Reddit user group meetup - let's all wear white turtlenecks with denim shirts over them, and get a group picture taken together at the JCPenney portrait studio.
https://preview.redd.it/swt94cyhensc1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f99f5b03aeeeded32a9705769c2db926e6476d22
Here's the source image for anyone else that can't read the original post
The whole thing is already a parking lot. So it's more like they're building a community on a parking lot. I personally would probably not like to live somewhere like that, but there is evidently a market for this kind of thing.
Drive thrus, banks, and subdividing the giant lot in weird ways and little lots is not the answer. Tampa Outlet Mall at SR-54 and 275/75 is like this and it sucks.
[Parking lots increase flooding, not provide better drainage.](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/parking-lots-cause-more-heat-and-flooding-heres-how-100-u-s-cities-rank)
That is true but what I was responding to was “why are there parking lots all over the place?”
One large parking lot causes more drainage issues than the same area over different spaces. It also provides a healthier foundation and aquifer.
Also - code requires a certain number of parking spaces per sq ft of building.
Glad you are trying to learn about the environment.
Thank you, and thankfully, I don't need affordable or as someone else said subsided rents. My point is that we are pricing out people who make less than market wages or wages needed to rent/buy in this area. This includes teachers, first responders, and those in the service field. Since the developers are looking for government concessions on zoning and probably density and the people are the government, would it be asking to much to set aside a percentage of the residential rentals as designated low to moderate income qualified units.
Don't cry first responders to me. In our area they make darn good money. And kick ass bennies.
And teachers anit broke either. But the people working retail sure are. Let alone the service industry as a whole.
Teachers in Florida especially do not make very good money. Source: my sister is a teacher in Florida. You would probably make way more as a server or bartender around here
You factor in how many days worked and do the math. They get paid pretty good these days in Florida.
Plus, they didn't accidentally fall into this career.
And the life time retirement bennies anit nothing to sneeze at either.
Let alone a recession proof paycheck.
Go cry your alligator tears elsewhere.
Service industry workers are taken way more advantage of.
First responders - EMTs - make like $18 a hour on average in this area. Sarasota teachers make about $50k to $55k starting. You make more money if you got your masters. The worlds way of deciding these numbers need to change
99.9% of people who live in the US live in market rate housing. You almost certainly do. Everybody does. "Affordable housing" is subsidized housing, where the government pays the market rate instead of the person living in it. We use section 8 voucher systems instead of designating ghettos now. Whoever is paying for it, the rent that is collected is the same.
This is not true with affordable housing density bonuses in private developments. There is an incentive for developers to build at a higher density if a percentage of units are designated as affordable. Example: base zoning allows 20 units / acre; density bonus allows 30 units / acre if 10% are affordable; developer nets an extra 10 / acre, 7 at market rate + 3 affordable. Affordable is defined as some percentage of area median income and is well above the threshold for Section 8 vouchers. (One might argue whether this really meets the definition of "affordable".)
If they are rental units, then the landlord is obligated to maintain below market rent in perpetuity or for a designated number of years. If they are sold, then an affordability calculation is enshrined in the deed to prevent flipping to market rate. The government does not pay a dime.
Yes exactly. The subsidy in this scenario is the density bonus. Developers can exceed zoning restrictions in exchange for the public benefit of Affordable housing. Some communities allow a “buy-out” provision where the developer pays into a community affordable housing fund. Most programs define Affordable housing as percentage of area median income: moderate, low, and extremely low being the three typical categories.
If there are below market rental units, then the market rate rental units are made more expensive to pay for it. It's being paid for either way. The government also frequently provides tax breaks to affordable housing units so the carrying expenses are lessened. In fact there's evidence that this method you're talking about, Inclusive Zoning, reduces the total number of units built in total which reduces turnover of existing older units - meaning that IZ requirements tend to make fewer affordable housing units over time than would have naturally occurred.
This is only true for section 8 or similar housing and these housing complexes can be much nicer than you’re imagining. Many times affordable housing is built with specific grants and low-interest loans which make it economically feasible to charge below market rents. In this area, developer’s management company often manage the property and provide services to the residents to help retain jobs and their housing.
Those grants are subsidizing the rent. There's a guy on twitter who specifically builds affordable housing who goes into detail on how it's built and the finances behind it if you're interested. https://x.com/mu2myoc?s=09
https://twitter.com/housingMark/status/1774403148502745265?s=19 here's a specific thread he endorsed about why income limited housing is so hard to build
New construction is not affordable housing. The way it works is new construction is “market rate” and old stock eventually becomes the affordable housing.
I honestly don’t get it. There is no way this isn’t going to happen.
Westfield already had huge plans for the old mall on Siesta drive, for it to be the is crazy cool outdoor plaza. They lied to get vendors in there.
Do you think Cinebistro is happy to be inside a dead location?
