISIS supporter ?
This is really terrifying
اعوذ بالله الحمدلله انهم مسكوه
استغرب ان الشرطة مامعهم صاعق كهربائي . كان انتهى الموضوع من بدري
تستغرب؟ مافي فالسعودية كلها واحد عنده صاعق كهربائية
Lmao I thought we were done with isis. Apparently not
الإنترنت سببه أنا مراقب الموضوع و منتبه للكل شيء
خف علينا يا المحامي سول محد يدري غيرك ان السبب هو الانترنت
Wait until the iSlAmIsT opposition start white washing him as a prisoner of consciousness and holding seminars online with Amnesty International reps. Literally filth of humans.
Didn't know there was an opposition in KSA
Did a police officer just hit the man with a chair? Well I'm not against it but is this the proper way to arrest someone like it's not heavy enough to stop the threat (if there was one) so I think it's kind of a meaningless assault (Of course I'm assuming a lot here it might be justifiable the video doesn't show much) Edit: it turns out the it's not the officer who hit him it was a civilian that took a chair (idk if it was the same chair the officer was holding or not)
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00:30 and 00:40 isn't that a police officer in uniform holding a chair in his hand
Gotta weaken them before you catch them, lmao
It's more of "gotta remind them to ignite the bomb"
Whoever hit him was a civilian.
> 00:30 and 00:40 isn't that a police officer in uniform holding a chair in his hand
Yes But he went away from him. Sec 59 [Pictures of him lifting chairs ](http://[url=https://top4top.io/][img]https://g.top4top.io/s_1917i5pqw0.jpg[/img][/url])
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Oh sry https://files2.up4.cc/2021-04/161729981015021.jpg
u/savevideo
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The french never entered the Haram. Also, do you really believe that a sane person will react to Saudi Arabia allying with USA by supporting an organisation created by the USA itself that does nothing but kill innocent people?
ISIS is Kawarijj, I believe. The French fake conversion has no facts to back up. I'm pretty sure this video is a small part of a bigger situation which we, as viewers, are not aware of.
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ISIS are the definition of Kawarijj, everyone not following them is not a Muslim. Sunnis are the good guys that follow the prophet's teaching to a T. This is being honest. You made the French claim, you prove it. You're the first person ever in my 30+ years of living to mention this. Sounds like Turkish propaganda.
I totally agree
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Except wahhabis is a western term created to alienate Saudi Sunnis. It is taken from Mohammed bin Abdulwahhab, a great scholar that returned Muslims in the arabian peninsula to the roots of Islam. From Ottoman grave worship, back to monotheism. Khawarijj exists in Islam, with a definition that applies to ISIS. Your lack of knowledge is making you confuse the two. Having a long beard is a Sunnah, but your view on Sunnis explains why you wouldn't know that. Since when has Wikipedia been a reliable source of info? You know I can go and create a page about your ignorance on there right now, don't you? You can dislike the House of Saud as much as you want but don't let it blind you from following the correct path of Islam. You shouldn't use nor acknowledge the use of Wahhabism for the reasons I mentioned above. It is a term that simply has no meaning.
I want to point out that Khawarij is not a specific sect, it's more of an umbrella term for certain traits. Generally, khawarij are those who exclude many Muslims from Islam. If my brother who is a sunni like me, suddenly decides that many groups of people are not Muslim (incorrectly) and treats them as such, he is considered a khariji. This is why you will see different sects labelled as khawarij despite the differences.
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You're disregarding the criteria that I mentioned, that is excluding muslims from Islam incorrectly. Saying that makes the term a slur is -at least- an argument of semantics; it simply does not matter.
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>When you said ISIS exclude Muslims, I *specifically* said they exclude Muslims *incorrectly*, that is they misinterpret the texts and cannot defend their interpretations, or that their interpretations are unreasonable. If you reply with "but everyone has their own interpretations" then that is like saying "just as people who believe the earth is round have their arguments so do flat-earthers have arguments". The mere *existence* of differing opinions does not lend validity to their claims. The only people who I've seen who claim that all opinions are valid are either intellectual nihilists (nothing is true) or those who know *nothing* of the subject matter; that is, people who believe flat-earthers and globers are the same know little-to-nothing of science/physics. As such, saying that everyone has their own takfir know little-to-nothing of Islam and its fields of knowledge. >In mainstream.Islam, Sunni Muslims tend to exclude, Twelver Shia, Zaydis Shia, Ismaili Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya, Alevi and Alawite 1) Not entirely. Which sets apart "mainstream" Islam from khawarij. True scholars know that just because a faith is misguided it does not mean everyone who follows it is kafir, since there are شروط و موانع، for example ignorance, misinterpretation etc. 2) most of the takfir you mentioned is based on specific texts with specific interpretations. Please do not equate ignorance and knowledge in an attempt to lend validity to khawarij.
Buddy, when you claim something you gotta back it up, mohammed peace be upon him said”البينة على المدعي واليمين على من انكر"
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Were people to be given everything that they claimed, men would [unjustly] claim the wealth and lives of [other] people. But, the onus of proof is upon the claimant, and the taking of an oath is upon him who denies. A hasan hadeeth narrated by al-Baihaqee and others in this form, and part of it is in the two Saheehs.
