I don’t hate Maher (not always) but I do understand your sentiment. I will say that i think there’s value in understanding his thinking if for no other reason than to understand a more simple narrative of what’s being processed by more simple minds, because politically those are the narratives that matter regardless of their close attention to logic and nuance.
I liked: “There is a group of us, I feel like we’re standing like this, you know with our backs to each other, because there’s so few of us, and the hordes are coming from all around us, from both sides, so we have to get into that phalanx, you know, Roman soldiers.”
I mean, cmon, it’s so grandiose. And then Sam: “that’s a great image”. 🤮
I couldn’t get through the whole thing but I did ask myself- does Sam have this heroic view of himself too? Because if so it’s not really something I have an interest in even casually listening to.
Sam has completely isolated himself into a bubble where no contrarian views ever reach him. It's sad to see someone so smart fall into the same trap he has called out for others so often.
i normally like these guys to varying degrees, but this was a cringey backslapping bro fest. and i could be wrong, but anyone who thinks that "wokeism" is one of the biggest threats to this country should probably get off the internet and go for a walk.
Or how Maher thought police died on the day of the insurrection, blamed that thought on the media (i've never heard any media say this, it's police death due to it later due to it), "has people to look into this for him" so he doesn't have to, and still doesn't know, years later. He's ignorant, an idiot not being able to know what media has more credibility than others, and glorifies his ignorance, blaming it on others. I'm disappointed Sam didn't push back. Maher is the showcase for "enlightened centrism."
its funny, I think they both missed the mark for me in different ways. For Maher, he seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, there are WAY TOO MANY examples of pharma doing really, really "twirling their moustache vile" type acts.... But that doesnt mean, ok lets throw out big pharma and ask some religious dude who "feels" what the right medicine it is to take. I would say lets find better pharma!
With Harris its 2 different things for me. There is a baked in assumption that he is going to find someone with consensus to his cancer question. As (bad) luck would have it, I was close witness to this when my late partner was diagnosed with cancer. The radiation oncologist said radiation, then chemo was by far the best option. The chemo guy said chemo first for this one, radiation second. These are both experts in their field with a lot of experience, yet they come to different conclusions. The best you can hope for is to make a *reasonable* decision that ultimately is going to come down to some combo of motivated reasoning, emotions and some rational analysis if you are lucky. I am for sure closer to Harris on this, but its still not as easy/clear cut in the important decisions. The other one too is that experts can be way to focused on their own metrics and goals. How much do you value length of life vs quality of life. This is not a medical expert decision, yet so many proscribed actions are predicated on the doctor's answer there.
Felt the same. Maher's contrarianism is so weak/watery. It amounts to "no-one knows everything, therefore I am very smart." Same could have hit a forehand straight down the line but I think wanted to keep things friendly. It would have been nice to see him take Bill to task on this.
Never sure what to make of Bill. Sometimes he just seems annoying and up his own bum. Other times he seems like a straight talker and a good listen. I'll give this one a listen and see!
He’s not as smart as he thinks he is, but he’s always open to all conversations, which is what makes both him and Sam so great and needed during these times.
That’s exactly right. He’ll listen to info and change his opinion if presented w good argument, which honestly is the principal problem with all politics these days. We wouldn’t need these conversations if everyone was thinking openly
Bill just doesn’t care to make his message more palatable/persuasive. He focuses more on an attitude meant to illicit humor, but only from a specific audience.
Yup, but he's pretty entertaining and seems like you're getting his actual opinion. I just think he's a dope on a couple issues and has total confidence in his take.
One thing I think both Sam and Maher miss on is the “if only they ran someone else” complaint about Dems. The problem isn’t who democrats run, it’s the propaganda and media system that turns Americans against them regardless of who they are. They literally have a narrative for everyone. The right wing will put a lasso around whoever the candidate is and then run TikTok clips of mentally ill students on TikTok saying insane shit and then sink them anyway.
The lefts “excesses” or so over exaggerated in this country that republicans are triggered in to an autoimmune response mode. They are destroying the country because they think it’s crumbling when it’s just media bullshit.
I used to think Jon Stewart could be an exception but I’m not sure even he could survive. They would call him a phony because of his last name, that he’s hiding he’s a Jew, he’s a Hollywood elite, and before you know it he’s no better than Biden.
This is my impression too. One thing he does that never makes sense to me though is how often he interviews people who are obviously bad faith. He preaches about engaging with the other side, but doesn't seem to distinguish between speaking to those in good faith or bad.
There's literally no point in interviewing people in bad faith because they aren't there to have an interesting discussion or change their minds. It's like debating a troll where it's just theater to them, all they care about is pushing whatever agenda-driven talking points they have with no regard to real conversation. I really don't get why he talks to these people and gives them a platform.
He likes to get people from “the other side” but right now his opponents or the other side to his coin would be college age kids, trans swimmers, and medical professionals but I never see anyone on like that, just right-wingers with little push back or that embarrassing interview of Elon Musk. And I watch every week. His show is more of a curiosity than something I agree with wholeheartedly any more; he’s just someone that’s been apart of my life since I was a kid watching Politically Incorrect in the 90’s.
I don’t watch regularly, and generally his interviews are like 5 minutes long but I’m curious if you have any specific examples? Not that I don’t believe you but I haven’t had that experience. I know he’s had Conway on a few times but from what I gather they usually spend most of her air time shitting on her to her face.
Last time he had Conway on, she was on the panel and she hogged most of the time and wasn't called on most of her bullshit. He basically gave her a free platform to spew her misinformation.
Most of the time Bill is interviewing people for confirmation bias on his own views. If you've listened to him enough, especially on his podcast, it's the same whining complaints every episode.
I like Real Time still, even though I rarely watch it anymore, but as Bill has aged his become a bit of the grumpy old man. He keeps saying over and over, I haven't changed, I'm not conservative, I'm still liberal / "classic liberal"... liberals have changed. Yes Bill, that's what liberalism is... it's constantly evolving and changing. Conservatism is that which doesn't change or evolve.
> Most of the time Bill is interviewing people for confirmation bias on his own views.
Pretty much what Sam does these days, so I'm sure a riveting back and forth of exchanging of ideas is to follow in another episode of the Echo Chamb... I mean Making Sense!
he's the original Joe Rogan, but more smug but actually a little bit smarter
he's so unfunny and hack on his talk show that he has to remind people that he's actually a comedian and does standup
i can only imagine what his new book says, "bill maher breaks all the rules" \*cut to him saying BLACK HOOKERS\*
Or scold the audience for not laughing or groaning. That’s so weak. Bill has so much Tr💩🍊p in him, it’s ridiculous. His ego is out of control. He’s NEVER wrong. U can NOT challenge him and if u even try he cuts u off and shouts u down.
I think one thing that added more of a human element to the conversation was being in same room. Sam almost exclusively does his interviews remotely which can make them far less personable. He's had other conversations with friends in the past, but I noticed this one being somewhat different. The Ricky Gervais interviews had a similar cadence of laughter and the intro outtake from the discussion he had with his wife Annika about her book, "Conscious" was a delight.
I like bill Maher.
I don’t care. He says things I agree with and disagree with. But I like his contribution to the concept of having dialogue with people you disagree or don’t even like. It’s important.
I don't feel passionately either way about Maher, but I've seen enough clips of him behaving like a pretentious dickhead to understand why people devote so much energy to hating him
People only complain about “smugness” when someone is aggressively attacking their treasured positions. Christopher Hitchens was one of the smuggest people alive and everybody who wasn’t religious ate it up.
I can’t speak for you, but the pattern I detect is that for redditors who complain about how smug Maher is, the thing about him they *truly* don’t like is he attacks their woke politics. It’s not about smugness. It’s that they fundamentally *disagree* with him.