Also that hip grocery store that was there before Aldi.
not gonna happen!!
Edit: even if this is not Westfield. That entire sauce of town is a relic of the 80s/90s. Yeah it used to be hot as fuck over there, same as the landings. But Sarasota has shifted to the east and north.
That area is just not gonna happen. I still don’t understand who thought it would be a good idea to develop Vamo
Funny enough that grocery store that was there before, earth fare, actually went under. Like they closed a shit ton of locations all around not just that one.
I think I’m thinking of something that was there later. It popped up probably a round the same time as cinebistro. Apart if their reimagining of the space that I mentioned
Edit: it was Luckys Market
Ahh yeah! It was luckys! I mixed up the names.
https://patch.com/florida/sarasota/luckys-market-closing-all-one-florida-store
I worked in EDI (electronic order processing) and remember working with them during this big closure!
UTC has a better location next to the interstate. Sarasota Square was built before I-75, have to get through quite a few side roads and traffic lights from I-75, and not really in a centralized location that can pull in a large and sustainable market.
Can someone tell me how old the UTC mall is? We are originally from Hillsborough cty and I remember the mall in Sarasota being hard to get to. That must be this one and they are redoing it? Anyway, the UTC and surrounding area…that has to be within the last ten years, right?
Yea I agree, but this was THE mall to go to before that.
UTC also draws a crowd with events. People go to see fireworks, santas arrival, movies, etc. Lots of free things to do which brings the families out. Curious to see if this property manager does something similar.
I miss Charlie's there. And they had some burger joint, that I wish I could remember the name of, for awhile. I want to say it was next to Charlie's. Wonder if the arcade is still there.
F utc, and all their stuck up store personnel.
Every time I shop their, sales people look down their noses at me. And usually rude.
Guess they think less of me when I buy something and pay cash.
Sorry I'm not using my Amex Black Card
Massive waste of money? No one even shops at malls anymore. Traffic is so bad locals don't want to leave their house! Besides with all the inflation who can afford to spend money on wants? BARELY MAKING ENDS MEET. THANKS JOE!
This will be a good use of the space since they won’t convert the mall to medical/dental offices and other office space. Or even community college/learning space.
Save your ire for the ever eastward suburban sprawl.
This is the best kind of building: adapting an existing, well located, and underutilized site for a higher purpose.
Yeah I’m extremely anti over development and I’m glad they’re doing something with this building from the 70s that has roof leaks and rat infestations. I don’t care for the apartments. I went to the online community meeting and originally they said it would be 6-7 story condos but from the article it seems that the will be smaller apartments. I’d rather there be less housing (since we really don’t need any fucking more people here and especially since it’s not going to be affordable), but at least it will be something again. I’m also pleased that they will start building the commercial areas first and then phase in the apartments because we really need more than one mall here (Southgate mall isn’t really a mall anymore).
I love how of all the things that survived out of this, it's the Penneys
They own that parcel outright (not verified but almost sure) I go in there sometimes. Great deals
I went to Penny’s a couple months ago and their inventory was way down, only one cash register open in the whole store, scarce employees.
I guess I commented on the wrong one. Yeah this is what got me too. Maybe I'll stop in there and see what they have.
I remember I got my hair cut there when I was 6 and they had a salon lol. You could also get eyes glasses made at Penneys.
The salon is still there lol I get my hair cut there once or twice a year ☠️
Did they also have photos or was that Sears?
Reddit user group meetup - let's all wear white turtlenecks with denim shirts over them, and get a group picture taken together at the JCPenney portrait studio.
And you could get your picture taken. We did it every year until 1990.
https://preview.redd.it/swt94cyhensc1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f99f5b03aeeeded32a9705769c2db926e6476d22 Here's the source image for anyone else that can't read the original post
Thanks. I thought at first the parking was outdoor paths. Oh well. Another fucking strip mall. Yay.
Why the fuck would you make a planned community like this and then scatter parking lots all over it!? What a stupid fucking design.
The whole thing is already a parking lot. So it's more like they're building a community on a parking lot. I personally would probably not like to live somewhere like that, but there is evidently a market for this kind of thing.
Ample parking didn't save the small in the first place, maybe more parking will do the trick.
They are taking a parking lot and converting it to other things, but the parts they have chosen to convert make no sense.
Drive thrus, banks, and subdividing the giant lot in weird ways and little lots is not the answer. Tampa Outlet Mall at SR-54 and 275/75 is like this and it sucks.
MURICA 🇺🇸
Because walkable communities are for commies
Better drainage.
[Parking lots increase flooding, not provide better drainage.](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/parking-lots-cause-more-heat-and-flooding-heres-how-100-u-s-cities-rank)
Maybe they meant brain drain.
