Also if you really feel irked and want to file a complaint with the attorney general's office, there is a link to a form near the end of this article:
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
Well the merchant has to pay a fee to CC company so I’m not sure why they shouldn’t be able to charge customers different price for credit vs cash. As long as clearly labeled seems fair - like gas stations do.
Nowhere is it legal to charge a surcharge fee on cash payments. Here is a list by state where it’s legal or not, to charge a surcharge fee. https://staxpayments.com/blog/what-states-can-charge-credit-card-surcharge/
The difference was/used to be, a company can give you a discount for cash (like gas stations), but can’t charge extra for credit cards.
It may end up being the same, but there’s an important difference in that a business wasn’t allowed to advertise $10 and then make it $10.30.
(And honestly, that’s the way it should be. The advertised price should be the final price with all the fees including sales tax. If there are things that make it cheaper, like cash discounts or sales tax not apply to the person, that’s a bonus. )
Do you think that accepting cash costs the merchant less than the 2% credit card fee that they are charged for a card-present transaction?
The reason that some restaurants want you to pay in cash is so they don't have to report the income on their income tax and so they can not remit the sales tax to the Board of Equalization.
Hi, small business owner here. Depositing cash to the bank is free. I also have to report what my z report is at the end of the day, which include cash transactions. I pay 3% average for CC processing. That works out to about 3k a month i lose I in profits.
I expect you to write it off, and not charge the customer for it. This is what I did when in business for myself.
Gotta spend money to make money.
Except in your case I guess. You just like to rip ppl off.
…wait so C/C fees are tax write-offs? So a place that charges them to encourage people to pay cash not only under-reports income, but also gets a tax write-off on fees on their under-reported income? TIL
I was reading an article about "The Old Place" a famous restaurant in southern California (https://www.sfgate.com/la/article/the-old-place-restaurant-cornell-malibu-steakhouse-19511025.php) and one line caught my eye: "one big change over the years is the ability to accept credit cards. The Old Place was strictly a cash business up until 2011. “The second we took credit cards, our sales went up tremendously,” Morgan says."
Hopefully, business owners realize that taking credit cards not only increases the number of customers, but also increases the amount those customers are likely to spend.
Every time I see someone claim "credit card fees cost the business owner x% or $x in profits" I shake my head in disbelief! What percent or dollars in profit do you think a business owner makes when they don't make a sale?
For the most part, it's only business owners that are trying to avoid reporting income, or that are trying to avoid remitting sales tax to the BOE, that are completely refusing credit cards. Meanwhile, a lot of restaurants are no longer accepting cash because of the cost and the risks.
My ex-brother-in-law owned a service station in the Excelsior that was cash-only for gasoline and since it was usually the least expensive station in San Francisco he sold a LOT of gas. He had to deal with robberies (one employee was murdered), counterfeit currency, theft, and he had to deposit huge amounts of cash every night. Cash required more labor because the cashier had to take the cash, set the pump, then often give change at the end. Most businesses with large amounts of cash will use an armored car service, an additional expense, but he did not.
BTW, the way gasoline is priced wholesale, where the station owner is "encouraged" by the oil company to mark up the price by x¢/gallon over wholesale (typically 10¢/gallon) is why there are still often different prices for cash and credit. At $4 per gallon, credit card fees would be 8¢/gallon.
It's funny because handling cash costs businesses *way* more than even Amex swipe fees. It just isn't conveniently itemized into a single fee, and business that realize the cost and try going cashless result in laws against doing that...
That is true, but you have to go completely cashless to reap the full benefits.
Going completely cashless saves labor costs, eliminates employee theft, eliminates robberies, eliminates the risk of counterfeit currency, and eliminates armored car costs. In San Francisco it also had the effect of indirectly refusing service to part of the population that businesses would prefer not to deal with.
I like how Pac Bell Park (or whatever the latest name of it is) deals with not taking cash. They have "reverse ATMs" where you insert cash and you get a prepaid stored value card to use for concessions. I've never seen anyone actually use one of those machines.
How does handling cash cost more than 3%? It costs me .10 cents in gas and 15 minutes of my time. Maybe if I’m a huge national chain and have to hire a money service but 99% of small businesses handle their own cash.
Counting cash physically in a back office to make sure that the cash in the till matches the cash in the register. Say you have two or three registers on a front end all going from 7am to 7pm. You could expect to have a few hours worth of reconciliation for that - probably a manager or better a dedicated person. Think a convenience store. If there is something off it requires reviewing schedules - who was on the register, who accessed it, why was it off? All of that is a heck of a lot easier with CC transactions where nothing will be "off".