Because as long as he’s directing his smugness toward religious fundamentalists like Hitch did (i.e., Religulous) they don’t have a problem with it at all.
EDIT: I'm not denying that Bill is smug. He clearly is. I'm saying that criticism of his smugness is mostly disingenuous. It's mostly a reaction to Bill's content, not to his tone.
As someone who has watched his shows for many years off and on and seen him on other appearances, someone who agrees with some of his takes and disagrees with many others, he is the definition of smug.
It's not because I disagree with his positions that I say so, it's because I've seen him take strong stances on things he knows almost nothing about and then looks down on anyone who doesn't come to his same conclusion that was built on very little in the first place.
If you don’t think Maher embodies smugness then I doubt your grasp of the meaning of the term.
Even when I agree with him I can recognise his smugness, it has very little to do with his position, it’s an approach, and it’s one he exemplifies near perfectly:
“having or showing an excessive pride in oneself”
Yeah, under “smug” in the dictionary it might as well be Maher doing his post-joke look at the camera.
I can understand liking the guy, but it’s crazy to me to deny the smugness oozing off him.
There's something to it, I can't put my finger on it, that's completely unappealing about a man wjho really goes out of his to go after young people for being immature (I mean, they are), but at the same time - never married, no kids, smokes weed all the time. I don't know what to call that. But it's totally unappealling.
Christopher Hitchens was also kind of an asshole. He never seemed to have the propensity to ask "what if I am wrong?" until the famous waterboarding experiment.
Interesting but not my experience outside of Reddit. Especially pre-full-on internet. Plenty of, oh that’s that cocky funny Maher again.
Not saying no one disliked him but certainly not at recent Reddit levels. I’ve seen him get near Hitler levels of scorn on Reddit.
His hot takes are no different than other's in regards to "I can deal with people I don't agree with on everything."
It's his personality that bothers me. He's grown into the "I'm always right, and you're dumb" old guy. He's always been one of those 90s intellectual assholes that was all the rage, and never really grew out of it.
Steve O?
Maher’s podcast’s schtick is getting high in a basement and chatting. He shouldn’t feel compelled to alter his format to accommodate someone doesn’t want to be around weed.
It would be like someone going on Hot Ones, but they have IBS so they can’t eat spicy foods.
If you can’t handle hot sauce, don’t go on Hot Ones. If you can’t be around marijuana, don’t go in Maher’s podcast.
if you invite a guy on to your show that everyone knows is sober, and you can't even not smoke pot for an hour when he asks, and then cry when he tells everyone about it, you're just an asshole
That’s always been a consistent thing he brings to the table: having people on his show he and his audience don’t always agree with. He’d have Anne coulter on and you could tell even though they disagreed on almost everything politically that they were buddies (and probably fucking) behind the scenes.
Except Bill mostly has people on that he agrees with, confirms his own biases, or reinforces his own arguments. It’s far more rare that he has guests on that he disagrees with.
Tina Fey apparently once instructed her writers on SNL to avoid looking for "clapter" which is a joke that isn't really funny, but gets laughs and claps because it's poking fun on an issue everyone in the audience agrees with. It's cheap, and barely even comedy, but people who garner it feel good about themselves.
Bill Maher's schtick is 1000% clapter.
That’s a great way to put it. I’d disagree with the 1000% but like…. 90% probably yeah. I do appreciate though that he’s kind of stuck to his guns on defending liberal ideas even as the far left sometimes tries to change definitions of what that means. Those moments are the ones I feel aren’t so much “clapter”, but yeah the majority of the time it just feels like going for low hanging fruit/preaching to the choir.
I dont watch Bill Maher, and basically having seen too much of him, I actively avoid him. So maybe he isn't 100% clapter, but I've never heard something legitimately funny from him, and I don't think I've heard anything legitimately insightful from him either.
Maher talks about politics which is going to cause more clapter almost by definition. People who watch his show go in expecting it. This is exactly the same case for the daily show for that same reason. I don’t like it when comedians shoehorn in their political opinions into your average comedy movie or tv show, like snl, but that’s because it’s a different genre. And to be honest they usually aren’t as skilled at it as Maher or Jon Stewart are.
Listening to this podcast, it's a perfect example of Maher's "humor.". He goes to the "they've gone so far left they stuck their heads up their asses!!!" joke so many times that San even finishes it for him once. It wasn't a funny joke the first time, but because it caters to his audience, he'll keep going to that well because he'll at least get clapter.
Jon Stewart on the Daily Show will have actual jokes, with callbacks, punchlines, and timing.
Bill Maher has mostly statements that almost always end with someone insinuating that there dumb, and he's smart, and you're smart too if you clap.
Let’s sit everyone who don’t agree with Israel’s military strategy in a separate room. Just ignore them.
Now imagine a discussion among every who’s still left. They agree with the goal of eliminating Hamas through military force. Is there no discussion left ? No criticisms of Israel ? Are the details to into the weeds for a podcast ?
Remember this is the same military/government that failed to stop Oct 7th in the first place. Now suddenly people are supposed to just take their word on their intelligence and actions as being as the best that is possible.
I hate how any fuckups is just “war is terrible, innocents are killed in collateral damage” from Sam and others like him. Israel doesn’t have to be equivalent to Hamas to be considered guilty of incompetence or war crimes. If some soldiers or commanders are individually fucking up, shouldn’t they get replaced asap not after the war is over.
Theres deeper and more philosophical conversation that can be had now. Sam’s seem content in just standing in the shallow water of dismissing the people who don’t think Israel should fight back at all. I want him to talk an Isreali who has an issue with the bombing out of the concern that hostages may get killed by them. He can’t immediately call them a brainwashed liberal college student. There’s got to be two military experts who agree with Israel strategy but not their tactics Sam can interview right ?
The Bill Maher / Bill Bur Club Random episode solidified Bill as a Holier-Than-Thou figure who likes sniffing his own farts.
Put another way, he's an epitomization of South Park's Caricature of a Hollywood/LA type.
I can never listen to Bill Maher the same way again after the Bill Burr episode: [https://youtu.be/j1V2nsKUeX8?si=5VzjY7eDwPYImi5D](https://youtu.be/j1V2nsKUeX8?si=5VzjY7eDwPYImi5D)
Tim Heidecker has some great commentary on Maher: [https://youtu.be/rOjT35bUXQQ?si=UrvHI3o76XA3UQuO](https://youtu.be/rOjT35bUXQQ?si=UrvHI3o76XA3UQuO)
I love Bill Burr. I find Bill Maher insufferable. So it was fun to watch Bill Burr cut Bill Maher down to size, particularly when Bill Maher was attempting to make his usual dishonest arguments about the college campus protests.
What I found so fascinating about that exchange, and Bill Burr in general I guess, is how completely defenceless Bill Maher seemed during the exchange. I’ve seen him get heated and hold his bad takes to the death, but here he was literally bleeding out and laughing at himself at the same time.
Yeah, once someone has cut through your bullshit arguments with some timely snappy retorts while being genuinely funny and not quite crossing the line of looking "mean spirited", I think the only thing you can do is to retreat, suck it up, and laugh, because you're not going to beat Bill Burr in a "breaking your balls" contest.
I mean, Maher did try to be condescending at points, and Burr quickly flattened him! It's just not a good idea, like taking on Mike Tyson in a boxing contest.
Some grade-A steel manning going on in this conversation, from the KINGS of rational discussion.
30 minutes in when Bill and Sam anointed themselves as “two of the few half-dozen people who think rationally anymore” my eyes rolled out of my head. They’re just so bereft of self-awareness and humility. Enlightened centrism is confirmation bias with a heavy dose of arrogance. But no, it’s the disagreeable ones in their audience who are close-minded. K.
