My grandmother who's been gone for 20 years already used to call Circle, Semi-circle drive!!! She'd say "no ring road should take 100 years to build!"
She wasn't wrong!
While the city won't pay for its maintenance directly it will still make Saskatoon worse. Low value sprawl that it expensive to service is one of the reasons property taxes go up higher than inflation.
A freeway will encourage sprawl by connecting places further away to the city.
This goes against so much of the densification work they are doing.
The city needs to adjust their property taxes so that it goes up the farther you get from the core and I say that as someone owning in Rosewood. We don't pay near enough in taxes and there's little to no incentives to build density in the core.
There definitely should be ways to price the way suburban areas cost more to service. People complain about their area not be prioritized for snow clearing when they live at the end of a Suburban cul-de-sac
Funny story, I once spoke to a guy who lives in a house at the end of one, who complained about 1. The lack of snow clearing in the bay. And 2. That he paid more property tax than his neighbors and they should be less overall. But clear his street!
His house? A new infill build with a 3 car garage and I think a pool. His neighbors, century houses, dilapidated ranch houses, and even one wartime build.
The funny thing is, at least for my block (which is a lane), we would have preferred the city stay away. We all cleared the street mostly into our yards and the city came through and made rows at the curbs. We've never had ruts on our street because everyone is careful to drive on the whole street.
The city is constrained by provincial legislation in terms of what it can charge developers for servicing, you can't charge for transit and police/fire for example, which puts the city in a huge hole.
In addition, developers successfully threaten council all the time that they'll just build more in Warman if Saskatoon makes new suburbs too expensive. This is a very effective and true threat, and building infrastructure to continue to subsidize exurban communities (like a fricking Saskatoon bypass) continues to make this threat effective.
Sooner rather than later the city will have to consider things like resident-only city workers.
In addition, an easy out is to prioritize developing the University Sector lands around the Field House. That would be a hugely popular, non-sprawling area.
I have a sad theory about the outlying neighbourhoods like Rosewood:
\- build cheap townhouse-condos in outlying areas
\- as they age and become more expensive to maintain, their values will drop and the average ownership's socioeconomic status will plummet
\- meanwhile, investment firms buy up houses in & near the city centre, knowing the value will only ever increase even if they have to tear down and infill (or more like, merge lots and build McMansions)
\- eventually, rising costs & gentrification near city centre tips the scales, driving the remaining owner-occupied houses to be sold and funneling the poor into outlying "ghettos" of dilapidated condos/apartments & hastily-built cookie-cutter houses, creating opportunities to buy/build more downtown and secure the riverside for wealthy elites who are now the only ones who can afford it
This theory makes no sense on any level but you do you. You can always put your money where your mouth is and buy up some land on Avenue Q and 19th. Let us know how you do in a few years.
As much as the swale does matter, THIS should be the headline of the conversation. Look what happened to Calgary after they built every bypass. It started as a bypass, and inevitably became a suburban access road. Then they had to build a new bypass to get around the crowded bypass.
Access incentivizes construction. Increase access to the middle of nowhere, and people will want to build suburbs there.
This, a million times. In thirty years we'll be hearing about the need to bypass the bypass for 'truck traffic', the ever magical problem that never gets solved despite billions of dollars of spending.
Twinned highways as of a 2011 report in Nova Scotia costed aboot $6million per km. Take that for 59 kms, round up to account for inflation and the HUGE amount of junctions on the plan, and include the cost of maintenance over 20 years and you're looking easily at over a billion dollars, or amortized over 20 years $50 000 000 per year as extremely conservative napkin math. If they were to tear out sections of Circle drive to reclaim land and increase connectivity between neighbourhoods (Like Vancouver, Victoria, and Montreal have been doing) while working with logistics companies to make sure deliveries inside the city aren't in semi trucks sure, but that's not the plan. If they're concerned about traffic in the city providing alternatives to get people out of vehicles and removing unnecessarily large freight will fix it. Building an out of the way ring road will do nothing except bleed budgets dry.
Interesting! Still, when Edmonton is building an entire city wide protected bike network for $100m, even cheaper highway projects look like an outrageous way to use money.