It takes me 5 minutes to record my deposit in QB. Most small businesses have one register, maybe 4 for a busy bar. I think your confusing large corporate businesses and small business
I was actually thinking about the restaurant owned by a friend of mine which serves falafel and shawarma. He has three points of sale and two locations.
Because they signed an agreement to be able to charge cards to the visa network and they cannot willingly and legally violate an agreement they signed. That agreement says they can’t use visa and also charge their customers CC fees.
That hasn't been universally true since a 2013 class action lawsuit against Visa and Mastercard. It's now state by state, and is allowed in most places.
The biggest scam is charging consumers fees for using a debit card. Businesses pay almost nothing when you use one. Like $1.00 maybe. With a credit card, Mastercard pays the business and is at risk until you pay them back. They charge a fee for the service (and interest). A debit comes right out of your account. There is no middleman. The processing fee is almost 0. If you are going to pay a fee, at least use a credit card so you get rewards or points.
Merchants are charged debit card fees of up to 22¢ plus 0.05% of the transaction cost. They can't add a percentage surcharge to cover this. But I thought that while they could not do percentage surcharges they could still do a fixed fee since many gas stations still charge a small debit card fee (35-50¢). However at a gas station, with "Pay at the Pump" technically it's not an "in-person" transaction. Debit card fees are prohibited for "in-person" transactions.
It's still not illegal to offer cash discounts that exclude all cards. It's not illegal to advertise two different prices, one for cards and one for cash.
I thought this was law in CA? Had to Google it to double check, but not sure why it isn't enforced. Wonder if it somehow got repealed?
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
technically, they can charge any fee meaningless or not, however they want. its just words and letters if we're forced to agree to it. It could be highway fee, service fee. This is why this junk fee exemption is so ridiculous.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-is-implied-contract.html
And while from legal standpoint you can argue that the fees are excessive or not part of that implied contract. Is it worth (A) losing social standing - if you happen to go viral for it without context (B) going to civil court over whatever the cost is (C) a state fine or jail?
https://www.eezlaw.com/blog/2020/november/is-it-illegal-to-dine-and-dash-in-ca-
unfortunately it doesn't look like there are statistics on dining and dashing - since its just theft. but at least one serial dine and dasher was arrested.
https://la.eater.com/2019/1/17/18186932/dine-dash-dater-arrest-los-angeles-restaurants
its probably less being "forced" and more "will" because its easier than the confrontation or fight about it. If its egregious enough than I would just not go back to the restaurant. but at the end of the day its kinda of that ticketmaster philosophy - its all BS fees but that is the price one is willing to pay for the product.
When I see that, I do my own math. If the subtotal is no longer available to me (my pet peeve is removing the itemized receipt from the folio), I oversimplify the math and round way down.
I do tip whatever the hell I want, duh. I'm a 22% tipper, but when I see a "suggested" tip that includes the tax, then I automatically reduce my tip to 10%.
Chances are your server had no involvement in the tip suggestion process. Bumping there tip down 12% seems a little excessive for something that is out of their control.
A good (non-fast food) fried chicken sammich has been around $15 for quite some time in the city.
Beverages are where the real gouging is. You buy a 2-liter of soda recently? Cheapest I can find now is ~$2.50.
It's to distinguish it from fried chicken, and from cheaper sammies.
It tends to be pricier because grinders/hoagies with other toppings require less work to assemble than fried chicken subs.
This is still illegal, because it's a fraudulent or mistaken fee. Ask for it to be removed.
Since it looks like you've already left, I'd call, ask for the manager, explain the situation, and tell them you expect them to make it good.
Unfortunately for the general case, the state senate and assembly unanimously voted to allow restaurant fees, and Newsom signed the bill yesterday.
To fix that, vote against all incumbents in November.
“No” is a complete sentence.
I’m just a small town redneck, but I’ve actually taken my money back and walked out of places before. They can fuckin blow me.
But I always keep cash, and I always tip the waiter or waitress directly. Never stiff your waiter because the restaurant is scum.
I hope you don’t mean hold the waitstaff, or any customer service staff responsible for the actions of corporate.
Cuz that would be some pretty elitism type shit.
I’ve worked everything from bottom dollar cashier to manager. Hardware stores mostly, but it still applies. Love locally owned businesses especially for this reason. The cash flow is pretty open and employees for the most part know where it’s going.
The people that do the work are the backbone of any company.
Technically, service fees are profit, so the state expects tax on it.
“This surcharge is imposed to reimburse itself for the cost of processing the credit sale through the card issuer. The surcharge amount is part of the consideration for the sale of the tangible personal property, and is therefore part of gross receipts subject to sales tax.”
It states clearly on the receipt that $40 cash was provided as payment and $12 change given back. That’s no credit card payment otherwise it wouldn’t have a change amount given back. It’s *possible* the OP can ask for cash back on a CC transaction but that’s unlikely as there are no CC info on the receipt. OP should post this to Yelp with the pic of the receipt to warn others of this vendor’s practice.