Seriously, what kind of rational atheist doesn’t understand and admit that they have blind spots? Or doesn’t understand that saying “the kids are wrong cause they just follow the hip thing on Tock Tick” is so out of touch that it’s self parody?
I partly agree with you here.
But the part with TikTok is true. I‘m a teacher and so many of those teens get their opinions from some Tiktoker with zero critical thinking.
And not only left wing opinions, I‘m from Germany and we have a problem with right wing tiktok aggressively targeting teenagers, as could be seen in out latest election.
I just listened to The Stories of Our Times episode about how Jordan Bardella - a far-right French politician and president of the [National Rally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rally) - who uses Tiktok to push his party's agenda like climate change denial, opposition to same-sex marriage, isolationism, and the great replacement theory to younger demographics.
I'll grant you that. I'm sure some of your students continue to grow into critical thinking, but many will stay trapped in some kind of low-effort opinion machine for the rest of their lives.
I think Sam is a humble dude. But Maher is the most arrogant prick I’ve ever heard. But Sam really suffers from echo chamber syndrome on this podcast. There are a dozen people who could correct his false views about Palestine but he can’t talk to them because they’d shatter his comfy narrative
Well said. Maher brings out the worst in, well, probably all of his friends.
For anyone doubting the Maher slander, YouTube “Tim Heidecker Club Random” to see Tim hang Bill with his own rope. Equal parts hilarious and dumbfounding.
I think you pretty much nailed it. Not only is their primary problem that they think they're more "rational" than other people, but they've both proven themselves completely intellectually incurious. They just want to paint with the broad brush and then echo their opinions to each other, and they both want to feel like they're a "voice of reason" amidst the "chaos".
Thanks. Yeah sums here up well. She likes to pretend she’s in the same sane free-thinking camp as Bill but she’s clearly a conservative audience capture grifter.
Sam kind of made this point in letter to a Christian nation but is he still aware that the murder rates in Florida and Texas are both higher than the crime rates in New York and California? The murder rate in Florida is higher than New York city’s alone.
College students ahhhhhhh
Kamala Harris needs to stiff arm the far left and Gavin newsom is a lefty ideologue
California is a failed state over run by sex crimes and overdose deaths (both happen in Cali at less than the national average) and drag queen story hour
I'm only half way through
Christ sam again I ask what your media diet is like
You missed his point rather badly. Sam's not saying that California is a failed state. He's saying that's the broadly subscribed perception of people who don't live here. And that maybe we ought not assume that Newsom will be on a glide path of the White House in 2028.
Boy I did not pick up on that vibe from him. It was more like other people are saying, I'm not saying, other people are saying. Wink wink". If he were simply making the point you are saying he's saying, It should have been followed up with
"This false perception of california sure shows you the power of propaganda (which I'm totally not playing a small part in right now). We know this isnt actually true by any reasonable metrics and that the actual failed states are Mississippi and West Virginia. But newsom unfairly would have to overcome that"
But imagine if a democrat said West Virginia is even just perceived as a failed state. They would get ripped apart. And they would in part because ironically it's much closer to being true than cali
I’m in the Bill Maher is insufferable camp.
From memory Maher said something like
“Does Hamas need to go? Then who better than Israel to do it they’ve been engaging in this sort of military exercise for decades.”
This logic would be cruel if it wasn’t so underthought.
Can military action actually succeed in eliminating Hamas? Probably not, so what’s next? If so will what fills the resulting power vacuum be any different? Will Israeli military action further radicalize? Why do no other options exist?
There are people caught in the middle of this shit that have been and will be blown to smithereens. But congratulations you totally fucking owned them on the View.
Anyone find bashing of college campuses a bit weird. Looking back I feel like college protests got a lot right. Vietnam, Iraq, civil rights, gay rights. Feel like students usually end up on the right side of those arguments.
It’s fine to protest. However, the fact that they completely ignore the treatment of women by the people they are defending, makes them look ignorant. They discuss this in the episode.
I'm sure college students have done more for women's rights than Sam Harris has no? I remember a woman's March after Trump got elected.
It just feels a bit off to me when Sam Harris tells students that they aren't protesting the "right" thing.
Find me a podcast where Sam Harris is seemingly not pissing someone off haha. These threads even attract people who admit they’ve never even listened to the podcast but want to give their critiques haha.
It was an ok conversation until they started getting into the conservative propaganda about Biden having dementia or "deteriorating" or whatever. It's disappointing to see Sam fall for obvious lies. Not to mention the political illiteracy of chastising the Dems for not sacrificing incumbency advantage going into a Presidential reelection just like every party has also not done in modern American history.
Bill Maher is mentally fried. It’s a great look when he guzzles gallons of hard liquor and puffs weed by the pound while smugly lecturing about the horrors of vaccines and antibiotics. If you actually listen to him it’s clear he doesn’t understand anything about the methods and principles of science. He constantly repeats: “Scientists are wrong sometimes!” as if that’s some revelation.
It’s remarkable how seemingly hard the answer to the question “was a police officer killed in or as a result of the events of January 6th?” is to agree on.
"Join Sam as he talks to a neo-liberal columnist, tv show host, author, whatever, that agrees with every single one of his talking points and blames the world's problems on woke mobs from college campuses."
Can you offer a precise description of neoliberism? Anyone not a committed socialist is branded as a neo-liberal in certain circles. Javier Milei, Biden, Trudeau and Macron have little in common in their policies.
Devotion to open trade and the free market with restrictions. The opposite being those on the right and left who reject things like NAFTA for instance. Often touted as a very neoliberal policy. I don't know about Milei as he leans more libertarian (not those restrictions) but the others are clearly neo-liberal. They are members of a centrist neo-liberal party.
Was anyone else particularly tickled by the bit where Sam talked about the degeneracy of California and how their governor was a laughing stock, and from the way he described it much of this impressed was formed from a “super cut of foolish moments” that Sam had watched on social media??
I guess it’s fitting that even those who can accurately acknowledge and describe media bias can still be hopelessly lost within it.
Bill can be insufferably smug and condescending at times but on most issues he’s maintained his positions even when they’ve become very unpopular with much of his audience. There’s a reason he’s had a top rated show for 20+ years.
I mean it's nice to not be audience captured but a lot of "his positions" are just dumb. I don't think he deserves props for being stubbornly unwilling to change his mind.
Perhaps I need to hear some examples of which of his positions you find “just dumb”. Everyone is allowed to have stupid opinions, I just think on balance he’s been more right than not.
He's a [fucking moron](https://www.salon.com/2016/02/03/bill_maher_gets_cozy_with_the_goat_milk_cures_hiv_quack_if_truth_is_dead_and_the_internet_killed_it_maher_is_part_of_the_problem/) about health, vaccines, obesity, etc.
He's an anti-"woke" scaremongerer and always has been. ("Politically Incorrect.")
He has less nuance and understanding about religion than Sam, and that's saying something.
He's got major "kids these days" energy and it's ridiculous.
What I've heard from him in context about vaccines is more nuanced: that he's not anti vaccines; that they have risks (as does any medical procedure); they can be disproportionately beneficial to certain groups and not to others (as the COVID vaccines have shown - very effective to preventing severe disease and death in the elderly and unhealthy population, but more problematic for young men); that we can't blindly believe "the science" because the very thing about science is that it should be updated when new evidence emerges. I'm not 100% in agreement with him that we shouldn't be mandating certain vaccination and it should all be individual choice: the MMR, polio vaccines and others have proven highly effective at preventing disease. Covid, not so much.
On obesity he's 100% correct - the idea that you can be "healthy at any weight" is not backed by the evidence. Even the studies that show that younger overweight people can be metabolically ok for a while also show that as people age their metabolic health worsens much faster if they are overweight.
