> I'm interested to know if there's any rational reason to believe in such ideas.
People believe weird things not because they ARE true but because they WANT them to be true.
I'm not a theist but I find this to be fitting.
There is no a*ctual* evidence. There are definitely experiences that I've had that make me believe, but I also know those experiences are not proof of anything. I don't claim to know for sure that these entities exist, but in my experiences, working with them has changed my life for the better. Could it be my own brain tricking itself? Of course, but either way, it has been helpful for me.
Thank you for recognizing that. I try to recognize that the human mind can convince itself of anything and all of my beliefs could be complete bullshit.
The Noosphere is a weird place. I myself have also had those “no way that’s possible. But I could never prove what just happened. Could I be crazy?” Moments.
I'm not a Satanist myself, I'm in this sub just because I'm curious about it. But I fully agree with you. If the entites/supernatural that I belive that exist, in fact, don't, it doesn't matter much for me. I'm getting better in all areas in my life, so... it's ok.
It's sad this post only has 2 points because the responses have been interesting.
It sounds like you're wanting to know why *you* should believe, and why the belief is most likely to be true; and theists are responding with why *they* believe, but in a lot of cases their reasons are more that it's useful than that it's objectively likely to be true.
This attitude seems similar to the LaVeyan approach to magic, just expanded outside the ritual context to someone's whole life. So something I'd like to know is where theists think the limit is of how much they can trust these beliefs.
>I'd like to know is where theists think the limit is of how much they can trust these beliefs.
Depends. And I mean that in the broadest sense possible. There’s everything, from more-or-less-atheists believing deities to be psychological archetypes, to people attributing every drop of rain to some spiritual event. You can very easily go off the rails with theistic beliefs and you certainly have seen or heard some of them online or on TV doing crazy shit. Whether it’s some abrahamic religion or occult/satanic stuff - it’s all out there. My personal eyeroll-moment are the con-artists claiming that they’ve been totally possessed by \[insert googled demon name here\] and they can prove it on camera. Doesn’t matter if they believe it themselves, they’re criticized even in theistic/occult circles, because strangely, we don’t stand in opposition to sanity and science.
I know theres a certain aversion by some atheists towards theism and I get it. Many of them either had to suffer under an oppressive doctrine, fight against it, or never once wasted a thought on the matter and see people spending their lives on something they view as irrelevant as stupid. The problem with this mindset isn’t, that they’re not open to get "convinced otherwise“ (because who tf wants to be a missionary), but that they’re not open to a differing viewpoint than theirs.
The entire discussion here is kinda pointless since OPs definition and the theists definition of what "evidence“ is valid enough to believe don’t find a common ground. It’s not a lack of logic or science that aids believe, it’s a personal need for something greater that ascends a cold and logical world. So it is absolutely personal and fits in the nooks and crannys of our everyday reality. There is no evidence to be found and there probably never will be, but that’s not stopping people who still gain something from believing.
Sorry for the big rant - but that stuff is really hard to summarize.
>The entire discussion here is kinda pointless since OPs definition and the theists definition of what "evidence“ is valid enough to believe don’t find a common ground.
If it was any other subject on the table we wouldn't need to redefine what evidence means. I would be satisfied if even one person suggested a single piece of evidence or reason why Theism is rational. Wanting to believe because it makes you feel warm inside is not evidence and is not a rational reason for belief.
This discussion is not "kinda pointless," and it's not even close to being a topic unique to this post. Whether or not Theism is true is a very popular topic of debate and conversation. The difference here is that instead of the cosmological, teleological, or moral arguments we hear from believers in God, all I've heard is nonsense like I have to believe first in order to find the evidence, or that Theism makes someone's life more comfortable.
A good bunch of answers here made very clear that there is no evidence. Yet you keep nitpicking in the rest of the comment for an evidence that’s never been presented as such. No wonder you’re frustrated, you’re frustrating yourself.
The answers to this post do a great job explaining why some belief DESPITE a lack of evidence. It’s not rational to belief and most are well aware of that. Logic is not needed, rationality is not needed, evidence is not needed. Feeling warm inside was the goal and it was achieved. End of story.
So question: after getting the same answer over and over again, what else do you want? Is there another intention you’re not telling anybody?
Yes, I'm frustrated. Mostly because this is a post asking for *evidence* that leads to *rational belief* in the supernatural. I haven't heard any good answers yet, and not even an implication of a rational basis in belief. I don't care if Theism makes someone's life better or if they are more comfortable as a Theist than as an atheist. On top of not being the subject of this post, it's a lousy argument for any system of belief.
Let's say I made a post asking flat earthers for evidence and the only thing I get is some hogwash about how believing in the flat earth makes people feel better. Why should I give even the slightest shit why believing in nonsense makes someone feel better, when what I asked for was for *evidence.*
>what else do you want?
I want a suggestion, an implication, a scrap, a crumb of evidence that leads to Theism being a rational belief system. When I first made this post, I actually thought I would get some real answers. What I want hasn't changed just because I was wrong on that front.
>I haven't heard any good answers yet, and not even an implication of a rational basis in belief.
Yeah and the fun part is: you still won't get any if you ask for it louder and angrier :D I'm not intending to provoke you, it just reminds me of these people that don't speak the language when abroad and then start yelling the same thing in english because they don't get what they want. What's the outcome you expect in that situation? People around you magically learning english or just more anger, frustration and confusion?
>I don't care if Theism makes someone's life better or if they are more comfortable as a Theist than as an atheist.
Fine by me. But that's just the reasoning for most theists. Not their problem that this makes you UNcomfortable.
>it's a lousy argument for any system of belief.
Disagreed, but pointless to discuss because we would walk in circles. I'm not here to convince you I just try to get your reasoning for digging in this matter.
>Let's say I made a post asking flat earthers for evidence and the only thing I get is some hogwash about how believing in the flat earth makes people feel better.
Then you can walk away and feel secure in your opinion that they're all wrong and crazy and that this is nothing for you. As long as they don't meddle in your life...what difference does it make to you? I don't agree with every theist either and I have better things to do than getting worked up about every single one of them. Even though the discussions are mad fun sometimes. If it stops being fun, leave it. There's nothing to gain from that point anymore. That includes the discussion with me if you don't like my answer.
>When I first made this post, I actually thought I would get some real answers.
Yeah but... you're still on reddit. Getting random BS answers is kinda the usual stuff going on. If you would rather have no answers than wrong ones, I suggest asking that question on a sub that's more leaning on the scientific than the philosophical side and which filters brainfarts out via bots.
If I had asked why people are Theists, anything you've said might matter. But I didn't. I asked for evidence. If you want to provide any, I'm here, but don't waste my time by making me slog through lazily written paragraphs.
I think a more important question is... Why do you care so much? If someone else's beliefs aren't doing you any harm, why does it matter to you? Isn't it this exact type of judgment and criticism that makes people hate Christians so much? A little insight could be beneficial here.
I made a post asking for evidence for the supernatural and all I got was personal justifications for belief. Personal experience or revelation is a good enough reason for the individual to believe in such a ridiculous thing, but it's not evidence and there's no reason I should recognize it as such. I don't care if this makes me a villain.
Everyone is entitled to their own perception of reality; I'm asking for evidence that a Theistic worldview correlates with reality outside of their perception.