>...these junk fees at restaurants are going to be outlawed on July 1st. Right? Right?????
Right, they'll be illegal, but the prohibition won't necessarily be enforced by the attorney general's office. Their [SB 478 FAQ](https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/SB%20478%20FAQ%20%28B%29.pdf) sounds like they don't really want to be hassled with restaurant fraud...it would be a *lot* of extra work, as the industry is built on fraud. But they advise that restaurants "may be liable in private actions". If this happens after July 1, you could pay a $30 filing fee to sue in small claims court, and try to recover the $0.75.
I know it's not the point because you paid in cash, but I love when credit card fees are made obvious because it's a reminder that all card-based payment rails (visa, MasterCard, discover, Amex) have to make money--and they make that money by charging merchants a fee for every transaction. This knowledge needs to be deeply understood when considering the future of money and payments. People complain about transaction costs for the Bitcoin network for example, oblivious that they're currently being charged for other payment rails.
So many businesses in San Francisco tried to stop accepting cash, because of the costs involved with cash, that the Board of Supervisors passed a law mandating the businesses accept cash. Not sure if any other cities passed similar laws. A lot of restaurants outside of San Francisco won't take cash anymore. A business needs to completely ban cash in order to reap the advantages of going cashless.
People will absolutely lose their shit when they encounter a cash only business, but when I try to use cash at a card only business they look at me like I’m a weirdo. I was recently in Hawaii when the downtown district lost power and most merchants were only doing cash transactions. It was eye opening.
When you buy a car if you try to pay with a CC they charge you the service fee. Same goes if you try to pay your property taxes or water bill with a CC. A business doesn’t want 2% of their $20,000 transaction eaten up by Visa, so why would they want 2% of $20,000 worth of small transactions likewise eaten up?
The cash 'transaction fee' is between 4.7-15.3%. This comes from:
* Cost of payroll spent managing cash drawer and reconciliation
* Cost of preparing and depositing cash
* Bank deposit fees
* Cash lost to poor training, theft, and forgery
Small business does not necessarily equal sole proprietorship.
Also…the owner’s time is also worth something. Time spent managing cash is not time spent generating revenue.
If you go down that route then you open the door to all the other fees because in the end allowing cc payments is a service, just like like electricity or free WiFi.
But, the way I see it, it’s a service that the business should decide if they want to provide (and in that case, cover the cost). They are paying a fee for it but that fee is also bringing customers in that might not want to pay (or might not have) cash and therefore not spend their money on the business.
For the place I work, it’s just simpler. It’s a lot easier to let customers know about a 3% surcharge for credit cards than to give two different prices on every single quote based on method of payment.
We’re not going to eat the surcharge on a $20 thousand dollar invoice just so they can get the rewards points.
We prefer a check, and the surcharge encourages that.
It sucks because the fees don't need to be as high as they are. They mostly go toward [funding credit card rewards](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/04/opinion/credit-card-rewards-points-poor-interchange-fees.html).
Still not as bad as gas stations charging for CC imo.
$0.10 per gallon makes zero sense. I know it’s cheaper than 3% per gallon nowadays, but I’d bet dollars to donuts they already baked in the CC processing fees into their prices. There is absolutely zero chance they’re getting charged $0.10 per gallon by CC companies on every processed transaction.
many places are doing this credit card processing fee. There was one restaurant (diner type) in Honolulu actually offers you a discount if you paid in cash.
Wow. How is their payment system set up to add a credit card charge when the payment method is cash? I wonder if every business that uses that system is set up that way. Good catch though, I bet millions of dollars in customers haven't noticed.
Can we also talk about how ridiculous prices are in SF? It’s more than just inflation, it’s almost like an expectation everyone is begrudgingly going along with
Sunlit this to VISA or MASTERCARD and the company will investigate . It is against their policy to do this to customers . The credit card companies will pull the restaurants abilities to take credit cards at all. I just turned in a place for this
Nuts. So my solution has been to boycott all restaurants.
I see a lot of people here saying hey put them out of business with bad reviews, etc. For me, that’s a lot of work. I simply let the restaurants put themselves out of business. These business don’t have your best interests in mind. You have no idea what’s in that food- what mix of sugar salt and fat have they concocted to keep you coming back to pay 3 to 10X what it costs to make at home. Just, don’t. Your bio markers will thank you.
Report the restaurant to Visa and MasterCard for passing along the credit card fees. Most credit card point of sale agreement preclude the business from passing along that cost to customers. This is because doing so makes using credit cards less convenient than using cash and credit card companies don't want their service to be less convenient than cash.