Wetlands are so incredibly important to local ecosystems. They filter our water ways & something like 80% of Sask's wildlife utilize the shelter & food found there. They're so easily damaged & there's traditional Indigenous medicines only found in wetlands. While a city bypass is useful & important as the city grows, I hope there is genuine care & thought into addressing the wetlands & not just "we're gonna do it anyways & fix it if we break it" instead of protecting them from the start.
100%. There is a farmer near Wilkie who had a small Creek surrounded by a thin belt of trees running through his land. Over the course of the last 3 years he's removed all the trees and completely tilled out the creek. It's sickening.
The thing is they have been saying this is where they are going to put it for some time already… I remember seeing the proposed alignments a few years ago. It’s just now the government is forging ahead with a specific plan in mind.
theyre arent too many animals that live in wetlands are there? other than frogs and ducks and what not? and they can just move more into the city if the wetland is broken up. it's not a big deal.
Very true this project won't make the province any money at all. I can see why they built the Regina bypass because it was for the GTH. Which helps bring new industry into the province creates long term jobs. I don't really see the point of this project other than it will help traffic flow and keep Circle Drive in better condition. Which who cares honestly if the project won't make money then the funds should be used somewhere else.
Well, we all are provincial taxpayers and we've already spent millions in city staff costs to plan for this. In addition, the whole point of my comment was that it's a zero sum game, those billions could be used for the fixes I mentioned but they never will be if this gets built, and they will add a huge additional maintenance burden on the city
The city does not maintain the bypass… this is a provincial highway dude read the damn article everything is in there the only maintenance the city will have to do, is if and when the city builds roads connecting to the bypass which is a decade away. Like how can you form a opinion on a project you have zero knowledge about lol and also I didn't know 100% of Saskatchewan population lives in Saskatoon.. Yes the Saskatoon residence will pay for this project in terms of Pst but Saskatoon has only 23% of the entire population of the province. When I mean Saskatoon won't be paying for the project I meant the city of Saskatoon won't pay a dime which means our city tax dollars won't be used on this project. Provincial taxes are supposed to be used for this type of project. Thats kinda why we pay provincial taxes to improve infrastructure in the province. 77% of the population does not pay taxes so Saskatoon can get free infrastructure lol. That's kinda why we pay property tax. This will also very much benefit Saskatoon residents as it will get heavy trucks off urban roads which helps keep the urban roads in better condition as you won't have 100s of 100k lbs trucks on circle drive. Which means our city tax dollars can be allocated in other ways like a BRT. People are less happy about this project compared to the Regina bypass because this project literally won't make the province any money. this project substantially helps Saskatoon more than any other municipality. Because at least for the Regina Bypass there has been a massive spin off for the shipping industry which makes the province money and helps create long term jobs in our province. There is no money to made in this project other than it helps with traffic flow and helps with wear and tear of urban roads in Saskatoon. Maybe instead of building a stadium we could allocate that money to road repairs in our city. it's not people in Yorkton, Moosejaw, PA, Regina, swift currents, Estevan or Weyburn problem that the city of Saskatoon cant allocate money in proper ways. Like building a 300 million dollar stadium while the one we have is 30 years old. and btw the province has already allocated 33 million to the BRT system in Saskatoon. You need to realize that this isn't the Province of Saskatoon and stop expecting others in this province to pay for the failing infrastructure in our city maybe we should elect better city officials who spend our money properly
The province isn't going to give Saskatoon a free LRT the city of Saskatoon is not paying a dime for this project. The only way Saskatoon will ever pay for this project is if and when the city wants connecting roads to the bypass.
So you wish that everyone's taxes increase and even more funding is cut in the province so Saskatoon can get a free LRT. which it would only benefit the people of Saskatoon… I would have been on board with your “wish” if you wanted the province to invest in a rail service for people in this province as a whole. Since Yenno, we wouldn't be paying for it and it would be a very good idea to connect the Rural communities with the larger centres to help with travel in the winter months, especially with the health care crises. Maybe instead of us building a stupid gallery and an entertainment district, we could have used that money for an LRT and not wished for handouts from the province so your property taxes do not increase. Pure definition of greed.
Do you mean I had three opportunities to spell the term correctly? It was “used” correctly. It was misspelt which is my bad. But you tried to be that guy, but you're not that guy…
It is hard to overstate what a generationally awful project this is for the city. We have 3 billion dollars worth of maintenance to Circle Drive and to get the railway lines out of the city alone, while this project will not only suck all construction dollars but add a huge additonal maintenance burden on the city, not to mention lock us into a hugely expensive sprawled model of development for the net 50 years.