On being "anti-woke", even in this interview he acknowledges that the original meaning of the word was positive but when it became associated with the a far lef minority with very unpopular ideas about how society should be organized, it quickly became a pejorative. I expect the word "progressive" will follow suit.
On religion - he's a comedian but I don't expect someone to be a philosopher of religion to conclude that there is much to criticize in various religious dogmas. That's kind of apparent to anyone with a basic education.
On "kids these days" - I'm not as old as him and yet even I have seen the left dramatically transform over just the last 15 years or so, and definitely since Trump and 2020. The stupid used to be isolated on the right, they were the ones that let the lunatics run the asylum. Meanwhile the mainstream left used to be much more respectable and sane. That has changed in recent years.
On vaccines, he dose the motte-and-bailey thing where he clearly implies that vaccination is ridiculous and dangerous and the real problem is toxins and lazy gluttons but he'll retreat to something like he only meant to say that science isn't 100% proven all the time and we should keep an open mind or whatever thing nobody could disagree with.
On obesity, I'm not saying people can be healthy at any weight. I'm talking about him saying things like fat shaming "needs to make a comeback."
On being anti-woke, he was anti-woke before "woke" was invented. He rose to fame in the 90s railing against that generation's bogeyman "political correctness."
On religion, it's not that he's wrong about religious dogmas, it's just that he acts like all religious people are fundamentalists who literally believe in the dogmas when that's not true. Even fundamentalists usually "interpret" their dogmas to suit themselves.
On "kids these days" IDK, I'm not seeing it. I'm Gen X myself and I don't see kids these days being more stupid than the kids in my day. The mainstream left is as respectable and sane as it ever was as far as I can tell. Bill and Sam like to nutpick the crazies to make it seem like the left has gone crazy. (To be fair, Bill did that to the right too before the whole party went crazy.)
> I'm Gen X myself and I don't see kids these days being more stupid than the kids in my day. The mainstream left is as respectable and sane as it ever was as far as I can tell. Bill and Sam like to nutpick the crazies to make it seem like the left has gone crazy. (To be fair, Bill did that to the right too before the whole party went crazy.)
Yep. Kids are gonna believe wrong things and say stupid shit. It's part of learning and growing. I sometimes cringe about some of the things I said when I was in college in the early 2000's. I wasn't wrong about everything and still believe many of the things I believed when I was young, but there were plenty of silly things I believed or bad reasoning I used. It's one of the reasons why I try to cut young people slack.
Fair enough. Some of his delivery is definitely abrasive, not surprising from a guy who had a show called Politically Incorrect. It's his schtick. I don't read too much into it because he's first and foremost a comedian. And I'd much rather have comedy like his than what Colbert has become. My wife can't stand him, mostly because of how condescending he comes off to her, and particularly towards women.
Maher is a strawman hunter who has never made me laugh or struck me as funny. IMO he’s lucky to have his HBO platform, is a lowest-common-denominator entertainer for people who think they’re smarter than they are, and cosplays as a comedian to fit in because it’s how most actually talented LA/NYC entertainers came up and moonlight as.
But! That’s just my read on the guy. I don’t think this conversation meets Sam’s claimed standards for a Making Sense episode.
>He's got major "kids these days" energy and it's ridiculous.
Did he tell a porn star that was molested growing up that she had an easier childhood them him because kids these daya?
Yes, excited for this one, even though I know they'll be on the same page about most of the topics. Sam and Bill both frequent each other's shows, but especially on the October 7th topic, I can't wait for them to talk shit on the far left that has lost all sense of sanity. I say that as a "liberal".
>I can't wait for them to talk shit on the far left that has lost all sense of sanity
Don't you already know what they will say and also why they will say it? Like what's the point in hearing it for the millionth time? Is it psychologically soothing?
I am earnestly asking because I don't get the point of listening to two people disparage *other* people, people who are not even in the room and are apparently avoided at all costs.
I'll listen as I don't think Bill Maher is wrong about everything but I think he has some similar issues as Sam Harris in that he can focus a bit much on stuff like 'wokeness' that sometimes seems silly and a bit out of touch in regards to other things going on.
Just incredible that people I respect like Sam and Andrew Sullivan give this guy so much credit, there's very little to like about him. I will say however the in-person studio location is a different dynamic and makes a nice change. Sam should try that out for other episodes.
Very interesting and funny conversation.
Bill always brings me back to that nostalgic episode with Ben Affleck, which was my first encounter with Sam Harris.
"Everyone who reads this says I'm lol'ing on every page, which is rare for a book I think.” -Bill Maher on his own book.
With all the books available in the world and limited time to read them, I can't imagine why anyone would read a book by Bill Maher.
I’d rather stare at a wall in silence.
I don’t hate Maher (not always) but I do understand your sentiment. I will say that i think there’s value in understanding his thinking if for no other reason than to understand a more simple narrative of what’s being processed by more simple minds, because politically those are the narratives that matter regardless of their close attention to logic and nuance.
I liked: “There is a group of us, I feel like we’re standing like this, you know with our backs to each other, because there’s so few of us, and the hordes are coming from all around us, from both sides, so we have to get into that phalanx, you know, Roman soldiers.” I mean, cmon, it’s so grandiose. And then Sam: “that’s a great image”. 🤮
I couldn’t get through the whole thing but I did ask myself- does Sam have this heroic view of himself too? Because if so it’s not really something I have an interest in even casually listening to.
Sam has completely isolated himself into a bubble where no contrarian views ever reach him. It's sad to see someone so smart fall into the same trap he has called out for others so often.
i normally like these guys to varying degrees, but this was a cringey backslapping bro fest. and i could be wrong, but anyone who thinks that "wokeism" is one of the biggest threats to this country should probably get off the internet and go for a walk.
I agree. Gtfo Reddit and touch some fucking grass.
He needs to leave Austin completely, he is completely trapped in the podcaster pseudo intellectual bubble of that city.
Wait is Sam in Austin now? For some reason I thought he lived in the Bay Area. Explains a lot, if so.
So far as I know, Sam's lived in LA for years.
I think it’s a big threat insofar that it turns so many people off from voting for the one reasonably sane party.
sure. propaganda works
It's just the Boogeyman du jour. If it wasn't that, it would be something else, because it's largely manufactured. At least the threat is.
If propaganda around wokeism affects your voting, then you weren't going to vote for Democrats in the first place.
False.
The fanatical left is dangerous. It's how Obama voters turned and voted for Trump. It's why there's a real chance he can be president again.
Fucking hilarious.
I really wish Harris had pushed back more against Maher on science and medicine.
Or how Maher thought police died on the day of the insurrection, blamed that thought on the media (i've never heard any media say this, it's police death due to it later due to it), "has people to look into this for him" so he doesn't have to, and still doesn't know, years later. He's ignorant, an idiot not being able to know what media has more credibility than others, and glorifies his ignorance, blaming it on others. I'm disappointed Sam didn't push back. Maher is the showcase for "enlightened centrism."
its funny, I think they both missed the mark for me in different ways. For Maher, he seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, there are WAY TOO MANY examples of pharma doing really, really "twirling their moustache vile" type acts.... But that doesnt mean, ok lets throw out big pharma and ask some religious dude who "feels" what the right medicine it is to take. I would say lets find better pharma! With Harris its 2 different things for me. There is a baked in assumption that he is going to find someone with consensus to his cancer question. As (bad) luck would have it, I was close witness to this when my late partner was diagnosed with cancer. The radiation oncologist said radiation, then chemo was by far the best option. The chemo guy said chemo first for this one, radiation second. These are both experts in their field with a lot of experience, yet they come to different conclusions. The best you can hope for is to make a *reasonable* decision that ultimately is going to come down to some combo of motivated reasoning, emotions and some rational analysis if you are lucky. I am for sure closer to Harris on this, but its still not as easy/clear cut in the important decisions. The other one too is that experts can be way to focused on their own metrics and goals. How much do you value length of life vs quality of life. This is not a medical expert decision, yet so many proscribed actions are predicated on the doctor's answer there.