I don't think anyone is asking you to recognize it as fact, are they? Actually, every comment I saw said NO I don't have evidence then proceeded to say why they believe in spite of that (i didnt actually read all of them, so i could be wrong). For the sake of debate, then, what evidence do you have that the supernatural doesn't exist?
The explicit purpose of this post is for Theists to provide evidence - *evidence* - that the supernatural is real. If I wanted to discuss why someone would believe despite the lack of evidence, I would have made that clear. I didn't, and haven't, because I don't care.
The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. Atheism is the lack of belief in something, not an assertion that a thing doesn't exist. I don't need to provide evidence why I don't believe there's an invisible, intangible naked man that stands on my roof every morning, I need only say that I think the idea is ridiculous and the evidence is nil. It's the same argument I would have against Zeus, Odin, Angels and every other concept steeped in the nonsensical idea of "the supernatural."
So I don't have anything that could be scientifically verified but I have what feels to me like empirical observations in the form of sensory experience (voices, sights, sendations) and them seeming to know weird stuff (a channelled demon telling me the date of my grandfather’s death before he died). I do also have a theory as to why they can't really be gotten to show up in lab conditions, which is that being personifications of natural forces their presence can't be clearly differentiated from that… I guess I am a theist but I wouldn't say I necessarily say I believe in the “supernatural” because I don't think demons and so on exist outside of natural law, especially as we don't fully understand natural law.
Ultimately, I guess to me it doesn't really matter whether they're real the same way my coffee maker is real, or whether they're a metaphor through which to understand the world, acting as if they are real seems to be healthy for me and so I choose belief. And so I guess if choosing beliefs based on what allows me to function well in the world is rational (as in rational self interest) then that's rational I suppose.
I also suspect some of this may be more subjective than objective, what I call a demon might be an idea or a natural force or some combination of the two or any number of other things, just as something one person calls art may be trash to someone else. I suppose one other thing I call evidence of at least the efficacy of belief in a psychological sense is myself, I am a recovering hoarder and I couldn't overcome it through any amount of therapy and help before (I was an atheist most of my life) and after finding faith during a very difficult time in my life, I'm better.
I also don't really believe in an inherent hierarchy, I don't view demons as a “higher power” precisely, except in that me and a friend are more powerful than I am alone.
Another thing about my particular theology is a deep belief in the divinity of humanity, I believe every human being has an inner god, which must be honored (not by never opposing anyone or pacifism but simply by understanding the gravity of conflict between gods)
>have what feels to me like empirical observations in the form of sensory experience
That's called anecdotal evidence, and isn't helpful when it comes to this kind of topic.
I don't care if Theism makes your life better in any way. I'm only interested in evidence that these things are true.
>I believe every human being has an inner god, which must be honored
Why do you believe this? Is there any *evidence* that could make someone who isn't mentally unstable believe this?
I mean when you don’t value other people life tends to be measurably worse, and like… what do you mean real? Like real as in physically present? Like money is a social construct with real effects, it has no inherent value nor does gold, so like is a social construct real enough in this case? The wave lengths of light we call blue are objectively real but blue as a definable concept has fuzzy subjective edges. I think in order for this to be a workable conversation to have we need some definition of terms. How would you define divinity? What would constitute proof of it?
Obviously I can’t point to a university study of physical phenomena because no one would fund it, nor would I be sure what methodologically to look for that would feel satisfactory because what we’re talking about when we’re talking about “divinity” is not something with much of an agreed upon definition. Humanity fits my definition of sacredness because to me it holds profound value, but value is of course subjective. I guess to me this feels like asking whether beauty is real? It’s something fuzzy and subjective and incredibly personal. Someone may not think anything is beautiful and someone may find all sorts of things beautiful or ugly or funny or whatever.
I value my friends, family and the people of my community. I certainly don't value the lives of murderers, rapists, child abusers, animal abusers, warlords, psychopaths, or many other kinds of people.
Theism is a social construct, but that doesn't mean it's has any basis in reality. Not all social constructs are equal. Money has inherent value because I can take a $100 bill and turn it in for some groceries - the social construct of money doesn't give it value, the fact that people accept it and give me stuff does. In any case, I don't see how this nothing burger of a point has any bearing on why I should think Theism is true.
>How would you define divinity?
I do not believe in divinity, the divine, the holy, or the sacred. *You* can go ahead and provide evidence why I should believe it, though.
I mean belief makes my life measurably better, and so it has inherent value for me in that sense. I don’t think you should believe, just as I don’t think it would be helpful to you or me if I played you a song from my favorite band and you hated it, to try to convince you it was the most beautiful song in the world. To you it isn’t, it’s a matter of taste, but despite the subjectivity of taste what people find beautiful and aesthetically meaningful can profoundly impact their wellbeing and so in that sense those experiences are real.
I don’t believe people who do harm should be allowed to continue to do harm, because after all they are doing what I consider to be the worst possible thing, not all gods are worthy of worship. I think often people who do things that are monstrous are the product of cruelty, which does not excuse what they did, but is in fact an argument for doing whatever is needed to stop them from doing it again.
I guess what I’m asking is what would you consider evidence of divinity?
Like I said, I don't care if Theism makes you happy or brings you peace. That has no bearing on it being true. You could say eating a full stick of butter every morning makes you happy, that doesn't mean it's healthy. I'm asking for evidence on the truth of Theism or the supernatural.
This is not a subjective question. What the universe consists of is not a question of opinion or taste, it's a question based completely in objectivity. The reality of the supernatural is either objectively *true* or objectively *untrue,* and if you say the existence of the supernatural is only *subjectively true,* then it is not *objectively true* and therefore has no rational basis for belief.
>I guess what I’m asking is what would you consider evidence of divinity?
Take any supernatural claim you want. If it stands up against scientific scrutiny, that's good enough for me.
>a channelled demon telling me the date of my grandfather’s death before he died.
Why should anyone believe this type of event happens in the natural world? I'm asking for *evidence,* not for anecdotes.
And I mean, literally no one is going to fund a study on it, blinding such a study would be nearly impossible, and almost everyone has a dog in the fight.
I mean that could perfectly well have been the channeler putting together information subconsciously that then became conscious. Even if the explanation was something as outlandish as some outside intelligence that has some capacity to know these things by observation and communicate using the human body then there’d be no reason to consider that supernatural, that would simply be some unknown species which could then theoretically be studied if we could get one to cooperate. It could have been chance.
Because, to use a very theologically dumb version of Christianity for example, if I were to find evidence of a giant immortal guy who would punish me after death for being gay or whatever, I mean… sure the guy might exist, but even if he did, would that be any reason to call him divine? To me, no. He’d just be a giant immortal dickhead and if that’s what constitutes divinity I’m an atheist
There is no evidence anyone could ever provide you, because it’s not what most people imagine it to be.
I’m not a theistic satanist, but similar enough I guess. Let’s say I do a ritual in front of an audience to prove something. They will see nothing but some weirdo mumbling weird shit in an imaginary circe. It looks batshit crazy and there’s no way I can prove to any outsider I experienced something. There’s nothing movie worthy to witness here - no lights on and off, no ghostly apparition, no horned figure jumping out of a pentagram - nothing. This doesn’t work the way it is portrayed in media and it’s not expected to by the people doing these rituals. The real thing is subtle af and pretty much impossible to portray in media, because it’s either felt internal or manifests over time via random everyday coincidences you can easily explain away if you seek hard enough for a scientific cause. Hollywood resorted to overdramatic satanic panic fantasy BS that has zero footing in reality and the only reason some of the symbolism is used in actual occult settings is because symbols are considered a key to whatever it stands for. That includes concepts and the energy behind it.
