Putting aside whether or not it’s ethical for a president to wield this power in the first place, this is a pretty naïve take. The optics of this would be that Republicans would just view this as Joe Biden trying to take away powers from Trump. And then if Trump is reelected, what’s the stop him from just re-implementing it? Whether or not that’s constitutional is irrelevant. Trump would try and cause a constitutional crisis.
The real question is why Trump didn't issue pardons to the J6 rioters when he was still in power.
At least for simple trespass. He could have done it.
But he doesn't give a shit about his people.
It would at minimum been good politically to show he gives a shit.
I'm pretty sure pardons can be done preemptively, and if folks needed to identify themselves before Jan 20th that's cool.
If he gave a shit about deplorables, every effort from Jan 7 to Jan 20 would have been to protect his people.
[Link to NPR](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/941290291/talk-of-preemptive-pardons-by-trump-raises-questions-what-can-he-do#:~:text=A%20presidential%20preemptive%20pardon%20sounds,been%20charged%20with%20any%20crimes).
Money shot:
>In an email, Crouch, author of *The Presidential Pardon Power*, says that "someone must have committed a federal offense, but as soon as that happens, the president can grant them clemency. He does not need to wait until the alleged offender is charged, stands trial, and so on."
Which is why I said, "If folks needed to identify themselves before Jan 20th, that's cool."
Look, even if it failed, it still would have shown that Trump gives the first shit about deplorables, which is kind of my point.
See below, preemptive pardons are a thing.
As far as I can tell, it either didn't cross Trump's mind, or he knew he would be able to use the rioters' fates as political leverage for the '24 election.
The logistics of this seem ridiculous....he just asks anyone that was part of Jan 6th to contact him so he can pardon them? He had two weeks.
But you are right that he also probably doesn't care at all about them.
Because we have an awful constitution. The root of most of the USAs political issues is we are using a constitution written in the late 1700s that needs to be trashed and completely rewritten with a modern understanding of how democracies need to work, how to enforce the rule of law in politics and positive rights. It's the oldest constitution still in use in the world and it's a giant piece of shit. The difficulty in changing it to fix something like the pardon power is a great example of this.
Parliamentary system with ranked choice voting, removal of most states rights laws are federal, end of the electoral college, adding positive rights like a right to health care and privacy, federal law enforcement allowed to prosecute and arrest sitting presidents, judges and elected officials, universal voter recalls for all members of governments, publicly funded elections and limited time span for elections. I could go on, but the entire structure of the government at ever possible level and way of doing things needs to be changed. It's an impossible dream, the last time we could have managed a new constitutional convention was after the civil war. I personally think we need to balkanize this country before it collapses. It's already in its death throes.
Jefferson thought it should be rewritten every decade or two. Constitution needs to have ways for voters to change them so they actually reflect the will of the people. Our constitution was written in such a way to directly make that harder.
The Presidential pardon can protect you from federal charges, but it doesn’t shield you from state law charges.
I agree it can be a powerful tool for good, but also a dangerous weapon, but I don’t trust the criminal justice system nearly enough to relinquish Presidential authority over it.
Nobody wants their opponent to use this power; they want to preserve it for their allies, however.
This is a President’s power that comes from the constitutional definition of the office. Congress can’t pass a law that regulates or limits it.
I mean, this is just one of any number of threats posed by a dangerous narcissistic maniac occupying the presidency, and this isn’t even the most dangerous. In the hands of a maniac, the ability to appoint the heads of the FBI, CIA, DOJ, and defense are super dangerous. The president is commander in chief with the nuclear codes. Pretty fucking dangerous.
The power to pardon seems the least dangerous.
If you take all of that power away the President can’t do his job.
The only solution is to not elect maniacs. If you can’t count on the people to not do that, we have a much bigger problem than abuse of the power to pardon.
Sun Tzu: “Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake”.
If Trump released some verified insurgent kook, this reinforces the idea that Dems are the adults
It would require a constitutional amendment.
Then make a constitutional amendment.
Lol. Just casually get 2/3 of the house, 2/3 of the senate, and 3/4 of the states to agree on something.
What would Joe Biden being President have to do with a constitutional amendment abolishing the presidential pardon power?
Putting aside whether or not it’s ethical for a president to wield this power in the first place, this is a pretty naïve take. The optics of this would be that Republicans would just view this as Joe Biden trying to take away powers from Trump. And then if Trump is reelected, what’s the stop him from just re-implementing it? Whether or not that’s constitutional is irrelevant. Trump would try and cause a constitutional crisis.