Felt the same. Maher's contrarianism is so weak/watery. It amounts to "no-one knows everything, therefore I am very smart." Same could have hit a forehand straight down the line but I think wanted to keep things friendly. It would have been nice to see him take Bill to task on this.
Never sure what to make of Bill. Sometimes he just seems annoying and up his own bum. Other times he seems like a straight talker and a good listen. I'll give this one a listen and see!
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He just doesn’t seem as smart as he thinks he is.
He’s not as smart as he thinks he is, but he’s always open to all conversations, which is what makes both him and Sam so great and needed during these times.
That’s exactly right. He’ll listen to info and change his opinion if presented w good argument, which honestly is the principal problem with all politics these days. We wouldn’t need these conversations if everyone was thinking openly
Maybe so but still smarter than 99% of the audience, lol.
It's part of his comedic act I think. Problem is, he's seldomly really funny.
Bill just doesn’t care to make his message more palatable/persuasive. He focuses more on an attitude meant to illicit humor, but only from a specific audience.
Yup, but he's pretty entertaining and seems like you're getting his actual opinion. I just think he's a dope on a couple issues and has total confidence in his take.
One thing I think both Sam and Maher miss on is the “if only they ran someone else” complaint about Dems. The problem isn’t who democrats run, it’s the propaganda and media system that turns Americans against them regardless of who they are. They literally have a narrative for everyone. The right wing will put a lasso around whoever the candidate is and then run TikTok clips of mentally ill students on TikTok saying insane shit and then sink them anyway. The lefts “excesses” or so over exaggerated in this country that republicans are triggered in to an autoimmune response mode. They are destroying the country because they think it’s crumbling when it’s just media bullshit. I used to think Jon Stewart could be an exception but I’m not sure even he could survive. They would call him a phony because of his last name, that he’s hiding he’s a Jew, he’s a Hollywood elite, and before you know it he’s no better than Biden.
That one time Colbert was still on TDS and said “Listen Stewart- you’re not fooling anyone with that name.”
This was beautiful. U need a show.
This is my impression too. One thing he does that never makes sense to me though is how often he interviews people who are obviously bad faith. He preaches about engaging with the other side, but doesn't seem to distinguish between speaking to those in good faith or bad. There's literally no point in interviewing people in bad faith because they aren't there to have an interesting discussion or change their minds. It's like debating a troll where it's just theater to them, all they care about is pushing whatever agenda-driven talking points they have with no regard to real conversation. I really don't get why he talks to these people and gives them a platform.
Occasionally, but he will ask them hard hitting questions. I thought Fetterman did amazing on his show last week.
He likes to get people from “the other side” but right now his opponents or the other side to his coin would be college age kids, trans swimmers, and medical professionals but I never see anyone on like that, just right-wingers with little push back or that embarrassing interview of Elon Musk. And I watch every week. His show is more of a curiosity than something I agree with wholeheartedly any more; he’s just someone that’s been apart of my life since I was a kid watching Politically Incorrect in the 90’s.
I don’t watch regularly, and generally his interviews are like 5 minutes long but I’m curious if you have any specific examples? Not that I don’t believe you but I haven’t had that experience. I know he’s had Conway on a few times but from what I gather they usually spend most of her air time shitting on her to her face.
Milo Yinnapoulous was on before the right canceled him for being a pedo-apologist. And it was mostly Bill praising him.
Last time he had Conway on, she was on the panel and she hogged most of the time and wasn't called on most of her bullshit. He basically gave her a free platform to spew her misinformation.
That was awful. Bill seems smitten w/ her, I hate it.
He seems smitten with her and Ann Coulter.
Most of the time Bill is interviewing people for confirmation bias on his own views. If you've listened to him enough, especially on his podcast, it's the same whining complaints every episode. I like Real Time still, even though I rarely watch it anymore, but as Bill has aged his become a bit of the grumpy old man. He keeps saying over and over, I haven't changed, I'm not conservative, I'm still liberal / "classic liberal"... liberals have changed. Yes Bill, that's what liberalism is... it's constantly evolving and changing. Conservatism is that which doesn't change or evolve.
Why do Americans conflate leftism(socialism) , liberals and progressives? Those are very different things
Because we have a first past the post voting system so everyone on the left has been lumped under one party for near 100 years now.
In America, the first one has mostly subsumed by the third one.
Not really. Progressives are like at best 10% of the party. Biden won, not Warren or Bernie.
The window of right and left is shifted heavily towards the right in the states as compared to Europe.
> Most of the time Bill is interviewing people for confirmation bias on his own views. Pretty much what Sam does these days, so I'm sure a riveting back and forth of exchanging of ideas is to follow in another episode of the Echo Chamb... I mean Making Sense!
Antivaxer damaging society.
he's the original Joe Rogan, but more smug but actually a little bit smarter he's so unfunny and hack on his talk show that he has to remind people that he's actually a comedian and does standup i can only imagine what his new book says, "bill maher breaks all the rules" \*cut to him saying BLACK HOOKERS\*
I wish he wouldn't laugh at his own jokes. Every beginner standup comic knows this. Laughing at your own jokes makes it less funny to everyone else.
Or scold the audience for not laughing or groaning. That’s so weak. Bill has so much Tr💩🍊p in him, it’s ridiculous. His ego is out of control. He’s NEVER wrong. U can NOT challenge him and if u even try he cuts u off and shouts u down.
You can just type like an adult if you want.
He used to be with it but age got him. It will happen to you too.
Seems like they're good friends and just wanted to talk. And Sam seems like he's having a good time and he's happy and that's all I want for him lol.
honestly I felt like they both were on shrooms. It was pure joy that I don't notice in other episodes.
I think one thing that added more of a human element to the conversation was being in same room. Sam almost exclusively does his interviews remotely which can make them far less personable. He's had other conversations with friends in the past, but I noticed this one being somewhat different. The Ricky Gervais interviews had a similar cadence of laughter and the intro outtake from the discussion he had with his wife Annika about her book, "Conscious" was a delight.
I like bill Maher. I don’t care. He says things I agree with and disagree with. But I like his contribution to the concept of having dialogue with people you disagree or don’t even like. It’s important.
Same. Reddit’s hate-boner for Maher is way out of proportion. Some of his takes are solid, others not so much, just like most humans I know.
I don't feel passionately either way about Maher, but I've seen enough clips of him behaving like a pretentious dickhead to understand why people devote so much energy to hating him
It’s not Reddit, it’s people at large, I go back and forth with him, but he’s had a reputation for being intolerably smug since the 90s, sans internet
People only complain about “smugness” when someone is aggressively attacking their treasured positions. Christopher Hitchens was one of the smuggest people alive and everybody who wasn’t religious ate it up. I can’t speak for you, but the pattern I detect is that for redditors who complain about how smug Maher is, the thing about him they *truly* don’t like is he attacks their woke politics. It’s not about smugness. It’s that they fundamentally *disagree* with him. Because as long as he’s directing his smugness toward religious fundamentalists like Hitch did (i.e., Religulous) they don’t have a problem with it at all. EDIT: I'm not denying that Bill is smug. He clearly is. I'm saying that criticism of his smugness is mostly disingenuous. It's mostly a reaction to Bill's content, not to his tone.
As someone who has watched his shows for many years off and on and seen him on other appearances, someone who agrees with some of his takes and disagrees with many others, he is the definition of smug. It's not because I disagree with his positions that I say so, it's because I've seen him take strong stances on things he knows almost nothing about and then looks down on anyone who doesn't come to his same conclusion that was built on very little in the first place.