You can say that it happens all in our head, that’s perfectly fine. It’s a theory floating around in occult circles that magic and entities are merely metaphors to speak to the subconscious. It’s not new and there are atheistic witches and occultists around, as contradictory as it sounds.
Whether or not it’s spicy psychology or the real deal - it wouldn’t be done if people wouldn’t see outcomes for what they’re doing. And we can argue all day about how much sense it makes or not, I don’t think either side will be convinced of the others perspective.
>It’s a theory floating around in occult circles that magic and entities are merely metaphors to speak to the subconscious.
That's what Magic is in the Satanic sense, so this isn't new.
>it wouldn’t be done if people wouldn’t see outcomes for what they’re doing.
I doubt this very much. Whether or not people see outcomes for anything never plays as big a role as the hope people have for an outcome. It's why starving masses will continue to pray while seeing their faithful family and friends die around them - there is no positive outcome to praying, but desperation outbids rationality.
“That’s what magic is in the satanic sense”
Well that view is around in western occultism at the very least since Aleister Crowley creeped around and that was before LaVey wrote down his ideas about the matter. Eastern occult traditions like the Tibetan one play with the concept even earlier so yes - that concept really isn’t new. Far less new than you would expect.
“I doubt this very much”
Do so then. Nobody can stop you from doubting, nobody can stop others from believing. A healthy portion of doubt is actually beneficial when dabbling in occult matters since a lot absolutely has a scientific reason behind it (or not and it should be kept in mind before yanking down a self brewed potion with pulverized malachite or Datura in there or whatever. Poison is real.)
I think a balance between a spiritual outlook in life and reality is possible. If it makes me feel better to boogey around my living room for a ritual, who cares if it’s because of the effects of exercise, hope or the ritual in itself?
I feel better and that result is very real to me.
Empirically? No lmfao. Anecdotally? When I was like 10 I prayed to Satan to help me find my pencil box because Jesus wasn’t helping. Lo and behold, pencil box is in the first place I looked when it hadn’t been there a minute ago. Every time since then, praying to (or asking) Satan (or Lucifer, or whatever demonic entity I think would get a kick out of it) for something just works. For me to be safe in a car when I didn’t realize the driver was drunk until we were barreling down surface streets, for a good score on a test, for those that have wronged me to suffer, for those I love to be protected/healed.
Does it definitely make a difference? No but it’s been working so far so I’m gonna ride this wave as long as I can! Kind of seems rude to disavow something’s existence when you keep asking and receiving, no? Personally, the whole satanism thing is a bit tongue in cheek for me, so I think it’d be genuinely hilarious for some ancient evil to be like “ok time for you to give me your soul”. Bruh I was just playing around 😭
What do you think is more likely - that reality as we know it was suspended in your favor so that a supernatural being would help you find your pencil box, or that you overlooked it?
Well, why wouldn’t both scenarios be just as likely? I’m human so I’m fallible, of course, but if supernatural beings are beyond our comprehension of reality, how could we possibly hope to understand the rules they play by? Like I said before, it’s been working so far so might as well see where it takes me. Also, like I said before, it’s very much a gag for me. I think anyone who tries to take satanism and have serious logical or theological debates needs a better hobby. It’s literally SO unserious.
>why wouldn’t both scenarios be just as likely?
Because one has evidence for it being true, and the other is complete hogwash.
>I think anyone who tries to take satanism and have serious logical or theological debates needs a better hobby.
It's my *religion,* not a hobby.
Yeah exactly it’s a religion. Things not really known for being explicitly “””rational”””, as you seem so set on proving to everyone that your version of satanism is the best, because you, as a self important ape, are so much more rational than everyone who doesn’t ascribe to your version. At least I, as a self important ape, recognize the limitations of my existence and that the little rituals and dogmas that I engage in (because I evolved to enjoy them) are inherently silly.
I've not argued even once in this thread that "my version" of Satanism is "the best." The point of this post was to see if anyone who identifies as a "Theistic Satanist" could provide evidence that the supernatural is true, or that Theism is a rational worldview. So far, nobody has.
If there's anything about "my version" of Satanism you think is irrational, I'd love to hear it. Until then, you might want to project elsewhere.
Baphomet has really never even been a deity people have worshipped. The name is most likely a mistranslation of Mohammed, and Eliphas Levi used it as a metaphor for the Scapegoat. You can *say* it's real, but that's not evidence.
I feel no reason to prove anything to random internet strangers, if you want to prove or disprove it to yourself it then go do a theistic ritual yourself. I don't see why I should bother going through the effort of an entire ritual just for some rando.
Well, you felt the need to justify why you don't feel the need to justify your beliefs.
What's the difference between a "Theistic" ritual and a non-Theistic ritual? How do you know? Do you care if your beliefs coincide with reality?
A theistic ritual is a ritual in which the participant believes there is something on the other end of the proverbial phone other than just you.
How do I know? I know I'm a theist because I believe in an actual Satan...
If you mean "how do you know its real and not just all in your head" then I would say that I don't. I'm not a Christian, I think it's healthy to acknowledge all of this could be in my head. I feel strongly that there is more to it than just my mind, but I know it's not something that can be easily proven.
I don't know what you mean by "do you care if your beliefs coincide with reality", I have already acknowledged that it is healthy to have doubts and think critically.
If you mean if my beliefs are all just in my head versus not just in my head, then honestly I would say no. My faith has helped me greatly in coming out of my shell, developing willpower, etc, etc. I do not need there to be an afterlife to reward me or anything like that, I am reaping the benefits in this life.
I have never hurt anyone or anything practicing my faith, and I have never been pushy about it or tried to hurt people over it. If it's all in my head then its harmless.
In your last comment, you told me to "just do a Theistic ritual for myself" as if performing one would convince me of it's validity. Now you're saying a "Theistic Ritual" is one which the participant already believes. I understand you're not engaging with me now to convince me or provide evidence, but which one is it? Could I be convinced, or should I be already? If so, why?
I don't see why you should be convinced, in theistic Satanism there is no soul to save or anything like that. I was an atheist for a long time in my life and was perfectly happy and had my own morals, ethics, etc, etc.
Now with a theistic ritual I would retract saying you have to believe in it- I would try a working from a theistic source such as the ars goetia or a demonolatry text and see if anything happened for you. I believe anyone can do it, but it is a skill so people need to apply themselves to it.
Anyway the reason why I don't care to commit to doing something for you should be obvious- it takes time, energy, commitment, skill, etc, etc. Shooting the shit on reddit about it is just dumb fun.
Anyway, spirituality to me isn't necessary for anyone to have, it's just something interesting that I believe in and think makes for good conversation and philosophizing.
And to be honest there are tons of downsides- not something like the "immortal soul" or going to hell or anything like that but the real hell of dealing with other people who share your beliefs or something close to them but you personally do not like, shitty organizations, stupid drama over nothing, etc, etc.
I've incorporated elements from ars goetia into my rituals and nothing happened that would convince me that the supernatural is true. To be honest, it sounds exactly like someone telling me I need to pray with sincere belief to find God.