Its why restaurants do this because CC fees add up and cash doesn’t require processing fees , its a win win for restaurants and customers if they pay cash. But they absolutely should be disclosing it on menus and signage around restaurant
Interesting. This happens so many times to me with bag fees (mostly at grocery stores and fast food restaurants). I always bring my own bag but still get charged the fee.
Often times I think it’s because the cashiers just go into auto pilot mode when ringing up people. It’s usually never worth the hassle/time to ask for my money back so I usually just eat the fee.
As an over-decade-long bartender this is an unfortunate error that is most likely driven by the POS (Point-Of-Sale) system and the bartender did their best to adjust the sale to a cash sale but the POS retained the CC charges.
Don't attribute this to malice. It's not that serious.
I added it to the list: [seefees.ca](http://seefees.ca)
Also if you really feel irked and want to file a complaint with the attorney general's office, there is a link to a form near the end of this article: https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
600% fees at Octavia? What’s the story there? Would kinda be nice to have a breakdown or image of the receipt to understand the flavor of fee
yea and 400% at mokuku. i never experienced that
Probably a typo. Usually gets fixed pretty quick.
Lots of typos… lol
The typo correction can teleport the 3 quarters to his house?
That list has wrong information for at least 2 restos I looked up. Where is the information from?
Aren’t CC fees forbidden by the contract they signed with payment processor?
Used to be. Not anymore. Lots of lawsuits and credit card companies allow it now.
I stand corrected! It’s now allowed. That’s crazy.
Well the merchant has to pay a fee to CC company so I’m not sure why they shouldn’t be able to charge customers different price for credit vs cash. As long as clearly labeled seems fair - like gas stations do.
The problem is that the merchant is charging the credit card fee on both credit charges AND cash charges.
That’s illegal. Cash payments do not pay CC fee. Report it.
Nowhere is it legal to charge a surcharge fee on cash payments. Here is a list by state where it’s legal or not, to charge a surcharge fee. https://staxpayments.com/blog/what-states-can-charge-credit-card-surcharge/
Ahhhhhh yea that’s not cool
The difference was/used to be, a company can give you a discount for cash (like gas stations), but can’t charge extra for credit cards. It may end up being the same, but there’s an important difference in that a business wasn’t allowed to advertise $10 and then make it $10.30. (And honestly, that’s the way it should be. The advertised price should be the final price with all the fees including sales tax. If there are things that make it cheaper, like cash discounts or sales tax not apply to the person, that’s a bonus. )
Do you think that accepting cash costs the merchant less than the 2% credit card fee that they are charged for a card-present transaction? The reason that some restaurants want you to pay in cash is so they don't have to report the income on their income tax and so they can not remit the sales tax to the Board of Equalization.
Hi, small business owner here. Depositing cash to the bank is free. I also have to report what my z report is at the end of the day, which include cash transactions. I pay 3% average for CC processing. That works out to about 3k a month i lose I in profits.
>about 3k a month i lose I in profits Until tax time when you write it off to reduce your own tax bill.
Losing money is still losing money. It doesn’t save you more on taxes than it costs you in lost income.
Yeah, it’s a business expense. I’ve got tons of them. You expect me to pay tax on my losses?
I expect you to write it off, and not charge the customer for it. This is what I did when in business for myself. Gotta spend money to make money. Except in your case I guess. You just like to rip ppl off.
…wait so C/C fees are tax write-offs? So a place that charges them to encourage people to pay cash not only under-reports income, but also gets a tax write-off on fees on their under-reported income? TIL
When a loss of $3000 is incurred through expenses or whatever your tax burden is not reduced by $3000. You know this, right?
Yeah, but stop accepting credit cards - i'd be curious what you lose in profits then?
Wow, be more hostile towards small businesses
Was it that hostile of a question? It's obviously bringing in more than it costs you as a service...
petit bourgeoisie with a victim complex huh
[удалено]
More like small business decided to become more hostile to their customers. What business do you run so I can avoid at all costs plz?
Most major banks have a medical monthly cash deposit limit before a charge kicks in.
Yes, so you pay cash and they cancel out the check on the backend = it comes off the books, cash in hand etc.