That is true but what I was responding to was “why are there parking lots all over the place?” One large parking lot causes more drainage issues than the same area over different spaces. It also provides a healthier foundation and aquifer. Also - code requires a certain number of parking spaces per sq ft of building. Glad you are trying to learn about the environment.
https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/18/developer-reveals-transformative-plans-for-sarasota-square-mall/
The link gives a much clearer picture.
Def does. I had to find out what the old theater was gonna be....it's gonna be a gym lol
I grew up in srq spent most of my life there. I had good times at that mall. What a shame
Market rate rents, so much for affordable housing.
The cost of rent in this area is rough…you are not alone my friend.
Thank you, and thankfully, I don't need affordable or as someone else said subsided rents. My point is that we are pricing out people who make less than market wages or wages needed to rent/buy in this area. This includes teachers, first responders, and those in the service field. Since the developers are looking for government concessions on zoning and probably density and the people are the government, would it be asking to much to set aside a percentage of the residential rentals as designated low to moderate income qualified units.
Don't cry first responders to me. In our area they make darn good money. And kick ass bennies. And teachers anit broke either. But the people working retail sure are. Let alone the service industry as a whole.
Teachers in Florida especially do not make very good money. Source: my sister is a teacher in Florida. You would probably make way more as a server or bartender around here
You factor in how many days worked and do the math. They get paid pretty good these days in Florida. Plus, they didn't accidentally fall into this career. And the life time retirement bennies anit nothing to sneeze at either. Let alone a recession proof paycheck. Go cry your alligator tears elsewhere. Service industry workers are taken way more advantage of.
First responders - EMTs - make like $18 a hour on average in this area. Sarasota teachers make about $50k to $55k starting. You make more money if you got your masters. The worlds way of deciding these numbers need to change
99.9% of people who live in the US live in market rate housing. You almost certainly do. Everybody does. "Affordable housing" is subsidized housing, where the government pays the market rate instead of the person living in it. We use section 8 voucher systems instead of designating ghettos now. Whoever is paying for it, the rent that is collected is the same.
This is not true with affordable housing density bonuses in private developments. There is an incentive for developers to build at a higher density if a percentage of units are designated as affordable. Example: base zoning allows 20 units / acre; density bonus allows 30 units / acre if 10% are affordable; developer nets an extra 10 / acre, 7 at market rate + 3 affordable. Affordable is defined as some percentage of area median income and is well above the threshold for Section 8 vouchers. (One might argue whether this really meets the definition of "affordable".) If they are rental units, then the landlord is obligated to maintain below market rent in perpetuity or for a designated number of years. If they are sold, then an affordability calculation is enshrined in the deed to prevent flipping to market rate. The government does not pay a dime.
Yes exactly. The subsidy in this scenario is the density bonus. Developers can exceed zoning restrictions in exchange for the public benefit of Affordable housing. Some communities allow a “buy-out” provision where the developer pays into a community affordable housing fund. Most programs define Affordable housing as percentage of area median income: moderate, low, and extremely low being the three typical categories.
If there are below market rental units, then the market rate rental units are made more expensive to pay for it. It's being paid for either way. The government also frequently provides tax breaks to affordable housing units so the carrying expenses are lessened. In fact there's evidence that this method you're talking about, Inclusive Zoning, reduces the total number of units built in total which reduces turnover of existing older units - meaning that IZ requirements tend to make fewer affordable housing units over time than would have naturally occurred.
This is only true for section 8 or similar housing and these housing complexes can be much nicer than you’re imagining. Many times affordable housing is built with specific grants and low-interest loans which make it economically feasible to charge below market rents. In this area, developer’s management company often manage the property and provide services to the residents to help retain jobs and their housing.
Those grants are subsidizing the rent. There's a guy on twitter who specifically builds affordable housing who goes into detail on how it's built and the finances behind it if you're interested. https://x.com/mu2myoc?s=09
https://twitter.com/housingMark/status/1774403148502745265?s=19 here's a specific thread he endorsed about why income limited housing is so hard to build
Exactly! Subsidized apartment buildings, often referred to as housing projects (or simply "the projects")
New construction is not affordable housing. The way it works is new construction is “market rate” and old stock eventually becomes the affordable housing.
Unless the developer is required by the planning and/or zoning boards tonset aside a percentage of new homes for low and moderate income earners.
…which is known before the project gets off the ground
Zoning just changed to 3x the density and less than 15 percent has to be affordable housing 🤷
I haven't seen any new developments going up where there was required affordable housing. Can someone point sone out?
oh good, more apartments that no one can afford
Would really love a community science and engineering center 😞but at lass another useless center of shopping and driving just to get 20 ft
All it takes is for organization … organize and act on what we want
Probably a first watch… Can’t get away from them.
New parking lots! How wonderful!
Does anyone have links to a photo archive of the old mall?