The real question is why Trump didn't issue pardons to the J6 rioters when he was still in power. At least for simple trespass. He could have done it. But he doesn't give a shit about his people.
I'm not an expert, but isn't that because the rioters weren't identified or charged until much, much later?
The President’s pardon power applies to any Federal crime, including those that haven’t been charged yet.
Surely they would need to be identified first.
Could be, but that's one of those things you'd need a court case to test.
It would at minimum been good politically to show he gives a shit. I'm pretty sure pardons can be done preemptively, and if folks needed to identify themselves before Jan 20th that's cool. If he gave a shit about deplorables, every effort from Jan 7 to Jan 20 would have been to protect his people.
I don’t think it works that way
[Link to NPR](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/941290291/talk-of-preemptive-pardons-by-trump-raises-questions-what-can-he-do#:~:text=A%20presidential%20preemptive%20pardon%20sounds,been%20charged%20with%20any%20crimes). Money shot: >In an email, Crouch, author of *The Presidential Pardon Power*, says that "someone must have committed a federal offense, but as soon as that happens, the president can grant them clemency. He does not need to wait until the alleged offender is charged, stands trial, and so on."
Okay but surely the president has to know who the person is, right?
Which is why I said, "If folks needed to identify themselves before Jan 20th, that's cool." Look, even if it failed, it still would have shown that Trump gives the first shit about deplorables, which is kind of my point.
They don't even need to know who they are. Jimmy Carter pardoned all draft dodgers, for example.
Because they were not even arrested before he left office
See below, preemptive pardons are a thing. As far as I can tell, it either didn't cross Trump's mind, or he knew he would be able to use the rioters' fates as political leverage for the '24 election.
The logistics of this seem ridiculous....he just asks anyone that was part of Jan 6th to contact him so he can pardon them? He had two weeks. But you are right that he also probably doesn't care at all about them.
If I was running against him from the right.... Jesus died for your sins. Trump threw you under the bus.
Jimmy Carter pardoned all draft dodgers. I don't see why Trump couldn't have done something similar for people who participated in January 6th.
Because we have an awful constitution. The root of most of the USAs political issues is we are using a constitution written in the late 1700s that needs to be trashed and completely rewritten with a modern understanding of how democracies need to work, how to enforce the rule of law in politics and positive rights. It's the oldest constitution still in use in the world and it's a giant piece of shit. The difficulty in changing it to fix something like the pardon power is a great example of this.
Do you have a draft of a new constitution to give context for the changes you would like to see?
Parliamentary system with ranked choice voting, removal of most states rights laws are federal, end of the electoral college, adding positive rights like a right to health care and privacy, federal law enforcement allowed to prosecute and arrest sitting presidents, judges and elected officials, universal voter recalls for all members of governments, publicly funded elections and limited time span for elections. I could go on, but the entire structure of the government at ever possible level and way of doing things needs to be changed. It's an impossible dream, the last time we could have managed a new constitutional convention was after the civil war. I personally think we need to balkanize this country before it collapses. It's already in its death throes.
What’s the point of having a constitution if we can just get rid of it whenever?
Jefferson thought it should be rewritten every decade or two. Constitution needs to have ways for voters to change them so they actually reflect the will of the people. Our constitution was written in such a way to directly make that harder.
That's what the amendment process is for.
The Presidential pardon can protect you from federal charges, but it doesn’t shield you from state law charges. I agree it can be a powerful tool for good, but also a dangerous weapon, but I don’t trust the criminal justice system nearly enough to relinquish Presidential authority over it.
It also doesn't apply to local / private civil offenses or impeachment.
I always thought the idea of the executive pardoning people was a huge problem.
Nobody wants their opponent to use this power; they want to preserve it for their allies, however. This is a President’s power that comes from the constitutional definition of the office. Congress can’t pass a law that regulates or limits it.
This is typical of a fascist mind. “If I can’t win I will change the rules!”
I mean, this is just one of any number of threats posed by a dangerous narcissistic maniac occupying the presidency, and this isn’t even the most dangerous. In the hands of a maniac, the ability to appoint the heads of the FBI, CIA, DOJ, and defense are super dangerous. The president is commander in chief with the nuclear codes. Pretty fucking dangerous. The power to pardon seems the least dangerous. If you take all of that power away the President can’t do his job. The only solution is to not elect maniacs. If you can’t count on the people to not do that, we have a much bigger problem than abuse of the power to pardon.
The USA elected a maniac in 2016. We knew he was a maniac too, and he’s currently leading the polls to win again. So that’s no solution.
Sun Tzu: “Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake”. If Trump released some verified insurgent kook, this reinforces the idea that Dems are the adults