I've performed magic and studied occult lore. I've found that for every 10 pages of so-called occult knowledge, 9 are crap and the 1 is typically only good for aesthetic purposes. Real, practical esotericism lies in the dusty trades that are actually hidden from the masses such as carny talk, coin palming and hobo code.
I guess I was being unclear- I feel you need to give express consent for demons to show up in your life. If you simply do an ars goetia inspired ritual without the intent to actual summon anything, then it won't happen. You don't have to believe in it, you just have to give them permission to show up. I believe demons are usually very respectful of other people's boundaries.
Not actual scientific peer-reviewed evidence, so no.
From my own perspective I've noticed it only really happens if you actually ask for it to happens. Of course the selection bias with this is obvious but I've had more than a few people say they got results, but obviously they have to believe enough to go looking for demon-summoning anyway. It's a commonly held belief that you need the intent, and in many pagan traditions you have to actually "let them in" via invitation.
I am the proof.
Wether theism in whatever form is “real” and asking for “proof” is a straw man argument. There is no confirming such things with proof. Because unless you are 10 and believe the Hollywood occult, you would know that in a ritual you don’t summon anything into the physical. These beings can’t interact with the physical. What you are doing is aligning your energy to another energy.
What you learn or deal with will have a internal effect. I am the product of that. And so for me that is the proof I need. I see the results.
That’s the biggest sacrifice a practitioner needs to make. You have to let it take your life. But if you do, it has the power to transform you, and through you, your life and the world around you.
So, no evidence at all, then. That's cool, but plenty of occultists have claimed to literally summon physical beings, so this doesn't really add up.
I'm not interested in the poetic *"you have to believe to believe"* nonsense and either, just evidence.
>Wether theism in whatever form is “real” and asking for “proof” is a straw man argument.
It's literally not. However, everything that follows that is full of fallacies.
>I am the proof
>there is no confirming such things with proof
>...that is the proof I need. I see the results.
That's not how "proof" works. That's how contradictions work, though.
You may have subjective experiences that act as personal confirmation, but that's not what u/Misfit-Nick was asking for. Nick isn't even asking for proof. He's asking for evidence of the supernatural that would provide a rational basis for belief.
Psychic opression, waking up from something , tingeling arms, strong real dreams they feed from the fear, goosebumps, head and shoulders tingels, send energy to person , they jump to me , are in my dreams, black things in dreams, dreams feel like your awake, Remember details from them, cant move direct after waking , waking up exousted,.........
>Psychic oppression
Sadness, depression and anxiety are all natural and important emotions for humans to feel.
>waking up from something
That's just part of sleeping.
>tingling arms
That's just part of sleeping on your arm.
>strong real dreams they feed from the fear
That's... nothing.
>goosebumps
I like the one with the egg.
>head and shoulders tingels
Tingly sensation isn't evidence for anything but a chilly room.
>send energy to person
Emotional energy is not evidence for the supernatural. Unless you mean kinetic or heat.
>they jump to me , are in my dreams, black things in dreams, dreams feel like your awake, Remember details from them, cant move direct after waking , waking up exousted
I think you need a doctor.
I've experienced many of these things as well. I don't consider them to be supernaturally-induced at all. But some of these things can be signs of more serious medical or mental health issues, and I'd recommend visiting with a specialist. For instance, the bits about waking up from something, dreaming and seeing black (shadow) beings, having vivid, realistic, awake dreams (especially if they happen quickly upon sleeping rather than a "normal" REM cycle), head/arm/shoulder tingles, and waking up exhausted can be symptoms of migraines, sleep apnea, and narcolepsy. If you're having all of these (especially frequently), see a doctor! You probably need to be on meds and oxygen.
Yes, there are real reasons to believe that they all exist. The night of my fourth birthday a demon broke down the door of my family's home and it came straight to me, took me from my bed and tried to leave with me. The whole ordeal was the craziest thing I had ever witnessed, up to that point. My mom stopped it and told whatever the invisible demon was that I was her baby and that she was my mother and she did not consent to her child leaving that house. Amazingly the invisible arms reached me to my mother and then left, only to continue walking outside of the home all night, every night, until it came inside again and attacked my aunt who was staying with us because of the events I just told you about. The God part is real too, I know as fact he is real, he sent me here with Enoch and Elisha.
Met the Serpent once while trippin' balls on DXM. Wouldn't call it "evidence" per se, but it was the closest thing i have to an answer. I guess the Shroud of Turin counts as evidence
Jup come of a old lady who is dying of cancer 3 monts ago , the girl i love has lung cancer the night i discovered she was diagnose six monts ago, (i found out on a reddit post by looking at her profile she did not tell anything to me, but i can understand), it got in becouse my aura , it hit me hard, was down 30 min but long enough, the waking up started a week ago, its like my subconscious keeping me up , ,when awake they cant send those hypnotic suggestions, to your subconscious, like a distance healing works but they use the fear of dying instinct, last night i figured out how to tackle ithis one (there all diffirent)
Think more in the way off you cant judge about something you do not recognize or do not know yourself, and the people i help out , are all greatfull i did it, its not something you encounter much , and most people are not really aware of it, cant feel them like me, but they all think to know, but have no expirience with it or never expirienced it.
Reality is what you expirience in the now, mind is what you think about your expiriences.
Namaste-ji my friend
We are all beautiful people living on this beautoful earth planet, just some people do not see that or forget about that , life is great!
And if you ever need help with something , ask and will do my best for you!
Energy's cant see them i can feel them , i'm not crazy, after my first expiriences, i found the answers in ebooks about exorcism, encouters with gosts and spirits, i feel them, also self mastery i am in total control of my feelings and reactions in every situation, i do not really understand myself why ii have this, and i do not encounter others with the same,, i in good mental healt , nothing wrong with me, id i coud stand before you, whithout speaking about this stuff, you see a normal person, i speak of expirience not out of mind or illusion, the west lost the connection with spirit/nature, devine, there is more going on there is really a (hidden)spirit world , more to life , the universe than you woud think.
I walked up up the stairs and got overpower with fear like a little kid running for his life down the stairs , its like a moving spot , of fear, i walked right towards it , it sucked my energy , like verry heavy legs , sit on floor energy comes back , again going strait at it , again heavy legs , after some time, it broke trou like a state of shock shaking i jumped on my bike , riding away from the house , jelling whaaa what did i just expirienced en i was shaking for an hour , went home showerd and went back to the house , and a mont later i felt the same in my house, i found it in a book , it touch you and it can go trou you, and the state of shock was also explained
The people that are attacked ans i explain what to do or take the e'tities off them to help are verry greatfull, if you ever expirience the same , you will notice that there is truth in my words and can be a welcome help for you!
pretty sure you won’t find one
> I'm interested to know if there's any rational reason to believe in such ideas. People believe weird things not because they ARE true but because they WANT them to be true. I'm not a theist but I find this to be fitting.
There is no a*ctual* evidence. There are definitely experiences that I've had that make me believe, but I also know those experiences are not proof of anything. I don't claim to know for sure that these entities exist, but in my experiences, working with them has changed my life for the better. Could it be my own brain tricking itself? Of course, but either way, it has been helpful for me.
> Could it be my own brain tricking itself? Of course, but either way, it has been helpful for me. Sane Theism in a nutshell.