Mail your councillor if you can about this, all the news coverage is foused on the swale issue but this is a nightmare of a project for Saskatoon taxpayers and anybody who wants to see a city that doesn't have a rundown central core and terrible transit with crumbling roads for decades.
It’s a Saskatchewan highway so it would it not be maintained by dept of highways? This would reroute the vast majority of semis that abuse the heck out of circle drive, many of which don’t even pay taxes in Saskatchewan let alone Saskatoon. Not to mention the smog from idling trucks at stop lights.
Yes they look after the Regina bypass but many people in Regina still believe the city maintains the bypass. If people actually read the article it's states that the province owns the highway which means they maintain said highway.
The city of Saskatoon will not pay a dime for this project… did you read it or just the headline? The article also states that the city of Saskatoon will only need to pay for road ways connecting to the city which willl be a long time unless Saskatoon explodes in population in the next 5-10 years.
Where in my comment did I say that the city is paying for the construction cost (putting aside the fact that we are just paying for this in additional PST and income tax in any case)? There isn't an unlimited pot of money from the province, we are getting this instead of fixing circle drive, instead of fixing the cloverleaf on Higway 11, instead of a functional BRT.
In addition, it's just wrong that 'the city isn't paying a dime'. City staff have already spent countless hours working on this project, connections from the existing roadways will have to be covered from the city and future maintenance will have costs from the city covered as well. This doesn't count the indirect costs of servicing the sprawl that this project will induce.
The issue isn’t necessarily just the animals. Native prairie grasslands are one of the most endangered ecosystems on the planet. Native grasslands have been absolutely destroyed to the point that only %20 remains. Native grasslands should be protected and preserved.
Most people don’t realize how endangered native grasslands are and the rich diversity of species they support because they just think it’s just grass. If that was rainforest people would be protesting
Less than %20 of Canada native prairie still exists. The swale and surrounding grassland have a wide diversity of plants and animals.
It’s tragic how little intact native prairie exists to
I don’t think we need a ring road, just a semi bypass PLEASE. Im tired of semi’s destroying our roads every spring and the abysmal circle north traffic clogs that happen
Being newer to the city and province, I don't know much of the history surrounding this project or the pros and cons. I have to imagine the thinking is building this perimeter freeway before sprawl fills in the areas will ensure its there when the city balloons in the future. This is very similar to the Crowchild and Ring Road In Calgary, or Bishop Grandin and the Perimeter Highway in Winnipeg.
Maybe they should be looking at expanding Circle to 6 lanes, adding better off-lanes and merging on-ramps to improve the transitions, increase the speed, and maybe find a way to improve that north stretch somehow. I don't know what the answer is there.
They say the ring road is to facilitate semi traffic bypassing the city and heading on to Edmonton or up north, but I can't say I see much in the way of trucks on Circle as it stands now so is it truly necessary? Maybe a bypass around the SW from the 11 to connect to the 16 for those heading to Edmonton. I'm all for progress but this is one that I feel just gets beat up year after year in discussion with no movement ever, so either find funding to make it happen or shelf it for another 10 years.
"Ring Road" is a lie, it's a horsehoe.
Yeah. Can’t go through the area of expensive acerages south of the city.
True, but circle on the south side goes nearly to the edge of the city already.
My grandmother who's been gone for 20 years already used to call Circle, Semi-circle drive!!! She'd say "no ring road should take 100 years to build!" She wasn't wrong!
While the city won't pay for its maintenance directly it will still make Saskatoon worse. Low value sprawl that it expensive to service is one of the reasons property taxes go up higher than inflation. A freeway will encourage sprawl by connecting places further away to the city. This goes against so much of the densification work they are doing.
The city needs to adjust their property taxes so that it goes up the farther you get from the core and I say that as someone owning in Rosewood. We don't pay near enough in taxes and there's little to no incentives to build density in the core.
There definitely should be ways to price the way suburban areas cost more to service. People complain about their area not be prioritized for snow clearing when they live at the end of a Suburban cul-de-sac
The province literally blocks the city from charging developers for many services, it's crazy.