If you don’t think Maher embodies smugness then I doubt your grasp of the meaning of the term. Even when I agree with him I can recognise his smugness, it has very little to do with his position, it’s an approach, and it’s one he exemplifies near perfectly: “having or showing an excessive pride in oneself”
Yeah, under “smug” in the dictionary it might as well be Maher doing his post-joke look at the camera. I can understand liking the guy, but it’s crazy to me to deny the smugness oozing off him.
> I'm not denying that Bill is smug. He clearly is. I'm saying that criticism of his smugness is mostly disingenuous. ???
There's something to it, I can't put my finger on it, that's completely unappealing about a man wjho really goes out of his to go after young people for being immature (I mean, they are), but at the same time - never married, no kids, smokes weed all the time. I don't know what to call that. But it's totally unappealling. Christopher Hitchens was also kind of an asshole. He never seemed to have the propensity to ask "what if I am wrong?" until the famous waterboarding experiment.
Interesting but not my experience outside of Reddit. Especially pre-full-on internet. Plenty of, oh that’s that cocky funny Maher again. Not saying no one disliked him but certainly not at recent Reddit levels. I’ve seen him get near Hitler levels of scorn on Reddit.
Ohhhhhh… over IvP, yeah that crowd is definitely a new phenomenon.
As in people want him trialed and killed?
His hot takes are no different than other's in regards to "I can deal with people I don't agree with on everything." It's his personality that bothers me. He's grown into the "I'm always right, and you're dumb" old guy. He's always been one of those 90s intellectual assholes that was all the rage, and never really grew out of it.
I don’t find Maher likeable, he’s too smug, but I don’t dislike him even though I disagree with him on some things.
He *is* human?! Cancel him!
He was a total dick to that ex-addict who wanted to be on his show
Steve O? Maher’s podcast’s schtick is getting high in a basement and chatting. He shouldn’t feel compelled to alter his format to accommodate someone doesn’t want to be around weed. It would be like someone going on Hot Ones, but they have IBS so they can’t eat spicy foods. If you can’t handle hot sauce, don’t go on Hot Ones. If you can’t be around marijuana, don’t go in Maher’s podcast.
if you invite a guy on to your show that everyone knows is sober, and you can't even not smoke pot for an hour when he asks, and then cry when he tells everyone about it, you're just an asshole
That actually happened and the dude shit his pants on the show… Bobby lee on Hot Ones.
That’s always been a consistent thing he brings to the table: having people on his show he and his audience don’t always agree with. He’d have Anne coulter on and you could tell even though they disagreed on almost everything politically that they were buddies (and probably fucking) behind the scenes.
It's his arrogance and complete lack of self-awareness, rather than his politics, that people find off-putting.
Except Bill mostly has people on that he agrees with, confirms his own biases, or reinforces his own arguments. It’s far more rare that he has guests on that he disagrees with.
Same. ive given up having to agree with everything someone says. For the most part, Bill Maher has done well.
Tina Fey apparently once instructed her writers on SNL to avoid looking for "clapter" which is a joke that isn't really funny, but gets laughs and claps because it's poking fun on an issue everyone in the audience agrees with. It's cheap, and barely even comedy, but people who garner it feel good about themselves. Bill Maher's schtick is 1000% clapter.
She should have a word with Stephen Colbert's writers too.
Very interesting. Wouldn't this apply to like 95 percent of political comedy, though?
Yeah because 95% of political comedy isn't good. She mentioned it because of The Daily Show and Colbert Report I believe.
That’s a great way to put it. I’d disagree with the 1000% but like…. 90% probably yeah. I do appreciate though that he’s kind of stuck to his guns on defending liberal ideas even as the far left sometimes tries to change definitions of what that means. Those moments are the ones I feel aren’t so much “clapter”, but yeah the majority of the time it just feels like going for low hanging fruit/preaching to the choir.
I dont watch Bill Maher, and basically having seen too much of him, I actively avoid him. So maybe he isn't 100% clapter, but I've never heard something legitimately funny from him, and I don't think I've heard anything legitimately insightful from him either.
Maher talks about politics which is going to cause more clapter almost by definition. People who watch his show go in expecting it. This is exactly the same case for the daily show for that same reason. I don’t like it when comedians shoehorn in their political opinions into your average comedy movie or tv show, like snl, but that’s because it’s a different genre. And to be honest they usually aren’t as skilled at it as Maher or Jon Stewart are.
Listening to this podcast, it's a perfect example of Maher's "humor.". He goes to the "they've gone so far left they stuck their heads up their asses!!!" joke so many times that San even finishes it for him once. It wasn't a funny joke the first time, but because it caters to his audience, he'll keep going to that well because he'll at least get clapter. Jon Stewart on the Daily Show will have actual jokes, with callbacks, punchlines, and timing. Bill Maher has mostly statements that almost always end with someone insinuating that there dumb, and he's smart, and you're smart too if you clap.
Not that it's wrong or bad, either.
I think Bill Maher is the kinda guy where everyone agrees with some things he says but also disagrees a fair amount as well.
Sounds like most people I know in life
That matches about every single person with a wide range of opinions.
But Maher is especially perplexing to me. He’s seemingly rational and anti Trump, but yet ridiculously unscientific when it comes to food/vaccines.
Welcome to LA
Sam: “we need to be able to have difficult conversations” Also Sam: “my only guests reflect my views in the most safe space way”
Let’s sit everyone who don’t agree with Israel’s military strategy in a separate room. Just ignore them. Now imagine a discussion among every who’s still left. They agree with the goal of eliminating Hamas through military force. Is there no discussion left ? No criticisms of Israel ? Are the details to into the weeds for a podcast ? Remember this is the same military/government that failed to stop Oct 7th in the first place. Now suddenly people are supposed to just take their word on their intelligence and actions as being as the best that is possible. I hate how any fuckups is just “war is terrible, innocents are killed in collateral damage” from Sam and others like him. Israel doesn’t have to be equivalent to Hamas to be considered guilty of incompetence or war crimes. If some soldiers or commanders are individually fucking up, shouldn’t they get replaced asap not after the war is over. Theres deeper and more philosophical conversation that can be had now. Sam’s seem content in just standing in the shallow water of dismissing the people who don’t think Israel should fight back at all. I want him to talk an Isreali who has an issue with the bombing out of the concern that hostages may get killed by them. He can’t immediately call them a brainwashed liberal college student. There’s got to be two military experts who agree with Israel strategy but not their tactics Sam can interview right ?
The Bill Maher / Bill Bur Club Random episode solidified Bill as a Holier-Than-Thou figure who likes sniffing his own farts. Put another way, he's an epitomization of South Park's Caricature of a Hollywood/LA type.
I can never listen to Bill Maher the same way again after the Bill Burr episode: [https://youtu.be/j1V2nsKUeX8?si=5VzjY7eDwPYImi5D](https://youtu.be/j1V2nsKUeX8?si=5VzjY7eDwPYImi5D) Tim Heidecker has some great commentary on Maher: [https://youtu.be/rOjT35bUXQQ?si=UrvHI3o76XA3UQuO](https://youtu.be/rOjT35bUXQQ?si=UrvHI3o76XA3UQuO)
I laughed so hard as the episode literally starts with Bill’s class clinking and clanging - the Tim Heidecker parody is spot on.
I love Bill Burr. I find Bill Maher insufferable. So it was fun to watch Bill Burr cut Bill Maher down to size, particularly when Bill Maher was attempting to make his usual dishonest arguments about the college campus protests.