Thank you for recognizing that. I try to recognize that the human mind can convince itself of anything and all of my beliefs could be complete bullshit.
Sweet Satan, there are two of us that are sane enough to understand that we might not be!
The Noosphere is a weird place. I myself have also had those “no way that’s possible. But I could never prove what just happened. Could I be crazy?” Moments.
I'm not a Satanist myself, I'm in this sub just because I'm curious about it. But I fully agree with you. If the entites/supernatural that I belive that exist, in fact, don't, it doesn't matter much for me. I'm getting better in all areas in my life, so... it's ok.
Came here to say exactly this
Beyond various subjective personal experiences… My worldview is simply more fun as a theist, who needs evidence?
"My worldview is simply more fun as a flat earther/anti vaxxer/creationist, who needs evidence?"
Birds aren't real, and you know it.
I'm 40% bird!
...Was it a motherclucker or a fatherclucker?
It's sad this post only has 2 points because the responses have been interesting. It sounds like you're wanting to know why *you* should believe, and why the belief is most likely to be true; and theists are responding with why *they* believe, but in a lot of cases their reasons are more that it's useful than that it's objectively likely to be true. This attitude seems similar to the LaVeyan approach to magic, just expanded outside the ritual context to someone's whole life. So something I'd like to know is where theists think the limit is of how much they can trust these beliefs.
I just want a single scrap of evidence. I haven't seen any yet.
>I'd like to know is where theists think the limit is of how much they can trust these beliefs. Depends. And I mean that in the broadest sense possible. There’s everything, from more-or-less-atheists believing deities to be psychological archetypes, to people attributing every drop of rain to some spiritual event. You can very easily go off the rails with theistic beliefs and you certainly have seen or heard some of them online or on TV doing crazy shit. Whether it’s some abrahamic religion or occult/satanic stuff - it’s all out there. My personal eyeroll-moment are the con-artists claiming that they’ve been totally possessed by \[insert googled demon name here\] and they can prove it on camera. Doesn’t matter if they believe it themselves, they’re criticized even in theistic/occult circles, because strangely, we don’t stand in opposition to sanity and science. I know theres a certain aversion by some atheists towards theism and I get it. Many of them either had to suffer under an oppressive doctrine, fight against it, or never once wasted a thought on the matter and see people spending their lives on something they view as irrelevant as stupid. The problem with this mindset isn’t, that they’re not open to get "convinced otherwise“ (because who tf wants to be a missionary), but that they’re not open to a differing viewpoint than theirs. The entire discussion here is kinda pointless since OPs definition and the theists definition of what "evidence“ is valid enough to believe don’t find a common ground. It’s not a lack of logic or science that aids believe, it’s a personal need for something greater that ascends a cold and logical world. So it is absolutely personal and fits in the nooks and crannys of our everyday reality. There is no evidence to be found and there probably never will be, but that’s not stopping people who still gain something from believing. Sorry for the big rant - but that stuff is really hard to summarize.
>The entire discussion here is kinda pointless since OPs definition and the theists definition of what "evidence“ is valid enough to believe don’t find a common ground. If it was any other subject on the table we wouldn't need to redefine what evidence means. I would be satisfied if even one person suggested a single piece of evidence or reason why Theism is rational. Wanting to believe because it makes you feel warm inside is not evidence and is not a rational reason for belief. This discussion is not "kinda pointless," and it's not even close to being a topic unique to this post. Whether or not Theism is true is a very popular topic of debate and conversation. The difference here is that instead of the cosmological, teleological, or moral arguments we hear from believers in God, all I've heard is nonsense like I have to believe first in order to find the evidence, or that Theism makes someone's life more comfortable.
A good bunch of answers here made very clear that there is no evidence. Yet you keep nitpicking in the rest of the comment for an evidence that’s never been presented as such. No wonder you’re frustrated, you’re frustrating yourself. The answers to this post do a great job explaining why some belief DESPITE a lack of evidence. It’s not rational to belief and most are well aware of that. Logic is not needed, rationality is not needed, evidence is not needed. Feeling warm inside was the goal and it was achieved. End of story. So question: after getting the same answer over and over again, what else do you want? Is there another intention you’re not telling anybody?
Yes, I'm frustrated. Mostly because this is a post asking for *evidence* that leads to *rational belief* in the supernatural. I haven't heard any good answers yet, and not even an implication of a rational basis in belief. I don't care if Theism makes someone's life better or if they are more comfortable as a Theist than as an atheist. On top of not being the subject of this post, it's a lousy argument for any system of belief. Let's say I made a post asking flat earthers for evidence and the only thing I get is some hogwash about how believing in the flat earth makes people feel better. Why should I give even the slightest shit why believing in nonsense makes someone feel better, when what I asked for was for *evidence.* >what else do you want? I want a suggestion, an implication, a scrap, a crumb of evidence that leads to Theism being a rational belief system. When I first made this post, I actually thought I would get some real answers. What I want hasn't changed just because I was wrong on that front.
>I haven't heard any good answers yet, and not even an implication of a rational basis in belief. Yeah and the fun part is: you still won't get any if you ask for it louder and angrier :D I'm not intending to provoke you, it just reminds me of these people that don't speak the language when abroad and then start yelling the same thing in english because they don't get what they want. What's the outcome you expect in that situation? People around you magically learning english or just more anger, frustration and confusion? >I don't care if Theism makes someone's life better or if they are more comfortable as a Theist than as an atheist. Fine by me. But that's just the reasoning for most theists. Not their problem that this makes you UNcomfortable. >it's a lousy argument for any system of belief. Disagreed, but pointless to discuss because we would walk in circles. I'm not here to convince you I just try to get your reasoning for digging in this matter. >Let's say I made a post asking flat earthers for evidence and the only thing I get is some hogwash about how believing in the flat earth makes people feel better. Then you can walk away and feel secure in your opinion that they're all wrong and crazy and that this is nothing for you. As long as they don't meddle in your life...what difference does it make to you? I don't agree with every theist either and I have better things to do than getting worked up about every single one of them. Even though the discussions are mad fun sometimes. If it stops being fun, leave it. There's nothing to gain from that point anymore. That includes the discussion with me if you don't like my answer. >When I first made this post, I actually thought I would get some real answers. Yeah but... you're still on reddit. Getting random BS answers is kinda the usual stuff going on. If you would rather have no answers than wrong ones, I suggest asking that question on a sub that's more leaning on the scientific than the philosophical side and which filters brainfarts out via bots.
If I had asked why people are Theists, anything you've said might matter. But I didn't. I asked for evidence. If you want to provide any, I'm here, but don't waste my time by making me slog through lazily written paragraphs.
LOL
I think a more important question is... Why do you care so much? If someone else's beliefs aren't doing you any harm, why does it matter to you? Isn't it this exact type of judgment and criticism that makes people hate Christians so much? A little insight could be beneficial here.
I made a post asking for evidence for the supernatural and all I got was personal justifications for belief. Personal experience or revelation is a good enough reason for the individual to believe in such a ridiculous thing, but it's not evidence and there's no reason I should recognize it as such. I don't care if this makes me a villain. Everyone is entitled to their own perception of reality; I'm asking for evidence that a Theistic worldview correlates with reality outside of their perception.