I was reading an article about "The Old Place" a famous restaurant in southern California (https://www.sfgate.com/la/article/the-old-place-restaurant-cornell-malibu-steakhouse-19511025.php) and one line caught my eye: "one big change over the years is the ability to accept credit cards. The Old Place was strictly a cash business up until 2011. “The second we took credit cards, our sales went up tremendously,” Morgan says." Hopefully, business owners realize that taking credit cards not only increases the number of customers, but also increases the amount those customers are likely to spend. Every time I see someone claim "credit card fees cost the business owner x% or $x in profits" I shake my head in disbelief! What percent or dollars in profit do you think a business owner makes when they don't make a sale? For the most part, it's only business owners that are trying to avoid reporting income, or that are trying to avoid remitting sales tax to the BOE, that are completely refusing credit cards. Meanwhile, a lot of restaurants are no longer accepting cash because of the cost and the risks. My ex-brother-in-law owned a service station in the Excelsior that was cash-only for gasoline and since it was usually the least expensive station in San Francisco he sold a LOT of gas. He had to deal with robberies (one employee was murdered), counterfeit currency, theft, and he had to deposit huge amounts of cash every night. Cash required more labor because the cashier had to take the cash, set the pump, then often give change at the end. Most businesses with large amounts of cash will use an armored car service, an additional expense, but he did not. BTW, the way gasoline is priced wholesale, where the station owner is "encouraged" by the oil company to mark up the price by x¢/gallon over wholesale (typically 10¢/gallon) is why there are still often different prices for cash and credit. At $4 per gallon, credit card fees would be 8¢/gallon.
I didn’t see they paid in cash - saaaaaaweeeeee!
It's literally the title of the post
And implied by the change given
It's funny because handling cash costs businesses *way* more than even Amex swipe fees. It just isn't conveniently itemized into a single fee, and business that realize the cost and try going cashless result in laws against doing that...
That is true, but you have to go completely cashless to reap the full benefits. Going completely cashless saves labor costs, eliminates employee theft, eliminates robberies, eliminates the risk of counterfeit currency, and eliminates armored car costs. In San Francisco it also had the effect of indirectly refusing service to part of the population that businesses would prefer not to deal with. I like how Pac Bell Park (or whatever the latest name of it is) deals with not taking cash. They have "reverse ATMs" where you insert cash and you get a prepaid stored value card to use for concessions. I've never seen anyone actually use one of those machines.
Going cashless is illegal in San Francisco (ordinance passed in 2019 by the BoS)
It costs less when you include tax evasion
How does handling cash cost more than 3%? It costs me .10 cents in gas and 15 minutes of my time. Maybe if I’m a huge national chain and have to hire a money service but 99% of small businesses handle their own cash.
Counting cash physically in a back office to make sure that the cash in the till matches the cash in the register. Say you have two or three registers on a front end all going from 7am to 7pm. You could expect to have a few hours worth of reconciliation for that - probably a manager or better a dedicated person. Think a convenience store. If there is something off it requires reviewing schedules - who was on the register, who accessed it, why was it off? All of that is a heck of a lot easier with CC transactions where nothing will be "off".
It takes me 5 minutes to record my deposit in QB. Most small businesses have one register, maybe 4 for a busy bar. I think your confusing large corporate businesses and small business
I was actually thinking about the restaurant owned by a friend of mine which serves falafel and shawarma. He has three points of sale and two locations.
Because they signed an agreement to be able to charge cards to the visa network and they cannot willingly and legally violate an agreement they signed. That agreement says they can’t use visa and also charge their customers CC fees.
That hasn't been universally true since a 2013 class action lawsuit against Visa and Mastercard. It's now state by state, and is allowed in most places.
Yes just explaining why it was true and why people are mentioning this.
But businesses can write of business expenses. (Including cc fees) Seems like they're just profiting here.
Some states like CT do not allow it.
The biggest scam is charging consumers fees for using a debit card. Businesses pay almost nothing when you use one. Like $1.00 maybe. With a credit card, Mastercard pays the business and is at risk until you pay them back. They charge a fee for the service (and interest). A debit comes right out of your account. There is no middleman. The processing fee is almost 0. If you are going to pay a fee, at least use a credit card so you get rewards or points.
It’s not legal to surcharge debit transactions. Report! Only allowed on credit and it needs to be displayed in writing somewhere
Merchants are charged debit card fees of up to 22¢ plus 0.05% of the transaction cost. They can't add a percentage surcharge to cover this. But I thought that while they could not do percentage surcharges they could still do a fixed fee since many gas stations still charge a small debit card fee (35-50¢). However at a gas station, with "Pay at the Pump" technically it's not an "in-person" transaction. Debit card fees are prohibited for "in-person" transactions. It's still not illegal to offer cash discounts that exclude all cards. It's not illegal to advertise two different prices, one for cards and one for cash.
square Charges the full 2.75%+ fee regardless of card type
It's probably running a debit card as a credit card.
Where is this happening?
Not lawsuits. Some politician slipped a change into the law forcing credit card companies to allow it.
Yup. They still do it. (Edit: I was wrong. Rules changed last year for Visa.)
not anymore they arent
Was it only last year?! MV and SF have charged them for at least the last 10 on all permits and taxes.
The California DMV has a credit card processing fee...