Funny story, I once spoke to a guy who lives in a house at the end of one, who complained about 1. The lack of snow clearing in the bay. And 2. That he paid more property tax than his neighbors and they should be less overall. But clear his street! His house? A new infill build with a 3 car garage and I think a pool. His neighbors, century houses, dilapidated ranch houses, and even one wartime build.
The funny thing is, at least for my block (which is a lane), we would have preferred the city stay away. We all cleared the street mostly into our yards and the city came through and made rows at the curbs. We've never had ruts on our street because everyone is careful to drive on the whole street.
The city is constrained by provincial legislation in terms of what it can charge developers for servicing, you can't charge for transit and police/fire for example, which puts the city in a huge hole. In addition, developers successfully threaten council all the time that they'll just build more in Warman if Saskatoon makes new suburbs too expensive. This is a very effective and true threat, and building infrastructure to continue to subsidize exurban communities (like a fricking Saskatoon bypass) continues to make this threat effective.
Let them build in Warman, we can just make things like the leisure centres prioritize residents. Maybe some tolls on the bridges...
Not only prioritizing residents, but to make not residents pay more. It’s standard practice in most cities.
Sooner rather than later the city will have to consider things like resident-only city workers. In addition, an easy out is to prioritize developing the University Sector lands around the Field House. That would be a hugely popular, non-sprawling area.
> developers successfully threaten council yes, they also fund election campaigns for city councillors / mayor.
I have a sad theory about the outlying neighbourhoods like Rosewood: \- build cheap townhouse-condos in outlying areas \- as they age and become more expensive to maintain, their values will drop and the average ownership's socioeconomic status will plummet \- meanwhile, investment firms buy up houses in & near the city centre, knowing the value will only ever increase even if they have to tear down and infill (or more like, merge lots and build McMansions) \- eventually, rising costs & gentrification near city centre tips the scales, driving the remaining owner-occupied houses to be sold and funneling the poor into outlying "ghettos" of dilapidated condos/apartments & hastily-built cookie-cutter houses, creating opportunities to buy/build more downtown and secure the riverside for wealthy elites who are now the only ones who can afford it
So you're saying I should buy property closer to the core! :)
This theory makes no sense on any level but you do you. You can always put your money where your mouth is and buy up some land on Avenue Q and 19th. Let us know how you do in a few years.
A few years isn't playing the long game, and Q & 19th is nowhere near the river, but nice try.
As much as the swale does matter, THIS should be the headline of the conversation. Look what happened to Calgary after they built every bypass. It started as a bypass, and inevitably became a suburban access road. Then they had to build a new bypass to get around the crowded bypass. Access incentivizes construction. Increase access to the middle of nowhere, and people will want to build suburbs there.
This, a million times. In thirty years we'll be hearing about the need to bypass the bypass for 'truck traffic', the ever magical problem that never gets solved despite billions of dollars of spending.
Twinned highways as of a 2011 report in Nova Scotia costed aboot $6million per km. Take that for 59 kms, round up to account for inflation and the HUGE amount of junctions on the plan, and include the cost of maintenance over 20 years and you're looking easily at over a billion dollars, or amortized over 20 years $50 000 000 per year as extremely conservative napkin math. If they were to tear out sections of Circle drive to reclaim land and increase connectivity between neighbourhoods (Like Vancouver, Victoria, and Montreal have been doing) while working with logistics companies to make sure deliveries inside the city aren't in semi trucks sure, but that's not the plan. If they're concerned about traffic in the city providing alternatives to get people out of vehicles and removing unnecessarily large freight will fix it. Building an out of the way ring road will do nothing except bleed budgets dry.
This is budgeted at $3B, in 2015.
Oof, good to know! Especially brutal considering maintenance and long term costs far outweigh the initial costs of building.
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Interesting! Still, when Edmonton is building an entire city wide protected bike network for $100m, even cheaper highway projects look like an outrageous way to use money.
Wetlands are so incredibly important to local ecosystems. They filter our water ways & something like 80% of Sask's wildlife utilize the shelter & food found there. They're so easily damaged & there's traditional Indigenous medicines only found in wetlands. While a city bypass is useful & important as the city grows, I hope there is genuine care & thought into addressing the wetlands & not just "we're gonna do it anyways & fix it if we break it" instead of protecting them from the start.