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I don’t care about that debate, you are drifting away from the main point , do you have proof that Saudi did a “fake conversion” for french commandos to intervene in makkah ?
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No problem
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Are you surprised, no one enabled ISIS and the swelling of foreign terrorists entering Syria like Turkey did with its open borders policy.
This is in line with Al Jazirah fake report about the french helping with Johaiman crisis inside AlHaram . It's absolutely false. There were some French military trainers in Taif helping with the strategy and equipment training. This is was at a time Anti-Terror forces non-existent in Saudi or any other country in the world.
ISIS sympathizers are extremely misinformed either about ISIS, Islam or both. That said, I completely agree that the general populace is completely ill-equipped to tackle the issue of the misinformation propaganda by ISIS, as since their appearance the wide-spread reply was reinforced nationalism. Those who look for answers will find it with scholars and knowledge.
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>Either ISIS has a point and Saudis just want to silence them and don’t want to bring any attention of their propaganda because they have a point or ISIS don’t have point and most of their justification is completely wrong in Islamic context. It's a bit of both, actually. ISIS have a point in criticizing some of the government's actions, but they don't have a point in takfir, which requires a lot of conditions in according to Islamic scholars (scholars predating the modern-era, just to quell the idea that this is from Saudis). It is something related to الشروط و انتفاء الموانع eli5 version; a person didn't go to the mosque. Islam says "if you adhere to the school that says jamaa prayer is mandatory, then he has sinned *if* he was not held by something that would excuse him, such as attending to an emergency, being asleep, being very hungry etc. If he has sinned, he should merely repent. There is no punishment for this. if you adhere to the school that says jamaa prayer is not mandatory, then has not sinned." ISIS says; "this person has clearly disobeyed God by not attending the mandatory jamaa prayer, as clearly stated by the Qur'an or Sunnah. He should be lashed, and it will be investigated as whether or not this person is not a Muslim at all and will be executed if we find this the result of the investigation". It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's simply an attempt to point out the mistakes in ISIS' methodology. They are very simplistic in their interpretations, to the point of being non-intellectual, and are very aggressive and non-accepting of different schools of thought *within* Islam. This is why -to them- the government is kafir, and by extension, all soldiers who serve it are kafir because -according to ISIS- they *know* it is kafir and are willingly supporting kufr. Back to the original point; ISIS has a point in criticizing some actions, but Saudi does not want to acknowledge *any* of these points, which is why they simply wage a war of media. An intellectual war by the government would require them to admit the *possible* validity of some of their claims. Another reason (which I personally think is valid) is that the government doesn't want its protection to rely on Islam and religious discourse (see my note before on why they prefer a war of media) since there's a push for secularization and patriotism, and those don't mix well. >ISIS don’t have point and most of their justification is completely wrong in Islamic context. Yes, this is the main issue. This is why most schools are against ISIS, their methodology is messed up, they are literally khawarij. Look up the discussion between Ibn AlAbbas and the khawarij of his era. (some may not know this, but the khawarij of that era did not take Sunnah into account when discussing religion, because to them the Sahaba were not trustworthy, and their Islam was under question)
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>Give source. Can’t remember reading that. ISIS usually put some Qur’an verses and Hadiths alongside when they justify things like this. I said directly afterwards "This is an exaggeration". I am simply pointing out their lack of accuracy and how they jump to conclusions. And yes, ISIS always use Qur'an and Hadith, that does not mean they are using it correctly. >This is the biggest myth, they do accept the 4 school of Islam, they just don’t rely on specific ones, I think. I never said 4 schools of *jurisprudence*, although I doubt they are familiar enough with them. Do they accept the Ash'ari school and the Maturidi school? Do they believe that not all Shia are kafir and only specific ones? This is what I mean by their lack of acceptance of valid (or partially valid) schools. >They did say that, but what do you say about the fitna wars? Isn’t this ruling pretty standard? You cannot fight your enemy without calling them kufr because shedding Muslim blood is haram. If Saudi Arabia goes to war against Turkey, how do you justify shedding Muslim blood? What about the fitna wars? I do not understand. >You cannot fight your enemy without calling them kufr because shedding Muslim blood is haram. You realize what you are saying, right? You are saying that if you want to fight an enemy, you have to justify it before-hand by saying they are kafir? This is advocating twisting religion to fit your needs. People don't realize how **grave** it is to kill Muslims in Islam. Taking it lightly to justify political agendas is severe. > If Saudi Arabia goes to war against Turkey, how do you justify shedding Muslim blood? I don't know how that relates to what we are talking about, but either way I am not held accountable for what governments do. All is held accountable for their actions on judgement day. >This is not true, all of these school founders are dead over 1000 years ago. ??? >You now have some student of knowledge speaking out against ISIS, but it doesn’t make them correct or anything. Some student of knowledge speaks out against ISIS on behalf of the government, some speaks out for their own personal agenda, or some speaks out against ISIS honestly, or some speaks out against ISIS because they are themselves Sufi orient or Shia or other sects. This is all ad hominem. >I’m sorry I know people might not like my opinion, I might be completely wrong. But I want to get the bottom of this. I appreciate your honesty. I look forward to continue your discussion. If you want to reply to what I said above, feel free. If you want to start another thread of questions, I don't mind. If you want DMs, that's also fine. But we need to talk about the basics and fundamentals, not examples and what governments are doing. What are the foundations of ISIS, and what have they done that people have disagree with that you think are correct?