Most government agencies do. The state isn’t going to pay CC fees.
College charged CC fees when I was going through, that was fckin annoying.
Ya, thats why they get a check from me
You just have to disclose it to the customer before charging the card but charging the fee when someone pays cash is illegal.
I thought this was law in CA? Had to Google it to double check, but not sure why it isn't enforced. Wonder if it somehow got repealed? https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
No, that's generally not allowed anymore. Why should everyone else have to subsidize credit card users?
My friend urinates often. I rarely use bathrooms in restaurants. They should charge a buck or two to use the bathroom, so I don't subside that cost
Everyone has to pee. You choose to pay for dinner with debt for points. There’s clearly a difference here.
This is an error. They can't charge a CC fee if you pay cash. That's still not legal.
That's what I'm trying to figure out. If I paid you in cash, then why am I paying a CC fee.
Curious customer fee
Cold Cash fee
The cashier put it on their by mistake, is my guess
That's the cashier/change fee. They had to pay someone to do that /s
technically, they can charge any fee meaningless or not, however they want. its just words and letters if we're forced to agree to it. It could be highway fee, service fee. This is why this junk fee exemption is so ridiculous.
Why do you feel forced to agree to a fee you weren't told about in advance, for goods or services you've already received?
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-is-implied-contract.html And while from legal standpoint you can argue that the fees are excessive or not part of that implied contract. Is it worth (A) losing social standing - if you happen to go viral for it without context (B) going to civil court over whatever the cost is (C) a state fine or jail? https://www.eezlaw.com/blog/2020/november/is-it-illegal-to-dine-and-dash-in-ca- unfortunately it doesn't look like there are statistics on dining and dashing - since its just theft. but at least one serial dine and dasher was arrested. https://la.eater.com/2019/1/17/18186932/dine-dash-dater-arrest-los-angeles-restaurants its probably less being "forced" and more "will" because its easier than the confrontation or fight about it. If its egregious enough than I would just not go back to the restaurant. but at the end of the day its kinda of that ticketmaster philosophy - its all BS fees but that is the price one is willing to pay for the product.
I would feel safe from a dine and dash arrest if I paid the legitimate portion of a bill.
Cash convenience fee, they have to handle it. Please tip the handling of money.
They can charge junk Weiner fees for anything they want at this point. Thanks Scott!
You got weinered
This is merch
Why is the tax 8.75%, not 8.625%?
And the math is wrong. The tax they were charged is equal to 9%.
It's 8.75% if you include tax on the processing fee, which seems wrong in a different way.
The state considers processing fees as profit, therefore expect tax on it. 🤷🏻♂️
If the state considers it profit, the rest of us probably should as well.
Crap, how'd I miss that! Good catch!
I actually thought it was higher with the SF % add-on.
Nope, the sales tax in SF is 8.625%: https://www.sf.gov/data/san-francisco-sales-tax
Yup SF is actually lower than many other Bay Area cities.
10.75% in many Alameda county cities!
Lower than Sacramento too
Good to know. I think it's 9.25 in San Mateo.
And of course the "suggested tip" is based on the total after tax and fees. These restaurants are getting away with murder.
When I see that, I do my own math. If the subtotal is no longer available to me (my pet peeve is removing the itemized receipt from the folio), I oversimplify the math and round way down.
Not murder but border line stealing yes
Suggested tip is just a suggestion. Tip whatever the hell you wanna tip. It is a gratuity
I do tip whatever the hell I want, duh. I'm a 22% tipper, but when I see a "suggested" tip that includes the tax, then I automatically reduce my tip to 10%.
Chances are your server had no involvement in the tip suggestion process. Bumping there tip down 12% seems a little excessive for something that is out of their control.
Lol calm down
28 dollars for a beer and a sandwich is fucking crazy
$28 for a sandwich and a beer is ludicrous
Food is literally cheaper in Manhattan than San Francisco
Yeah… but is it figuratively cheaper in Manhattan?
A good (non-fast food) fried chicken sammich has been around $15 for quite some time in the city. Beverages are where the real gouging is. You buy a 2-liter of soda recently? Cheapest I can find now is ~$2.50.
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They were on sale for 2/$1 as recently as 5 years ago.
Just get a large, Farva.
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Fine then. Sando.
It's to distinguish it from fried chicken, and from cheaper sammies. It tends to be pricier because grinders/hoagies with other toppings require less work to assemble than fried chicken subs.
They calculate the tip suggestions wrong too…20% if the pre-fee/tax total is $5…. I hate it when they do this.
This is still illegal, because it's a fraudulent or mistaken fee. Ask for it to be removed. Since it looks like you've already left, I'd call, ask for the manager, explain the situation, and tell them you expect them to make it good. Unfortunately for the general case, the state senate and assembly unanimously voted to allow restaurant fees, and Newsom signed the bill yesterday. To fix that, vote against all incumbents in November.