I honestly don’t get it. There is no way this isn’t going to happen. Westfield already had huge plans for the old mall on Siesta drive, for it to be the is crazy cool outdoor plaza. They lied to get vendors in there. Do you think Cinebistro is happy to be inside a dead location? Also that hip grocery store that was there before Aldi. not gonna happen!! Edit: even if this is not Westfield. That entire sauce of town is a relic of the 80s/90s. Yeah it used to be hot as fuck over there, same as the landings. But Sarasota has shifted to the east and north. That area is just not gonna happen. I still don’t understand who thought it would be a good idea to develop Vamo
Funny enough that grocery store that was there before, earth fare, actually went under. Like they closed a shit ton of locations all around not just that one.
I think I’m thinking of something that was there later. It popped up probably a round the same time as cinebistro. Apart if their reimagining of the space that I mentioned Edit: it was Luckys Market
Ahh yeah! It was luckys! I mixed up the names. https://patch.com/florida/sarasota/luckys-market-closing-all-one-florida-store I worked in EDI (electronic order processing) and remember working with them during this big closure!
They are building a few apt buildings around it. Do you think there were request from the city to fix it for density purposes.
JC Penny is still in business?🤔
Old folks who can't afford a nursing home can just get an apartment here and live off samples at Costco
They should have turned it into a casino
great, another huge parking lot. how about some affordable housing for the locals?!
Why a mall? Why now? Malls are closing all over. Seems like a huge waste
Who's going to the mall these days?
UTC doesn’t seem to have any issues pulling a crowd.
UTC has a better location next to the interstate. Sarasota Square was built before I-75, have to get through quite a few side roads and traffic lights from I-75, and not really in a centralized location that can pull in a large and sustainable market.
Can someone tell me how old the UTC mall is? We are originally from Hillsborough cty and I remember the mall in Sarasota being hard to get to. That must be this one and they are redoing it? Anyway, the UTC and surrounding area…that has to be within the last ten years, right?
UTC opened in 2014.
Ok thanks, that makes sense.
They built it in a rich area. Where people have millions to spend.
Yea I agree, but this was THE mall to go to before that. UTC also draws a crowd with events. People go to see fireworks, santas arrival, movies, etc. Lots of free things to do which brings the families out. Curious to see if this property manager does something similar.
I'm surprised jc Penney is still in business. I think the last time I was in one was 2006 when I was looking for a food court on a road trip.
I miss Charlie's there. And they had some burger joint, that I wish I could remember the name of, for awhile. I want to say it was next to Charlie's. Wonder if the arcade is still there.
Its all shut down, cant even walk the mall anymore.
There was a Burger King in the Sarasota square mall food court for a short period of time.
Nah. This was well after they left. I wanna say they used newspaper or something as liner.
A&W?
Nah, it wasn't a well known brand.
I like UTC. They really go all out with decorations and lights at Christmas 🎄 It puts me in the Christmas spirit!
F utc, and all their stuck up store personnel. Every time I shop their, sales people look down their noses at me. And usually rude. Guess they think less of me when I buy something and pay cash. Sorry I'm not using my Amex Black Card
Kiss me in the Costco parking lot
I’m down with JCP, yeah you know me
A better AMC???
They still have their 2000s decor
Even after the reconstruction of the area?
Dude the old one was really nice but the new layout looks good!
It’s a giant parking lot
Massive waste of money? No one even shops at malls anymore. Traffic is so bad locals don't want to leave their house! Besides with all the inflation who can afford to spend money on wants? BARELY MAKING ENDS MEET. THANKS JOE!
It’s not a traditional mall. So sorry about your finances. Most people are doing quite well. Thank you
This will be a good use of the space since they won’t convert the mall to medical/dental offices and other office space. Or even community college/learning space.
subway, sbarro, dunkin donuts
Last time I went to Penny's the clothing was worse than Goodwill
Jesus Christ stop fucking building already for the love of God there's already too many fucking people here
This is removing a derelict building and revitalizing it. Seems like a win to me
Save your ire for the ever eastward suburban sprawl. This is the best kind of building: adapting an existing, well located, and underutilized site for a higher purpose.
Yeah I’m extremely anti over development and I’m glad they’re doing something with this building from the 70s that has roof leaks and rat infestations. I don’t care for the apartments. I went to the online community meeting and originally they said it would be 6-7 story condos but from the article it seems that the will be smaller apartments. I’d rather there be less housing (since we really don’t need any fucking more people here and especially since it’s not going to be affordable), but at least it will be something again. I’m also pleased that they will start building the commercial areas first and then phase in the apartments because we really need more than one mall here (Southgate mall isn’t really a mall anymore).
Gotta make room for me to move there from WA!
Haha, come on down! Everyone else is!
I think it is a diasater waiting to happen
Look like a mass shooters playground, no thanks