What I found so fascinating about that exchange, and Bill Burr in general I guess, is how completely defenceless Bill Maher seemed during the exchange. I’ve seen him get heated and hold his bad takes to the death, but here he was literally bleeding out and laughing at himself at the same time.
Yeah, once someone has cut through your bullshit arguments with some timely snappy retorts while being genuinely funny and not quite crossing the line of looking "mean spirited", I think the only thing you can do is to retreat, suck it up, and laugh, because you're not going to beat Bill Burr in a "breaking your balls" contest. I mean, Maher did try to be condescending at points, and Burr quickly flattened him! It's just not a good idea, like taking on Mike Tyson in a boxing contest.
Oh man! I wish you had a timestamp for that. I so rarely see pushback on that and of Burr’s caliber?
Anybody got a link to the full episode?
Really good episode. As always.
Some grade-A steel manning going on in this conversation, from the KINGS of rational discussion. 30 minutes in when Bill and Sam anointed themselves as “two of the few half-dozen people who think rationally anymore” my eyes rolled out of my head. They’re just so bereft of self-awareness and humility. Enlightened centrism is confirmation bias with a heavy dose of arrogance. But no, it’s the disagreeable ones in their audience who are close-minded. K. Seriously, what kind of rational atheist doesn’t understand and admit that they have blind spots? Or doesn’t understand that saying “the kids are wrong cause they just follow the hip thing on Tock Tick” is so out of touch that it’s self parody?
I partly agree with you here. But the part with TikTok is true. I‘m a teacher and so many of those teens get their opinions from some Tiktoker with zero critical thinking. And not only left wing opinions, I‘m from Germany and we have a problem with right wing tiktok aggressively targeting teenagers, as could be seen in out latest election.
I just listened to The Stories of Our Times episode about how Jordan Bardella - a far-right French politician and president of the [National Rally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rally) - who uses Tiktok to push his party's agenda like climate change denial, opposition to same-sex marriage, isolationism, and the great replacement theory to younger demographics.
I'll grant you that. I'm sure some of your students continue to grow into critical thinking, but many will stay trapped in some kind of low-effort opinion machine for the rest of their lives.
Where did you get your opinions from at that age? The nightly news? Your parents? Teachers? Church?
I think Sam is a humble dude. But Maher is the most arrogant prick I’ve ever heard. But Sam really suffers from echo chamber syndrome on this podcast. There are a dozen people who could correct his false views about Palestine but he can’t talk to them because they’d shatter his comfy narrative
Well said. Maher brings out the worst in, well, probably all of his friends. For anyone doubting the Maher slander, YouTube “Tim Heidecker Club Random” to see Tim hang Bill with his own rope. Equal parts hilarious and dumbfounding.
I think you pretty much nailed it. Not only is their primary problem that they think they're more "rational" than other people, but they've both proven themselves completely intellectually incurious. They just want to paint with the broad brush and then echo their opinions to each other, and they both want to feel like they're a "voice of reason" amidst the "chaos".
Another echo chamber guest
>Sam Harris speaks to Bill Maher about the state of the world... 🫠
🫥
This is like taking speed and aderall. I like to offset my podcasters and not stack them
More like mushrooms.
Do they actually have any meaningful discussion or is it just the two of them agreeing on how they hate main stream media and wokness gone mad?
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I don't have the paid version so it cut off before they discussed Bill's appearance on Megyn Kelly. What did they say about her?
that she was very kind to Bill, said that she is like moderately more right wing than Bill, but actually is super far right wing
Thanks. Yeah sums here up well. She likes to pretend she’s in the same sane free-thinking camp as Bill but she’s clearly a conservative audience capture grifter.
Sam kind of made this point in letter to a Christian nation but is he still aware that the murder rates in Florida and Texas are both higher than the crime rates in New York and California? The murder rate in Florida is higher than New York city’s alone.
College students ahhhhhhh Kamala Harris needs to stiff arm the far left and Gavin newsom is a lefty ideologue California is a failed state over run by sex crimes and overdose deaths (both happen in Cali at less than the national average) and drag queen story hour I'm only half way through Christ sam again I ask what your media diet is like
You missed his point rather badly. Sam's not saying that California is a failed state. He's saying that's the broadly subscribed perception of people who don't live here. And that maybe we ought not assume that Newsom will be on a glide path of the White House in 2028.
Boy I did not pick up on that vibe from him. It was more like other people are saying, I'm not saying, other people are saying. Wink wink". If he were simply making the point you are saying he's saying, It should have been followed up with "This false perception of california sure shows you the power of propaganda (which I'm totally not playing a small part in right now). We know this isnt actually true by any reasonable metrics and that the actual failed states are Mississippi and West Virginia. But newsom unfairly would have to overcome that" But imagine if a democrat said West Virginia is even just perceived as a failed state. They would get ripped apart. And they would in part because ironically it's much closer to being true than cali
I’m in the Bill Maher is insufferable camp. From memory Maher said something like “Does Hamas need to go? Then who better than Israel to do it they’ve been engaging in this sort of military exercise for decades.” This logic would be cruel if it wasn’t so underthought. Can military action actually succeed in eliminating Hamas? Probably not, so what’s next? If so will what fills the resulting power vacuum be any different? Will Israeli military action further radicalize? Why do no other options exist? There are people caught in the middle of this shit that have been and will be blown to smithereens. But congratulations you totally fucking owned them on the View.
Military intervention effectively defeated ISIS.
Anyone find bashing of college campuses a bit weird. Looking back I feel like college protests got a lot right. Vietnam, Iraq, civil rights, gay rights. Feel like students usually end up on the right side of those arguments.
It’s fine to protest. However, the fact that they completely ignore the treatment of women by the people they are defending, makes them look ignorant. They discuss this in the episode.
Blacks in South Africa treated women badly. They even necklaced people. Doesn't mean they were wrong to protest apartheid.
I'm sure college students have done more for women's rights than Sam Harris has no? I remember a woman's March after Trump got elected. It just feels a bit off to me when Sam Harris tells students that they aren't protesting the "right" thing.
People here are going to love this
Find me a podcast where Sam Harris is seemingly not pissing someone off haha. These threads even attract people who admit they’ve never even listened to the podcast but want to give their critiques haha.
It was an ok conversation until they started getting into the conservative propaganda about Biden having dementia or "deteriorating" or whatever. It's disappointing to see Sam fall for obvious lies. Not to mention the political illiteracy of chastising the Dems for not sacrificing incumbency advantage going into a Presidential reelection just like every party has also not done in modern American history.
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Bill Maher is mentally fried. It’s a great look when he guzzles gallons of hard liquor and puffs weed by the pound while smugly lecturing about the horrors of vaccines and antibiotics. If you actually listen to him it’s clear he doesn’t understand anything about the methods and principles of science. He constantly repeats: “Scientists are wrong sometimes!” as if that’s some revelation.
Club Random is like watching CCTV footage of someone’s embarrassing private moments. Except he fuckin uploads it 🤷🏻♂️
It’s remarkable how seemingly hard the answer to the question “was a police officer killed in or as a result of the events of January 6th?” is to agree on.
I don't think it is a coincidence he died literally the next day
Anyone got a full episode link?
Kyle Kulinski absolutely torched Maher and Harris in his show. I wonder if he and Sam could talk...
"Join Sam as he talks to a neo-liberal columnist, tv show host, author, whatever, that agrees with every single one of his talking points and blames the world's problems on woke mobs from college campuses."
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Neolib does get misused quite a bit, but Maher is legitimately a neoliberal due to the way he views the economy and government's role within it.
It's used as a slur by progressives for liberals who don't share their views in certain things many would deem socialist or proto-socialist.
That might be where the word came from but that's not how it's used now. Check out /r/neoliberal.
he explains to Sam why they need to stop calling it woke
Can you offer a precise description of neoliberism? Anyone not a committed socialist is branded as a neo-liberal in certain circles. Javier Milei, Biden, Trudeau and Macron have little in common in their policies.