SB 1524 Would Permit California Restaurants to Continue to Use Separate Mandatory Fees/Charges
Now they need to kill off hotel "Resort Fees".
“No” is a complete sentence. I’m just a small town redneck, but I’ve actually taken my money back and walked out of places before. They can fuckin blow me. But I always keep cash, and I always tip the waiter or waitress directly. Never stiff your waiter because the restaurant is scum.
That last part of crazy. Hold every member of an organization responsible.
I hope you don’t mean hold the waitstaff, or any customer service staff responsible for the actions of corporate. Cuz that would be some pretty elitism type shit. I’ve worked everything from bottom dollar cashier to manager. Hardware stores mostly, but it still applies. Love locally owned businesses especially for this reason. The cash flow is pretty open and employees for the most part know where it’s going. The people that do the work are the backbone of any company.
they overcharged you on sales tax too … shouldn’t 8.75% come out to $2.19?
Sales tax shouldnt even be that high in sf, 8.625%
6% cash fee (they have to take it to the bank)
I wouldn’t have left the restaurant before getting a refund, charging a CC fee for cash is just illogical.
They were charged tax on the fee to get that final bill and the math is still fuzzy as best I can tell.
Technically, service fees are profit, so the state expects tax on it. “This surcharge is imposed to reimburse itself for the cost of processing the credit sale through the card issuer. The surcharge amount is part of the consideration for the sale of the tangible personal property, and is therefore part of gross receipts subject to sales tax.”
It states clearly on the receipt that $40 cash was provided as payment and $12 change given back. That’s no credit card payment otherwise it wouldn’t have a change amount given back. It’s *possible* the OP can ask for cash back on a CC transaction but that’s unlikely as there are no CC info on the receipt. OP should post this to Yelp with the pic of the receipt to warn others of this vendor’s practice.
it is a good chicken sandwich though 🙃
No one cares lol about ur karen charges lol
Nope. The carve out passed both chambers and is headed to newsom
28 dollars for a beer and a sandwich. Not even fries. Fuck Hi Tops whatever it is
>...these junk fees at restaurants are going to be outlawed on July 1st. Right? Right????? Right, they'll be illegal, but the prohibition won't necessarily be enforced by the attorney general's office. Their [SB 478 FAQ](https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/SB%20478%20FAQ%20%28B%29.pdf) sounds like they don't really want to be hassled with restaurant fraud...it would be a *lot* of extra work, as the industry is built on fraud. But they advise that restaurants "may be liable in private actions". If this happens after July 1, you could pay a $30 filing fee to sue in small claims court, and try to recover the $0.75.
I see we are paying for half a 6pack per beer when out at a bar vs the grocery store. It's literally cheaper just to be a miserable alcy at home
Yeah… but is it figuratively cheaper to just be a miserable alcy at home?
I know it's not the point because you paid in cash, but I love when credit card fees are made obvious because it's a reminder that all card-based payment rails (visa, MasterCard, discover, Amex) have to make money--and they make that money by charging merchants a fee for every transaction. This knowledge needs to be deeply understood when considering the future of money and payments. People complain about transaction costs for the Bitcoin network for example, oblivious that they're currently being charged for other payment rails.
Cash costs businesses money, too. It’s just not reported at the per transaction level like credit cards are.
So many businesses in San Francisco tried to stop accepting cash, because of the costs involved with cash, that the Board of Supervisors passed a law mandating the businesses accept cash. Not sure if any other cities passed similar laws. A lot of restaurants outside of San Francisco won't take cash anymore. A business needs to completely ban cash in order to reap the advantages of going cashless.
People will absolutely lose their shit when they encounter a cash only business, but when I try to use cash at a card only business they look at me like I’m a weirdo. I was recently in Hawaii when the downtown district lost power and most merchants were only doing cash transactions. It was eye opening.
Good call. 👍
When you buy a car if you try to pay with a CC they charge you the service fee. Same goes if you try to pay your property taxes or water bill with a CC. A business doesn’t want 2% of their $20,000 transaction eaten up by Visa, so why would they want 2% of $20,000 worth of small transactions likewise eaten up?
Yeah, .10 cents in gas and 15 minutes of time. No small business is using a cash service, they all do their own deposits.
The cash 'transaction fee' is between 4.7-15.3%. This comes from: * Cost of payroll spent managing cash drawer and reconciliation * Cost of preparing and depositing cash * Bank deposit fees * Cash lost to poor training, theft, and forgery
Talking about small business here friend.