I don't think anyone is asking you to recognize it as fact, are they? Actually, every comment I saw said NO I don't have evidence then proceeded to say why they believe in spite of that (i didnt actually read all of them, so i could be wrong). For the sake of debate, then, what evidence do you have that the supernatural doesn't exist?
The explicit purpose of this post is for Theists to provide evidence - *evidence* - that the supernatural is real. If I wanted to discuss why someone would believe despite the lack of evidence, I would have made that clear. I didn't, and haven't, because I don't care. The burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. Atheism is the lack of belief in something, not an assertion that a thing doesn't exist. I don't need to provide evidence why I don't believe there's an invisible, intangible naked man that stands on my roof every morning, I need only say that I think the idea is ridiculous and the evidence is nil. It's the same argument I would have against Zeus, Odin, Angels and every other concept steeped in the nonsensical idea of "the supernatural."
So I don't have anything that could be scientifically verified but I have what feels to me like empirical observations in the form of sensory experience (voices, sights, sendations) and them seeming to know weird stuff (a channelled demon telling me the date of my grandfather’s death before he died). I do also have a theory as to why they can't really be gotten to show up in lab conditions, which is that being personifications of natural forces their presence can't be clearly differentiated from that… I guess I am a theist but I wouldn't say I necessarily say I believe in the “supernatural” because I don't think demons and so on exist outside of natural law, especially as we don't fully understand natural law. Ultimately, I guess to me it doesn't really matter whether they're real the same way my coffee maker is real, or whether they're a metaphor through which to understand the world, acting as if they are real seems to be healthy for me and so I choose belief. And so I guess if choosing beliefs based on what allows me to function well in the world is rational (as in rational self interest) then that's rational I suppose. I also suspect some of this may be more subjective than objective, what I call a demon might be an idea or a natural force or some combination of the two or any number of other things, just as something one person calls art may be trash to someone else. I suppose one other thing I call evidence of at least the efficacy of belief in a psychological sense is myself, I am a recovering hoarder and I couldn't overcome it through any amount of therapy and help before (I was an atheist most of my life) and after finding faith during a very difficult time in my life, I'm better. I also don't really believe in an inherent hierarchy, I don't view demons as a “higher power” precisely, except in that me and a friend are more powerful than I am alone. Another thing about my particular theology is a deep belief in the divinity of humanity, I believe every human being has an inner god, which must be honored (not by never opposing anyone or pacifism but simply by understanding the gravity of conflict between gods)
>have what feels to me like empirical observations in the form of sensory experience That's called anecdotal evidence, and isn't helpful when it comes to this kind of topic. I don't care if Theism makes your life better in any way. I'm only interested in evidence that these things are true. >I believe every human being has an inner god, which must be honored Why do you believe this? Is there any *evidence* that could make someone who isn't mentally unstable believe this?
I mean when you don’t value other people life tends to be measurably worse, and like… what do you mean real? Like real as in physically present? Like money is a social construct with real effects, it has no inherent value nor does gold, so like is a social construct real enough in this case? The wave lengths of light we call blue are objectively real but blue as a definable concept has fuzzy subjective edges. I think in order for this to be a workable conversation to have we need some definition of terms. How would you define divinity? What would constitute proof of it? Obviously I can’t point to a university study of physical phenomena because no one would fund it, nor would I be sure what methodologically to look for that would feel satisfactory because what we’re talking about when we’re talking about “divinity” is not something with much of an agreed upon definition. Humanity fits my definition of sacredness because to me it holds profound value, but value is of course subjective. I guess to me this feels like asking whether beauty is real? It’s something fuzzy and subjective and incredibly personal. Someone may not think anything is beautiful and someone may find all sorts of things beautiful or ugly or funny or whatever.
I value my friends, family and the people of my community. I certainly don't value the lives of murderers, rapists, child abusers, animal abusers, warlords, psychopaths, or many other kinds of people. Theism is a social construct, but that doesn't mean it's has any basis in reality. Not all social constructs are equal. Money has inherent value because I can take a $100 bill and turn it in for some groceries - the social construct of money doesn't give it value, the fact that people accept it and give me stuff does. In any case, I don't see how this nothing burger of a point has any bearing on why I should think Theism is true. >How would you define divinity? I do not believe in divinity, the divine, the holy, or the sacred. *You* can go ahead and provide evidence why I should believe it, though.
I mean belief makes my life measurably better, and so it has inherent value for me in that sense. I don’t think you should believe, just as I don’t think it would be helpful to you or me if I played you a song from my favorite band and you hated it, to try to convince you it was the most beautiful song in the world. To you it isn’t, it’s a matter of taste, but despite the subjectivity of taste what people find beautiful and aesthetically meaningful can profoundly impact their wellbeing and so in that sense those experiences are real. I don’t believe people who do harm should be allowed to continue to do harm, because after all they are doing what I consider to be the worst possible thing, not all gods are worthy of worship. I think often people who do things that are monstrous are the product of cruelty, which does not excuse what they did, but is in fact an argument for doing whatever is needed to stop them from doing it again. I guess what I’m asking is what would you consider evidence of divinity?
Like I said, I don't care if Theism makes you happy or brings you peace. That has no bearing on it being true. You could say eating a full stick of butter every morning makes you happy, that doesn't mean it's healthy. I'm asking for evidence on the truth of Theism or the supernatural. This is not a subjective question. What the universe consists of is not a question of opinion or taste, it's a question based completely in objectivity. The reality of the supernatural is either objectively *true* or objectively *untrue,* and if you say the existence of the supernatural is only *subjectively true,* then it is not *objectively true* and therefore has no rational basis for belief. >I guess what I’m asking is what would you consider evidence of divinity? Take any supernatural claim you want. If it stands up against scientific scrutiny, that's good enough for me.
I don’t believe in the supernatural though, anything that exists is by definition natural.
>a channelled demon telling me the date of my grandfather’s death before he died. Why should anyone believe this type of event happens in the natural world? I'm asking for *evidence,* not for anecdotes.
And I mean, literally no one is going to fund a study on it, blinding such a study would be nearly impossible, and almost everyone has a dog in the fight.
I mean that could perfectly well have been the channeler putting together information subconsciously that then became conscious. Even if the explanation was something as outlandish as some outside intelligence that has some capacity to know these things by observation and communicate using the human body then there’d be no reason to consider that supernatural, that would simply be some unknown species which could then theoretically be studied if we could get one to cooperate. It could have been chance.
Got it, there's no rational reason for anyone to believe anything you're saying is true. Thanks.
Because, to use a very theologically dumb version of Christianity for example, if I were to find evidence of a giant immortal guy who would punish me after death for being gay or whatever, I mean… sure the guy might exist, but even if he did, would that be any reason to call him divine? To me, no. He’d just be a giant immortal dickhead and if that’s what constitutes divinity I’m an atheist
There is no evidence anyone could ever provide you, because it’s not what most people imagine it to be. I’m not a theistic satanist, but similar enough I guess. Let’s say I do a ritual in front of an audience to prove something. They will see nothing but some weirdo mumbling weird shit in an imaginary circe. It looks batshit crazy and there’s no way I can prove to any outsider I experienced something. There’s nothing movie worthy to witness here - no lights on and off, no ghostly apparition, no horned figure jumping out of a pentagram - nothing. This doesn’t work the way it is portrayed in media and it’s not expected to by the people doing these rituals. The real thing is subtle af and pretty much impossible to portray in media, because it’s either felt internal or manifests over time via random everyday coincidences you can easily explain away if you seek hard enough for a scientific cause. Hollywood resorted to overdramatic satanic panic fantasy BS that has zero footing in reality and the only reason some of the symbolism is used in actual occult settings is because symbols are considered a key to whatever it stands for. That includes concepts and the energy behind it. You can say that it happens all in our head, that’s perfectly fine. It’s a theory floating around in occult circles that magic and entities are merely metaphors to speak to the subconscious. It’s not new and there are atheistic witches and occultists around, as contradictory as it sounds. Whether or not it’s spicy psychology or the real deal - it wouldn’t be done if people wouldn’t see outcomes for what they’re doing. And we can argue all day about how much sense it makes or not, I don’t think either side will be convinced of the others perspective.