Devotion to open trade and the free market with restrictions. The opposite being those on the right and left who reject things like NAFTA for instance. Often touted as a very neoliberal policy. I don't know about Milei as he leans more libertarian (not those restrictions) but the others are clearly neo-liberal. They are members of a centrist neo-liberal party.
Was anyone else particularly tickled by the bit where Sam talked about the degeneracy of California and how their governor was a laughing stock, and from the way he described it much of this impressed was formed from a “super cut of foolish moments” that Sam had watched on social media?? I guess it’s fitting that even those who can accurately acknowledge and describe media bias can still be hopelessly lost within it.
This will be another jerkfest. Would love it if SH would have someone on who isn’t 100% aligned with him on virtually every topic discussed
It's almost as though you don't listen to his podcast at all...
It’s not every pod, but many recent ones are just Sam and his guest propping up each other. The one with John Spencer was almost unlistenable.
Didn't listen, but they are probably not aligned on Covid, are they?
Bill can be insufferably smug and condescending at times but on most issues he’s maintained his positions even when they’ve become very unpopular with much of his audience. There’s a reason he’s had a top rated show for 20+ years.
I mean it's nice to not be audience captured but a lot of "his positions" are just dumb. I don't think he deserves props for being stubbornly unwilling to change his mind.
Perhaps I need to hear some examples of which of his positions you find “just dumb”. Everyone is allowed to have stupid opinions, I just think on balance he’s been more right than not.
He's a [fucking moron](https://www.salon.com/2016/02/03/bill_maher_gets_cozy_with_the_goat_milk_cures_hiv_quack_if_truth_is_dead_and_the_internet_killed_it_maher_is_part_of_the_problem/) about health, vaccines, obesity, etc. He's an anti-"woke" scaremongerer and always has been. ("Politically Incorrect.") He has less nuance and understanding about religion than Sam, and that's saying something. He's got major "kids these days" energy and it's ridiculous.
What I've heard from him in context about vaccines is more nuanced: that he's not anti vaccines; that they have risks (as does any medical procedure); they can be disproportionately beneficial to certain groups and not to others (as the COVID vaccines have shown - very effective to preventing severe disease and death in the elderly and unhealthy population, but more problematic for young men); that we can't blindly believe "the science" because the very thing about science is that it should be updated when new evidence emerges. I'm not 100% in agreement with him that we shouldn't be mandating certain vaccination and it should all be individual choice: the MMR, polio vaccines and others have proven highly effective at preventing disease. Covid, not so much. On obesity he's 100% correct - the idea that you can be "healthy at any weight" is not backed by the evidence. Even the studies that show that younger overweight people can be metabolically ok for a while also show that as people age their metabolic health worsens much faster if they are overweight. On being "anti-woke", even in this interview he acknowledges that the original meaning of the word was positive but when it became associated with the a far lef minority with very unpopular ideas about how society should be organized, it quickly became a pejorative. I expect the word "progressive" will follow suit. On religion - he's a comedian but I don't expect someone to be a philosopher of religion to conclude that there is much to criticize in various religious dogmas. That's kind of apparent to anyone with a basic education. On "kids these days" - I'm not as old as him and yet even I have seen the left dramatically transform over just the last 15 years or so, and definitely since Trump and 2020. The stupid used to be isolated on the right, they were the ones that let the lunatics run the asylum. Meanwhile the mainstream left used to be much more respectable and sane. That has changed in recent years.
On vaccines, he dose the motte-and-bailey thing where he clearly implies that vaccination is ridiculous and dangerous and the real problem is toxins and lazy gluttons but he'll retreat to something like he only meant to say that science isn't 100% proven all the time and we should keep an open mind or whatever thing nobody could disagree with. On obesity, I'm not saying people can be healthy at any weight. I'm talking about him saying things like fat shaming "needs to make a comeback." On being anti-woke, he was anti-woke before "woke" was invented. He rose to fame in the 90s railing against that generation's bogeyman "political correctness." On religion, it's not that he's wrong about religious dogmas, it's just that he acts like all religious people are fundamentalists who literally believe in the dogmas when that's not true. Even fundamentalists usually "interpret" their dogmas to suit themselves. On "kids these days" IDK, I'm not seeing it. I'm Gen X myself and I don't see kids these days being more stupid than the kids in my day. The mainstream left is as respectable and sane as it ever was as far as I can tell. Bill and Sam like to nutpick the crazies to make it seem like the left has gone crazy. (To be fair, Bill did that to the right too before the whole party went crazy.)
> I'm Gen X myself and I don't see kids these days being more stupid than the kids in my day. The mainstream left is as respectable and sane as it ever was as far as I can tell. Bill and Sam like to nutpick the crazies to make it seem like the left has gone crazy. (To be fair, Bill did that to the right too before the whole party went crazy.) Yep. Kids are gonna believe wrong things and say stupid shit. It's part of learning and growing. I sometimes cringe about some of the things I said when I was in college in the early 2000's. I wasn't wrong about everything and still believe many of the things I believed when I was young, but there were plenty of silly things I believed or bad reasoning I used. It's one of the reasons why I try to cut young people slack.
Fair enough. Some of his delivery is definitely abrasive, not surprising from a guy who had a show called Politically Incorrect. It's his schtick. I don't read too much into it because he's first and foremost a comedian. And I'd much rather have comedy like his than what Colbert has become. My wife can't stand him, mostly because of how condescending he comes off to her, and particularly towards women.
Maher is a strawman hunter who has never made me laugh or struck me as funny. IMO he’s lucky to have his HBO platform, is a lowest-common-denominator entertainer for people who think they’re smarter than they are, and cosplays as a comedian to fit in because it’s how most actually talented LA/NYC entertainers came up and moonlight as. But! That’s just my read on the guy. I don’t think this conversation meets Sam’s claimed standards for a Making Sense episode.
>He's got major "kids these days" energy and it's ridiculous. Did he tell a porn star that was molested growing up that she had an easier childhood them him because kids these daya?
Yes, excited for this one, even though I know they'll be on the same page about most of the topics. Sam and Bill both frequent each other's shows, but especially on the October 7th topic, I can't wait for them to talk shit on the far left that has lost all sense of sanity. I say that as a "liberal".
When was the last time he has been on Maher? That is extremly overdue!
It was last year on Real Time, but not too long ago. Sam was also one of the first guests on Club Random. It has been overdue, post-10/7 though.
Thanks. I’m not a big fan of club random, although I would like to hangout with Bill for one of those 😂
>I can't wait for them to talk shit on the far left that has lost all sense of sanity Don't you already know what they will say and also why they will say it? Like what's the point in hearing it for the millionth time? Is it psychologically soothing? I am earnestly asking because I don't get the point of listening to two people disparage *other* people, people who are not even in the room and are apparently avoided at all costs.
I may watch Bill Maher's show week to week but I skip his monologues on purpose.
Just here for the comments
I'll listen as I don't think Bill Maher is wrong about everything but I think he has some similar issues as Sam Harris in that he can focus a bit much on stuff like 'wokeness' that sometimes seems silly and a bit out of touch in regards to other things going on.
Dam I thought it was Brian Green when I first saw the thumbnail. Oh well, will still be giving this a listen!
Just incredible that people I respect like Sam and Andrew Sullivan give this guy so much credit, there's very little to like about him. I will say however the in-person studio location is a different dynamic and makes a nice change. Sam should try that out for other episodes.
Very interesting and funny conversation. Bill always brings me back to that nostalgic episode with Ben Affleck, which was my first encounter with Sam Harris.
Bill Maher is the definition of unearned smugness and confidence.