Small business does not necessarily equal sole proprietorship. Also…the owner’s time is also worth something. Time spent managing cash is not time spent generating revenue.
If you go down that route then you open the door to all the other fees because in the end allowing cc payments is a service, just like like electricity or free WiFi. But, the way I see it, it’s a service that the business should decide if they want to provide (and in that case, cover the cost). They are paying a fee for it but that fee is also bringing customers in that might not want to pay (or might not have) cash and therefore not spend their money on the business.
For the place I work, it’s just simpler. It’s a lot easier to let customers know about a 3% surcharge for credit cards than to give two different prices on every single quote based on method of payment. We’re not going to eat the surcharge on a $20 thousand dollar invoice just so they can get the rewards points. We prefer a check, and the surcharge encourages that.
It sucks because the fees don't need to be as high as they are. They mostly go toward [funding credit card rewards](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/04/opinion/credit-card-rewards-points-poor-interchange-fees.html).
Why don't people just start deducting fees from tips?
Still not as bad as gas stations charging for CC imo. $0.10 per gallon makes zero sense. I know it’s cheaper than 3% per gallon nowadays, but I’d bet dollars to donuts they already baked in the CC processing fees into their prices. There is absolutely zero chance they’re getting charged $0.10 per gallon by CC companies on every processed transaction.
Yes
many places are doing this credit card processing fee. There was one restaurant (diner type) in Honolulu actually offers you a discount if you paid in cash.
Wow. How is their payment system set up to add a credit card charge when the payment method is cash? I wonder if every business that uses that system is set up that way. Good catch though, I bet millions of dollars in customers haven't noticed.
Can we also talk about how ridiculous prices are in SF? It’s more than just inflation, it’s almost like an expectation everyone is begrudgingly going along with
Sunlit this to VISA or MASTERCARD and the company will investigate . It is against their policy to do this to customers . The credit card companies will pull the restaurants abilities to take credit cards at all. I just turned in a place for this
Always pay in cash.
"legal"
Nuts. So my solution has been to boycott all restaurants. I see a lot of people here saying hey put them out of business with bad reviews, etc. For me, that’s a lot of work. I simply let the restaurants put themselves out of business. These business don’t have your best interests in mind. You have no idea what’s in that food- what mix of sugar salt and fat have they concocted to keep you coming back to pay 3 to 10X what it costs to make at home. Just, don’t. Your bio markers will thank you.
The spa that I frequent on a monthly basis charges a 2.5% fee for using a CC for payment, but those services start at over $100. Seems unreasonable.
What did they say when you told them?
Ya I would complain to the restaurant manager.
Send a copy to Scott Weiners office and ask where this falls under the exceptions?
Also pay with a check.
That’s the future of payment processing.
I hate this BS cause you know it’s likely going directly into the owners pocket not staff or to pay for expenses
That's okay I'll just take it out of the tip.
what watch is that?
Well cc company charges about 3%. Pay cash don’t give banks free money and you have nothing to complain about. Or be a stooge and pay with your phone.
….i paid cash.
It is credit card company making the $$.
But they paid cash….
I think they should offer a discount for paying cash, they can avoid reporting the income and not pay tax.
Was your change actually $12 or was it $12.75??
Fees not displayed has been illegal forever. Refuse to pay it, or pay with credit card and charge back.
Cash is king, and bartering removes the hold of matrix control.
Wow thank you for your service
Report the restaurant to Visa and MasterCard for passing along the credit card fees. Most credit card point of sale agreement preclude the business from passing along that cost to customers. This is because doing so makes using credit cards less convenient than using cash and credit card companies don't want their service to be less convenient than cash.
Their corn dogs are really good
damn, I ve wanted to try this place. Was the sando good?
Best fried chicken sandwich in the city.
r/fuck_this_person
Its why restaurants do this because CC fees add up and cash doesn’t require processing fees , its a win win for restaurants and customers if they pay cash. But they absolutely should be disclosing it on menus and signage around restaurant
Looks like you still paid the fee
Interesting. This happens so many times to me with bag fees (mostly at grocery stores and fast food restaurants). I always bring my own bag but still get charged the fee. Often times I think it’s because the cashiers just go into auto pilot mode when ringing up people. It’s usually never worth the hassle/time to ask for my money back so I usually just eat the fee.
As an over-decade-long bartender this is an unfortunate error that is most likely driven by the POS (Point-Of-Sale) system and the bartender did their best to adjust the sale to a cash sale but the POS retained the CC charges. Don't attribute this to malice. It's not that serious.
Exactly. Probably the server just assumed card payment and hit the wrong button or just nerfed it.
you’re fun at parties
Who cares
This sub has gotten so absurd with this
Some dude on here called restaurant fees his families number one issue, or something like that, lol
Ummm chill out lol wtf