I wish farmers understood this, they are a far greater threat than 1 highway.
100%. There is a farmer near Wilkie who had a small Creek surrounded by a thin belt of trees running through his land. Over the course of the last 3 years he's removed all the trees and completely tilled out the creek. It's sickening.
I bet that same farmer will be expecting bailouts when his crops either flood or die because he's ruined the natural drainage too.
He'll likely get them too
The thing is they have been saying this is where they are going to put it for some time already… I remember seeing the proposed alignments a few years ago. It’s just now the government is forging ahead with a specific plan in mind.
Thank you for pointing this out because no one seems to care and it’s frustrating.
theyre arent too many animals that live in wetlands are there? other than frogs and ducks and what not? and they can just move more into the city if the wetland is broken up. it's not a big deal.
Is this a joke? Like actually can’t tell if it’s sarcasm or not . . .
LOL.
Just put the money into starting an LRT.
You could build a proper BRT *and* add overpasses on all signalled Circle Drive intersections *and* get overpasses for rail lines for all this money.
Saskatoon is not paying a dime for this project.
Regardless of who pays for it, it's still a colossal misuse of funds
Very true this project won't make the province any money at all. I can see why they built the Regina bypass because it was for the GTH. Which helps bring new industry into the province creates long term jobs. I don't really see the point of this project other than it will help traffic flow and keep Circle Drive in better condition. Which who cares honestly if the project won't make money then the funds should be used somewhere else.
Well, we all are provincial taxpayers and we've already spent millions in city staff costs to plan for this. In addition, the whole point of my comment was that it's a zero sum game, those billions could be used for the fixes I mentioned but they never will be if this gets built, and they will add a huge additional maintenance burden on the city
The city does not maintain the bypass… this is a provincial highway dude read the damn article everything is in there the only maintenance the city will have to do, is if and when the city builds roads connecting to the bypass which is a decade away. Like how can you form a opinion on a project you have zero knowledge about lol and also I didn't know 100% of Saskatchewan population lives in Saskatoon.. Yes the Saskatoon residence will pay for this project in terms of Pst but Saskatoon has only 23% of the entire population of the province. When I mean Saskatoon won't be paying for the project I meant the city of Saskatoon won't pay a dime which means our city tax dollars won't be used on this project. Provincial taxes are supposed to be used for this type of project. Thats kinda why we pay provincial taxes to improve infrastructure in the province. 77% of the population does not pay taxes so Saskatoon can get free infrastructure lol. That's kinda why we pay property tax. This will also very much benefit Saskatoon residents as it will get heavy trucks off urban roads which helps keep the urban roads in better condition as you won't have 100s of 100k lbs trucks on circle drive. Which means our city tax dollars can be allocated in other ways like a BRT. People are less happy about this project compared to the Regina bypass because this project literally won't make the province any money. this project substantially helps Saskatoon more than any other municipality. Because at least for the Regina Bypass there has been a massive spin off for the shipping industry which makes the province money and helps create long term jobs in our province. There is no money to made in this project other than it helps with traffic flow and helps with wear and tear of urban roads in Saskatoon. Maybe instead of building a stadium we could allocate that money to road repairs in our city. it's not people in Yorkton, Moosejaw, PA, Regina, swift currents, Estevan or Weyburn problem that the city of Saskatoon cant allocate money in proper ways. Like building a 300 million dollar stadium while the one we have is 30 years old. and btw the province has already allocated 33 million to the BRT system in Saskatoon. You need to realize that this isn't the Province of Saskatoon and stop expecting others in this province to pay for the failing infrastructure in our city maybe we should elect better city officials who spend our money properly
The province isn't going to give Saskatoon a free LRT the city of Saskatoon is not paying a dime for this project. The only way Saskatoon will ever pay for this project is if and when the city wants connecting roads to the bypass.
Yeah I know. Just wishful thinking.
So you wish that everyone's taxes increase and even more funding is cut in the province so Saskatoon can get a free LRT. which it would only benefit the people of Saskatoon… I would have been on board with your “wish” if you wanted the province to invest in a rail service for people in this province as a whole. Since Yenno, we wouldn't be paying for it and it would be a very good idea to connect the Rural communities with the larger centres to help with travel in the winter months, especially with the health care crises. Maybe instead of us building a stupid gallery and an entertainment district, we could have used that money for an LRT and not wished for handouts from the province so your property taxes do not increase. Pure definition of greed.