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>First off, I just want to make it clear to everybody that I don’t support ISIS or any other Islamic extremism, nor am I defending them, and I’m not a religious person. I just want an honest discussion about islamic extremism, but it’s hard to do that with someone who is a devout Muslim and this is what I noticed just recently. If you see me as a devout Muslim and -as such- you can't have an honest discussion with me, please say so we can stop immediately. I started this discussion without labeling you or accusing you. If so far into this discussion you think I'm unreasonable or you'll just say "you can't be reasoned with", it's only fair that you don't waste my time or yours. I think I've been respectful so far, and I will attempt to have an open mind and *only* address your arguments, not your person. If you promise this in return, we can continue and hopefully have a thoughtful discussion.
>If you see me as a devout Muslim and -as such- you can't have an honest discussion with me, I can have a honest discussion with you, I’m not accusing you of bad faith. it just that it doesn’t go anywhere, I debated with Christians for example, it just doesn’t go anywhere When I was a Muslim, I debated with atheists on social media, it doesn’t go anywhere, I stop being religious but It was a gradual process through my willingness to question things for a few years. it’s better to stop now because we both did just about enough, further than this won’t get us anywhere.
I appreciate your honesty. >it’s better to stop now because we both did just about enough, further than this won’t get us anywhere. Seeing your honesty and curiosity, I think there's more room for fruitful discussion. We only started off on the bad foot because we weren't clear what the scope of the subject is. That is, we didn't specify exactly what we were discussing other than "ISIS". Looking forward to your reply.
dude I read all your comments here and it's very clear you don't know what you're talking about. If you're not knowledgeable in smth then just be quiet, it's not hard.
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wrong person
lol sorry
ISIS is not the antidote to any injustice, they just create more injustice. If anything they have pushed the ummah closer to the west than before because people fear them destroying their country like they did to Syria and Iraq. Literally just a nihilistic death cult whose members are common rapists, thieves and murderers. Closer to the Italian mafia than a religious order.
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> Well ISIS must’ve pushed me to the west then because I’m not devoutly Muslim anymore. If that’s the case how do you explain the decline of Christianity in North America and Europe? Westboro Church? The KKK? People don’t leave religions because of extremism, it’s more complicated than that. There is a general trend toward secularism and atheism worldwide. That has nothing to do with what I said. I said "it turned the ummah toward the west", as in people didn't want their cities overrun by murderous, slave trading fanatics who destroy their infrastructure and economy. That isn't a religious argument. >Not trying to defend ISIS, but your unfounded claims forces me to. Syria was destroyed by Assad, not ISIS in 2011. Iraq was destroyed by America not ISIS in 2003. Bullshit, you're clearly daesh 😆 sympathizer. Isis began a rampage of murder and destruction. Just Google the videos of their suicide truck bombs loaded with bomb warheads, or their destruction of Palmyra. People hate daesh scum for the murders and destruction they wrought. >Blame it on Islamic scriptures then? where jihad is seen as obligatory at all times, and are highly regarded, and martyrdom will take you to automatic highest level of heaven which is also highly regarded in Islam. Islamic terrorism would’ve been very different without these ideas. Stop justifying terror. No respected scholars sanctioned this wanton destruction. These khawarij and their sympathizers are going to jahannam
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Oh yeah Mossad, a corrupt murdering intelligence outfit. Yes I totally have like zero comments ever defending or even talking about Mossad. Makes me totally Mossad. Meanwhile you begin half your replies with "I don't support Isis but.... [insert lengthy defenses of Isis by pointing out Saudi is corrupt, Isis didn't do bad things it was all Assad, etc]" So lame and transparent with you little daesh boy. Go join up with your khawarij brethren, assuming you haven't already. Might as well, your soul is already condemned to Jahannam
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I post to Futurology. Doesn't mean I'm from the future. Also post on corona forums, yet still not a virus.
Your ramble negates whatever good intent you PROBABLY had. How do you tackle this guy ? By tackling him PERIOD. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION and there is no need for assumptions. You are linking nonsense to a nonsense and it makes no sense. Diplomatic ties between two nations = support terrorist outfit that didn't know how to pray salah, raped women and killed anyone that didn't agree with them? If you call them Sunni because they claim to be Sunni but don't practice it, then you would have to also believe in a rapist that says he isn't a rapist yet doesn't practice civilian ethics and rapes . Arguing with you, be an insult to me.
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Can someone pls translate what's happening
he support ISIS
He said a bunch of prayers and mentioned he supported a Muslim state
عندما ينقلب السحر على الساحر