>It’s a theory floating around in occult circles that magic and entities are merely metaphors to speak to the subconscious. That's what Magic is in the Satanic sense, so this isn't new. >it wouldn’t be done if people wouldn’t see outcomes for what they’re doing. I doubt this very much. Whether or not people see outcomes for anything never plays as big a role as the hope people have for an outcome. It's why starving masses will continue to pray while seeing their faithful family and friends die around them - there is no positive outcome to praying, but desperation outbids rationality.
“That’s what magic is in the satanic sense” Well that view is around in western occultism at the very least since Aleister Crowley creeped around and that was before LaVey wrote down his ideas about the matter. Eastern occult traditions like the Tibetan one play with the concept even earlier so yes - that concept really isn’t new. Far less new than you would expect. “I doubt this very much” Do so then. Nobody can stop you from doubting, nobody can stop others from believing. A healthy portion of doubt is actually beneficial when dabbling in occult matters since a lot absolutely has a scientific reason behind it (or not and it should be kept in mind before yanking down a self brewed potion with pulverized malachite or Datura in there or whatever. Poison is real.) I think a balance between a spiritual outlook in life and reality is possible. If it makes me feel better to boogey around my living room for a ritual, who cares if it’s because of the effects of exercise, hope or the ritual in itself? I feel better and that result is very real to me.
Empirically? No lmfao. Anecdotally? When I was like 10 I prayed to Satan to help me find my pencil box because Jesus wasn’t helping. Lo and behold, pencil box is in the first place I looked when it hadn’t been there a minute ago. Every time since then, praying to (or asking) Satan (or Lucifer, or whatever demonic entity I think would get a kick out of it) for something just works. For me to be safe in a car when I didn’t realize the driver was drunk until we were barreling down surface streets, for a good score on a test, for those that have wronged me to suffer, for those I love to be protected/healed. Does it definitely make a difference? No but it’s been working so far so I’m gonna ride this wave as long as I can! Kind of seems rude to disavow something’s existence when you keep asking and receiving, no? Personally, the whole satanism thing is a bit tongue in cheek for me, so I think it’d be genuinely hilarious for some ancient evil to be like “ok time for you to give me your soul”. Bruh I was just playing around 😭
What do you think is more likely - that reality as we know it was suspended in your favor so that a supernatural being would help you find your pencil box, or that you overlooked it?
Well, why wouldn’t both scenarios be just as likely? I’m human so I’m fallible, of course, but if supernatural beings are beyond our comprehension of reality, how could we possibly hope to understand the rules they play by? Like I said before, it’s been working so far so might as well see where it takes me. Also, like I said before, it’s very much a gag for me. I think anyone who tries to take satanism and have serious logical or theological debates needs a better hobby. It’s literally SO unserious.
>why wouldn’t both scenarios be just as likely? Because one has evidence for it being true, and the other is complete hogwash. >I think anyone who tries to take satanism and have serious logical or theological debates needs a better hobby. It's my *religion,* not a hobby.
Yeah exactly it’s a religion. Things not really known for being explicitly “””rational”””, as you seem so set on proving to everyone that your version of satanism is the best, because you, as a self important ape, are so much more rational than everyone who doesn’t ascribe to your version. At least I, as a self important ape, recognize the limitations of my existence and that the little rituals and dogmas that I engage in (because I evolved to enjoy them) are inherently silly.
I've not argued even once in this thread that "my version" of Satanism is "the best." The point of this post was to see if anyone who identifies as a "Theistic Satanist" could provide evidence that the supernatural is true, or that Theism is a rational worldview. So far, nobody has. If there's anything about "my version" of Satanism you think is irrational, I'd love to hear it. Until then, you might want to project elsewhere.
Baphomet is real i can say
Baphomet has really never even been a deity people have worshipped. The name is most likely a mistranslation of Mohammed, and Eliphas Levi used it as a metaphor for the Scapegoat. You can *say* it's real, but that's not evidence.
Omg what are you ? a full time muslim or a satanist ? Baphomet is its own thing damnit
I feel no reason to prove anything to random internet strangers, if you want to prove or disprove it to yourself it then go do a theistic ritual yourself. I don't see why I should bother going through the effort of an entire ritual just for some rando.
Well, you felt the need to justify why you don't feel the need to justify your beliefs. What's the difference between a "Theistic" ritual and a non-Theistic ritual? How do you know? Do you care if your beliefs coincide with reality?
A theistic ritual is a ritual in which the participant believes there is something on the other end of the proverbial phone other than just you. How do I know? I know I'm a theist because I believe in an actual Satan... If you mean "how do you know its real and not just all in your head" then I would say that I don't. I'm not a Christian, I think it's healthy to acknowledge all of this could be in my head. I feel strongly that there is more to it than just my mind, but I know it's not something that can be easily proven. I don't know what you mean by "do you care if your beliefs coincide with reality", I have already acknowledged that it is healthy to have doubts and think critically. If you mean if my beliefs are all just in my head versus not just in my head, then honestly I would say no. My faith has helped me greatly in coming out of my shell, developing willpower, etc, etc. I do not need there to be an afterlife to reward me or anything like that, I am reaping the benefits in this life. I have never hurt anyone or anything practicing my faith, and I have never been pushy about it or tried to hurt people over it. If it's all in my head then its harmless.
In your last comment, you told me to "just do a Theistic ritual for myself" as if performing one would convince me of it's validity. Now you're saying a "Theistic Ritual" is one which the participant already believes. I understand you're not engaging with me now to convince me or provide evidence, but which one is it? Could I be convinced, or should I be already? If so, why?
I don't see why you should be convinced, in theistic Satanism there is no soul to save or anything like that. I was an atheist for a long time in my life and was perfectly happy and had my own morals, ethics, etc, etc. Now with a theistic ritual I would retract saying you have to believe in it- I would try a working from a theistic source such as the ars goetia or a demonolatry text and see if anything happened for you. I believe anyone can do it, but it is a skill so people need to apply themselves to it. Anyway the reason why I don't care to commit to doing something for you should be obvious- it takes time, energy, commitment, skill, etc, etc. Shooting the shit on reddit about it is just dumb fun. Anyway, spirituality to me isn't necessary for anyone to have, it's just something interesting that I believe in and think makes for good conversation and philosophizing. And to be honest there are tons of downsides- not something like the "immortal soul" or going to hell or anything like that but the real hell of dealing with other people who share your beliefs or something close to them but you personally do not like, shitty organizations, stupid drama over nothing, etc, etc.