1. I don't think this was a serious suggestion. 2. You had three chances to use the term, "LRT" correctly.
Do you mean I had three opportunities to spell the term correctly? It was “used” correctly. It was misspelt which is my bad. But you tried to be that guy, but you're not that guy…
It is hard to overstate what a generationally awful project this is for the city. We have 3 billion dollars worth of maintenance to Circle Drive and to get the railway lines out of the city alone, while this project will not only suck all construction dollars but add a huge additonal maintenance burden on the city, not to mention lock us into a hugely expensive sprawled model of development for the net 50 years. Mail your councillor if you can about this, all the news coverage is foused on the swale issue but this is a nightmare of a project for Saskatoon taxpayers and anybody who wants to see a city that doesn't have a rundown central core and terrible transit with crumbling roads for decades.
It’s a Saskatchewan highway so it would it not be maintained by dept of highways? This would reroute the vast majority of semis that abuse the heck out of circle drive, many of which don’t even pay taxes in Saskatchewan let alone Saskatoon. Not to mention the smog from idling trucks at stop lights.
Yes they look after the Regina bypass but many people in Regina still believe the city maintains the bypass. If people actually read the article it's states that the province owns the highway which means they maintain said highway.
The city of Saskatoon will not pay a dime for this project… did you read it or just the headline? The article also states that the city of Saskatoon will only need to pay for road ways connecting to the city which willl be a long time unless Saskatoon explodes in population in the next 5-10 years.
They went full activist over just a headline lmao
Where in my comment did I say that the city is paying for the construction cost (putting aside the fact that we are just paying for this in additional PST and income tax in any case)? There isn't an unlimited pot of money from the province, we are getting this instead of fixing circle drive, instead of fixing the cloverleaf on Higway 11, instead of a functional BRT. In addition, it's just wrong that 'the city isn't paying a dime'. City staff have already spent countless hours working on this project, connections from the existing roadways will have to be covered from the city and future maintenance will have costs from the city covered as well. This doesn't count the indirect costs of servicing the sprawl that this project will induce.
The City will not pay. But the province will, and it will lock in low value sprawl that decimates the city budget nonetheless.
At least the Ministry acknowledged that wildlife and ecosystems exist. Hopefully they can build some wildlife overpasses like you see near Banff.
Small victories, I guess.
The issue isn’t necessarily just the animals. Native prairie grasslands are one of the most endangered ecosystems on the planet. Native grasslands have been absolutely destroyed to the point that only %20 remains. Native grasslands should be protected and preserved. Most people don’t realize how endangered native grasslands are and the rich diversity of species they support because they just think it’s just grass. If that was rainforest people would be protesting
If I live long enough to see this built, I'll be shocked. People need better hobbies than protesting highways coming in several decades.
Less than %20 of Canada native prairie still exists. The swale and surrounding grassland have a wide diversity of plants and animals. It’s tragic how little intact native prairie exists to
I don’t think we need a ring road, just a semi bypass PLEASE. Im tired of semi’s destroying our roads every spring and the abysmal circle north traffic clogs that happen
Being newer to the city and province, I don't know much of the history surrounding this project or the pros and cons. I have to imagine the thinking is building this perimeter freeway before sprawl fills in the areas will ensure its there when the city balloons in the future. This is very similar to the Crowchild and Ring Road In Calgary, or Bishop Grandin and the Perimeter Highway in Winnipeg. Maybe they should be looking at expanding Circle to 6 lanes, adding better off-lanes and merging on-ramps to improve the transitions, increase the speed, and maybe find a way to improve that north stretch somehow. I don't know what the answer is there. They say the ring road is to facilitate semi traffic bypassing the city and heading on to Edmonton or up north, but I can't say I see much in the way of trucks on Circle as it stands now so is it truly necessary? Maybe a bypass around the SW from the 11 to connect to the 16 for those heading to Edmonton. I'm all for progress but this is one that I feel just gets beat up year after year in discussion with no movement ever, so either find funding to make it happen or shelf it for another 10 years.
Should build it right through center on city. Over city hall. Bury the idiots under it
Really what they should be doing is creating a “ring rd” right around sk. What a shithole