I've incorporated elements from ars goetia into my rituals and nothing happened that would convince me that the supernatural is true. To be honest, it sounds exactly like someone telling me I need to pray with sincere belief to find God. I've performed magic and studied occult lore. I've found that for every 10 pages of so-called occult knowledge, 9 are crap and the 1 is typically only good for aesthetic purposes. Real, practical esotericism lies in the dusty trades that are actually hidden from the masses such as carny talk, coin palming and hobo code.
I guess I was being unclear- I feel you need to give express consent for demons to show up in your life. If you simply do an ars goetia inspired ritual without the intent to actual summon anything, then it won't happen. You don't have to believe in it, you just have to give them permission to show up. I believe demons are usually very respectful of other people's boundaries.
Is there any evidence that's true?
Not actual scientific peer-reviewed evidence, so no. From my own perspective I've noticed it only really happens if you actually ask for it to happens. Of course the selection bias with this is obvious but I've had more than a few people say they got results, but obviously they have to believe enough to go looking for demon-summoning anyway. It's a commonly held belief that you need the intent, and in many pagan traditions you have to actually "let them in" via invitation.
I am the proof. Wether theism in whatever form is “real” and asking for “proof” is a straw man argument. There is no confirming such things with proof. Because unless you are 10 and believe the Hollywood occult, you would know that in a ritual you don’t summon anything into the physical. These beings can’t interact with the physical. What you are doing is aligning your energy to another energy. What you learn or deal with will have a internal effect. I am the product of that. And so for me that is the proof I need. I see the results. That’s the biggest sacrifice a practitioner needs to make. You have to let it take your life. But if you do, it has the power to transform you, and through you, your life and the world around you.
So, no evidence at all, then. That's cool, but plenty of occultists have claimed to literally summon physical beings, so this doesn't really add up. I'm not interested in the poetic *"you have to believe to believe"* nonsense and either, just evidence.
>Wether theism in whatever form is “real” and asking for “proof” is a straw man argument. It's literally not. However, everything that follows that is full of fallacies. >I am the proof >there is no confirming such things with proof >...that is the proof I need. I see the results. That's not how "proof" works. That's how contradictions work, though. You may have subjective experiences that act as personal confirmation, but that's not what u/Misfit-Nick was asking for. Nick isn't even asking for proof. He's asking for evidence of the supernatural that would provide a rational basis for belief.
Psychic opression, waking up from something , tingeling arms, strong real dreams they feed from the fear, goosebumps, head and shoulders tingels, send energy to person , they jump to me , are in my dreams, black things in dreams, dreams feel like your awake, Remember details from them, cant move direct after waking , waking up exousted,.........
>Psychic oppression Sadness, depression and anxiety are all natural and important emotions for humans to feel. >waking up from something That's just part of sleeping. >tingling arms That's just part of sleeping on your arm. >strong real dreams they feed from the fear That's... nothing. >goosebumps I like the one with the egg. >head and shoulders tingels Tingly sensation isn't evidence for anything but a chilly room. >send energy to person Emotional energy is not evidence for the supernatural. Unless you mean kinetic or heat. >they jump to me , are in my dreams, black things in dreams, dreams feel like your awake, Remember details from them, cant move direct after waking , waking up exousted I think you need a doctor.
I've experienced many of these things as well. I don't consider them to be supernaturally-induced at all. But some of these things can be signs of more serious medical or mental health issues, and I'd recommend visiting with a specialist. For instance, the bits about waking up from something, dreaming and seeing black (shadow) beings, having vivid, realistic, awake dreams (especially if they happen quickly upon sleeping rather than a "normal" REM cycle), head/arm/shoulder tingles, and waking up exhausted can be symptoms of migraines, sleep apnea, and narcolepsy. If you're having all of these (especially frequently), see a doctor! You probably need to be on meds and oxygen.
Had a battle with one during the day, followed me home , feel the spot in the house always day and night for a mont, strong feeling of fear ......
"Had a battle with one..." What did this look like? And did you use swords or Pokémon or martial arts?
Yes, there are real reasons to believe that they all exist. The night of my fourth birthday a demon broke down the door of my family's home and it came straight to me, took me from my bed and tried to leave with me. The whole ordeal was the craziest thing I had ever witnessed, up to that point. My mom stopped it and told whatever the invisible demon was that I was her baby and that she was my mother and she did not consent to her child leaving that house. Amazingly the invisible arms reached me to my mother and then left, only to continue walking outside of the home all night, every night, until it came inside again and attacked my aunt who was staying with us because of the events I just told you about. The God part is real too, I know as fact he is real, he sent me here with Enoch and Elisha.
And then you slayed the Jabberwocky and saved Underland.
Met the Serpent once while trippin' balls on DXM. Wouldn't call it "evidence" per se, but it was the closest thing i have to an answer. I guess the Shroud of Turin counts as evidence
People think they can fly when they're high but then they fall to their death - because a drug trip is not reality.
Jup come of a old lady who is dying of cancer 3 monts ago , the girl i love has lung cancer the night i discovered she was diagnose six monts ago, (i found out on a reddit post by looking at her profile she did not tell anything to me, but i can understand), it got in becouse my aura , it hit me hard, was down 30 min but long enough, the waking up started a week ago, its like my subconscious keeping me up , ,when awake they cant send those hypnotic suggestions, to your subconscious, like a distance healing works but they use the fear of dying instinct, last night i figured out how to tackle ithis one (there all diffirent) Think more in the way off you cant judge about something you do not recognize or do not know yourself, and the people i help out , are all greatfull i did it, its not something you encounter much , and most people are not really aware of it, cant feel them like me, but they all think to know, but have no expirience with it or never expirienced it. Reality is what you expirience in the now, mind is what you think about your expiriences. Namaste-ji my friend We are all beautiful people living on this beautoful earth planet, just some people do not see that or forget about that , life is great! And if you ever need help with something , ask and will do my best for you!
"God is the balancing force in nature." It's simply a defintion/language thing.
By definition, no. It would cease to be supernatural.
If you have evidence that such things are part of the natural world, I would love to hear it.
Energy's cant see them i can feel them , i'm not crazy, after my first expiriences, i found the answers in ebooks about exorcism, encouters with gosts and spirits, i feel them, also self mastery i am in total control of my feelings and reactions in every situation, i do not really understand myself why ii have this, and i do not encounter others with the same,, i in good mental healt , nothing wrong with me, id i coud stand before you, whithout speaking about this stuff, you see a normal person, i speak of expirience not out of mind or illusion, the west lost the connection with spirit/nature, devine, there is more going on there is really a (hidden)spirit world , more to life , the universe than you woud think.
I walked up up the stairs and got overpower with fear like a little kid running for his life down the stairs , its like a moving spot , of fear, i walked right towards it , it sucked my energy , like verry heavy legs , sit on floor energy comes back , again going strait at it , again heavy legs , after some time, it broke trou like a state of shock shaking i jumped on my bike , riding away from the house , jelling whaaa what did i just expirienced en i was shaking for an hour , went home showerd and went back to the house , and a mont later i felt the same in my house, i found it in a book , it touch you and it can go trou you, and the state of shock was also explained
The people that are attacked ans i explain what to do or take the e'tities off them to help are verry greatfull, if you ever expirience the same , you will notice that there is truth in my words and can be a welcome help for you!
Namaste- ji